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Why "Me Too" Feels Like "Not You": Stop Fixing, Start Staying · The Virtual Couch

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Welcome to another episode of The Virtual Couch. I am your host,
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Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful
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habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father, four, and host of the Waking
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Up to Narcissim podcast as well.
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Follow me on social media platforms of your choice at TikTok at Virtual Couch,
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Instagram at virtual.couch, Facebook, Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family
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therapist, sub stack where there's a lot of content.
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It's the old fashioned way. You
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can read it. You don't even have to watch anything or listen to anything.
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And there are articles of all sorts of
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lengths and it's usually about the podcast that has
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come out that week or maybe some other things as well and that's substack.com
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slash the virtual couch i believe but i'm sure you can find it if you give it
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a good search and my magnetic marriage course the waiting period is now on you
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can go get on the wait list at tonyoverbay.com slash magnetic and we will probably
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talk a little bit more about that today some of the concepts that i'm going to get to eventually.
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Today is a fun topic. It is based on a little bit of an aha that I had at a
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men's retreat that I was participating in as a presenter with my good friend,
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Craig Para, who is founder of The Mindful Habit.
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When I talk about in my opening that I'm a mindful habit coach,
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that's where that comes from. He's an amazing person with his wife, Michelle.
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I was participating in this men's retreat and I was talking about four pillars
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of a connected conversation. I was talking about providing safety in the relationship.
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And there was a guy who, and at this point we were about two or three days in,
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I really appreciated and loved
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the guys that were there that were participating in the men's retreat.
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And that's important because of what he said. I really believe what he said
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wasn't done from a place of manipulation or emotional immaturity.
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He said that his wife had opened up to him about feeling overwhelmed.
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And she had talked about carrying a very large mental load.
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And as she was telling him this, he said he had this realization.
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He was very genuine as he was expressing this to myself and to the other group of men.
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He said, wait, I realize I also carry a big mental load as well.
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So right after she had expressed that, he told her that he also carried a big mental load.
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So he thought it was going to be this moment of connection. Hey,
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me too. And it turns out that we're in this together. And I did ask him with
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a little bit of humor already loaded.
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How'd that go? And then maybe not surprisingly, it did not go very well.
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It is tricky because I see this often and I think it's safe to say on a daily basis.
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Now, to be fair, from his side, he wasn't even thinking about his own experience
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of carrying a mental load because he hadn't really thought of it that way until she brought it up.
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And she was coming to him wanting to be understood.
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And then the very words that she spoke in hopes of having him understand her,
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it's this emotional bid that she was making.
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She's handing her heart out to him. It was this moment, I'm fairly confident,
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without even meeting with her, where she wanted to be known.
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She wanted to be understood. she was choosing him to be the one to know her.
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But then it was those very words that she uttered that when taken in through his ear holes,
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traveling instantaneously to his brain, generated a flurry of electrical activity
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that then caused him to utter some mouth sounds,
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these combination of words that give him the language for something that he
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had not been able to name before.
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He realized in that very moment that he too was carrying a very big mental load.
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Now, to be fair, most likely he also had a very brief moment of suppressing
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an inappropriate joke around the words mental load because he is a male.
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But one could argue that his intent was genuine and he really had not identified
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what it was that he had felt often until she was expressing her feelings, until she went first.
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And in talking to this guy, I would put my 20 plus years of couples therapy
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on the table to say that he was genuinely confused as he shared the story as
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to why she didn't immediately respond to him with.
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Hang on, I know that I just poured my heart out to you in an attempt to be heard,
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but I'll be darned if the fact that you just immediately repeated to me the
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exact same words that I just said that I was feeling.
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Now I would really appreciate you taking the floor and I would actually love
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to hear you wax philosophic for, I don't know, maybe the next half an hour of what this means to you.
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And if you don't mind, I think I would actually now love for you to bring up
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a lot of things from the past that you think I haven't done well,
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because I think this exchange we're having right now, I think this might be
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the key to me praising you more, initiating intimacy more.
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Honestly, I actually think I'd like to hear some more of your high school football
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stories while we're at it.
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No, she actually did not feel connected in that moment.
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One could actually say that the impact on her was the exact opposite,
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completely different, because to her, she had just opened a door.
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She was being vulnerable. And before she even got to feel heard,
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the conversation was already about him.
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So even though he meant connection, what she experienced was dismissal.
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And it's that gap between intent and impact.
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That's where so much of the damage happens in relationships.
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And sometimes what's happening in that gap is something so subtle, but it's very powerful.
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And it isn't necessarily someone being cruel. It isn't even necessarily someone
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trying to dominate or assert their power.
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It's not even always defensiveness, but it's this moment where somebody opens
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up and before their share has fully had a chance to stick, to land,
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the conversation shifts, the momentum changes, the focus moves.
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It's almost like the original share gets edged out of its own space.
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Now, we're going to come back to that dynamic later because I actually had a
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couple name it in a way that I think is perfect.
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But for now, just hold on to that idea that sometimes the damage isn't what was said.
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It's what that person didn't even get to finish when they were really trying
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to be heard and to be understood.
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And I want to be super honest. If this was my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
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I know that there's a version of this that I call the attack surface.
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Because to the emotionally immature or the person with
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narcissistic traits states tendencies up to full-blown narcissistic
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personality disorder i like to say that they just
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simply need another person to interact with to essentially know
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that they exist and so what that looks like in real
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time is that anytime and i'm being pretty intentional about the all or nothing
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vibe of that statement anytime anytime the more pathologically kind spouse and
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again if you're not familiar with that concept or that term or you're not waking
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up to narcissism listener that I find that often it is that pathologically kind person.
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Kindness is a wonderful thing. It becomes pathological when it's used against
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them, when it's used to their detriment.
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And that pathologically kind
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partner often finds themselves with the more emotionally immature partner.
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The author Ross Rosenberg calls that combination the human magnet syndrome.
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And it's breakup resistant and it's breakup resistant.
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And I'm talking about the negative version of that because that pathologically
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kind person will most likely continue to offer up themselves,
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self-sacrifice for the good of the relationship. And then the emotionally immature
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person doesn't even know what they don't know.
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And so they often think that the relationship is good because their pathologically
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kind partner has sacrificed their opinion, their behavior, their thoughts,
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their feelings, their emotions.
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And they think that they're doing that for the good of the relationship,
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but it just furthers and deepens this dynamic.
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This pursue or withdraw, this, okay, I'll deal with it later,
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this big old can kicking down the road.
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But that pathologically kind spouse will then offer up their thoughts,
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their opinions, their questions, their concerns, and then it becomes a surface
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that can be attacked with the goal.
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And I do think most of it is subconscious
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of the emotionally immature narcissistic partner to now put that.
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Person in the one down position and give them the one up position.
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So if that pathologically kind spouse says, you know, I'm thinking about getting
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a new pair of running shoes.
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The answer isn't, oh, what kind are you thinking about getting?
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Or how do you even determine when you swap out your shoes? Because I'm genuinely curious.
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I know for me, it's about every 500 miles. I read that in a runner's world magazine,
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but how about you? Or are you thinking about signing up for a new race?
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Is that why you want a new pair of shoes? Because you want to have them broken
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in? You noticing any aches or pains that might indicate maybe uneven wear and tear on your shoes?
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As a matter of fact, I love that you're sharing this with me because I want to know you.
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No, that's the healthy version. In the world of the emotionally immature slash
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narcissistic partner, the answers would be more like, oh, that must be nice
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to get a new pair of shoes whenever the heck you want.
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Wish I could be that frivolous and spend our money like that.
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Or if the person happens to be the primary breadwinner, okay,
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I guess that's okay, but a little appreciation would be nice.
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Or I don't see you exercising regularly and I can't promise that I'm actually
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not going to be mad if I don't see you doing that, if you're going to spend my money on your shoes.
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Or, okay, if you're going to do that, then I think you owe me two back rubs
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and you have to initiate intimacy for a month.
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Or there could also be what a client of mine once called, and I think it's so
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apropos of being nothing, where maybe he just doesn't say anything at all.
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And she just wanted connection of any kind, to which then she might even follow
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up and say, I don't know if you, did you hear me say that? And then he said, yeah, I heard you.
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Do you need a round of applause or do you want me to ring a little bell?
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Do you need a trophy or something? What do you want me to say?
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Unfortunately, I deal with a lot of those types of responses and couples therapy
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as well. So back to this example.
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Now, I had a couple in my office just a week or so ago, and I was sharing this
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experience about the men's retreat with them, and we were having a really,
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really good conversation.
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So I was sharing with the couple that I wasn't saying that the guy needed to
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necessarily shove his thoughts down or his emotions or his reactions.
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They didn't need to be suppressed necessarily.
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But I said that I was noticing that if something comes up for you when your
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partner is sharing, that is real.
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And I understand that can be a place coming from good intentions that matters.
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But maybe it's more about the order or structure of the conversation or more
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about the sequencing of the conversation. It's about when you bring up your
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piece, because in that moment, she was the one being vulnerable.
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She was the one who opened the door. She had the talking stick,
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the floor, so to speak, and the floor was not yet open for questions.
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What she needed first was space, runway to share.
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And hopefully some genuine curiosity about her experience, some emotional safety.
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So what I suggested to the guys at the retreat was, you know,
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if your partner opens up and it does trigger something in you,
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some recognition, some, oh my gosh, I feel that too.
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That's a good thing. Make a mental note of it.
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Hold it gently. But that moment isn't yours yet.
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Stay with your partner first. Even something as simple as, man,
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tell me more about that. Even while internally you're thinking, I feel this too.
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I need to say this. But if I can stay with that, tell me more changes the whole
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trajectory of that moment and know that you can come back to your experience
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later and it will most likely even land better because your partner will not
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have the capacity to hear you once they felt heard themselves.
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And if you immediately are saying, well, yeah, but yeah, but I might forget.
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That's absolutely true. And I would like to encourage a little bit of a reframe.
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The relationship is more of the long game. Not if I don't say this right now,
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then the world will stop spinning immediately.
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We will all die and no offense, but whatever it is that just came up in your
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mind when you heard your partner say something for the first time is also not
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going to be the combination of words and mouth noises and facial expressions
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that will erase decades of marital strife in an instant right now.
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So your work is to stay engaged and present in the conversation as the listener.
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So then I went on to share with this couple that what's been pretty wild is
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since that retreat, I do a lot of couple sessions each week and I keep seeing
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this exact dynamic play out.
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And I know it's most likely a little confirmation bias, but it almost seems
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like I've found the origin story of so many reactive moments in relationships
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where somebody tries to share something and immediately feel shut down.
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So over time, they stop trying to be heard.
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Somebody tries to open up and their partner's brain immediately goes,
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oh, that reminds me of something that I'm feeling too.
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And then the share gets hijacked before it even lands. I mentioned to them that
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I'm trying to come up with a name for it.
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And I went and pulled the transcript from the session. The husband then said
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immediately, stealing thunder.
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That's what it is, right? That person is thunder stealing. They're stealing your thunder.
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And then I said, oh, I love that. Stealing thunder. That is,
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that's exactly what it feels like, isn't it?
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Like you're mid-share, you're putting something out there and then somebody
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rolls in with their version before yours even gets to land. And I said,
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yeah, I think that's the name.
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Thank you. I've been trying to find the right words for it and that nails it.
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And then the guy said, yeah, thunder stealing. It really does make sense because
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they're starting to steal your momentum. They're starting to.
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And then the wife cut in and she said, I don't necessarily think it's stealing
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thunder. I don't think so.
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But I mean, I could see why it could come across that way, like you were saying.
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But what I think, and then as she was trying to think of what to say next, there was a pause.
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And then the guy said, oh, but...
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So that's actually it. Like she literally just stole my thunder right there.
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I named the thing and she just, and then I cut in and said, wait, hold on.
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Yeah, that happened in real time. And then I, now that you'll know,
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I don't just say these things on the podcast. I said, isn't that meta?
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Is that what the kids would say?
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And then they both had a little chuckle.
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And then I looked over at the wife and I said, hey, so I would love to just
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take a second and name what just happened.
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And I want to be real careful because I worry that you may think that I am telling
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you that you've done something wrong. But here's what I saw.
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Your husband offered a name for this concept, stealing thunder.
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And then pretty much immediately you had a reaction, a thought.
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And so what he offered up, it was somewhat negated, reframed.
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The edges got taken off before I had a chance to just sit there for a second.
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And I don't think you were trying to dismiss him.
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My guess is your brain just did what brains do. You heard the concept and it
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immediately caused you to think of something and And you started refining it,
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making sense of it in your own way.
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But the effect on your husband's end is that the thing that he just named got
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adjusted before it got to essentially breathe, which communicating to him that
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what he shared was wrong and it wasn't even worth further exploration.
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And that's the whole phenomenon that we're talking about playing out right here
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in front of us in real time.
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And thank goodness she had a little bit of a laugh and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.
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And I, oh no, I said, honestly, this is kind of a gift because we didn't have
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to construct an example or pull something from our memory. We just watched it.
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That's rare. And it means, I think that you're both going to be able to spot
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this so much more easily now because you just saw it. You felt it.
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You didn't just hear about it. And then the husband said, and honestly,
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yeah, Stealing Thunder, I think is the right name for it because I've been in
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that position over and over. and then I did the therapist standard. Tell me more about that.
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And he said, the vast majority of the time, it seems like when I bring something
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up, a grievance, something that's bothering me, by the end of the time I'm expressing
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it, I'm actually the one that's apologizing.
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And I said, okay, hold on, say that again. So you come in with something that's bothering you.
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And by the end of the conversation, you think that you're the one saying, sorry.
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And he said, yeah, yeah, because it goes like this. I say, it's how I feel.
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And it gets met with, yeah, me too. Actually, let me tell you why mine is worse.
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And then he said, and suddenly I'm defending myself instead of being heard.
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And then I eventually just fold and apologize just to make it stop,
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to move on through the conversation.
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So I pointed out, that's a pretty significant pattern. And I want to make sure
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that that gets the space, the acknowledgement that it deserves,
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because it sounds like what you're describing, you start out as the person with
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the grievance, and by the end, you become the person managing your partner's
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reaction to your grievance. That's a big shift.
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And I'm wondering if over time, if that teaches the brain that bringing things
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up isn't safe and that it's going to cost you more than it's worth.
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I said, we'll come back to this. And he said, yeah, that's what's happening.
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So I turned to the wife and I said, hey, I would love to check in with you.
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I'm curious when I pointed that out, the stealing thunder about stealing thunder
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moment, what did that feel like? Did you think that I was criticizing you?
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And she said, no, honestly, maybe a little bit. Maybe I felt that a little bit,
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but I also, I recognized it as well. I actually.
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I think I saw it while it was happening, but I was already too far down that
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path. And I said, man, I appreciate you telling me that.
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And then I turned to the husband. And again, I've worked with him for a while.
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So there's a lot of potential for humor here.
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And I said, are you buying that? Are you picking up what she's putting down?
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And he's like, I am. I really am.
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And then I made sure that they knew that that was, for the record,
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that was me being hilarious because that was not very differentiated of me saying,
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really? Are you sure? You're really sure?
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And then we just had a laugh. that concept of stealing thunder's
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origin story was then stole in the moment
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so what i shared with them was moving forward i would love that
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when one of them shares something a feeling a frustration whatever that
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is the other one feels that me too impulse rise up or that urge to refine and
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adjust what your partner just said see if you can catch it just notice that
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you can name it internally there's the thunder grab and then try to stay curious
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about what your partner's saying jump back into the present moment for even
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just a little bit longer before you try to bring your piece in.
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Your experience still matters and it's going to get airtime.
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We have to trust that, but let theirs land first.
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And they both said that sounded good because it really felt like they were well
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positioned to work with that because they demonstrated they could see it in the very moment.
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So here's what I find fascinating to me about that whole dynamic,
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that neither one of them in the room wasn't trying to hurt the other person.
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The husband wasn't trying to dominate.
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The wife wasn't really trying to make him feel bad or dismiss him.
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And just like the guy at the men's retreat
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wasn't trying to hijack his wife's moment and in
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fact in these examples the intent was connection but the impact was disconnection
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the gap between intent and impact i think is where so many relationships start
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to erode because what looks like me too on the inside lands more like not you on the outside but.
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Here's where that gets even trickier, because most of the time when this happens,
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the person who just derailed the moment would swear under oath that they were being empathetic.
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No, I was relating. I was trying to connect.
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I want to share my emotions too. I was showing her that I understood.
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But what often happens instead isn't empathy.
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And for a while, I was calling it drive-by empathy or check-the-box empathy.
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And if you've ever been on the receiving end of it, I think you know exactly what I mean.
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Let me paint another picture. Imagine your partner comes home and they are overwhelmed.
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They are raw. They're vulnerable.
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And instead of listening, they say, okay, before we talk, I really need you
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to do something for me. Can you follow me into the kitchen?
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And can you just, can you go put your hand on the hot stove? Let me turn it on first.
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You hesitate. And they're like, seriously, if you really want to try to understand
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me, if you want to empathize with me, you need to try to feel what I'm feeling.
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So I would really appreciate it if you could go touch the stove.
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So you're thinking I okay, I don't know what I don't know seems kind of crazy So let's say you do.
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And, but you just tap it real fast and then you jerk your hand back.
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Okay, it's hot. I get it. Burns. We good. And now your hand hurts too.
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That's almost what drive by empathy can feel like. It's not staying.
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It's not understanding.
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It's just a brief sample of someone's pain and then announcing,
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okay, no, I get it. I've experienced it.
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Can we move on? And the person who is vulnerable, they're still standing there alone.
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And then the more you sit with that, your hand hurts and you're wondering why
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on earth did I have to do that?
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Was that some sort of, I don't know, sadistic ritual to prove my love?
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It feels more like the start of some bad Netflix movie, not a way to connect.
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And I think sometimes that's what empathy turns into, not connection,
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but shared suffering more with now a side of resentment. Because I often hear
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stories from people that are genuinely trying to empathize with their partner.
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We start from a place of most likely they never saw that modeled in their childhood.
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They're desperately trying to understand this concept because they may hear
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it often. Well, you have no empathy. And this is why I think your empathy isn't landing.
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And I can maybe even hear people say, hang on though. I think I've got it down.
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I am empathetic. I literally just told my partner that I understood, period.
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I said the thing, I checked the box. So why are they still upset?
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And if that's you or you're anywhere in that ballpark, this episode is for you.
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Because what I have learned now sitting across couples for decades,
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I can say now, and well over 1,500 couples, most people do at some point think
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they're being empathetic.
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When they're actually doing something else entirely.
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Something that feels like empathy on the inside, but lands more like a dismissal on the outside.
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And that gap between what you're doing and what your partner actually experiences,
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that's where the relationship pain lives.
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So let's take a step back. Let's start at the very beginning.
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Apparently a very good place to start.
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And I'll be honest, there was a time I genuinely confused empathy and sympathy.
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And it was absolutely a time when I was a practicing therapist.
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It's very brave of me, very vulnerable to say that. And I often find it very
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courageous when adult humans in my office will have the courage to say,
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I actually don't even really understand the difference.
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But simply stated, sympathy, I hate that. That sounds difficult. That must be hard.
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Empathy, help me understand what that's like for you. So an example of sympathy,
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your partner says, man, I bombed my presentation.
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The sympathetic response, oh man, that sounds rough. I'm sure you'll do better next time.
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And even that, as good as it sounds, there's a deep dive that is needed.
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Oh, man, that's rough. That is sympathetic.
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I put the next sentence in there because I think it's one of these things that
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can naturally flow when somebody thinks that they are being empathetic,
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but they're really being sympathetic and so, oh man, that's rough.
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You'll do better next time.
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Now, technically, again, sympathetic checks the box. The words are kind.
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The tone might be warm. You're making the right mouth sounds.
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And I use that phrase very intentionally, mouth sounds, because from a co-regulation
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standpoint, tone matters.
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We know from interpersonal neurobiology, this work of Dan Siegel,
22:25
that the nervous system responds to vocal warmth, to the rise and fall of someone's voice.
22:31
So yeah, those sounds can be registered as kind.
22:34
But here's the part we don't talk about. Sometimes sympathy isn't about them at all. It's about us.
22:40
When I say you'll do better next time, there's a subtle relief that happens
22:44
inside of me. I have moved away from discomfort. I have wrapped it up. I have made it hopeful.
22:48
I have tied it in a bow. And honestly, I feel good.
22:50
But imagine you're the one who just bombed the presentation.
22:53
You've been replaying the game film in your head a dozen times over,
22:56
you're dissecting every slide, every awkward pause, you're insinuating things, making up stories.
23:01
You're wondering if your ideas now, maybe they aren't even good enough.
23:04
And the response you'll get is, hey, champ, you'll do better next time.
23:09
Now you're in this weird position where you now almost feel required to make
23:12
the correct returned mouth sounds of, okay, thanks. I appreciate that.
23:18
I'm sure I will. But inside you feel completely unseen.
23:22
It's almost like the other person has this magical superpower that all you have
23:27
to do is tell them your problem and they wave a wand and say, it'll be okay.
23:32
And suddenly your entire breakdown of your own game film, it was absolutely
23:35
unnecessary. Apparently you just needed their optimism.
23:39
Oh, my bad. I did not realize the solution was simply believing harder.
23:43
And here's the dangerous part that if you don't do better next time, then what?
23:47
Now it subtly becomes your fault because maybe you didn't listen.
23:51
Maybe you didn't believe in yourself.
23:52
Maybe you didn't try hard enough. So why would you open up again?
23:57
Why risk vulnerability if the outcome is either dismissal or the silent pressure?
24:01
Now let's talk about empathy. Oh man, you bombed it.
24:06
Bombed it how? Tell me about that. What was that like? What did that feel like?
24:09
Take me through it. I want to understand. I want to hear it all.
24:13
Empathy moves toward experience, while sympathy acknowledges it from a safe distance.
24:18
It's like sympathy kind of stands on the shore and waves.
24:23
Empathy, we're rolling up our pant legs and we're getting in the water.
24:26
But not to drown with you, but I want to be near you.
24:31
I want to try to understand your experience, even if I have to be right there,
24:34
seeing it through my eyes, even though I will never completely know what it feels like to be you.
24:41
Empathy is not merging. It's not absorbing.
24:44
It's not matching pain. And it's definitely not collapsing. because sometimes
24:48
when people try to jump in to the deep end of the pool of empathy,
24:51
they may even realize, oh gosh, I cannot believe that's what you're going. I am so sorry.
24:57
And now the person that was seeking the empathetic connection is now trying
25:02
to fix the person who jumped in and tried to be empathetic.
25:06
No, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have
25:08
even brought you into this. And now that person feels even more unseen.
25:12
Empathy really is about staying regulated. even when you're near somebody in distress.
25:17
So empathy actually isn't burning your hand to prove loyalty,
25:20
but it is standing calmly next
25:22
to somebody whose hand is burning or burned and saying, man, I am here.
25:27
I am going to go through this with you, even if I don't know exactly what that feels like.
25:31
This is why when somebody says, I know exactly how you feel,
25:34
they're trying to connect,
25:36
But the truth is no one knows exactly how you feel because nobody is going to
25:41
truly understand exactly how you feel or what it feels like to be you.
25:44
Why? Because you're the only version of you who has ever existed and you're
25:49
going through life the very first time.
25:51
You're a wonderful combination of your nature and your nurture,
25:54
your birth order, your DNA, your abandonment, your attachment history,
25:57
your faith journeys, your abandonment wounds, your temperament,
26:00
your personality, your wiring, your friends, your pets.
26:02
Nobody has walked the earth with that exact combination.
26:06
Behavioral genetics shows even identical twins raised together diverge in very
26:13
measurable ways over time so that they can have the same input,
26:17
but if they have to write down what they saw, different output.
26:20
Attachment research, it shows that your early caregiver interactions,
26:24
those things shape your neural wiring in very deep individual ways.
26:30
Dan Siegel, who I mentioned earlier, emphasizes that your subjective experience
26:33
is so uniquely constructed.
26:35
Even identical twins, same DNA, same house, same parents, same dog,
26:40
same cat, same breakfast cereal.
26:42
Don't report identical emotional experiences.
26:44
And that comes from decades of developmental and personality research.
26:48
Connection does not come from claiming sameness. It comes from honoring someone's
26:52
difference and then not trying to tell them that their experience is wrong or that yours is right.
26:58
There's a moment that I have witnessed, honestly, hundreds of times in my office.
27:01
And if you've been in a relationship, most likely you'll recognize this.
27:06
Let's introduce Sarah and Mark into the equation. Sarah comes home from work.
27:09
She's drained. She tells her husband, Mark, had the worst day.
27:11
My boss just dismissed my presentation in front of the whole team.
27:14
I spent two weeks on that project and then she just, she just moved on like it didn't even matter.
27:19
Mark leans in, he even nods. It's like, man, that sounds frustrating.
27:23
Good so far, right? I mean, that's, we're heading down the path of empathy.
27:26
But then within about three seconds, he follows up with, have you thought about
27:30
scheduling a one-on-one with her?
27:31
I mean, maybe she didn't realize how much work that you put in.
27:33
You could show her the data again. and Sarah's face kind of changes.
27:37
You're not listening to me. And Mark's genuinely confused because he said the validating thing.
27:42
He offered a helpful solution from his side. Hey, I'm trying to help.
27:46
Or let's look at another example. David and Rachel. David tells his wife,
27:49
Rachel, he's been feeling really disconnected from the kids.
27:52
Man, it seems like they'd rather be on their phones than even talk to me.
27:55
I try to engage with them and I just get these one word answers.
27:58
And it makes me feel like I'm failing as a dad.
28:00
Rachel hears this and she says, man, I'm sorry, babe, that's hard. And
28:03
so then almost immediately she says but
28:06
teenagers just like that you know maybe you could plan something they
28:09
would actually want to do you could take them to that new arcade downtown
28:12
you could just maybe spend a little more time with them and david goes quiet
28:16
and he nods but something you could tell had shifted and he doesn't bring it
28:20
up again later rachel's frustrated because she's saying you know david you never
28:25
open up but from david's perspective he's thinking well why would i because
28:29
you just told me that, yeah, that's perfectly normal,
28:32
kind of feeling dismissed with his feelings. But then also, here's how you can fix them.
28:35
He didn't feel felt. He felt more managed.
28:39
So the pattern is that in both of those examples, the listening partner did
28:42
something that honestly, it did look like empathy, definitely sympathy.
28:48
And it was coming from a place that was good. They acknowledged the feeling.
28:52
They said caring words, but then they kind of dashed.
28:55
They touched the stove of their partner's pain just briefly,
28:58
just enough to register No, it's hot.
29:01
And they pull their hand back as fast as they can. So they checked this,
29:05
this empathy box, and then they sprinted toward solutions, typically positivity,
29:09
shifting your perspective, anything to get away from the heat.
29:13
And it's like this empathy dash. And it's one of the most common patterns that
29:17
I see in couples. And if you do this, there's actually nothing wrong with you.
29:21
It's one of those situations where you just don't know what you don't know.
29:24
And so now that we are understanding what that is, then we can do something about it.
29:30
Okay. And now let's talk about why we do this because I enjoy the origin story.
29:35
I enjoy understanding why.
29:37
And it's fascinating. I had a conversation about this with my wife over the weekend.
29:41
We were talking about how some people with the information, it's like the buck
29:46
stops there. So let's take an ADHD diagnosis.
29:48
For some people, they get the ADHD diagnosis. And then from that day forward,
29:51
well, you know, I have ADHD, meaning that so that's there's nothing I could do because of my ADHD.
29:56
And I'm more of a fan of, ah, that's what it is. I have ADHD.
30:00
So now I can do, I can figure out how do I work with that?
30:04
So that is what I am projecting onto all of you, my wonderful listeners.
30:09
So let's talk about the origin story. A few months ago, I took a training from
30:14
Terry Reel and I was fitting a lot of his work into almost every podcast.
30:18
And now it's something that has been integrated into a lot of the couples work
30:21
that I do. And here's what the concept is.
30:24
He says the things that we do to survive as children become the things that sabotage us as adults.
30:29
So what was adaptive in childhood becomes maladaptive in adulthood.
30:32
Terry Real describes three parts of our psyche. He says there's the wise adult.
30:36
That's the grounded present part of us that can observe, reflect,
30:40
and make conscious choices.
30:42
And that's there when you can learn to build the pause, to be able to self-reflect
30:47
to kind of look at yourself in that moment.
30:49
Then you got the wounded child. That's the part of us that still holds our earliest
30:53
pain, shame, fear, abandonment. And then you've got the adaptive child.
30:57
That's the part of you that developed these strategies to survive and navigate
31:01
those painful experiences of the wounded child.
31:04
It's the, if I do this, I can avoid pain. If I do that, I can stay safe.
31:09
So that adaptive child, actually, it's brilliant because those strategies worked.
31:13
You are alive. They kept you going.
31:15
But the challenge is that the adaptive child doesn't ever update its playbook.
31:19
So it's still running these old programs, even in new situations as an adult.
31:23
So if you learned to shut down and weather the storm and withdraw until a uncomfortable
31:30
conversation passed, that helped you survive as a kid.
31:34
But now it's not actually very conducive to intimacy in an adult relationship.
31:39
Let me give you a couple of examples.
31:41
Frank was a classic empathy dasher. His wife would share something hard and
31:46
within seconds, he would offer up solutions and silver linings and essentially toxic positivity.
31:51
So here's what came up when we started to explore his history.
31:54
He grew up with a mom who had very, very intense emotional episodes and they were all over the board.
32:00
When she was upset, the whole house walked on eggshells. So young Frank learned
32:03
very quickly that when mom was emotional, his job, fix it,
32:08
not withdraw fix it calm her down make it stop perform say anything even take
32:14
something upon yourself sacrifice yourself because when her emotions went on
32:17
for too long then things got scary so frank became a fixer when that house with
32:22
that mom it was a brilliant adaptation well done young frank,
32:27
Now he's married to a woman who doesn't need him to fix her feelings.
32:31
She needs him to be with her in the feelings. And his adaptive child has no
32:36
idea how to do that. Or let's look at Michelle.
32:38
So she had a different version of the same parent. Her family was super mellow.
32:42
Nobody raised their voice. If you were upset, you just kind of dealt with it
32:46
privately and you moved on. And by dealing with it privately,
32:49
that meant you just kind of ignored it.
32:51
So when her husband would share something that was painful, she felt genuinely
32:56
uncomfortable. I don't know what to do with this.
32:58
Her instinct was to help him get over it fast because that's what her family
33:01
did. She'd say things like, I mean, at least you have a job or maybe you're overthinking it.
33:06
And she really did believe that she was being helpful. But from his perspective,
33:09
she was absolutely dismissing his experience.
33:13
Now, in both cases, the empathy dash wasn't a character flaw.
33:18
It's a survival strategy. The
33:20
part of you that dashes away from emotion genuinely believes it's helping.
33:25
It's not trying to be dismissive. It's trying to protect you from discomfort.
33:28
But your partner doesn't need protection from their own feelings.
33:32
They need your presence.
33:34
So let's talk about what your partner actually needs, because I think that once
33:37
you understand this, things may click.
33:40
And I think it's really important to note that just because you will have awareness
33:44
does not mean that the implementation of this is easy.
33:48
But we got to start somewhere. Back to Dan Siegel and his work on interpersonal
33:51
neurobiology. He introduces the idea of co-regulation.
33:55
So the way that our nervous systems are wired to sync with people around us. Think about a baby.
33:59
A baby can't calm itself down, so it borrows its caregiver's nervous system.
34:03
The parent picks up the baby, it rocks it, hums softly, and the baby's nervous system settles.
34:08
You can borrow my nervous system. We co-regulate. And what it's learning is
34:12
when I'm upset and someone calm shows up, I'm okay.
34:16
So that doesn't stop when we grow up. When we're stressed or flooded with emotion,
34:19
we look to the people closest to us for regulation.
34:22
Our nervous systems are constantly sending signals. Am I safe? Is this person with me?
34:27
It's also fascinating to think about the fact that if there wasn't a safe,
34:32
calm version of that parent in the home, then the familiar became, if I get upset,
34:38
that person gets more upset or that person shuts down and that just becomes the dance.
34:43
So, let me give an example, a couple of versions of the same moment.
34:46
So, let's say that there's a lady named Maria.
34:48
She comes home after learning that their car needs a couple of thousand bucks
34:51
in repairs and they had not budgeted for it.
34:53
She's stressed her chest tightens her thoughts
34:56
race so we have version a her husband james puts
34:59
down what he's doing he turns to face her he takes a breath
35:02
hey tell me what happened and as maria explains
35:06
he maintains eye contact sets his phone down his body stays relaxed he doesn't
35:11
interrupt and after she finishes he says that's a lot and i appreciate you sharing
35:15
that and i can only imagine how stressful that is pause we figured out many
35:21
things before we can do this let's sit down after dinner and we'll take a look at it together.
35:25
Maria notices her breathing has slowed. The panic has softened.
35:29
He didn't pretend the problem didn't exist, but his steadiness helped her nervous system settle.
35:35
He didn't have all the answers, but they could figure it out together.
35:37
He stayed at the stove and now they can think clearly together.
35:42
Now let's look at option B. Maria comes to him with the same information.
35:46
James' body immediately tenses.
35:50
Can't hold back. And he says, are you serious? I told you we should have taken
35:53
it to my guy. Now her heart rate spikes.
35:56
He turns away, just turns to start scrolling his phone. She follows him down the hall.
36:00
Please don't shut down. We have to do something about this. Her nervous system
36:04
is now chasing connection.
36:05
His withdrawal feels threatening. And then he experiences her intensity is overwhelming,
36:10
which then makes him continue to retreat.
36:12
And they've entered the classic pursuer withdrawal cycle, both more activated
36:17
than when it started. The problem's unsolved.
36:20
The injury to the relationship has been added with this financial stress and
36:24
what they're training the relationship and teaching it is that we can't talk
36:28
about finances and it's going to be bad. So buckle up and come in big.
36:32
When your partner shares something difficult, their nervous system is activated.
36:36
They're looking to you subconsciously. Maybe they're aware of it.
36:40
More biologically is how they're looking to you for help regulating.
36:44
And if you stay calm and present, your regulated nervous system can actually help calm theirs.
36:50
Your steadiness can become contagious. But if you rush to fix,
36:54
even if that sounds like the right mouth noises, your nervous system communicates
36:58
something that I'm sure you're not intending.
37:00
I can't even handle your distress. I need it to stop. And instead of settling,
37:04
then they escalate because the person who was supposed to help them feel safe
37:07
just signaled, hey, your feelings are too much or the way that you're handling
37:10
this is wrong. And I need you to do this thing that I'm saying. No questions asked.
37:14
So what do you do differently? If you've listened to the podcast for a while,
37:17
you've maybe heard me talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation.
37:20
And it's a framework that I developed based on Sue Johnson's emotionally focused therapy work.
37:24
So a very quick review, you've got a pre-pillar of separating observation from judgment.
37:29
If my partner walks by me and they are just looking at their phone and they
37:33
don't say anything, that's an observation.
37:35
The judgment might be, they are obviously mad at me, but we don't know that.
37:39
So you separate the observation from the judgment.
37:42
That leads to pillar one, which is essentially assuming good intentions.
37:45
There's a reason why people do what they do.
37:47
And I don't believe inherently that people wake up and think,
37:50
how can I hurt my partner?
37:51
The second pillar is pretty important. Don't tell other people that they're
37:54
wrong or you don't believe them or that's not how it happened.
37:57
Even if you think they're wrong and you don't think that's how it happened and
38:00
you don't believe them because we're going to stay in the conversation,
38:04
which then leads to pillar three, ask questions before you make comments.
38:07
And then pillar four, stay present. Don't go into a victim mode.
38:11
And today I think I want to spend more time on pillar three,
38:15
questions before comments.
38:16
This is the antidote to this empathy dash.
38:20
The core principle here is your job in a connected conversation is not to respond.
38:24
It's to understand. We'll get to the response later.
38:27
And you understand by asking genuinely curious questions, not making assumptions,
38:33
not assuming, no, I know what you're going to say.
38:35
Just humor me because you don't actually know unless I guess maybe if you are
38:41
literally a mind reader, but asking genuinely curious questions,
38:44
not leading questions, not, okay, I hear you. have you thought about doing this?
38:50
So that does sound like a question. You could even put a question mark after
38:53
it. That's more of a comment dressed up in a disguise.
38:57
So let's go back to Sarah, whose boss dismissed her presentation.
39:01
So instead of jumping to solutions, what if Mark had stayed curious?
39:03
Sarah, my boss dismissed my presentation in front of everybody.
39:06
Mark, oh man, she dismissed it in front of everybody. That sounds awful.
39:10
Sarah said, I spent two weeks on that. And Mark said, hey, what was going through
39:13
your mind when that happened?
39:15
And I want to pause and say, when you start doing this, and it's,
39:20
if it's something that you haven't done before, I can imagine you can listen
39:23
to this question that Mark just asked, what was going through your mind when it happened?
39:27
And if you're not used to a genuinely curious version of your partner,
39:31
it's going to sound like what was going through your mind when it happened?
39:35
Like you must, it must've been wrong. It must've been ridiculous.
39:39
And this dips into the emotional immaturity pool. If I feel it,
39:42
if I think it, it must be true.
39:44
And that's a trap to fall into because at some point I have to believe what the person's saying.
39:50
If I hear that, what was going through your mind when it happened?
39:54
And if I even said, hey, man, I just have to bring awareness to this.
39:57
I am assuming good intentions. I'm not telling you that what you're trying to
39:59
do is wrong. But what I am going to share with you is that feels to me judgy
40:06
or like you have an agenda.
40:08
And if the person asking the question now has this amazing opportunity to self-confront
40:12
and say, okay, thank you for bringing that to my awareness.
40:15
Quick check. I'm aware that I'm not being manipulative, but I can appreciate what you're saying.
40:20
That would be hard if you felt like I was. And maybe even I know that I've been
40:22
manipulative in the past, but that's a topic for a whole other podcast.
40:27
So back to Mark. Mark says, hey, what was going through your mind when it happened?
40:30
Genuinely curious. Then Sarah, having trust that we're having a connected moment
40:35
here, a connected conversation says, I just froze. I just, I felt so dumb.
40:39
It was almost like maybe my ideas aren't as good as I thought.
40:42
Then Mark followed up with, is that something you've worried about?
40:46
Tell me about that. You don't feel like your ideas are good enough.
40:48
Sarah pauses. She's like, yeah, no, actually, yeah. I've been feeling that way a lot.
40:52
And now they're getting somewhere real, true intimacy, knowing each other,
40:56
not just talking about scheduling or the kids, talking about Sarah's self-doubt.
41:02
And that's what she needed to process. And Mark never would have gotten there
41:06
if he had jumped to solutions after one empathetic sentence.
41:10
That's the part I love about being a couples therapist is when you can finally
41:12
get to this point, there's a lot there that we may not even know about ourselves,
41:17
but even if we know it, we may not feel safe enough to share it.
41:21
Another example, David, the dad feeling disconnected. So instead of Rachel jumping
41:25
to, we'll plan something fun. What if she got curious?
41:28
David's saying, man, the kids would rather be on their phones and talk to me.
41:31
Rachel, gosh, it sounds like you, it feels like you're competing with their
41:35
phones and he said yeah no i am and i think i'm losing.
41:38
And again, Rachel may want to say, well, me too. Or yeah, this is kids these days. Nope.
41:43
She says, what does that feel like when you, when you try and they just give
41:46
that one word answer? What's that like for you?
41:48
David says, like, I don't even matter. Like, I'm just the guy who pays for things.
41:52
And then Rachel says, I appreciate you sharing that. How long have you felt that way?
41:57
And David months, maybe, I don't know. I never even would let myself think about
41:59
it because I will collapse into shame.
42:03
And Rachel says, that sounds really lonely.
42:06
David's eyes get a little bit wet. And he said, it is. It really is.
42:10
I appreciate you even just acknowledging that.
42:13
Rachel didn't fix anything. She didn't solve the teenager problem,
42:16
but David feels felt. He's not alone with this pain anymore.
42:19
So I want to give you something concrete to try this week and stay with the
42:24
theme today. Let's call it staying at the stove.
42:26
So when your partner shares something hard and you touch the stove with their
42:30
emotion and you pull back and you typically then will dash to these solutions or positivity.
42:35
What I would love for you to try is to practice staying at the stove just a
42:39
little bit longer, not forever, not until you're burned, just a little longer
42:43
than is comfortable because growth comes from discomfort.
42:46
So here's something to try, and I'm going to call it the three before one rule, three before one.
42:52
The next time your partner shares something difficult, offer three empathetic
42:56
responses before anything else, before you even try to offer advice,
43:00
before you get to solutions, before you are giving them the just look on the bright side.
43:04
Type of response. But here's what those three empathetic responses are.
43:09
Response number one, try to reflect back what you heard.
43:12
Simple mirroring. Show them that their words landed. Man, I hear that you were
43:16
frustrated or it sounds like you didn't feel like you were given a fair shake.
43:20
Response two, ask a curious question. Do your best to go deeper into their experience.
43:25
Hey, tell me more about that.
43:27
What was that like? Have you ever felt that way before? How long have you felt
43:30
that way in response three which i think is probably the most important.
43:36
Stay silent and let them continue. Just wait and let there be space.
43:41
So let's go to the example of work stress. Say that your wife comes home.
43:45
I'm so frustrated. My coworker took credit again for my idea.
43:48
Old pattern, the empathy dash.
43:50
Man, that's annoying. Have you talked to your manager about it?
43:53
I think you really need to document this stuff. That's probably what you should do.
43:56
New pattern. Three before one. Reflect. Wait, she took credit for your idea
44:00
in front of everybody? Wife. Yeah, she acted like it was totally her thing.
44:03
Curious question. Oh man, what were you thinking then? What was going through
44:06
your head when that happened?
44:08
Wife, I was so mad. But honestly, I was also kind of embarrassed.
44:12
Should I have spoken up? But I didn't even know how.
44:14
Stay silent. Let her continue. And she says, you know, I think what really bothers
44:19
me is this has happened before.
44:21
It's not like it's the first time. And I keep not saying anything.
44:24
And then I just resent her more. So now you're getting something deeper.
44:28
Her pattern of not speaking up. Her fear of conflict.
44:31
She got there herself because you gave her space.
44:33
Go back to this idea of being overwhelmed as a parent. Your husband says,
44:37
man, I feel like I'm the only one who disciplines the kids.
44:39
You're always the fun one. I'm the bad guy. The old pattern, that's not true.
44:42
I discipline them too. Remember last week when I took away the iPad? New pattern.
44:47
Man, so do you feel like you're always the heavy? Husband, yeah.
44:50
And they go run into you and I'm the big jerk.
44:53
Then curious question. Tell me what that's like. What does that feel like?
44:56
Or give me some examples of that. Help me understand. Tell me more.
45:00
And the husband, it hurts. It feels like they don't even like me. Stay silent.
45:05
Husband. I don't know. I think I'm starting to be scared that I'm becoming my
45:09
dad. And I never thought I would be my dad. And that's what he would do for me.
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He was a strict one and I resented him for it. I never wanted to be that guy.
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But now I see my kids looking at me the same way.
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There's, that's the real connection. That's intimacy. And he's not asking you to discipline more.
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He's afraid of losing his kids' love, but you never would have gotten there
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if you defended yourself after his first sentence.
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So after all three responses, you may not even need to offer anything else.
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And if they want your input, maybe they'll ask or you can offer, but not before.
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And I do want to address something that might be coming up. And I hear this
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a lot from partners who've been doing most of the repair work.
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Okay, I get it. Stay present, ask questions, don't rush to fix. But what about me?
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I'm doing all this work and my partner never even acknowledges it.
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Don't I deserve recognition?
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I'd worked with a husband who had been reading books and listening to podcasts
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and really trying to show up differently. And after a few weeks,
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he told me, I swear she seems more mad at me than ever before.
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And I don't understand that. How does that make sense? And I can see his exhaustion and it was genuine.
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Another client, a wife, once said to me, I have been biting my tongue,
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staying curious, like you said, but he never notices.
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It's not like he turns back around and asks me questions and it makes me want to stop trying.
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My answer, oh man, oh yeah, of course, I can understand why you would want your
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effort seen. That is a legitimate need.
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But then here's the tricky part. If you're only staying present because you're
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hoping that your partner will notice, then it's a good start,
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but it's not actual presence. That's more of a transaction.
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And if we go back to the concepts of co-regulation, our nervous systems are
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talking to each other, your partner can feel the difference.
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This is where differentiation comes in. The ability to hold onto yourself while
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in proximity to someone important to you.
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A differentiated person can say,
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I think I showed up well in that conversation and I feel good about it.
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They don't need their partner to confirm it, but don't get me wrong, it would be nice.
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But they're not destabilized by the absence of that recognition,
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that validation. And here's what's wild.
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The less you need the external validation, the more your partner will actually
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see you because you're not clouding the interaction with this neediness,
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this clinginess, this just anxious energy.
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You're just there and you're grounded and you're present.
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That's what creates safety. You absolutely deserve to be able to express yourself
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and even have needs met. But the starting point is learning to show up because
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it's the right thing to do, not because you're guaranteed a reward.
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And one more thing. Sometimes when your partner shares something hard and it's
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hard for you too, maybe they're sharing something about you and even a way that you hurt them.
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Now your adaptive child is activated. Your brain is screaming,
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defend yourself, fix the facts, correct them.
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But like, let's take the example of a husband using the three before one.
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Here's his wife say, I feel like you never prioritize me. You choose work over me and the kids.
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Everything in him wants to debate the word never. But if he does,
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the conversation's over.
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Because now they're debating facts instead of connecting. A wife practicing
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curiosity hears, sometimes you're more like my mother than my wife.
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The urge to counteract would be intense. But if she goes there,
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you'll most likely stop bringing up things that are vulnerable to her again.
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So what do you do when you're the one getting triggered?
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Notice your body. Are your shoulders tensing? Is your jaw clenching?
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Is your heart rate up? That's your nervous system starting to get into fight
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or flight mode. And it's normal.
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It's not a flaw. It's a survival instinct.
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It's important to take a breath literally in through the nose and out through the mouth.
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And ideally, a longer breath out through the mouth. This activates the parasympathetic
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nervous system, your rest and digest system. And it helps bring you back online.
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Remember, the goal is not to win, not to be right. It's to understand,
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to let your partner feel it, to be able to hold two things at once.
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This is hard to hear and there might be some truth in it.
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I want to defend myself and my partner needs me to listen right now.
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That's emotional maturity in action. Your wise adult is starting to show up,
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even when your adaptive child is screaming.
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And you're not going to do it perfectly. I don't do it perfectly.
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And that isn't the goal even. It's just to continue to do it and show up.
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Because every time you stay a little longer, every time you catch yourself before
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you do the empathy dash, you're training your nervous system.
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You're creating these new neural pathways. And over time, I promise it does get easier.
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Not easy, but easier. And if you've been doing this empathy dash,
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I want you to know you're not broken. You're human.
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Because it's the first time you've gone through life is you in this relationship
49:35
with this partner and you haven't done this before.
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None of us have. And that urge to fix and to solve and to make the hard feeling
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stop was a brilliant one at one time.
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It kept you safe, but it was also really performative.
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Now you get to learn something new.
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Staying present with somebody's pain is one of the most profound gifts that
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you can give your presence, not your solutions.
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That's what your partner actually needs. And the discomfort of being at that
49:59
stove temporarily, maybe within range of the heat, that the connection you build by staying.
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That is training the nervous system and that lasts. So this week,
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try this three before one.
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When your partner shares something hard, catch yourself, reflect what you heard,
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ask a curious question, stay silent and let them continue and notice what happens.
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Not just to them, to you.
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Because when people stop dashing away and they start staying, things shift.
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And that's the beginning of rebuilding trust and your connection deepens and
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your partner starts to feel something they may not have felt in a long time.
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I'm seen, understood, felt, they have felt, felt, but they don't feel perfection.
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It's just staying a little bit longer than you did before, letting them have
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their thunder and you don't need to steal it.
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You'll have an opportunity to share your own experiences, your own thunder at
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some point as well, but it will take patience and it will take practice and
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you're not going to be perfect at it.
50:55
And when you fall off that proverbial horse, then it could hurt,
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but you're going to get up and you're going to do it again and you're going
51:03
to get pretty darn good at writing.
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But I do know that this is a model that works and it's normal and natural to
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yeah, but it and to think of all the reasons why it wouldn't because that will keep you where you are.
51:16
And that is pretty familiar, even if it doesn't feel good.
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As always, reach out. If you want to talk more about this, contact at TonyOverbay.com.
51:23
If this episode resonated, I would love for you to share it with somebody who might need to hear it.
51:27
And there will be a lot of this kind
51:30
of content and more in my magnetic marriage reboot so to get on the wait list
51:34
go to tonyoverbay.com magnetic and i cannot wait to talk to you next time on
51:40
the compressed emotions flying
51:42
past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's.