Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / Cold Calling and Mindset Shifts | EP09 | Jack Frimston

Transcript

Cold Calling and Mindset Shifts | EP09 | Jack Frimston · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

• 0:00
  Welcome to the podcast. Here's a sneak peek of
• 0:02
  what's coming up in today's episode. Did you used to be crap
• 0:05
  at sales? Yes. How crap were we talking? Awful, really, really,
• 0:09
  really bad. If I rewind to like, the first sales job, I thought
• 0:15
  selling was being Del boy from only fools and horses. I really
• 0:19
  thought the gift of the gab was selling, but I was really good
• 0:25
  at booking appointments. You were the top Booker. I was the
• 0:27
  top Booker, but nothing ever closed, nothing ever closed,
• 0:31
  except maybe one deal, apart from one at the back end. Maybe
• 0:34
  my whole career, up until a few years ago, was was music, but
• 0:39
  sales pays the bills. And I thought, like, this boy bands
• 0:41
  gonna take off. We're gonna be the next big thing. Move over.
• 0:45
  JLS, we're in town. We're taking over. I was like, just do this
• 0:49
  until it takes on. I remember, like, being on the phone, but
• 0:52
  then I'm like, my head is somewhere else. I'm like,
• 0:56
  dreaming about, oh, what would it be like to play the O2 arena?
• 0:58
  You really, honestly, when we sort of spoke about Reed before
• 1:01
  off camera. You said that you got promoted too quickly. And
• 1:06
  the only person in Reed, don't mean to laugh, but the only
• 1:08
  person in Reed's history to get demoted. What the hell happened
• 1:13
  A lot of salespeople, like, especially when we think about
• 1:13
  there?
• 1:18
  like, SDRs, AES, a lot of them are like 20 to 30. And within
• 1:23
  20/30 there's that question mark of, like, what is my life? What
• 1:28
  am I doing? Where am I going to be? I'm probably like, 25/26 I'm
• 1:32
  like, this isn't the path that I thought I'd be on. I'm just
• 1:35
  working like a cruddy sales job. What's the point? I saw a
• 1:39
  picture of you and Chris Voss, and I thought that was just some
• 1:41
  weird post. That's bullshit. There's no way you sat with
• 1:44
  Chris Voss for an hour. He charges like 10 grand an hour.
• 1:47
  Be a cheeky Northerner. You'll get it for free, right? Let's
• 1:50
  hear that story. What happened?
• 1:56
  mark ackers: Hello and welcome to another episode of The I used
• 1:59
  to be crap at sales Podcast. I'm Mark Ackers, your host, co
• 2:02
  founder and Head of Sales here at my sales coach, and today in
• 2:05
  the big orange chair, I'm joined by the Director of Sales
• 2:08
  consultancy, co director and head of sales at WAM. That's we
• 2:12
  have a meeting at a time of recording 24,000 LinkedIn
• 2:16
  followers, a man obsessed with cold calling and death, and
• 2:20
  that's just all LinkedIn says they've also worked in an Amazon
• 2:25
  warehouse on a cruise ship. They sold recruitment services Ivas
• 2:30
  and every type of insurance you can think of, from commercial to
• 2:34
  life, even Sky remote control insurance up and you spend time
• 2:38
  trying to make it in a boy band full time. You probably worked
• 2:42
  out when I said, wham, we have a we have a meeting. But in case
• 2:46
  you didn't, today's guest is Jack frimston. Jack big, welcome
• 2:50
  to the podcast and the orange chairs. Thank you for having me.
• 2:52
  That was lovely. What you said it was like flashing back all
• 2:56
  those awful memories. What was the most awful memory at
• 2:59
  flashback the Amazon warehouse was was very, very bad. That was
• 3:05
  like during covid. I thought, You know what? It can't be that
• 3:07
  bad. I'll just get to make sure, like, pocket money. Yeah, it was
• 3:11
  awful. I feel like I could just talk to you for an hour about
• 3:14
  how the intricacies of Amazon works, but we won't do that.
• 3:18
  That wouldn't make for a good podcast up there on my brain.
• 3:22
  Um, let's kick it off with a yes. No question, did you used
• 3:26
  to be crap at sales? Yes.
• 3:29
  Jack Frimston: How crap are we talking awful, really, really,
• 3:34
  really bad. I'd even go as far to say as, like, it's only it's
• 3:39
  such like an egotistical thing to say, like, I'm good at sales
• 3:42
  now, but obviously, like, I like to think that I'm all right at
• 3:45
  selling, and I've got a bit of an understanding. But if I
• 3:48
  rewind to, like, the first sales job, I thought selling was being
• 3:54
  delboy from Only Fools and Horses. I thought, I really
• 3:57
  thought the gift of the gab was selling, which, as you get older
• 4:02
  in life and wiser, you realize it's the total opposite.
• 4:07
  mark ackers: So that's a great place to start. We've got you in
• 4:10
  the chair. You actually left your house at six o'clock this
• 4:13
  morning to drive up to our studio in Newcastle to talk
• 4:17
  about being crap in sales. What made you want to do that? I
• 4:20
  think it's I obviously, we employ a lot of young people
• 4:24
  that are new to sales, and I talk a lot about it on LinkedIn,
• 4:27
  but I think it's like, it's good to know that, like, if you're
• 4:31
  struggling right now, or especially if you're at a point
• 4:34
  in your life where you're like, What am I doing? Like, let's
• 4:37
  face it, most people that are in sales fall into sales. They have
• 4:42
  a dream outside of sales. They have something else that they
• 4:44
  want to pursue. My whole career, up until a few years ago, was,
• 4:49
  was music, but sales pays the bills. So I was like, right?
• 4:52
  I'll do that nine to five. Sick, it's five o'clock. I'm off. I'm
• 4:55
  gonna go and play guitar somewhere. But it's like, it's
• 4:58
  knowing that like other.
• 5:00
  Jack Frimston: People have walked that it's okay to feel a
• 5:01
  little bit lost in the sales world, and actually, if it is
• 5:05
  something that you get better at, like, everybody works in
• 5:09
  sales, like even if you don't work in sales, being a better
• 5:12
  listener, being a better communicator, asking better
• 5:15
  questions, having a stronger mindset, you're going to be
• 5:18
  better in whatever walk of life you go into. You're going to be
• 5:20
  a better parent, you're going to be a better partner, a better
• 5:23
  friend, all of those things. So even if you work in sales now
• 5:26
  and you're just thinking, like, I'm a bit lost, like I wanted to
• 5:29
  come on and like, I respect what you guys do, but come and people
• 5:32
  are listening to this go, oh god, yeah, I felt like where you
• 5:35
  were six years ago. It might be alright. You might end up
• 5:39
  wearing all black in Newcastle at nine in the morning.
• 5:43
  mark ackers: So let's talk about what you just said. And so much
• 5:45
  of that resonated, and I've spoke about that before as well.
• 5:48
  Like, if you can pick up those sales skills and fine tune them,
• 5:50
  you can have better conversations with everybody.
• 5:53
  But let's talk about what you said about falling into sales so
• 5:56
  your first sales job, you've put yourself as 1617,
• 6:00
  Jack Frimston: appointment booking. Tell me how you got
• 6:03
  that first job, and if it was a conscious choice to take a sales
• 6:06
  job, it it was so it's so funny, because obviously what I do now
• 6:11
  is appointment booking, and my first ever sales job was doing
• 6:14
  the exact same, different kind of different thing, but like,
• 6:18
  it's funny how it's come full circle 16 years later. I it was
• 6:23
  year 10, so I was 1516, years old, and my best friend ramen.
• 6:29
  He was doing work experience where he didn't get paid. Two
• 6:32
  weeks, I went to a primary school. I was like, maybe I'll
• 6:34
  be a teacher. I don't know what I want to do. So I went to a
• 6:36
  primary school. He went to he found a publishing company that
• 6:40
  was in our hometown of lithium, and he turned up, and it wasn't
• 6:43
  a publishing company, it was a call center selling advertising
• 6:47
  space. So he did that for two weeks, and he was good, like on
• 6:51
  the phones, like he was as good as a 16 year old can be cold
• 6:54
  calling. And he said, I've got this like thing. They've said,
• 6:57
  Do you want to stay on for the summer? Another friend went and
• 7:00
  joined, and then they said, Well, do you want they went, who
• 7:02
  else do you know? And I was knocking about with him, and he
• 7:04
  was like, why don't you just come in and do this? And I
• 7:07
  turned up, and I remember, like, the first day they give you a
• 7:10
  piece of paper. We're talking 2007
• 7:13
  sometime like the the computers, like at the Internet wasn't
• 7:17
  massive. There was a yellow pages for Wolverhampton. They
• 7:19
  were like, right? You're booking meetings in Wolverhampton. Start
• 7:22
  at the front or the back. There's your script. Good luck
• 7:25
  going gone book some appointments for Ben Jones,
• 7:28
  who's like out in Wolverhampton and he wants to go and sell some
• 7:32
  advertising space.
• 7:34
  Wow. So was you getting paid for that job? Yeah, I think looking
• 7:39
  back, it worked out was on about two pound an hour
• 7:42
  commission. There was commission. So, so I didn't earn
• 7:48
  any commission the first year, and I think the back end of the
• 7:52
  second year, I one deal close for like a grand, and I got like
• 7:55
  5% of something. But I was really good at booking
• 8:01
  appointment, but you know, you were the top Booker. I was the
• 8:03
  top Booker, but nothing ever closed, nothing ever closed,
• 8:07
  except maybe one deal, apart from one at the back end. Maybe,
• 8:10
  maybe that's like a self serving memory that I've added in there
• 8:13
  to make me not feel as bad as about being crap at sales. But
• 8:17
  the first day, everyone was, like, buzzing about me. They
• 8:20
  were like, you're going to be so good, you're going to be so
• 8:22
  good. But, like, I thought rapport was the way forward. If
• 8:25
  you can be their friend, they're going to, like, buy from you.
• 8:28
  And I used to say things like, oh, we'll just come down and
• 8:31
  we'll have a couple, we'll bring some jammy Dodgers, and we'll
• 8:33
  just turn up. Like, it was very, like, pushy, needy, no. Problem
• 8:38
  wasn't solving anything. It was just like, let's just come down
• 8:42
  and like, oh, Ben's a lovely lad. He just wants to meet you.
• 8:45
  It was very much. And people would turn up and they'd be
• 8:47
  like, the decision makers aren't here. I'm just the tea lady.
• 8:50
  Well, she probably need the jammy Dodgers. Yeah, exactly.
• 8:53
  They never took jammy Dodgers. I always got in trouble
• 8:56
  for that. So what made you the top Booker? Then if you say you
• 8:59
  were crap, what made you the top Booker, because I was booking
• 9:01
  appointments with people that weren't decision makers, right?
• 9:04
  I was, I was just shoving anything through. I'd ring you
• 9:07
  and you go, like, yeah, maybe like, send me an email. Cool,
• 9:10
  Tuesday at three, yeah, or whatever. Your counterfeit. No.
• 9:13
  Okay, counterfeit, yes, it is right. Just take that and I'd be
• 9:17
  like, sick, another one. Obviously, nothing was recorded.
• 9:20
  What I said happened on the phone was like, and I go away,
• 9:24
  and I Oh, they've got this massive budget for a perimeter
• 9:27
  board, and I'd paint a picture, right? So top Booker may be the
• 9:31
  wrong metric to be measuring, but the one that makes you look
• 9:33
  the best. Yeah, exactly right. Okay. And then you had a uni job
• 9:39
  selling Ivas. So again, cold calling, but this time the
• 9:42
  public asking their sort of, you know, 10,000 pounds in debt, was
• 9:47
  that a smile and dial job, or was there a strategy there that
• 9:51
  that was, here's, I don't even know how they got away with it,
• 9:53
  but they were like, here's members of the random public.
• 9:56
  There's no intent. Ring people up and say, I'm calling from.
• 10:00
  IVA company, do you have 10 grand worth of debt? And it was
• 10:03
  probably one of the lowest points of my life, like you.
• 10:07
  Just imagine calling someone up and saying, are you in debt? If
• 10:10
  you're not in debt, you're going to be pissed off. If you are in
• 10:13
  debt, you're probably going to be pissed off. So was it the
• 10:16
  lowest point, one of the lowest points in your life or your
• 10:19
  career? Because that's different.
• 10:22
  I just remember, like, it was while I was at university this
• 10:25
  summer as well. And like, obviously, like, I was going out
• 10:28
  and I was still partying and waking up hungover, and I think
• 10:31
  the hours were something like 10 to eight, and just like,
• 10:35
  strolling into this office, and like, all the management were
• 10:40
  thick, everybody was an idiot. And then I've just got to, like,
• 10:43
  call people and be like, do you have debt? And like that. That
• 10:46
  was, like, the I think it was like, not a low point, but it
• 10:50
  was like, so demotivating, because, like, yeah. And then
• 10:53
  when, when people like, yeah, you're hearing stories, and
• 10:56
  you're like, Oh, your your life sounds really bad. And now I've
• 11:00
  just like, I'm not even selling to you. I'm just a therapist,
• 11:03
  and actually, you don't even qualify for an iba. And they're
• 11:05
  like, Yeah, I've got loads of debt. I've spent it all on. Do
• 11:08
  you know I mean, TVs from bright side or whatever?
• 11:11
  mark ackers: So
• 11:14
  Jack Frimston: I can see why that would be difficult. I
• 11:16
  suppose I'm trying to ascertain why you took that home. Do you
• 11:20
  know what I mean that that those back. Like, I'm thinking of you
• 11:22
  at university, partying, you're studying, you know, you're going
• 11:27
  to go on to better things. Yeah, it's obviously a difficult job
• 11:30
  at the time, but surely, clock in, clock out, leave your
• 11:33
  problems there. But it sounds like you maybe had those
• 11:36
  problems linger a little bit longer, yeah? Like, I definitely
• 11:39
  like, let that like, resonate, like it like, you know, like,
• 11:42
  when you look back at jobs, you don't remember like, the days or
• 11:48
  like the thing, you just remember the feeling, yeah, and
• 11:50
  I look back at that, and like, luckily, I was working with a
• 11:52
  friend at the time, but then, like, I remember them being off
• 11:55
  for like, a week or two, and like, you're surrounded by,
• 11:58
  like, I was like 20 Surrounded by like, 50 year old men that
• 12:02
  were all out in the evenings doing Class A drugs. And you're
• 12:05
  like, what this was in Carlisle? Not nothing bad against
• 12:09
  Carlisle, but, like, it just wasn't a fun place to be. It was
• 12:14
  a very dingy, dark call center where you just, like doing the
• 12:18
  same thing, and it's like you're not allowed to even, like, go
• 12:21
  for a toilet break or whatever. Like, it's just very much like,
• 12:23
  back on the phones, come on dial. You need to hit your KPIs,
• 12:26
  you need to do 100 you need to just like, oh, I need the money.
• 12:30
  Yeah, Carlisle, good night out. It was a good night out. Was
• 12:34
  also is, I've not had a night out in Carlisle in about a
• 12:38
  decade, right? So who knows? Now, I'm sure 2024, it's banging
• 12:42
  what? What did you learn from those two jobs at appointment
• 12:46
  setting and cold call in the
• 12:49
  public? I think anybody that cold calls, because I did it
• 12:52
  from such a young age, like 16 to 17, and then you going on to
• 12:57
  like 20 like, it just becomes a bit of the norm. Whereas I
• 13:01
  think, like, when you're like, when you do it, when you're
• 13:03
  older, it doesn't feel like, like, I always talk about, like,
• 13:06
  the fear of rejection. I'm like, I've done it. I've had, like,
• 13:08
  when, when we call for wham. Now, like, it's very rare. Like,
• 13:13
  I can't remember the last time someone was like, really awful
• 13:17
  to me. Like, like, it because it doesn't happen. Like, you get
• 13:20
  the odd person that's a bit shirty, but like, they're not,
• 13:24
  like, awful, awful. Whereas back then, like, I probably blocked
• 13:29
  out all the memories. I can't remember the specifics of it,
• 13:32
  but people were like, because they're members of the public as
• 13:34
  well, you shouldn't be calling it like, shouting at you. And
• 13:37
  then you just, like, It startled you. And like, you're a young
• 13:39
  man, and you're like, oh, is this what happens as you get
• 13:42
  older? People like torture. You like this. Obviously, calling
• 13:47
  the public and calling businesses are different, but,
• 13:50
  but equally, you'd have got much but, like you are well known now
• 13:53
  for cold calling you. Lot of people look up to you and follow
• 13:56
  your content and calling cold calling. So is there an element
• 13:59
  of though, when you're calling today, the reason people are
• 14:02
  more receptive, it's just simply because you're better at it.
• 14:05
  Like, can you think back to what your calls may have sounded like
• 14:08
  then versus now? Yeah, it would have been all me. How do I how
• 14:14
  do I get everything about our proposition over to them?
• 14:18
  Because, like, you don't under until that, that phrase of like,
• 14:22
  people don't care about you, your problem, your website, what
• 14:25
  your solution, whatever like, until I knew that it was very
• 14:28
  much like, how are they going to know that we're like an award
• 14:31
  winning business? How do they know that we've saved millions,
• 14:33
  1000s in Ivas? They're not going to know that, whereas they don't
• 14:37
  care. So how do I make it so I was running in there, yapping at
• 14:41
  people, and then all of a sudden you're a bit like people like,
• 14:44
  I'm bored of this that some mockney guys just cold called
• 14:47
  me, and I don't want to talk to him. I've never done this, you
• 14:50
  know, I've sat down with reps one to ones about 10 years. And
• 14:53
  so say you've got someone that isn't hitting their number, I
• 14:56
  would always be like, so how come is not hitting your number?
• 14:58
  What you've been doing this? Look.
• 15:00
  mark ackers: Activity. And like, Steve was like, No, I'd do a
• 15:03
  discovery call on them, how much you think that's cost you in
• 15:05
  commission. And he was like, why the fuck have I never thought to
• 15:09
  do that? And he's like, No, I'd say to them, so you've not hit
• 15:13
  your number. How long you not being hit your number for?
• 15:15
  What's the reason for that? How long is that? How much reckon
• 15:18
  that's cost you in commission? Talk to me about your long term
• 15:21
  goals. How much further away are you? Yeah, big gap. I just feel
• 15:24
  like that's so fucking obvious. I've never put a rep and a one
• 15:28
  to one for a pain funnel against their own goals. I like that
• 15:32
  really obviously, yeah, I'm gonna use that. So how did you
• 15:35
  make that switch? Then? Like, from having the calls all about
• 15:38
  they need to hear about our award winning services. They
• 15:40
  need to hear about how good we are to it's not about me, it's
• 15:43
  about them. How did you learn to make that switch
• 15:47
  Jack Frimston: to that? That switch didn't happen until
• 15:52
  probably, like, eight, nine years later. Like, I think I got
• 15:57
  more awareness. But like, I think what, what happened is, as
• 16:01
  I progressed through my sales jobs, and I've had like, various
• 16:04
  different sales jobs, they give you like the bit, and then they
• 16:08
  give you like you get better training. So when I worked at,
• 16:12
  mark ackers: sorry, sorry, we can keep rolling. So when I
• 16:16
  worked@read.co.uk
• 16:17
  Jack Frimston: they like, gave me Sandler Training. So Sandler
• 16:20
  Training was, like, really understanding, like the pain,
• 16:23
  but I still didn't, like get it, but I knew the questions to ask.
• 16:27
  I knew the the path to go down, like when I was working, like
• 16:31
  commercial insurance, the first thing that you had to ask was,
• 16:35
  what? What are their needs? Right? Which makes sense. So I
• 16:39
  was asking the questions, but then it's like, it's only been
• 16:43
  later on in life that I've really understood the
• 16:46
  psychology. And I think it's like, you can train somebody to
• 16:49
  have the here are the here are the things to do. But if
• 16:53
  somebody doesn't understand why they're doing it, they can,
• 16:56
  like, learn the move that they can't, like, win the fight, if
• 16:59
  that make sense? Yeah. So just help do some maths for me here.
• 17:03
  How long you been in sales? About 16 years. 16 years, and
• 17:07
  you just said there you didn't make that switch for eight or
• 17:09
  nine years. You were already, like, a year into your career,
• 17:13
  so to speak. Yeah. So really, what we're saying here is the
• 17:15
  first 10 of your 16 years, you weren't doing the right thing.
• 17:19
  1,000,000% is that it's the same year, 10 times over. So so let's
• 17:25
  think so I moved to London in when I was 21 and then I moved
• 17:31
  out of London for when I was like 27 so that's six years.
• 17:35
  Within those six years, I had four jobs, four different sales
• 17:38
  jobs that I wasn't very good at, and I probably got better at,
• 17:43
  but definitely by the point I was in the last job, I was
• 17:46
  better. But thinking from me now to me then,
• 17:52
  I sometimes wish that me now could go back and do those like
• 17:56
  cruddy sales jobs. So I'm like, I would have done it so much
• 17:59
  differently. I would have been so much better. And also
• 18:02
  thinking about like mindset, like sales, for me, is an
• 18:06
  umbrella of two things, communication and mindset. So
• 18:08
  the communication wasn't there. I was still Dell boy. But as the
• 18:11
  years progressed, maybe a watered down version, still
• 18:15
  trying to build rapport. Somebody on the other end of the
• 18:18
  phone says, Yeah, I'm doing this because I've got three kids. Oh,
• 18:21
  I've got three kids. And it was like, all fake, like, sunshiny
• 18:24
  rapport, the stuff that I now take the mickey out of on
• 18:27
  LinkedIn. But it was only like later on where I, like, really
• 18:31
  started to, like, understand and become, like, a good seller. But
• 18:34
  the mindset wasn't there either. I was like, I was like, I wasn't
• 18:39
  when you think about what a high performer is no way, nowhere
• 18:42
  near I wasn't putting the reps in outside of work. It was very
• 18:45
  much nine to five, turn up, do the bit. Don't think about it.
• 18:49
  Was what I learned in, like, the last three, four years, if you
• 18:54
  like, it doesn't take a lot. So, like, if you put a few hours in
• 18:59
  before work, like, you commute. You put that commute time in,
• 19:03
  you start listening to podcasts, you start, like, researching.
• 19:06
  You put the recipe in while you're in work, and then you put
• 19:08
  a bit of work outside of work. It doesn't take long until,
• 19:11
  like, you kind of like, overtake other people that aren't putting
• 19:14
  the work in. Like, to be in the top 5% of sellers, you gotta
• 19:17
  think that 95% of people probably aren't doing anything.
• 19:20
  They've just got the experience. They're complacent. They're
• 19:22
  doing the same thing they've always done. Versus, like, if
• 19:24
  you put in a little bit of effort, the same with anything
• 19:27
  like, you think about human beings, like, hardly anybody can
• 19:30
  speak languages, but like, if you, if you put in a little bit
• 19:33
  of effort, then you'll probably speak, you'll be in the top 5%
• 19:35
  of bilingual human beings. Maybe don't check the maths on that
• 19:40
  one. You get the point. Can we just get a fact check? Yeah,
• 19:43
  please, yeah. Um, so here's, here's what's really
• 19:47
  interesting. You said you wished if you now could go back.
• 19:51
  Effectively, what you're saying is, when you started off in
• 19:54
  those jobs, if you had access to someone that had already done it
• 19:58
  and walked the path that you.
• 20:00
  mark ackers: Want to walk, you'd have done things differently.
• 20:04
  That Jack would have existed, right? You would have been able
• 20:07
  to find and work with someone that already done that. If you
• 20:10
  could go back to that, that person effectively give you,
• 20:16
  when you're sort of starting out in sales, access to someone
• 20:19
  that's walked the path that you're about to walk, had
• 20:22
  success in those roles that it would have fundamentally changed
• 20:25
  what you did and the results that you had obviously, like
• 20:29
  those people exist like right now. You're on a path. What,
• 20:33
  what do you think the impact would have been if you could
• 20:35
  have worked with a coach at that early age that could have helped
• 20:41
  Jack Frimston: you. I think the majority of sales jobs are,
• 20:44
  here's your product knowledge, get in and, like, start selling.
• 20:48
  There's like, they say training, but there's actually not sales
• 20:51
  training. I think what, what I definitely would have needed is
• 20:55
  someone to, like, unlock my motivation. Okay, so my
• 20:59
  motivation was all about everything that was happening
• 21:01
  outside of work. Now, I've always had the mindset of, while
• 21:05
  what, even if I like, I'm not pursuing a career in insurance,
• 21:09
  right? I'm there, my mindset and my work ethic was always, while
• 21:13
  I'm here, I'm going to work as hard as I can, I'm going to put
• 21:16
  I'm going to put 100% in anyway. But like, I wasn't trying to get
• 21:20
  better. It was more like, you're like, being busy isn't
• 21:25
  necessarily being productive. Like, working hard isn't like,
• 21:28
  necessarily working smart. So I think I needed somebody to
• 21:31
  maybe, like, show me the way of like, okay, let's, let's sit
• 21:35
  down with you. What are you trying to do? What are you
• 21:36
  trying to, like, unlock what I'm trying to do this outside, and
• 21:39
  I'm trying to get to this. Okay? And what from within, from
• 21:43
  within work and your career, what? What would that? How can
• 21:46
  we get you there by doing this? Do you know, I mean, so if it's
• 21:49
  like a well, if I had more money, I'd be able to do this,
• 21:52
  this and this, I think it's like unpicking those different
• 21:56
  motivation points, and that's kind of what I lacked. And I
• 22:00
  think it's so Hindsight is beautiful. And like, like, I'm
• 22:05
  grateful for where I'm at now, but like, you just kind of wish
• 22:09
  somebody had, like, switched on the lights and be like, just so
• 22:11
  you know you're doing this wrong, X, Y and Zed, if you just
• 22:15
  make a few tweaks, it's not even, like, massive tweaks, but
• 22:18
  a few tweaks. Then Then you move completely in a different
• 22:22
  direction. How much that was down to you, though, not being
• 22:26
  unless, you know, remember, you were sort of 20 at the time,
• 22:29
  ish, maybe a bit younger, maybe a bit older. But how much is
• 22:32
  down to you just weren't mature enough at that point to realize
• 22:35
  that, or that is a reflection of the environment that you're in.
• 22:39
  You know, the way you've described those jobs sound like,
• 22:41
  you know, little grubby offices where that's not going to be
• 22:45
  there to inspire and motivate you. So how much of that is down
• 22:48
  to you as an individual, not being open minded, mature,
• 22:51
  whatever you want to call it, versus using the wrong place?
• 22:55
  I think, yeah, 1 million. I think a lot of them, not, not
• 22:58
  all of the jobs that I worked in, but a lot of them were like,
• 23:01
  the wrong place that don't inspire, they don't motivate
• 23:04
  you. And I think, like, that's like a lot of salespeople, like,
• 23:09
  especially when we think about like, SDRs, AES, a lot of them
• 23:14
  are like, 20 to 30. And within 20 to 30 there's that question
• 23:19
  mark of, like, what is my life? What am I doing? Where am I
• 23:22
  going to be? I'm probably like, 2526 I'm like, this isn't the
• 23:27
  path I thought I'd be on. I'm just working like a crawly sales
• 23:30
  job. What's the point? Whereas it's like, you can twist that
• 23:34
  completely and you can be like, imagine if I got really good at
• 23:37
  this, imagine what person I could be. Imagine how it would
• 23:39
  change my life. And like, now, I mean, I'm lucky to be in that
• 23:42
  position where I'm like, I'm so grateful for all of that. But
• 23:45
  the time you just, you don't realize, and obviously you you
• 23:50
  then find yourself now in a position where you can make that
• 23:53
  change. We'll come to what you're doing now later. I found
• 23:58
  it really interesting. We don't need to do anything else, but
• 24:00
  you move to London then. And you had a two hour commute. Why
• 24:04
  don't you just move close to your job, or get a job closer to
• 24:07
  where you are? London's massive London is massive, and a 21 year
• 24:11
  old is stupid. That's all I can say. But like so, and the
• 24:16
  annoying thing was, it was, like, it was actually quite
• 24:18
  close in, like, location wise. But what I had to do is I had to
• 24:22
  get the tube from where I lived into the city center, and then I
• 24:26
  had to get another tube back out to the city center. So it was
• 24:30
  like, like, out of there and then end up there. So it was
• 24:33
  like, 12 commute every single day, starting work at nine
• 24:36
  o'clock. You're leaving at seven. You're getting home at
• 24:38
  seven. It was like, those are the jobs I talked about, the IVA
• 24:43
  place, this one as well. I was only there for five months, but
• 24:47
  that makes my belly like, it gives me that, like, feeling
• 24:52
  like, oh, did I really do that? And then I got a little bit
• 24:56
  smart and went, Oh, imagine if I didn't have a job here and I
• 24:58
  could just.
• 25:00
  Do an hour commute in London like everybody else. Yeah, and
• 25:03
  then that's Reed, isn't it? That's where you went next,
• 25:06
  yeah, I went to read next. So, like, I interviewed for two
• 25:09
  companies. I got a job offer@read.co.uk
• 25:13
  and I got offered a job in recruitment. The recruitment job
• 25:16
  paid two grand more. So the recruitment job was 22 and Reid
• 25:21
  was 20k and I was like, I'm going to take the recruitment
• 25:23
  job for 2k more. And my family were like, whoa, whoa, whoa,
• 25:26
  slow down. Slow down. Cab where they were like, right? This is
• 25:29
  like, a little unknown recruitment job, like, the
• 25:31
  commute still a little bit far. They're like, this is Reed,
• 25:34
  massive company office in Covent Garden. Look at what they do for
• 25:38
  all their staff on a monthly basis. Like, just, just don't be
• 25:41
  hasty, just for a couple of grand more. And I was like, I
• 25:44
  was still young. I was like, Yeah, whatever. Then I'll take
• 25:46
  that one best decision, the recruitment job I probably would
• 25:49
  have lasted three months, and I would have hated it. Reed was
• 25:52
  one, one of the best places to work. Like, I still have very
• 25:56
  fond memories of them. And they were a company that did give a
• 26:01
  shit about their people and did care about getting them better
• 26:04
  at sales. Was I self aware enough to take it all on board?
• 26:08
  Probably not, and I thought that I knew better, but I think
• 26:13
  that's ego of a 22 year old. And you were really honest with me
• 26:18
  when we sort of spoke about Reid before off camera, you said that
• 26:22
  you got promoted too quickly. And the only person in Reid,
• 26:26
  don't mean to laugh, but the only person in Reed history to
• 26:29
  get demoted, demoted. What the hell happened there? I was
• 26:34
  very confident. Went in and, like, I think, like, like most,
• 26:38
  they probably hired loads and loads of young people. And I
• 26:40
  saw, like, every month there was a new influx. And, like, I was
• 26:43
  on the phone, I was doing really, really well. And they
• 26:45
  were like, this kid is good. This kid's doing something. And
• 26:48
  I was like, I was selling low of value stuff, 300 400 pound.
• 26:54
  Like, imagine if we put him on the three, 4k stuff. Like, he's
• 26:58
  really good. So he's like, move desk. I moved so that was there,
• 27:02
  and then I moved two desks to the higher value, and I've only
• 27:05
  been there a few months. And I was like, Hey guys, yeah, like,
• 27:08
  all confident. And then I think a month in, nothing could
• 27:11
  happen. They were like, I think we've been too hasty. We're
• 27:14
  gonna move you back down. And like, I was like, I'm the only
• 27:18
  person in history to be demotivated,
• 27:23
  mark ackers: demoted and demoted, demoted and
• 27:25
  demotivated. That's the one. Yeah. How did you deal with
• 27:28
  that? Because there is that. Oh, sorry, guys. Let me just pick up
• 27:32
  my pen and pencil and phone and move to two decks down, or
• 27:36
  whatever it was like, how, how did you not let that beat you?
• 27:40
  And where you think I just need to leave, because I can imagine
• 27:43
  making that move, and everyone's seeing it as well.
• 27:46
  Must be like, you say, demotivating, but how did you
• 27:50
  cope with her?
• 27:52
  Jack Frimston: You know what? I think it was one of those, like,
• 27:56
  I just took it on the chin. Like, like, I really like, and
• 28:00
  that's kind of been, like a bit of a mindset thing through life,
• 28:04
  like it'll be what it is. I was, like, Cole, what? What's in my
• 28:08
  control at this point? Probably subconsciously more so. But
• 28:11
  like, Colt, have been demoted. Let's have a laugh about it.
• 28:15
  Everyone's gonna take the piss anyway, so I might as well join
• 28:17
  in, and then, just like, focus on getting good, back where I
• 28:21
  was, and then I was only, I was only there for another year, and
• 28:24
  then classic, young salesperson, I moved to another company with
• 28:29
  bigger dreams and hopes of bigger commission, and that
• 28:32
  didn't come to fruition well before that. This is, we don't
• 28:37
  need again to dwell on this, but I need to hear more. This was
• 28:40
  the boy band phase, the boy band phase. So at this point, had you
• 28:44
  decided sales was the career for you, but you need to go and do
• 28:48
  this? Or were you still unsure if you went to be in sales long
• 28:51
  term? I knew that I was, well, I say, I knew that I was never
• 28:54
  going to be in sales full time. I was like, sales is a stop gap,
• 28:57
  1,000,000%
• 28:59
  32 year old, sat here now sales full time. I'm going to be doing
• 29:03
  sales for the rest of my life now. Like I know that at the
• 29:06
  time, was like, it's a stopgap. I was like, I'm in a boy band. I
• 29:10
  say boy band. We thought we were a cool indie band. We weren't.
• 29:14
  And I thought, like, this boy band is going to take off. We're
• 29:18
  going to be the next big thing. Move over. JLS, we're in town.
• 29:22
  We're taking over. I was like, just do this until it takes on,
• 29:26
  like we were so confident that it was going to happen. I was
• 29:30
  like, I'll just, I'll just keep doing this until we get there
• 29:34
  again. Though, is that not a reflection of the reason why you
• 29:36
  probably didn't have the the mindset to be successful in
• 29:40
  sales, then, yeah, 1,000,000% like, I remember, like, being on
• 29:44
  the phone, but then I'm like, my head is somewhere else. I'm
• 29:48
  like, dreaming about, oh, what would it be like to play the oh
• 29:51
  two arena whereas I'm mid conversation, how can you
• 29:54
  communicate effectively and be a good listener and ask thought
• 29:58
  folking questions if you're not even in the.
• 30:00
  Conversation, if you're just going through the motions, it's
• 30:03
  like, I say to my team, like, you can't just, you can't. Like,
• 30:06
  we all do it. We all fall into autopilot. But like, you can't,
• 30:10
  like, if you really want to be present, you have to be there in
• 30:14
  that moment. And like, genuinely care about what you're listening
• 30:18
  to, genuinely care about those problems that you're listening
• 30:21
  to, and think, How can I ask a good question next? Whereas, if
• 30:24
  you're like, right, okay, oh, what? Sorry, you said that.
• 30:26
  Right. What's next to my script? Cole, I was just thinking about
• 30:29
  another song that I could write like it's I wasn't present at my
• 30:34
  head was elsewhere. So again, totally understand exactly what
• 30:39
  you're saying. And if you've got bigger dreams, you've got to
• 30:41
  pursue them. And you did that, the boy band phase, as you
• 30:44
  called it. That's not my, my words there, but what was the
• 30:47
  name of the band? Oh, the tailor made. The tailor made is in,
• 30:52
  like, a tailor made suit, yeah, not like golf, but like, like
• 30:55
  the tailor made suit. So that was a band. The tailor made, the
• 30:58
  tailor made, um, kind of music, indie, kind of a bit scouting
• 31:03
  for girls. I love scouting for, like, if you asked me, were you
• 31:07
  good, I'd say, No, did we do all right, yeah, we got lucky. We
• 31:12
  won some decent competitions. We went on tour. We, like, we were,
• 31:15
  like, went on tour like Tom Jones, the beach, woods. I like,
• 31:18
  got to, sorry, Tom Jones is in, like, the Welsh Tom Jones.
• 31:25
  Like, the Tom Jones, yeah. Like, we got to a point where, like,
• 31:31
  we were playing to people of like, 15,000 like, like, I don't
• 31:36
  want to clang. It feels all like, oh, icky. But like, seal
• 31:41
  told me that you've literally called it a boy band phase,
• 31:43
  yeah, but it's a podcast about sales, isn't it? It's not about,
• 31:47
  like, the The LJ, literally, you've got boy band phase. I'm
• 31:50
  here, in here Tom Jones and 15,000 people. We, we did all
• 31:54
  right, like, we, we did quite a lot bigger. So our, our manager
• 31:58
  that signed us, he was part of, like, Live Nation, so, like, he
• 32:01
  put us on all the tours. So we, like did George Ezra, we went on
• 32:04
  tour with madness, which was wicked,
• 32:07
  mark ackers: of just clanging them all, all over the stage.
• 32:09
  Can we pick these names
• 32:11
  Jack Frimston: that we'll stop there? No, I want to hear more.
• 32:16
  You'll like this one. We were crowned the best buskers in
• 32:19
  London by Boris Johnson,
• 32:23
  this is a, this is a wine. I've heard it. I swear down. What are
• 32:26
  you doing in sales? Why? No, because so then, like, one day,
• 32:30
  up until I was, like, working in my sales job, at the time, I was
• 32:35
  like, 26 you want Spotify, yeah. But we're not, we aren't Mark
• 32:40
  hackers. We are not gonna play I think we need to play a bit now.
• 32:43
  We're not gonna play the
• 32:46
  mark ackers: This is awful. Where's this gun? Sorry, right.
• 32:50
  I've got all your songs here.
• 32:53
  The tailor made. It's official. Got that little blue tick as
• 32:55
  well. So what's the best song? None of them are good. Oh,
• 32:59
  what's the best one, though,
• 33:01
  I don't know. Well, living, living, loving, no, no, that's
• 33:05
  rum and Red Bull. That sounds horrible. Rum and Red Bull. Take
• 33:09
  me No, that's bad. Mr. Perfect. Really bad. So about you? Yeah,
• 33:13
  spinning around that's awful, right? Come on, pick a song, or
• 33:16
  I'm gonna pick one. Cougar in the corner. Cougar in the
• 33:19
  corner. Why can I not fight? Ah, got it.
• 33:25
  Jack Frimston: Oh, wow, is this stuff. Hang on, skip.
• 33:38
  mark ackers: Mate, that's I'm gonna give this a Yeah.
• 33:42
  Jack Frimston: How do I like follow? There we are. I don't
• 33:44
  think I follow anyone's spark. I promise you, there's no new
• 33:47
  music coming anytime soon. So why? Why didn't that work out
• 33:50
  then? So I was so I was working in an insurance company selling
• 33:55
  insurance, and the majority of people that worked there were
• 33:59
  young artsy professionals, like singers, dancers. 10 people got
• 34:03
  hired every month. Nine people got sacked every month. So, like
• 34:06
  one would ask, so
• 34:08
  all three of the lads in the boy band started the job. One of the
• 34:12
  lads got sacked for hanging up on people. One of the lads got
• 34:15
  moved to recruitment. And three years in, I was the only one
• 34:18
  that survived in sales. But we would do, we were just doing
• 34:22
  that, and then we, like, we'd say, right, we need a week off.
• 34:24
  We're going on tour. We're doing this, we're doing that. And we
• 34:27
  got a call one day, and we got a call, and it was our agent, it
• 34:31
  was our manager and our tour promoter, and they just said,
• 34:35
  You've not sold enough ticket. I think, like, we'd sold 100 in
• 34:38
  London, 50 in Manchester, and eight in Carlisle.
• 34:43
  We knew no one in car. So that was, no, it's uni there? Yeah,
• 34:45
  no, but no one was Carlisle's very own. No one stays in
• 34:48
  Carlisle. So they pulled the tour. The tour got pulled. And
• 34:52
  then we were just like, What do you want to do now? And I was
• 34:54
  like, lads, I'm done. I'm so over this. I was like, I want to
• 34:58
  go traveling. I want to enjoy myself.
• 35:00
  Of and that's how I ended up on the cruise ships, right? So it
• 35:04
  kind of progresses. So it was like, sales, sales, sales, doing
• 35:07
  music, trying to make a dream of that. That didn't work out. But
• 35:10
  I think it's like, it's an important lesson as well. Like,
• 35:13
  I'm big on, like, chasing your dreams, but it's also important
• 35:16
  to know when to say that's not my dream anymore. Like, I would
• 35:21
  have it would have really, like, I mean, I wouldn't have known,
• 35:24
  because I would have been doing it. But to be, like, 32 like,
• 35:28
  still, like living at my auntie's house, like trying to
• 35:31
  make it in a boy band, I think it's like, there's points where
• 35:33
  your priorities change and you're, like, your fundamentals.
• 35:36
  It's like, what do I like everything I do now with the
• 35:39
  business and, like, the kind of the mission I'm on now, I get
• 35:43
  fulfilled in like, it's the same feeling as, like, performing to
• 35:47
  a crowd, if that makes sense, like you're chasing the same
• 35:51
  kind of endorphin rush of like, when you close a big deal, or
• 35:54
  like you have a great client succeed and things like that.
• 35:58
  Look, I love sales, right? Really passionate about it. I
• 36:02
  don't feel like I ever compared it to, like, sitting backstage
• 36:04
  with Tom Jones and 15,000 people singing my songs. But okay,
• 36:09
  whatever, whatever sort of helps you there. Um, so yeah, it felt
• 36:13
  like when I was going through sort of your background, sort of
• 36:17
  preparing for the podcast, I felt like this was the point
• 36:20
  where I was like, it feels like I lost his way here, right? We
• 36:23
  went from, and you literally called it a boy band phase. I've
• 36:26
  never felt so lied to, but you literally said, like, I had all
• 36:31
  these sales jobs boy band phase. Then it was, it was like, like,
• 36:34
  you say, cruise ships, Amazon, warehouse. It felt like you lost
• 36:38
  your way. And I was kind of wondering, why weren't you in
• 36:41
  sales at that point? Yeah, so, like, I just the the music had
• 36:46
  ended, and I was young enough to say, I just want to, like, get
• 36:49
  away. I want to start again, do something. What can I do? I
• 36:52
  thought, well, you can have a roof over your head, go, go
• 36:55
  traveling, work on cruise ship. So I did that for a couple of
• 36:57
  years, and, like, and I enjoyed it, and it was great. And I
• 37:00
  think, like, the communication skills that I had definitely
• 37:03
  helped me, like, on the first cruise ship, I was, like a bingo
• 37:06
  host. The second cruise ship, I was in, like a rock band
• 37:10
  performing on the stage. And then, like, pandemic hit. And
• 37:14
  like, I was 28 and I'm at like, a real What do you do with your
• 37:19
  life? And then I went back to England, like during the
• 37:22
  pandemic. And then I was like, well, I need some pocket money.
• 37:24
  I'm gonna start working in Amazon. And then I was like, I
• 37:28
  need to do something. My mate was like, I've got a spare room
• 37:30
  in Manchester. Why don't you move to Manchester and just get
• 37:34
  a sales job? I was like, sound like, I know them, like, bread
• 37:37
  and butter. I'm always gonna get a sales job, I just feel like, I
• 37:42
  don't know if you've been there, but like, I could just, you can
• 37:44
  always find something, and you're like, I'll always have
• 37:47
  enough money, because it's what I know my CV is, all right, even
• 37:51
  I've got the scattiest CV, like, I don't think, I don't think I'd
• 37:55
  hire me if I, if I interviewed for my job, like a job at my
• 37:59
  company. Now, I think I'd look at my CV and go, This person is
• 38:02
  too scary. I don't know, like it's, it's, fills me with fear
• 38:06
  all the things. But I landed another sales job, and that was
• 38:11
  the point where it was like, This is it? There's no There's
• 38:14
  no boy band to fall back on. There's no cruise ship. I'm not
• 38:18
  going back there. What happens now? So I'm like, 28 I was like,
• 38:24
  What is this path? Like, I'm approaching 30. You think, like,
• 38:28
  this is a point where I should have my shit figured out. I
• 38:32
  don't have anything figured out. I don't know what I'm doing. And
• 38:35
  I was like, this is like the time to make change. I started
• 38:39
  thinking, and the change didn't come from, I'm going to get good
• 38:43
  at sales. The change started coming from, like, self
• 38:46
  development of, like, I'm reading the business books, you
• 38:49
  know, like, all, like, the the David Goggin stuff, the Jesse,
• 38:53
  it's that that was the stuff. And I was like, right? What if I
• 38:56
  run a marathon? That would be good for your mindset, right?
• 38:58
  Okay, I did that. And then, like, I stayed in a monastery
• 39:02
  and, like, I started, like, learning about like, mindset and
• 39:04
  all of those things. And then Zach, who's been my best friend
• 39:09
  of 1617, years, we went to high school together, he was like,
• 39:14
  I'm in the same point. He was like, I've been doing this sales
• 39:17
  job my company had just like, don't respect me. I've got a
• 39:21
  baby on the way. He was like, he texted me. Was like, I've had a
• 39:24
  brainwave. I was like, what? It's like, I'm gonna start my
• 39:26
  own business. And then that's where the cogs of like, I'm at a
• 39:31
  point in my life where I don't know what I'm doing, I don't
• 39:34
  really know where I should go. He's on the same and he's like,
• 39:39
  I'm gonna make a leap. I'm going to do something. And I was like,
• 39:42
  we were having conversations on a regular basis. And I was like,
• 39:45
  there's enough room on that piece of wood for two. He was
• 39:49
  like, Why didn't join me? And then that's when the next
• 39:53
  chapter of life, I guess, after the cruise ship and the
• 39:56
  pandemics, starts when you say that piece.
• 40:00
  Would Are you referring to Jack and Rose? I was glad that you
• 40:04
  picked up on the Titanic. Well, just cruise ships, Titanic.
• 40:08
  Yeah. So before we open up that next chapter, obviously, that's
• 40:11
  going to be a really interesting part of this podcast. Let's have
• 40:14
  some funny stories, right? You've obviously worked at a
• 40:17
  number of different sort of whether you want to use word
• 40:19
  dodgy or not, jobs. And what is the when you look back in now,
• 40:25
  the funniest thing, or funny story from selling that springs
• 40:29
  to mind the first company when I first moved to London, like I
• 40:34
  remember interviewing, and like, I'm not, I'm not saying like I
• 40:38
  was good at sales. I was crap at sailed, but I was switched on.
• 40:41
  And I think, like, it was a little area in edgeware, which
• 40:44
  is, like a shithole in London on the corner. Anyone watching this
• 40:47
  in edgeware? Sorry, but like, I think I interviewed, and, like,
• 40:51
  I was, like, around people that were also interviewing. I was
• 40:53
  like, I'm a bit different here. Like, I'm a bit more, like,
• 40:57
  switched on, everyone felt a bit slower. And I think, like, the
• 41:01
  the Manage, the managers, I think they couldn't believe
• 41:04
  their luck. They were like, how was this guy? Like, got, got
• 41:07
  this, like, how's he ended up here? And, like, they they left.
• 41:10
  They said, Jack, can you stay behind? They were like, We want
• 41:13
  you. We want to offer you a job on the spot right now. Will you
• 41:16
  take it? I was like, Yeah, all right, first interview in
• 41:19
  London. Like, I just arrived, bags packed ready to be in a boy
• 41:22
  band. And they were like, we'll give you a job. You can start
• 41:24
  tomorrow. I was like, Cool, I need a job. And it was
• 41:27
  something. The wage was awful. It might be like, 16 grand a
• 41:30
  year, and I was spending half of that on the big commute. So that
• 41:34
  was going on, and that was selling insurance for sky. Now,
• 41:39
  I don't know if you realize, but if you've got sky and you box
• 41:42
  breaks, like, you just ring sky and they'll look after it, but,
• 41:46
  but they had all these people's details, and we were like,
• 41:48
  ringing them up. And it was, it was a dodgy, manipulating
• 41:52
  company, and they were like, ringing old people. And I was
• 41:54
  like, I don't feel like ethical doing this like you need to
• 41:58
  ensure you Sky remote. It's the same price as a domino as a
• 42:01
  month like selling that one of the guys, the manager, like we
• 42:06
  all, got called into a board, boardroom meeting, and I'd roped
• 42:09
  in the other two lads from the boy band at this time. So where
• 42:13
  I went, they followed. And they were like, someone's been
• 42:16
  stealing bank details. I was like, What's up me? I'm looking
• 42:20
  at my lads and like, not them. And then they called the manager
• 42:24
  out. And they were like, right, he's gone right moving forward.
• 42:27
  They were like, Jack, can you stay behind? I paid about two
• 42:29
  three months. They were like, You're, uh, you're the new
• 42:32
  manager, assistant manager to another guy, Assistant to the
• 42:35
  manager, yeah, like, 21
• 42:40
  I was like, Oh, I'm now the sales manager. Like, what is
• 42:44
  this going to turn to a funny story, because this is so far,
• 42:46
  like, I'm bit depressed. Well, no, it's like, I don't think,
• 42:49
  like, yeah, it's like, depressing. But also, like, I
• 42:53
  became the assistant sales manager, and then two weeks
• 42:57
  later I got sucked.
• 42:59
  So that's probably the, okay, there's the punchline. So what
• 43:02
  happened? Why did you get sacked? Somebody turned up for a
• 43:05
  job interview. All the the owners of the company were on
• 43:08
  lunch, and I was like, I'm the assistant manager. I'll just do
• 43:10
  it. And then they were like, you shouldn't have, like, gone above
• 43:13
  your pay grade. I was like, Yeah, but I'm the assistant
• 43:15
  manager. You guys said that I was and they were like, yeah,
• 43:17
  you've gone above your pay grade. You sucked. I was like,
• 43:19
  right, Cole. And then I went and found read.co.uk, the UK is
• 43:22
  number one job site. Thankfully,
• 43:25
  you're the coin for that. Yeah, every time I say it so funny.
• 43:30
  No, but like dodgy and just like how things happen. But what I
• 43:35
  find funny is, as a sales manager, the first thing I did
• 43:39
  was go to Google Images, type in motivational posters, print them
• 43:43
  all off on crappy eight, four, and stick all these things up on
• 43:46
  the wall that say you can do this. You got this. And I think
• 43:49
  back, and I go, how pathetic. So, okay, there was a punchline
• 43:54
  there. What about, like, a funny story of a prospect, maybe the
• 43:57
  rudest call you've ever had, or the funniest sort of experience
• 44:01
  you've had in sales with a customer prospect.
• 44:05
  I remember, I remember cold calling, cold calling, somebody
• 44:11
  tell them advertising space, and it was stables, and this woman
• 44:14
  was crying down the phone and said, nobody cares about the
• 44:17
  horses. Why would you want to advertise? Nobody. Nobody in
• 44:20
  like swearing, nobody cares about the horses. And I thought
• 44:23
  that was quite a unique take. Surely, some people do care
• 44:27
  about the horses. I'm
• 44:29
  mark ackers: not getting the funny stories, but I'm getting
• 44:31
  stories. Sorry, that's okay. So let's move on. Then you your
• 44:37
  colleague, Zach, who, because I come on your podcast, yes,
• 44:39
  couple years ago, he says, I'm going to start my own business.
• 44:44
  That feels like a pretty precarious time for him to do
• 44:47
  that if he's got a baby on the way. I can imagine those
• 44:49
  conversations didn't go down too well at home, but you've decided
• 44:54
  I'm going to join I'm going to join the business. Talk to us
• 44:56
  about that like obviously people who follow you will know about.
• 45:00
  But what, what was the big vision here?
• 45:04
  Jack Frimston: So Zach was, Zach was working in like, a 360 job
• 45:09
  where, like, he was the guy that went in, open the doors, via,
• 45:13
  via cold calling, and then he would sit the meetings, and then
• 45:16
  he would close the deals, and then he'd pass it on, like,
• 45:19
  okay, whatever it is.
• 45:21
  He had one month's rent, and his wife was very supportive. She
• 45:25
  was like, you you do it. You do you like, because it's one of
• 45:28
  those. I think when you go into it with the mentality of this
• 45:32
  has got to work like, there's no other when we asked some of our
• 45:37
  team, like, Oh, why did you hit commission this month, some of
• 45:39
  them were like, I had to. I've got other priorities outside of
• 45:42
  work that I need to make sure that I'm hitting so, like, it's
• 45:46
  like, one of those that you've got to you've got to do it. So
• 45:49
  Zach jumped in, and I think he was ringing a few people, and
• 45:54
  they were saying to him, I don't need what you're selling me. But
• 45:57
  what I do need is, like, I need someone like you to open the
• 46:00
  doors for me. Do you want a job? So every third or fourth call
• 46:03
  people saying, like, I need someone like you to like and
• 46:06
  obviously we're big into like Sandler and Benjamin dennehys
• 46:11
  approach and things like that. And I think, like, he'd been
• 46:14
  listening to the to Benjamin Dennehy might win it podcast,
• 46:18
  and he was like, one of the things that they said between
• 46:20
  them is, if you are working from home during a pandemic and
• 46:24
  you're cold calling, you've not got someone leaning over your
• 46:27
  shoulder, you should be doing this for yourself. And I think
• 46:30
  one of Ben Benjamin dennays first job was appointment setter
• 46:33
  from massive marketing company, and that was like, I'm just
• 46:36
  going to do that. And like, there was some like, doubt
• 46:39
  around it. And then I think on his ninth call, someone was
• 46:42
  like, if you can do that for me, then yeah, we'll go. And that
• 46:46
  was his first client. And then he got busy, and we were
• 46:49
  obviously, we were talking once or twice a week anyway, as mates
• 46:53
  do, he's filling me in on his I'm telling him about how crap
• 46:55
  this is, but what I'm doing in my life. And he was like, there
• 46:58
  is an opportunity here. And then that's where it was like, right?
• 47:01
  I'm going to go off. I'm going to start listening. Start
• 47:03
  listening to the podcast, I'm going to start reading, I'm
• 47:05
  going to, like, really put some time in. And then it got to a
• 47:07
  point that I think that was, like, in the summer, and then it
• 47:10
  got to the point by the January, I was like, right, I'm all in.
• 47:13
  I'm joining, let's go. And this feels like the pivotal moment
• 47:16
  where, like, you say it was self development, it was realizing
• 47:20
  sales as a skill, one that you can properly learn. Um, just
• 47:24
  before, like, you started doing that, did you think at the time
• 47:27
  you were good at sales? Yeah, yeah, I thought I was good at
• 47:31
  sales, but I was crap at sales. What's the difference there?
• 47:34
  Like, How good did you think you were, versus how crap were you
• 47:37
  now, when you look back? So let's do it on a scale of one to
• 47:39
  10. How good did you think you were? I thought I was a 10. Wow.
• 47:43
  So you thought you were brilliant. Then, yeah? And now,
• 47:46
  when you look back, probably a three, right? But then if I, if
• 47:50
  you asked me to rank myself now, I'd probably say I
• 47:53
  was gonna be really a guy. Go, yeah, definitely a 12. No, I'd
• 47:56
  probably say a seven or like, like, because I think, like, if
• 48:00
  you're self aware enough to know, like, there's always room
• 48:03
  to learn. Like, like, do I do things perfectly? No, like,
• 48:06
  you're always looking for like, that extra bit like, and I think
• 48:09
  like, with self awareness, when it comes it's like, I think
• 48:13
  anyone that sits there and says, I'm a tenant sales is somebody
• 48:16
  that is probably oblivious to the truth. It's like, there's
• 48:21
  always, there's always room to learn and room to improve and
• 48:24
  get better. Could I have asked a better question? Could I have
• 48:27
  listened more? Could I be more in the present moment? So like,
• 48:29
  definitely, like, I'm still learning and like, I'm still on
• 48:33
  that, that road to development, and I think fast forward 30
• 48:37
  years, I'll still be there anyone that sort of work closely
• 48:41
  with me, will know that I have to ask this question. Like I
• 48:43
  just when I hear people say seven out of 10, it's just I've
• 48:46
  got to ask it. When people say seven out of 10, they normally
• 48:50
  mean six or eight. You're saying you're a seven out of 10. What
• 48:53
  do you really mean? I reckon seven,
• 48:56
  mark ackers: seven. Seven's a number for a reason in it. And
• 48:58
  no, but I just feel like that's the casual most people when they
• 49:01
  score a film, if it's all right, we give it a seven out of 10.
• 49:04
  It's the go to, yeah. I don't think I'd say a six. That means
• 49:07
  I'm probably just Yeah. I don't think I'd say a six. But then I
• 49:11
  also think, like eight is virgin. It depends if you want,
• 49:14
  like, a self aware answer or an ego statistical answer. Well, an
• 49:17
  egotistical answer when you said 10 out of 10, yeah, lack of self
• 49:22
  awareness seven points. So we're closer to an eight. I mean, you
• 49:25
  get 2.5 you round up in maths. Yeah, I didn't listen in math.
• 49:28
  So earlier, you're an AR 10. Um, do you believe now in your role?
• 49:35
  You are aware of the responsibility you have for the
• 49:39
  for the people, in sense of you didn't have that support, you
• 49:42
  didn't have that workplace, you didn't have that mentorship you
• 49:46
  are now responsible for. Is it 1515, people into like, how do
• 49:52
  you take what the environment you've been ensure that you're
• 49:56
  not repeating history and you're giving them what you needed? I.
• 50:00
  Jack Frimston: So great question. I think I've had a lot
• 50:03
  of bad bosses and a lot of twat bosses, and I like to think that
• 50:08
  may be corrected like and definitely with people that that
• 50:12
  have come and gone throughout the company. Maybe I've not
• 50:14
  always been that 100% but, but we're all human, and I think we
• 50:17
  can acknowledge that. But I like to think like that it's such a
• 50:21
  wanky phrase, but the doors always open. But like,
• 50:25
  genuinely, like, we've got, we've got two new two, two new
• 50:30
  people that are with us. I sit down with one of them twice a
• 50:33
  week for half an hour blocks. Like, it's like that, that
• 50:35
  coaching element every morning within the company, like, we'll
• 50:39
  do something when it's like refining a skill, or cool,
• 50:43
  listening a role play whatever it is, and then throughout the
• 50:45
  day, it's just like, I really think it's like keeping on top
• 50:49
  of people and being there and then learning different people's
• 50:52
  styles. Like, what do you need? Do you need a bit of directness?
• 50:56
  Do you need it to be kind of a bit of a sandwich? Do you need
• 50:59
  it to be, like, softly, softly. But I think, I think that's
• 51:03
  another skill in itself. Is like being a sales manager, and
• 51:06
  obviously like starting a company, you've thrown in the
• 51:09
  deep end, your your head of sales, your team leader, your
• 51:13
  head of it, Head of Marketing, all these different things that
• 51:16
  you're learning. And I think we've just been there's a
• 51:22
  element of skill. There's also an element of luck. Everything
• 51:24
  kind of kind of amalgamates together. Do you think you do
• 51:28
  enough today? You know, you've obviously had that period where
• 51:31
  that thirst for knowledge and desire to improve. Do you still
• 51:35
  have that same passion for self development? You still do
• 51:39
  enough? I like to think so, like, like, yeah, like, in the
• 51:44
  mornings I'm listening to, I can never remember this, but I'm
• 51:48
  listening to, like, an audible book that someone recommended me
• 51:50
  about sales. I'm very lucky that we have our own podcast, and the
• 51:55
  people that we bring on are, like, typically, sales leaders
• 51:58
  or like, like influencers, not influencers, but like legends in
• 52:02
  the world of like, communication. So, like, I got
• 52:05
  to sit down with Chris Voss a couple of weeks ago for an hour.
• 52:08
  I thought that was bullshit. I saw that this is where you you
• 52:12
  come undone because you put so much funny stuff on LinkedIn. I
• 52:16
  saw a picture of you and Chris Voss, and I thought that was
• 52:18
  just some weird post. That's bullshit. There's no way you sat
• 52:21
  with Chris Voss for an hour. He charges like 10 grand an hour.
• 52:25
  Be a cheeky Northerner. You'll get it for free, right? Let's
• 52:28
  see that story. What happened?
• 52:30
  Got so, yeah, so I mean, that episode's coming, coming out in
• 52:32
  a few weeks, by the time this comes out, that that episode of
• 52:35
  us and Chris Voss might come out. But like it was we just, we
• 52:39
  had, we had a we started the podcast with one intention, to
• 52:43
  get Benjamin Dennehy on the podcast. You've changed that you
• 52:46
  because in between the tapes, I've corrected you accordingly.
• 52:51
  No, you said that. Hey, rewind it. He's been calling Benjamin
• 52:54
  dennahi, and I said to him off camera, I think it's denahi,
• 52:57
  because he corrected me, and you've just changed it anyway.
• 53:00
  We love you, Benji,
• 53:02
  so that was the aim, to get that was the aim. And within three
• 53:05
  weeks of starting the podcast, I messaged him on my birthday, and
• 53:08
  he was like, You know what? Yeah, cool. And then, and we
• 53:10
  formed a relationship with, like, we've done a lot of events
• 53:12
  together, and, like, we meet up for lunch when he's around. And
• 53:15
  like, I really love the guy, and I can he seems like he's quite
• 53:18
  like, a mentor type figure to you, yeah, yeah. Definitely like
• 53:21
  it. And he's very wise, very smart. He's like, he's the goat.
• 53:25
  We call him the goat like we're the the young bucks, and he's
• 53:28
  the goat.
• 53:30
  Going off topic now, but we had Chris Voss son on Brandon moss
• 53:35
  on your podcast, on our podcast. So how did you get him on? We
• 53:39
  cold, I'm gonna admit it cold. Emailed
• 53:43
  Unknown: the black swan group, yeah, and they came and they put
• 53:45
  him on, and then we released that episode. Then we Whoa, this
• 53:49
  is important. This is this is really good. So you identified,
• 53:53
  was this all part of the strategy to get Chris not
• 53:57
  Jack Frimston: part of the strategy? Because you it's a
• 53:59
  hard one. Is it like because you might end up there and you might
• 54:02
  be criticized. So Zach reached out to the people that look
• 54:04
  after Christopher, and they said he's just turned one down, and
• 54:07
  they offered him 50 grand. This is what I mean. He still got the
• 54:09
  WhatsApp. And I was just like, alright, we'll never get him.
• 54:11
  Well, let's get his son on because his son's like, really,
• 54:14
  really cool as well, and he'll have some stories. Then we got
• 54:18
  one of the other instructors on sandy Hine, who was amazing, and
• 54:21
  then I reached back out to Sandy after the conversation. And
• 54:24
  like, I'm getting to sit down with these people for an hour,
• 54:27
  an hour and a half, and like, it's, it's a story about, like,
• 54:31
  they're teaching me how to label, how to like this is so
• 54:35
  we've had loads and loads of people from that world that are
• 54:37
  teachers. So I'm learning constantly, and then I'm
• 54:39
  editing. I'm listening to again, and then I'm going to listen to
• 54:41
  my own other podcasts and stuff like that. So I'm always the
• 54:45
  first for knowledge is there. Sandy Hine comes on. Reach back
• 54:48
  out, Sandy, thank you. Would you come back? And then she says,
• 54:50
  Why don't you get these three on? And then I have that
• 54:53
  relationship there with them. Some of the people from the
• 54:55
  media team, and we emailed and said, Listen, we want to get go.
• 55:00
  Risk on can we make it happen? And he turned up and went,
• 55:02
  you've had the whole team. Why my, why am I the last one to be
• 55:05
  invited? And I was like, You were definitely invited first.
• 55:08
  But yeah. And that is amazing. But we look at the we look at
• 55:13
  that from like a prospecting angle. But what we've just done
• 55:17
  there is like, whether, whether that was the intention or not
• 55:20
  like, but that was like, account based strategy, you know, I
• 55:24
  mean, we've got all the influencers and champions who
• 55:27
  are fucking amazing in their own right, like they, they
• 55:29
  definitely deserve their own episodes and then, and then we
• 55:32
  got the decision maker, and we got to sit with Chris Voss for
• 55:35
  an hour and have a masterclass, like one on one, me, Zach and
• 55:40
  him in a room. You don't get that. So this was, this was your
• 55:44
  podcast, though, but did it turn into a masterclass for the two
• 55:48
  of you? Yeah, because it's just, this is like that for us. Like
• 55:52
  the podcast, like conversations, like you get to learn from
• 55:55
  people, and like you ask that,
• 55:58
  we ask the questions that, like I'm curious to know. Because I
• 56:01
  think if I'm curious to know it, then hopefully the audience is
• 56:03
  like, how do you do that? Give me an example of that. What does
• 56:06
  that? What are the low stakes games? Like, we, we've got,
• 56:09
  we've we've won podcast guests by cold calling them, like, out,
• 56:15
  like, out the blue, like, obviously, like, in the same
• 56:17
  way. Like, do you know James Sinclair, the entrepreneur. Um,
• 56:22
  name rings a belly man. He's, like, he's all over Tiktok and
• 56:26
  stuff like that. Oh, he's on Tiktok now, no, he's this multi
• 56:28
  million, or, like, multi millionaire, like, entrepreneur,
• 56:32
  and I just called him. So I'll be honest, I'm calling you to
• 56:35
  invite you on our podcast. It's a bit of a weird one. It's out
• 56:38
  the blue, I don't know. That makes you want to hang up or let
• 56:40
  me have 30 seconds and run through what why I've called
• 56:42
  you,
• 56:43
  mark ackers: yeah, gone then, all right, yeah, block me in. So
• 56:46
  I think it's like the skills that you've got. How can you use
• 56:49
  that in other areas of your life as well? It sounds great. I
• 56:53
  definitely cannot wait to watch that podcast with Chris Voss.
• 56:56
  Honestly, I remember that when I saw that picture, I was going to
• 56:59
  message you, going, how did you do that? And I was expecting you
• 57:03
  to go, you idiot, that's a mock up, because I just thought it's
• 57:06
  not. There's no way. So that's incredible. What a great story.
• 57:09
  So we spoke about, obviously, the fact you're a leader now
• 57:14
  you're a manager, different skill set. This happens to
• 57:17
  salespeople a lot. They're successful, they get promoted
• 57:19
  into a manager role. Appreciate you're not promoted as such.
• 57:22
  You've taken the job, but you're now a first time leader, and
• 57:25
  obviously have been for a number of years. But how are you
• 57:28
  learning and navigating that world?
• 57:32
  Jack Frimston: I think the same way that you
• 57:37
  it's an interesting one, but it's like leaning on people that
• 57:41
  you that you know from like, I've got friends that like lead
• 57:44
  companies and manage teams and stuff like that, but also like
• 57:47
  other like leadership books and leadership podcasts and stuff
• 57:51
  like that. There's so much like knowledge out there, I think,
• 57:54
  like, we're so blessed as like, like humanity now that anything
• 58:00
  you want. Like, not everything. Like, everything's out there for
• 58:03
  free. Like, there, there are people that will kind of, like,
• 58:06
  sell you courses for 1000s and 1000s of pounds on how to be a
• 58:10
  better leader. But not everything has to be behind a
• 58:13
  paywall. Like, if you find the right books, right like, the
• 58:15
  right podcast, the right YouTube videos, like, you can find the
• 58:19
  the knowledge, the issue. The issue isn't the knowledge is, it
• 58:22
  is like putting it into practice and like having the
• 58:26
  accountability. Luckily, me, Zach and Ben, my ops director,
• 58:30
  we hold ourselves accountable in that sense. So it's like, what
• 58:33
  are we doing? What we focusing? What problem are we trying to
• 58:36
  solve? And we're leaning on each other. So we're all going away
• 58:39
  learning, like, different skill sets, then bringing it back to
• 58:42
  the table and be like, I'm going to do x, y and z in this
• 58:44
  situation. What would you do? No, that's right. Proceed with
• 58:47
  that. No, actually, I deal with it like this. And my ops
• 58:51
  director, he comes from he ran teams at vodka revs like and
• 58:55
  then he moved into, like, project management. He's got
• 58:57
  loads of experience managing people, so there's a lot of
• 59:00
  like, on site learning as well from him. Sounds like, obviously
• 59:04
  that's a really important trio there. I've met Zach and Ben.
• 59:06
  Actually, I remember my last couple of weeks at a Lego I was
• 59:10
  like, I'll have a chat with you just before I go.
• 59:13
  What's been the most influential book on you and your career?
• 59:17
  It's a really good question. Mike, it's a real hard one,
• 59:23
  because you think, like my personal life has obviously had
• 59:26
  an effect on my career. But if I, if I think about my career
• 59:31
  now,
• 59:34
  Unknown: I think,
• 59:36
  Jack Frimston: as a seller,
• 59:38
  Sandler, you can't teach a kid to ride a bike at a seminar.
• 59:41
  That's one of the game changer. Also, Chris Voss never split the
• 59:45
  difference
• 59:47
  like Dale Carnegie.
• 59:52
  Very hard to pick one. But like those books about mindset and
• 59:56
  communication, they're like the they're
• 59:59
  probably the draw.
• 1:00:00
  mark ackers: Others. So I've, I've read two of those. I
• 1:00:03
  haven't read the Sarna one, which is ironic, really, because
• 1:00:06
  I really like Sarna.
• 1:00:09
  So three books there. Who would you say said the biggest
• 1:00:13
  influence on you as a seller?
• 1:00:16
  Jack Frimston: It's probably, I don't know if it's like a
• 1:00:18
  political aunt or a cheesy aunt, but it'd probably have to be
• 1:00:21
  Zach like, from, from like, a standpoint of, obviously, like,
• 1:00:24
  doing, being in the trenches every day, like, like, when,
• 1:00:29
  when the business started, I was in a co working space surrounded
• 1:00:33
  by strangers, cold calling. And, like, cold calling is hard at
• 1:00:38
  the best of times, but like to do it in a room full of
• 1:00:40
  strangers, and everybody's got their Macbooks, and they're all
• 1:00:43
  on Canva making pre, like, little graphic designs, and
• 1:00:46
  you're the schmuck in the corner cold calling people like to be
• 1:00:49
  in the trenches and be like, going back and forth with each
• 1:00:52
  other. I've got this, I've got this scenario. I've got this.
• 1:00:55
  This is what I'm dealing with today. Like, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:00:57
  Like, it's like, I think you learn. I think, I think we
• 1:01:01
  underestimate, like friendship, like we learned so much from our
• 1:01:04
  friends. And I know they say like you become like you become
• 1:01:08
  the five people that you're you're surrounded by the most.
• 1:01:12
  But I think like we forget, like you can learn so much from your
• 1:01:15
  friends. Like it doesn't have to necessarily just be somebody
• 1:01:18
  that's year like, 30 years ahead of you. It could just be
• 1:01:22
  somebody like Zach. Zach had, like, Zach's an amazing seller.
• 1:01:25
  He'd been doing the business for six months, so I was like, six
• 1:01:28
  months behind him in other skill set, probably not like he'd been
• 1:01:31
  doing, like, real hard B to B, door opening for years, but in
• 1:01:36
  that new environment, like, and he was like, one step ahead of
• 1:01:39
  me, and like, helping me along the way, and then, like, working
• 1:01:42
  together to solve various different issues. And it's like
• 1:01:46
  we both, we both bring different things to the table. And I think
• 1:01:50
  that's why it works as a relationship, because one
• 1:01:54
  compliments the other. We're not bringing necessarily the same
• 1:01:56
  skill set. Have you ever told him that I say Phil about him,
• 1:02:01
  I'm gonna text him after this actually let him know. No, I
• 1:02:04
  yeah, I love like, we're quite as especially for like, 2024 I
• 1:02:10
  know, like, without sounding or cheeky, like men don't talk
• 1:02:13
  enough, and like, I'm quite lucky. My friendship group has
• 1:02:15
  always, like, spoke about how they feel and like I like, I'm
• 1:02:18
  very grateful to to Zach, and I've definitely told him that
• 1:02:21
  before. I love that. And you're right. People don't in sales can
• 1:02:25
  feel like very lonely place, but being a sales leader or co
• 1:02:28
  founder can also feel like a very lonely place.
• 1:02:32
  mark ackers: What's been the most valuable advice you've ever
• 1:02:36
  been given from a sales perspective?
• 1:02:39
  Jack Frimston: Like
• 1:02:41
  I think it's what
• 1:02:43
  I think people expect results from the work they haven't put
• 1:02:47
  in. And, like, I look back at my time as, like, an early seller.
• 1:02:51
  I thought I could blag it. I really, really thought I could
• 1:02:54
  blag it, and I tried to blag it, and you get so far, but
• 1:02:57
  eventually the cracks always show. Like, for any, any seller,
• 1:03:04
  like, you've just got to put the work in, and it's not forever.
• 1:03:07
  Like, it really, really isn't forever. I remember Benjamin
• 1:03:10
  Dennehy saying, like, you're not gonna, you won't be prospecting
• 1:03:14
  forever. Like, like, you won't be like when, when the business
• 1:03:18
  started from nine till six every single day, cold calling on a
• 1:03:23
  mobile phone, Google up one after the other. My week doesn't
• 1:03:27
  look like that now, because the business has changed. Like there
• 1:03:30
  wouldn't be enough time to dial, like there's a team to manage,
• 1:03:34
  there's deals to close, there's clients to work on this,
• 1:03:38
  journeys to Newcastle to do exciting stuff like this. So,
• 1:03:40
  like, it changes, but it's like, just imagine, like, imagine,
• 1:03:44
  like, a year where you really, really put the effort in just
• 1:03:49
  one year, every single day without, without fail, you put
• 1:03:52
  the the most amount in, you put 100% in. Your life's going to
• 1:03:55
  change dramatically in one year. But those previous years of
• 1:04:00
  sales were not even like, 50% effort. It was just like
• 1:04:04
  chugging along, hoping that somebody was going to come and
• 1:04:07
  save me, hoping that somebody was like, going to come and pull
• 1:04:10
  me out and say, Oh, it's all right. We'll give you this big,
• 1:04:13
  fancy career. You'll be fine. Doesn't happen like, you've got
• 1:04:17
  to put the work in, and then the rest will follow
• 1:04:22
  mark ackers: a phrase that I really like, and I feel like
• 1:04:24
  you're saying this in a much better way. But to summarize is,
• 1:04:27
  if you're looking for motivation, it's not going to
• 1:04:30
  happen. Action comes first, and then I use this analogy, which
• 1:04:34
  doesn't work when you look at me. Fortunately, the camera's up
• 1:04:36
  here, but it's like going to the gym. The hardest part is going,
• 1:04:42
  but when you're there, you're right when you leave, you never
• 1:04:45
  regret it, but you need to take that action for that motivation.
• 1:04:48
  And it feels like there was a key moment in your career where
• 1:04:52
  you decided, I've got to take action, and that's what's led to
• 1:04:55
  the to the motivation.
• 1:04:58
  Jack Frimston: Yeah, I think it like at six.
• 1:05:00
  Dean, you're allowed to say, Oh, my life's not fair. Oh, this is
• 1:05:03
  happening, that this is happening. Blah shit at 30, get
• 1:05:08
  a grip. Like, like, you can't just be Oh, I never get the
• 1:05:11
  promotions. Oh, nobody ever like, wants me to be the like
• 1:05:15
  it, even if it's not like, your fault, it's your responsibility.
• 1:05:19
  And I think, like once that mindset like shifted in me, and
• 1:05:24
  I realized like, oh shit, life is like, life is so short, like
• 1:05:29
  no one's coming to save me. I might not have that long. I
• 1:05:32
  better do something with this thing. So I was waiting to ask
• 1:05:38
  this question, and I was starting to think we might not
• 1:05:40
  get onto it, this obsession with death.
• 1:05:44
  mark ackers: Is that just your way of standing out on LinkedIn,
• 1:05:47
  or is that a
• 1:05:48
  Jack Frimston: real thing? People say this like, oh, you
• 1:05:50
  built a personal brand about death. It's like, I've not, I've
• 1:05:52
  not invented death. People know that, right? Like, I've covered,
• 1:05:55
  yeah. It's like, it was there before me and it'll be there
• 1:05:58
  after me. But I think it's like, I think there's too much like,
• 1:06:03
  airy fairy hippy shit about like, like mindset and life
• 1:06:07
  like, like, I just think it's like, what's the flip?
• 1:06:11
  Everyone's like when
• 1:06:13
  I, when I spent some time in the monastery, like, I read loads
• 1:06:16
  and loads and loads of books about death and like, I just use
• 1:06:19
  it as, like, a constant reminder I was telling you earlier.
• 1:06:21
  Obviously, like my my watch says, Remember you will die.
• 1:06:23
  I've got a necklace on that says, Remember you'll die, but I
• 1:06:26
  just use it as little motivated, so that if I come off a call and
• 1:06:30
  it's shit, big deal like the fridge broker, I got a call the
• 1:06:34
  other day from my partner, the fridge is broke, and I just All
• 1:06:37
  right, well, we'll just get someone out to fix it. And she
• 1:06:39
  was frustrated about it. And it's like, it's frustrating, but
• 1:06:42
  I'm not going to waste any energy on it, because one day
• 1:06:46
  I'm going to be on my deathbed. Do you think when I look back at
• 1:06:48
  all the traumas in my life, I'm going to be thinking about a
• 1:06:50
  fridge that broke? Like, no, like, so it's like, it's not
• 1:06:53
  saying don't give a shit about anything, because there are
• 1:06:56
  obviously things that are worth, like, caring about, but I think
• 1:07:00
  in the long run, like the and this is why, like, I'm so
• 1:07:03
  passionate about like, do what suits you. Like, do what, what
• 1:07:07
  makes you happy, what makes you content, follow your dreams,
• 1:07:09
  because one day you'll all be dead. And like, none of it
• 1:07:12
  matters. And like, really think about, like, speaking to my mum
• 1:07:15
  about this this morning. It's like, so we've got like, photos
• 1:07:19
  now of like my mom and then her mom, but then you only go back a
• 1:07:23
  few, like, a few generations. You're like, I don't really care
• 1:07:26
  who they are. I don't know who they are. I don't have any
• 1:07:28
  memories attached to them. It's not long before me and you are
• 1:07:32
  going to be long forgotten about. And maybe there'll be a
• 1:07:35
  distant memory, like when, when our names muttered one one more
• 1:07:38
  time to your great, great, great, great grandkids. Or maybe
• 1:07:41
  someone's like, find a podcast from you. And they like, they're
• 1:07:43
  like, Oh, this is brilliant. This is how they used to sell in
• 1:07:46
  the Do you know what I mean, like that, that'd be amazing.
• 1:07:49
  But the chances are, think about how many people have come before
• 1:07:52
  us and we've forgotten about and we move on. It's like life is
• 1:07:57
  just so bloody short. We're all going to be dead soon. Like
• 1:08:01
  people are running around, panicking about stuff that just
• 1:08:04
  doesn't matter. And I think that's what I'm passionate
• 1:08:07
  about. And like, if I can get one other person and have that
• 1:08:11
  ripple effect, like, It's a Wonderful Life is is like that?
• 1:08:14
  If you, if you can get one other person to say, yeah, he's right.
• 1:08:18
  Like, What? What? What books does he read? Right? I'm gonna
• 1:08:20
  go and read. Those are my mindset is different. Well, then
• 1:08:23
  that might have another knock on effect someone else in the
• 1:08:25
  world. And it's, it's, hopefully, it's that kind of you
• 1:08:28
  might not be remembered, but your impact might ripple through
• 1:08:32
  and you, we don't know,
• 1:08:35
  mark ackers: everything you say that resonates with me and have
• 1:08:38
  similar thoughts myself, like I heard a phrase a long time ago,
• 1:08:41
  and it was like, at some point in the future, it'd be the last
• 1:08:45
  time you've ever spoken about, hmm. And I just thought, wow,
• 1:08:47
  you're right. And like, you say, obviously that, but at some
• 1:08:50
  point you will never be spoken about or thought about ever
• 1:08:53
  again.
• 1:08:55
  And then you again. Just the other example that I play
• 1:08:58
  through my mind every November, you know, wear my Poppy. And I
• 1:09:02
  think I wonder when that'll stop. And people always go,
• 1:09:05
  never. And I'm like, I don't think you appreciate deep time.
• 1:09:09
  Like, and I do this exercise people I go, like, give me a
• 1:09:12
  date that's really far in the future. And they go like, Oh,
• 1:09:15
  2050 I'm like, yeah, that's my point. You, you know, you're not
• 1:09:18
  thinking in deep time. I think, and I always say, like, World
• 1:09:22
  War One, World War Two, really important to us, and probably
• 1:09:26
  for the rest of our lives, we'll remember it. But there comes a
• 1:09:29
  point. You know, there was loads of battles and wars before that
• 1:09:32
  that we never think about ever, and it's like it's such an
• 1:09:37
  interesting thing to con i Don't remind myself of it enough, but
• 1:09:40
  I can see why when you really think about, like, non trivial
• 1:09:44
  things, and will you think about that in the future? Really,
• 1:09:47
  really interesting. And I could spend ages of you on that, and I
• 1:09:51
  think I don't have it changed for you, but it changed me when
• 1:09:53
  I become a parent. I No one. No one likes the idea of death, and
• 1:09:58
  it freaks them out. But having children.
• 1:10:00
  Jack Frimston: Shouldn't change my perception of death. I felt
• 1:10:02
  more comfortable with it, which is mad, because I want to be
• 1:10:05
  here longer than ever, because I've got two kids now. But did
• 1:10:08
  that change you at all? Haven't having a child, it's it's so
• 1:10:12
  it's one of the happiest things, like we were talking about this
• 1:10:14
  last week, but like, it's amazing. Having children is,
• 1:10:17
  like the the best thing ever. I absolutely love it with that
• 1:10:20
  comes a deep sadness when you when you say hello to somebody,
• 1:10:23
  eventually you'll have to say goodbye and fingers crossed. In
• 1:10:27
  my lifetime, it's me like, obviously, that there are awful
• 1:10:30
  things that happen that the stoics used to meditate, and
• 1:10:33
  they used to go into the child's room. This is like how crazy
• 1:10:36
  they were 1000s of years ago. But they'd like, sit there, over
• 1:10:39
  the over the baby, and they go, they'd meditate on if the baby
• 1:10:42
  didn't make it to the morning, which is crazy, but, like, it
• 1:10:45
  makes sense just to make the most of that moment, hopefully.
• 1:10:49
  Like, it's me that goes first, and I live to 90 and I get to
• 1:10:52
  see great, great grandkids. Like, it'd be incredible, but
• 1:10:55
  like, one day I'll have to say goodbye, and that is hard, and
• 1:10:59
  that and that comes like, that is grief, isn't it? Like, it's
• 1:11:03
  like you love people, and you get to experience the good
• 1:11:06
  things, and then with that comes the sadness. But that is just,
• 1:11:10
  life is black and white. There are, there are kind of no areas
• 1:11:13
  of it's not black and white. Sorry. Anyway, you know what I'm
• 1:11:17
  trying to say? Yeah, it's amazing, but it's also hard, but
• 1:11:22
  it just it does, like it's the complete opposite of death,
• 1:11:26
  yeah.
• 1:11:28
  So speaking of saying goodbye, we're getting towards the end of
• 1:11:31
  our podcast. Tell us more about wham, the problems you solve and
• 1:11:36
  why people should I mean, we know why we should listen out
• 1:11:39
  for the podcast. Got Chris Voss coming, right? But give it. Give
• 1:11:41
  WAM a little plug to those listening that might not have
• 1:11:43
  heard of wham before. Yeah, so we, we've got two now that. So
• 1:11:47
  you mentioned earlier, like a sales consult and WAM. So like
• 1:11:50
  WAM is we have a meeting, and it does what it says on the tin,
• 1:11:54
  like we get you meetings, like we we focus on top of the
• 1:11:59
  funnel, like so many people want to be sitting down with people
• 1:12:03
  that like fit their ICP and they're like their dream
• 1:12:06
  clients, but they don't have the capacity, they don't have the
• 1:12:10
  knowledge, they have the systems, they don't have, they
• 1:12:13
  don't have the team. They don't have the grind or the hustle to
• 1:12:17
  actually sit down and just say, You know what? I'm going to put
• 1:12:19
  in a full shift. I'm just going to ring people, I'm going to
• 1:12:22
  have conversations. I'm going to build that awareness. I'm going
• 1:12:24
  to find people have the problems, see if they're
• 1:12:26
  motivated, then I'm going to book it in the diary. We do that
• 1:12:29
  for you. We become an extension of your team. We we just book
• 1:12:33
  those meetings in for you. So we work with a variety of different
• 1:12:36
  clients on that side. As as we grew, we have a meeting, we
• 1:12:39
  found that there's capacity for, okay, what happens next? So we
• 1:12:43
  were sitting with people that say, Well, I sit with them, but
• 1:12:46
  my conversion rate's probably not as high as I want it to be.
• 1:12:48
  So maybe that's from like, a training standpoint, or like,
• 1:12:51
  more more more consultancy like, these are your blind spots. This
• 1:12:54
  is like, you've not got you've not got sales, you've not got
• 1:12:57
  any CRM system in place. Of course, that's why you've like,
• 1:13:01
  these are the areas like, it's, it's easy, like, like we were
• 1:13:04
  speaking about earlier, the stuff that we know now we know.
• 1:13:09
  But there are people that are in business that don't necessarily
• 1:13:13
  know the stuff that we know now. So it's like, how do we
• 1:13:16
  implement that, and how do we make change for that?
• 1:13:20
  mark ackers: So yeah, they're the two businesses that we do.
• 1:13:22
  And people can find you on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn talking
• 1:13:25
  about death. And it sounds like you might be on Tiktok.
• 1:13:29
  I think we are on Tiktok. Yeah, we do the odd Tiktok. We're
• 1:13:32
  trying to get more Tiktok. I'm trying to be down with it this
• 1:13:35
  year. So you don't have a personal Tiktok. I do, but
• 1:13:39
  that's my scroll in hand. Understand, we do have a YouTube
• 1:13:43
  channel. Does the tailor made have a Tiktok the tailor made?
• 1:13:47
  No, they were long gone before Tiktok was existed.
• 1:13:50
  Unfortunately, fair enough. Um, Jack, I've, I've loved having
• 1:13:55
  you on the podcast. You've been so transparent, so open. We
• 1:13:58
  We've definitely, I feel like gone through a roller coaster
• 1:14:00
  that we've had, like, some funny moments. We've had some
• 1:14:03
  difficult moments. Got really deep there talk about death,
• 1:14:06
  like, it's definitely been
• 1:14:08
  a great a great interview. As far as I'm concerned, I've
• 1:14:12
  really enjoyed listening to you. I'm grateful for you traveling
• 1:14:15
  up from Manchester. What incredible effort. And can't
• 1:14:19
  wait to hear the podcast with Chris Voss. Thanks so much for
• 1:14:21
  coming on. Thank you.
• 1:14:25
  Unknown: You.