Latest / The Virtual Couch / Trisha Jamison, Host of the Q&A Files Podcast on Overcoming Emotional Immaturity for Better Relationships

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Trisha Jamison, Host of the Q&A Files Podcast on Overcoming Emotional Immaturity for Better Relationships · The Virtual Couch

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Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of a virtual couch podcast network production.
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I think I'm gonna have to work with that a little bit. You might be hearing
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this on the virtual couch or maybe waking up to narcissism, but welcome aboard
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to, I will call this a bonus episode of whatever it is that you're listening to right now.
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And before I get to today's topic, please go to TonyOverbay.com.
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I've updated my website, sign up for the newsletter and follow me at virtual.couch
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on Instagram, at Virtual Couch on TikTok, and give me your questions,
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your comments, whether it's about parenting or marriage or your faith journey
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or faith crisis, emotional immaturity, you name it.
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Feel free to send that through the website, or you can email me directly at
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contact at TonyOverbay.com and bookmark Patreon.com slash Virtual Couch.
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So much coming in the not too distant future.
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Let's get to today's episode. So the original plan, I was going to bring on
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a good friend of mine, Tricia Jameson.
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She is the host of the Q&A Files podcast to discuss an article that I found
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about relationships and trust.
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But if I am being completely honest, I can't even remember the specifics of that article now.
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And that is actually perfect because what ended up happening instead was so
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much more meaningful, so much more raw, organic, authentic, all of those wonderful therapy words.
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The Q&A Files is a wonderful podcast that I actually co-host with Tricia,
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who is a life coach and a functional nutritionist, and her husband,
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Dr. Jeff, who is a family physician.
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And what we normally do is we take listener questions about,
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you name it, health, relationships, mental health, mental wellness.
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Really anything that sits at this intersection of all of our different areas of expertise.
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And while I love, I absolutely love doing the show. It's something that I look forward to every week.
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I realized recently that I rarely talk about it on my own podcast on any of the shows.
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And so I'd wanted to change that to introduce my listeners to this other project
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that does bring me a whole lot of joy.
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It's so much fun. But sometimes I think the most powerful conversations happen
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when you set aside your planned agenda.
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And as Tricia and I started talking, we found ourselves diving deep into her
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personal journey from being a very young runner whose golf professional father
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made her give up a running scholarship to play golf instead,
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to then finding her voice as a speaker and a coach who now helps others navigate
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their own past to emotional health, to mental well-being, and we explored what
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it means to heal from emotional immaturity.
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How we learn to validate ourselves rather than constantly seeking it from others,
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and then this delicate balance, I think, of maintaining hope while you're still
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acknowledging pain about things that you've been through in your life.
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What I had initially thought would be a very structured discussion about an
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article grew into this raw, honest conversation about growth and about finding
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our authentic selves and about how we use our own healing journeys to help others
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and even what that can bring up in us as we try to help others.
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It turned into a very perfect example of what we do on the Q&A files.
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We bring our different perspectives and we bring all of our personal experiences.
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Into the podcast to help people see their own challenges in new ways.
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Because we acknowledge often that we are just giving our perspectives and each
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of us have different ones on someone else's problem or challenge or question.
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So I may have failed at my original mission of doing a neat and tidy episode
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review of a Psychology Today article with Tricia.
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I think that we ended up with something way more valuable.
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And I hope that by the end of this conversation, that you'll not only take away
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some insights about your own journey of growth and healing and acknowledging
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that you can fit pain in with some good experiences, but then you'll also want
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to join us over at the Q&A files.
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I'll have all the links in the show notes where these kind of deep and meaningful
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and I think fun discussions happen every week.
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Let me take you to this conversation with Tricia.
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Oh, and you are going to hear me talk about a situation with Facebook Marketplace
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that was still an unresolved mystery at the time of this recording.
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So please stay tuned until the end of the episode where I will pop back on with an update.
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It does not necessarily show the very best version of myself because it takes
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a very interesting turn that I never saw coming.
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So with that said, let's get to this interview with Tricia Jameson,
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where we're going to jump in and you're going to hear the intro to the Q&A files
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and Tricia taking over from there. Take it away, Tricia.
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Music.
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Hello and welcome to the Q&A Files, the ultimate health and wellness playground.
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I'm your host, Tricia Jameson, a board-certified functional nutritionist and
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lifestyle practitioner ready to lead you through a world of health discoveries.
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Here we dive into a tapestry of disease prevention, to nutrition,
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exercise, mental health, and building strong relationships, all spiced with
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diverse perspectives. It's not just a podcast, it's a celebration of health,
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packed with insights, and a twist of fun.
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Welcome aboard the Q&A Files, where your questions ignite our vibrant discussions
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and lead to a brighter you.
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Tricia Jameson, welcome to both the virtual couch and I think waking up to narcissism
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and while we're at it, maybe love ADHD, murder on the couch,
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the mind, the mirror, me. I might run this everywhere. How are you doing? There you go.
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And a Q&A Files as well. Okay. And let's jump right into there.
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So Tricia and her husband, Jeff, are, I was going to say my co-host.
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I think I'm your co-host. I feel like you're the chief...
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But I didn't want to say bottle washer. That's what comes out next.
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But you're the main host of a podcast that I'm involved in that I really enjoy called The Q&A File.
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So maybe first talk about that and then we'll get to today's topic.
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Yeah. So we have listeners that will send in any kind of question on medicine.
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So my husband, Jeff Jamison, he's a family physician.
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I'm a functional nutritionist practitioner and a life coach.
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And then we've got Tony, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist.
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And so all three of us have a lot to cover.
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And so we'll have people that will come in and ask all kinds of questions from
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health, mental health to relationships, any kind of nutrition,
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exercise, medicine, anything like that. And it's just been a lot of fun.
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It's been so fun to have one. And it's funny, I just started smiling because,
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yeah, I think I've tried to, you've mentioned things like, oh,
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don't eat too much candy. So you'll give some like whatever. Right.
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Right. And then, or maybe we need to sleep. Dr. Jeff will say,
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but then we'll also have like a mental health thing.
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And I really like that angle of, I think when we were first kicking it around
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before we started recording it, it just, I liked the idea of here's a thing
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that we're going to talk about and here are the three different angles.
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And sometimes we're fairly similar with what we say and other times,
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not so much. And that's the whole idea is we want to have different perspectives.
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So I think it's been really fun. And yeah, sometimes we get to sit in our discomfort. Yes.
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You're not agreeing with me. I know. Right. And that one's a funny one too.
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And then every time we start, you ask for celebrations of what's gone well.
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No, I'm not. And so do you have a celebration? What's been going on well in your life this week?
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Oh, there you go. Yeah, here we go. Yeah. my celebration is we.
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Are literally a week away from moving.
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And it's been all summer and spring.
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It's taken every ounce of energy we've had. Yeah.
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And going from a much bigger home to a very much smaller home has been quite
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a process, getting rid of everything.
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And yeah, it makes you realize in 21 years, all the things that you require,
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especially from six kids, because we have a lot of stuff from our kids.
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Yeah. They have left and we have to worry about their things as well as our own.
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But yeah, this is so not the topic today. And I know we're not going to end
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up with enough time, but have you guys tried to sell anything on Facebook marketplace?
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You know, it's really funny because we were going to sell our piano.
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We had a grand piano, Kauai, and I think we had it up.
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I think we got it for 10 grand years ago, long time ago.
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Let's go through all of our kids and playing piano, but we put it on Facebook
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marketplace and they, somebody had come in with $4,000 that they had offered.
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And we're like, I said, you know, I wonder what it's worth.
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Let me just check and see what it's worth. So we had someone come out and did an appraisal on it.
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Guess what it was worth. I've seen antiques roadshow before, like a hundred grand.
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No, no, no, no. Well, no, it's going to be $29,000. Oh, dang.
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Okay. I know. No. So, I mean, we were thinking about selling it for four and
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then we find out that it's worth a whole lot more.
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And so that was fun. But yeah. Are you taking it with you?
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No, I think we're just going to get it all shined up and we'll probably then
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sell it. Oh, gotcha. Yeah.
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Now that we know what it's worth and we've got papers for it and everything. So it's kind of cool.
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So the only reason I mentioned that is when we were moving the psychology of
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Facebook marketplace, I'm literally writing a podcast episode on it because it's insane.
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You try to sell something and then you can hit a little thing that says, is it still available?
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So you get 10 different people that says, is it available? And at first the
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rookie in me, I respond to him as if,
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these people are very, very interested in my stuff. And then they don't follow
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up or then, okay, I'll be by, can you hold it? Sure.
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And then they don't show up and they don't show up and it's just mind blowing.
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But then we were going to buy something, this mirror for the garage and we're on the way over.
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We tell the guy, we'll take it. And then almost there. And he says,
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Hey, I, sorry, I sold it to somebody else.
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And so then I go back home and I want one. So all of a sudden I'm clicking,
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is this available? Is this available? Is this available to everybody?
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And all of a sudden I'm doing it.
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And so then when somebody finally responds, I don't go back and say to the other
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eight people, hey, I think I found one.
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So then, and I realized, oh, I'm just as guilty.
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And then I've got a whole tangent, which is for another day,
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but about when people are in the world of online dating, when they're getting
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back out there after relationships or younger people, and there's so much ghosting.
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And I just thought, oh, it's the same thing.
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You swipe on somebody and you're basically saying, hey, is this still available?
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Is this still available?
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And then they find the person that they're going to go to see if that's a good mirror.
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And then they don't tell all the other people that, hey, I think I'm going to
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date this person. I think I'm on to something. I think you are too.
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Okay. You need to keep on on that train of thought. Yeah. Man,
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this is not the topic today, but it's so fun to just talk about this.
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So then I make a post because we have one bookshelf left and that we're trying
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to get rid of on Facebook Marketplace in Arizona to the point where I'm trying to give it away.
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And even then people are saying, I'll be right by and they don't show up.
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I don't hear from them again.
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So I make a hilarious post about it. And then I basically lay out the,
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I want to do a podcast about this.
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And I post it on this Facebook page in the city in Arizona that I live in now.
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And then the next morning, I thank goodness I'd forgotten about it.
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Because the reason I say thank goodness is back in my days of wanting nothing
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but validation, I would have been checking every five minutes to see if somebody
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thought it was hilarious or fun or reacted to it.
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And so I forgot. And then I wake up the next day and nobody's responded.
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So I think, oh man, I really did care more than I thought.
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Well, then I go look at the notifications and it's nowhere to be found.
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As a matter of fact, the whole page is gone and it was thousands of people.
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So yes, I found myself just thinking, okay, did I get blocked?
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What just happened? right and i don't
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know that is the mystery of facebook marketplace so
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did you finally take it to goodwill no because i i spent
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too much time writing a hilarious post i'm gonna post it somewhere i gotta find
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some you just gotta keep it i do i know probably all right so that is that is
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not what we're talking about today the reason i asked trisha to come on today
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is i wait a minute yes what's your what is your celebration oh i did not plan
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one i know i'm really enjoying our grandson.
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He has little dimples and he smiles and laughs and I can get him to smile at
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me all the time. It's amazing. And then I get to walk away when he starts to cry.
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And you hear about that, how fun that is. And it really is. So, I'm enjoying that.
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We're talking about virtual couch and waking up to narcissism today.
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Trisha is a part of the women's group that I have that is part of waking up
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to narcissism for women who are in relationships with narcissistic.
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I always say fill in the blank. And I feel like it's some old timer going that
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narcissistic fill in the blank, but it's, it can be a spouse. It can be a parent.
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It can be a, an adult child. It can be a boss. It can be a sibling. Yeah. Anything.
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And so, and Tricia is a very positive person, almost to the point where I think
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when we started the group, we've talked about this a little bit where maybe
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everyone isn't always excited about that positivity, but I really do appreciate it.
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And you've really found a nice place there and help a lot of people,
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I don't know, raise their emotional baselines and tap into their values and
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do the things that help them. And that's my really long-winded way also of saying very positive.
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Trish is an incredibly positive human being.
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I am a couples therapist now for almost 20 years. I don't know,
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1,600, 1,700 couples. I love it.
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But a lot of the population I work with is the emotionally immature or heading
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toward the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies.
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And so, that isn't the only people I work with.
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Half of my clientele when I'm seeing 20, 25 couples a week are people that didn't
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know what they didn't know. They get the tools.
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It's a little bit uncomfortable. and then they grow together and they live happily
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ever after. It takes a little bit more time than that.
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But a lot of who I work with are the people that, yeah, both are both.
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I mean, we're all emotionally immature until we're not. That's what I like to say.
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And so, then we come into relationships and then we're codependent and we're
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enmeshed and we're trying to figure ourselves out.
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And sometimes somebody has had enough of their own wounding from childhood that
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the more that one person gets healthy or heals,
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the other person kind of pushes even harder against that because they need that
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person to stay back in this enmeshment or else all of a sudden they're exposed.
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And it's a lot easier to blame your spouse for everything than to.
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See your spouse heal, which you always, we think, no, I want them to be the
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best version of themselves.
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But then sometimes when that person starts to differentiate and evolve,
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it leaves the partner who it was a whole lot easier to say, well,
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it's your fault to now the light shines on them and they have to do their own work.
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So, there are times where then that doesn't go so well.
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And the whole marriage therapy piece is exposing the incredible immaturity in one partner.
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And then And it's giving the other partner more clarity.
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And that will often, it's such a long one away for me to say, might lead to divorce.
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Because even as a marriage therapist, I still feel like my hope is that I can
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save every marriage. But there are people that are in unhealthy relationships
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and it zaps their whole sense of self.
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And so, then I noticed this article called How to Build Trust in a Relationship.
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And then as I was reading them, I was knocking all of them down.
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So, then I reached out to Trisha and I said, hey, I think I got an idea for
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podcasts. Can you come on and give the positive spin to these?
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And I'm going to acknowledge that I do know that there is a positive spin,
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positive way, but I'm going to give the narcissistic slant. Trisha,
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how do you feel about that?
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I think that this is going to be great. Well, and there's in our group,
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there was a really good post and there's an account on Instagram that I really
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enjoy. It's called The Secure Relationship.
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And the person, her name's Julie Menino, and she has an amazing book that I
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bought called Secure Love.
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And so, I really like it. And especially because the account itself has a lot
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of cartoons and I like cartoons. Well, there you go.
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Right? I'm going to have that. Yeah. But somebody in our group posted this and
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it says a new perspective.
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And the post, it has two little birds on a couch and then another bird in a chair.
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And one says, my partner is a selfish narcissist. The other one says,
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my partner is irrational, emotionally unstable, and it's borderline personality disorder.
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And so, I think those are the two birds that are in a relationship.
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The other bird who's a therapist says, maybe that's true, but another option to consider is.
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And then the couple birds cut back in and no, my partner's a selfish narcissist.
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And then the bird as a couples therapist says, that's an option.
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And when you don't have any other way to make sense of the problem,
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that can feel better than not knowing or blaming yourself.
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But before you attempt to make that diagnosis, let's consider another option.
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Maybe your partner hasn't yet learned how to access and express emotions.
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And of course, it hits you as cold and distant.
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And then Julie goes on to give a really nice explanation of what you see often and couples therapy.
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But the people I know that some of the people in the group have taken a little
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bit of, I don't want to necessarily say offense to that, but it can feel really
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invalidating when you are starting to maybe even wake up to your own immaturity
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or definitely the immaturity in the relationship and you start to grow and use
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the tools and the other person.
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Pushes even harder against those. And I know that we've also had some,
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man, I apologize, Trisha, I'm just on a roll here.
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But I know that we've also talked about in the group where if you go to a therapist
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that doesn't understand the dynamics of this kind of a relationship,
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that they can just be really, really validating to the more emotionally immature
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or person with the more narcissistic traits and tendencies, and that only gives them more fuel.
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And then the person that I identify as the pathologically kind leaves there
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feeling completely gaslit and hopeless.
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And so, I just think this is a bit of a, there's a lot going on here.
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And so, first of all, yeah, your thoughts before we get to the article.
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So, my thought, first of all, is I think it's imperative to validate both.
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Because like in my situation, I grew up with a father that was definitely a
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narcissist, like in all.
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We've talked about that a lot. Yeah. Alcoholic. Like he was a golf professional
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and every part of his life was perfect and he wanted perfect kids.
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And yeah, but I was the last number four and I played golf. And so he wanted me to be the golfer.
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Well, I didn't want to play golf. And so it led to a lot of contention because I was a people pleaser.
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I wanted to make sure that I kept the peace. And so I basically,
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even though I love to do other things, like I was a runner, did very well in
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running, but to keep the peace, I tried to follow what he wanted me to do and
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not pursue my own happiness.
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So tell that one story where you had one where you even felt like he had told
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you, right, that if you do a certain thing or then you don't,
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was it that you could run or you don't have to play golf and then that he wasn't,
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he didn't follow through. Yes.
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So in high school, I actually had a high school record that I kept for 33 years,
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but I got a scholarship in running.
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And early on in when I was in high school, my dad said, okay, well, you can run.
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But when you go to college, you're going to play college golf.
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And so I thought I'm going to work so hard to show him that I'm going to be
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the best runner I could possibly be.
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And for sure, he will understand where my heart is. And it's not golf.
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And sure enough, graduation day, I got received this amazing scholarship and
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from running. And he looked at that and he says, throw it away.
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So I had to throw it away and went on to play college golf at BYU.
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He did every moment of it. Did you, man, right?
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I did because I, where my dorm was, I actually overlooked the track.
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Wow. And I got to see these amazing athletes running around the track and doing
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all the things that I wanted to do so badly.
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And so, yeah, it was really painful, but...
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So that was my life. So it was easy to then marry into a relationship that continued that journey for me.
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And until I grew up and learned how to think for myself and to recognize some
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of my own behaviors that were creating
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the enmeshment and how to remove myself or to kind of take a look.
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And from a bird's eye view and be able to see, oh my gosh, this is what I'm involved in.
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And until you learn those tools. And thankfully, my husband at the time, he didn't know either.
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He didn't know what he was doing, but it was just a natural thing for both of
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us because the way he grew up, we talked to Jeff and I talked about this on
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our last podcast, actually, and you weren't on there, Tony.
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So, this will be a great segue here for those that want to listen to that one.
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But, you know, we just talk about how we grew up, kind of formulated those characteristic
20:07
traits within each of us and how we continued down that road as unhealthy as it was.
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And so we were able to both take a look at that and recognize,
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wait a minute, this is not a healthy relationship. What do we want to do different?
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And, you know, he probably is an unicorn because he has a great desire to change. Is he perfect?
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No. Am I perfect? Absolutely not. But we work hard together to continue to change
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and grow in ways that are going to propel us in a positive direction.
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I appreciate that so much. And this is the funny thing when Trish and I talk,
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when we're just like preparing for a podcast or just talking about the group or anything.
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Trish is so positive that I think today I want to say we're giving each other
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permission to yeah, but one another.
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So, yeah. So here's your, where's your, yeah, but go ahead.
20:54
That was a good segue. But it's, it's even when you said both of both people
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need to be validated and it's like they do,
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but it's interesting because I think that a therapist that doesn't recognize
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emotional immaturity is not only validating because that's the,
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and I love this one dealing with the emotionally mature is that they're used
21:11
to either being agreed with or disagreed with. And if they're agreed with, all is well.
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If they're disagreed with, well, then you obviously don't understand.
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And now it's almost like it's second nature to now put you in the one down position.
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Well, I didn't say that. Or I can't believe you don't understand that.
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Or, well, that's not the way I know it.
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And I call that, it's not just narcissistic fuel, but you're giving them a run at confabulation gym.
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It's like, oh, yeah, please tell me I'm wrong because then I know what to do with that.
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And so then I do agree that validation, but it can be like, oh,
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well, I can understand if that's how you feel that then it seems like that's all you can do.
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The example I get with this one often is if I get the, I know I was going to
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say the narcissist because it's a mouthful to say extremely emotionally mature
21:53
person with narcissistic traits and tendencies all the way up to narcissistic
21:55
personality disorder one time.
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But so, the narcissist though, again, they truthfully aren't being curious about
22:01
maybe their spouse's experience.
22:03
They want to convince the therapist most of the time that.
22:08
No, if you understand what I know, then you will join me and we will aggressively
22:13
triangulate against my spouse and then they will finally understand yeah yeah
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right or him wrong depending on who the right i'm just thinking our group no
22:22
i totally i was gonna say but i get enough feedback sometimes like it's not
22:24
always the guy it's not always like okay well.
22:27
Yeah but in that scenario though it's and in that point i feel like i'm trying
22:32
to to model to the pathologically kind person that if that is how that person
22:37
feels then i can understand why they're frustrated. That's that version of validation.
22:41
I'm good with, but what you'll hear then is like, oh, Tony agreed with me.
22:46
Well, no, Tony didn't disagree with you. So, then you assume if it's not a disagreement,
22:50
because that's part of that black or white thinking, then it's an agreement.
22:53
So, I love that right out of the gate when you're saying they both need to be
22:55
validated. I'm like, yeah, and, but that validation is even something that looks different.
22:59
So, there's a part of me that wants to, honestly, do you have a yeah, but to that?
23:02
Well, my thought when I made that comment was when we were going through some
23:11
of those discomforts that we had to sit in and recognize our own behaviors that we were,
23:19
whether it's we were focusing on what we wanted.
23:25
Or defending our egos or any of that.
23:28
Right. But I think I'm the, I'm more of the kind person and he was, he's a physician.
23:35
He, and he talks about that, you know, how he.
23:39
They have a lot of recognition and they have to, there's a lot of responsibility
23:43
they have. They're saving lives and making hard decisions.
23:46
And so when he comes home and he would act a lot like that with me,
23:51
and I didn't know how to stand up for myself at the time.
23:56
And sometimes his tone would be really harsh and I'm not like that at all.
24:03
And so he has learned how to talk to me in a way that doesn't hurt my feelings.
24:09
And I've had to talk to him in a way that I'm way more direct.
24:13
So I guess when I was talking about validating, it's we're validating each other's
24:19
position and recognizing- Even if there's a silly, is what we're saying.
24:23
Yes, even if there's silly, right.
24:24
And so it's focusing on the purpose, the forward motion, what is it that we
24:31
both want? And sometimes it's messy in between.
24:34
But when you've got someone that's really working towards having a better,
24:39
healthier relationship, that's the validation.
24:42
I don't necessarily mean the validating of someone that is- Like their opinion.
24:46
That means every opinion that comes out of their mouth. Right.
24:49
Yeah. You know, that's not what I'm talking about.
24:51
I'm talking about somebody that really is trying and is still making mistakes for sure.
24:57
We both do. but now really Tony
25:00
utilizing your four pillars has been
25:03
the biggest game changer for us and just really
25:07
and we don't even think about it anymore it's just their second nature
25:10
and I we never thought we'd get to that
25:13
place where we didn't even have to think about it it just is something that
25:16
we just kind of fall into and honestly I feel so validated from that because
25:22
that whole process of becoming I think people don't how can you understand that
25:26
if you don't If you haven't experienced it and it is, we don't know, we don't know, we know,
25:31
we don't do it very often. Then we start doing it more than we don't.
25:34
And then it just is, you become, and that is, it's amazing.
25:37
Well, and when you're in a healthy relationship, you want to validate your partner.
25:42
And so being part of that process, that's what we do.
25:47
We do validate, we're listening, we're being curious, we're asking those questions.
25:50
We're, you know, we're not shying away from each other. We are leaning in.
25:54
We're doing all the things that really make a relationship what you're hoping
26:00
it to be. When you look at how far we've come.
26:04
It's just like literally night and day. So it's been a tremendous amount of
26:08
work and we work out it every day.
26:10
But yeah, that's the validation piece.
26:13
Okay. And here's what I like. So we're yes anding, we're not yeah butting.
26:16
So what is interesting is if I can share that story of early on in the group.
26:21
And I remember this where when I think it seemed like you were a little bit
26:24
frustrated with how some of the reactions of people were when you were trying
26:28
to insert that positive or hey, maybe there is a chance for things to change.
26:32
And it is because you guys did, you were able to change and that was pretty profound.
26:36
And I remember you saying to me, it was a, to me, it seemed like a really profound
26:41
moment where I think I was saying, well, I'm saying this is the population I'm
26:45
working with that they're here,
26:47
that they're, they've been trying to get this change for a long time.
26:50
And it seems like the harder they try, most of the time it seems to get worse
26:53
because the immature person is so immature that they need that person back in
26:58
that role that they've been playing.
27:00
And so then I think at one point, if you remember this, you might've said,
27:02
how many people have you seen that?
27:05
I don't know. Do you remember this conversation? Oh, yes. Okay.
27:08
And I was kind of like, oh, actually, not really anybody at that point. Maybe like just one.
27:15
Yeah. And that was like. I think at the time you had three. Okay.
27:18
Three people that had really made that shift.
27:21
And then you came back and you said, ah, maybe it's just two now. Yeah. Yeah.
27:25
And I just mean that with this is, and it goes back to that secure attached
27:29
relationship Instagram post where the couples therapist in me would love to
27:33
help everyone save their relationship. And you do have the tools because you've
27:37
been doing it for a long time and you're offering those.
27:40
But then if somebody is incredibly immature, every tool is a weapon.
27:45
No. And they, so they take that and then they're like, you're not for pillaring
27:48
me. Not, oh, I need to learn the four pillars or in this world of differentiation,
27:52
I just see this happen over, I'm going to sound dramatic over and over.
27:57
But if everything is a me thing, which has been so empowering for me for differentiation,
28:01
why do I need this person to know? Why do I need this person to calm down?
28:05
Why am I feeling this way about this situation?
28:07
But then that immature person takes it and they're saying, oh, so that's a you thing.
28:11
So, it gets out of their discomfort. They're like, well, you don't like the
28:15
way I talk? That's a you thing. Instead of you don't like the way I talk,
28:18
I need to self-confront.
28:20
Am I saying something in a harsh way? So, I think that's what's so interesting
28:23
is, and you do the couples therapy as well. So, I'm not trying to discount that.
28:27
And it's been very fascinating too, because I've been working with several women in the group.
28:32
And, you know, at first, I think that they find that it's a lot different.
28:38
Spouse. And then as we go through the experience of just learning new tools
28:44
and helping them understand that there's different roles to play,
28:49
then they start to go, oh, wow.
28:52
Okay. So I do have a role in this. What is my role? What can I do different?
28:58
What choices do I have? And so I think sometimes it's allowing them to recognize
29:03
that there's so many choices.
29:06
But when you've got a spouse that is trying to
29:09
move forward and trying to do
29:11
those things and sometimes gray rocking and doing
29:14
all those things that you would normally would do with somebody that is definitely
29:19
in a different space doesn't work because then when the spouse is doing the
29:25
same thing that the wife is doing and then they're like well you're stonewalling
29:30
me and they call it other so it's not the same,
29:33
you can't do the same actions and expect these results because they are now
29:41
learning and growing in a way that they can move together because they both
29:47
have the desire, even when things are messy.
29:50
And a lot of times it's like, well, you know, I've got a lot of triggers from
29:55
past experiences. And so it's learning how to stay present, to stay in that space. Yeah.
30:01
It's 90 seconds whenever there's an emotion for that, those chemicals to go
30:05
through and to flood through your body.
30:07
You get to decide, okay, so am I going to stay in critter brain,
30:11
the emotional part of my brain and react poorly?
30:13
Or am I going to ask myself some questions, get my CEO, my prefrontal cortex
30:18
back online so I can think through this and recognize, is he trying to hurt me?
30:24
What's happening right now? And so then when you can start asking yourself some
30:27
questions, then you can calm down and And you can be curious and ask,
30:32
okay, so what did you mean by that comment?
30:34
Or, you know, help me understand where you're coming from.
30:37
And then have that dialogue instead of it being such an affront.
30:42
Yeah. What I so appreciate about this and when we talk about this is because
30:46
you've had some experiences where you've been able to learn that and you know it.
30:51
You are speaking from a place of integrity with that.
30:54
You're not just saying this is an idea I've heard about. So,
30:57
that will help people, I think, get through it faster.
31:00
And then, but I think even as you're saying that, I know that this is kind of
31:04
almost back to that post again, that people that aren't there still feel so
31:08
unheard that if you say that stuff too early, then they're just thinking, you don't understand.
31:14
It is. And I think that's one of the things I think we, yeah,
31:16
we realized that really well.
31:18
And that's why I, again, I make the joke all the time that I missed the day
31:21
of therapy school where you're not supposed to work like life coaches.
31:24
Cause I really think that shows right there where you can help say,
31:27
Hey, this is where we need to get to. And I do feel like more of what I'm used
31:32
to doing is saying, where do you want to go?
31:34
Because I think they want to go there. And most people do.
31:36
But then it's like, it's scary. And how do I do it? And so then I love saying
31:41
the... And then if you don't, if you're unable to do what you want to do or
31:45
what maybe a good life coach is guiding you toward, then I can work with that. Let's now look at that.
31:50
But the fact that you can speak it because...
31:53
And this is a current fixation of mine because I'm realizing that as I'm learning
31:57
more about being differentiated and I'm sitting with that discomfort and I'm
32:00
self-soothing that I can express myself from a place of integrity as it grounded.
32:06
And it turns out I don't need the validation. It doesn't rattle me.
32:09
So, now all of a sudden, I want to talk about it. And I think about I can talk
32:11
about being very, very emotionally immature, recovering from that or having
32:15
ADHD or having this cure and the anxious attachment or those sort of things.
32:19
And I've realized now that man, if you have not experienced it,
32:22
I have a hard time talking about eating disorders because I really don't know
32:25
what that's like. I'm not even trying to insert a joke in here.
32:28
But right, so that's where I think you can do a lot of good,
32:32
very powerful because you really have spoken to this or have experienced some
32:37
of these things that you're teaching, but people still just want to push that, don't they?
32:42
Oh, yes. And they push hard. Yeah.
32:45
And sometimes it is. I'm in this group And I volunteer all my time and I put
32:53
classes together and sometimes I have handouts and do all fun things.
32:56
You do. You're very fancy with that.
32:58
But then it's, man, I'm here for them.
33:01
I'm here to give them hope and have something potentially to hold on to.
33:06
And sometimes they don't want that. They want to just take time to feel all
33:13
the feelings and go through that process. and that's imperative.
33:17
You have to. I had to go through all that.
33:20
I had to, and it was messy. And you know, Tony, it was messy. It was ugly.
33:25
And it was, but now being on the other side of that, I can share that it gets
33:30
better and it's brighter and a sunnier day.
33:33
And you have opportunities that you may not see at the time when you're just
33:38
so full of misery and despair.
33:41
And so that's what I'm trying to help.
33:44
Pull them through and help them see, you know what it does.
33:48
There's so much more that you can see and feel and be part of and be present and come with me.
33:57
Yeah. And I appreciate, of course, when you shared that I'd been there with
34:02
you and we can even edit that out or, but I'm grateful for that because that's
34:05
why I want to just say, it's like, man, you know what you're talking about.
34:08
Maybe even when I'm going to get to the things for the article is fun though.
34:13
Cause I want to ask you, cause you said something a little earlier that when
34:15
you were saying, and I love it so much where my whole mission with the Waking
34:18
Up to Narcissim podcast was trying to say, okay, narcissism is what,
34:22
three to 5% of the population.
34:24
We throw it around like it's 70, 80%, but let's start talking about we're all
34:27
emotionally immature because then it's easier to take ownership of my part.
34:30
And then I can maybe look across the street there and I can acknowledge,
34:34
okay, I wanted to just blame them because that, then I wouldn't have to maybe
34:39
acknowledge what I've been doing.
34:41
And so, it sounds like you were saying a little earlier there that,
34:44
yeah, once you get to that different place, you can see your own part.
34:48
Is that what you're saying?
34:49
Parts that I've played. Absolutely. How hard is that? Is that hard?
34:52
Because that's a powerful moment when I see that in a session.
34:55
So, this is interesting.
34:56
I've always grown up that everything's my fault. So, it actually wasn't a hard
35:00
thing for me at all. Not a leap. Not a leap. Yeah.
35:02
And I think when it was easy for Jeff, because I would apologize all the time
35:08
and I recognize all the things that, you know,
35:10
and I would, even if things weren't my fault, just to keep the peace,
35:15
I would make it my fault or be responsible for it just to allow,
35:20
just to keep the status quo.
35:22
And the more that I fell into that trap, then I.
35:27
As I'm married and I'm teaching all these ridiculous concepts to my poor children
35:34
who now have had to work with undoing a lot of things,
35:38
because the last thing you want to do is you want your children to be empowered.
35:43
You want them to feel of your strength, not to watch you be pummeled and just
35:51
being treated poorly at times.
35:53
And I think that it definitely, I had that personality that I always,
35:59
I seem to be, at the time, I felt like I did a great job being in the shadows
36:05
and just making everybody else shine.
36:08
And I've done that my whole life. I would just be in the background,
36:12
but boy, I worked so hard for the person that whatever it was.
36:19
And so, for Jeff, I made him shine.
36:22
And I think the thing that I had to recognize is not everything's my fault. Yes.
36:29
And that I had to be okay with allowing other people to take responsibility.
36:34
Yeah. So, that might sound really weird. Oh, it sounds powerful.
36:39
Look at the golf example, even right there. I've never looked at it that way
36:41
of that you made your dad look good because he could say that he has a college
36:45
golf person on a scholarship.
36:47
And he did not want, he didn't want to say, I have somebody running because
36:51
he was a golfer. So that was, yeah.
36:54
I hadn't thought of it quite like that. And what's funny, I hadn't either,
36:56
cause my son, Jake, he got this full ride basketball scholarship and played a year.
37:00
And then he decided that he didn't want to do it anymore. Actually,
37:03
ironically, to play golf, pursue golf.
37:05
But when he did that, I was really learning a lot about differentiation.
37:07
And I realized how quickly I wanted to say, man, bud, but I had adjusted my
37:12
therapy schedule so that I could go to the games. I could go on the road trips.
37:15
I could work from hotels, I was looking forward and I really enjoyed saying,
37:20
I have a college basketball playing son.
37:23
It's wild because I wanted to do that growing up.
37:27
Yeah, I know. I was having a moment there on your behalf when you're saying,
37:31
because that was you doing it for somebody else.
37:33
And I was grateful that he didn't say that's a you problem, bro.
37:36
But I mean, basically he didn't, he had been hopefully raised well enough where
37:40
he just said, I don't want to do this anymore.
37:42
And I was so proud of him. Yeah. Well, good for him. See, and I didn't have
37:46
that strength at the time.
37:49
And now Jeff, he's always maintained, I want you to do whatever you want to
37:54
do and go live your dreams. And he's been supportive of that.
37:59
But I think I have held myself back because we're living his dream. He's a physician.
38:07
I don't have room or there's no time for me to pursue any of my goals because,
38:13
and I would never change being at home and being with my kids because that has
38:20
been the most fulfilling thing that I could ever do.
38:24
And I have loved every minute of it. But at the time, it was like,
38:27
I don't have the confidence to do anything different.
38:33
And I was definitely confident in being a mom and all those things as a mom.
38:37
And I, like I said, loved every minute of it.
38:39
But then there was a time I had that opportunity to go back to school,
38:44
to learn, to credentialed in lots of different areas.
38:47
And it has made such a difference in me and who I've become and who I am continuing to become.
38:56
And it's just been, it's been pretty exciting. And yeah, to stand up by myself sometimes.
39:01
And it's funny is I love to speak.
39:04
Yeah. And which is interesting because most people that they don't,
39:09
they're like terrified.
39:10
But to stand up, I like become a different person.
39:16
And i love that i love that i
39:18
can just be someone else and even
39:22
though i'm me and i'm sharing my own stories is i don't know there's just something
39:25
that overtakes me that i just love yeah i thought about that was so much because
39:30
i really i also love speaking i've done it a bunch too and i think i've wondered
39:36
that because i know that i've worked with people that are actors that people
39:39
that are politicians people are that they put on almost this false front and
39:42
then you can sometimes in a good therapy setting,
39:44
get them to acknowledge that, oh, that's the false self.
39:47
It's like acknowledging the mask they get to wear. But I've wondered before
39:51
about, oh, I think that I just like validation a lot.
39:55
Although at the point where then I finally found myself in therapy and really
40:00
loving everything about it.
40:02
Now I realize, oh, now that I'm okay, I don't want the validation.
40:06
And I remember early on, even in the podcast, I wanted nothing more than to
40:10
get the email saying, And this is great.
40:12
And now you'll go back a few years and now it's, I don't like I'm, because I'm okay now.
40:18
And I think that's been an interesting shift, but it's also caused me to almost
40:22
not, I still love speaking and I'll do it any chance I get.
40:26
But I think I used to be almost aggressively looking for opportunities to do
40:30
it where now if I'm given an opportunity, I'll do it in a heartbeat.
40:34
And so I've almost felt that internal shift of I'm good now.
40:38
So I would love to share my talents, my experience, where before it's,
40:42
I think I'll feel better if I can go talk to people and they tell me I'm awesome.
40:46
Okay. Yeah. I can appreciate that. I started to really, there was a woman by
40:53
the name, her name's Sherry Dew.
40:55
And she like, I don't know. I remember hearing her when I was about 12 years
40:59
old and she would just incorporated some really fun stories, very inspiring.
41:05
And I thought I wanted to speak like her.
41:08
Yeah. And she just planted the seed inside of me that, I don't know,
41:13
there was just something about her presence and her positivity and her fun and
41:19
just her in-depth wisdom that just really gravitated towards.
41:25
But this will be, I've been asked to speak again at the Women's Leadership Conference in November.
41:31
That's awesome. Yeah, in Charleston. I'm excited about that.
41:35
So, that will be my, I think that will be my third one.
41:37
But those are experiences that I would normally I, with my personality,
41:45
be really nervous to do, but I look so forward to it.
41:49
Okay, Tricia, can I, because I know I've got a client in five minutes and I
41:52
don't want to end this as abruptly as we're going to have to,
41:55
but when you just brought that up, I have to tell a funny story because I watched
41:57
you speak at the one, what was the one in Washington? Is that the ship conference?
42:01
It was in Louisville. Louisville. Oh, the one that was online?
42:05
Okay. My bad. Watch me edit this out.
42:08
I really won't, but I was about to say, oh, the one in Louisville, but it
42:11
was really funny because Tricia let me know about it and i i was like
42:14
oh i'd love to see that happen but then you were keynoting that
42:17
one and you were telling me that some of the former people that a keynote were
42:20
like the ceo of it's like meg whitman or these people like that and you were
42:23
joking right about they're gonna find and say oh our bad we didn't mean for
42:27
you to be the keynote that was funny but then you got there and you were the
42:31
real keynote you did a great job that was fun yeah yeah okay.
42:36
So I might end up taking 10 minutes and speed running through the 15 things
42:40
of tomorrow morning before I record an intro. But thanks so much for taking the time.
42:43
I think this was really powerful to hear about that healing journey,
42:47
a little bit of the differences between therapist, coach, and then everybody
42:50
go check out the Q&A files.
42:52
I'll put the links in the show notes.
42:54
And then one of these days, I think I've been promising to run a bonus episode
42:57
on the virtual couch for, I don't know, a couple of years now,
43:00
it seems like, of the Q&A files.
43:02
So I need to run one of those as well. I think we've got a couple of them.
43:05
Yeah you've even sent me the audio i think
43:08
that yeah i think they're fun but please everybody go check that out trisha
43:10
jameson tell dr jeff he missed a good one hey everybody
43:13
all right i'm jumping back in here with a facebook marketplace update that i
43:17
had promised i hope that you enjoyed that episode with trisha and please go
43:21
and subscribe to the q a files okay maybe not my finest moment but you know
43:26
how in the episode i was talking about my mysterious disappearing post and I
43:31
wondered if I had been blocked.
43:32
Well, mystery solved. And it's actually kind of funny now, six months later,
43:36
it turns out that I had been banned from my neighborhood Facebook group.
43:41
And I have to admit that revelation did a quick number on me at the time,
43:44
because in all my years, I don't think that I've ever been banned from anything in my life.
43:49
And I think it's almost comical now, especially since I had completely forgotten
43:53
about this entire experience until I was literally editing this episode of this
43:57
conversation with Tricia.
44:00
And I think as a therapist, I often talk about how time can give us perspective
44:03
on things that feel momentarily very overwhelming.
44:06
And I think this is such a perfect example. Something that felt surprisingly
44:09
impactful in the moment has become honestly nothing more than a pretty amusing
44:14
anecdote half a year later.
44:16
So it's a nice reminder that sometimes the things that throw us off balance
44:19
in the moment don't actually deserve the mental real estate that we give them.
44:23
With that said, however, I do want to now share with you the letter that I posted
44:28
in my neighborhood group.
44:29
So to set the stage, I had been in this neighborhood group just reading the
44:34
comments for a while. I probably had liked a few things. I don't know if I had
44:36
ever really commented on anything.
44:38
And when I do read this and this is where I want to be so raw,
44:41
I think I was seeking a little bit of validation. I think I wanted to say,
44:44
hey, everybody, I'm new here and I would like some validation,
44:47
please, because I just moved from a place that I've been for over 30 years where people knew who I was.
44:51
So here's the post. Hey neighbors, first, here's a bookshelf,
44:55
and so I included a picture, that I would like to give to a wonderful home for free.
44:59
The shelves are adjustable and the measurements are 84 by 48 by 14.
45:02
That's all you need to know about the bookshelf. Speak up in the comments below.
45:05
First in line, you can have it.
45:06
Now, with that out of the way, I have a much larger purpose with this post that
45:09
has to do with the aforementioned bookshelf and the very platform that we're
45:12
communicating on, and I could use your help.
45:14
I'm now working on a podcast episode about the psychology of Facebook Marketplace.
45:18
If that is of interest, well then please read on.
45:21
Backstory. I'm a marriage and family therapist who recently moved to Arizona
45:23
after 30 plus years in our previous home in Northern California.
45:27
As I am learning, it is often the case we brought along things we realized we
45:30
didn't need when we got here.
45:31
This experience led me down a fascinating rabbit hole, the psychology of Facebook Marketplace.
45:36
My Facebook Marketplace baptism by fire came when preparing to move.
45:39
It took over 50 messages across a dozen people to give away my piano.
45:43
Okay, technically we sold it for $1 and I learned that pianos aren't the greatest
45:46
way to cut your teeth in the Facebook Marketplace arena because they are heavy
45:49
and will need to be retuned, etc.
45:51
The spectacle was something to behold. People setting appointments only to ghosts,
45:55
wanting a video of it making sound when you hit the keys, asking if I can verify
45:58
if all 52 keys responded at a specific rate, others wanting to trade,
46:02
and one person trying to pick a fight because I wouldn't pay him to haul it off.
46:05
The amount of time and emotional calories spent was truly epic.
46:09
We hope things might be different here in Arizona. At first, it seemed promising.
46:12
Someone actually contacted me. We exchanged messages. They showed up,
46:15
bought what we agreed, and even took extra items.
46:17
But just like that, we were back to what we call in my profession,
46:20
a trauma bond or intermittent reinforcement.
46:23
Facebook marketplace gives you the thrill of a sale along with the frustration of being ghosted.
46:27
The thing that punishes you also gives you the reward. So when you're feeling
46:31
punished, you naturally want to turn to the punisher to make things better.
46:33
Other examples are our phones. As we moved here in mid-March,
46:36
I think the weather here does the same thing.
46:38
And don't get me started on the, is this still available messages for listings
46:41
with multiple items, 10 things listed. Is this still available?
46:45
I got to the point where I thought I was being rude when I'd reply with yes,
46:48
only to find out that nobody was responding to the messages regardless of what I said or did.
46:53
I spent more time than I care to admit answering questions and holding items for no-shows.
46:57
We've even been on the receiving end. On my way to pick up a piece of gym equipment
47:00
where I didn't even try to talk the seller down on price, I got a text about
47:03
10 minutes out and he said, sorry, I decided to sell it to a friend.
47:07
That was the first piece of this particular gym equipment that I had attempted to purchase.
47:10
So I didn't even hit the, is this still available button? I just went in and
47:13
said, okay, we'll take it Venmo.
47:15
Okay. So all of a sudden I'm now determined to find another piece of that same gym equipment.
47:19
So then I see one and okay, I see another and another. So what do I do?
47:22
I start happy clicking. Is this available? Is this available?
47:25
And before I knew it, I wasn't even sure whom or where all the places I clicked
47:28
that button were on one occasion. I thought, Oh, I really liked this one.
47:31
And I clicked on it and there was my message to the seller. I'd already clicked.
47:34
Is this still available?
47:35
In his book, Atomic Habits, James Clear says, it is the anticipation of a reward,
47:39
not the fulfillment of it that gets us to take action.
47:41
The greater the anticipation, the greater the dopamine spike.
47:44
Combine this with the concept of a trauma bond and you've got something that
47:47
could almost be diagnosed as an addiction.
47:49
And shameless plug, I think here's where I went wrong. While I do now work with
47:53
more couples and people struggling with their own emotional maturity,
47:55
I spent over a decade working primarily with people and their unhealthy coping
47:58
mechanisms, addictions, and impulse and compulsive behaviors.
48:02
I'm preparing a podcast episode about this topic for my mental health podcast, The Virtual Couch.
48:06
It's been around for almost a decade with over 400 episodes,
48:09
10 million downloads. Holy cow, I was so looking for validation.
48:13
And so I say, if you're still with me, I would love to hear about your Facebook
48:16
marketplace experiences, your seller experiences, your buying experiences.
48:19
And again, yes, I'm looking for these stories to add a bit of humor to the podcast.
48:23
If you decide to share, I'll assume you're okay with me sharing on the podcast. I won't use your name.
48:27
You're also welcome to share a story and let me know if you prefer it to not be on the show.
48:30
Please share them in your comments or direct message me. Oh,
48:33
and if anybody wants a bookshelf, I'll give you a dollar to take it off my hands
48:36
because it'll make for a great ending to the episode.
48:40
So I thought that was pretty clever, although now it does reek with to validate me.
48:45
It really does. But I thought it would be a fun exchange and people would share
48:48
all their stories and it would be this great thread.
48:50
Then I realized I was banned. So here's what I shared to the following two moderators
48:53
of the group. I said, OK, not sure if you get the message, but just in case.
48:56
First, I hope you're well. Second, I was just curious and I come in peace.
49:00
I posted a message in the neighborhood Facebook page trying to get rid of a
49:05
bookshelf. And admittedly, I thought the post was kind of fun.
49:07
And then I asked for people's experiences with Facebook Marketplace. I'm a therapist.
49:10
I have a podcast called The Virtual Couch, and I'm working on an episode about
49:13
the psychology of Facebook Marketplace, and I thought some funny stories from
49:16
people would add to the episode.
49:18
The next day, I went to check the post, and the group wouldn't come up,
49:20
and I was honestly so confused.
49:21
I was telling a client about it, and they mentioned that I might have been banned.
49:24
I didn't think about that at all, because quite frankly, I've never been banned
49:27
for anything in my life, so my wife pulled up the page on her Facebook, and it was there.
49:32
And so now I'm just really puzzled, and I'm truly hoping there was just a misunderstanding.
49:35
We moved here a few months ago, and I am loving Arizona. I think I'm about as
49:40
easygoing as one could be.
49:42
And I do, boy, I really, I just was saying, validate me.
49:47
Look how cool I am. I was saying, I do mental health podcast.
49:49
I do a lot of volunteer speaking to help people struggle with mental health.
49:52
And I was really wanting to get involved in my new community.
49:54
And I saw that you were the admin. So I thought you might be able to shed some light.
49:58
And I said, thank you. And then the person responded back and said,
50:02
I'm sorry about the post, but apparently one of our admins or moderators took
50:05
your post to be self-promoting, which we don't allow.
50:07
If you want to rejoin the group, I'll let you in, but you have to mind our rules.
50:10
To which I said, ah, I can totally see that. Okay. Yeah. I would love another shot.
50:14
I was promoting the podcast a bit rather than just asking the question,
50:18
but admittedly, I thought people wouldn't answer the question unless they knew
50:20
about the podcast. I would love to join again. Thank you so much.
50:23
And then about a week later, I said, Hey, to this person's name.
50:26
Hey, thanks again for offering to let me back in. I've searched.
50:29
I still can't find the group. When you have a second, can you let me know if
50:31
there's anything that I need to do on my end. Thank you.
50:33
And you could see that they had read the message. And then here we sit, February 4th, 2025.
50:39
I'm still not in the group, but all is well. It truly is.
50:43
Thanks for listening, everybody. I hope you have an amazing week.
50:45
If you did listen this far and you do have your own funny Facebook Marketplace
50:48
stories, please send them my way. And I will make good on this episode that
50:52
I half wrote a half a year later.
50:54
Thanks, everybody. And I will now take it back to the ending of the Q&A files.
50:58
Back to you, Trisha Jameson.
51:02
Thanks for tuning in to the Q&A Files. Delighted to share today's gems of wisdom with you.
51:07
Your questions light up our show, fueling the engaging dialogues that make our
51:11
community extra special.
51:13
Keep sending your questions to trishajamesoncoaching at gmail.com.
51:17
Your curiosity is our compass.
51:19
Please hit subscribe, spread the word, and let's grow the circle of insight
51:23
and community together. I'm Trisha Jameson, signing off.
51:26
Music.