Latest / Cinema Yūgen / Mad Max on Water: The Wild Birth of Waterworld

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Mad Max on Water: The Wild Birth of Waterworld · Cinema Yūgen

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G'day. That's right. It's that time again. Time for Cinema Yugen.
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Yes, welcome back. Yugenite Cinema Yugen Kentil back with you. Fan requested.
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Classic. Catching up on some of these friend requested classics
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been a bit busy with the the film threat stuff and other interviews but finally
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getting to them this friend requested classic is for peter rater who is the
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screenwriter behind my much loved film kevin costner's water world.
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Has its critics people think it's big dumb
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whatever it's mad max on water
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but what is incredible about it back in
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2019 when this interview was recorded
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arrow had just brought out
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their absolutely splendid version of water world which included both uh cuts
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of the film both beautifully restored to all their magnificent glory.
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I think it's since come out on 4K.
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But another part of it, which was something I was very much looking forward
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to and contacted the filmmaker, Daniel Griffith, who made the behind-the-scenes documentary,
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the ultimate documentary on Waterworld Maelstrom, the Odyssey of Waterworld.
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And in talking with Daniel about that, I confessed to him during that interview,
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that one of my first interviewees that I reached out to when I started working
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with Podcasting Softly,
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almost 10 years ago, next year will be 10 years, I reached out to Peter Rader
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because I was a huge Waterworld fan and I thought if anyone I could get to speak
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to, I could get to speak to the screenwriter.
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And I reached out and never got back to me, but oddly enough,
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after I interviewed Daniel about a Maelstrom of the documentary on the Arrow release of Waterworld.
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Peter Rader heard us
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talking or the universe and he
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answered his message and he said sure so
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the conversation picks up with Peter Rader the screenwriter behind Waterworld
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it picks up where I say Peter your ears must have been burning yeah I think
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that Daniel did a great job You know,
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he approached us about three months ago or so,
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you know, explaining that he had been contracted to do a behind-the-scenes doc,
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you know, coinciding with the 4K release of Waterworld.
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And we're all a little hesitant, us who have been involved in the Waterworld
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story, because so much of the press coverage was kind of a shark-feeding frenzy, if you will.
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And so, you know, I said, well, you know, I'll do it if Kevin Reynolds does this.
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He had to go try to get Kevin Reynolds.
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But he ended up getting practically everyone. And I think he did a really great
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job because he was interested in telling sort of the creative story rather than
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the political story behind Waterworld.
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And, you know, it was, you know, creatively, it was quite, quite an undertaking.
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Nothing had been done quite like that.
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The idea of doing the entire movie and shooting it practically on water rather
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than on a stage or in a tank was audacious, you know? Yeah, totally.
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The reason I said your ears must have been burning is because in
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that in in said interview with with Daniel regarding his
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his documentary I mentioned that when I first started doing this podcasting
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thing a few years back and I was sort of at odds with what to do because they
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they sort of gave me they they didn't give me any parameters what they wanted
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and I just finished watching Waterworld and I thought I would love,
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I love Waterworld so much as a film.
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I really wanted to talk to someone and I figured, well,
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Who could I get, you know, and how do I get them?
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And so I just happened to see you on Facebook and I wrote a very long plea to talk to you.
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And I wasn't trying to explain that I wasn't interested in talking about anything
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negative, but mainly the creative journey that you took.
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Writing the film, and also the development of it.
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And it's ironic that the next morning you sent me a little message simply saying, sure.
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Yeah, you know, and it's funny because I don't even check messages that often
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on Facebook, but I just happened to see her.
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I was like, why not? Let's do this. It'll be fun.
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You know, I actually, I have a lot of, despite it being, you know,
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it was both one of the most wonderful experiences of my career and also one
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of the most horrific at the same time, you know.
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It was the first script I ever wrote. And I was so naive and so fearless that
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I just kind of went for it.
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And, you know, it was sort of a Cinderella story, you know.
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I didn't even have an agent when I wrote it. And, you know, then like three
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weeks later, I had like a major agency. I had a 2-2 script deal and,
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you know, and I was suddenly, you know, right in the middle of Hollywood Development now.
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And it was really exciting, you know. We have a little bit of crossover in the
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fact that the man who came into the picture, the man that sort of has been credited
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with giving you the challenge of Mr.
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Cravoy, was also associated with a friend of mine Matt Greenberg who wrote 1408
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and Reign of Fire at the time,
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and and he was Matt was like uh curious because every time he would go in for a meeting Mr.
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Cruel Boy was would tell him stories about how he's uh I've got this I've got,
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Matt would pitch ideas apparently and he'd say oh no I got that beat I got uh
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I got this guy working on this script called it's like Mad Max on water so you
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need to come up with something better than that.
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That's so funny, because he turned me down. Brad, that's so Brad.
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That's very funny. He turned me down flat. I mean, the oft-repeated story,
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which has been reported in the press a couple of times, I'll just give you the elevator pitch of it,
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was Brad was working for Roger Corman at the time, and he was hustling away,
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and it was the sort of AFM era where everyone was getting foreign pre-sales,
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and he said, I've got some South African money.
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If you come up with a Mad Max ripoff, I'll let you direct it.
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And there were two moral dilemmas in that query.
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One was, was I willing to accept the South African blood money because apartheid
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was still in full force at the time?
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And unfortunately, the answer to that question was yes, being a Hollywood whore,
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a young 20-something that totally wanted to break in.
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But the second question was, was I willing to do a ripoff of something that
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was so tired at that point.
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You know, everyone was doing the same old, same old, you know,
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post-apocalyptic, in the desert, cheap, rusty, Mad Max ripoffs.
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And, you know, I kind of thought about it and said, what if we spun it in a
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completely different direction? I said, let's do it on water.
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And then he just laughed me out of the room. He said, that's crazy.
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That would cost $5 million. I'm not going to make that movie.
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Get out of here. And then, you know, I, right.
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I love that. I love that story, the fact that he said, you know,
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$5 million, you know, and when looking at it in the context of how much it would
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eventually go on to cost, he was, he was, I don't know if I'd like to see that
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$5 million version or not.
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It might be a bit, it might be a bit scant.
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Yeah, you know, I've seen some of the press surrounding this 4K release,
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and there is so much admiration for the fact that, you know,
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almost all the stunts were practical.
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I mean, they actually did. They had the wave runners and they had the zip lines.
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And then, you know, I think that's one of the reasons that Waterworld has endured
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is because Universal has actually made buckets of money on Waterworld,
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just to set the record straight.
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Waterworld is actually one of the most successful franchises in Universal history
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because they turned it into a theme park attraction, which began at Universal
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City here in Los Angeles,
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and then has since expanded, I think it's to five different locations.
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So, Bonaca, Dubai, Florida, and I forgot what the fifth one is,
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but where they're running this water-rolled stunt show, you know,
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five times a day to an arena that seats, you know, 1,500 people.
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So they're raking in money.
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To this day, these stunt shows are playing all over the world.
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Yes, and plus there was a dearth of, like, merchandise, which I still cling to tenaciously.
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I mean, there was novelizations, there was comic books, video game,
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action figures. is, you know, they sort of, they didn't half-ass it in terms
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of, you know, putting the film out there.
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Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, and there's kind of this kind of cult,
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you know, following at this point.
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I mean, you know, thank you so much for saying that you enjoy the film.
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But, you know, I honestly, that's the reaction that I mostly get.
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Most people say they really like the film, you know, even though it took this
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bashing in the press in 1995.
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But I think a lot of people have a lot of affection for that film. Yeah.
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And I mean, I, I have always, I mean, it's, it's more difficult today than it
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was then to avoid any of the press and reviews and things like that of,
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of, uh, movies before you see them.
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You know what I mean? Cause nine times out of 10 today, you've seen like a good
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chunk of the movie before you even get to the movie.
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I mean, there's trailers and TV spots and, and so much, you know,
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so much marketing back then it was easy to avoid.
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So going in, I had no idea of the bad, the bad press and, and all that sort
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of thing. I simply went to the movies as I often did.
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The only thing I'd seen was the, at that point was the teaser trailer,
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which I found was fascinating.
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And, you know, coming from the land of Mad Max, as I do, the idea of,
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of Mad Max on water was, was pretty darn appealing to me.
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I was like, that's, that's, that's great. that's so
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different because as you said by that point mad
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max you know a lot of italian rip-offs they
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were kind of just they were they'd kind of seen
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their day and they weren't getting any better and uh and so the idea of of a
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similar concept but in a completely different environment than some sort of
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uh you know post nuke or or post devastation wasteland desert,
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you know, ruined city sort of thing was really refreshing, I thought, anyway.
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Well, the irony is that if you do do a straight-ahead Mad Max rip-off,
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it actually can be a fairly inexpensive movie.
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I mean, all you need is a desert and a bunch of rusted-out vehicles.
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You don't need a lot of lighting equipment.
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You know, get some reflector boards and you're good to go and a handheld camera,
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and just bang it about a bit.
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But suddenly if you change that one element, you set it on water,
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it becomes whatever $175 million,
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action movie, which was I think the most expensive movie to date at that point
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and it held that record for five minutes.
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Until the Batman one with Schwarzenegger eclipsed us in two minutes later and
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then every movie is now that price.
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We live in an era of currently where there's a lot of talk about fake news.
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When I did finally come to read all of the material, like after I'd seen Waterworld,
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I wanted to know everything about it that I could because I loved it so much.
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Eventually there would come a book by a gentleman named Robert,
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James Robert Parrish, and he wrote a book simply titled Fiasco,
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A History of Hollywood's Most Iconic Flops.
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And of course waterworld and the postman and ishtar cleopatra popeye they're all in there.
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And you know in in doing research for these interviews and watching the documentary
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it was kind of nice to see some of those outlandish stories finally dispelled
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like for instance the most famous one is the set sunk.
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Right. Right. It's just one of those things, fake news, you know,
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one person spreads it and then everyone latches on to that, that rumor.
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Yeah. You know, that book was, was I quoted in that? I think that was one of
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the interviews that I was tricked into.
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If I was, you know, where the guy says, Oh, I want to write about Mark Rumpin.
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It's a book about the flops of Hollywood.
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But that's why we were a little cautious with Daniel Griffith.
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We were a little cautious before we did, but he ended up being a good guy.
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Yeah, you can rest assured. There's no direct quotes from you in it.
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I mean, he basically took probably the details from your interview,
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like how you came to write it, and then he's mainly concerned.
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There's obviously a lot of research in there that came from probably press at the time.
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I mean, there's a lot of... He seems to be more concerned with how much things
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cost and, you know, because,
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I mean, there's a rumor in there that must have been perpetuated at the time
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that the whole set-syncing thing cost the production something like $500,000 to refloat the set.
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I mean, there's some pretty exacting numbers that he got from somewhere,
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you know, and plus the other story,
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I think, that was dispelled the fact that Kevin Costner had like a $40,000 yacht
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or something to ferry him the 400 yards out from where he was staying to the
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set every day or something like that.
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So a lot of, you know, it paints, as most of these stories do.
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Sort of lumping these really great, some of these are really tremendous films,
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and simply turning them into tales of Hollywood hubris.
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Well, you know, the famous story about the creation of Century City out here
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in Los Angeles is that that was based on the disaster that we,
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from the 1960s, called Anthony and Cleopatra, the Liz Taylor,
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Richard Burton movie that, you know, cost probably much more than Wild World
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and real dollars at the time and was a disaster.
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And to pay for it, Fox had to sell part of its back lot and that became Century City now.
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Yeah, yeah. One of the key areas of Los Angeles where all the lawyers now have their offices.
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Yeah, so anyway, some burning questions I've had for you for a couple of years
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regarding your initial, I mean, I know that, you know, like you say in the documentary
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and like you've said, you know, this was your, it's, wow, it's kind of wild.
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Like there's, there's been some great stories of like first scripts from,
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from writers that I've spoken to.
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And this is a pretty like, you know,
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ostentatious, audacious, uh, debut for, for a script writer to,
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to, to have been the writer of this film that is both famous,
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infamous cult movie in some ways.
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So some of the, some of the concepts that I, I, that came through in the documentary
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and also from some reading about some of the stuff that you initially came up
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with that was obviously paired back for whatever reason.
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And it was brought up in the documentary, there was a lot, a lot of, pardon me,
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a lot more sort of religious type, a religious type theme running through it, like,
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and there's some elements still left of it, like, for instance,
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there's a pretty big one at the end where he's talking to the survivors before
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he goes to the D's to save Enola again.
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He says to them, you know, the world wasn't created in a deluge,
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it was covered by it, And someone yells out blasphemy, you know,
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I just wondered if there was the remnants of, of anything that you had in your
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initial draft regarding like,
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you know, the, the, you know, a type of a religious, you know,
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sort of like a, you know, something that, something that a type of religion
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or a type of, how should we say, spirituality that, that grew out of this, this society.
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Right. So when one creates these mythic alternate universes,
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and I have done a bunch of them, and almost all of them have not gotten made
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because they're so expensive,
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you have to write the entire universe.
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You have to create society from scratch and figure out all aspects of it,
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including religion and superstition and, you know,
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rituals and belief systems and social structure and all of that stuff needs
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to actually be worked out.
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Like, how does this world actually work? You know, how do they eat?
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You know, what currency do they trade?
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And all these types of things. So in that thinking, of course,
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was, you know, what are people's belief systems around the creation of the world?
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And there were, I wouldn't call it religious as much as mythic.
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I've always loved mythology and, you know, use it in most of the things that I write.
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So I was, you know, in one draft, we actually called dry land,
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it was called Ararat, you know, after the Noah's Ark myth, you know,
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where Noah's Ark landed, which is somewhere in Turkey.
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And, you know, there were some sort of hints at those stories of art in there,
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sprinkled throughout. But I also had a bunch of Greek mythology.
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At one point, the bad guy was called Poseidon, you know, yelled at Trident and
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sat on a clamshell throne.
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We kind of were searching for the tone for a while,
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you know, and then they sort of, you know, when David Tui came in,
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And they sort of went into this kind of, you know, rusty kind of more traditional tone.
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I was trying to be a little bit more fanciful in my original tone.
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Yeah. And I believe that, and this is prior to like some of the stuff that was
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in Pirates of the Caribbean.
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I believe you had some sort of concept where people were like more mutated,
19:32
like something about a dude with a crab arm and stuff like that.
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Yeah, there was one of the henchmen of the villain had a crab arm,
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had an enlarged, that was attached to his body somehow, prosthetically, you know.
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And, you know, in addition to the Mariner's Guild and things like that,
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yeah, I thought it was kind of, it would be fun to experiment with that a little bit more.
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Just in terms of, you know, it's like eye candy.
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It's stuff that you never see in movies. That's what we're always striving to
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do, is to give you something, wow, I haven't seen that before.
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You know so those were there were some ideas like
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that so so was there any like further like
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as you're developing this story like where
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the mariner came from or is there he or is he simply like
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sort of the outlaw josey wales like you or high
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plains drifter he doesn't have a did you develop anything regarding like his
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past and where he came from and if there are sure you know sure there's there
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were a number of drafts that had flashbacks of how he lost his wife and child
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in a savage attack by the smokers.
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But ultimately, it was decided that it's more interesting to have him just be
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mysterious, kind of like Shane, which Shane for sure is a template.
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I mean, I always say that Waterworld is a Western.
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But Shane is just a mysterious kind of drifter who comes into town and,
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you know, and helps the homesteaders send off the bad guys, and then he disappears,
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he goes away, and that's sort of a mythic archetype, you know, the loner.
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Kind of more interesting sometimes that just spell out exactly what happened
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to him, you know what I mean? Right, and from your original.
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From your original draft, the whole thing of where they have like almost a burial
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ceremony in the film with this recycling thing where they dump them into that
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pool of goodness knows what it is, the toxic waste or something.
21:32
Right, the organobar. Yeah. Yeah, that actually was not, and that was from another
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writer. I'm not even sure which writer.
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I don't know if David came up with that, but it was one of the writers that
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followed me that came up with that idea.
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Right, right. yeah because i was i
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was gonna say that this you know like what
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do i what was that stuff like you know because
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kevin's been i thought you know he spends
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out and i was sort of watching they go oh man what
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is that stuff and is it like corrosive or or something
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but he gets out of it all right and i thought man he's got to be glad to
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like jump in the water and wash that crap off whatever
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it is moon because it looked pretty gross but
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you know so i mean in the in the wake
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of of something like this which
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is like a huge beginning in you
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know into one's screenwriting career i mean it it wasn't the it wasn't the complete
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failure that as it was reported was there ever any talk of you know let's do
22:35
another one funny you should ask david tui and i are you listening universal.
22:43
David tui and i have been discussing pitching a sequel it's time for what it
22:48
will do for sure yeah i mean just think of what's been reported just in the
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last few months i think there was a report in the last couple weeks that you
22:56
know the water temperatures have been rising much faster than we thought,
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I think, you know, 400% faster or something.
23:02
So, you know, Waterworld, actually, you know, my original draft of Waterworld
23:09
was 86. So it was way ahead of its time in terms of, you know,
23:14
this kind of global warming thing.
23:16
Movie was eventually made in 95. But, you know, now, it's so a part of the sort of.
23:23
Just the zeitgeist, this whole idea of, you know, water, the water temperature
23:28
rising and the ice caps melting and what calamity that's going to cause.
23:33
So, you know, we're thinking it's time for a sequel and we have a really interesting
23:37
take on it, but can't tell you about that just yet. That's okay.
23:42
Take all my money now. I don't care. I want to see it.
23:45
Yeah, that's fantastic. but what
23:48
you know i often when i speak to screenwriters they
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talk about things that survive like because
23:55
you know you you did so much work and then of course
23:58
as is often the case you someone else is brought into to to polish i think is
24:05
the the polite word for it or you know or do some more writing because you've
24:11
you've kind of reached your you know your battery life as far as being the writer
24:15
on it and they bring on, you know,
24:17
someone else or maybe someone who has a bit more of a name so they can put a
24:21
name on the script that people will respond to because, you know,
24:26
in most cases, sometimes a lot of these are first-time writers like you were then.
24:30
But you said one of the things that survived all of the drafts and is in the movie is the peeing.
24:38
It starts off with him drinking his own whiz.
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Yeah, that was the first scene in my script, and it never changed.
24:45
It was in every draft of everyone's script, because it's such an iconic.
24:49
You know, we, movies are a visual medium, and we always say, show, don't tell.
24:56
Whenever you can show something with pictures rather than words,
25:00
you know, that's so much stronger than using exposition and people's,
25:04
you know, yak, yak, yakking about things like that.
25:06
So I always thought, you know, I mean, there's the, is it Samuel Taylor Collard
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to the poem, Water, Water Everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
25:16
Okay, how do you show that?
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Water everywhere. So the first idea was, well, you know, soon as Universal took
25:22
the script, it's like, my God, let's use the loco, let's use the world.
25:26
You know, let's actually zoom in on that planet and show that all the continents
25:30
have disappeared. So that's, you know, and then go in and descend on the ship.
25:34
And then the next thing is, you know, there's water everywhere,
25:37
but it's all, you know, staling.
25:39
It's a, you can't drink it. So what do you do about that?
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Well, what if he's got this device, this contraption? We show that right away
25:45
and we show how precious, you know, every drop is.
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So I'm proud of that scene. I love that scene.
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And he played it to the hill too. Like he does like squeeze every drop out of
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it and even like licks the tap and make sure he gets like every little,
25:59
every bit out of it that's possible.
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But I bring it up because that was that I bring it up because that was kind
26:05
of like this nice memory because I mean, I saw it in the theater in the cinema when it first came out.
26:11
And that was the bit where the movie lost my mother.
26:15
My mother was with me. Well, everyone, my whole family was with me.
26:19
And we're watching it. And she came out and she said, oh, my God.
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She said, what a way to start a movie, a guy drinking his own piss.
26:29
And she said, that just did me in. And I thought, wow, so you only had like
26:34
an hour and 40-something minutes left to go.
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But but she was that complete and she said
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did you like that baby i said i loved it i loved
26:44
it she said well that's good that you liked it but oh she
26:47
said that's terrible she said oh god she said i hope we don't live to to see
26:52
that come to fruition see that come to fruition because i'm not too keen on
26:56
the fact that i might have to one day you know whizzing a cup when i need like
27:00
a you know to make a cup of coffee or something like that because no water.
27:06
The thing is you can't please everyone my wife and I, my wife is a really talented
27:12
filmmaker and we have a production company together and we make films together
27:16
and I always tell her you know.
27:21
On any given film, 30% are going to love it. 30% are going to hate it.
27:26
And 40% in the middle, those are the people that you really need to please because
27:31
you got the ones on this end, and you're never going to get the ones on that end.
27:36
It's like the Olympics when they vote on the dives. They always eliminate the
27:40
high score, the low score, and they take the average of all the other scores
27:44
because sometimes it's all about sensibilities.
27:48
Now and i guess it's totally well with
27:51
your thing watching your mom's day yeah but no
27:54
it's i i absolutely love the film and i
27:59
have i have loved it since i've seen
28:01
it i still love it today this is a marvelous release
28:05
daniel's made a wonderful made the the
28:08
document as i said to him was all in my heart of hearts if
28:10
i ever got the opportunity i said i i hoped
28:13
i always hoped to make or I hoped someone
28:17
would make a film that told the the
28:20
creative story not the not the
28:23
media bash story behind this wonderful
28:26
wonderful movie and whether it was call it
28:29
fake call it luck call it karma not not
28:34
uh not four hours after I finished talking to him you got my message uh and
28:39
and I finally after three years got to do the interview that I was going to
28:43
kick off this whole thing with and talk about one of my favorite movies of all
28:47
time with the man who kicked it all off,
28:51
Peter Rader. It has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.
28:54
Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
28:57
Yes, Peter Rader, Waterworld. I love it. You should love it.
29:01
It's a film of its time and of a scale that they just don't make movies.
29:10
Like that anymore starting to sound like my mom and
29:13
dad they don't make pictures like that anymore but it's
29:16
true i'll put a link in the description check out
29:20
waterworld especially in the best possible version that you can get hold of
29:24
it and also daniel griffith's incredible documentary maelstrom the odyssey of
29:29
waterworld it is the most complete and comprehensive documentary or document
29:35
about the making of this extraordinary epic.
29:39
It is The Road Warrior on Water, and it is awesome. I will always love Waterworld.
29:50
Check the links in the description.
29:54
And as always, my little Eugenites, thank you for listening to us on Spotify
30:00
or wherever you choose to listen to your favorite podcasts.
30:03
I'm Kent Hill, and until next time, you've been listening to Cinema Zero Game.