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Matthew Chapter 16 Q&A: Bible Study by Atheists · Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists

0:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so why is it like shocking?
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I just like, you gotta be more original.
0:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what we're doing today?
0:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so we just did our Q&A over 14 and 15 of Matthew.
0:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Which would mean, since we have two Q&As that we're doing, that today we're doing.
0:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Our Q&A part two covering Little Matty chapter 16.
0:30
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's do this.
0:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, don't get it.
0:39
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we are hopping into our Q&A, covering little Maddie chapter 16.
0:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
0:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you recall, chapter 16 was where we decided that we're so done with Jesus and we hate him.
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, last chapter, he was racist.
0:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And this chapter, we were late.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You're better.
1:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You're worse.
1:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:04
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it is.
1:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I see how people can twist this into something good, but like reading through it.
1:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It just does not sound good at all.
1:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not for me dog.
1:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a no-for-it.
1:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So just blatantly whatever.
1:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll discuss as we go along.
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So this chapter marks a major structural shift which we noted.
1:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a very different from previous chapters.
1:30
[SPEAKER_00]: To the point that I had to look up was this chapter written at a different time entirely or by different people or something and apparently not scholars don't seem to think so, okay, all right, just is Matthew was like, okay, we've done this and now we're doing that it feels like though they shifted gear like whoever was writing this shifted gears as to this was.
1:54
[SPEAKER_01]: information pre, like without the knowledge of Jesus' resurrection, now we're going into something different.
2:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, many scholars actually do divide the Book of Matthew into two parts.
2:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
2:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And the first half is who is Jesus?
2:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Second half is how will these Jesus die?
2:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And like we jumped right into that and I'm like, oh, okay.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: This chapter is the hinge.
2:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
2:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And we noticed it.
2:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yay us.
2:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
2:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And now they're creating a prophecy in the same book that we're going to get the prophecy.
2:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, this is just really weird.
2:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so bad.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Very badly done.
2:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, up till now, Matthew, and when I say Matthew, of course, I mean Matthew, his team, Matthew, et al, whatever, has mostly been showing Jesus like actively doing stuff like miracles, debates, teachings, parables, like interacting, either with the people, with his disciples, or with the Pharisees, et cetera, right?
2:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, this chapter, the narrative pivots towards Jerusalem and Jesus' death.
3:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he starts talking about, okay, this is how I'm going to go.
3:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to get real now.
3:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
3:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was very weird.
3:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So the chapter opens with the Sadducees and the Pharisees demanding a sign from Jesus.
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, again, right?
3:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
3:22
[SPEAKER_01]: How many times we gotta do this?
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus responds, dudes, my guys, you can read the weather, but you can't read the signs of the times.
3:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I started singing Harry Styles.
3:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great, right?
3:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's appropriate.
3:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
3:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically what he was saying is you know how to interpret ordinary events, but you're missing what's happening right in fucking front of you.
3:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And
3:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Our argument would be, yeah, but that shit was happening whether you were there or not.
3:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Because magic was on every street corner.
3:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Politics was politics again and profits were profiting.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they've kind of done themselves a disservice by announcing that those things were commonplace in this book.
4:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they don't hide that fact.
4:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, and and it look I don't believe that there was miracles in every corner I don't believe that this shit was actually happening but regardless people at that time believe that that was the case There were grifters and there were people profiting off of that and there were people who believed in it And there were things that people don't understand happening right so between all of those it was
4:30
[SPEAKER_00]: all pop and off.
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus took advantage of that.
4:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, the wedding, why can't you pick me?
4:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuckers.
4:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And the answer is because you're just not special except for your really weird.
4:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's not be Jewish stuff.
4:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
4:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that makes you weird, but that makes you stand out in a way that we as Jewish people do not fucking like.
4:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
4:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
4:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Always not on your side, guy.
4:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We want no part of that.
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
5:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So the religious leaders keep asking for proof and Jesus is like you're standing on the middle of the proof.
5:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Jesus like starts going off like he's like John the Baptist appeared.
5:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The crowds are following me around the flock into me.
5:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Healing's are happening.
5:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You've seen those.
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We've done those.
5:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Exorcisms.
5:22
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got rid of demons.
5:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because those are real.
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
5:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And people come back to life.
5:28
[SPEAKER_00]: The kingdom of God is being preached and you're standing right in the middle and they're like, yeah, uh-huh.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like everybody else is doing great.
5:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, you're not special and as a matter of fact, you're dangerous.
5:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Go away.
5:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
5:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So then Jesus says something that made me and you go what?
5:50
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, no sign will be given except the sign of Jonah.
5:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was weird.
5:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that even mean?
5:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
5:57
[SPEAKER_00]: That Jonah wasn't a sign.
5:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Jonah was a story.
6:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, what?
6:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But this makes me, like I've heard, Jonathan, he's been brought up in apocalyptic current day prophecy things people say and I I kind of wondered about that and has must tie it in somehow.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It it does but not satisfactorily.
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It it's not like real good.
6:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
6:21
[SPEAKER_00]: This phrase does appear several times in the gospels and Matthew later is going to explain.
6:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So we will see what he means when we get there, but basically it comes down to the fact that Jonah spent three days in a fish and likewise, Jesus will spend three days in a tomb.
6:41
[SPEAKER_00]: There it is.
6:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's that's the connection.
6:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, apparently Jonah's time in the whale is supposed to force shadow Jesus's time in the tomb because three and no way whatsoever right and it's like there's so much
6:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, when Bible scholars look at Jonah, it's not seen as a literal event.
7:06
[SPEAKER_01]: It's seen as a fucking story.
7:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a story.
7:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Other time when the Israelites had been shatter some other covered, like, spread to the winds.
7:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Jonah was sent, supposedly, to go try and get this one city to redeem itself, and so it was a story that was meant to try to bring all of the exiled Jews in all of the various places together.
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And to make them remember their heritage as one people regardless of where they may live, and don't forget your,
7:45
[SPEAKER_01]: your Jewish ancestry and you know be we are a people we are one well and you could you could maybe sell the whole Jonah connection to me a little bit better if Jesus was more of a reluctant prophet as opposed to like a fucking salesman.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a goddamn salesman.
8:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He is, he's a Trumpy grifter.
8:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
8:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I'm not, I'm not for him.
8:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is one of Matthew's favorite literary techniques.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And he does this all through the book of Matthew.
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
8:14
[SPEAKER_00]: He will find something in Jewish scriptures, something random, like a one-off, or just something that's just like,
8:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, random.
8:23
[SPEAKER_01]: They're throwing a prophecy spaghetti at the wall.
8:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he will reinterpret it as secretly pointing to Jesus, because it's convenient.
8:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's how this whole world now operates.
8:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
8:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like people take anything and associate it with Jesus and God and religion and whatever.
8:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, no, how did you make that fucking leap?
8:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, where do you what?
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, exactly.
8:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the same shit.
8:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So most modern scholars pretty much agree that this is Matthew reading Jesus' death backward into the Jonah story.
8:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no kidding, we even knew that.
9:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially given that this was written after Jesus' death, right, they're trying to find some sort of a solace in that their leader died, you know?
9:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, how does this make sense?
9:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's connect it to this.
9:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's connect it to that, you know?
9:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, it makes me happy that you and I, as again, neither scholars nor academics, we could see this easily.
9:22
[SPEAKER_00]: That means it's not that difficult to discern that that's what's happening.
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And scholars are like, yep, good job, guys.
9:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Which makes me happy.
9:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I love it when our thoughts are confirmed by my studies.
9:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the book of Jonah is actually not predicting a future Messiah just to put it out there.
9:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing, then let's just be clear.
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing in the Old Testament is predicting a future Messiah.
9:48
[SPEAKER_01]: There are, let me, let me strike that back.
9:50
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a couple of points where there is something reference to a future Messiah.
9:54
[SPEAKER_00]: but they meant like in the next day or year.
9:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Generally, but nothing specific and nothing that points towards Jesus at all.
10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
10:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So other than if you want to interpret him and unless you backfill like they're doing.
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, exactly.
10:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what the story is.
10:12
[SPEAKER_00]: This whole thing and it just makes me mad because it's not even trying that hard.
10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So then we get to the part where Jesus tells his buddies don't forget the Levin or whatever he used to be.
10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: He caught the disciples to be where a false teachings.
10:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were like, what the fuck is that about?
10:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is he talking about yeast and bread again and Peter's like,
10:39
[SPEAKER_01]: We forgot the bread why I said at the time like they they equated used to spreading so like they're worried about the message from the Pharisees spreading further and don't let that idea in fact you guys you know whatever that's but Peter is always portrayed as a dumb dumb sure so he thought he took it literally and Jesus was like your fucking thick bro
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so our question was, why do the disciples keep forgetting about the fucking bread?
11:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, he has literally fed them the masses twice now with like pocket bread, you know?
11:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, here's why he does that because the story requires him too.
11:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
11:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Convenience.
11:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: For the story.
11:25
[SPEAKER_01]: For the the fiction that is being written.
11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: He did it for the gram, you know.
11:29
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
11:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, every time Jesus mentions bread or yeast, my guy's panic, touchy gang is like, oh, what are we going to do?
11:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And.
11:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though by now he's fed 5,000.
11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: He's fed 4,000.
11:46
[SPEAKER_00]: He's walk on water.
11:47
[SPEAKER_00]: He's hill countless people.
11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: He's brought them back to life.
11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: He's performing miracles blah blah blah blah blah.
11:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: They're always like, oh no.
11:53
[SPEAKER_00]: What a dilemma.
11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, we have a get out of this.
11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's intentional.
11:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It's.
11:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It's intentional, but it also, like if you're reading this from a skeptical point of view, it takes away from the legitimacy of the story because you're not, you can no longer at that point of actually read it in a, this actually happened mine.
12:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't take it seriously because that's stupid.
12:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, you have to at that point, at least at the very least, interpret it as a metaphor for things that they're trying to describe.
12:24
[SPEAKER_00]: artistic license.
12:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm okay with that if people could admit that.
12:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah and let's not pretend this really happened.
12:33
[SPEAKER_00]: That's silly because that's not what will happen.
12:37
[SPEAKER_00]: The story isn't trying to portray them a smart which we obviously picked up on.
12:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Matthew has no problem making them out
12:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, he is actually in fact trying to portray them as slow learners and this serve several purposes, which will be obvious to you.
12:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they were obvious to us at the time.
12:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:00
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes Jesus the smartest guy in every room at all times.
13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
13:04
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows he has all the answers.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows everything.
13:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the one that has to explain it.
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the master, right?
13:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he is the son of God.
13:11
[SPEAKER_01]: He is.
13:12
[SPEAKER_01]: He has to have all the answers, right?
13:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a good reminder, right?
13:16
[SPEAKER_00]: This is common ancient literary technique that's used multiple times.
13:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody around you is dumb that way you're automatically smart.
13:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
13:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Make them stand out.
13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Another point is that it makes the disciples relatable to readers at the time.
13:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
13:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Not to us because we're like y'all too dumb.
13:40
[SPEAKER_00]: The audience is supposed to think, oh, I probably would have missed that too, but we've all gone to school and had some English classes at this point.
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So we understand literary references and we understand parables and we understand, um,
14:00
[SPEAKER_01]: morals and we understand analogies like these are all terms we learn taking taking yourself outside out of our current time period right and going back 2000 years when there was the when there weren't printing presses there weren't
14:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, formal education as well as the, this is done today, you know, these things didn't exist in any real structured manner.
14:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're talking to people who are a little bit thick, you know, and so the relatability factor makes sense for that time for it does.
14:31
[SPEAKER_00]: It does, but here, you know, counterpoint, it doesn't make sense for the word of God.
14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: to last 2000 years that I'm supposed to believe is divine and flawless.
14:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:50
[SPEAKER_00]: If that was true, it would not be like this because we have progressed, we have learned things.
14:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's not even a calendar of the fact that it's been translated thousands upon thousands of times into and out of different languages and cultures and everything else and culminating
15:11
[SPEAKER_01]: to the point where at this point, we often don't even know what certain words mean, and what messages and God's message be clear, if we can't even know all of the messages, it needs an update.
15:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, from God preferably so that it makes sense for our world that's here today.
15:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, but God failed.
15:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if I am to believe that there is a God, a magical, higher power being who is all-knowing, infallible, et cetera, you're doing a bad job of making me believe that because you're making this interpret it through goat herders, points of view.
15:58
[SPEAKER_00]: 2000-year-old goat herders.
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
16:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not relevant to today.
16:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:05
[SPEAKER_00]: these things are not correct.
16:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So, that's just another reminder that if there is a God, y'all weigh in it.
16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I tend to believe there isn't one, but... Oh, I definitely believe there isn't one.
16:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's no tendency in about it.
16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, I'm here to say that we can have the other discussions about all the other gods
16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: you all weigh in it.
16:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
16:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: He sucks.
16:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So the third point is that it creates teaching opportunities to present them as dumbdums.
16:44
[SPEAKER_00]: If the disciples understood everything immediately, then Jesus wouldn't have anyone to explain things to.
16:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's audience benefit.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
16:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Which that's the most obvious reason that we've pointed out at the time.
16:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'll also
16:58
[SPEAKER_00]: because people are thick, and also because it gives pastors lots of material every Sunday they can do a different one.
17:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, if you didn't like this bread handing out, you can use the other one.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: or you can make a lesson out of the fact that he does a twice and why, and what's the difference?
17:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, I can write an essay on all of that.
17:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it can't be difficult.
17:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
17:26
[SPEAKER_01]: But the things that we're missing, like I have gone to church, right?
17:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's the thing that I have done.
17:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I went with friends when I was younger.
17:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We went for a while when we were first married.
17:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there was like, that we've told that story before.
17:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like we weren't religious, but we went.
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: and our pastor knew that we weren't religious, you know, and, but I've never heard anybody to the point that we do it, ask the questions that need to be asked.
17:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
17:54
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, it's very much a sales pitch any time you go to a church.
17:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
17:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's different types of sales pitches like that church that we went to when we were married when we are married.
18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry,
18:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That was closest to anything that I would have taken as something that I could have been okay with.
18:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it was more about teaching, about Jewish life, and Jewish history.
18:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That past was very much about history, and it was really, it was a great learning experience for us with regard to what Christianity is, and that's the closest I've come to being intrigued by a church.
18:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And he also treated our questions.
18:45
[SPEAKER_00]: respectively.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: He was not put out that we were atheists and he was not put out.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't feel threatened.
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: What we were like, I don't understand this.
18:57
[SPEAKER_00]: This doesn't make sense.
18:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't, I can't buy this.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And he wasn't threatened by that.
19:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, he's a great guy.
19:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Spoiler, he turned into an atheist himself.
19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: not because of us.
19:12
[SPEAKER_00]: He was just too smart, I think.
19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we met up years later after we went to his church and we found out through, through somebody else.
19:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a great thing.
19:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Could be great find that he had turned atheist.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: We were like, what?
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to talk to him.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And we didn't meet up with, we wanted to do an interview at some point, but we haven't had a chant.
19:23
[SPEAKER_01]: We're really bad at doing interviews.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Not the interview itself, but like planning getting it all worked out.
19:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, his life was kind of in a shambles at the moment too, because I think one of his daughters was getting married, one of his daughters was graduating from high school and they were buying a new house.
19:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, some like all of those things were happening at the same time.
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we just haven't hooked up since then.
19:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
19:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And this was a couple of years ago.
19:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're just bad at follow through in interviews.
19:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, maybe some decade.
20:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:01
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so moving on, we get Peter's confession and Peter or Jesus asked the disciples to tell him, what are they saying around town and he's like, what's going on?
20:17
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the hot goss?
20:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Who are they saying is the one?
20:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
20:20
[SPEAKER_00]: and so our question is why was Jesus asking for the local gossip was he like being a pick me girl right like are they talking about me or they saying it's me and that's what I've literally thought yeah honestly but it wasn't about that okay um he pretty much already knew what people were saying and he was setting up the guys to have them um
20:50
[SPEAKER_00]: publicly commit.
20:52
[SPEAKER_00]: He's basically telling them, what are they saying?
20:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, now, what do you say?
20:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
20:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's saying it's time for you to choose aside.
21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been following me.
21:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You've seen all I can do.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I've given you powers to do it yourself.
21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's time for you to actually say the words.
21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, make the verbal commitment here and now.
21:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But here and now to my face, who do you think is the one?
21:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, when they were discussing, like, okay, this part bothered me because they're,
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a like you said, he's trying to get them to commit.
21:34
[SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to get them to whatever, but they hadn't been telling quote unquote anybody that he was the son of God, right?
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But they all apparently knew it and you would think that these people closest to him would would be very much on board without question, if they actually did believe like the fact that he's having to ask for a
21:58
[SPEAKER_01]: still sounds very cultish and unsure of whether or not he is the son of God because they obviously know that he has some things that are just normal that he's not he's not doing all these crazy things that they're talking about.
22:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Well it also strikes me as another instance of audience benefit like he is intentionally pushing them to meet the announcement
22:26
[SPEAKER_00]: so that they're on record in front of each other and to his face and for the readers.
22:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
22:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's annoying.
22:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
22:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It is.
22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, that's, that's not necessary, sir.
22:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially given all of the things that they claim that he has done.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We should without question, believe that these people already are bought at.
22:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Except that, again, everybody was doing this shit, except for the fucking amount of stuff.
22:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, no, the other stuff, the bring people back from the dead and the healing of the, you know, ailments and diseases and exercising demons.
23:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Apparently that show was happening all over the place.
23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to really need him to take a sword and take down a war elephant.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And then not get squished by it.
23:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
23:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That was that would be the one right there.
23:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That was that guy from macabees.
23:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, side note though, this all happened in this town called Sassirai Philope.
23:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember I had a hard time?
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I still have a hard time.
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that's correct.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is where Peter's confession happens this town.
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
23:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a fascinating location.
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
23:43
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not Jerusalem.
23:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even a particularly Jewish city where this happens.
23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: actually a center for Greek religion, Roman imperial cult worship, and the god Pian.
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like the least Jewish place possible is where Jesus confronts them and says, okay, here in you're not surrounded by Jewish people,
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: um there's nobody here for you to be like oh let me go talk to my brother i'm not sure right let me go i'm gonna go talk to my mom and dad about this yeah like you you can't you're surrounded by everybody around you doesn't believe
24:31
[SPEAKER_01]: There's an aspect to this where it feels like maybe Jesus takes them out of their comfort zone so that they feel more tied to him.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
24:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
24:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's part of this growth that they did is like if you go to these foreign places and see the way the faith worship that is very foreign to you.
24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Very different.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Then that cultish, familyish behavior that they want to solidify within this Jesus cult becomes even more solid.
24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like how the trauma bond works.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, just they've all experienced these things together.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And sure.
25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It further solidifies their relationship.
25:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
25:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, seals the cultiness of it.
25:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So there were temples all over the place in the city and some scholars think that Matthew intentionally placed Peter's declaration here because it creates that dramatic contrast that I said and it's a city full of competing gods not just one god like it's not just that it's the great god.
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not just that it's the Roman.
25:36
[SPEAKER_01]: They've got a fuck ton of good.
25:38
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got gods on every street corner just like where we bend, there were angels and demons on every street right?
25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
25:46
[SPEAKER_00]: in front surrounded by all of these competing gods, Peter tells Jesus, you're the true one.
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the true God.
25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And that makes it that much more meaningful and important in the story.
26:01
[SPEAKER_00]: For us, I'm like, I see what you did there.
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but it, I mean, it does have the over time.
26:09
[SPEAKER_01]: the effect of losing some of that meaning to us because obviously we don't know that without digging in and finding out.
26:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And also because we know how cults work now because again Google and we can learn and understand that that was a tactic, whereas they wouldn't have known that at the time.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't honestly, it doesn't help build their case either.
26:30
[SPEAKER_01]: No, really.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, it makes it more a case for Grifters going to griff.
26:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Grifters understand how to lead people and how to gain fellowship.
26:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
26:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
26:44
[SPEAKER_00]: we get Peter's confession, and then Jesus compliments Peter for his bold and correct declaration.
26:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
26:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, you are so Peter.
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You Peter are the Peteriest Peter that ever is rock.
26:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, your Peter means rock.
27:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
27:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Because because Peter is the rock that the church was built on, it's a pun on upon.
27:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a word and it's a word game with words.
27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to make sure we say that there.
27:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So after Peter's confession, Jesus says, you are Peter and upon this rock, I will build my church.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this verse in and of itself has launched nearly 2,000 years of argument.
27:27
[SPEAKER_00]: The Catholic interpretation is that Peter is the rock, Jesus is establishing Peter as the leader of the church, and this becomes the basis for people authority.
27:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
27:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a small fucking bit to basement.
27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I forgot him.
27:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Our structure.
27:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Jesus, like, said it straight though.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to argue with.
27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want that to be your basis, it's hard to argue since he said it straight.
27:56
[SPEAKER_00]: You are Peter and upon this rock, I will build my heart.
28:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But there's so many ways you could interpret that.
28:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You could interpret it as the the faith and devotion that he has given to Jesus is the what he's building the church on.
28:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can tell me that like you could take that in so many different ways and to to say this is why we have this specific power structure and we're going to base it all on this fucking line here from the new testament is a little shaky.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on a month of the things.
28:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Not sure then, they thought it was real solid.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Solid as a rock.
28:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Solid.
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the Catholic interpretation.
28:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And I see where they got it.
28:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I sure.
28:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: The Protestant interpretation is that Peter's confession is the rock, not Peter himself.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of where I was going with it.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But.
28:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But regardless, there's some Greek word play here because as you point it out, the word Peter means rock.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
28:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And the word rock is also Petra.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And so basically what he's saying is, oh, rock, you're my rock.
29:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a rock rock.
29:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And that would hurt on the rock.
29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is the rock in the rock.
29:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:09
[SPEAKER_00]: The rock is he's like, oh, Rocky, you're so rock.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And wait, that would have been funny to them.
29:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
29:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was clever, clever email, right?
29:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's clever, we're play.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
29:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I love me a good literary pun.
29:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not good as far as like holding up over time.
29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even a good dad joke, but I'm like, ah, I see what you did there.
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear my rock.
29:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
29:36
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so here's another side note, okay?
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So we just talked about that town, and then we talked about the rock, okay?
29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Then we had the gates of heaties.
29:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were like, what the fuck?
29:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it says, the gates of heaties shall not prevail against it.
29:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were like, what does that even mean?
29:56
[SPEAKER_00]: What is happening here?
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And why are we invoking a different religion?
30:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
30:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And the new test of it.
30:03
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so weird.
30:05
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so not Jewish.
30:07
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so like, and we're off.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Integrated you go.
30:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you ever know prior to reading this that Hades actually enters into the New Testament?
30:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea that such a Greek term would be utilized by
30:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Jews breaking away from Christianity to form, or I'm sorry, Jews breaking away from Judaism to form their new Christian sect.
30:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no idea.
30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, yeah.
30:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't actually mean what a lot of people think it means.
30:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
30:44
[SPEAKER_00]: How could it?
30:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, okay.
30:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So many modern Christians interpret this as hell won't defeat the church.
30:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, because you know the gates will hold it back.
30:55
[SPEAKER_01]: The gates of heaven will hold it back like the gates of Hades, but you're invoking Hades, which is specifically not Christian.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the argument is that gates are defensive structures like gates don't attack.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: The gates weren't ever going to
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: get it.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Get you.
31:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are you talking about here?
31:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
31:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Some scholars argue that the image is actually death itself because remember to, um, to Christians, hatey's means hell, right, but to the Greeks, hatey's was just the dead.
31:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
31:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
31:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Like not like you're punished for your sins.
31:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just the land of the dead.
31:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
31:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So the dead will not be able to even come into the kingdom of heaven.
31:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
31:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The church is going to advance even against death.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where we get our afterlife stuff from, not merely defending itself.
32:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so instead of action, so it could just be a reference of defeating death basically.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
32:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It is interesting, but I still hate it.
32:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, no, I hate it, but it's interesting.
32:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what's interesting is that the Christians think it's one thing, but it's actually even more aggressive than what they think it is.
32:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're thinking that death can't even ruin heaven.
32:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, no, no, actually what it means is that heaven is like heaven is going to hold back.
32:37
[SPEAKER_00]: hell and the afterlife and the undead, like we're say you're like even hell can get in because hell is big and but they can't though and we're like right but furthermore heaven is the biggest baddest mother fucker out there and heaven is going to king.
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So like
32:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't even understand the phrase to be able to use it to their fullest.
33:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to attract.
33:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, oh, I understood that better than you did.
33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You still have Christians.
33:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, once I look.
33:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, there's so many ways you can interpret shit.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I will bet.
33:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I even, even with.
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: all the research that we do.
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to pretend like we have the best interpretation of anybody out there, like sure that we don't.
33:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's interesting to see all these different variations on how we could interpret the Bible in a multitude of different ways through all these different slightly different interpretations that you can take from it.
33:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it's no
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: just confusing to me why people are so unwilling to ask questions when there are so many questions to be asked.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, because there really are, like, it's a trove of fucking questions is what the Bible is.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And it could be so much interest, like it could be so much more interesting.
34:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:04
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're just all, like, learn together and ask questions.
34:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, think of all of the questions we're not even thinking to ask.
34:12
[SPEAKER_01]: If you started from a position of faith, right?
34:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, well, let's just, I'm just gonna pretend Christian here for a second, right?
34:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be here in Christian.
34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Christian is a Christian, go.
34:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Only for a minute.
34:26
[SPEAKER_01]: But you would start from a position of faith, right?
34:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then allow yourselves to,
34:33
[SPEAKER_01]: question the things and learn what your faith means through these things as you interpret them to the best of your ability because wouldn't you as a good Christian wouldn't it be incumbent upon you to learn God's word to the best of your ability?
34:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but Jesus said, don't ask any questions, get in the water.
34:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not asking questions.
34:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not asking questions other than I'm trying to understand.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not asking questions about anything other than what is written
35:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm still trying to understand.
35:05
[SPEAKER_00]: No, just getting the car.
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what Jesus is saying.
35:08
[SPEAKER_01]: He's why I'm not a Christian.
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
35:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
35:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
35:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on now, there are reasons for this.
35:13
[SPEAKER_00]: No questions.
35:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Then I'm out.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, yeah.
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
35:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's another side note.
35:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I love these side notes.
35:18
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not like, these side notes are not like from the scripture itself.
35:23
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just like historical little tidbits that make it more real.
35:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's what this city was about.
35:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the meaning of this word, which lends more, you know what I mean?
35:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so this is the first time that Matthew uses the word church.
35:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's a big deal.
35:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
35:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Because
35:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we haven't used that before.
36:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, because it's for temple with the Jews and you know, this, right, synagogue and okay church.
36:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Church, so now we have a church.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
36:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there's some meaning behind the word church or something that is significant maybe.
36:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it comes from the Greek word, ecclesia.
36:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure I mispronounced that apologies.
36:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
36:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Which means an assembly, a gathering or a congregation.
36:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, which attracts that's kind of what a church is.
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: People would now say that it means a tall fancy building with stained glass windows and a pipe organ But no, it's actually just a gathering of people sure.
36:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay
36:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, an interesting wrinkle here is that Jesus lived decades before Christianity existed as a separate religion.
36:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
36:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so many scholars suspect that the use of this term reflects concerns of Matthew's later community, rather than the exact wording of the historical Jesus.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: When Matthew uses the word church on this rock, my church will be built.
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
37:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
37:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Jesus probably did not use that term.
37:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm betting that a lot of the terms that Jesus used, quote unquote, we're not actually used.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But that would have been one of them, just so just so we know.
37:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
37:23
[SPEAKER_00]: that what I just said there is very controversial in a lot of churches, because they want to believe that Jesus was all about churchy church church, but he wouldn't have known that word.
37:36
[SPEAKER_00]: This is also a very common scholarly observation, apparently.
37:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So I felt like it was really important to bring that side note to the table, because it's fun when I can say
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, but let's get back to chapter 16, okay?
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: So once Peter identifies Jesus as Messiah, Matthew immediately Matthew et all the writers begins steering relentlessly like at a breakneck speed toward Jerusalem, okay?
38:12
[SPEAKER_00]: The pace changes, the themes change, the mood changes, and the miracles are gonna become less important than his destiny.
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not gonna see a lot of the miracles anymore.
38:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this is going to be about, basically, he's going to do a good job.
38:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is going to be about his death story.
38:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, um, that let's not forget going forward that this chapter was where it all changed, which is why this made a really decent stopping point.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, um, when I grew to these chapters, sure.
38:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize that's what this stopping point was.
38:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
38:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It was suggested that this was a stopping point.
38:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we know why.
38:51
[SPEAKER_00]: it is the hinge.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
38:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
38:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So after that, Jesus foretells his dust, right?
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, my guys, I'm going to suffer.
39:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to fucking suck and I'm going to hate it.
39:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I'm gonna die.
39:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And immediately Peter's like don't talk like that.
39:15
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
39:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
39:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And then Jesus is like fucking region asshole.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Get behind me Satan.
39:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
39:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And we were like what the fuck you just said he's the rock.
39:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna build your church on.
39:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
39:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you're saying he's Satan.
39:28
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck?
39:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We were so confused.
39:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was the quickest turnaround.
39:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: you've been promoted to admiral and then two seconds later, get out of here.
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: You're an ensign now.
39:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
39:42
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck?
39:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
39:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So our question was, why did Jesus react like that and call him Satan?
39:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it did seem quite out of place.
39:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It was weird.
39:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
39:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It was really fucking weird.
39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
39:55
[SPEAKER_00]: This is one of the funniest reversals that we're going to see in all of the gospels.
40:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
40:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's good that we stop to be like, what the fuck?
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
40:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened was Peter hears Jesus say, I'm going to Jerusalem to suffer and die.
40:13
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the thing that's gonna happen.
40:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Peter's like, no, you're not done.
40:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Peter thinks that this is like encouragement, like he's with his buddy, his teacher, his guy he loves.
40:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I took it as a very human reaction to him saying, you know, like that's definitely something that almost anybody would say.
40:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure.
40:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But to Jesus,
40:34
[SPEAKER_00]: putting aside what we think actually happened or not, okay, in the story in Canon to Jesus, this is temptation, because we're supposed to recall back in chapter four, Satan had offered Jesus a path that avoided suffering.
40:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but look, he got offered by the devil three times, right.
40:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And all three times, and all three times, he's like, mad dude, I'm good.
41:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
41:02
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, it wasn't any big deal.
41:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But now he's getting closer to it and he's developed relationships, right?
41:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So Peter accidentally offered the same thing, like unknowingly.
41:12
[SPEAKER_00]: He's speaking the same words that Satan spoke.
41:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And now Jesus is further along and he's like, no, fuck you for saying that, get behind me, Satan, like, no.
41:24
[SPEAKER_00]: He,
41:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter is inadvertently the voice of temptation and where it is like in the beginning it was easy to turn it down Right now he's being tempted again and it's a little bit harder It's still not hard, but it's a little bit harder because he is further along in his journey And he has developed the relationship and the following sure he's he's in trouble now more
41:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So he has more stake and the temptation would be greater, right?
41:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And especially coming from somebody he loves, right?
41:59
[SPEAKER_00]: That he literally just said, you're my rock.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then his rock tempted him, like my hand.
42:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus is like, bro, right now you're speaking the devil's agenda and I'm not having it.
42:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And when he says you're a stumbling block, what he means
42:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I need a minute because you're stepping in the way of what I believe I must do.
42:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Chan, this is gonna be harder than I thought it was.
42:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what Jesus is telling Peter.
42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
42:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I buy all of that?
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that conversation actually happened that way?
42:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that Jesus is like, get behind me Satan?
42:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that there is a Satan?
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that Satan tempted him?
42:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I think that there's this parallel to be drawn in the first place?
42:55
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
42:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's what we're supposed to as readers take from that story.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
43:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm still skeptical.
43:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
43:08
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
43:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus declares his expectation that his followers are going to follow him by dying.
43:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And he teaches them the necessity of self-denial.
43:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:24
[SPEAKER_01]: They're supposed to die too.
43:26
[SPEAKER_00]: They're gonna die in spirit, okay?
43:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gonna be rough.
43:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're gonna have to make some choices now that they have committed.
43:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
43:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, so he teaches them that they're gonna have to go through some self-denial, like he just did.
43:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
43:45
[SPEAKER_00]: We get the paradox of the cross, finding life by losing it.
43:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus speaks of a future judgment to come.
43:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
43:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we get to see a promise of the son of man coming into his own kingdom.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
44:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then that wraps up the chapter.
44:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, whoa, this like escalated quickly and like what even are we signed up for here.
44:12
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been, I mean, it's been a whirlwind, right?
44:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we get like he was born and then.
44:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Boom, he's fucking fully grown and being baptized by John the Baptist, right?
44:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we get five minutes of story.
44:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then we get a litany of fucking miracles that he's doing, John the Baptist loses his head, and then Jesus's promoted to like head, whatever guy kind of like he gains more of a following, and it seemed like at that point.
44:40
[SPEAKER_01]: He's becoming more popular once John the Baptist is out of the picture, and then now we're just like, and now we're prophesizing his own death, and we're marching towards that whole story.
44:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, wow.
44:55
[SPEAKER_01]: This is, there is no development here.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
44:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And then this and then this and then this.
45:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and we, we commented not in early.
45:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all prophecy stuff and it's all just like, promise it's creating.
45:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, they, they obviously have this Jesus story myth that they had built over the years since Jesus had died and to some sort of a structure of types, right?
45:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're laying it out in the best way that they think they can't.
45:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're doing it in a very,
45:24
[SPEAKER_01]: digestible quick manner like it's not it's not overly written with it's it's very concise yeah like they're like this happened this happened this happened this happened that happened
45:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I still want to know what happened to his missing childhood.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
45:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that would be some great reading.
45:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly.
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: No, and that's why we talked about that book, Lamb.
45:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember the album.
45:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Christopher Moore.
45:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And like that kind of covers all of that in a funny, fun way.
45:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Tongue and cheek, the whole time.
45:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a really great, fun book.
46:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so good.
46:02
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, one more side note.
46:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
46:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
46:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
46:05
[SPEAKER_00]: In this chapter, we see the Pharisees and the Sadducees came up against Jesus.
46:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They teamed up.
46:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They teamed up.
46:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was kind of weird because them teaming up doesn't happen because historically these groups disagreed on a lot.
46:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
46:23
[SPEAKER_00]: The Sadducees were temple elites, wealthy aristocrats, conservative about scripture, and they didn't believe in resurrection.
46:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The Pharisees were more populist, they accepted oral traditions, they believed in resurrection, and they were more influential among ordinary people.
46:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
46:44
[SPEAKER_00]: They're closer to what we see in Judaism today.
46:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They are not enemies in the modern sense, but they did represent
46:54
[SPEAKER_00]: different factions, which we've talked about before, Matthew often combines them into a single opposition block, and refers to them like as the same bad guys, because his focus is the illogical rather than political, and so sometimes we don't know which ones he's actually talking
47:23
[SPEAKER_00]: but sometimes there might not be the Pharisees, sometimes there might be the Sadducees.
47:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Especially since the who they're talking to, like the Jesus followers are talking to a very people of the streets type, move anyway so that people that they would know would be the Pharisees.
47:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
47:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you're talking about not Jewish, you'd be, and you say Pharisees, they're going to understand immediately.
47:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
47:46
[SPEAKER_01]: What you're saying?
47:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
47:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just an easy, short, short hand.
47:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Short hand.
47:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
47:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but it is important for us, you and I and our listeners to know that Pharisees weren't always Pharisees.
47:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes they were actually the aristocrats, the Sadducees.
48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
48:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Oftentimes when he says Pharisees, probably the Sadducees are part of that criticism as well.
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.
48:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But in this chapter, they were like teamed up against Jesus.
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is why I wanted to make sure we understand that distinction.
48:19
[SPEAKER_00]: A modern day analogy might be something along the lines of the Democrats and Republicans both hate this one guy enough to sit at the same table.
48:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
48:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he on Musk or John Peterman.
48:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
48:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean the Republicans hate him because he's a Democrat peer at the end, but the Democrats don't want him either.
48:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
48:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like actually guys we all agree on this one thing.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: for different reasons.
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah.
48:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is the Q&A over a little Matty chapter 16.
48:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you have anything else to add?
48:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
48:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I said most of what I wanted to say throughout.
48:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a good good chapter covered a lot of stuff.
49:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do want to say this before we get out of here.
49:06
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're listening to this when it comes out.
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: um we do have our live discord tonight at 10 p.m.e.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s
49:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, even pop in for the first hour and just chat, you know, like that's that's kind of one of those fun things a lot of our people in our regular on discord pop in and out, you know, throughout the early section and then come and say hi or Peace out when we start reading.
49:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
49:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They just come to say hello.
49:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
49:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not worth you're worried about not being caught up or something like that.
49:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't.
49:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
49:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're listening to this now.
49:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
49:57
[SPEAKER_01]: if you're listening to it today, then you're caught up, but don't feel like you have to be.
50:02
[SPEAKER_00]: But you don't have to be.
50:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
50:04
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
50:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's all we got.
50:06
[SPEAKER_01]: That was Matthew chapters their chapter, 16 Q and A.
50:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure's book by.
50:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And we will be back tomorrow with our live and we'll be reading Little Maddie chapter 17.
50:17
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
50:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you then.