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My University Required Me To Watch BDSM P*rn To Graduate w/Naomi Best | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Lila Roe Show.
0:02
This episode covers a breaking news story and I have an
0:05
exclusive interview with a whistleblower from Santa Clara
0:08
University. We discussed some mature and
0:10
adult themes, so I wanted to provide a content warning
0:12
because this episode is not appropriate for children.
0:16
The cherry on top was the final exam which was an 8 to 10 page
0:20
comprehensive sexual autobiography.
0:22
We were asked to discuss things like when did we first start
0:26
eating? What are our erotic goals for
0:28
the future? How will we achieve such things?
0:30
I'm speechless. I mean, it's absolutely wild
0:33
what you've had to go through. My final straw was a.
0:37
It sounds like a perverse humiliation.
0:39
Ritual. I began to cry.
0:41
I don't want to be a public figure, but institutionalized
0:44
sexual harassment of this nature?
0:47
That is a hill I'll die on. 26 year old Naomi Best had decided
0:54
to pursue a degree in therapy because she wanted to help
0:56
people, but her dream to study to be a therapist at Santa Clara
1:00
University in California soon became a nightmare.
1:03
Welcome back to the Lila Rose show.
1:05
In today's episode, I sit down with Naomi Best and her story is
1:08
one that everybody should know. Critical theory has infiltrated
1:11
academia, but not just any academia.
1:13
It's infiltrated our own Christian and Catholic schools,
1:16
especially our counseling and therapy programs.
1:19
Today I have the honor to sit down with Naomi Best, who has a
1:22
incredible new report, her own report in the Wall Street
1:26
Journal just a few days ago. It reads Santa Clara
1:29
University's crazy idea of human sexuality.
1:31
To become a therapist, I'm expected to watch bondage videos
1:34
and submit a sexual autobiography.
1:37
It's crucial that people of good faith and goodwill know what is
1:40
happening in our education system and know of the deep,
1:43
deep corruption that is existing in the fields of psychology and
1:46
psychotherapy. Naomi, thanks so much for
1:49
joining the podcast. And thank you so much for having
1:51
me. You're so brave.
1:54
Thank you. I know that you didn't enter
1:58
school to become a therapist thinking that you would be doing
2:02
effectively A whistleblower article in the Wall Street
2:04
Journal and risking your whole career.
2:06
No, this is not. This was not in my 5 year plan
2:10
whatsoever and it's quite scary, but I think that this is the
2:15
only choice I've been left with. Thank you for coming to on the
2:19
Show today. Thank you for writing this
2:20
article and exposing what's happening.
2:22
Let's start with the background. Tell us a little bit about your
2:25
background and the events that led up to writing this article
2:28
for the Wall Street Journal. Yeah, sure.
2:30
So I am a graduate counseling psychology student at Santa
2:34
Clara University. I was born and raised in Santa
2:37
Cruz, CA and I went to UC Berkeley for my undergraduate
2:41
degree. I got a degree in Legal studies
2:45
and I matriculated into the Counseling Psychology graduate
2:48
program. I am now two years in.
2:53
I'm nearing the end of my program and one of my final
2:57
required courses is a course called Human Sexuality.
3:00
I first enrolled in this course last summer and immediately upon
3:05
digging into the syllabus I discovered requirements of
3:09
sadomasochistic erotica A like reading erotica reading erotica
3:15
a passage a chapter. This chapter describes
3:20
punishment punishing gang sex for a submissive who had taken
3:25
off her collar in an emotional reaction to a marital dispute
3:31
between her and her husband. She took off her collar and and
3:34
was punished with gang sex. That's insane.
3:38
Yeah. And they're they're having you
3:40
read this. What was the reason that they're
3:41
having you read this? Well, the I'm not sure.
3:47
To be honest. I don't know.
3:48
I think that they are. They would say that they want to
3:51
expose me to the breadth of the human sexual experience, but in
3:55
my opinion, I can understand and learn about BDSM, bondage,
4:02
domination, sadomasochism, and that that is a a sexual practice
4:07
that some people partake in without having to indulge in
4:10
this salaciously written material that was meant to
4:14
titillate. So that was included in there.
4:18
There was also a crassly written pornographic illustration guide
4:24
describing how to do all sorts of sex acts with just, again,
4:29
very gratuitous, very titillating material.
4:33
In it. I also discovered a link to a
4:37
video of group masturbation of women.
4:43
It was under the guise of feminist liberation, sexuality,
4:48
understanding one's own body and one's own pleasure.
4:51
But when it came down to it, it was full frontal, exposed women
4:56
masturbating with one another. This was part of the coursework.
5:00
This was. Required Santa Clara University.
5:02
Yes, a Jesuit institution. Yes, and the cherry on top was
5:08
the final exam, which was an 8 to 10 page comprehensive sexual
5:12
autobiography. We were asked to discuss things
5:15
like when did we first start masturbating, chronicle our
5:19
sexual past and present, what are our erotic goals for the
5:24
future, How will we achieve such things?
5:27
How will our sexual past and present affect our clinical
5:31
work? And there was a perfunctory
5:35
disclaimer that we didn't have to disclose anything that caused
5:38
extreme discomfort. Yet the the assignment in and of
5:43
itself was 8 to 10 pages for a grade with these prompts.
5:47
I don't know how to meet the requirements for that type of
5:51
assignment without sexually disclosing my history.
5:54
And at that point I had I I said no, I'm not doing that.
5:58
So I remain in the course for all of two classes.
6:02
I asked for an accommodation from the professor and the chair
6:06
which I was not granted. The chair told me that Muslim
6:10
students had Some Muslim students had received the
6:14
accommodation to take the course independently with the same
6:18
syllabus though, so they would still have to submit their
6:20
comprehensive sexual autobiography.
6:23
I have to pause for a moment. What does that mean?
6:25
Some Muslim students were given the right to take it
6:27
independently. They didn't have to show up to
6:29
the physical class. Correct.
6:31
She said that for some Muslim women students, it wouldn't be
6:35
appropriate for them to take it in a group setting.
6:38
And so they were given an accommodation to do an
6:40
independent study and I requested that the same
6:44
accommodation referencing my Christian faith.
6:47
And she said sure, that would be an option.
6:49
I could ask the professor. However, I would still have to
6:52
submit this comprehensive sexual autobiography.
6:55
Meanwhile, this is the beginning of the quarter and I am just
6:58
getting through these classes. So the second class we were put
7:03
it was Zoom. So we were put into breakout
7:05
groups and I was in a group with three or four people, one of
7:10
which was a man. And we were asked to discuss
7:13
masturbation and our our masturbation history.
7:17
And at that point I exited the Zoom meeting and I dropped the
7:21
course and figured I will have to figure out how to take this
7:25
at a later date with an appropriate accommodation.
7:29
So they are requiring this class to even graduate.
7:33
That's. Correct.
7:34
To get your what, what what degree are you trying to get you
7:36
going to get your license and to give to be a therapist?
7:39
Yes, exactly. So in California, to become a
7:42
marriage and family therapist, you must complete coursework in
7:45
human sexuality. It does not require the
7:49
submission of a comprehensive sexual autobiography, and it
7:52
does not require the consumption of written erotica or
7:57
pornographic illustration or videos.
8:00
It's absolutely mind blowing what you're saying that this is
8:03
what I mean on multiple levels for any school to do this and
8:07
require it of anyone who's interested in being a family.
8:11
A marriage and family therapist. It's crazy that this is a
8:14
Catholic University, you know Jesuit Catholic University
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I want to go back to your Wall Street Journal article for a
9:31
minute. The article I know were filled
9:33
with examples of what they were asking you to participate in.
9:38
Look at listen to I want to point out a few more things.
9:42
A guest speaker, a male transgender psychologist, told
9:45
us only trans women have putties that can blow up the world and
9:48
describe being sexually aroused while looking in the mirror.
9:51
This was what guest speaker to the class.
9:54
Yes, I guess. Psychologist gave a presentation
9:57
on gender affirming care and the transgender experience.
10:02
I want to be clear that gender dysphoria is very real and I
10:07
have immense compassion for people who have a a deeply felt
10:13
incongruence between their sex and how they perceive themselves
10:18
and want to be perceived. I am not saying that that's not
10:22
real. It clearly is.
10:24
But a person coming in and discussing their genitalia or
10:33
female genitalia in such a degrading manner and then
10:37
discussing their own sexual arousal while looking in the
10:40
mirror is just unacceptable in a professional, in any
10:45
professional or educational setting.
10:48
And I don't know how to explain that to somebody who doesn't
10:50
clearly see that. There is in other interviews
10:56
we've had on the show and other folks we've talked to, there is
10:59
a theory about some folks who want to identify as trans that
11:04
they are sexually aroused by their own transitioning and
11:09
that's driving a lot of it. This is conversations, you know,
11:13
we've had even just recently on the show we had on Katie
11:16
Koblance, Chloe Cole, others. And is, is something like that
11:21
ever a conversation? I mean, here you are learning
11:23
about what is driving maybe this person to have gender dysphoria
11:27
to begin with. I would think the questions
11:29
would be asked. You're uncomfortable with your
11:31
sex or very you're very drawn to presenting as the other sex
11:34
because it sexually arouses you. That might be something to
11:37
explore. Was that something that was
11:39
discussed or explored? No.
11:40
And in fact, the American Psychological Association's
11:43
guidelines is blanket affirmation.
11:46
And so if somebody comes, even if they're a minor and comes and
11:50
says I am the opposite sex, it is the ethical obligation of the
11:56
therapist to affirm the belief that that person is of the
12:02
opposite sex if that is the choice of the patient, whether
12:05
or not they're an adult or a child.
12:07
So no discussion as to the why behind why they may be
12:11
struggling with gender dysphoria.
12:13
No, exactly. And in fact, this psychologist
12:16
brought up gender exploratory therapy, which speaks to what
12:20
you're saying, like, oh, let's talk about maybe the your
12:22
motivations for why you want to be the opposite sex or what is
12:27
OK. You want to be a, a man.
12:30
Like, what does it mean to you to be a man?
12:32
What do you envision that being? That, without the affirmation
12:39
piece is seen as malpractice. Malpractice.
12:44
That was what was taught and they said not evidence based and
12:50
potentially harmful. So it's more than even the
12:53
classes on PDSM, it's also this very overtly pushing this
12:58
transgender ideology in the school too.
13:01
And I understand that's not what you were writing about in the
13:04
Wall Street Journal. You mentioned this very explicit
13:07
comment that this one guest speaker made who themselves
13:11
identified as transgender, but it sounds like that's this was
13:15
another part of what they were pushing in the coursework that
13:17
you you had to take. Yeah, you could say that it was
13:21
one element of it. I don't want to give the
13:24
impression that the entire class was pushing a transgender
13:27
ideology. It wasn't.
13:29
But I will say that the American Psychological Association's
13:32
guidelines are very clear that we must affirm people in their
13:36
belief that that they are the opposite sex if they tell us
13:40
that without further deeper exploration.
13:44
This psychologist said talked quite pejoratively about the
13:49
psychodynamic approach. Psychodynamic therapy discusses
13:54
the early childhood experiences and how that shapes 1's adult
13:58
perceptions and experiences. And this psychologist was saying
14:03
that that is that's gatekeeping and that's putting the the
14:07
therapist in a position over the client because they're
14:11
presumably knowing better than the client's own self perception
14:15
that they are the opposite sex. Again, regardless of age, I, I
14:22
am not in a position to tell another adult what they're going
14:25
to do. And I know that you and I
14:27
probably have different beliefs around that.
14:30
And I appreciate being able, your worldview and my worldview
14:34
to be able to coexist and be able to discuss these things
14:39
openly. And that is so contrasted by
14:42
this educational environment that I'm in where my worldview
14:45
of saying, hey, wait, can we, can we pump the brakes on this?
14:49
That's not that's not acceptable to them.
14:53
Another line in your Wall Street Journal article reads one
14:56
exercise included anonymously writing down something we
14:59
disliked about our genitals or breasts to be read aloud in
15:03
class by another student. So it sounds like they're asking
15:07
you there to make sexual disclosures with other students.
15:11
Were there other exercises like this that they asked you to be a
15:14
part of? Well, in one situation, I was
15:17
put into a Co Ed group with a man to discuss masturbation, at
15:23
which point I I declined. I did not participate in that.
15:28
And yeah, this, this specific exercise where we were to write
15:32
something down. It's a class of 20 something
15:36
people and people were writing stuff down about their male
15:41
genitalia. There's four men in the in the
15:45
classroom. I don't under, I don't know how
15:50
they felt about it, about being required to do that, but for me,
15:55
I that was a level of disclosure that I didn't want to hear from
15:59
the classmates who were sitting next to me.
16:01
I wonder if there's sexual fetishes involved here with the
16:04
people involved who are teaching this because it must be some
16:07
takes a special kind of person to enjoy and want to get back up
16:11
and go to work again. Teaching classes like this and
16:13
continually washing materials like this and teaching
16:16
materials. Teaching materials like this.
16:19
Well, the professor of this course that I enrolled in for
16:21
the second time discussed openly his interest in attending kink
16:26
festivals. Oh, so there you go.
16:30
So he did openly talk about that.
16:33
Which is also wild that you have a professor talking about his
16:37
sexual fetishes and preferences in a classroom setting.
16:41
It's a violation of boundaries on so many levels for obvious
16:45
reasons. Like you said, if this was a
16:47
corporate situation, everybody would agree.
16:49
It's so obvious, right? But when we're we're therapists
16:53
and training and he is also charged with teaching us about
16:57
boundaries between professional and student or professional and
17:03
client. If I self disclosed my sexual
17:07
interest to a client, they would have the right to report me.
17:13
If I report you, what do you mean?
17:14
Report me to my licensing board. To get your license potentially
17:18
revoked because that would be a violation of your professional
17:20
duty. Potentially, depending on how
17:22
egregious, and this professor discussed things in detail that
17:28
I find to be egregious that he would share in his position of
17:32
power. About his own sexual fetishes or
17:35
interests. Interests.
17:37
I would say interest. That's so wild, Naomi.
17:41
I'm so sorry. It's just like, it's so I, I,
17:44
I'm, I'm, I'm speechless. I mean, it's, it's absolutely
17:49
wild what you've had to go through and that so many other
17:53
students are going through this too.
17:54
Why do you think this is happening in the field of
17:57
therapy, that they're even asking students like yourself to
18:02
provide these sexual histories? Watch BDSM, Read BSM content,
18:06
watch pornographic content. Do you have any sense of of why
18:10
this has happened? Why?
18:12
Why this is happening? I do so as this is progressing,
18:16
I'm having the same question you're having.
18:18
Why is this so important to them for me to violate my own privacy
18:24
and submit the sexual autobiography?
18:26
So I began researching. What I have discovered in my
18:30
research is that critical theory has infiltrated academia like
18:36
you mentioned, and the counseling psychology profession
18:40
as well. So critical theory is a
18:43
worldview and a framework that was born out of the Frankfurt
18:47
School in Germany in the early 1920s.
18:51
Now these theorists, they argued that hegemonic power structures
18:57
should be dismantled. So in other words, anything that
19:02
upheld societal norms was inherently oppressive and should
19:06
be deconstructed. Now, this theory wasn't just a
19:09
diagnosis of the problem, it was also a prescription to dismantle
19:15
the these structures. And so they've done a lot of
19:20
writing these theorists on how to infiltrate academia, how to
19:26
infiltrate the churches and how to infiltrate the culture in the
19:31
aim of achieving their goal. And they, they think that it is
19:34
the goal of, of human liberation.
19:37
So they, they Co opt this language of social justice,
19:41
which is so important to the Jesuits.
19:43
And who doesn't want society to be just right?
19:48
Who doesn't want that? But they are using that
19:50
language, changing definitions to now dismantle all of these
19:56
norms. So one of those norms is the
19:59
privacy of 1's sexuality. It is normative sexual behavior,
20:05
frankly, and having us be inoculated, as the chair said,
20:14
to sexual content. Is important in the aim to
20:17
deconstruct that norm, and having us disclose our sexual
20:22
history and analyze it to be graded is also an an aim of of
20:31
dismantling that structure. It sounds like a perverse
20:35
humiliation ritual. It felt like that.
20:40
It felt like that. And I, I don't, I'm not going to
20:43
sit here and malign the motives of anyone individual in this
20:47
program, but I can read the, the theoretical frameworks that have
20:52
been shaping the field as a whole and come to these logical
20:57
conclusions. And you know, 1 critique I've
21:01
gotten in my article is that I'm a I'm stocking division because
21:06
I called this out as a left wing phenomenon.
21:09
Now I'm not talking about the American Democrat Party when I
21:13
say left wing. I'm saying this, this theory,
21:17
critical theory goes back to Marxist thought, Marxist Western
21:22
thought, which just objectively is a, a left wing phenomenon.
21:28
And I need to stand firm in stating in the fact that stating
21:33
that does not mean that I'm stocking division and it does
21:36
not mean that I'm Co signing every policy or every politician
21:40
in the American Republican Party.
21:42
Frankly, that's a distraction from my very important point.
21:45
Well of. Course, I think that, you know,
21:47
the fact that anyone has criticized you for that is it's
21:50
ridiculous. This is not about politics, even
21:52
though you know there is a very far left push right now in
21:58
academia, but you're not approaching this because you're
22:00
right and they're left and you're fighting them on some
22:02
political front. You're approaching this because
22:04
it's insane. It's insane to do this to the
22:06
field of therapy and it's completely it doesn't it
22:10
doesn't. There's no purpose for it.
22:11
Like you were saying. There's nothing that asking you
22:14
to do something ultimately immoral that you feel immoral
22:17
that you're deeply uncomfortable with is not.
22:19
There's no reason that this is going to help anyone.
22:22
I mean, not that it we would be moral to do it even if it could
22:24
help someone, right? I'm curious about what you're
22:27
saying about critical theory here with regard to the, you
22:30
know, putting BDSM in the coursework.
22:33
How does that, how do you see what Santa Clara University is
22:36
doing with this new approach to teaching about sexual human
22:40
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How do you see what Santa Clara University is doing with this
23:52
new approach to teaching about sexual human sexuality as
23:55
connected? How does it connect for you back
23:57
to critical theory? Sure.
23:59
Frankly, normative sexual behavior is seen as one
24:03
oppressive force that this ideology wants to dismantle.
24:10
That is what I've concluded and as a therapist in training me,
24:17
understanding the the wide breadth of human sexual
24:21
experience does not require being inoculated to this hyper
24:26
specific sexual fetish. Christian and certainly Catholic
24:32
teaching on sexuality is pretty clear.
24:35
Premarital sex is wrong. Sex belongs in marriage.
24:39
And yes, you know, there are disordered sexual practices that
24:43
are wrong as well. And those would include things
24:45
like same sex activities or masturbation.
24:51
Basically anything outside of a marriage between one man and one
24:53
woman would be seen as wrong. But that's completely different
24:57
than the prevailing ideas of say, the LGBTQ ideology.
25:02
That's what we talk about on the show often, which is that really
25:05
you can pick any number of sexual identities that you can
25:08
have any number of sexual interest and that as long as
25:10
there's consent, anything goes between 2345.
25:15
However, many adults want to get together and do things like the
25:18
lesbian masturbation porn they wanted you to watch.
25:21
So and there's a couple questions off of that.
25:24
This is a Catholic school. It was there any conversation of
25:28
we want to work with respect towards the guiding principles
25:32
of this institution or was that completely thrown out the
25:35
window? No, the Catholic tradition is
25:39
not. It's not foundational to the
25:42
education of the counseling psychology master's.
25:46
Program in any way it sounds like.
25:48
No, I can. I can say no.
25:51
What is Santa Clara University basing this all on?
25:53
Is there a sexual ethic that they told you when you got into
25:56
the program? Hey, this is what we think about
25:58
sex. This is how we approach it
26:00
clinically. And so therefore, that's why we
26:03
have to have you go watch basically porn videos.
26:07
Well, what I've come to learn is that Santa Clara University's
26:11
sexual ethic that they teach in the counseling psychology
26:13
program is that anything between consenting adults goes and
26:19
should not be met with one judgment or even clinical
26:24
curiosity. And as a therapist in training,
26:27
when I hear that somebody is is getting sexual gratification
26:33
from inflicting pain and on another person, I am curious
26:37
about that. And that doesn't mean that that
26:39
person is evil or not made in the image of God for me to be
26:44
curious about why that association is so profound.
26:50
I think that sounds very common, sensible, and I think pretty
26:53
much anyone listening would agree.
26:55
If if someone has a sexual fetish, particularly one that
26:59
involves inflicting pain in another person and that brings
27:01
them sexual pleasure. If I was, if I knew they were
27:05
going to therapy and the therapist never once was curious
27:09
about what is going on there, I would say that is a complete
27:13
dereliction of that therapist's duty.
27:15
And you know, what was missing from the sexuality course too,
27:18
is a, a conversation about what is the meaning of sexuality?
27:25
What is a sexual ethic? Why do sexual ethics matter?
27:29
Why is sexuality important? And for me, it comes back to the
27:35
fact that sex has the potential to bring life into the world.
27:40
And that is an extremely profound element of sexual
27:45
relations. It's existential, and this
27:50
program treats sexuality as if it is just another part of the
27:56
human experience, like eating lunch, one professor told me
28:00
when I objected to the comprehensive sexual
28:02
autobiography. Well, we ask you to reflect on
28:04
your own experiences in every course.
28:07
It's no different than writing your about your childhood, but
28:11
it is different because sex is private and it is existentially
28:16
significant. And it's deeply connected to the
28:19
core of the human person because along with bringing life into
28:21
the world, sex, I would say, is the most intimate thing you
28:24
could do with another person physically on a physical nature,
28:27
besides give birth to a baby, of course.
28:29
But, and I know we're both mothers here, but there's
28:33
nothing more intimate than sex. And we're not just bodies like
28:36
flesh, like doing some sort of dance together.
28:39
There's souls, there's human souls that are also involved
28:42
here. But if you look at the if you
28:45
approach, I think human sexuality purely
28:47
materialistically, then like, like animals in different
28:51
configurations, then yeah, I think you can say anything goes.
28:57
It doesn't really matter. This is just like, you know,
29:00
some, some kind of crazy diet or outfit choice that you might
29:03
have that you would want to go and flick paint on somebody
29:07
during during sex. I mean, were you surprised when
29:10
this happened, Naomi? I was shocked.
29:13
So I'll tell you a little bit to continue the story.
29:16
So when I re enrolled in this in this requirement, because like I
29:21
said, I needed it to begin to practice, I asked for the same
29:25
accommodation that Muslim women students had received to take
29:29
the course as an independent study.
29:32
At that point, the new professor scheduled a Zoom meeting with me
29:35
to hear my concerns instead of just granting my my equal
29:39
religious accommodation. In that conversation, he
29:44
promised a an atmosphere of professionalism and he promised
29:48
there would be no required sexual disclosures.
29:51
And admittedly, I agreed to attend in person instead of
29:55
standing up for the right that I did have to an equal religious
29:58
accommodation. That was a mistake.
30:02
What I discovered in the class was a hostile learning
30:06
environment of a sexual nature. We were played how to bondage
30:12
video tutorials. One was a a woman who was
30:18
teaching us how to tie butterfly knots to restrain a man in a
30:24
GIMP suit. And for folks who don't know, a
30:26
GIMP suit is a full body, face covering, full body suit to, in
30:33
my view, dehumanize somebody. And that was in order to tie him
30:38
up to furniture or to a Saint Andrew's Cross, which is part of
30:42
the the BDSM culture as well. That sounds sacrilegious.
30:48
Very intentional. Yeah, I mean, they intentionally
30:52
invoke religious symbolism, certainly.
30:56
And my final straw was a sex dungeon tour of a ABDSM sex
31:02
dungeon. And a woman influencer went into
31:05
a commercial sex dungeon and she was flogged, electroshocked,
31:12
wrapped barren plastic ball gagged.
31:17
And I found the images of the violence against this woman to
31:22
be so disturbing that I began to cry, actually.
31:27
And I began to cry because seeing somebody be gratified by
31:35
hurting another person offends how I see the dignity of the
31:41
human soul. So after the video ended, the
31:46
professor said, So what do you think?
31:48
Who wants to try it? And at that point, I just had
31:52
had enough. And I raised my hand and I said,
31:55
this is unacceptable. This is this is not right.
31:59
There is one world view that is acceptable in this room.
32:03
And I can't do this anymore. And I walked out and on my way
32:09
out, I, I told the class I, I told the class my e-mail and I
32:13
said if anybody has similar concerns, reach out.
32:14
No one did. No one did.
32:22
So at that point, I asked again for the religious accommodation
32:25
to complete this course remotely.
32:27
I would do the syllabus, but the department chair told me no,
32:32
that I could drop this course or be dropped.
32:36
Said, OK, she gave me an accommodation to complete this
32:39
requirement through continuing education courses, which I would
32:44
have to pay for out of pocket. And I said, OK, could you please
32:47
help me get a refund for this course because it's been a
32:49
hostile learning environment. And she said the fact that
32:52
you're asking for an A refund is astonishing.
32:57
And after everything that had occurred in that classroom, that
33:02
was so surprising to to hear that she said that she thought
33:05
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33:08
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34:09
What happened next? Where are you at now in that
34:11
process? Yeah, well, meanwhile in my
34:17
program that I, I've been discovering critical theory is,
34:21
is affecting this field of psychology at large.
34:25
I began writing a book. I just needed to write my
34:29
thoughts down. And in doing that, I've been
34:31
reaching out to individuals who both have been speaking out
34:35
against this trend and individuals that are the
34:38
heavyweights in in the field, you know, American Psychological
34:43
Association leadership. And one person I was put in
34:48
touch with saw the work that I was doing.
34:51
She heard my story and she said this is important, you need to
34:56
pursue this. And so I, I wrote down my
34:59
thoughts. It started with, I don't know,
35:01
4000 words and I had to get it down to 750 or whatever it was.
35:05
And I submitted it to the Wall Street Journal and they ran the
35:08
story. Since then, I haven't received a
35:12
word from the university and personal channels.
35:16
They put out a public statement falsely saying that there was no
35:20
required sexual disclosure in this previous course and
35:24
insinuating that I didn't go through the proper channels.
35:27
But Lila, I exhausted every channel in good faith.
35:31
I went to the professor, to the chair, to the Dean, to the
35:35
Provost, to the president, to the Title 9 office, to campus
35:40
ministry. I was showing a priest this
35:44
curriculum, this erotica, these pornographic images, And what he
35:50
did was offer me prayer. And I'm desperate for help at
35:54
this point. So I'm frustrated with the
35:59
university and I feel let down. I feel betrayed by people who
36:03
were meant to mentor me and for me as a therapist.
36:09
This is the priest. The chaplain you spoke to was a
36:11
priest or a chaplain at Santa Clara University.
36:14
Did he have to say anything else about what his school was doing?
36:18
He was appalled. He he saw how astonishing, to
36:23
borrow a phrase, the material was, but he didn't offer any
36:28
material support to me. Have you talked to any
36:31
attorneys? Yes.
36:32
Since this has taken place. Yes.
36:35
And I can't discuss specifics, but I will say that I have
36:39
spoken to attorneys and I will be pursuing every channel
36:44
available to remedy this for future students because this is
36:50
not OK. I know that students are being
36:52
coerced sexually and being subjected to a hostile learning
36:56
environment of a sexual nature and that religious rights are
36:59
being infringed upon, and I find that to be unacceptable.
37:04
I think about if this was done in the corporate world, yeah,
37:07
where you're telling your subordinates that you need to
37:12
watch BDSM pornographic activities and then joking about
37:18
participating in those activities.
37:20
I am at, you know, requesting sexual information personally
37:24
from the the subordinates. You know, any number of what
37:28
you're things of what you're describing sound patently
37:31
abusive, not just inappropriately inappropriate,
37:33
but abusive sexual harassment. And and it seems also there's
37:41
this group think they're that everyone thinks it's this is how
37:43
we do things. This is normal and no one has
37:45
stood up and said the emperor has no clothes so far anyways.
37:49
I did. Except you.
37:52
I did, and it didn't come with, without many tears, prayer,
37:58
conversations with my family. I I've gotten the accusation
38:03
that I am doing this for money, which is astonishing to me
38:09
because I've put myself at an immense professional and
38:14
reputational risk by taking on this institution.
38:17
And I am burning bridges with very powerful people both at my
38:23
school and in the field of psychology.
38:25
But I think it is that crucial because Lila therapists are
38:31
touching the most intimate areas of people's lives now, and
38:36
instead of getting a rigorous education and how to help
38:40
people, we are getting an ideological framework pushed on
38:43
us. What is going to happen 10 years
38:48
down the line when all of these these therapists are launched
38:51
into the field and this is the pool of psychologists and mental
38:53
health professionals that are available for when people truly
38:56
need help? I mean, to me it sounds like I
38:59
have, you know, as the, as the folks listening.
39:02
No, I have we, we often cover sexuality issues on the show.
39:07
And it just sounds like not just the desensitization of the
39:11
people who are supposed to be guides, not necessarily to my
39:16
personal specific theological differences that I may have with
39:19
you, but guides to truth, generally speaking, to the truth
39:22
about how we can help this person, how they can see
39:24
themselves so they can come become healthier.
39:27
But instead to desensitize and to really push what is, I would
39:33
say absolutely a lack of health, a lack of what's going to bring
39:36
about human flourishing. So now the end game, instead of
39:39
it being health, like a healthier outcome for the
39:41
patient, there's no end game of health.
39:45
And we're not even defining what health is.
39:47
That's the big gaping hole in my education.
39:51
It's just not there. It's anything goes.
39:54
And I, as a therapist, need to understand what is healthy.
39:58
And they say, Oh well, that's that's judging.
40:02
Well, we're, we're going to need to have some good judgement,
40:04
right? So if someone came to you like
40:08
in, in the education you've received so far for your, to
40:13
become a therapist, someone came to, if you're, if you're dealing
40:16
with a patient who's struggling with anorexia as an example, and
40:19
they're starving themselves, they have poor body image.
40:23
You, I, I, I, my understanding is because in the DSM that is an
40:26
actual condition, anorexia, you would be able to help them guide
40:30
them towards understanding. This is a, you know, you might
40:33
have root beliefs that are harmful to you or why you're
40:35
having this compulsion to avoid food or to binge and to, to, you
40:39
know, throw up or whatever the activity is.
40:41
And that would be the framework that you'd enter that
40:43
conversation with potentially. OK, but when it comes to
40:47
whipping someone for sexual arousal, that is not a
40:52
conversation about why are you, Why do you want that?
40:57
What what's your framework? Instead?
40:58
It's like, great, you. I mean, it sounds like what
41:00
Santa Clara wants to do is say, great, tell me about what you
41:03
had for lunch. I mean, what do what?
41:04
What do they want you to do with a patient who may come with you,
41:07
a client who might come with you and say I'm aroused by violence?
41:12
I think that they would want me to be educated in how to
41:15
maintain physical safety. So for, for example, one of our
41:20
our guest lecturers in the human sexuality class was a woman who
41:25
was discussing if a teenage girl comes comes to you and is
41:29
talking about how she's engaging in anal sex.
41:33
And it is the role of the therapist to instruct her on,
41:38
you know, which lubrication to use and to cosign that child's
41:44
that child's decision not to engage her parents in a
41:47
conversation about her sexuality.
41:50
Like a, Like a? How old would this theoretical
41:52
child be? Like a teenager, a teenager,
41:54
like a 15 year old. Underage.
41:56
Yeah. Underage child, Yeah.
41:58
Part of this directive from your teachers was if you have a young
42:03
girl who wants who tells you she's doing anal sex, you're not
42:07
only supposed to encourage her or you're not only supposed to
42:10
affirm that you don't need to tell her parents, it's
42:12
completely her privacy, but also give her tools for how to
42:17
continue doing that activity. That's right.
42:20
And I'm under no illusion that teenagers engage in risky sexual
42:25
behavior. That is true.
42:26
And physical safety is also important.
42:29
But there is no discussion on how do we talk to teenage
42:33
clients about what is what is healthy sexuality.
42:38
I want to work with children, Lila.
42:39
I want to work with teenagers. And I'm not getting an education
42:42
in how to speak with them about these things.
42:46
Well, it sounds like the framework that Santa Clara has
42:48
and, and, and it's more than Santa Clara.
42:50
I know we're keep talking about Santa Clara, but it sounds like
42:52
this may be systemic everywhere is that there is no moral yes or
43:00
Nos for anyone involved in sex, provided that there is consent
43:04
even for children who technically can't consent.
43:06
That's the irony there. That's right.
43:08
You can't consent when you're a child.
43:09
But doesn't matter. You, you let you let the child
43:13
do what they want to do. It sounds like this is the
43:15
approach. That's right, yeah.
43:18
When you're starting to think, well it can, I will, I share my
43:20
story. Were you afraid of any backlash?
43:23
I mean, you were already not given the religious
43:25
accommodation. You were already told that that
43:28
was the astonishing word was used when you were asking about
43:32
getting a refund for this hostile environment class that
43:35
you had to, you know, you weren't able to take.
43:38
Was there any pushback that you other push that back that you
43:42
got? You know, not from the school so
43:45
far, but I was terrified. And I have reason to believe,
43:50
and I can't say how I know, but that they were making plans to
43:55
expel me. That's a legend that's not in
44:01
writing. But I believe it because my
44:06
worldview is hostile to theirs. And it goes back to critical
44:11
theory, right? Because part of critical theory
44:13
is the incompatibility with other worldviews.
44:19
So let's say the judeo-christian tradition or a humanistic
44:25
worldview. Those worldviews can coexist
44:28
with others. With critical theory, they argue
44:32
that anybody who disagrees with that ideology is upholding the
44:36
dominant norms and needs to be subverted as an oppressor.
44:39
Yeah, so I, I'm stuck. I'm stuck and I, I don't know
44:46
how to to explain myself in a way I can say it as kindly as I,
44:53
as I can with as much love, affirming human dignity that
44:57
every individual is made in the image of God.
45:00
That and in the humanistic tradition, that would mean that
45:03
every individual is infinitely valuable.
45:06
And I want to have these dialogues.
45:08
I want to have conversations but I'm being stifled and I'm being
45:12
maligned and it's, it's not fair and I'm done staying silent.
45:18
Why do you think they gave Muslim women religious
45:21
exemptions and not you? I don't know I I truly don't
45:28
know. Part of critical theory is
45:34
dismantling the oppressive norms, and one of those
45:39
oppressive norms is the Christian tradition.
45:43
I won't try to say that they weren't accommodating me because
45:47
of the Christianity, but I'm curious too.
45:49
I have that question as well. Since this Wall Street Journal
45:53
article came out just a few days ago, have you and you've been
45:56
more public with your story? Have you heard from other people
46:00
in other institutions, other programs who are seeing similar
46:05
kinds of coursework like what you are subjected to?
46:09
Dozens, dozens people are emailing me from all over the
46:13
country. Naomi, thank you for saying it.
46:16
I've been thinking about speaking up.
46:18
I don't know how to. I'm scared these are these are
46:21
therapists and training. Therapists and training.
46:24
And that's why I did this, because I know that I'm not
46:27
alone. I know people in my program who
46:30
are coerced and who, who don't like this and who know that it's
46:33
wrong, but they're scared. And at a certain point I just
46:36
could not do it anymore. It's you know, I'm not going to
46:40
fight every single battle. I know it's important to pick
46:43
your battles. I've, I've gone through a lot of
46:46
education where I think some ideas are suspect and have have
46:52
thoughts to myself. Like I don't know if I quite
46:55
agree with that, but I don't make a big stink about it.
46:58
But institutionalized sexual harassment of this nature that's
47:03
reportedly been going on since the 1980s?
47:06
How does a hill all die on? And it's protecting future
47:10
therapists, which I, I, I, I have such admiration for you
47:14
from what is, I believe, sexual harassment.
47:16
It's abusive, but it also seems it's, it's more than that.
47:20
You're also protecting future patients because how are how
47:25
does this approach to psychology and therapy impact a patient who
47:29
shows up? We talked about those that might
47:31
have gender dysphoria, but people that would show up and
47:33
maybe be abused or struggle with tendencies to abuse or be
47:38
addicts have a sexual addiction or tendency to sexual addiction
47:42
and they're wrestling with that. How?
47:43
How is this framework that you are being they're trying to
47:46
propagandize you with? How's that framework going to
47:49
actually help that patient? It's not it's going to
47:53
perpetuate harm and we're we're abandoning clients when they
47:57
need help. Folks need to understand that
47:59
therapists aren't being trained adequately, at least in this
48:05
prestigious Jesuit university that I go to, to help people
48:11
where they are with the full set of tools that therapists need to
48:16
have. Because the priority of the
48:19
training is ideological alignment and it is not clinical
48:23
skills training. And I, I came into the
48:26
profession because I want to help people.
48:29
I want to learn clinical skills. I want to learn evidence based
48:33
practices to meet people in their suffering and see them
48:39
through it and walk with them in that in that journey.
48:43
They haven't kicked you out. No.
48:46
You Have you heard anything from them since you published the
48:48
Wall Street Journal article? I have not heard a word from
48:51
them, which is disappointing because I've been asking to
48:55
speak with the administration for quite some time now, nearly
48:59
a year. And this began with me wanting
49:03
to be heard as a student from the people who are charged with
49:07
providing me a quality Jesuit education.
49:12
And I have legitimate concerns. I know they're legitimate and
49:16
I'm being rebuffed and I'm continuing to be rebuffed.
49:19
And they're hiding behind legal language now with their non
49:23
denial, denial in response instead of speaking to me.
49:29
And now it, it's become a public matter.
49:32
And I, I don't enjoy this. I don't want to be a public
49:37
figure. Lila.
49:39
I don't know. I don't think I'm cut out to be
49:42
a public figure. This is extremely stressful.
49:45
But I didn't have any other choice because they have been
49:48
stonewalling me and they're putting students at risk and
49:52
therefore they're putting clients at risk.
49:54
What are some of the horror stories that you've heard from
49:56
other students, if you can share?
49:59
Yeah. From outside of Santa Clara.
50:00
From outside of Santa Clara, I had one student e-mail me and
50:04
say that when she learned about BDSM in her course, they brought
50:09
in sex toys, like personal sex toys and bondage devices.
50:16
Somebody emailed that to me. I mean, I don't know.
50:20
I don't know what to do with all of this information aside from
50:24
continuing to speak out and provide a blueprint for how to
50:28
do it. So I my advice to anybody in a
50:33
similar situation is exhaust every channel in good faith in
50:37
your university. Document everything.
50:41
File title 9 complaints if you're experiencing sexual
50:44
harassment. If you get rebuffed, file a
50:49
FERPA request. That's what I've done.
50:50
I've requested all of my educational records, every
50:55
communication that the university officials have made
50:59
about me. This.
51:00
Is surely happening according to the reports you're hearing about
51:02
other universities and that no one is really talking about this
51:05
except for you. You're the one who stood up
51:07
first and started to talk about it.
51:09
Right, right. And I've heard murmurs of, you
51:12
know, it's other Catholic students.
51:14
Earlier I mentioned that nobody in the class emailed me.
51:16
I want to be clear, when I was, when I was mentioning that other
51:20
students in this program are speaking out, it's other
51:22
Christian students in other sections.
51:25
But when I stood up in this room of 20 people, I was alone.
51:30
Well, it's scary when you're trying to get that degree to
51:33
you're probably going to student debt to get it and standing up,
51:37
you know, against the authority figures, you know, your
51:40
professors, the, the system at the school.
51:44
It's, it can be daunting. It is you, you wonder, is my
51:47
degree at risk or more? Is more my reputation, my
51:50
professional future at risk? And it might be Lila.
51:53
I still don't know what's going to happen even in this culture,
51:57
even coming on your show. And you are someone I respect so
52:01
much and who I also disagree with about some things.
52:06
But but even being affiliated with somebody like you because
52:11
of your positions is I'm guilty by association in this in this
52:16
culture, even though I'm not Co signing every single opinion you
52:21
ever have. Heck, I don't even agree with my
52:23
husband on every every single policy or politician.
52:28
You know, we don't need to have total agreement, total
52:32
alignment. We need as therapists to be able
52:36
to speak openly about our concerns and about about
52:39
important issues with people who we disagree with.
52:41
And that's not what I'm finding. I think I I want to state again,
52:47
which is something that I'm going to have to continue
52:49
stating unfortunately, that I am not out here to be a partisan,
52:55
to stoke division, to call out anyone political side.
53:02
I am a student who has suffered sexual harassment and is
53:06
witnessing the sexual harassment of other students and I have
53:11
spoken up. I have gone through proper
53:13
channels. I am demanding at this point to
53:18
be heard and responded to substantively by the university,
53:22
and I will not be distracted by other people's efforts to make
53:26
this into something that it's not.
53:30
You're very brave, Naomi. Thank you for your courage and
53:33
speaking up, and thanks for coming on this podcast.
53:36
What, what is next for you? What are you planning to do
53:39
next? Yeah, well, I'm going to go home
53:42
to my baby tonight because this is the longest time I've been
53:46
away from her. And professionally, I hope that
53:50
I can continue to become a therapist and I will continue
53:53
conducting my research about ideological capture in the field
53:58
of psychology. I will continue to reach out to
54:01
leaders in the field and demand accountability and demand that
54:07
we have an open conversation and not to be silenced because this
54:13
is something so important to for, let me just say for the
54:18
country. Therapists are trained to listen
54:24
and to understand. And I am now in a group of
54:27
therapists who aren't listening, aren't understanding, and who
54:32
are maligning motives because I am raising valid concerns.
54:37
We need to demand leadership in psychology to listen and
54:42
understand everyone in this country because who else is
54:46
better equipped to do that? Thank you so much, Naomi.
54:50
Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to
54:52
this episode of the Lila Rose show.
54:54
Please show some support for Naomi by clicking the link to
54:57
her sub stack, which is LinkedIn the description and by
55:00
subscribing. The mission of the Lila Rose
55:02
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55:14
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55:23
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55:28
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55:31
And a big thank you to EWTN and their incredible mission to
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