Latest / The Virtual Couch / Live Q&A with Sydney Overbay: Perception vs. Reality, Emotional Immaturity and Growth, Faith Deconstruction, ADHD & More

Transcript

Live Q&A with Sydney Overbay: Perception vs. Reality, Emotional Immaturity and Growth, Faith Deconstruction, ADHD & More · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Okay. It's going. Is it going? We're horrible marketers. Is that fair?
• 0:03
  We're not. I wouldn't say we're horrible marketers. Well, I thought you said
• 0:06
  we're horrible markers.
• 0:07
  Markers, maybe. We're not markers. If there was anything, and this would be,
• 0:10
  oh, let me clean my glasses with this thing that you can buy on the store.
• 0:15
  But I don't know if you can, quite frankly. But it is kind of an amazing gadget.
• 0:17
  But you don't wear glasses.
• 0:18
  Tony wouldn't know because he doesn't look at any of the people that are trying
• 0:22
  to brand with that. What is it called?
• 0:24
  Collab. That's what the kids say. My bad. Yeah. Hey, thank you.
• 0:27
  For those who have reached out and have wanted to partner with us,
• 0:30
  Sydney looked at the messages a couple nights ago, and apparently you should
• 0:35
  probably look at them more than every couple months. We're going to look at those. But welcome.
• 0:39
  I am your friendly marriage and family therapist, and I am here with my wonderful
• 0:46
  daughter, Sydney. I lost my phone. Okay.
• 0:49
  You took it out with you when you went outside to the car. Oh,
• 0:53
  are you going to go check it out? No.
• 0:56
  Okay. It's weird. Okay. I say, cause that's, is that weird? That was like the
• 1:01
  first time you ever lost your phone. Was that, was that an odd experience?
• 1:03
  Yeah. That was like really unlike me. How many times a day do you think you lose your phone?
• 1:08
  I've never, I just don't ever know where it is ever. Yeah. That.
• 1:11
  And then honestly, what's your, what percentage power are you on? 82 actually.
• 1:17
  So doing big things. Okay. All right. That's fine. You know,
• 1:20
  it's funny. And I don't think that I have, I can say I can diagnose myself as
• 1:23
  a mental health professional.
• 1:24
  I know that I do not have OCD, but people will sometimes show me screenshots
• 1:29
  of texts when they're having arguments with their spouse or partner.
• 1:32
  And then I will immediately focus on, okay, why don't you keep your phone charged
• 1:35
  more than 5%? Because what if there's an emergency?
• 1:38
  Because I will see that often. So it's not just you, Sid.
• 1:41
  No, I'm saying when somebody shares their phone with me or they send me screenshots
• 1:44
  and they're saying, hey, I want to talk about this this week in therapy.
• 1:47
  Can you look at this exchange that I had with my spouse? And then the first
• 1:50
  thing I go to is, what percentage is their battery?
• 1:53
  And I don't know. I don't know if I'm making judgments. I mean,
• 1:55
  I can't. I am probably making judgments. You're judging me because I don't charge
• 1:58
  my phone? I know. I'm used to you not charging your phone.
• 2:01
  That means nothing. There's no judgment. So we are here to answer your mental health questions.
• 2:06
  I am not your therapist, but I would love to hear what you have going on.
• 2:10
  And I would love to expound on that, offer some general advice.
• 2:14
  But again, I'm not your therapist. I hope that you will all go find a wonderful
• 2:18
  therapist that you connect with.
• 2:19
  And I have something to open tonight with today. This is the afternoon.
• 2:23
  We're trying this on a Saturday afternoon and we're normally doing this at night
• 2:26
  and this might be the first daytime that we've ever done.
• 2:30
  Did you talk to me? Yeah. What? Oh, I just said this might be the first time
• 2:33
  we've done this in the day. Yeah, I think so. I'm kind of excited.
• 2:36
  And for anybody who is new, I am a marriage and family therapist.
• 2:40
  I've been doing couples therapy for almost 20 years, and I actually very much
• 2:44
  enjoy couples therapy. So I'd love your questions if you are in a relationship.
• 2:47
  It doesn't have to be married. Long-time relationship, new relationship.
• 2:50
  Also, we can talk about general mental health. I, as well as my daughter Sydney,
• 2:54
  are card carry members of the ADHD fan club. So we can address things about ADHD.
• 2:59
  And I also work a lot in the world of narcissistic traits and tendencies and
• 3:04
  emotionally immature behaviors.
• 3:06
  Also, faith journey, faith deconstruction, faith crisis.
• 3:09
  So, we'd love to have your questions. Sydney's going to be manning the questions.
• 3:13
  I think I'll bring them up here.
• 3:15
  Womaning, personing the questions. That's kind of funny. Do you take offense
• 3:18
  to those kind of things, Syd?
• 3:20
  Sometimes, when I'm just feeling like having fun. Okay.
• 3:24
  So, I wonder though, So I wonder if Manning even has an origin story of a guy
• 3:29
  doing it or if it is just a word.
• 3:31
  I don't know. Yeah. And I am not going to Google it. But I have something that
• 3:34
  I think I can start off with tonight that is our muse.
• 3:37
  And I don't think I talked about this a few nights ago. And if I did,
• 3:40
  I'm imagining maybe you had forgotten anyway. That's not meant. Whoa.
• 3:44
  Do we talk about the Dartmouth SCAR study? No. Okay. I don't know. Okay.
• 3:49
  I've got a podcast coming out on the virtual couch this week.
• 3:52
  It's the one that you have told me. And it was great advice.
• 3:54
  Do not go and rerecord, old man.
• 3:55
  Just go with what brought you here. But I started off with, this is really,
• 3:59
  really interesting. So I would love your thoughts on this.
• 4:00
  So in 1980, there was a psychologist and he conducted an experiment at Dartmouth College.
• 4:05
  And students were told that they were participating in a study about how people
• 4:09
  with facial scars were treated in their social interactions, their everyday lives.
• 4:13
  The researchers brought in a professional makeup artist and they gave them a
• 4:16
  really big graphic scar on their face. Harry Potter.
• 4:20
  That's the first thing I think of too. I can't lie. I really can't. That's funny.
• 4:23
  And i but this was in 1980 before harry potter so no one probably had the lightning
• 4:27
  bolt scar also pause yeah anyone who's listening did i put a filter on him on
• 4:32
  accident what do i look like like you're from the olden days okay i don't know
• 4:37
  how i feel you're just old no i'm just kidding i don't know how i feel about
• 4:40
  this i feel like you look like dark here look at my phone okay,
• 4:44
  doesn't that look weird.
• 4:47
  But i look normal you can't tell oh no now i
• 4:50
  do oh yeah okay wait i've even got the back camera hannah
• 4:53
  what's hey hannah okay why why
• 4:56
  do i look like uh i don't
• 4:58
  really know okay here you go so i don't
• 5:01
  either i could like fix up like before
• 5:05
  it goes on youtube but i don't it's okay i don't know how i
• 5:07
  did you know what people don't come to see me to stare.
• 5:11
  At a model looking therapist they come for
• 5:13
  the advice is that that's where
• 5:16
  you're supposed to go oh my gosh no you look great no you look
• 5:20
  beautiful tony oh thanks don't worry i look great
• 5:23
  right here yeah you do well i was gonna say that too and i was like
• 5:25
  okay i don't want to sound creepy or anything okay and i'm gonna
• 5:28
  pull up here as well i want to be able to see what
• 5:32
  people say as well so we're gonna do that okay but
• 5:35
  this is a scar study though said so this professional makeup artist puts a
• 5:37
  scar on somebody's face and it's a very dramatic scar and
• 5:41
  then what they're told is that they're going to go interact with people
• 5:43
  and they're going to report back of what it felt like
• 5:46
  to have people judge and discriminate them so much because
• 5:49
  of this big scar so you following okay now
• 5:52
  here's where it gets very interesting the makeup artist then right before
• 5:55
  the people went out then the makeup artist said hey i need
• 5:58
  to put some setting powder is that still a thing yes okay
• 6:01
  so i'm gonna put some setting powder to make sure the scar looks realistic so it
• 6:04
  won't smudge when you're interacting with people what the participants did
• 6:07
  not know is that the touch-up artist then removed the scar entirely but
• 6:10
  then the people didn't know that so they went out into the
• 6:13
  world and they thought they had a big old scar and so
• 6:15
  then they're interacting with people believing they had this visible facial
• 6:18
  scar when in reality they looked completely normal to everybody encountered
• 6:20
  how did they not like pass by a window i know and i think the same thing sorry
• 6:24
  i'm really annoying with this kind of stuff but i thought the same thing my
• 6:27
  first thought was jokes then my next thought was like okay setting powder versus
• 6:31
  wiping a complete scar off my face but that is not the point, Sid.
• 6:34
  And what do you want to see it? That'd be cool. I would want to see what I look
• 6:37
  like. But they did. And then they're like, oh, hang on, a little touch up powder.
• 6:39
  And then that's where I don't know setting powder. Does it feel like somebody's
• 6:41
  wiping a complete washcloth across your face?
• 6:43
  But that is not the point of the story, Sid. Okay.
• 6:47
  Okay. But so the people that they believe they had these scars,
• 6:50
  they reported that they were treated incredibly differently because they perceived
• 6:53
  stares and awkward interactions.
• 6:55
  And they interpreted that as being discriminated because of these facial scars.
• 6:58
  They felt judged and marginalized. And they felt like they were responded to
• 7:02
  that it was clear evidence that people discriminated against them
• 7:05
  because of the scar but there wasn't a scar your perception
• 7:08
  is your reality absolutely yeah and it's just
• 7:11
  a trip so where i went with that with this podcast is that
• 7:14
  our beliefs about ourselves and our circumstances are so
• 7:17
  powerful that they will shape our reality and you can even look at this all
• 7:21
  the way down to the way that we talk to ourself and this is why i think i don't
• 7:24
  know in our home i often when somebody's saying i'm so dumb or and i'm saying
• 7:28
  that is not very helpful let's go check this out this is what I'm thinking versus
• 7:31
  don't say that about my friend that's right okay exactly oh wait did somebody
• 7:35
  send something in the comments or are you talking to me.
• 7:38
  What? No. Okay. But if you think about this, they weren't people who were lying to make things up.
• 7:44
  They were experiencing their reality through this lens where they thought people were judging them.
• 7:48
  I think it requires you to be kind to yourself and the way you think about yourself.
• 7:52
  And it's funny because what you said, I jotted that down in my outline of the cliche,
• 7:57
  your perception is your reality, even if it's to your detriment,
• 7:59
  or if it's to the detriment of a loved one or a relationship or an ideology
• 8:03
  or a belief system or religion, because we're so hardwired to create meaning,
• 8:07
  which I think that's pretty fascinating.
• 8:09
  And we want to know, we want certainty, we got to create meaning and we want
• 8:13
  to avoid uncomfortable things.
• 8:14
  So you can see how powerful the mind
• 8:17
  can be in just creating all kinds of narratives to make us feel better.
• 8:20
  And so then the rest of the podcast goes about talking about how that's why
• 8:25
  I think it's so hard to change people's beliefs.
• 8:28
  And I know that we can make the argument of, well, I should not necessarily
• 8:31
  be trying to change someone else's beliefs. But what if their beliefs are kind
• 8:34
  of silly? But I mean, who's to say that their beliefs are silly?
• 8:36
  I feel like you just have to live as your most authentic self.
• 8:40
  And then anyone who is ready to change when they see that, they'll change.
• 8:45
  You know what I mean? And I think that is the goal.
• 8:47
  The thing that's interesting is when you say that, though, my first thought
• 8:51
  goes to what if you're in a relationship or friendship with people who are unwilling
• 8:55
  to think critically or even admit the fact that they may not be correct in what they're experiencing?
• 9:02
  And that might sound like, well, why do they need to know that it's incorrect?
• 9:05
  But what if what they are doing or saying is affecting or harming other people?
• 9:09
  Yeah. It's like that thing where people can only meet you as far as they are.
• 9:14
  Yeah. So, you know? Yeah. Wait, do I just swipe?
• 9:18
  Oh. No.
• 9:22
  I was going to say, if there's somebody that knows, then maybe they can...
• 9:25
  Should I just end it and start it again really quick?
• 9:27
  I don't know. I think we're good. Well, what do you think? I think that we're
• 9:30
  going to end it and start it again really quick. Really?
• 9:31
  Okay. So, will people come right back? I'm going to make you move back really
• 9:34
  mad. Okay. Yeah, don't... Right back.
• 9:37
  Okay, profile. Now, why is Jesus over here? Wait, what do you mean? Don't worry about it.
• 9:43
  Wait, what are you seeing? It's fine. It's not you. It's me.
• 9:46
  I don't know. Okay. I'm just going to, it's not that bad.
• 9:50
  Do I look different though? No, you look fine. Okay. You're very kind.
• 9:54
  I hope that people that come back that we're here because we had a couple of good questions.
• 9:58
  There was a guy named Horatio that had asked a question about needing a license.
• 10:03
  Oh, okay. The camera just twisted a little bit. Wait, whoa. It's like,
• 10:06
  I'm getting seasick a little. What are you talking? I just adjusted it. Okay.
• 10:10
  What I'm watching here, it's behind the time. It's behind the times.
• 10:13
  Okay. And let me just, let me tell your mom.
• 10:16
  That sounds like a funny cut, right? that we started so come on i was texting
• 10:20
  your mom right now too you were oh oh wow i love you wow.
• 10:31
  Okay that that you know it's fun though you're the first person that's done
• 10:34
  one of those jokes that i could hit you with that i'm ashamed okay hey everybody
• 10:40
  um i'll just i'll just leave no Oh, that was,
• 10:44
  so there's not a lot of people here right now, but yeah, my mom passed away
• 10:48
  about a week and a half ago.
• 10:50
  So Sydney just made your mom joke.
• 10:58
  It's pretty good though. No, that's like the first, I mean, it was nice.
• 11:00
  There we go. Okay. Xavier says licensed therapist, author, speaker, and podcast host.
• 11:04
  Right before we had to end so that we could get better lighting,
• 11:07
  I think Xavier had said, do you need a license for those things?
• 11:11
  So licensed therapist. Yes. So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 11:14
  You don't need a license for any other things. Author, write a book,
• 11:17
  speaker, find somebody who will say, come talk to me.
• 11:21
  And then podcast host. As I think we all well know, anybody can start a podcast
• 11:25
  for better or worse. And anybody will.
• 11:28
  Anybody, anybody can do that. You shouldn't. Yeah. But the licensing process
• 11:32
  to be a therapist was a get your bachelor's degree, get your master's degree,
• 11:36
  do 3000 hours of clinical work under a licensed clinical supervisor,
• 11:41
  take a couple licensing exams and then you
• 11:44
  get to sit with people and hear the most amazing stories in
• 11:47
  the world but you don't tell people what to do which is one of
• 11:50
  the number one assumptions that people make you got to try to get
• 11:52
  people to figure out what they want to do and help them figure out
• 11:55
  how to do it oh i was being semantic okay i'm gonna see that is good okay all
• 12:01
  right i do i do appreciate that that was good but look at me being very what
• 12:04
  was i being very literal that's what i was being yeah okay so we were talking
• 12:08
  about the dartmouth scar study and we could pick it up and pretend like nobody
• 12:13
  was listening the first time.
• 12:15
  I wasn't exactly well okay so
• 12:18
  tell me said this is where we're at so for anyone jumping on i will
• 12:21
  be so quick with this but the dartmouth scar study is
• 12:24
  a study that happened back in 1980 where people
• 12:27
  were given by a professional makeup artist dramatic scar
• 12:31
  on their face insert harry potter comment from
• 12:34
  last time kind of like it's groundhog day like harry potter there
• 12:37
  we go and then i say oh but it was 1980 that was before harry potter
• 12:39
  and then i think maybe you would make a joke about
• 12:42
  I don't know something about 1980 which I was I
• 12:46
  was 11 at the time anyway so
• 12:49
  the people have a big dramatic scar on their face they're going
• 12:52
  to go out interact with the world and it was to figure out how people treated
• 12:55
  them how people maybe discriminated or judged and then right before they left
• 12:59
  the makeup artist said let me put some setting powder on and then wipe the scar
• 13:04
  off completely and then the people went out and thought they had the scar on
• 13:07
  their face and then they reported back how they felt so judged.
• 13:10
  And that is just a fascinating study that says that the cliche that your perception
• 13:14
  is your reality truly is your reality.
• 13:17
  So, it takes a lot of work for somebody to, I don't know, have the courage or
• 13:20
  knowledge or the ability to
• 13:22
  self-confront or look critically at the things that they take for granted.
• 13:28
  Because if you don't, then you tend to then look for only things that align
• 13:33
  with what you think and how you believe.
• 13:35
  And then you end up in a little echo chamber and you find small groups
• 13:37
  of friends and before you know it you are a member of QAnon oh right
• 13:42
  yeah it doesn't have to go there it doesn't I was thinking about this and I
• 13:45
  started talking about this on the podcast that I recorded that started with
• 13:48
  the Dartmouth Scar Study and I had a person that was that was pretty deep into
• 13:53
  QAnon that is out now and then if I ever tell a story I'm changing the details
• 13:57
  I am a professional therapist who values confidentiality.
• 14:01
  But are you familiar with how that worked, Sid?
• 14:05
  No. So, here's what was interesting. So, let's pretend that there's like a leader.
• 14:09
  Let's say a president that isn't consistent with their message.
• 14:12
  We might even say they're not telling the truth about things, hypothetically.
• 14:15
  So, they go in one town and they say, I don't know, let's just say that I like
• 14:18
  dogs. And then they go in the next town and they say, I hate dogs.
• 14:21
  So, instead of people going, hey, this guy doesn't tell the truth,
• 14:25
  people were like, so he obviously tells the truth.
• 14:28
  So what's the message he's trying to say? So then he goes into the third town
• 14:31
  and he says, as a matter of fact, third time, he says, I actually very much enjoy donkeys.
• 14:37
  And then people are like and he says i've never liked dogs and
• 14:40
  i've never even said that i like dogs so then people are saying i mean
• 14:43
  we can literally review the tape and he said these things but he must be trying
• 14:46
  to send us a message and what's fascinating about that is we all have this desire
• 14:50
  to be part of a community wait the message is that he's lying though i believe
• 14:54
  so as well and that's why this is so fascinating though because you've got somebody
• 14:57
  that if they don't if they're unwilling to look at the fact that that is happening
• 15:02
  they're trying to create.
• 15:03
  Meaning off of the inconsistency.
• 15:05
  It's like they put so much power in one person that they ignore all of the power in themselves.
• 15:11
  That's literally just common sense that they are lying. It's not deeper than that.
• 15:15
  Absolutely. Okay. Look at Rebecca, my favorite therapist. Rebecca,
• 15:19
  my favorite TikTok person who was talking about their favorite therapist. Thank you.
• 15:24
  But Sid, I really, I like that you're digging on this and that is not me saying
• 15:27
  that what they are doing is wrong,
• 15:29
  but it does go into that thing where I find it not very helpful because then
• 15:34
  you get, let's say this person now has told over a couple of years,
• 15:38
  hundreds, if not thousands of lies.
• 15:39
  Then this person who was formerly QAnon that I worked with as a client,
• 15:44
  then they said that they would spend hours and hours trying to figure out the
• 15:47
  pattern of what everyone, a lot of other people viewed as just lies.
• 15:52
  And then they created a community or a forum and it was like,
• 15:54
  okay, who has the best ability to put these pieces together?
• 15:57
  And then which one feels like it. It's right. Because again,
• 16:00
  we don't want to feel uncomfortable.
• 16:02
  So, discomfort is really, really bad. So, we want to figure out a way to make us feel comfortable.
• 16:06
  So, then we try to create narratives about these inconsistencies over time and then say, okay.
• 16:12
  And then it makes everybody else in the group feel better.
• 16:15
  So, he said that he was so deep in it. And I finally said, what is it that kind of shook you?
• 16:19
  And this is what I think is kind of fascinating is there might be one thing.
• 16:23
  I think the person that was in the position of power finally told a lie about
• 16:29
  something about that had to do with something that his grandfather had been
• 16:32
  involved in, which he knew. He knew that was not the case. So,
• 16:35
  at that point, he was like.
• 16:36
  Wait a minute. I actually know that that's not true. So, is there a chance that
• 16:40
  the two years and thousands of other things aren't true as well?
• 16:44
  And then as you went and undid those things, then it all fell apart.
• 16:47
  And you find out that that's what happens a lot of times when people do like
• 16:50
  a faith deconstruction. So, let's say that, what are you thinking of that?
• 16:53
  This is so like on brand with like how religion like took over like all of the
• 16:58
  stuff before it, like just took their stories and changed it.
• 17:01
  Yeah. Yeah. And feel free to jump in and talk about that because I do a lot
• 17:04
  with people who are struggling with their faith. their faith community.
• 17:07
  And again, it starts from the place of that we all want to feel a sense of community
• 17:10
  and we want to find people that have shared experiences. We want rites of passage
• 17:14
  and social capital and rituals because those all make us feel better about ourselves
• 17:18
  and feel like we belong to a community.
• 17:20
  But one of the problems is if you're in the community, you don't want to be
• 17:24
  booted out of the community. So, a lot of times you will then overlook things
• 17:27
  that maybe are uncomfortable because of that fear that you'll get booted out.
• 17:31
  And a lot of times when I work with people that are in, let's say,
• 17:33
  a high demand religion that is not a fan of, let's say, alternative lifestyles,
• 17:38
  homosexuality, and then they have someone in their family, like a kid that comes
• 17:42
  out as gay, that's sometimes the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.
• 17:45
  And all of a sudden, I sometimes joke, that comes with a free faith crisis.
• 17:49
  It sucks that that has to happen. Something has to affect you directly for you
• 17:54
  to feel empathy about another group of people, though. Can we all just be nice?
• 17:58
  Okay. Well, and I'm glad that we're going here because now you
• 18:01
  go back and it goes back to that thing where like okay
• 18:04
  xavier which i was a lot of people yeah and so thank you like xavier
• 18:07
  i'm digging your vibe here tonight how do you or this afternoon how do
• 18:10
  you confront beliefs that you know are rational but will impact your behavior i might
• 18:12
  even if you're okay if i add to that or will impact your social standing
• 18:16
  or will impact your place in the community because
• 18:19
  i will have people that will be in in positions of power let's say with a
• 18:22
  high demand religion and then they have a faith journey or a faith crisis
• 18:25
  but their business or their sometimes even their retirement
• 18:28
  or their role in the family is so set or it is where it is because of where
• 18:35
  they sit in a standing with this community that then they don't want to confront
• 18:39
  beliefs that they now feel are irrational because of the fear of what they will
• 18:44
  be viewed as in their community. So back to how do you...
• 18:48
  I really believe that we go from a place of we didn't know what we didn't know.
• 18:52
  That so many of us, I mean, I know I'm walking around not knowing so many things.
• 18:56
  We're all stupid. Right? Let's start there from a place of good old humility.
• 19:00
  Because if somebody doesn't have at least that much awareness that there obviously
• 19:04
  are things I don't know, then they're not actually being, they're not looking
• 19:07
  for things that they may want to do a little more critical thought on or examining.
• 19:13
  So you don't know what you don't know. The next step that happens is you know.
• 19:16
  Now, you know, or you're starting to think about something, but you don't even know what to do about it.
• 19:20
  That's where we spend most of the time when you're on this path of change.
• 19:25
  And the unfortunate part there is that is where you can imagine things feel
• 19:28
  pretty uncomfortable because all of a sudden my world is different.
• 19:31
  All of a sudden, these things that I just took for granted or I thought were
• 19:33
  just absolute truths now may not be. And what would that feel like? Super uncomfortable.
• 19:38
  And again, Sid, if you've had experiences like that yourself or feel free to.
• 19:42
  Yes, I have. Yeah. And so, then what happens is, well, I don't like feeling
• 19:45
  uncomfortable, so now I need to go back into my community, my people,
• 19:49
  my faith, and I need to find things that will make me feel better.
• 19:52
  Yeah. This is for me when I left the church. It was like, I had inadvertently
• 19:57
  put my entire identity, my self-worth, my life meaning, everything that it meant
• 20:03
  to be me, every atom in my body was as a part of that church.
• 20:07
  And so, leaving it was literally terrifying and horrifying.
• 20:12
  Satisfying really that like discomfort turned
• 20:16
  out to be so much better than the
• 20:19
  comfort that i thought i'd been feeling in the church yeah
• 20:22
  because you don't know what you don't know and
• 20:25
  when you actually start to feel good you realize maybe you
• 20:28
  were feeling really bad for a long time you know and trying to tell
• 20:31
  yourself no no i'm good yeah you know i call that one the right guys
• 20:34
  like you're looking by you're right better like maybe that's how it's supposed to be
• 20:37
  yeah no you're supposed to be happy and you're supposed to be in charge of your
• 20:39
  own life well and i think one of One of those universal principles that we don't
• 20:43
  know until we know is that growth comes from discomfort and so we often are
• 20:47
  so afraid of the unknown or what might feel uncomfortable that then we will
• 20:51
  revert back to behaviors that are no longer.
• 20:55
  They no longer are in alignment with who we are, but we're just,
• 20:59
  we don't know what else to do.
• 21:00
  And so, what you'll often find is almost like this rebound effect where,
• 21:03
  all right, now somebody has new information, it's super uncomfortable,
• 21:06
  they will go back and try to double down on the beliefs or the belief system
• 21:10
  that they've always known because they want it to comfort them.
• 21:14
  But then the more they dig now that they are aware that, okay,
• 21:17
  maybe it isn't exactly what I thought it is, they may start to find even more,
• 21:21
  which now it's really uncomfortable. So it went from I didn't know what I didn't
• 21:24
  know to now I know, but I don't know what to do.
• 21:26
  Or it's just really sometimes people say, I wish I didn't even know.
• 21:29
  And then you move on to that. The next step is now I'm doing more than I did before.
• 21:34
  I'm learning more than I did. And it's starting to become more comfortable.
• 21:37
  But that you'll still find times where something will come up and be triggering
• 21:41
  and you will then feel super uncomfortable again.
• 21:43
  Yeah, but then you'll reach the point where it's I cannot believe I was ever
• 21:47
  not thinking like this. And you'll be so grateful.
• 21:50
  Sam said, hey, I was in here a while ago and I just want to say I made tons
• 21:53
  of progress since the last time and I'm very proud of myself.
• 21:56
  I got a new job for the first time. Sam, let's go.
• 21:58
  Hey, Sam, if you even want to give us a little, yeah, give us a little idea
• 22:01
  of what you were. Yeah, I love that you were in here a while ago and you've made tons of progress.
• 22:05
  I would love, yeah, that's a great update. And anything else you want to share,
• 22:08
  yeah, Sid, make sure we find that. Jen Design Store, I love when you're on.
• 22:12
  Probably talking about you, Sid. Jen, Sidney says thank you.
• 22:15
  She was talking about me. Yeah, she is. Yeah.
• 22:17
  All right. I'm thinking Xavier a little bit up there, too. people seem to crave
• 22:20
  meaning at any cost and that is a great way to put it
• 22:23
  we are meaning making creatures we our brain
• 22:26
  is a prediction engine we want to make sense of things and
• 22:28
  we're doing it if without even knowing there's a concept in a book called non-violent
• 22:33
  communication that i love it's by this guy marshall rosenberg who's passed but
• 22:36
  he talks about one of the one of the things we need to do is separate our observation
• 22:40
  from our judgment so anytime we are observing somebody we're making a judgment
• 22:43
  so if you are looking at me and the way i'm sitting right now and maybe i know,
• 22:47
  yeah, my shoes and my sock combo,
• 22:48
  most likely you're making a judgment, whatever that is.
• 22:51
  And I don't know what's a good judgment there, because I didn't even know you
• 22:54
  could see my socks and shoes in the frame.
• 22:56
  Sid? They're matching. Okay. Weirdo. Freak. Okay. We didn't have to go there.
• 23:01
  The one that people do this the most on is, and I love people watching,
• 23:05
  I'm not saying that you should not do this.
• 23:06
  It just is of if you see maybe not the most attractive guy with a very attractive
• 23:13
  woman. What is your first thought, Sydney?
• 23:17
  That they just love each other. I hate when you do this. Okay.
• 23:21
  You can't put me in this hole. Get back in the box, Sid.
• 23:25
  I often find myself thinking, why, that man must have a very good job and must
• 23:30
  make large sums of money.
• 23:31
  God forbid he has a personality. Exactly. But I mean, again,
• 23:34
  we just make these observations and judgments.
• 23:36
  So, one of the first beginnings of emotional maturity is to separate the observation from the judgment.
• 23:42
  I am observing that they are together and I'm making the judgment that he must
• 23:46
  have large sums of money.
• 23:47
  Because the danger there is when you
• 23:50
  approach someone then let's say it's one of your kids and they're
• 23:53
  not doing their homework and you say man it's because they're lazy then if you
• 23:57
  go in and say hey what's up champ and they're like hey i'm just not really feeling
• 24:00
  it today i've had a rough day in your mind you're like they're not even willing
• 24:02
  to admit that they're lazy so you you're making their and then you're projecting
• 24:05
  those judgments onto somebody and basically saying prove me wrong about the
• 24:09
  thing that is not true about you that i just made up that game is rigged,
• 24:13
  sorry were you talking about me no wait no no well you gave me this adhd sir
• 24:20
  so okay i did and you are welcome i was i clicked one time on something that was about an adhd.
• 24:27
  Something about being more organized something kind of silly like
• 24:30
  that and now every single thing and every algorithm of
• 24:33
  everything i own is all about adhd and the number
• 24:35
  of times that people say it's your superpower like that
• 24:38
  is such a buzzword which i do i dig it i like
• 24:41
  it but I don't know do you feel like it's a super power soon sometimes not
• 24:46
  all the time no tell me more pal I just hate
• 24:49
  it when I want to get stuff done yeah like it's
• 24:53
  the kind of important thing in life okay let's talk about this for one second
• 24:57
  and then any any questions at all Sam said I'm still struggling a bit but I
• 25:01
  feel like all those tiny steps finally culminated into big moves okay and Sam
• 25:05
  if you even want to share a little bit of what you're struggling with we will
• 25:07
  weigh in and provide amazing wonderful advice.
• 25:11
  Yeah. Well, okay. Let's go back to this. When you were struggling, Sydney.
• 25:14
  There's another one. Okay. Let's do that. As a mom and a teacher,
• 25:17
  I listen to people all day long, but don't get fed much intellectual conversation.
• 25:21
  Oh, okay. Cause I'm guessing, man, I want to know. Oh, she said that was Jen.
• 25:25
  She said, I love when you were on. Okay. Jen, thank you so much.
• 25:28
  And Jen, I'm so curious what age you teach and then how old your kids are,
• 25:31
  because I can only imagine a lack of the intellectual conversation.
• 25:35
  And then let's talk about that for a minute. Where would you,
• 25:38
  where would you want to go for intellectual conversation.
• 25:41
  Because I will tell you, I realize how much I love that about being a therapist
• 25:46
  is sometimes we are just talking about some relationship things that may seem
• 25:51
  pretty basic to some, but it's real to that person.
• 25:54
  And other times I've got somebody that's having an existential crisis in life
• 25:58
  and you're just, the session would sound crazy to somebody listening in.
• 26:01
  And I know that I do enjoy that.
• 26:03
  It's pretty stimulating. You enjoy existential crises?
• 26:07
  I do. I love talking to people about them. Yeah. And when we were talking earlier
• 26:10
  about when somebody deconstructs their faith or steps out of their faith community.
• 26:14
  I love that stuff. And there is a bit of a dark night of the soul that comes after that.
• 26:17
  Because if you have been trying to make sense of things for so long,
• 26:20
  we go back to your implicit memory or what it feels like to be you or me or
• 26:23
  any of us is based on the slow residue of your lived experience.
• 26:25
  So, if your lived experience has been continually trying to find ways to fit
• 26:28
  into the community and to make things work and all of a sudden those puzzle
• 26:30
  pieces start to not fit together, then people feel like, I don't know if anything is true.
• 26:36
  And this is a big thing in mental health that I love, the pendulum effect. It is all true.
• 26:41
  Often is met after, slowly after, is anything true? So then I'm going to go,
• 26:45
  ah, I need everything to be true.
• 26:47
  And nothing's true. And you eventually settle somewhere in the middle and it's not that scary.
• 26:51
  And that's where you even find yourself or you may even be closer to the divine, that sort of thing.
• 26:56
  Ooh, you're enlightened. I'm feeling it. No, seriously, this is good stuff.
• 27:01
  Oh, okay. You said something though. You said like something about the dark
• 27:03
  night of the solar. Yeah.
• 27:05
  I feel like that is important to talk about because so many people like that.
• 27:09
  Dark thing will happen. And then it's like, you immediately think that,
• 27:13
  okay, yeah, I need to run back to my comfort.
• 27:15
  But like that bad thing is happening because you are like, you're being born
• 27:19
  again. Oh yeah, that's good.
• 27:21
  The phoenix out of the ashes or whatever, you know, it's like,
• 27:23
  that's a good thing to be that uncomfortable.
• 27:26
  Yeah. And it's unfortunate that a lot of times we don't recognize that until much later.
• 27:30
  So it's a bit of a hindsight principle, because when somebody's in it and you
• 27:33
  just want to let them know, man, it's going to be okay.
• 27:36
  But to them, it may not feel like it's going to be okay.
• 27:39
  And I deal with that when people are navigating even things like divorce or
• 27:43
  big breakups in a relationship or just there's uncertainty. We just want to know.
• 27:48
  We crave it so bad. I want to see, okay, or see healthy parent-child discussion.
• 27:53
  So, listening to you both is enriching.
• 27:55
  Okay, Jen is saying that you are providing intellectual conversation, Sid. Yeah.
• 28:00
  Okay. I'm here all 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:04
  Okay. See, I'm okay. I had a hard time because of my childhood with allowing
• 28:07
  myself to experience negative emotions sam thank you very much give that give
• 28:11
  sam something sid wait a cookie or a high five okay do you know what do you
• 28:15
  want okay do you want to do that i don't this is not ready yet but do you know
• 28:18
  have you looked at that t-shirt that's right there beside my chair will you
• 28:21
  hold that up please sid this is my creation of now i've been waiting for this
• 28:24
  for a long time do you know this.
• 28:26
  Okay. I can't wait. It's just being and doing.
• 28:30
  Just being and doing. Because that's when somebody's like, hey,
• 28:32
  why'd you do that? Or what are you doing? What are you doing?
• 28:34
  It's like, I'm just being and doing. That's what I'm doing. I'm just being.
• 28:37
  Because I'm me. And I'm going through life for the very first time.
• 28:39
  I like how you put the white shirt on the dirty floor in the corner.
• 28:43
  That was good touch. People can't see behind the scenes, Sid.
• 28:46
  Can you put it back up on the shelf with the hanger, please?
• 28:49
  The shelf on the hanger? Yeah. On the coat rack thing that I have there.
• 28:53
  Okay, but Sam, let's talk about this. One of my favorite speeches,
• 28:56
  although when I say favorite, I mean, I'm so grateful to be able to talk about
• 28:59
  this stuff, but it is, we could cue the sad music, maybe do that in post-production, Sid.
• 29:03
  But it is why I'm so, so fascinated by the more we're starting to talk,
• 29:08
  I think, in the mental health world, which is all about emotions,
• 29:10
  but it seems like the last couple of years we're opening up about them more,
• 29:13
  or maybe I'm starting to figure it out finally after 20 years of being a therapist.
• 29:16
  But when you're a kid and you express emotions, even a good parent says, hey, calm down.
• 29:21
  Not a big deal, bud. you can get over it or just
• 29:25
  don't worry about it but what are we telling you because you're
• 29:28
  a kid you are worried about it it does seem like a big deal so we're
• 29:31
  basically giving you the message that your feelings yeah
• 29:35
  and your feelings are wrong like you you're even wrong about your own feelings
• 29:38
  champ so over time we stop externalizing our emotions we internalize them and
• 29:41
  we keep them deep inside so when they want to come out we already know well
• 29:45
  these are wrong so why what is wrong with me and so emotions start to just feel
• 29:50
  like they're bad i don't know what to do with them. So Sam, well said.
• 29:54
  And one of the best things you can do is just start to allow yourself to feel.
• 29:58
  And I so love that when you do, where do you feel?
• 30:02
  Because I find that people will feel the big feelings or emotions sometimes
• 30:05
  in their throat, in their chest, in their head, which are these the chakras, Sid? Yes.
• 30:10
  Okay, where do you feel? I already knew that. Well, I do, I think,
• 30:13
  but I know there's like seven of them, eight of them, nine.
• 30:16
  So, I don't know where they all are because I have wanted to go check that out
• 30:19
  because people will tell me they feel their feelings in their tummy or their chest.
• 30:23
  Like, I feel mine more in my chest. You should do that when you're meditating.
• 30:27
  Okay. I do have a meditation that has those. Yeah, and then you can like feel
• 30:30
  wherever you're feeling like tension or like blockages, you can like send like
• 30:34
  light and focus on that area.
• 30:36
  Okay. And that will like bring stuff up that you like maybe need to work through. Okay. Okay.
• 30:41
  And the trauma treatment resistant anxiety and depression. Hey,
• 30:44
  we should talk about this sometime too.
• 30:45
  When Sam, we're talking about treatment resistant depression is so one of these
• 30:49
  days we'll talk about the world of psychedelic assisted therapy,
• 30:52
  because I know ketamine has been FDA approved and you got the component of the mushroom psilocybin,
• 30:58
  although it's going to first, I think be approved for Parkinson's, I think is, or,
• 31:03
  Parkinson's disorder, but low dose ketamine, microdosing ketamine,
• 31:07
  that stuff is available now.
• 31:08
  And that is has really good results
• 31:11
  from treatment resistant depression yeah okay jenna
• 31:14
  just joined a mom's group so we can focus on our individual mental health oh teach
• 31:17
  second grade bless you jen that oh
• 31:20
  how old is that let's figure the math because i think that's a that's like just
• 31:24
  herding cats all day is i can imagine but man how important you are though second
• 31:29
  grade okay i've always i'm some people know this stuff off the top of their
• 31:31
  head if she can beat us there how much is When I look at a kid,
• 31:37
  it's either three or like...
• 31:38
  15? Oh, six to seven.
• 31:41
  Okay, I do think that must be... I should be asking, right? Yeah,
• 31:45
  that's wild though. Sam, I like what you're saying here. Oh wait, first of all, Jin, if...
• 31:50
  Join a mom's group so we can focus on individual mental health. I teach second grade.
• 31:53
  If you're up for it, shoot me an email at tony at tonyoverbay.com.
• 31:56
  And I've got, it's funny, I've had a couple of other mom's groups ask.
• 31:59
  I even spoke at one one time, like virtually, and it was a lot of fun.
• 32:02
  But I've got a little bit of some information I'd love to share that you could
• 32:06
  use as your muse for the mom's group, if that would help at all.
• 32:09
  Jennifer said, I just wanted to drop in and say, I tried anxiety meds for the
• 32:13
  first time and I should have a long time ago.
• 32:16
  Wow. Okay, Jennifer, tell us about that. That's the best feeling ever.
• 32:19
  Were like, I bet that it, cause I should probably do that too.
• 32:21
  Okay. Go to therapy, man. And it's so, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier.
• 32:27
  There's the, we want to know and people will often say to me,
• 32:29
  well, what if it won't work? And what if this, and what if that?
• 32:32
  And there's really like no answer to that. So yeah, that would be a thing,
• 32:35
  but you won't know until you do.
• 32:37
  And then taking that leap of faith is often such a powerful thing.
• 32:40
  And I know Sid that we've done content on this before, but I can't
• 32:43
  say it enough is that I
• 32:46
  call your emotional baseline so when you're feeling down your baseline
• 32:49
  of emotions are low and when you're when everything's going well in
• 32:52
  your life your baseline of emotions are high your decisions are coming at you
• 32:55
  every day at the same level you're going to react to them different
• 32:58
  when you're feeling better than you when you're not feeling so good so when
• 33:01
  somebody's feeling pretty low when is the time now that they're trying to contemplate
• 33:04
  should i be on medication it's when they're feeling pretty crummy and so
• 33:07
  often the medication taking that leap of faith can raise your
• 33:10
  baseline up to a point where now you can access tools you need not
• 33:13
  like hammers and rakes and stuff unless you need them don't like force yourself
• 33:16
  to like hit a rock bottom before you
• 33:19
  heal yeah that's what i did how was
• 33:22
  that said it was not fun no oh
• 33:25
  but okay but let's talk about this though let's go hippie for a second because
• 33:31
  you're as everyone listening you're going through life for the very first time
• 33:34
  as you so you're gonna do things when you're gonna do them and when people typically
• 33:39
  try to tell somebody i think you need to do this what's the first reaction that you have.
• 33:43
  Don't tell me what to do. Exactly. That's normal. It's this concept called psychological reactance.
• 33:48
  It's that I, you know, I'll do anything other than what you were telling me to do.
• 33:51
  And this is why when you're telling somebody who is stressed and you're like,
• 33:53
  you need to calm down, they don't go, okay, thanks.
• 33:57
  They like, I can't calm down. And you can't tell me it's our inner,
• 34:01
  I call it our inner teenager. Don't tell me what to do, man.
• 34:03
  Yeah, I feel like it's because you are so like, a lot of times you do know what to do.
• 34:08
  And you're just so comfortable, like lying to yourself
• 34:11
  that when somebody tells you something and it's actually
• 34:14
  maybe a helpful thing you get really it's like you
• 34:17
  said like it's the reaction like you get so i i'm talking about myself
• 34:20
  by the way oh i did not know that really yeah and
• 34:23
  so i found it's like okay if i'm getting really defensive like maybe they're
• 34:26
  like literally speaking truth for real they might be and i call them the yeah
• 34:30
  buts so if i were to say right now said yeah so probably a good idea to start
• 34:33
  therapy right give me your yeah buts honestly what are your yeah buts i just
• 34:38
  it's like a I have to get in the car, drive,
• 34:42
  get out of the car, walk, sit, know what day, know what time. That sounds like a lot.
• 34:50
  It's hard for me. But anytime we want to do something new or something that
• 34:56
  might be scary or the unknown, just sit back and watch the yeah buts and they will happen.
• 35:01
  Even today, Sid and I were talking about doing this in the middle of the day
• 35:04
  and we haven't done that before.
• 35:05
  And I had a lot of, well, yeah, but you know what? Yeah, but what if Sidney's
• 35:08
  not even going to be available? I almost didn't even ask, which is so silly
• 35:11
  because I wouldn't have given you a chance to respond.
• 35:13
  And then it was like, yeah. Don't do that. It's so annoying.
• 35:15
  Oh, when I did, I'm glad we're here because I need to allow you to tell me no old man.
• 35:19
  Yeah. Okay. I like that Sam said this thing too. He said, where was it at?
• 35:23
  He said, I try not to focus on the diagnosis rather than acknowledging my own
• 35:26
  struggles as personal to me.
• 35:28
  I was having a conversation about this with somebody else and I really like
• 35:31
  it because so I'm not a huge diagnosis guy,
• 35:34
  except for when somebody really feels like it is helpful for them because I
• 35:40
  deal a fair amount in the world of people who turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms, AKA addiction.
• 35:45
  And there are some real definite.
• 35:48
  Oh, hey, Betsy. There's definite things that are addiction where it is ruining somebody's life.
• 35:53
  But so often people are doing things because they don't feel connected,
• 35:57
  I always say, in their relationship or as a parent or in their faith or their health or their career.
• 36:02
  So then they turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms. So when they find the
• 36:06
  tools to interact better in those areas, often they don't feel the need as much
• 36:10
  to turn to a coping mechanism.
• 36:11
  But where I'm going with this, I've got to... Wait, I love this. Okay.
• 36:15
  Can I say something before I forget? Please. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:17
  I don't know if this is where you're going, but I was reading something about
• 36:20
  this or something, but the idea of changing your perception of how you see addiction,
• 36:27
  it's like you aren't doing it because you're a bad person, you're doing it because
• 36:31
  you were trying to heal. Absolutely.
• 36:33
  You were doing it out of the only form of self-love that you could understand at the time.
• 36:37
  Once you see that, once you face the shadow and the shadow, you realize.
• 36:43
  Was there to help you, not hurt you. That changed everything for me.
• 36:48
  That made me just stop needing it as much.
• 36:51
  Because it was not scary or bad anymore.
• 36:54
  And there's a type of therapy called internal family systems,
• 36:57
  which I think I'm going to start trying to work a lot more into my own practice.
• 37:01
  And it is the concept, Sid, where there are no bad parts. So,
• 37:04
  even the part of you that would identify, not just you, but the part of one
• 37:08
  that would identify as an addict is trying to help you.
• 37:12
  Because when you felt completely overwhelmed and didn't know what to do,
• 37:16
  it's saying, hey, this is a way to feel better for a time.
• 37:19
  And so, your addict, and you kind of like call it your sub-personality.
• 37:23
  Actually, in my addiction recovery course, The Path Back, there's an exercise
• 37:27
  in there where we sub, we personify the sub-personality.
• 37:31
  So, let's say that you have an addict and an addictive part of you.
• 37:35
  I like alliteration, so we'll call it Andy. And then you literally are having a conversation.
• 37:38
  Hey, Andy, I appreciate you. You've meant well, like you've really tried to take care of us.
• 37:43
  Probably not the most emotionally healthy way to do it, but I know you meant
• 37:47
  well because we have no bad parts is the belief there.
• 37:51
  Imagine Andy is like a baby and just throw Andy in the backseat, blow him up.
• 37:56
  And you're driving now, you know? Okay, and I like that you said that because
• 37:59
  Andy's still going to scream and cry, but you don't have to listen to him.
• 38:02
  You can turn the music up.
• 38:03
  That's right. Yeah. So there's a quote I love. The strongest force in the human
• 38:07
  personality is to act in alignment with how you see yourself.
• 38:09
  So however you identify yourself, you're going to find a way back to that home base.
• 38:13
  So if I have somebody that has been doing amazing, not turning to the unhealthy
• 38:17
  coping mechanisms or the addictions, but they continually identify,
• 38:19
  but I'm an addict, then again, strongest force in the human personality is to
• 38:24
  act in alignment with how you see yourself.
• 38:26
  So, if they identify as an addict, over time, they will find a way back to that home base.
• 38:30
  Rather than if they're saying for people that are Christian,
• 38:33
  spiritual, if they're my child of God, or I'm a being that knows,
• 38:35
  I'm a curious person, I'm somebody who figures things out.
• 38:38
  If that's how I identify myself, then I might actually have a setback or a relapse,
• 38:42
  but I will find my way back to this home base that I identify as somebody who
• 38:45
  will figure it out. Does that make sense?
• 38:47
  I dig that. Sam said, oh, and another, did you read this? I don't think you did.
• 38:50
  Oh, and another shift I made is knowing the meds might help,
• 38:53
  but I'm the one making the progress.
• 38:55
  Oh i haven't thought of that wait that was really
• 38:58
  good that one sit for a minute that's really good yeah because okay in editing
• 39:02
  do this let's say that i told sam that okay no i told him that no no no so like
• 39:08
  i always told sam i was just thinking sam the meds might help but you're the
• 39:12
  one making the progress no no sam here's what i always tell people the meds might help,
• 39:18
  but sam it's you buddy it's you it's you
• 39:22
  that's making the change here's why that's significant it because people will
• 39:25
  take medication but then they won't go to therapy or they
• 39:28
  won't do a lot so it will help them feel a bit better but then
• 39:31
  are they now using raising that emotional baseline and then
• 39:34
  using that to take action and grab these new tools are
• 39:37
  they starting to meditate are they starting to figure out their values are starting
• 39:39
  to take action on things that matter like i always told sam i mean i think sam
• 39:44
  and i had that conversation a couple years ago and he was like tony i don't
• 39:46
  know what to do and i'm like sam listen okay do you have enough to edit in and
• 39:52
  i deserve to credit myself not the meds wait did i already read that yeah.
• 39:58
  Okay i was waiting
• 40:02
  for a miracle med to cure me for much too long yeah
• 40:05
  and that's a good point too okay hang on xavier makes a very good
• 40:08
  point improv comic yes and not yeah
• 40:11
  but so yes and yes and
• 40:14
  yourself okay exactly i like it jen my email isn't in the link tree can't you
• 40:19
  oh i want to make some joke but i was gonna say my assistant needs to get on
• 40:22
  it but sid's not my assistant i need to actually look at my link tree i know
• 40:26
  that's i'm kidding let's go back to what i was talking about to sam but my email
• 40:30
  is i am the foundation that's right and i am the blush,
• 40:34
  was that funny come on i said i'm the blush the blush you're the foundation
• 40:38
  that's a makeup thing right oh yeah no that's funny oh boy okay don't try that one again.
• 40:45
  Okay. Tony at Tony over bay.com. You can email me.
• 40:49
  And if somebody is hearing that out of context, Jen has a mom's group and I
• 40:53
  would love to provide her with some material that can act as a muse so that
• 40:57
  Jen can have some stuff that they can talk about.
• 40:59
  And oh, as I say, oh, okay. Xavier said, I've heard an addict say that his use
• 41:03
  kept him alive until he could heal.
• 41:04
  And that's, that's a great point. So that is the, we're no bad part because
• 41:08
  it is trying to keep you alive.
• 41:09
  It kind of, it goes back to, I would highly recommend go find either of my podcasts,
• 41:14
  waking up to narcissism or the virtual couch.
• 41:16
  And a few weeks ago, I did a two-part series on emotional immaturity.
• 41:19
  And it is whatever we did as a kid that was, it was adaptive.
• 41:24
  It kept us alive is now most likely maladaptive as our adult self.
• 41:28
  So the little kid's still trying to take over.
• 41:30
  So let's just pretend that I didn't get as much attention as I would have liked.
• 41:34
  Then I need to be the best at everything, or I got to be funny,
• 41:38
  or I've got to do sports real well or I got to have like 800 podcasts or I have to have to perform.
• 41:42
  But now let's say that I'm in a relationship and that becomes a lot for my wife
• 41:47
  because I'm constantly like, hey, did you see the thing or do you think I'm funny or are we good?
• 41:50
  And so it was adaptive as a child. It helped me stay alive, but now it's maladaptive as an adult.
• 41:55
  Or you get a lot of kids that were in, let's say, emotionally,
• 42:00
  can you say, I'm trying to worry about the things that will get us shadow banned.
• 42:05
  Were not emotionally healthy in their childhood.
• 42:08
  And so then they learned to just sit back and not talk and not offer opinions
• 42:12
  and try to just fade into the background to not be seen.
• 42:15
  So that kept them alive as a child. But then as an adult, then that is,
• 42:19
  I get those people in my office for couples therapy and that person will still
• 42:23
  just shut down because they don't want to get in trouble.
• 42:25
  They just feel like, okay, if I can just hold out, then we'll move on and they'll
• 42:29
  go on to somebody else. So then it's maladaptive as an adult.
• 42:33
  Sam remembers when I gave him that great advice Okay Really Sam?
• 42:40
  I was going to send him a virtual couch prize pack. I really like that though.
• 42:44
  I think it's just like the whole idea that you heal through like being like,
• 42:49
  no, bad, stop it, drop it.
• 42:50
  You know, it's like, that's just not true. You heal when you like love everything,
• 42:55
  like the good and the bad because you see what it was doing for you or teaching
• 43:00
  you. You just didn't know yet.
• 43:02
  Absolutely. And there's, okay, let me spend a second on this.
• 43:05
  So I've got, so I've got an, hey, Jessica, I've got an emotional immaturity cheat sheet.
• 43:09
  And I will say, if you want to email me at Tony at Tony at Tony overbay.com
• 43:14
  and ask for the cheat sheet, I'll send you this because this one's powerful.
• 43:18
  But at the beginning, I quote a book. It's a fictional book called it's called
• 43:22
  The Fury and it's by Alex Mikulaytas.
• 43:25
  But in and I'm going to read for a second, Sid, so forgive me here. But this is so good.
• 43:29
  He's talking about in the book, this character is talking about his fictional
• 43:31
  therapist. And he says, my therapist was called Mariana.
• 43:34
  And I remember when she said something chilling. He said, it messed up my head
• 43:36
  for a long time. But looking back, it changed my life.
• 43:39
  When we are young and afraid, when we're shamed and humiliated,
• 43:41
  something happens, time stops and it freezes at that moment.
• 43:44
  A full version, oh no, a version of us is trapped at that age forever.
• 43:47
  A frightened child is hiding in your mind.
• 43:50
  It's still unsafe. It's still unheard and unloved. And the sooner you get in
• 43:53
  touch with that child and communicate with them, the more harmonious your life
• 43:55
  will be. And here's the part that is chilling.
• 43:58
  He said, after all, that's what he grew you for, isn't it? A strong adult body
• 44:01
  to look after him and his interests, to take care of him and protect him.
• 44:04
  You were meant to liberate him, but instead you ended up becoming his jailer.
• 44:06
  So when we were talking earlier about our emotions, we learned to stuff our
• 44:10
  emotions and we learned to internalize our emotions and our emotions are bad.
• 44:13
  But that was the way our little body was trying to communicate with us, fear or sadness.
• 44:18
  And it was trying to say, let me just imprint this on you now and promise me
• 44:23
  when you get to be a big adult, you'll take care of us. You'll fix it because
• 44:26
  nobody else is going to fix it for us.
• 44:28
  But we somehow missed that memo. So now that you are in your adult body,
• 44:32
  it's time to heal that inner child. Does that resonate?
• 44:36
  Totally. I just did like a bunch of like inner work with this. Did you? Okay.
• 44:42
  The best thing ever. Okay, Jessica said... Yeah, I like what you're saying.
• 44:44
  Okay. I finally hung out with friends, or if I finally hung out with friends
• 44:48
  and my sister is not talking to me, do you think she's jealous?
• 44:54
  I don't know if I know enough about the situation, you know?
• 44:57
  Because, like, what if it's something completely external as to what,
• 45:00
  like, what if she's going through something that has nothing to do with you?
• 45:03
  But from what you're saying, like, yeah, that's what it seems like she's projecting.
• 45:08
  Well, I like it. I really appreciate that you said, because I like to say that
• 45:11
  there's so many variables that are going into situations.
• 45:14
  But when you've been doing something for a very long time, you do notice patterns.
• 45:18
  And so my go-to in that is, yeah, it's jealousy or she's projecting that,
• 45:22
  okay, it can't be that easy.
• 45:24
  You can't just hang out with friends and then they like you.
• 45:26
  So if she's felt like internally, this is difficult or it's harder to hang out with friends.
• 45:31
  And that's unfortunate because this is one of those concepts of the emotionally
• 45:35
  immature and I'm saying bless her heart, but it's a, if I think it, it is true.
• 45:39
  So if I think that then my friends like you better, then it is true.
• 45:43
  And now therefore, until my friends now show me that they like me better than
• 45:47
  you, then And I'm not going to interact with them, but the friends don't even know.
• 45:50
  So that one can be really tough. So this is, we go back to what we were talking
• 45:53
  about earlier. And it's one of those times where, man, her sister really needs
• 45:56
  to be aware or able to self-confront or a bit, a little bit of humility of able
• 46:01
  to say, okay, what am I missing?
• 46:04
  And man, I, so I've been digging deep into the whole world of,
• 46:07
  of Buddhism and the concept of wishing well upon others is I think a powerful one here as well.
• 46:13
  So yeah, like wish well on your enemies. Cause only hurt people hurt people.
• 46:16
  Is that what you're going into?
• 46:18
  No, I am. I totally do this. And it feels like empowering to do it too.
• 46:23
  And it's funny because I didn't even know.
• 46:26
  It's one of those I wasn't as aware of where I would hear about the success
• 46:28
  of somebody else, a friend or a colleague.
• 46:30
  And then I would think I would be jealous. And I would think,
• 46:33
  man, that stings. I can't. I bet they think they're better. But now it's just good for them, period.
• 46:37
  And it's nice because when we were talking earlier, this path of becoming enlightenment
• 46:41
  or knowledge, I didn't know what I didn't know. Then I'm learning.
• 46:44
  And now I know. But I don't really know what to do with it. or I don't do it
• 46:46
  very often, then I move into the, okay, I do it more than I don't. And then I just am.
• 46:50
  I have become, is this what I do? And so, it becomes your reaction,
• 46:54
  which is really powerful, I think.
• 46:57
  Yeah. That part is like the best part, I feel like.
• 47:00
  And you just have to be so okay with being so uncomfortable until then.
• 47:05
  And I feel like at first, right, it kind of comes in moments.
• 47:09
  Like you'll maybe react that way one day and then the next day you won't.
• 47:13
  You'll be like, oh no is everything over did i lose all my
• 47:16
  progress but it's like no one day you really will
• 47:18
  just wake up and like that's who you will be i'm glad you say that because that
• 47:22
  is it's so there's so many cliches that are cliches because they're real but
• 47:25
  the they're all give me one that's not real uh oh man now i want to find one
• 47:29
  give me a couple of minutes with chat gbt like it's just knowledge yeah yeah
• 47:33
  over time okay you're right because i often mistake cliches with pop psychology.
• 47:40
  So there will be pretty crummy psychological advice given at times that but
• 47:45
  you're right that's different than a cliche that's fair yeah like when you said
• 47:47
  is perception is your reality is that even a cliche it is but it's a good one
• 47:51
  I feel like that is just so like that's just like,
• 47:53
  A fact. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's get a couple of these too.
• 47:57
  So Jennifer said, my stepdad has never tried to get to know my sister.
• 48:01
  And we need to be around him when we see my mom.
• 48:04
  It's always awkward energy how to handle it. Such a good question.
• 48:07
  He said, I always like going to you first. You have the real advice,
• 48:11
  then I'll give the boring therapy. You want me to go first?
• 48:13
  So first of all, I want to acknowledge that that is awkward.
• 48:17
  And a lot of times we just need to accept the fact that, okay,
• 48:20
  that kind of stinks. And this is the concept I love of acceptance doesn't mean you give up.
• 48:25
  Acceptance doesn't mean apathy. What acceptance means is I got to take it in
• 48:28
  without defense in its entirety. It is.
• 48:30
  But and I like the example of if somebody is trying to avoid all things that
• 48:34
  will cause them anxiety, then anxiety wins.
• 48:36
  So I have to accept the fact of anxiety and I'll go about the world.
• 48:39
  I'll have positive interactions. I'll get to do things. Oh, yeah.
• 48:42
  And then sometimes I'm going to feel really anxious.
• 48:44
  So I have to accept the fact that my stepdad is a tool, right?
• 48:48
  Because if I want to interact with my mom, if I was like, man, but that's not fair.
• 48:51
  And I don't even know what to do. And I don't want to be around him.
• 48:54
  Then he, I don't want to say wins, but in a sense, he has more control.
• 48:58
  So I'm accepting the fact that, oh, this guy, not so cool, but I want to connect with my mom.
• 49:03
  So there's our first one. And you can jump in, Sid, and tell me any,
• 49:07
  you can debunk any of that. Riddle nerd. Riddle nerd just sent a heart.
• 49:10
  All right. There we go, riddle nerd. Man, riddle nerd got a fair amount of,
• 49:14
  I want to say press, but airtime. in one of the episodes that I'm going to put
• 49:18
  as just an audio episode.
• 49:20
  So if that's his real name, Riddle Nerd, like from birth, then Riddle Nerd,
• 49:26
  prepare because you're about to probably get a lot of attention.
• 49:29
  Might have to get like an agent or those sort of things.
• 49:31
  But the mom though in this scenario, so okay, advice. That acceptance doesn't
• 49:36
  mean apathy, it means to take in without defense.
• 49:38
  And it's always awkward energy. I feel like you just have to,
• 49:41
  this is like what you were talking about earlier, right?
• 49:43
  Like just, you have to learn to like observe and and not absorb,
• 49:48
  you know? Oh, did you make that up?
• 49:49
  Uh let's go with that that's good i didn't
• 49:52
  for real though i like that a lot but i feel like that's really important as
• 49:55
  someone who feels a lot of things yeah i've really
• 49:58
  had to learn that to like find the difference between
• 50:02
  that because like in this situation like that awkward energy
• 50:05
  like it's not necessarily yours like right
• 50:09
  could be being projected onto you from other people or maybe
• 50:12
  it is from you and you don't resonate with it just like learn how
• 50:15
  to transmute it into good
• 50:17
  energy okay that was so good because i was thinking at that time i
• 50:20
  like that you said that so if we're first of all we're accepting it i like
• 50:23
  this concept of whole object relations have to view everything every
• 50:26
  situation as an entire object so i can think stepdad's a
• 50:29
  tool i love my mom we're having good food we
• 50:33
  might play a board game stepdad's a tool take it
• 50:36
  all in i feel like that's like a super like big
• 50:39
  like emotional development point when you
• 50:42
  realize you can have all of these things at once
• 50:45
  yeah like how you say like it is not black and white
• 50:48
  now you can be completely terrified of something
• 50:51
  and completely like at peace and so happy
• 50:54
  that you're doing it and like those can exist at the same time that
• 50:57
  was like a big thing for me good well and that's the so
• 51:00
  okay here's the pop psychology view of this that i'm not as big of a fan of
• 51:04
  is that people are just saying hey you just got to choose to be happy which
• 51:07
  sounds great except for when people then don't feel very happy then they beat
• 51:10
  themselves up and say i guess i'm not good at choosing but what you need to
• 51:13
  do choose to be in the present moment and I can find the things that are happy
• 51:17
  and I can not notice things that maybe aren't.
• 51:19
  Yeah, and if you're just choosing to be happy, then what are you doing?
• 51:24
  Nying your actual emotions? Yes. You're ignoring the lessons that are actually
• 51:28
  trying to be taught to you? Yes, I think so. You're not actually happy.
• 51:32
  Yeah, except for the times where you are, except for the when you aren't.
• 51:35
  And I really mean that intentionally because if somebody can play like a motivational
• 51:38
  YouTube video and have a wind machine going when they walk out the door and
• 51:42
  playing some guitar music and they jump in their car and today's gonna be the
• 51:45
  best day and they've got a flat tire and then they're mad.
• 51:48
  And then it's like, holy cow, I'm not even good at being happy.
• 51:50
  And then they beat themselves up versus I'm going to go be present and I can't
• 51:54
  wait and I'm having this amazing day.
• 51:56
  And look at that. I have a flat tire. That is a thing.
• 51:59
  Check that out. And now I'm going to have this wonderful opportunity to deal
• 52:01
  with it and I can notice my frustration.
• 52:04
  It really is such an emotionally mature developmental process to then learn
• 52:10
  that I can have, like you say, all these different emotions and feelings. Yeah. Yeah.
• 52:14
  Like I said, I also went to the city today and I showed my dad what I got and
• 52:18
  my sister stared and didn't care.
• 52:19
  She stayed silent okay okay i'm
• 52:22
  on to her now yeah this is i go back to
• 52:25
  this that person your sister bless her
• 52:28
  heart and i mean that when i say bless her heart because because there's
• 52:31
  a reason why people show up the way that they do and she
• 52:34
  might not even be aware yeah or like she might
• 52:37
  be doing i've definitely had situations where i would do that and
• 52:40
  be so mad that i'm doing it but still not able to
• 52:43
  stop doing it yeah but it's just
• 52:46
  so annoying like everyone can be happy a win for someone else
• 52:48
  is a win for you yeah and here's where becoming differentiated
• 52:52
  becomes one of the the goals and and if you that i
• 52:54
  think that is becoming a buzzword but there's a psychologist who's
• 52:58
  since passed but i really love his work david schnarch and he says differentiation
• 53:02
  is people's ability to balance humankind's two most fundamental drives our desire
• 53:06
  for attachment and connection on the one hand so you want attachment you want
• 53:09
  connection with your sister your dad but also our desire to be an individual
• 53:13
  and direct the course of our own lives on the other So,
• 53:16
  it's our desire to figure out who we are while we are interacting or maintaining
• 53:20
  a relationship with somebody else because if she is just blank staring and you feel bad….
• 53:27
  What there's a chance she wants you to now basically
• 53:31
  give up yourself and then just give in and
• 53:33
  apologize for i can i'm so sorry i got this thing and
• 53:36
  i can tell it's really made you mad and i'm going to try to make
• 53:39
  i'm going to try to sacrifice my feelings and emotions and my sense of
• 53:42
  self to make you feel better even though you're being
• 53:44
  pretty immature yeah it's like she wants you to like dim your
• 53:47
  light yeah for her because because
• 53:50
  the and what's really interesting is when you really learn about differentiation it's
• 53:53
  easier to do with people that you really don't know somebody walks
• 53:57
  up off the street and says hey i'm not a big fan of your podcast okay but
• 54:00
  if sydney says it or my wife says i'm actually not a fan of
• 54:03
  your podcast i'm okay with that tell me more actually
• 54:06
  i don't yeah you shouldn't be but because people that are close closer in your
• 54:11
  life they know the right buttons to push to get you to conform so differentiation
• 54:15
  eventually it it yields emotional autonomy and that really is it's really truly
• 54:20
  the part of relationships that I think that's part that we don't know that we don't know,
• 54:24
  is that rather than trying to play small so that somebody else won't feel bad
• 54:29
  or not say something because I don't want them to think a certain thing of me,
• 54:33
  real intimacy is the, and I know I like saying this a lot, but it's the courage
• 54:36
  to be known for me to share myself and also to know somebody,
• 54:41
  to have the ability to really learn
• 54:42
  who somebody is, even if it makes you uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:47
  Jennifer said, and really, I guess it's his loss for not wanting to get to know us too.
• 54:51
  For sure. totally i almost feel like we got it more
• 54:54
  mature than that old man right and okay and that's boy
• 54:57
  i was listening to it was a podcast with the
• 55:00
  comedian theo vaughn and the guy who was the ceo of
• 55:03
  chat gpt sam altman and i like that sam altman
• 55:06
  was saying it was theo vaughn was really looking for certainty tell
• 55:09
  me about what ai is going to mean in the future and sam altman kept saying
• 55:12
  yeah nobody really knows and i really liked his vibe there
• 55:15
  and he said a thing where he said when i was younger and i was
• 55:17
  in a room i was assumed that the older people knew what
• 55:20
  was going on or they knew what was going to happen and then
• 55:23
  he's like and now that i'm that guy i realize nobody really
• 55:25
  does and i think it's brilliant because i'm 55 and
• 55:29
  i still like trying to figure this stuff out i feel like the like smarter people
• 55:33
  are the ones who are totally comfortable that is it what's going on like the
• 55:38
  people that have to feel like they know everything are the people that are so
• 55:42
  uncomfortable with not knowing stuff so now we and that's where said people
• 55:46
  will then go back to how we started today where they're going to go into this I need to find,
• 55:51
  I need to make sense of things and I might even try to create narratives that
• 55:55
  will make sense of things.
• 55:56
  Yeah, and then you're closing, if you pick one thing to be your truth,
• 56:00
  then you're closing yourself off to all of the other knowledge of the world. You know what I mean?
• 56:06
  Don't don't no one knows what's going on come on like be
• 56:09
  real there's a i really like this podcast called hidden
• 56:12
  true crime and it's with lauren mathias and
• 56:14
  her husband dr john who's a clinical forensic psychologist and
• 56:18
  i will never forget he was talking about this chad and laurie daybell case which
• 56:21
  i could talk about all day long but he was saying that he now dr john has a
• 56:26
  new little kid and he's i think he's in his 40s didn't know if he was gonna
• 56:29
  have children and he was over i swear he said i could be wrong but he was looking
• 56:32
  over a valley and he was just sitting there holding his kid's hand and he just thought,
• 56:36
  I'm looking at this valley and it's beautiful and I've got my kid here.
• 56:39
  And he was just so in the present moment.
• 56:41
  And he talked about how somebody like this Chad Daybell, who called himself
• 56:45
  a prophet, he would stand there and he had to now tell, this is where these
• 56:49
  battles were fought in the past and this is where these heavenly things will happen.
• 56:52
  And so, it's like he needed to have this narrative that he knew versus just
• 56:57
  he was missing out on the present moment.
• 56:59
  And I think about that often where when we can accept the fact that maybe we
• 57:03
  don't know, then we can just be in the moment.
• 57:05
  And then you have to do that long enough. And then all of a sudden,
• 57:09
  your day-to-day are all these opportunities for connection and being,
• 57:12
  and you're not trying to continually figure out what and why and how versus
• 57:17
  I just, I'm being in that moment.
• 57:18
  And I think that's a really powerful thing. Yeah. Yeah.
• 57:22
  Jessica said, do you think she sounds jealous that I would put myself in such
• 57:27
  a big group because she said that would scare her one time?
• 57:30
  Oh, right there. so yeah I feel like she's I've had a friend like this kind of where it's like.
• 57:38
  Any time that you do good for yourself, it means that it's like an attack.
• 57:43
  If I would do something good or positive, she would take that as a literal attack against her.
• 57:49
  And it was like, what is happening? I don't know. It's just normal in a friendship
• 57:52
  to be happy for the other person, I feel like.
• 57:55
  It just shows a lot of insecurity in the other person and they're just not secure
• 58:01
  enough with where they're at in their life that they want to keep you down. That right there.
• 58:06
  If you can go find the, on my Waking Up to Narcissim podcast,
• 58:10
  I did one on narcissistic family.
• 58:12
  No, the antagonistic attachment styles of the narcissist.
• 58:15
  And I'm not trying to say everybody's a narcissist, but this is based off of
• 58:18
  an article by Julie Hall.
• 58:20
  And it's called Understanding the Narcissist Antagonistic Attachment Style.
• 58:23
  This paragraph sets it up so perfectly. She says, securely attached humans approach
• 58:28
  relationships cooperatively. They work together to achieve shared goals.
• 58:31
  They seek and give empathetic validation.
• 58:33
  They share accurate and truthful information, and they express affection and
• 58:36
  vulnerability to build trust and intimacy in their relationships.
• 58:39
  Even if there's conflict or disagreement, they offer mutual support,
• 58:42
  and that's the foundation of the relationship.
• 58:44
  But things like respect and love are not at stake. She says,
• 58:47
  by contrast, the narcissistic personality attachment with others is antagonistic.
• 58:51
  It's a concept in biology that refers that a relationship in which one organism
• 58:55
  benefits at the expense of the other.
• 58:57
  So if one person is going to then go interact with a lot of friends,
• 59:01
  and this person doesn't think that they can do that then they need to pull that
• 59:05
  person back down into their their pit and so they just they don't have this
• 59:10
  wishing well for others and so they need you to be in it with them because then
• 59:15
  they can take the one-up position it does it does it's so sad.
• 59:20
  Because what happens is so many people that are insecure or unsure of themselves,
• 59:24
  they view life as this zero-sum game where they can only win if somebody else is losing. Yeah.
• 59:29
  Right? Yeah. And I think that part is so hard.
• 59:31
  And I often say that the emotionally immature or narcissistic person,
• 59:35
  they need another human to interact with to know that they even exist.
• 59:39
  And then when they get the other human with them, then they need to take the one-up position.
• 59:42
  So, when you try and stay connected to somebody that is immature and doesn't wish the best for you,
• 59:48
  then when you interact with them, most likely, I call it an attack surface,
• 59:51
  you're going to say things and they're going to now have an attack surface to
• 59:54
  tell you what is bad about what you said or how you don't understand them because of what you said.
• 59:59
  And they try to take that one-up position to make you feel down.
• 1:00:02
  And have you ever felt that, Sid? Yeah, and it can just, and then you're wasting
• 1:00:06
  emotional calories trying to figure out what is wrong with me or did I say that
• 1:00:09
  wrong or why are they mad at me versus just in a friendship where you're both
• 1:00:12
  getting to just be. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  Jessica said, why do you think people check themselves in their phone so much?
• 1:00:19
  It's so annoying, like hold their phone up.
• 1:00:21
  It's so annoying. I hung out with 30 people last night, but I felt so frozen
• 1:00:24
  and I felt like I couldn't engage until drama started from someone else in the baseball stands.
• 1:00:29
  My older sister said she would be scared but i think my younger sister
• 1:00:32
  i think my younger sister said she would
• 1:00:35
  be scared as well but starting with the phone yeah
• 1:00:38
  talk to me dude i don't know i it's like a comfort
• 1:00:41
  it's like a coping mechanism right because i do it sometimes if
• 1:00:44
  i like i'm walking outside and like i like
• 1:00:47
  start feeling like i'm being perceived and then i'll
• 1:00:50
  just like pretend like i'm looking at something my phone my screen's off
• 1:00:53
  yeah i used to when i was like really really anxious i used to do i would just
• 1:00:57
  pretend like i was on a fake phone call all the time okay i was gonna ask you
• 1:01:00
  no one's looking at you no would you talk out loud do you think they can see
• 1:01:04
  that my screen is not real from behind my hand in the from that car over there
• 1:01:07
  it's like they literally are not paying attention to you but they could though
• 1:01:10
  actually said they would tell me.
• 1:01:13
  Kidding but but it's i i just
• 1:01:16
  agree with you but i i do it too and it's annoying and like i
• 1:01:19
  for me when i hang out with people like i just don't i try
• 1:01:22
  not to just not be on my phone at all i really think it's
• 1:01:24
  like a it's like a basically an adult pacifier in
• 1:01:27
  a sense like this is soothing mechanism and and
• 1:01:30
  i will often say and i'm as guilty as can
• 1:01:33
  be as well i have one of my main core values is curiosity so i'm continually
• 1:01:37
  i like googling things like to know facts like to know what else has happened
• 1:01:41
  in this area like that's different it can be different than me sitting staring
• 1:01:45
  at a blank phone okay fair while
• 1:01:48
  everyone is living around me that's fair like that's a A little crazy.
• 1:01:51
  A little bit. A little bit. So what I think is the antidote to this,
• 1:01:55
  though, is to be curious about other people's experiences.
• 1:01:57
  And when I have somebody that comes to me and they say, I want to be better
• 1:02:00
  in social situations or to interact with other people, then I think they really
• 1:02:04
  need to be curious and ask other people questions because people love talking about themselves.
• 1:02:09
  And I think it would be much better than everyone just staring at their phone.
• 1:02:13
  But then I start sounding like such an old man. I'm going to yell,
• 1:02:15
  get off my lawn in a couple of seconds now.
• 1:02:18
  What? Oh, puzzle piece. Okay, good. That means we're at an hour. Let's keep going.
• 1:02:23
  Okay, and your mom is supposed to come here any time. Okay. Okay, and say hi.
• 1:02:28
  Jessica said... Oh, wait, yeah, so my younger sister is immature.
• 1:02:31
  It's horrible that she doesn't think that. Yeah, here's the irony.
• 1:02:35
  The emotionally immature person doesn't self-confront because they're emotionally immature.
• 1:02:41
  Because that would require them to take ownership or accountability.
• 1:02:45
  Because the childhood adaptation to that was blame shift, gaslight,
• 1:02:49
  deny. And so that kept them alive as a kid. So they're going to continue to do that now.
• 1:02:53
  Yeah, just know that if they're not going to mature, then you making them mad is you doing good stuff.
• 1:03:00
  So keep doing it. Yeah, okay. Betsy said, I can't do the fake phone call because
• 1:03:03
  I know my phone will ring and I'm caught.
• 1:03:05
  That would be funny. All it takes is one time for that to happen to somebody.
• 1:03:08
  And that really would be funny. Lucky for me, I don't receive phone calls.
• 1:03:12
  Well, when you even said you pretend to be on the phone, I was going to make
• 1:03:15
  a joke like you know how that works, right? The way like calls work and stuff. What do you mean? Hey.
• 1:03:20
  Oh, wait. That's like an old man thing. Because actually you're quite good.
• 1:03:23
  We FaceTimed for quite a while last night.
• 1:03:25
  Because my computer didn't work. This is fair. Oh, when you needed something.
• 1:03:29
  You didn't just call to ask me how I'm doing. How are you doing,
• 1:03:33
  by the way? I'm doing quite well. Thank you. Good. Yeah.
• 1:03:36
  Are you going to ask me how I'm doing? That's funny.
• 1:03:39
  Sid. Crazy. How are you doing? Not well after that. Okay.
• 1:03:43
  My bad. okay jessica said oh
• 1:03:47
  wait did you just read this part did let's see let's
• 1:03:50
  see if you've read it before i read it okay i've
• 1:03:53
  noticed that oh did i read this already and i'm like i really
• 1:03:56
  yes i did i did okay so
• 1:03:59
  move on my younger sister's image okay you
• 1:04:02
  did read that okay computers or commuters in
• 1:04:05
  old photo in old photographs were shown
• 1:04:08
  to be reading the paper oh that's funny
• 1:04:11
  is he saying like that was the phone yeah the
• 1:04:14
  olden days yeah i really that's what they would just okay you know what's okay
• 1:04:17
  what's funny about that though is that i've thought before that
• 1:04:20
  that's cool but i didn't think about it like oh they were doing the same
• 1:04:22
  thing um it is funny i do
• 1:04:25
  remember still when people would carry a paperback book along
• 1:04:28
  with them so if you're waiting in line you know i guess maybe some people do
• 1:04:31
  just read like i am just projecting that i would never read i have i read a
• 1:04:36
  couple pages of a book the other day what was it it was like this book about
• 1:04:39
  and like energy it It was like the science behind energy,
• 1:04:46
  like your aura and fields and stuff like that.
• 1:04:49
  It was so interesting, but it was like, oh my gosh, ADHD makes that so hard.
• 1:04:54
  I have to read one sentence like 12 times to even know what it says.
• 1:04:58
  Yeah. Does that frustrate you?
• 1:05:03
  Yes. I know. And I've been saying it because when I'm working with somebody
• 1:05:07
  that is struggling with something like that, because again, I'm a big old ADHD person as well.
• 1:05:11
  Acceptance is really helpful there as well, because people will start to beat
• 1:05:13
  themselves up or what's wrong with me and versus like, oh, check that out.
• 1:05:17
  This is the fourth time I'm reading this sentence like that as a thing.
• 1:05:20
  And it just like that, that talk about energy, that that shifts the what's wrong
• 1:05:24
  with me energy, which is always helpful.
• 1:05:27
  I love Jessica. She's just still ranting about this. She said,
• 1:05:30
  no, but they literally hold it up high in the air, like very high. Yeah.
• 1:05:34
  Not just in front of their face, but like high up in the air. No, you're so right.
• 1:05:38
  And like making the little kiss face. Okay. Any tips on how to have a better
• 1:05:42
  mind-body connection? I feel like I drift away a lot. Jessica asked.
• 1:05:45
  I was actually, I've been writing about this a lot. And there's a concept called
• 1:05:49
  embodiment, which I really like. Are you familiar with that, Sid?
• 1:05:53
  Embodiment? Embodiment? No. What it really is, is we're so much in our head
• 1:05:56
  that then embodiment is being able to go on a walk or it is more about some
• 1:06:01
  deep breathing and it's learning to just really feel your body.
• 1:06:06
  And like body scans and meditation are a good part of that because we just,
• 1:06:10
  we think and think and a lot of times we try to think our way out of thinking
• 1:06:13
  problems, which only adds to more of the stress.
• 1:06:15
  And I think this is where it's important to recognize. So, I've got a couple
• 1:06:18
  of episodes on the Waking Up to Narcissim podcast about the amygdala hijack.
• 1:06:23
  You know, your amygdala is what people call the lizard brain or the critter
• 1:06:26
  brain or the Neanderthal brain.
• 1:06:27
  And that's where the fight and flight and fawn and freeze, all that comes from.
• 1:06:31
  And so when you can really understand, I think the science behind it is the
• 1:06:35
  more that you worry and stress and overthink, your heart rate elevates and it
• 1:06:40
  starts to shut down your prefrontal cortex.
• 1:06:43
  And that's the part where you can make logical decisions and you'll get in your amygdala.
• 1:06:47
  At a certain point, your heart rate elevates so much. You're so stressed.
• 1:06:50
  You're so anxious that the amygdala takes over. And now you can't even access
• 1:06:53
  the logical part of your brain.
• 1:06:55
  So you can turn to some good old breathing, but at that point your amygdala
• 1:06:59
  is already hijacked. So one of the best things you can do is go for a walk.
• 1:07:02
  It's being able to go outside and breathe in fresh air and feel your legs, your feet on the ground.
• 1:07:09
  And so that, and I think that's how to have a better mind body connection.
• 1:07:12
  I feel like I drift away a lot is just come back into the present and don't
• 1:07:16
  try necessarily to think your way into the present but just be what can i feel
• 1:07:20
  what can i smell what can i touch i never can remember what all five are.
• 1:07:27
  Think no what can i what am i what can i what am i seeing what am i smelling what am i hearing,
• 1:07:33
  what can i dance to okay i don't know i have i like what you're saying i'm trying
• 1:07:39
  to find I had like a good quote that I saw the other day for that.
• 1:07:43
  I don't remember what it was. It was something about like, you're like, why are you laughing?
• 1:07:48
  Because that was just funny. I thought you were going to end it there.
• 1:07:50
  I saw this great quote. I don't remember what it was. Next question.
• 1:07:53
  Well, now I'm going to do that. Okay. Thank you. Oh, okay.
• 1:07:59
  Silence. Okay. More questions. Sit in it. You do something. You do.
• 1:08:05
  Okay. I will read another quote. Carl Rogers, the famous psychologist,
• 1:08:09
  the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.
• 1:08:14
  I really like that one a lot. Yeah, that's like we were talking about,
• 1:08:17
  you have to be honest with yourself.
• 1:08:19
  You have to love yourself enough to be so honest with yourself.
• 1:08:21
  Yeah, yeah. And I think that's good.
• 1:08:23
  Okay, now I've got my random quotes and thoughts page up. And so I just want
• 1:08:27
  to run through all of them.
• 1:08:28
  The immortal words of Art Garfunkel from Simon and Garfunkel,
• 1:08:30
  all lies and jests, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
• 1:08:35
  That's in a song. song lyrics and it was what we were talking about earlier
• 1:08:37
  with confirmation bias, our perception is our reality, where somebody hears
• 1:08:42
  the things that they want to hear and they disregard the rest.
• 1:08:44
  Yeah, yeah. So, we're taking things in through our own filter.
• 1:08:48
  I was going to say something, but I didn't say it. Okay.
• 1:08:52
  That is good live Q&As. I hope that one makes the cut into the...
• 1:08:58
  I think this will be a good clip. Okay.
• 1:09:00
  This one's going big. Okay. Jennifer says, I feel like I can't hold conversations
• 1:09:03
  like where to start and how to get better.
• 1:09:05
  This is one that comes up often. I was talking to a client the other day who
• 1:09:09
  said, and he wants to be more engaged with his partner, but he was saying that,
• 1:09:14
  but what do you do when you don't care about what they're talking about?
• 1:09:18
  Talking about what do you what do you say that I know and
• 1:09:21
  it's I was grateful that he asked the question yeah well
• 1:09:24
  I feel like if you care and love the person deeply enough
• 1:09:28
  like it's not that you like that specific thing you like like the light in their
• 1:09:33
  eyes when they're talking about something that they love yes I mean yeah that's
• 1:09:36
  what you're like in love with you don't have to like actually love the thing
• 1:09:39
  just like and yeah it's so good and so then and I'll add I'll yes understand
• 1:09:43
  that and say what I shared with him was,
• 1:09:47
  yeah, you like this person and they like that thing or it means something to them.
• 1:09:51
  So, that's your opportunity to get out of your own ego and it isn't about you
• 1:09:54
  and now you be curious about them.
• 1:09:57
  And I did an episode, go find this on the virtual couch a couple of weeks ago
• 1:10:00
  about genuine curiosity because a lot of us just aren't curious.
• 1:10:03
  We like to tell others what they are doing or what they must be thinking or
• 1:10:06
  what they must be feeling.
• 1:10:07
  But genuine curiosity, you can ask a question because you're trying to check a box.
• 1:10:11
  Not a big fan of that one. Or a lot of people ask questions.
• 1:10:14
  They're like, no, I really want to know so that I can tell you how dumb you are at some point.
• 1:10:17
  Or genuine curiosity. I really want to know and understand you.
• 1:10:21
  And that's a whole different level because you will feel these reactions come
• 1:10:24
  up where you want to tell them, but that's not, but why do you think that?
• 1:10:28
  Or, but I don't believe that. And that's, so it takes work to be genuinely curious.
• 1:10:32
  So if you care about the person, there's your marching orders right there.
• 1:10:35
  Yeah. I feel like that's also like a differentiation moment where it's,
• 1:10:38
  You don't have to love the same thing. Yeah.
• 1:10:41
  And it's like, I feel like to love someone is to like, like love seeing them
• 1:10:46
  do exactly whatever that they want to do. Like not what I want to do.
• 1:10:51
  Okay. No, no. So that, that one, I'm, that's my current, a little bit of my
• 1:10:55
  current fixation is just, if you really step back, it's kind of silly that people
• 1:11:00
  are just continually telling them what, well, what I think you mean is this
• 1:11:03
  versus, Hey, tell me more about what you mean,
• 1:11:06
  you know? And that's supposed to be love. Come on.
• 1:11:08
  Okay. Come on. Hey, 101 Music's here, and I know that they, I believe 101 Music's
• 1:11:13
  the one that we'll typically ask about a ghost story.
• 1:11:15
  101 Music, you should have been here an hour and change ago when Sydney made a your mom joke to me.
• 1:11:21
  Now, granted, that is her grandmother, but my mother did just recently pass away.
• 1:11:26
  So we may have a ghost story in the coming weeks. Don't say that.
• 1:11:30
  No, I'm kidding. I know that. You know I'm kidding.
• 1:11:32
  I'm scared now. Oh, no. We'll burn some sage and things like that.
• 1:11:36
  That's the thing, right?
• 1:11:38
  Yes, because age is a thing. Okay, but no, the reason I'm saying that,
• 1:11:41
  do you remember how embarrassed I was when I told Sydney that I had had a couple
• 1:11:45
  in here and I had a long session and they were just, they were fired up and
• 1:11:49
  it was really, I said, man, ending the day with that kind of energy.
• 1:11:52
  And Syd said, hey, I'll come in tonight because Sydney will come into my office
• 1:11:54
  at night and do the editing for clips and stuff. And she came in and she said, I'll burn sage.
• 1:12:00
  So I came in the next morning and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I can smell it.
• 1:12:03
  And she really did great.
• 1:12:04
  And the whole day, okay, this goes into what we've talked about,
• 1:12:07
  perception is your reality.
• 1:12:08
  The whole day I was like, oh my gosh, this sage stuff really works.
• 1:12:11
  I go to Sid and I'm like, Sid, sage again tonight. And she's like,
• 1:12:14
  oh, I forgot to do it last night.
• 1:12:16
  And you know what I feel like that really like showed you though,
• 1:12:19
  is just like the power of your own energy.
• 1:12:22
  For real. It's like you have the ability to bring that into a,
• 1:12:25
  you can walk into. Oh, your presence.
• 1:12:27
  Yeah. Every day you can do that. Yeah. But I also need a sage. Yeah.
• 1:12:31
  By the way, if you look to your left, Sid, do you see all the new candles I got? Oh.
• 1:12:36
  Uh-huh. i don't know if they're the kind you like what do
• 1:12:38
  i like we like complete opposite yeah i like citrusy stuff
• 1:12:41
  i like like sweet like vanilla cupcake and then my dad will literally get a
• 1:12:45
  candle that says lake lake i do have one it's not it says lakeside morning is
• 1:12:53
  what it is it's not just a lake like like it smells like moss no it does not
• 1:12:57
  smell like moss it smells like a crisp.
• 1:13:00
  Crabs like literally okay crabs don't live in
• 1:13:03
  the lake maybe they do i don't even know jennifer just get
• 1:13:05
  curious yes exactly that's exactly correct all
• 1:13:09
  right sid should we uh should we wrap things up it's a
• 1:13:11
  blast wait now are we gonna be back tomorrow night i think
• 1:13:15
  so okay i'm i mean i'm game if you are all right
• 1:13:18
  hey this was wonderful everybody saturday afternoons are good
• 1:13:21
  so will you come back again sid on a saturday afternoon
• 1:13:24
  okay and then a sunday night and then a monday morning
• 1:13:26
  and then a tuesday midday no no i'm just kidding rebecca
• 1:13:29
  we love you too and we will be back tomorrow night um
• 1:13:33
  so and again go follow us
• 1:13:36
  and do this but no go the waking up the narcissism podcast
• 1:13:39
  and the virtual couch podcast i'm
• 1:13:42
  gonna post a youtube video right after this you are okay let's
• 1:13:45
  do it of like a live from a while ago okay oh let's see
• 1:13:48
  what time tomorrow night what time you want to do it should we do 7 30
• 1:13:52
  sure pacific time but maybe it will be 8 because i'm late to everything but
• 1:13:56
  i'm really gonna try yeah today was good because we have the whole I'll just
• 1:13:59
  leave the mic set up because I don't have clients tomorrow yeah that's fine
• 1:14:02
  yeah all right real nerd talk to you later good night Jennifer thank you Betsy
• 1:14:07
  see you tomorrow Rebecca love you too bye everybody.