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The Feedback Backlash · Sunday Scaries: Work Edition

• 0:03
  Welcome to The Sunday Scaries Work Edition, a podcast for hot takes and real talk on all your workplace quandaries, hosted by two burned out girl bosses who've seen it all.
• 0:13
  I'm Bijal Mehta. I started my career building warehouses and super fast delivery for the Internet's magical two-day shipping. I've worked in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America with both big tech and startups. Over 15 years, I became a vice president leading drone delivery operations. I've managed more than 500 people across the world and these days I raise my playful daughter and chat with my good friend, Emily.
• 0:37
  And I'm Emily Tao. I got my start making coffee as a production assistant at CBS News. Eventually, I became the first director of communications at the largest entertainment union in the U.S. and Canada. My 15-year career and counting has taken me from red carpets to political fights to Ivy League admissions offices.
• 0:57
  We're here for your weekly dose of workplace reality. Let's jump in!
• 1:03
  So Emily, how you doing? What's up? Oh my gosh, so many things. But I will talk about my weird cheapness in coming to you. It's raining today. The cars took forever, the car shares, and it made me think about when I used to travel a lot for work, and I know you traveled a lot, too.
• 1:24
  And there was like this rush of being in my 20s and being like, "I have a per diem. I can charge this to the car. I'm going to expense this ride.: I wasn't going nuts, right? I never worked at any very splashy, fancy places. Like, I didn't work in finance. I didn't work in tech. But like I definitely felt this rush of like, "Oh, my God, I can just take an Uber and it's not a share or something."
• 1:48
  OK, wait, I actually have to challenge this notion that you didn't work at flashy places. You have literally been on red carpets. OK, that part was flashy. My part was not because it was the labor union that represented behind-the-stage workers. And in many ways, they didn't want to be flashy. Right? Like that's their brand: They're the stage hands. They're behind the scenes. And I'm sure there are individuals who would love it. They're the real deal. Yeah. But they're not the actors.
• 2:16
  They're the ones who make it work. But you've met actors through your work. I have. And I'm sure they expense their cars as well!
• 2:25
  But I was just thinking about that because I'm like, oh, I feel like, you know, so much of the experience I've had is at nonprofits or places that are very traditional. And in most cases, I think, are not flashy when you when you think about a flashy job.
• 2:40
  And it's just weird because when I started, I had come from working- I worked in television. I worked at CBS News. And that sounds fancy; it's very unfancy. And I was a production assistant when I started, where you make so little money. Your main job is making coffee. I didn't even know how to make coffee. I was pretty bad at that part of the job, which is the main part of that job really. I'm still not sure if I'm good at making coffee. One of the many reasons that you're not a production assistant now.
• 3:08
  Okay, actually, though, coffee making skills- I know this is not what you want to talk about. Coffee making skills for many people is like a true skill that I think matters.
• 3:21
  This is ridiculous: so in my last job, we used to do these off-sites for our team. And, you know, the company was small-ish. By the time I left, it was over 1,000 people. So I was an executive there. And at that level, I think a lot of places like to have this intimacy with their leadership team.
• 3:44
  And so basically hosting skills. Like the things that we... What was the degree? Like they would call it the MRS degree. No, economics, something. Home economics. Home economics! Oh, the Texas in you came out. I went to college for my MRS degree. My MRS degree.
• 4:02
  No, like the stuff you would learn in home economics, it comes back. You need it. Wait, so did you as an executive need those skills? Yes. Oh wow! I hosted my colleagues. I hosted like a group of almost 10 to 15 executives at my home. Wow! And it was kind of last minute.
• 4:20
  My boss was going to host. But then I think his kids fell sick or something like that. And he's like, "We're not going to get anything done if my young daughter is at home." And so I was like- and he was really didn't want to do it at the office. Because the whole point of an off-site is there, like, psychologically you get out of the day-to-day, you know?
• 4:40
  And so we did it at my home. And like I heard stories about this when I was at Amazon. And that was my first job. And like this is like when Bezos was still CEO. It's like, Bezos would take his senior team to his home. Like that was a thing that happens. Wow!
• 4:54
  And so I still remember that one of the big- I was nervous about this hosting thing. And I have a lot of experience hosting. I also have a lot of, I was raised traditional. I have very like high standards for myself when hosting. And so I was definitely nervous.
• 5:11
  And I remember one of the big fiascos is everybody gets there at like 8, 9 a.m. or whatever. And these are long days together. We're working, right? But I had, at the time, one of those like coffee setups that's for one. It's a pour-over. You make one cup of coffee at a time. Yes, that is what I have. I make my one coffee with my 20 grams of beans. It was a total fiasco because nobody could function until they had their coffee! And many of these people were from out of town. So it's not like they were at their own homes to make their coffee for themselves. Oh, yeah.
• 5:46
  And I was just like- and in a pour-over you can do multiple cups, but I didn't know how to do it. Because I literally only knew how to make coffee that tasted good for myself. Yeah, you didn't have time to look up the ratios. I didn't know the ratios, I didn't understand this, it was a Chemex. Oh, my gosh. I'm even- And so now, if I ever host, next day someone stopped at like a Starbucks or something and got a carafe.
• 6:09
  So we fixed it for day two onwards. But I'm telling you, you need to know these secret skills. They matter! You know, back when I did have to make coffee for a job, I was young enough that I didn't need coffee for the job. And now I'm like, yeah, that would be the number one thing. Any meeting, off-site conference, for us it was coffee and smoke breaks. And if you didn't have either, people were going to be in a bad mood. Oh, yeah.
• 6:34
  Coffee, smoke breaks, snacks. Yes. And bathroom privacy. Oh, big time, big time. My house at the time, it was a small two- It was a house, but it was a two bedroom. I was renting. Let me be clear. Very much renting, COVID rates. It was not the best for that many people. Yeah.
• 6:54
  All right. Shall we get into our question? Yes, please. Okay.
• 6:59
  "Dear Sunday Scaries: I recently gave a co-worker some feedback and she didn't take it well. The feedback was fair. It was specific, I gave examples of where her work was confusing me, and I asked for one small change so we could get aligned. She immediately got defensive and it's like this with her. She used to be my senior before we became peers. I'm sure that that plays a role. But here's where I'm really stuck: why does her reaction get under my skin so much? Why do I feel so rattled just because she got upset? We both work in healthcare, if that matters. Signed, Why Do I Care So Much?"
• 7:42
  All right. Give me your gut reaction on this. This sounds like my mom. Your mom? It feels like me giving feedback to my mom. And mom's like, ah! And yeah, that's a different, sadder podcast.
• 7:56
  But someone who can't take feedback well that you're trying to manage. Even if you're not trying to manage, feedback's a really important part of a workplace and of not even just improving yourself, but working more efficiently together, especially in healthcare, I imagine there's a lot of teamwork involved. There's no one person doing one whole thing, right? Yeah, that's true.
• 8:20
  And I think you have more experience or knowledge about the healthcare industry as well. I do have a lot of opinions about healthcare. Yeah. For the audience, my sister is a doctor. And so I feel like I've seen it from her. She's only a year older, too. And so I've seen her go through school and what her peers are like. And now they're our doctors. And I'm like, I can't take any of y'all seriously.
• 8:46
  Yeah, the less I know about their personal lives, the better. I have very strong opinions about healthcare. Yeah. Continue. Yeah.
• 8:52
  So this is like the administrative part of the healthcare, I assume, where this person's giving feedback. And I can totally understand not feeling good because you did everything right. Like, if you're the Letter Writer and you did everything right, you gave feedback in, let's say, a compassionate way. And I'm not talking that dumb compliment sandwich. That's not the way to do it, right?
• 9:16
  But something specific, you're delivering it in a thoughtful way, and then someone reacts like it was a personal attack? I would feel quite bad because I'm like, I did everything right. Why aren't you trying to do something right in this place where I'm not trying to hurt your feelings? And this still has to be given, right? For not just you, but the good of how we all do our jobs, how we all function.
• 9:40
  Yeah, but I think the question asker here is saying, "Yeah, obviously, I should be upset. Like, I'm in the right. This person is defensive. But it's not my problem. Why do I keep thinking about it afterwards, like in the shower? Or, you know, like, why does it hang with me?" Yeah.
• 9:58
  Because that's unhelpful. And I can relate to that, which is like, it's your job in a work environment to give people feedback, to do it as well as you possibly can. It's never going to be perfect. And it's your job to be able to receive such feedback as well. But it's like, I've done my job. Why am I still thinking about my job? Which I think we can all, you know, like it's like- I can relate to that, even outside of feedback. There's just things where you're like, I shouldn't care about this, but I do, deeply. Yes, yes. Yeah.
• 10:30
  Oh, gosh, that's a tough one. Is it bad to care? I guess it's bad when it's haunting, you know, your dreams when you wake up, when you go to sleep. But is it bad to care? Um, that's a good question.
• 10:44
  I... Okay, this is an interesting scenario. When I left- My first job was at Amazon. I stayed there for like almost seven years. It was a big deal for me to eventually come to the conclusion that it was time for me to leave. And I made what, I think for most people, sounds like an extremely bizarre choice. I decided- I was like, for context, I was pretty young. I was 28, 29. I was about to get married. I was getting married, it was August. I had decided to leave. I was getting married in October.
• 11:24
  I was on this very big project in Japan where I was the lead and almost no one else from the team was really brought up. In fact, my subordinate at the time was like quite combative and like problematic, to be honest. Ugh. Subordinate, I don't know why you chose that word, that's such a strong power word. I do like it. But it's not a word you would typically use. It's not, yeah.
• 11:43
  I think because I have this negative- I actually got an apology from him. Whoa, like later? Later. Oh, and it's connected to this story. Actually, wow, I didn't realize how connected to this question this really is. He was very bad at taking feedback. And in this case, the power dynamic was reversed. I was his boss.
• 12:02
  I remember in one of those meetings, we had a huge... So, on that project, we had a huge meeting the next day in Japan with all the senior leadership. And we were editing the paper. Like, at Amazon, you start every meeting with a white paper. And that is like the crux. That is your presentation, that's everything. It has to be really, really top notch. You will get minuscule feedback from like, there should be a period on the end of this sentence, like grammar feedback to like idea-based feedback.
• 12:32
  And in general, I sort of like that because I'm a linguist. I love writing. Like if clarity helps everybody get to the real problem sooner, the actual thing you want to be talking about. And if you don't have clarity in what you're writing, then people get distracted, they interpret it differently. Now you're not talking about what you're supposed to be talking about. Big agree.
• 12:51
  The dude fell asleep. Yeah. No! Like we were working from our respective hotels. I was like emailing him. He was in charge of these sections. And I was emailing him feedback. And he just stopped responding. And I had to, and it was his job to get the document done. Like it was very clear that was his job.
• 13:13
  And so then I think like I got up really early, many hours before the meeting on the chance of like, well, he might do it. And then didn't, heard nothing. And so I just finished it. My man fell asleep and didn't do his job. Mmhmm. And I was his boss, Emily! Damn!
• 13:29
  Like, so maybe... I can't remember now how rattled I must have felt around that. But I definitely remember in general, like I was like a much less confident version of myself than I am now. I'm sure that I felt shook, but like in a frozen kind of way, like I didn't know what to do about it because it's like, basically it's somebody saying like, you don't matter. You know, it affects your sense of like power. Yeah. And your sense of like, do... Like how... You just immediately are just like, if I was a man, would he have listened to me?
• 14:04
  Right. You know, if I was- You, you, you jump to all these like narratives that we've been told in society about who gets to have power and who doesn't get to have power. And you start to affiliate yourself as the one who doesn't have power. Right. Which I don't think I would do that now. Yeah. What would you do now?
• 14:24
  So I guess what I did in that situation was I told him it wasn't acceptable. Right. And I don't remember yelling at him or anything like that, but I remember being very clear on what's acceptable and not acceptable with the intention that, you know, reviews were coming up. I was going to put it all in the reviews, right? Yeah.
• 14:48
  What I would do now is kind of related to, I guess... Well, what happened around that time was I told my boss I wanted to leave the company. I gave him six months notice. Wow. That's the part that, yeah. That's generous. It's generous, it's super weird, like I don't think most people would do that. Yeah.
• 15:07
  But I noticed something during that time in the six months: I stopped caring. Like what this, this, this person is asking, like, why does it sit? Things didn't sit with me in the same way. Yeah. Someone hated my work. Okay. Somebody is like, "I need you to fix everything right now and stay up late to do it." I'm like, in my head, I was like- I'm going to fall asleep now! I said, okay, but in my head I was like, I'm going to fall- Exactly. Exactly. And, but I noticed the impact I was having at the job was the same. Ohh...
• 15:40
  So this literally happened: I worked on this presentation. Everybody's like, "I don't like any of these conclusions. Show me what the opposite will look like." I was like, "It'll take me three weeks." And that's something I would have turned around within the same week. Wow. Before then. And they're like, okay.
• 15:56
  During those three weeks, the people come back to me being like, "Actually we kind of agree with these, the original conclusions that you drew." Oh my God. I didn't have to do the work again. I would feel really frustrated though, during that period because I'm like, damn, I- You just kind of rethink how you did everything the last few years you were there. At least I would.
• 16:16
  I think what I rethought was my own distance from the work and how to not let it get to me. And maybe this is going back to potentially one of the pieces of advice I'd give to this individual. I don't know how to apply it to their situation. It took me the actual experience of just ignoring people's bullshit. Right. Ignoring all this like feedback that I'd get from my leadership that I disagreed with. Ignoring the bullshit of this team member who then apologized to me.
• 16:51
  It was after I said I was leaving, after I grew my like "I don't give a shit" attitude because I was already leaving. Like, why was I going to go bend over backwards, right? Right. I was still going to do a good job. I care about that, that's my own pride. But like, I wasn't going to give more than that emotionally.
• 17:08
  I don't, it just clicked because I was leaving. I didn't have a magical solution, but because of that experience I had and literally this guy's like, "I know I was being a dick. It's because I didn't get promoted and I shouldn't have taken it out of you." It was a good apology, Em. Wow. I know. From a man who fell asleep in the middle of working. Yeah. Yes! Just to go to bed instead of doing what his boss, and I'm a good boss. I mean, you know, I'm complimenting myself.
• 17:35
  Right. So it took the experience of like not caring to realize I had nothing to fear by caring less. Yeah. And I think to me that sounds like it's the power dynamic. You could feel the difference in how you were investing yourself and how it played out.
• 17:54
  It also makes me wonder if, for this question asker, if there's like an emotional aspect. Right? Like, do you care if you're liked? Right? And I wonder if at Amazon, for example, I- from what I know about the company culture, it's very much like work-oriented. It's not as much like, do you like me? Like personality orientation, right? Yes!
• 18:21
  So your work is solid. You want to do a good job. And so in that way, you are- I'm using air quotes, right? "Liked." Right. Yes. But what if it's, you know... Healthcare, I imagine every workplace is different. Right. But like for this person, you want to be liked. You have to have a good rapport with the folks that you're working with. You're asking a lot of each other all the time. And I could also imagine like an emotional non-power dynamic that could affect you when you're giving feedback and someone reacts poorly.
• 18:51
  You're also patient-driven. Yeah. So one thing I've learned from my sister is like the patient reviews, the patient feedback, all of that plays such a bigger factor. And a lot of that plays into your psychology around likeability. Like we've talked about how the fact that, at its core, being a physician, being a healthcare provider is in, especially, you know, I mean, I guess it depends what kind of role in healthcare. You can be more back office, of course. Right.
• 19:19
  But assuming this is maybe more like front office, like what most people think about when they think of healthcare, it's a customer service job. Yeah. And a customer service job puts you in the position where you have to think about your likeability or how you're coming across to someone. So you're right that this individual might be a little bit more primed to care. Right.
• 19:42
  So wait, I got to take it back to the thing you asked in the beginning: is it bad to care? Yeah. I actually think it's rather wonderful when my healthcare people care about me, right? Yeah. I feel the care. I think for someone who is like working at a job, it would bother me like waking up thinking about it.
• 20:04
  I have had stress dreams about work situations, and that really does bother me because then I feel like I can't rest. I can't take a step away to process my, whatever around it. I can't take a break from it and come back later. And I think that's when it really starts to dig at me, right? And it could be a big work issue, it could just be I have this interpersonal conflict with a co-worker, it could be any scale of things. But when it sticks to me like that, and I feel like I can't shake it or get a distance, I think that's when it gets into a place that it starts to affect me in a bad way.
• 20:39
  Is there an example for you that just like comes to mind where that has happened to you? Yes, and they have mostly been personality-related issues. I actually can't think of a specific one. It's the ones that make me feel kind of sweaty when I think about it though. Yeah. And it's usually disagreement of opinions.
• 21:04
  I have worked at places where there were people who were not very emotionally mature, and how they expressed themselves, I think, was argumentative, very high-conflict. And these are things that I am personally comfortable with, being very direct and very high-conflict, but it also stresses me out. And I didn't realize that until much later.
• 21:26
  Okay, so it's less about, it sounds like... Your conclusion in those scenarios is that it's less about maybe the specifics of how you interacted with them, or what you could or couldn't have said differently to better optimize the situation. It's just that interacting with a person who's more high conflict is just stressful for you. And then that stress kind of like takes a while to like get out of your system physically.
• 21:54
  I think so. And the irony of that is I am a high-conflict person. But it's just, I do believe in a workplace conflict happens, and conflict is not always bad. It's not always arguing. It's just you see things a different way. Perhaps you think one way is better, or one way is more efficient, and neither of those are wrong or right. It's not about that, right? It's how you communicate it to someone who's supposed to be on your team. And that is a little different when you're working on a project versus being given feedback on your performance.
• 22:28
  Yeah. But I think the way that it's communicated in a place that you are going to come back to, so you essentially have a long-term relationship with this place and the people in it... That has a very, I think, big effect on people's bodies and lingers, right?
• 22:44
  There's something that you said that I just want to pull out and tease out and say really specifically, which is what I'm getting from your sort of takeaway or your advice here is that situations are going to create, you know, discomfort. Like when somebody doesn't take your feedback well, anyone is going to feel uncomfortable by that. For sure.
• 23:06
  But the narrative you create subsequent to that experience, about that experience, is the thing that might make it last longer and make it a bigger thing or a smaller thing. And I kind of get the sense that you've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really mean anything. It means that there's a personality dynamic that doesn't work. And so you and, you know, John just have sweaty interactions. Non-sexual, non-sexual sweaty interactions. Anxiety-sweat interactions. Anxiety-sweat interactions. Yeah,. And it's like when you account for that, you can prepare for that and move on.
• 23:44
  And I actually wonder if this individual, and their question almost hints at it, that they're making a bigger story or this person triggers from them a narrative they hold from somewhere else in their life about how they don't hold a lot of power. Yeah. Or they really need to be liked by everyone for feeling safety or something like that. Or they really need to be liked.
• 24:06
  Yeah, and that is maybe their own baggage that they're bringing to the dynamic with this individual. I will say this individual is 1,000% bringing their own baggage about defensiveness. Oh, for sure. It is their issue. And you don't even need to know, you can recognize it is their own weird issue. Right, right. They're just triggering for the advice giver in this, you know, their-
• 24:30
  What did they say? Why do I care so much? They're triggering for Why Do I Care So Much a different narrative. Right. And if they can, if this individual can work to separate those two things. That would be a really strong start. Yes, yes. Figuring out why. Julie doesn't like my feedback and that's about Julie.
• 24:46
  Separately, Julie not liking my feedback triggers a different thing in me that's about me and not about this situation actually. For sure. And you know, they haven't given us the details. We can't open up that can of worms with them. Right. Though I'd love to. But if they can separate that could be really good. Okay. yeah
• 25:13
  Let's do final answers, personal takeaway, including- We didn't really talk about it that explicitly, but what's your final answer to this person who's giving a question, any personal takeaways you have, and also as part of that final answer to them, if you have any, you know, just quick tidbits on how to more effectively give feedback. I know we didn't get into that, but hey, that's also part of it. So many opinions.
• 25:38
  You know, when somebody is like an A-plus jerk, there can still be small things we can do to try and manage said A-plus jerk. Yeah. Ugh. I think you summed it up quite well, you know, about identifying which issue is yours, which issues are, that the other person has their own issues and hopefully they have the maturity to take that on. And maybe later they'll give you an apology for, you know, if they did react poorly and that does happen.
• 26:06
  And I think my takeaway is first of all, Letter Writer, good on you for giving feedback and putting thought into it. I think it's such an important part of the job and it's treated as perfunctory because sometimes places just do that and it is hard to do well. And I think it's very important. And I think what I had been taught and what I've learned about feedback: I brought up compliment sandwich earlier and I hate that so much.
• 26:31
  But I think what works best is if you're giving feedback constantly, the frequency of it is really important. So instead of like one big feedback session once a year, twice a year, you do it a little bit at a time throughout the week, throughout the month, every day if you can, right? It just, I think, can intercede into a process earlier and so it may require less feedback because you're like course correcting a little bit earlier.
• 26:58
  But I also think it sets up a better dynamic to give and receive feedback more frequently. And then it just doesn't hurt as much, at least for me. I f I sat down after a year and my boss was like, "Here's one year's worth of feedback." Oh my God. "From a project you worked on nine months ago." You could have told me this nine months ago. "Here's what I've secretly been harboring about you!" That is exactly how I take it and I'm sure that's how they meant it. But, you know, that is my tip for feedback, right? The frequency. Don't just wait until like a one-year review if you can, right? I love that. It just benefits everybody better. A little counterintuitive, but yeah, I love that.
• 27:33
  Okay. I think my tip on feedback specifically, also maybe counterintuitive: don't come in with the solution. I think we're primed to think that way, like goals should be specific and actionable, blah, blah, blah. Smart goals. Don't come in with the solution, especially somebody who's defensive or has their own power and security, whatever. Come in with the problem statement. "Hey, I have to-" And you don't have to do it in a way that makes you seem meek or like less than.
• 28:02
  You need to say, hey, this situation happens. Like when we work on this process together, this is what it looks like from my side, and it's kind of hard for me. What do you think about that? And now the problem isn't them, it's this third thing that's separate from me. It's something you're working on together. I love that. You guys are the team working and the problem is the enemy, you know? Yeah.
• 28:25
  That's great framing. So yeah, it just, it can alter that power dynamic. It doesn't always work. You know, sometimes people don't get the picture or they, they decide, you know, I'm just not even going to take your problem seriously. And that's, that's it!
• 28:38
  It's actually a good thing to, if that's how they react, that's good information to have about them. Because now their defensiveness is like, is something way harder. If they are that impenetrable that you can't even present a problem to them, that is really something to go to your boss to. That is something that is like a bigger piece of feedback. That's like a real workplace issue, particularly if you're going to interact with them a lot and have to work with them a lot. And I have, there's a story for another day.
• 29:08
  Definitely, I have- I took notes once. I re-read an old journal article- Article. A journal I wrote about a workplace issue. Oh my God, it must have been bad. Yeah, where this guy was like that. It was so bad. Yeah.
• 29:24
  One thing I learned from this is sometimes we're going to learn only through experience. Yup. I think that thick-skinness that I have developed has come through these really unexpected life experiences, like leaving my job and giving them a ton of notice, like my marriage ending. Go there. A lot of things like that have taught me a thicker skin, becoming a parent. Yeah. And I don't know if it's something you can work on always.
• 30:03
  But to the degree you can, I think it's what we concluded, which is try to separate out the stories. Right. Don't make story A, they didn't take feedback well, about story B, that sometimes you feel insecure. Yeah. Just make them, create some distance between those two things. Yeah, and it's not bad to care! And it's not bad to care. It's very human to have feelings and in fact, I think, very wonderful. Yeah!
• 30:24
  Good luck to you, Letter Writer! Good luck to you. Thank you for your question, Why Do I Care So Much. Don't stop caring. We love that! Yay. But hopefully you also got some good tidbits or ideas from this conversation that will help some of those like heavy moments at work feel a little bit lighter.
• 30:45
  That's it for this week's Sunday Scaries: Work Edition. If this episode resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review!
• 30:55
  Got a workplace horror story or a burning question? Send it our way at sunday.scaries.work.edition@gmail.com. We might tackle it in a future episode. Or just have a good private laugh.
• 31:10
  Sunday Scaries: Work Edition is produced by Emily Tao and Bijal Mehta. Our theme music is by Bitter Old Men and artwork is by Erin Leeder. Until next week: may your inbox stay manageable and your work-life balance tip towards life. Bye!