Latest / The Living Conversation / Positive Psychology, Zen, and the Unity of Wisdom — with Nick Egan

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Positive Psychology, Zen, and the Unity of Wisdom — with Nick Egan · The Living Conversation

• 0:00
  Foreign.
• 0:15
  I'm
• 0:15
  Anthony
• 0:15
  Wright
• 0:16
  and
• 0:16
  I'm
• 0:16
  your
• 0:16
  host
• 0:17
  today
• 0:17
  on
• 0:17
  Attunement
• 0:18
  and
• 0:18
  the
• 0:18
  Living
• 0:19
  Conversation
• 0:19
  with
• 0:20
  my
• 0:20
  co
• 0:20
  host,
• 0:21
  Adam
• 0:22
  Meats.
• 0:22
  Welcome.
• 0:22
  And
• 0:22
  our
• 0:23
  guest
• 0:23
  today
• 0:23
  is
• 0:24
  Nick
• 0:24
  Egan.
• 0:26
  And
• 0:26
  before
• 0:26
  the
• 0:27
  break,
• 0:27
  Nick,
• 0:27
  we
• 0:27
  were
• 0:28
  talking
• 0:28
  about
• 0:30
  reflecting
• 0:30
  your.
• 0:31
  We
• 0:31
  are
• 0:32
  all
• 0:32
  sort
• 0:32
  of
• 0:32
  mirrors
• 0:33
  that
• 0:34
  are
• 0:34
  reflecting.
• 0:34
  But
• 0:35
  I
• 0:35
  also
• 0:35
  was
• 0:35
  curious
• 0:36
  about.
• 0:37
  I
• 0:37
  had
• 0:38
  asked
• 0:38
  you
• 0:38
  about
• 0:39
  your
• 0:39
  affiliation
• 0:40
  with
• 0:40
  Harvard,
• 0:41
  but
• 0:42
  you
• 0:43
  got
• 0:43
  into
• 0:44
  another
• 0:45
  point
• 0:45
  of
• 0:46
  discussion,
• 0:46
  so
• 0:47
  would
• 0:47
  you
• 0:48
  unfold
• 0:48
  that,
• 0:49
  please?
• 0:49
  We
• 0:49
  were
• 0:50
  talking
• 0:50
  about
• 0:50
  authority
• 0:51
  and
• 0:51
  authenticity.
• 0:53
  Where
• 0:53
  does
• 0:53
  one
• 0:53
  get
• 0:54
  authority?
• 0:54
  Right.
• 0:55
  And
• 0:57
  I'm
• 0:57
  of
• 0:57
  the
• 0:57
  strong
• 0:57
  opinion
• 0:58
  that
• 1:00
  as
• 1:00
  a
• 1:00
  coach,
• 1:01
  part
• 1:01
  of
• 1:01
  my
• 1:01
  job
• 1:02
  is
• 1:02
  to
• 1:02
  not
• 1:02
  cling
• 1:03
  to
• 1:03
  or
• 1:04
  perhaps
• 1:04
  actively
• 1:05
  dissuade
• 1:05
  people
• 1:06
  from
• 1:06
  seeing
• 1:07
  me
• 1:07
  as
• 1:07
  an
• 1:07
  authority
• 1:08
  in
• 1:08
  any
• 1:08
  way.
• 1:08
  Like,
• 1:09
  it's
• 1:09
  not.
• 1:10
  I'm
• 1:10
  not
• 1:10
  a
• 1:10
  consultant.
• 1:10
  I
• 1:10
  mean,
• 1:11
  I
• 1:11
  am
• 1:11
  a
• 1:11
  consultant.
• 1:11
  I
• 1:11
  do
• 1:12
  consult.
• 1:12
  But
• 1:13
  when
• 1:13
  you're
• 1:13
  doing
• 1:13
  coaching,
• 1:14
  the
• 1:15
  idea
• 1:15
  is
• 1:15
  that
• 1:16
  when
• 1:16
  I'm
• 1:17
  acting
• 1:17
  as
• 1:17
  a
• 1:17
  mirror,
• 1:18
  you
• 1:18
  come
• 1:18
  to
• 1:19
  the
• 1:19
  realization
• 1:19
  yourself
• 1:20
  of
• 1:20
  what
• 1:20
  the
• 1:20
  pattern
• 1:21
  is,
• 1:21
  and
• 1:21
  you
• 1:21
  actively
• 1:22
  choose
• 1:22
  whether
• 1:22
  or
• 1:23
  not
• 1:23
  you
• 1:23
  do
• 1:23
  that
• 1:23
  or
• 1:24
  you
• 1:24
  disrupt
• 1:25
  it
• 1:25
  or
• 1:25
  not.
• 1:26
  And
• 1:26
  so
• 1:26
  the
• 1:26
  idea
• 1:27
  is
• 1:28
  I'm
• 1:29
  sort
• 1:29
  of
• 1:29
  allergic
• 1:30
  to
• 1:30
  concepts
• 1:31
  of
• 1:31
  myself
• 1:32
  as
• 1:32
  an
• 1:32
  authority
• 1:33
  in
• 1:33
  any
• 1:33
  way,
• 1:33
  shape
• 1:33
  or
• 1:33
  form.
• 1:34
  Like,
• 1:34
  I
• 1:34
  don't
• 1:34
  know
• 1:35
  any
• 1:35
  more
• 1:35
  than
• 1:35
  anybody
• 1:36
  else.
• 1:36
  I
• 1:36
  have
• 1:36
  a
• 1:36
  master's
• 1:37
  degree
• 1:37
  in
• 1:38
  science.
• 1:38
  Yeah,
• 1:39
  yeah,
• 1:39
  exactly.
• 1:40
  And
• 1:41
  so
• 1:41
  what
• 1:41
  I
• 1:42
  tell
• 1:42
  people
• 1:42
  is
• 1:43
  like,
• 1:43
  look,
• 1:43
  choose
• 1:43
  the
• 1:44
  coach
• 1:44
  that
• 1:44
  you're
• 1:44
  most
• 1:45
  connected
• 1:45
  to,
• 1:46
  because
• 1:46
  that's
• 1:46
  where
• 1:46
  you're
• 1:46
  going
• 1:46
  to
• 1:47
  get
• 1:47
  the
• 1:47
  most
• 1:47
  value.
• 1:47
  It
• 1:48
  doesn't
• 1:48
  matter
• 1:48
  if
• 1:48
  they
• 1:49
  have
• 1:49
  PhD
• 1:49
  in
• 1:50
  Tibet
• 1:50
  and
• 1:50
  basket
• 1:50
  weaving
• 1:51
  or
• 1:51
  not.
• 1:52
  Well,
• 1:52
  you're
• 1:53
  coaching
• 1:53
  them
• 1:53
  about
• 1:53
  coaching.
• 1:57
  So
• 2:00
  in
• 2:01
  your
• 2:01
  LinkedIn,
• 2:02
  you
• 2:02
  say
• 2:02
  your
• 2:03
  background
• 2:03
  is
• 2:03
  in
• 2:03
  positive
• 2:04
  psychology.
• 2:06
  Certainly
• 2:07
  we've
• 2:07
  been
• 2:07
  talking
• 2:07
  about
• 2:07
  Asian
• 2:08
  philosophy,
• 2:08
  but
• 2:09
  can
• 2:10
  you
• 2:10
  go
• 2:10
  in
• 2:10
  a
• 2:10
  little
• 2:10
  bit
• 2:11
  more
• 2:11
  to
• 2:11
  positive
• 2:11
  psychology?
• 2:13
  Yeah,
• 2:14
  positive
• 2:14
  psychology.
• 2:16
  So
• 2:16
  there's
• 2:16
  been
• 2:17
  lots
• 2:17
  of
• 2:17
  waves
• 2:17
  of
• 2:18
  psychology.
• 2:18
  Right.
• 2:19
  There
• 2:19
  was
• 2:19
  behaviorism
• 2:20
  and
• 2:20
  then
• 2:20
  which
• 2:21
  was
• 2:21
  like,
• 2:21
  you
• 2:21
  know,
• 2:21
  I
• 2:21
  can,
• 2:22
  through
• 2:22
  positive
• 2:23
  and
• 2:23
  negative
• 2:24
  reward
• 2:24
  systems,
• 2:25
  I
• 2:25
  can
• 2:25
  make
• 2:25
  people
• 2:25
  do
• 2:26
  whatever
• 2:26
  I
• 2:26
  want.
• 2:26
  Or
• 2:26
  pigeons,
• 2:27
  at
• 2:27
  least.
• 2:28
  Or
• 2:28
  dogs.
• 2:30
  Yeah,
• 2:30
  exactly.
• 2:30
  Dogs.
• 2:31
  Like
• 2:31
  Pavlovian.
• 2:32
  Exactly.
• 2:32
  Then
• 2:33
  there's
• 2:33
  like
• 2:33
  transpersonal
• 2:34
  psychology,
• 2:34
  humanistic
• 2:35
  psychology.
• 2:36
  There's
• 2:37
  all
• 2:37
  these
• 2:37
  different
• 2:37
  ways.
• 2:38
  But
• 2:38
  it
• 2:38
  wasn't
• 2:38
  until,
• 2:39
  I
• 2:39
  think,
• 2:39
  1997,
• 2:40
  when
• 2:40
  a
• 2:41
  guy
• 2:41
  named
• 2:41
  Martin
• 2:41
  Seligman,
• 2:42
  who
• 2:42
  was
• 2:42
  the.
• 2:42
  He
• 2:43
  was
• 2:43
  the
• 2:43
  head
• 2:43
  of
• 2:44
  the
• 2:44
  apa,
• 2:44
  the
• 2:44
  American
• 2:44
  Psychological
• 2:45
  association,
• 2:46
  gave
• 2:46
  a
• 2:46
  speech
• 2:47
  at
• 2:47
  that
• 2:47
  conference
• 2:48
  about,
• 2:48
  and
• 2:48
  said
• 2:49
  we
• 2:49
  need
• 2:50
  a
• 2:50
  psychology
• 2:51
  that's
• 2:52
  a
• 2:52
  psychology
• 2:53
  of
• 2:53
  positivity
• 2:54
  that
• 2:54
  points
• 2:54
  towards
• 2:55
  flourishing.
• 2:56
  And
• 2:56
  that
• 2:56
  sort
• 2:56
  of
• 2:56
  created.
• 2:57
  Kicked
• 2:57
  off
• 2:57
  this
• 2:58
  modern
• 2:58
  terminology
• 2:59
  of,
• 2:59
  like,
• 2:59
  positive
• 2:59
  psychology,
• 3:00
  which,
• 3:01
  broadly
• 3:01
  defined,
• 3:02
  is
• 3:02
  the
• 3:03
  psychology
• 3:03
  of
• 3:04
  moving
• 3:04
  people
• 3:04
  who
• 3:05
  are
• 3:05
  doing
• 3:05
  sort
• 3:06
  of
• 3:06
  okay
• 3:06
  to
• 3:07
  really
• 3:07
  flourishing,
• 3:08
  whereas
• 3:09
  Some
• 3:09
  modalities
• 3:10
  in
• 3:10
  psychology
• 3:11
  look
• 3:11
  at
• 3:11
  people
• 3:11
  that
• 3:11
  are
• 3:12
  really
• 3:12
  struggling
• 3:13
  and
• 3:13
  trying
• 3:13
  to
• 3:13
  either
• 3:14
  heal
• 3:14
  those
• 3:14
  wounds
• 3:15
  or
• 3:15
  make
• 3:15
  them,
• 3:15
  you
• 3:15
  know,
• 3:16
  better
• 3:16
  adjusted.
• 3:18
  I
• 3:18
  remember
• 3:18
  Hillman
• 3:19
  talking
• 3:19
  about.
• 3:19
  James
• 3:20
  Hillman
• 3:20
  talking
• 3:20
  about,
• 3:21
  we've
• 3:21
  had
• 3:21
  100
• 3:21
  years
• 3:21
  of
• 3:22
  psychotherapy
• 3:22
  and
• 3:22
  people
• 3:23
  are
• 3:23
  just
• 3:23
  getting
• 3:23
  worse,
• 3:25
  Right?
• 3:25
  Yeah,
• 3:25
  exactly.
• 3:26
  Well,
• 3:27
  I
• 3:28
  mean,
• 3:28
  it's.
• 3:28
  There's
• 3:29
  the
• 3:29
  argument,
• 3:29
  like,
• 3:30
  it's
• 3:30
  no
• 3:30
  measure
• 3:31
  of
• 3:31
  health
• 3:32
  to
• 3:32
  be
• 3:32
  well
• 3:33
  adjusted
• 3:33
  in
• 3:33
  a.
• 3:37
  Yes.
• 3:38
  Well.
• 3:38
  And
• 3:39
  so
• 3:39
  what
• 3:40
  have
• 3:40
  you
• 3:40
  and
• 3:41
  Adam,
• 3:41
  what
• 3:42
  have
• 3:42
  you
• 3:42
  guys
• 3:42
  been
• 3:42
  talking
• 3:42
  about?
• 3:46
  Well,
• 3:46
  I
• 3:46
  just
• 3:46
  thought
• 3:46
  it
• 3:47
  was
• 3:47
  interesting
• 3:47
  what
• 3:48
  you
• 3:48
  quoted
• 3:49
  there.
• 3:50
  I
• 3:50
  definitely
• 3:52
  feel
• 3:52
  like,
• 3:53
  well,
• 3:54
  there's
• 3:55
  two
• 3:56
  sides
• 3:56
  that
• 3:56
  we
• 3:57
  need
• 3:57
  together,
• 3:57
  psychology
• 3:58
  and
• 3:58
  philosophy.
• 4:00
  Dr.
• 4:00
  Wu
• 4:01
  used
• 4:01
  to
• 4:01
  say,
• 4:01
  our
• 4:02
  mentor
• 4:02
  at
• 4:02
  CIS,
• 4:02
  we
• 4:03
  all
• 4:03
  took
• 4:03
  classroom.
• 4:03
  Dr.
• 4:04
  Wu,
• 4:04
  he
• 4:05
  used
• 4:05
  to
• 4:05
  say
• 4:05
  that.
• 4:07
  He
• 4:07
  used
• 4:08
  to
• 4:08
  say
• 4:08
  that
• 4:09
  psychology
• 4:10
  sometimes
• 4:10
  is
• 4:10
  criticized
• 4:11
  being
• 4:11
  too
• 4:11
  shallow
• 4:12
  and
• 4:13
  philosophy
• 4:13
  sometimes
• 4:14
  criticized
• 4:14
  by
• 4:15
  being
• 4:15
  too
• 4:15
  lofty.
• 4:15
  Ivory
• 4:16
  tower.
• 4:17
  So
• 4:17
  we
• 4:17
  need
• 4:17
  them
• 4:18
  both
• 4:18
  together.
• 4:18
  And
• 4:18
  so
• 4:18
  I
• 4:19
  think
• 4:19
  when
• 4:19
  you're
• 4:19
  talking
• 4:19
  about
• 4:19
  the
• 4:19
  psychology
• 4:20
  of
• 4:20
  positivity
• 4:21
  and
• 4:21
  flourishing,
• 4:22
  it
• 4:23
  kind
• 4:23
  of
• 4:23
  brings
• 4:23
  back
• 4:24
  the
• 4:24
  sense
• 4:24
  of
• 4:25
  Carl
• 4:25
  Jung
• 4:25
  where
• 4:26
  we're
• 4:26
  all
• 4:26
  on
• 4:27
  the
• 4:27
  hero's
• 4:27
  journey.
• 4:28
  We
• 4:28
  all
• 4:29
  need
• 4:29
  to
• 4:30
  find
• 4:30
  our
• 4:30
  soul
• 4:31
  in
• 4:32
  this
• 4:32
  type
• 4:33
  of
• 4:33
  language,
• 4:33
  and
• 4:33
  once
• 4:34
  we
• 4:34
  find
• 4:34
  it,
• 4:34
  we
• 4:34
  need
• 4:35
  to
• 4:35
  integrate
• 4:35
  it.
• 4:36
  So
• 4:37
  there's
• 4:38
  the
• 4:38
  roots
• 4:38
  there
• 4:38
  in
• 4:38
  psychology.
• 4:39
  But
• 4:40
  so
• 4:40
  often,
• 4:40
  like
• 4:40
  you
• 4:41
  were
• 4:41
  describing,
• 4:41
  it's
• 4:42
  just
• 4:43
  if
• 4:43
  you
• 4:43
  hang
• 4:43
  out
• 4:44
  with
• 4:44
  a
• 4:44
  lot
• 4:44
  of
• 4:44
  psychologists,
• 4:45
  you're
• 4:45
  gonna
• 4:45
  see
• 4:45
  them
• 4:45
  diagnosing
• 4:46
  everyone
• 4:46
  with
• 4:46
  the
• 4:47
  worst
• 4:47
  thing
• 4:47
  they
• 4:47
  could
• 4:47
  find
• 4:48
  in
• 4:48
  a
• 4:48
  person,
• 4:49
  you
• 4:49
  know?
• 4:49
  Yeah,
• 4:49
  I
• 4:50
  know.
• 4:50
  Right.
• 4:51
  Well.
• 4:51
  And
• 4:51
  I
• 4:52
  really
• 4:52
  like
• 4:52
  the
• 4:52
  idea
• 4:52
  about
• 4:53
  being
• 4:53
  well
• 4:53
  adjusted
• 4:54
  in
• 4:54
  a
• 4:54
  crazy
• 4:54
  world.
• 4:55
  I
• 4:55
  mean,
• 4:56
  wow.
• 4:57
  Wait
• 4:58
  a
• 4:58
  minute,
• 4:58
  hold
• 4:59
  on
• 4:59
  here.
• 5:00
  What
• 5:00
  do
• 5:00
  we
• 5:00
  want?
• 5:01
  You
• 5:01
  know?
• 5:02
  Yeah,
• 5:03
  you
• 5:04
  know,
• 5:04
  philosophy.
• 5:05
  And
• 5:06
  I'm
• 5:06
  thinking
• 5:06
  back
• 5:07
  to,
• 5:07
  like,
• 5:07
  in
• 5:08
  Indusibetan
• 5:09
  philosophy,
• 5:10
  there
• 5:10
  is
• 5:10
  like,
• 5:10
  Abhidharma,
• 5:11
  so
• 5:11
  the
• 5:11
  study
• 5:11
  of
• 5:12
  human
• 5:12
  psychology.
• 5:13
  Right.
• 5:14
  And
• 5:14
  then
• 5:14
  there
• 5:14
  is,
• 5:14
  like,
• 5:14
  philosophy
• 5:15
  and
• 5:15
  cosmology
• 5:16
  and
• 5:16
  all
• 5:16
  of
• 5:16
  that.
• 5:16
  So
• 5:16
  philosophy,
• 5:17
  meaning,
• 5:18
  like,
• 5:18
  how
• 5:18
  do
• 5:18
  things.
• 5:19
  What's
• 5:19
  the
• 5:19
  ontology
• 5:20
  of
• 5:21
  objects
• 5:21
  in
• 5:22
  the
• 5:22
  world?
• 5:22
  And
• 5:22
  how
• 5:22
  might
• 5:23
  I
• 5:23
  relate
• 5:23
  to
• 5:23
  that?
• 5:23
  And
• 5:23
  then
• 5:23
  there's
• 5:24
  cosmology.
• 5:24
  Like,
• 5:24
  where
• 5:25
  are
• 5:25
  all
• 5:25
  the
• 5:25
  different
• 5:25
  beings
• 5:26
  that
• 5:27
  those
• 5:28
  things
• 5:28
  are
• 5:28
  just
• 5:29
  different
• 5:30
  sides
• 5:30
  of
• 5:30
  the
• 5:30
  same
• 5:31
  sort
• 5:31
  of
• 5:31
  entity
• 5:32
  traditionally?
• 5:32
  And
• 5:32
  it
• 5:33
  wasn't.
• 5:33
  It
• 5:33
  was
• 5:33
  kind
• 5:33
  of
• 5:34
  an
• 5:34
  invention
• 5:34
  of
• 5:34
  the
• 5:35
  modern
• 5:35
  West.
• 5:35
  I
• 5:35
  would
• 5:35
  say,
• 5:35
  like,
• 5:36
  past.
• 5:37
  Past
• 5:38
  kind
• 5:38
  of
• 5:38
  the
• 5:38
  Neoplatonists,
• 5:39
  right
• 5:40
  after
• 5:41
  that.
• 5:41
  And
• 5:41
  then
• 5:41
  it
• 5:41
  was
• 5:41
  like,
• 5:41
  well,
• 5:42
  we're
• 5:42
  gonna
• 5:42
  focus
• 5:43
  on
• 5:43
  this,
• 5:43
  like,
• 5:43
  as
• 5:44
  this
• 5:44
  philosophy,
• 5:44
  and
• 5:44
  we're
• 5:45
  gonna
• 5:45
  focus
• 5:45
  on
• 5:45
  this
• 5:45
  as,
• 5:46
  like,
• 5:46
  the
• 5:46
  study
• 5:46
  of
• 5:47
  nature,
• 5:47
  etc,
• 5:48
  and
• 5:48
  then
• 5:48
  like,
• 5:48
  science
• 5:49
  and
• 5:49
  chemistry
• 5:49
  coming
• 5:49
  out
• 5:50
  of
• 5:50
  that
• 5:50
  and
• 5:50
  all
• 5:50
  that.
• 5:51
  So
• 5:51
  it
• 5:51
  was
• 5:51
  all
• 5:51
  artificial
• 5:52
  divisions.
• 5:53
  Yeah,
• 5:54
  yeah.
• 5:54
  So
• 5:54
  it's
• 5:54
  like
• 5:54
  my
• 5:55
  In
• 5:55
  Buddhist
• 5:55
  philosophy,
• 5:56
  you
• 5:57
  know,
• 5:57
  the
• 5:57
  psychology
• 5:57
  is
• 5:58
  like,
• 5:58
  okay,
• 5:58
  how
• 5:58
  can
• 5:59
  I
• 5:59
  understand
• 5:59
  how
• 5:59
  the
• 5:59
  mind
• 6:00
  works?
• 6:00
  And
• 6:00
  then
• 6:00
  how
• 6:01
  might
• 6:01
  I
• 6:01
  better
• 6:02
  use
• 6:02
  that
• 6:03
  to
• 6:03
  further
• 6:03
  myself
• 6:04
  down
• 6:04
  the
• 6:04
  spiritual
• 6:04
  path
• 6:05
  in
• 6:05
  a
• 6:05
  really
• 6:05
  tactical
• 6:05
  result.
• 6:06
  Right.
• 6:06
  And
• 6:06
  then.
• 6:07
  And
• 6:07
  also
• 6:07
  on
• 6:07
  philosophy,
• 6:08
  it's
• 6:08
  like,
• 6:08
  well,
• 6:09
  how
• 6:09
  do
• 6:09
  things
• 6:10
  exist
• 6:10
  in
• 6:10
  the
• 6:10
  world?
• 6:11
  And
• 6:11
  then
• 6:11
  how
• 6:12
  might
• 6:12
  I
• 6:12
  use
• 6:12
  that
• 6:12
  to
• 6:13
  be
• 6:13
  furthering
• 6:13
  my
• 6:14
  spiritual
• 6:14
  path?
• 6:15
  Yeah,
• 6:15
  yeah.
• 6:16
  So
• 6:16
  all
• 6:16
  of
• 6:16
  this
• 6:16
  to
• 6:17
  say
• 6:17
  like,
• 6:17
  yeah,
• 6:17
  I
• 6:17
  strongly
• 6:18
  agree.
• 6:18
  I
• 6:18
  think
• 6:18
  that
• 6:19
  the
• 6:19
  division's
• 6:19
  artificial
• 6:20
  and
• 6:21
  one.
• 6:23
  Yeah,
• 6:24
  well,
• 6:24
  and
• 6:24
  I
• 6:24
  was
• 6:25
  listening
• 6:25
  to
• 6:27
  a
• 6:27
  conference
• 6:28
  on
• 6:28
  psychedelics
• 6:28
  and
• 6:29
  Deepak
• 6:29
  Chopra
• 6:30
  was
• 6:30
  talking
• 6:30
  about,
• 6:32
  in
• 6:32
  the
• 6:32
  west,
• 6:33
  our
• 6:33
  ontological
• 6:34
  primitive
• 6:34
  is
• 6:34
  matter.
• 6:35
  It's
• 6:35
  stuff,
• 6:36
  it's
• 6:36
  subject,
• 6:37
  object.
• 6:38
  And
• 6:40
  in
• 6:41
  the
• 6:41
  east,
• 6:41
  the
• 6:41
  ontological
• 6:42
  primitive
• 6:43
  is
• 6:43
  consciousness.
• 6:45
  And
• 6:45
  that's
• 6:46
  actually,
• 6:47
  as
• 6:48
  a
• 6:48
  physicist,
• 6:49
  what
• 6:50
  I
• 6:50
  think,
• 6:50
  what.
• 6:50
  I
• 6:50
  really
• 6:51
  admire
• 6:51
  the
• 6:51
  work
• 6:51
  of
• 6:52
  B.
• 6:52
  Allen
• 6:52
  Wallace
• 6:53
  because
• 6:53
  he
• 6:54
  really
• 6:56
  articulates
• 6:58
  what
• 6:59
  his
• 7:00
  understanding
• 7:01
  is
• 7:01
  and
• 7:01
  how
• 7:02
  to.
• 7:03
  How
• 7:03
  do
• 7:04
  I
• 7:04
  say
• 7:04
  it?
• 7:05
  Be
• 7:05
  unencumbered
• 7:07
  by
• 7:09
  any
• 7:09
  sort
• 7:09
  of
• 7:09
  idea
• 7:11
  in
• 7:12
  experience.
• 7:14
  He
• 7:14
  has
• 7:14
  a
• 7:15
  great
• 7:15
  book
• 7:15
  called
• 7:16
  the
• 7:16
  Magic
• 7:17
  of
• 7:17
  Reality,
• 7:17
  talking
• 7:18
  about
• 7:18
  the
• 7:18
  intersection
• 7:19
  of
• 7:19
  modern
• 7:19
  physics
• 7:20
  and
• 7:22
  the
• 7:22
  magic
• 7:22
  of
• 7:23
  reality.
• 7:23
  Theoretical
• 7:24
  perspective.
• 7:24
  Okay.
• 7:25
  It's
• 7:25
  a.
• 7:26
  It's
• 7:26
  a
• 7:26
  great,
• 7:26
  great
• 7:27
  work.
• 7:27
  And
• 7:28
  yet
• 7:28
  he
• 7:28
  does
• 7:28
  talk
• 7:29
  about
• 7:29
  that.
• 7:29
  And
• 7:31
  he,
• 7:32
  Deepak
• 7:32
  Chopra
• 7:33
  is
• 7:33
  right.
• 7:33
  Like
• 7:33
  the
• 7:33
  fundamental.
• 7:36
  At
• 7:36
  least
• 7:36
  in
• 7:36
  the
• 7:37
  Indic
• 7:37
  traditions,
• 7:38
  possibly
• 7:39
  you
• 7:39
  can
• 7:39
  make
• 7:39
  the
• 7:39
  claim
• 7:40
  in
• 7:40
  the
• 7:40
  Chinese
• 7:40
  traditions
• 7:41
  too.
• 7:41
  Yep.
• 7:42
  What's
• 7:42
  the
• 7:42
  fundamental
• 7:43
  building
• 7:43
  block
• 7:44
  of
• 7:44
  matter
• 7:45
  would
• 7:45
  be
• 7:45
  consciousness
• 7:46
  itself.
• 7:46
  Right.
• 7:47
  And
• 7:47
  so
• 7:47
  that's
• 7:48
  vibration.
• 7:50
  Yeah.
• 7:50
  And.
• 7:50
  But
• 7:50
  if
• 7:50
  you
• 7:51
  look
• 7:51
  at
• 7:51
  like
• 7:51
  German
• 7:51
  solipsism,
• 7:52
  what
• 7:52
  they
• 7:53
  talk
• 7:53
  about
• 7:53
  is
• 7:53
  like,
• 7:53
  it's
• 7:54
  all
• 7:54
  my
• 7:54
  mind,
• 7:55
  you
• 7:55
  know,
• 7:55
  so
• 7:55
  it's
• 7:55
  all
• 7:56
  projection
• 7:56
  of
• 7:56
  my
• 7:56
  mind,
• 7:57
  which
• 7:57
  is
• 7:58
  actually
• 7:58
  not
• 7:59
  the
• 7:59
  way.
• 7:59
  And
• 7:59
  then
• 7:59
  people
• 8:00
  say,
• 8:00
  well,
• 8:00
  isn't
• 8:00
  Buddhism
• 8:01
  solipsistic?
• 8:01
  And
• 8:02
  it's
• 8:02
  not.
• 8:02
  No,
• 8:03
  it's
• 8:03
  not
• 8:04
  a
• 8:04
  projection
• 8:04
  of
• 8:04
  my
• 8:04
  mind.
• 8:05
  It's
• 8:05
  all
• 8:06
  the
• 8:06
  substrate
• 8:06
  of
• 8:07
  phenomena,
• 8:07
  the
• 8:07
  mind.
• 8:09
  So
• 8:09
  that's
• 8:10
  a
• 8:10
  different
• 8:10
  thing
• 8:10
  than
• 8:11
  one
• 8:12
  leads
• 8:12
  to
• 8:12
  ego
• 8:12
  clinging,
• 8:13
  the
• 8:13
  other
• 8:13
  leads
• 8:13
  to
• 8:13
  freedom.
• 8:14
  So
• 8:14
  it's
• 8:15
  quite
• 8:15
  different.
• 8:15
  I
• 8:16
  remember
• 8:16
  Alan
• 8:16
  Watts
• 8:17
  talking
• 8:17
  about
• 8:17
  how
• 8:18
  interesting
• 8:18
  it
• 8:18
  would
• 8:18
  be
• 8:18
  to
• 8:19
  go
• 8:19
  to
• 8:19
  a
• 8:19
  conference
• 8:20
  of
• 8:20
  solipsists
• 8:21
  who
• 8:21
  are
• 8:21
  all
• 8:21
  arguing
• 8:22
  about
• 8:22
  who
• 8:23
  is
• 8:23
  actually
• 8:23
  the
• 8:24
  real
• 8:24
  person
• 8:24
  in
• 8:24
  the
• 8:24
  room.
• 8:26
  Yeah,
• 8:26
  totally.
• 8:27
  Exactly.
• 8:27
  Yeah.
• 8:28
  That's
• 8:28
  the
• 8:28
  total
• 8:28
  number
• 8:28
  of
• 8:28
  minds
• 8:29
  in
• 8:29
  the
• 8:29
  universe.
• 8:30
  Well,
• 8:30
  and
• 8:31
  so,
• 8:32
  you
• 8:32
  know,
• 8:32
  it's.
• 8:33
  And
• 8:33
  that
• 8:33
  was
• 8:33
  one
• 8:34
  of
• 8:34
  the
• 8:34
  breakthroughs
• 8:34
  for
• 8:35
  me.
• 8:36
  I
• 8:36
  always
• 8:37
  thought
• 8:37
  Suzuki's
• 8:38
  book,
• 8:39
  Zen
• 8:39
  Mind,
• 8:39
  Beginner's
• 8:40
  Mind
• 8:41
  was
• 8:41
  about
• 8:42
  the
• 8:43
  thinking,
• 8:43
  the
• 8:44
  brain.
• 8:44
  Right.
• 8:45
  Dr.
• 8:45
  Wu
• 8:45
  would
• 8:46
  always
• 8:46
  say,
• 8:46
  the
• 8:46
  problem
• 8:46
  with
• 8:47
  you
• 8:47
  people
• 8:47
  in
• 8:47
  the
• 8:47
  west
• 8:47
  is
• 8:48
  you
• 8:48
  think
• 8:48
  with
• 8:48
  your
• 8:48
  brain
• 8:48
  and
• 8:49
  not
• 8:49
  your
• 8:49
  mind.
• 8:49
  He
• 8:50
  says,
• 8:50
  pointing
• 8:50
  to
• 8:50
  his
• 8:51
  heart.
• 8:51
  Yeah.
• 8:52
  You
• 8:52
  know,
• 8:52
  and
• 8:53
  this
• 8:53
  idea
• 8:54
  then
• 8:54
  about
• 8:54
  mind,
• 8:55
  or
• 8:55
  in
• 8:55
  Chinese,
• 8:55
  it's
• 8:56
  xing.
• 8:58
  It's
• 8:58
  warm
• 8:59
  and
• 8:59
  it's
• 8:59
  kind.
• 9:00
  It's
• 9:00
  not
• 9:00
  cold,
• 9:02
  but
• 9:02
  it's.
• 9:03
  And
• 9:04
  I've
• 9:04
  told
• 9:04
  this
• 9:04
  story
• 9:04
  before,
• 9:05
  but
• 9:05
  I'll
• 9:05
  be
• 9:05
  very
• 9:05
  quick
• 9:06
  about
• 9:06
  it.
• 9:06
  There
• 9:06
  was
• 9:06
  an
• 9:06
  evangelical
• 9:07
  acquaintance
• 9:07
  who
• 9:08
  came
• 9:08
  to
• 9:08
  me
• 9:08
  and
• 9:08
  said,
• 9:08
  anthony,
• 9:09
  you're
• 9:09
  so
• 9:09
  spiritual.
• 9:10
  How
• 9:10
  can
• 9:10
  you
• 9:10
  be
• 9:10
  so
• 9:11
  spiritual
• 9:11
  and
• 9:11
  not
• 9:11
  be
• 9:12
  Christian?
• 9:12
  And
• 9:13
  I
• 9:13
  said,
• 9:13
  well,
• 9:13
  I
• 9:13
  study
• 9:14
  Buddhism.
• 9:14
  And
• 9:14
  I
• 9:15
  thought
• 9:15
  about.
• 9:15
  He
• 9:15
  wanted
• 9:15
  to
• 9:16
  know
• 9:16
  more.
• 9:16
  And
• 9:16
  so
• 9:16
  I
• 9:17
  thought
• 9:17
  about
• 9:17
  in
• 9:17
  the
• 9:17
  Diamond
• 9:18
  Sutra
• 9:19
  where
• 9:19
  Sabudi
• 9:20
  comes
• 9:20
  to
• 9:21
  the
• 9:21
  Buddha
• 9:21
  and
• 9:22
  oh,
• 9:22
  Lord
• 9:22
  Buddha,
• 9:25
  your
• 9:25
  merit
• 9:26
  is
• 9:26
  greater
• 9:26
  than
• 9:26
  all
• 9:26
  the
• 9:26
  numerous
• 9:27
  grains
• 9:27
  of
• 9:27
  sand
• 9:27
  in
• 9:28
  the
• 9:28
  Ganges.
• 9:28
  And.
• 9:29
  And
• 9:30
  the
• 9:30
  Buddha
• 9:30
  said,
• 9:30
  just
• 9:31
  so
• 9:31
  suphuddhi,
• 9:32
  but
• 9:32
  that's
• 9:32
  only
• 9:32
  a
• 9:32
  way
• 9:32
  of
• 9:33
  talking
• 9:33
  about
• 9:33
  it.
• 9:34
  So
• 9:34
  I
• 9:34
  came
• 9:34
  back
• 9:34
  to
• 9:35
  my
• 9:35
  friend
• 9:36
  or
• 9:36
  my
• 9:36
  acquaintance
• 9:37
  and
• 9:38
  gave
• 9:39
  him
• 9:39
  a
• 9:39
  mind
• 9:39
  worm.
• 9:40
  And
• 9:40
  I
• 9:40
  said,
• 9:40
  if
• 9:40
  you
• 9:40
  can
• 9:40
  think
• 9:41
  of
• 9:41
  it,
• 9:41
  it's
• 9:41
  already
• 9:42
  too
• 9:42
  small.
• 9:44
  And
• 9:44
  he
• 9:46
  wrestled
• 9:47
  with
• 9:47
  that.
• 9:48
  The
• 9:48
  more
• 9:48
  that
• 9:48
  he
• 9:48
  thought
• 9:49
  about
• 9:49
  it,
• 9:49
  the
• 9:49
  more
• 9:49
  that
• 9:50
  he
• 9:50
  was.
• 9:50
  It
• 9:50
  was
• 9:50
  centrifugal.
• 9:51
  It
• 9:51
  threw
• 9:51
  him
• 9:51
  out.
• 9:52
  And
• 9:52
  he
• 9:52
  came
• 9:52
  back
• 9:53
  to
• 9:53
  me
• 9:53
  and
• 9:53
  he
• 9:53
  said
• 9:53
  he
• 9:53
  got
• 9:53
  to
• 9:54
  know
• 9:54
  God
• 9:54
  better
• 9:54
  because
• 9:55
  he
• 9:55
  quit
• 9:55
  trying
• 9:56
  to
• 9:56
  put.
• 9:56
  Got
• 9:56
  into
• 9:56
  a
• 9:57
  thought
• 9:57
  box,
• 9:58
  you
• 9:59
  know.
• 9:59
  And
• 9:59
  I
• 9:59
  guess
• 9:59
  that's,
• 10:00
  you
• 10:00
  know,
• 10:00
  part
• 10:00
  of
• 10:00
  this
• 10:01
  idea
• 10:01
  about
• 10:02
  getting
• 10:02
  rid
• 10:02
  of
• 10:03
  attachment.
• 10:04
  Right.
• 10:05
  And
• 10:06
  isn't
• 10:06
  that
• 10:07
  your
• 10:07
  experience
• 10:07
  with
• 10:07
  your
• 10:08
  clients
• 10:08
  in
• 10:09
  having
• 10:09
  this
• 10:09
  mind
• 10:10
  shift
• 10:11
  that.
• 10:11
  They
• 10:12
  maybe
• 10:13
  a
• 10:13
  tiny,
• 10:13
  tiny
• 10:14
  bit.
• 10:14
  Nothing
• 10:15
  is
• 10:15
  lofty,
• 10:15
  I
• 10:16
  think,
• 10:16
  as
• 10:16
  that.
• 10:16
  But
• 10:16
  I
• 10:17
  think
• 10:17
  to
• 10:17
  your
• 10:17
  point,
• 10:18
  the
• 10:19
  anything,
• 10:20
  any
• 10:22
  state
• 10:22
  or
• 10:24
  concept
• 10:24
  of
• 10:24
  the
• 10:25
  divine
• 10:25
  that
• 10:25
  can
• 10:25
  be
• 10:26
  conceptualized
• 10:27
  in
• 10:27
  and
• 10:27
  of
• 10:27
  itself
• 10:27
  is
• 10:28
  by
• 10:28
  definition
• 10:28
  limited.
• 10:29
  Yep.
• 10:29
  And
• 10:30
  so
• 10:30
  that's
• 10:30
  where
• 10:30
  you
• 10:30
  get
• 10:30
  things
• 10:31
  like
• 10:31
  in
• 10:31
  Zen
• 10:32
  or,
• 10:34
  or
• 10:34
  even
• 10:34
  in
• 10:34
  Daoism.
• 10:35
  Right.
• 10:35
  The
• 10:35
  way
• 10:35
  that
• 10:35
  can
• 10:36
  be
• 10:36
  told
• 10:36
  is
• 10:36
  not
• 10:36
  the
• 10:36
  true
• 10:37
  way.
• 10:37
  The
• 10:37
  Tao
• 10:37
  that
• 10:37
  can
• 10:37
  be
• 10:37
  talked
• 10:38
  about
• 10:38
  is
• 10:38
  not
• 10:38
  the
• 10:38
  true
• 10:38
  Dao.
• 10:38
  Absolutely.
• 10:39
  The
• 10:39
  reason
• 10:40
  for
• 10:40
  that.
• 10:40
  And,
• 10:40
  and
• 10:41
  so
• 10:41
  what
• 10:41
  happens
• 10:41
  is
• 10:42
  we
• 10:42
  have
• 10:42
  it
• 10:42
  a
• 10:42
  lot
• 10:42
  in
• 10:43
  the
• 10:43
  Tibetan
• 10:43
  tradition
• 10:43
  about,
• 10:43
  like
• 10:44
  Zogchen,
• 10:44
  so,
• 10:45
  like
• 10:45
  the
• 10:45
  great,
• 10:45
  great
• 10:46
  perfection
• 10:46
  in
• 10:46
  Mahmoud
• 10:47
  Mudra.
• 10:49
  So
• 10:49
  those
• 10:49
  are
• 10:50
  kind
• 10:50
  of
• 10:50
  analogous
• 10:50
  practices.
• 10:51
  And
• 10:51
  the.
• 10:51
  And
• 10:52
  so
• 10:52
  what
• 10:52
  happens
• 10:53
  though,
• 10:54
  from
• 10:54
  a
• 10:54
  misinterpretation
• 10:55
  perspective
• 10:55
  is
• 10:56
  people
• 10:56
  think
• 10:56
  like,
• 10:57
  oh,
• 10:57
  there,
• 10:58
  I
• 10:58
  can't
• 10:59
  talk
• 10:59
  about
• 10:59
  it.
• 10:59
  Therefore,
• 11:00
  if
• 11:01
  I
• 11:01
  just
• 11:01
  sit
• 11:01
  and
• 11:01
  not
• 11:02
  think,
• 11:03
  then
• 11:03
  that's
• 11:03
  the
• 11:04
  state
• 11:04
  that
• 11:04
  it
• 11:04
  is.
• 11:05
  And
• 11:05
  that's
• 11:05
  not.
• 11:05
  That's
• 11:05
  not
• 11:05
  the
• 11:06
  case.
• 11:06
  Right.
• 11:06
  And
• 11:06
  so
• 11:07
  they
• 11:07
  go
• 11:07
  more
• 11:07
  toward
• 11:08
  like,
• 11:08
  what
• 11:08
  I
• 11:08
  would
• 11:08
  consider
• 11:08
  a
• 11:09
  state
• 11:09
  of
• 11:09
  ignorance
• 11:09
  as
• 11:10
  opposed
• 11:10
  to,
• 11:10
  like
• 11:10
  a
• 11:10
  state
• 11:10
  of
• 11:11
  liveliness.
• 11:11
  And
• 11:11
  so
• 11:13
  the
• 11:13
  rhetoric
• 11:13
  of
• 11:13
  non
• 11:14
  attachment
• 11:14
  is
• 11:15
  really
• 11:15
  about
• 11:15
  allowing
• 11:16
  the
• 11:16
  unfoldment
• 11:17
  of
• 11:17
  the
• 11:17
  present
• 11:17
  moment
• 11:18
  while
• 11:18
  you're
• 11:18
  still
• 11:19
  being
• 11:19
  aware
• 11:19
  of
• 11:19
  it
• 11:20
  in
• 11:20
  a
• 11:20
  non
• 11:20
  Conceptual
• 11:21
  way.
• 11:22
  Yeah,
• 11:23
  yeah,
• 11:23
  yeah.
• 11:24
  On
• 11:24
  that
• 11:24
  note,
• 11:25
  it
• 11:25
  reminds
• 11:25
  me
• 11:25
  of
• 11:25
  another
• 11:26
  saying
• 11:26
  from
• 11:27
  Dr.
• 11:27
  Woods.
• 11:27
  He
• 11:28
  named
• 11:29
  maybe
• 11:30
  six
• 11:30
  or
• 11:30
  seven
• 11:30
  different
• 11:31
  types
• 11:31
  of
• 11:32
  challenges
• 11:32
  in
• 11:33
  Zen.
• 11:33
  The
• 11:34
  one
• 11:34
  you
• 11:34
  were
• 11:34
  describing,
• 11:34
  trying
• 11:35
  not
• 11:35
  to
• 11:35
  think
• 11:35
  at
• 11:35
  all
• 11:35
  was
• 11:35
  called.
• 11:36
  He
• 11:36
  called
• 11:36
  it
• 11:36
  Deadwood
• 11:37
  Zen.
• 11:39
  Like
• 11:39
  a
• 11:40
  log.
• 11:41
  Another
• 11:41
  thought
• 11:42
  that
• 11:42
  comes
• 11:42
  to
• 11:42
  me
• 11:42
  as
• 11:42
  we're
• 11:43
  speaking
• 11:43
  here,
• 11:43
  and
• 11:44
  we
• 11:44
  veered
• 11:44
  into
• 11:45
  physics
• 11:45
  a
• 11:45
  little
• 11:45
  bit.
• 11:46
  I
• 11:46
  did
• 11:46
  mention
• 11:47
  before
• 11:47
  on
• 11:47
  the
• 11:47
  show,
• 11:47
  and
• 11:48
  I
• 11:48
  didn't
• 11:48
  ever
• 11:48
  dive
• 11:49
  too
• 11:49
  deep
• 11:49
  into
• 11:49
  this
• 11:49
  book,
• 11:50
  but
• 11:50
  it's
• 11:50
  called
• 11:50
  the
• 11:50
  transcendent
• 11:51
  unity
• 11:51
  of
• 11:52
  religion.
• 11:53
  Frith
• 11:53
  Josh
• 11:54
  Schuen.
• 11:55
  And
• 11:55
  it
• 11:55
  just.
• 11:56
  What
• 11:56
  you're
• 11:56
  describing
• 11:56
  here,
• 11:57
  I
• 11:57
  also
• 11:57
  feel
• 11:57
  that
• 11:58
  transcendent
• 11:58
  unity
• 11:59
  of
• 11:59
  all
• 11:59
  fields.
• 12:00
  So
• 12:00
  we
• 12:00
  have
• 12:01
  physics
• 12:01
  now,
• 12:01
  or
• 12:02
  the
• 12:02
  transcendent
• 12:03
  unity
• 12:03
  of
• 12:03
  all
• 12:03
  cultures,
• 12:04
  that
• 12:04
  when
• 12:04
  you
• 12:05
  understand
• 12:05
  and
• 12:06
  work
• 12:06
  and
• 12:06
  practice
• 12:07
  and
• 12:08
  develop
• 12:09
  this
• 12:09
  insight
• 12:09
  at
• 12:10
  the
• 12:10
  highest
• 12:10
  level,
• 12:11
  it's
• 12:11
  all
• 12:11
  a
• 12:11
  unified
• 12:13
  experience.
• 12:14
  You
• 12:14
  can
• 12:14
  name
• 12:14
  it
• 12:14
  different
• 12:15
  things,
• 12:15
  God
• 12:17
  Dao,
• 12:18
  but
• 12:18
  it's
• 12:18
  a
• 12:19
  unified,
• 12:19
  inexplicable
• 12:20
  experience.
• 12:22
  And
• 12:22
  we
• 12:22
  see
• 12:22
  now
• 12:23
  that
• 12:23
  Western
• 12:23
  science
• 12:24
  is
• 12:24
  finding
• 12:25
  it
• 12:25
  through
• 12:25
  physics.
• 12:26
  Can
• 12:27
  you
• 12:27
  speak
• 12:27
  to
• 12:28
  again
• 12:28
  the
• 12:28
  Western
• 12:29
  journey
• 12:29
  of
• 12:30
  knowledge
• 12:30
  and
• 12:30
  understanding
• 12:31
  and
• 12:33
  where.
• 12:33
  Where
• 12:34
  you
• 12:34
  see
• 12:35
  us
• 12:35
  and
• 12:35
  where
• 12:35
  we've
• 12:36
  been
• 12:36
  and
• 12:36
  where
• 12:36
  we're
• 12:36
  going?
• 12:36
  Maybe,
• 12:37
  yeah,
• 12:38
  no,
• 12:38
  happy
• 12:38
  to
• 12:39
  talk
• 12:39
  about
• 12:39
  it.
• 12:39
  First,
• 12:39
  just
• 12:39
  a
• 12:40
  word
• 12:40
  about,
• 12:40
  like,
• 12:40
  the
• 12:41
  dead
• 12:41
  woods.
• 12:41
  And
• 12:42
  that's
• 12:42
  a
• 12:42
  real.
• 12:44
  Any
• 12:44
  serious
• 12:45
  meditator
• 12:45
  or
• 12:45
  serious
• 12:46
  practitioner
• 12:46
  will
• 12:47
  experience
• 12:47
  versions
• 12:48
  of
• 12:48
  that
• 12:48
  for.
• 12:49
  At
• 12:49
  some
• 12:49
  point.
• 12:49
  And
• 12:49
  it
• 12:50
  can
• 12:50
  last
• 12:50
  for
• 12:50
  years
• 12:50
  and
• 12:51
  years.
• 12:51
  I
• 12:51
  myself
• 12:52
  was
• 12:52
  in
• 12:52
  a
• 12:52
  state
• 12:53
  when
• 12:53
  I
• 12:53
  was
• 12:54
  meditating,
• 12:54
  particularly
• 12:54
  in
• 12:54
  Zen
• 12:55
  a
• 12:55
  lot.
• 12:55
  You
• 12:56
  get
• 12:56
  into
• 12:56
  a
• 12:57
  state
• 12:57
  that's
• 12:57
  very,
• 12:58
  very
• 12:58
  restful
• 12:58
  and
• 12:59
  very.
• 12:59
  Time
• 12:59
  passes
• 13:00
  very
• 13:00
  fast.
• 13:00
  And
• 13:01
  so
• 13:01
  you
• 13:01
  start
• 13:01
  to
• 13:01
  think
• 13:01
  like
• 13:01
  you're
• 13:02
  gaining
• 13:02
  experience
• 13:03
  and
• 13:03
  skills.
• 13:04
  But
• 13:05
  really
• 13:05
  what
• 13:05
  it
• 13:05
  is
• 13:06
  is
• 13:06
  it's
• 13:06
  a.
• 13:06
  In
• 13:07
  Tibetan,
• 13:07
  we
• 13:07
  call
• 13:07
  it
• 13:07
  like
• 13:08
  resting
• 13:08
  in
• 13:08
  the
• 13:08
  nature
• 13:08
  of
• 13:08
  ignorance.
• 13:09
  It's
• 13:09
  like,
• 13:10
  oh,
• 13:10
  yeah,
• 13:10
  you're
• 13:11
  resting
• 13:11
  in
• 13:11
  a
• 13:12
  state
• 13:12
  of
• 13:12
  consciousness
• 13:13
  that's
• 13:13
  not
• 13:13
  as
• 13:13
  alive
• 13:14
  and
• 13:14
  aware.
• 13:14
  And
• 13:15
  so
• 13:15
  it
• 13:15
  feels
• 13:15
  almost
• 13:15
  like
• 13:16
  a
• 13:16
  deep
• 13:17
  sleep
• 13:17
  and
• 13:17
  a
• 13:17
  rest,
• 13:17
  which
• 13:18
  is
• 13:18
  fine,
• 13:18
  but
• 13:19
  it's
• 13:19
  not.
• 13:19
  It's
• 13:19
  actually
• 13:19
  counterproductive
• 13:20
  to
• 13:21
  real
• 13:22
  spiritual
• 13:22
  practice.
• 13:22
  And
• 13:22
  you
• 13:23
  have
• 13:23
  to
• 13:23
  get
• 13:23
  through
• 13:23
  that.
• 13:24
  And
• 13:24
  that's
• 13:24
  one
• 13:24
  of
• 13:24
  the
• 13:25
  reasons
• 13:25
  why
• 13:25
  it's
• 13:25
  so
• 13:25
  important
• 13:25
  to
• 13:26
  have
• 13:26
  a
• 13:26
  clear
• 13:27
  teacher
• 13:27
  that
• 13:27
  can
• 13:27
  be
• 13:27
  like,
• 13:28
  oh,
• 13:28
  you're
• 13:29
  in
• 13:29
  that
• 13:29
  state.
• 13:29
  Here's
• 13:30
  how
• 13:30
  you
• 13:30
  get
• 13:30
  out.
• 13:30
  Here's
• 13:30
  the
• 13:31
  antidote
• 13:31
  to
• 13:31
  that.
• 13:33
  And
• 13:33
  then
• 13:33
  to
• 13:34
  your
• 13:34
  point
• 13:34
  about,
• 13:35
  like,
• 13:36
  the
• 13:36
  unified
• 13:36
  theory
• 13:37
  of
• 13:37
  everything.
• 13:38
  And
• 13:38
  then
• 13:38
  you're
• 13:39
  sort
• 13:39
  of
• 13:39
  saying
• 13:39
  like
• 13:39
  the.
• 13:41
  It
• 13:41
  goes
• 13:42
  by
• 13:42
  different
• 13:42
  names
• 13:42
  in
• 13:43
  different
• 13:43
  religions.
• 13:44
  I
• 13:45
  used
• 13:45
  to
• 13:45
  not
• 13:46
  like
• 13:46
  this
• 13:46
  perspective,
• 13:47
  but
• 13:47
  I've
• 13:47
  come
• 13:47
  to
• 13:48
  really
• 13:48
  adopt
• 13:48
  it
• 13:49
  as
• 13:49
  I
• 13:49
  get
• 13:49
  older.
• 13:50
  Oh,
• 13:50
  I
• 13:51
  do
• 13:51
  think
• 13:51
  that
• 13:52
  Unitarian.
• 13:53
  Yeah.
• 13:54
  Totally
• 13:55
  given
• 13:55
  you
• 13:55
  stuff.
• 13:56
  Exactly.
• 13:57
  That's
• 13:57
  exactly
• 13:57
  right.
• 13:57
  Like,
• 13:58
  I
• 13:58
  do
• 13:58
  think
• 13:59
  that
• 13:59
  in
• 14:00
  many
• 14:00
  ways,
• 14:00
  each
• 14:01
  religion
• 14:01
  is
• 14:01
  actually
• 14:02
  just
• 14:02
  a
• 14:02
  delivery
• 14:03
  system
• 14:03
  for
• 14:04
  a
• 14:04
  mystical
• 14:05
  truth,
• 14:05
  which
• 14:05
  is
• 14:06
  the
• 14:06
  same
• 14:06
  thing.
• 14:07
  Like
• 14:07
  Zogen,
• 14:08
  Mahamudra,
• 14:09
  Zen,
• 14:09
  you
• 14:10
  know,
• 14:10
  high
• 14:10
  level
• 14:10
  Daoism,
• 14:11
  certainly
• 14:11
  like
• 14:12
  elements
• 14:12
  of
• 14:13
  other
• 14:13
  Dharma
• 14:13
  practices
• 14:14
  in
• 14:14
  India.
• 14:15
  I
• 14:15
  would
• 14:15
  even
• 14:15
  go
• 14:15
  so
• 14:15
  far
• 14:15
  as
• 14:15
  to
• 14:16
  say,
• 14:16
  like
• 14:17
  some
• 14:18
  of
• 14:18
  the
• 14:18
  orthodox
• 14:18
  priests
• 14:19
  that
• 14:19
  I've
• 14:19
  talked
• 14:19
  to,
• 14:19
  they
• 14:20
  have
• 14:20
  a
• 14:20
  really
• 14:20
  good
• 14:20
  sense
• 14:20
  of
• 14:21
  like
• 14:21
  the
• 14:21
  divine
• 14:22
  as
• 14:22
  beyond
• 14:22
  the
• 14:23
  realm
• 14:23
  of
• 14:23
  thought.
• 14:23
  And
• 14:24
  so
• 14:24
  they're
• 14:24
  really
• 14:24
  solid
• 14:25
  philosophers
• 14:25
  on
• 14:26
  top
• 14:26
  of,
• 14:26
  like,
• 14:26
  practitioners.
• 14:27
  Right.
• 14:27
  So
• 14:27
  it's
• 14:28
  in
• 14:28
  Christianity
• 14:28
  as
• 14:28
  well,
• 14:29
  Sufism.
• 14:31
  So
• 14:31
  I
• 14:31
  do
• 14:31
  think
• 14:31
  there's
• 14:32
  that.
• 14:32
  And
• 14:32
  I
• 14:33
  think
• 14:33
  that
• 14:33
  along
• 14:33
  with
• 14:34
  that,
• 14:34
  it's
• 14:34
  the
• 14:34
  delivery
• 14:35
  system
• 14:35
  of
• 14:35
  ethics
• 14:36
  and
• 14:36
  also
• 14:36
  community
• 14:37
  and
• 14:37
  all
• 14:37
  that.
• 14:37
  But
• 14:37
  at
• 14:37
  its
• 14:38
  heart,
• 14:38
  it's
• 14:38
  this
• 14:38
  other
• 14:39
  mystical
• 14:39
  thing.
• 14:41
  And
• 14:42
  unfortunately,
• 14:43
  it
• 14:43
  doesn't
• 14:44
  get.
• 14:45
  It's,
• 14:45
  to
• 14:45
  greater
• 14:46
  or
• 14:46
  lesser
• 14:46
  degrees,
• 14:47
  front
• 14:47
  and
• 14:47
  center
• 14:47
  within
• 14:48
  traditions.
• 14:49
  Right.
• 14:49
  Like
• 14:49
  in
• 14:49
  Zen,
• 14:50
  it's
• 14:50
  like
• 14:50
  the
• 14:50
  only
• 14:50
  thing.
• 14:51
  In
• 14:51
  Zogen,
• 14:51
  it's
• 14:52
  like,
• 14:52
  that's
• 14:52
  the
• 14:52
  main
• 14:52
  thing.
• 14:53
  But
• 14:53
  if
• 14:53
  you
• 14:53
  go
• 14:53
  to,
• 14:53
  like,
• 14:53
  different,
• 14:54
  even
• 14:54
  Buddhist
• 14:54
  traditions,
• 14:55
  it's
• 14:55
  like,
• 14:55
  yeah,
• 14:55
  that's.
• 14:56
  We
• 14:56
  know
• 14:56
  that
• 14:56
  and
• 14:57
  we
• 14:57
  can
• 14:57
  talk
• 14:57
  about
• 14:57
  that,
• 14:57
  but
• 14:57
  that's
• 14:58
  not
• 14:58
  the
• 14:58
  main
• 14:58
  thing.
• 14:59
  And
• 14:59
  so
• 14:59
  it's
• 14:59
  like,
• 14:59
  how
• 15:00
  direct
• 15:00
  do
• 15:00
  you
• 15:00
  want
• 15:01
  it?
• 15:01
  You
• 15:01
  know?
• 15:03
  And
• 15:03
  the
• 15:03
  reason
• 15:04
  I
• 15:04
  think
• 15:04
  the
• 15:04
  west
• 15:05
  is
• 15:05
  starting
• 15:05
  to
• 15:05
  get
• 15:06
  through
• 15:06
  it,
• 15:06
  through
• 15:06
  science
• 15:06
  is
• 15:06
  because.
• 15:07
  Because
• 15:07
  the
• 15:07
  west
• 15:07
  focuses
• 15:08
  on
• 15:09
  external
• 15:09
  versus
• 15:10
  internal.
• 15:10
  Like
• 15:10
  in
• 15:11
  the
• 15:11
  east
• 15:11
  before
• 15:12
  William
• 15:13
  James
• 15:13
  was
• 15:13
  actually
• 15:14
  big
• 15:14
  on
• 15:14
  it.
• 15:14
  Like
• 15:15
  one
• 15:15
  of
• 15:15
  the
• 15:15
  early,
• 15:15
  early
• 15:16
  forefathers
• 15:16
  of
• 15:16
  psychology,
• 15:17
  he
• 15:17
  was
• 15:17
  talking
• 15:18
  about,
• 15:18
  like,
• 15:18
  felt,
• 15:18
  lived
• 15:19
  experience
• 15:19
  is
• 15:19
  as
• 15:20
  valuable
• 15:20
  as
• 15:22
  an
• 15:22
  experimental
• 15:23
  place
• 15:23
  as
• 15:23
  it
• 15:24
  is
• 15:24
  externals.
• 15:25
  And
• 15:25
  so
• 15:25
  what
• 15:25
  happened
• 15:25
  was
• 15:25
  that
• 15:26
  that
• 15:26
  shifted
• 15:26
  to
• 15:27
  only
• 15:27
  externals
• 15:28
  after
• 15:28
  him.
• 15:28
  And
• 15:29
  so
• 15:29
  we
• 15:29
  became
• 15:29
  very
• 15:30
  focused,
• 15:30
  almost
• 15:31
  fixated
• 15:31
  on
• 15:31
  like,
• 15:31
  the
• 15:31
  nature
• 15:32
  of
• 15:32
  reality
• 15:32
  from
• 15:32
  the
• 15:33
  external
• 15:33
  perspective.
• 15:34
  Perfect
• 15:34
  sense
• 15:35
  that
• 15:35
  we're
• 15:35
  now
• 15:35
  coming
• 15:36
  back
• 15:36
  around
• 15:36
  to
• 15:37
  what
• 15:37
  has
• 15:37
  been
• 15:38
  there
• 15:38
  the
• 15:38
  entire
• 15:38
  time
• 15:38
  from
• 15:39
  an
• 15:39
  internal
• 15:39
  perspective
• 15:40
  that
• 15:40
  we've
• 15:40
  known
• 15:40
  about
• 15:40
  in
• 15:41
  the
• 15:41
  contemplative
• 15:42
  traditions.
• 15:42
  Not
• 15:42
  just
• 15:43
  in
• 15:43
  east,
• 15:43
  but
• 15:43
  in
• 15:43
  all
• 15:44
  the
• 15:44
  contemplative
• 15:44
  traditions.
• 15:45
  So
• 15:47
  to
• 15:47
  get
• 15:47
  to
• 15:48
  your
• 15:48
  question,
• 15:48
  Adam,
• 15:48
  like,
• 15:48
  what
• 15:49
  do
• 15:49
  I
• 15:49
  see?
• 15:49
  I
• 15:49
  see
• 15:51
  eventually
• 15:52
  the
• 15:52
  West,
• 15:52
  I
• 15:53
  think
• 15:53
  science
• 15:53
  will
• 15:53
  come
• 15:54
  to
• 15:54
  it.
• 15:54
  Like,
• 15:54
  actually
• 15:55
  what
• 15:55
  the
• 15:55
  world
• 15:56
  is,
• 15:56
  is
• 15:57
  the
• 15:57
  union
• 15:57
  of
• 15:58
  consciousness
• 15:58
  and
• 15:58
  energy.
• 15:59
  Like,
• 15:59
  that's
• 15:59
  just
• 15:59
  what
• 16:00
  it
• 16:00
  is.
• 16:00
  Right?
• 16:00
  And
• 16:00
  then
• 16:01
  that'll
• 16:01
  allow
• 16:01
  us
• 16:01
  to
• 16:01
  do
• 16:02
  all
• 16:02
  kinds
• 16:02
  of
• 16:02
  cool
• 16:02
  scientific,
• 16:03
  amazing
• 16:04
  stuff,
• 16:04
  technology
• 16:04
  stuff.
• 16:05
  It
• 16:05
  probably
• 16:06
  will
• 16:06
  continue
• 16:06
  to.
• 16:07
  And
• 16:08
  it
• 16:09
  doesn't
• 16:09
  matter
• 16:09
  how
• 16:09
  well
• 16:10
  you
• 16:10
  intellectually
• 16:11
  understand
• 16:11
  that.
• 16:11
  You
• 16:12
  still
• 16:12
  don't
• 16:12
  get
• 16:13
  it
• 16:13
  unless
• 16:13
  you
• 16:13
  experience
• 16:14
  it
• 16:14
  from
• 16:14
  a
• 16:14
  felt
• 16:15
  sense.
• 16:15
  And
• 16:15
  the
• 16:16
  only
• 16:16
  way
• 16:16
  to
• 16:16
  do
• 16:16
  that
• 16:16
  is
• 16:17
  through
• 16:17
  some
• 16:17
  of
• 16:17
  these
• 16:17
  practices
• 16:17
  we've
• 16:18
  been
• 16:18
  talking
• 16:18
  about.
• 16:18
  Yep.
• 16:19
  And
• 16:19
  there
• 16:19
  was
• 16:19
  a
• 16:20
  guy
• 16:21
  I
• 16:21
  was
• 16:22
  a
• 16:22
  recording
• 16:22
  engineer
• 16:22
  for
• 16:23
  John
• 16:23
  Wellwood,
• 16:23
  and
• 16:24
  he
• 16:24
  worked
• 16:24
  with
• 16:25
  Trungpa,
• 16:26
  and
• 16:26
  a
• 16:26
  guy
• 16:26
  named
• 16:26
  Eugene
• 16:27
  Gendlin
• 16:27
  who
• 16:27
  talked
• 16:28
  about
• 16:28
  the
• 16:28
  felt
• 16:28
  sense.
• 16:29
  Well,
• 16:29
  I
• 16:30
  feel
• 16:30
  like
• 16:30
  we
• 16:30
  have
• 16:30
  to
• 16:30
  take
• 16:31
  a
• 16:31
  short
• 16:31
  break.
• 16:31
  I'm
• 16:31
  Anthony
• 16:32
  Wright
• 16:32
  and
• 16:32
  I
• 16:33
  am
• 16:33
  your
• 16:33
  co
• 16:33
  host
• 16:33
  with
• 16:34
  Adam,
• 16:35
  Adam
• 16:35
  Dietz.
• 16:36
  And
• 16:36
  you
• 16:36
  can
• 16:36
  contact
• 16:36
  me
• 16:37
  at
• 16:37
  theonaut.com
• 16:38
  T-H
• 16:39
  E
• 16:39
  O
• 16:39
  N
• 16:39
  A
• 16:40
  U
• 16:40
  T.
• 16:40
  And
• 16:40
  Adam
• 16:42
  dietzadammail.com
• 16:43
  D
• 16:43
  I
• 16:43
  E
• 16:44
  T
• 16:44
  Z
• 16:44
  Adam
• 16:45
  and
• 16:45
  the
• 16:45
  way
• 16:46
  between
• 16:46
  Substack
• 16:47
  and
• 16:47
  Nick.
• 16:47
  How
• 16:48
  can
• 16:48
  people
• 16:48
  contact
• 16:48
  you?
• 16:50
  Nickeganphd.com
• 16:52
  or
• 16:52
  you
• 16:52
  can
• 16:52
  go
• 16:53
  to
• 16:53
  my
• 16:53
  leadership
• 16:54
  website,
• 16:54
  which
• 16:54
  is
• 16:54
  shiftleadership.group.
• 16:56
  great.
• 16:56
  All
• 16:57
  right,
• 16:57
  we'll
• 16:57
  be
• 16:57
  right
• 16:57
  back,
• 16:58
  so
• 16:58
  stay
• 16:58
  tuned.