Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E8: Pornography: What’s the Big Deal? with Matt Fradd

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E8: Pornography: What’s the Big Deal? with Matt Fradd · The Lila Rose Show

0:01
Hello everyone, welcome to the Lila Rose Show.
0:04
This is Lila Rose and I'm really looking forward to today's
0:07
episode because it is the first interview I will have done with
0:12
this podcast and I will be having a very special guest on
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today who I think you will all find really fascinating, really
0:20
interesting and have has some really useful information for
0:23
us. I'm delighted to welcome Matt
0:26
Fradd to the show. Matt is a best selling author of
0:30
several books and one of them includes the topic of today's
0:34
episode, which is pornography. So it's a tough topic.
0:37
It's a sensitive topic, but it's one that I think is really
0:40
important to talk about, which is what I love doing.
0:43
Going and talking about things that might be tough or
0:45
difficult, but are really important and can, if we do take
0:48
the time to talk about them and think about them and learn about
0:52
them, can really make huge differences in our lives or
0:55
benefit the lives of those around us.
0:57
So Matt Frad is not only an author, best selling author
1:00
speaker, but he's also a podcast host himself and he has a
1:04
YouTube show called The Matt Frad Show.
1:06
Matt, thank you so much for joining the program.
1:08
Really been looking forward to this.
1:10
I am super pumped. Yes, I'm Jazz.
1:13
Thank you for having me. You are obviously, I think, from
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Australia. Yes, I am from Australia.
1:20
I was born and raised there. I met my wife, we were doing
1:23
missionary work in Ireland of all places and she was American.
1:26
And so we got married back in 2006 and we currently live in
1:31
Georgia. Wow, so in Irish woman and an
1:35
Australian man go and live in Georgia.
1:37
Well. Yeah, we, we met in Ireland.
1:40
She's a she's an American. Oh, she's American, OK.
1:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of confusing.
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I'm Australian, she's American. We met in Ireland and now we
1:47
live here in Georgia and we love it.
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What accents do your kids have? Well, they all sound.
1:53
They all sound very American. I think it's large based large
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upon where you're being raised. And how?
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Wait, how long have you been in Georgia for?
2:02
Just four years, five years prior to that we were in San
2:05
Diego. OK, California.
2:07
Nice. Well I'm talking to you from Los
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Angeles. So this is a california-based
2:12
show. You should.
2:13
You should move back out. Yes, well, if I could have No, I
2:16
wouldn't want to. No, there you go.
2:18
How how abrasive was that? No, I wouldn't want to.
2:20
I'm so happy to be in the South. I like the price of my house.
2:25
I like the non crowdedness and the well, I mean there's some
2:28
political craziness but not as much as in California.
2:31
No, not as much as in California.
2:33
And you've also got really great biscuits and gravy, right?
2:36
Yes, which I choose not to eat, but I'm I've been told that
2:39
they're lovely. Good, very good.
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Well, we're here to talk about something that you have been
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talking about for years, and you have been, I think you've
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traveled the entire world. You've spoken in countries
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across the world. You've spoken all over the
2:51
United States on this topic, and of course, it's pornography.
2:55
So what I'm hoping to do is really just unpack this with
2:59
you. And first of all, why did you,
3:02
how did you get interested in this topic?
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What's your background on it? If you could have told me when I
3:08
was 16 years old that I would one day be traveling America
3:11
talking about pornography, I would have asked you what drugs
3:14
you were on and if you wouldn't mind sharing any.
3:16
You know, but this is something I was exposed to early in life.
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I had a close friend who I would stay with, you know, a couple of
3:25
times a month at his house and on a sleepover, and his parent
3:29
would buy us pornography. And so pornography is very much
3:32
part of my life throughout my teenage years.
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And it wasn't until around the age of 17 that I decided that I
3:38
would like to try and quit this thing and.
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How old were you when when that was happening, you were hanging
3:44
out at your friend's house and the the dad was buying porn for
3:48
you guys. Well, believe it or not, it was
3:49
the mom and oh, wow. Yeah.
3:52
So I was about 13 years old. And it's an unfortunate story.
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She she would take us out, rent us pornographic material, hard
4:01
liquor, all this stuff sounds like.
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Child abuse. Yeah, Yeah, it was.
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And so sorry. I've, I've since, thank you.
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I've since reconciled with this person, asking her to ask my
4:12
forgiveness. And she did.
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She's a beautiful woman, a good woman in many ways, but had
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bought into the lie that pornography was somehow healthy.
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Wow. As many, many of us have.
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So I I carried that. You know, I see even now the
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temptations in my heart that I still feel it's not nearly as
4:27
strong as it once was. But I'm not stupid enough to
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think that I'm impervious to a temptation to pornography.
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Anyway, I began to find a significant degree of healing
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into the first couple of years of our marriage and became very
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excited about sharing this good news with other men and women.
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And so, yeah, I've been speaking and writing on this topic now
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for over 10 years. It's just something I'm very
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passionate about. At the time, not many people
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were speaking about it. So yeah, that's just how it
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happened by by accident, I guess.
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But it's also just a holy discontent of mine when I
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encounter men or women who are being held back by pornography,
5:00
whose relationships are being destroyed by it.
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I can't stand it. Sort of like perhaps how you
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feel with abortion and what that does to people.
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And so for that reason, I'm very motivated to help others.
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That's that. That's awesome.
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So when it comes to porn, I mean, I, I've been looking,
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there's been a whole series of articles The Atlantic has done
5:20
on sex and the decline of sexual relationships in the United
5:25
States. Young people having less sex
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because there's less intimacy, less connection.
5:29
People are unhappy, people are more, less happy now, you know,
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spikes and suicide rates and depression and anxiety.
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But one thing I've also noticed is it appears that pornography
5:39
use is actually increasing. So people seem to be having less
5:43
sex with each other, but they're actually using more porn.
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How big of an issue is porn really, would you say here in
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the US and beyond? How much is it being used?
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Can you speak to that? Yeah, I'd say with the advent of
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the Internet, pornography became accessible, affordable and
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anonymous in a way that it had never been before.
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So we call those the 3A's that the Internet brought about.
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You know, prior to the Internet, you still, you know, you had to
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pay some money perhaps unless you were stealing it, you had to
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face down a clerk at least. So it wasn't anonymous and it
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wasn't accessible in the way that it is today.
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Many of us walk around with portable X-rated movie theaters
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potentially in our pockets. And so for that use, porn has
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obviously skyrocketed. And you, just you, you mean you
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can even tell just sort of anecdotally as you listen to the
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conversations people have about this issue, how it's addressed
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on mainstream television, that this is a gigantic, gigantic
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issue. Wherever I speak, I speak to
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about 50,000 people a year on this topic.
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High schools, colleges, you know, it's, it's, it's, we all
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get it. I mean, porn feels good.
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It's it. It makes sense that it would be
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a drug of choice, but it leads to terrible things and is itself
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a terrible thing, so. Share more on that.
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I remember I was a student at UCLA here in here in Los
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Angeles, and there was this class on the 1st Amendment and
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they actually had a pornographer come and give this little speech
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about how, you know, body parts are beautiful.
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You know, like the human body is beautiful, which, you know, I'm
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a Catholic and I know you're a Catholic.
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And as Catholics, you know, God created the body as beautiful
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and good and holy. Christ was incarnated as a body,
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as a human. He's human as well as fully God
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and fully man. So the body is good.
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It's fundamentally good. Sex is good.
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So talk us through why from a moral perspective, as well as
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maybe other issues connected to addiction or other health
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issues, why pornography use when it's around, you know, basically
7:46
enjoying the body in a way, why it is actually harmful, why it's
7:51
bad, what what the harm is. Great question.
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It's precisely because the body is good that we shouldn't
7:56
exploit it. So the problem with porn isn't
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sex, it's not sexual desire and it's not nudity.
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So as Christians, we believe that the first commandment God
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gave to humanity is to be found in Genesis chapter one, verse
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28. And in that verse he says be
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fruitful and multiply. And as Peter Craft once quipped,
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I do not think by that he meant invent calculators, you know,
8:17
multiply and and just grow grapefruit or something, you
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know, no, he meant have sex and have babies.
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So sex is God's idea, the, you know, orgasm, beautiful thing,
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God's idea, breasts, testicles, right.
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It's all good and it's precisely because it's good that it can be
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made bad. It's only if something's very
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beautiful can it be made very ugly.
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You can't make ugly things ugly. You can't make trash ugly.
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You can maybe make mud ugly, but as you kind of climb up the
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chain, the more beautiful something becomes, the more ugly
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it can be made. I So I think it's an argument of
8:49
sorts because sex can be made ugly, so ugly that it must at
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least potentially it can be so beautiful.
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Sexual desire is good, right? Lack of sexual desire is not a
9:00
sign of holiness, it's a sign of death.
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I guess the body is good, right? It's been said the problem with
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pornography is not that it shows too much, but that it shows too
9:09
little. Because what pornography?
9:12
Explain that because it's, you know, the body is good, sex is
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good. We know these things.
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I think that they're very intuitive unless there's shame
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around sex innately. But it's this idea of the misuse
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of sex. So what is the and why is it
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that there is this proper use of sex?
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How do we know that? And then why is it that porn is
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is bad and harmful to that? Yeah, so I think you can answer
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the question why is porn bad from 2 basic angles. 1 You could
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say it's wrong in and of itself, or you could argue that it's
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wrong because of the negative consequence that almost always
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ensue when you engage in it. Now as a Christian, and I'm
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presuming this is a Christian show, is it?
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Am I free to speak as a Christian?
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You are absolutely free to speak as a Christian.
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We have a very diverse audience. So we have atheists who listen,
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we have circular folks, We have different religions.
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Well, I'll offer, I'll offer some philosophical premises to
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kind of. Round those out.
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Both ways are great, both arguments.
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Yeah. So when you look at something
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like gambling, right, you might say, well, gamblings can be
10:08
wrong, OK, why can it be wrong or unhealthy?
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You might say, well, can it lead to marital breakdown?
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It can lead to addiction, you know, and you might say it's
10:17
wrong because of the consequences that result from
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it. And you want to say what is
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pornography like that? Is it wrong because it too can
10:23
lead to marital breakdown that can lead to addiction and so
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forth? Or is it wrong because of what
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it is? Now I argue that prime
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principally, it's wrong because of what it is.
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And what I mean by that is if it's true that the human person
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is a good towards which the only proper and adequate attitude is
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love, and if love entails wanting the good of the other
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for their sake, then I think exploiting another person for
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selfish gratification is disordered.
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Sex clearly has a purpose, just like eating, right?
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The the the purpose of eating is nutrition.
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It's not. It's not taste, it's not
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pleasure. Those are perhaps motivators or
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consequences of eating, but the purpose of eating, biologically
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speaking, is nutrition. Likewise, you know, sex has a
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teleology, it has an end associated with it, and we know
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at least 2 ends, right? One would be an openness to
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life, the other would be the good of the two coming together.
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So to thwart one of those ends deliberately or even
11:27
accidentally I suppose, would in a way be to pervert the ACT.
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So like if I ate and then made myself throw up, that's like a
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perversion of eating. Now, I'm not speaking to the
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culpability of that. I'm just saying that's clearly a
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disordered thing. Likewise, pornography is
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disordered because you don't have the unitive aspect, you
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don't have the openness to life aspect, and someone is always
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being exploited. That would be the basic
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argument. Explain that a little more
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because, you know, I hear arguments from a, you know, a
11:56
different worldview All in all together that says, you know,
11:59
set. It's like Teen Vogue recently
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tweeted sex work is real work, basically.
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I mean, it was pretty shocking because they're promoting
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basically prostitution to underage girls, which is there's
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no such thing as a prostitute as an underage girl that's actually
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a sex trafficked victim because you can't consent to sex when
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you're a child. But regardless, there's this
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argument that, you know, if you are a porn star or if you are,
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you know, an adult film actress, whatever you want to call it,
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you're it's your choice and you're empowered.
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And so yes, you're selling your body, so to speak, but you're
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not What's wrong with that would be would be their argument.
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Yeah. And I would say that just
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because somebody finds something empowering, it doesn't mean that
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they should. And that's a rather
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controversial viewpoint to hold today.
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Just because somebody finds something liberating or.
12:50
Or they think it's powering. They might feel that in the
12:52
short term. Right.
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It doesn't mean that it is. And we could all think of
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examples, you know, say from people who look down on races
13:00
different to their own, you know, who, who, who are racist
13:03
or who whatever sexist or misogynist, however you want to
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say it. You know, you might say, you
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know, to use an example, perhaps others would understand and say,
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well, just because somebody finds that empowering, it
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doesn't mean they're right to. And I would say that being cool
13:17
with being degraded doesn't make being degraded anymore cool.
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You know, there's this thing called Prada Willy Syndrome,
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which is a genetic disease, one of the results of which is this
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incredible appetite. OK, suppose you were to find
13:32
somebody with this disease and enter them into to a pie eating
13:35
contest so that others can watch them for their entertainment.
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I think we would all agree that there's something about that
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that's horrible, like that's degrading even if the person was
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OK with it because they were getting paid.
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And I think likewise, if somebody agrees to have sex with
13:49
strangers or not strangers for the sake of another and another
13:53
person's lust, to show what ought to be private publicly,
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that that if you agree that this is a degrading act, then just
14:01
because you're OK with it, doesn't it, that doesn't thereby
14:04
make it not degrading in a sense, if two people choose to
14:07
degrade each other in a way that's worse.
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Now, you might say, well, people don't agree with your premise.
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OK, well that's why if that's the case, I would lead with the
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scientific evidence that's been coming out of academia for the
14:20
last 40 years as to the negative consequences of pornography.
14:25
So even if you don't agree with me that pornography is
14:28
inherently degrading, we can still talk about why it's not a
14:31
good idea based on science. And, and I'd love to hear you
14:34
unpack that because I, I think that people can be persuaded
14:38
from either direction. I mean, I've seen people, you
14:41
know, friends and acquaintances, the conversations having, you
14:45
know, I've had over the years that sometimes it can start from
14:48
the moral perspective of, you know, that innate sense of wait,
14:51
sex is something really special, really intimate.
14:54
It's sacred actually, and I don't want to just have it with
14:58
some random person or watch some random person doing it in order
15:01
for the sake of just pleasure. But then, like you say, there's
15:04
also a whole world of evidence explaining the harm.
15:08
And, and, and also, you know, you talk to most women and I
15:13
think they don't feel comfortable with the idea of
15:16
their significant other, their their husband, or if they're,
15:20
you know, dating someone looking at other women.
15:23
I mean, that just is there's this innate revulsion for that
15:25
because we, I think, are made for fidelity.
15:28
We're made for we want monogamy. That's something that's very in
15:32
intimate to who we are as human beings.
15:35
But walk, walk us through what the what that research says
15:39
about the harm to porn. The harm of porn.
15:42
So as I said, I suppose it's been about 40 years now that
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we've been getting a lot of research, It's been coming out
15:48
of different branches of science, neuroscience,
15:50
psychology, sociology, and essentially all of it is saying
15:55
quite unambiguously that pornography is detrimental to
15:58
the consumer, to our relationships and to society as
16:01
a whole. So just to give one example,
16:03
there are currently 44 neuroscience based studies on
16:08
porn users. All of them add strong support
16:12
for the addiction model. There are over 70 studies that
16:16
correlate porn use to sexual dissatisfaction.
16:20
There are at least a dozen studies that I've seen that show
16:23
how porn use leads to things like erectile dysfunction,
16:28
premature ejaculation or sexual dysfunction in women such that
16:33
they might be making love to their husband or partner but
16:36
cannot climax due to how pornography is has affected
16:40
them. So there's, there's a ton of
16:42
studies that have come out. I read a book called the porn
16:44
Myth, which is a non religious response to pro porn arguments.
16:49
So even if you aren't religious or you know somebody who isn't,
16:51
you could read this book, give it to them.
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And I had about 35 pages in the back, I guess of bibliography
16:56
taken from, you know, these studies and experts in the
16:59
field. So I think if you're pro science
17:01
and pro love, that those are two good reasons to seriously
17:04
consider being anti porn. Wow and and that book is called
17:08
The Porn Myth. Yeah, the porn myth and also
17:11
100% of the royalty is going to help sex traffic victims.
17:14
So that's not even a plug so that I can make money.
17:16
I don't make a cent from the Burg, but yeah, it's on Audible,
17:18
it's on Amazon. That's awesome.
17:20
Yeah. I mean, I've come across a lot
17:22
of that research over the years. I know the porn myth is a huge
17:25
place to find that compiled and and share that more secular
17:29
case. So it's the non religious case
17:30
for the harm of porn use. There's another group I've heard
17:34
called Fight the New Drug, which also shares a lot of that
17:38
scientific evidence, so to speak, about how porn is
17:42
effectively a drug that's harmful as far as the, the risks
17:46
of porn to the person. So there's the, the users harm,
17:51
right? You, you mentioned their harm to
17:53
their, you know, body sexual function, harm to their
17:56
relationships. It's addictive.
17:58
Could you talk a little more about the addiction element?
18:00
Because I find that really fascinating.
18:02
I, I talk to people and, and you know, about porn use and it, the
18:06
question sometimes becomes, well, if someone just uses porn
18:09
occasionally, they look at porn occasionally.
18:12
Let's say you know, someone's dating with someone and they
18:15
find out, oh shoot, my boyfriend is occasionally looking at porn
18:19
and but they're they're, are they addicted?
18:21
You know, how big of a problem is that?
18:23
What are your thoughts on that? Right.
18:25
So first of all, you know, we, we, we touched upon this in the
18:28
beginning that I think you can argue that pornography is
18:30
intrinsically disordered and ought never to be used, that
18:32
it's not like gambling that you can use, you know, infrequently
18:37
and it not have any serious deleterious consequences in your
18:39
life. My argument is that even if
18:41
somebody is using software pornography infrequently, that
18:45
it's always an intrinsically disordered thing and and
18:48
something to be ashamed of. Actually, we don't like talking
18:53
about shame, but shame isn't always something to be
18:55
eradicated. It might be a sign that the
18:57
behaviour we're engaging in, we ought to stop.
19:01
But let us let's talk a little bit about addiction.
19:03
We used to think, neuroscientists used to think
19:05
that in order for something to be addictive, it had to be a
19:08
substance that you brought into your body in some way.
19:10
But since neuroscience, neuroscientists started looking
19:14
into the brain, that's changed how we understand addiction.
19:17
We now know that behaviours can be just as addictive as
19:20
substances can. So the, the APA put out, you
19:24
know, the DSM 5 right now has pathological gambling as a
19:27
legitimate addiction. And yet nothing of course is
19:29
ingested or anything like that. So behaviours can can have a
19:35
similar effect on our brains as substances can.
19:37
And so there's a there's a neurotransmitter in the brain,
19:41
which we're all hearing about more and more now called
19:43
dopamine. And dopamine plays a key role in
19:46
the pleasure reward centers of the brain.
19:49
It's what incentivizes us to perform actions that are
19:52
conducive to our survival and our genes.
19:56
But what we're discovering is that when 1 engages in
20:00
pornography, the brain eventually ceases to feel
20:04
dopamine's effects as it once did.
20:07
And so that's why the person who views pornography with any
20:10
irregularity will find that they have to now watch more porn and
20:14
more deviant forms of porn just to get the same high that they
20:19
did in the beginning. I mean, have you ever asked
20:21
yourself, like, why? Why can't they just be vanilla,
20:23
quote UN quote, vanilla porn out there, like softcore kind of
20:26
porn? Like, why can't that satisfy us?
20:27
Now, I'm not saying that it should, obviously, I think
20:29
that's wrong. But why is it that people spiral
20:32
into these weird fetishes we've unfortunately all heard about?
20:36
Well, it's precisely because of what pawn does to the brain.
20:39
As the person is in the state of addiction, ceases to feel
20:43
dopamine defects, they have to up the ante, as it were, to feel
20:48
the same rush that they did in the beginning.
20:50
So an analogy would be when you reset a thermostat in a house,
20:54
the whole system may have to work a whole lot harder to
20:57
create a new normal. Likewise, when one becomes
20:59
addicted to pornography, something similar is happening.
21:02
They, they, they, they've reset the pleasure thermostat if you
21:06
want in their brain and now need more porn and more deviant forms
21:09
of it just to, just to feel normal.
21:12
Does that make sense? That's the beginning of an
21:13
explanation. Yes, of course, and it it makes
21:15
sense too, because the research I've seen these sort of, you
21:19
could say deviant porn searches, you know, even to the degree of
21:23
rape porn and beastiality and even child pornography.
21:28
I mean, those things are increasing and a lot of that, I
21:31
think it sounds, you know, is driven by addiction, people
21:34
needing to find increasingly intense and, and dark forms of
21:38
pornography to get that pleasure response that they're, they're
21:42
craving, which is, you know, so heartbreaking because these are
21:46
human beings, you know, people that and maybe people listening
21:49
either personally have experiences or they know people
21:53
who are, I mean, ultimately we're all just looking for love.
21:56
We're looking for happiness as human beings, but when we start
22:00
to consume something that is so harmful, even if it's like you
22:04
say that soft core porn and then it leads, it creates that
22:08
appetite for more. And then what happens?
22:10
What's happening is those personal unreal relationships.
22:13
You know, certainly even this idea of marriage, like sex made
22:17
for marriage, sex made for being open to life, to children.
22:20
I mean, that just gets thrown out the window because all of a
22:23
sudden we have this whole world of sexual experience that is
22:26
totally art with ourselves in a screen and but it's not actually
22:29
making us happy. It's actually hurting us and
22:31
it's leading us down the starker path.
22:33
So it really is, according to the research I've seen, just
22:36
becoming a bigger and bigger problem.
22:39
Yeah, no, indeed, one woman said it in a way that I'll never
22:42
forget. She said that she feels like
22:45
when she makes love to her husband who is addicted to porn,
22:48
that that he wasn't so much making love to her as he was
22:51
using her as a warm body to masturbate with.
22:54
So. Sad and, and when you hear
22:56
something that's shocking, I know that's very abrasive and I
22:58
apologize for this, you know, if that scandalized anyone, but
23:01
that kind of wakes you up and you, you go, Oh my gosh, like,
23:04
what am I doing with this beautiful gift of sexuality that
23:07
had been entrusted to me? And this isn't to shame anyone
23:10
or to make any men or women who are listening to this, who look
23:13
at pornography feel bad about themselves.
23:15
I think rather it's to kind of say, look, you're acting this
23:18
way. It's probably almost no, it is
23:20
coming from a woundedness in you.
23:22
And that it doesn't have to be that.
23:23
It doesn't have to be this way, right?
23:25
So you are not the bad things that you do, and it doesn't have
23:29
to be this way. Right.
23:30
And we're going to get to, in a few minutes, resources for
23:33
people who have been hurt by porn, people who are
23:36
experiencing addiction or experiencing a struggle in their
23:39
life with pornography. So we're going to talk about
23:41
that in a few minutes. I do want to ask you Matt, you
23:43
know, I, the first episode I did for this podcast was on dating
23:48
and I shared 6 principles for dating and I talked about a
23:51
principle of red flags. So if you see red flags in
23:53
someone you're dating to really pay attention to them.
23:56
And typically they're good reasons to not continue to date
23:59
because you know who the purpose of dating is?
24:01
Marriage I I think and I think that if it's not then you're
24:06
actually going to be unhappy and unsatisfied with dating.
24:08
It's going to be confusing for you.
24:10
So it's really about getting to know someone and discerning with
24:13
them as you grow as a person yourself if they're meant to be
24:16
a spouse for you. And so when it comes to
24:19
pornography, unfortunately there's so much porn out there
24:24
and so many people struggle with this addiction that in the
24:26
dating market you're going to have a lot of people who are
24:29
struggling with pornography. So my question to you is, and
24:32
you know, spoil I, I answered this question in my first
24:35
podcast and I basically said, look, if someone is struggling
24:37
with pornography, that's something that they need to
24:40
overcome before they get married.
24:41
So, you know, that would be a red flag and something
24:44
prohibitive before marriage. Don't go into a marriage with a
24:47
porn addiction with a porn habit.
24:49
What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I, I tend to agree.
24:53
I think we should distinguish between somebody who we might
24:56
say is in the clutches of pornography, that this is
24:58
something they've been viewing from a young age, that they view
25:01
with frequency, that there's been little to no healing in
25:05
their life, no signs of growth in this area.
25:08
All right. And then then say you've got the
25:10
person, the man or the woman who maybe was exposed to porn but is
25:13
doing everything that they can to live a porn free life, to
25:16
live well, right? So they use good software on
25:19
their computers, like Covenant Eyes.
25:21
Maybe they go see a therapist. They might be in an SA group or
25:24
something and maybe they find that once every six months they
25:28
slip up. You know, I think there's
25:29
obviously a big difference between those two people,
25:32
Someone in the clutches and then someone who's just sort of
25:34
sinning and, and neither are good.
25:37
But I would say if this person is in the clutches of it, you
25:40
absolutely should not date them. And that if the person is in the
25:45
other camp, then that's something that needs to be
25:47
discerned. And I think what a lot of women
25:50
especially find difficult is how to bring up this topic in a
25:53
dating relationship that. Was going to be my next
25:55
question. Like what, what are your, I
25:57
mean, I, I have, I have my own thoughts on that, but as a man
26:00
and somebody who has had that in your, in your history and in
26:03
something that you, you counsel, you've counseled thousands on
26:06
this. What what do you think is the
26:07
appropriate way to do that? I think I have really good
26:10
advice for women who want to know the truth about their
26:13
boyfriend or husband looking at this.
26:15
OK, so I think here's what we shouldn't do.
26:17
I don't think we should spring such a hot and difficult topic
26:20
on people in the moment. Because if I'm embarrassed about
26:24
something, or if you're embarrassed about something and
26:26
somebody asks you point blank whether or not you are engaging
26:30
in that thing you're tremendously embarrassed about,
26:33
there's going to be a good temptation and a good chance
26:36
that you'll just lie. OK, So like, do you look at
26:38
pornography? No.
26:39
Why would you ask that? And once you've said no, it's
26:43
maybe doubly as difficult to then admit not only do I look at
26:47
pornography, but I lied to you. So I'd say for your sake
26:53
listener, if you're trying to ascertain whether your boyfriend
26:55
or girlfriend struggles with this, you might say something
26:58
like, Hey, I was wondering if we could talk about some things
27:01
tomorrow. What kind of things?
27:03
Well, I'd rather bring it up tomorrow.
27:05
You know, it has to do with our sexual pasts and, and things we
27:08
might be struggling with now. I I'd rather not talk about it
27:11
now, but could we meet for coffee like tomorrow or
27:13
something? Or could we just meet somewhere
27:14
and chat about this? You know, you're then preparing
27:17
this person that they know that this is just going to be a
27:20
casual conversation and then they then they have kind of time
27:23
to process this. How will I say it?
27:25
And these sorts of things. I think that would be one way to
27:27
do it because I think the person is a lot less likely to lie.
27:30
Now, if this person is honest, I would reverence that I would
27:34
thank them. I, I would tell them that
27:36
you're, you're honoured that they chose to share this part of
27:39
their life that they're embarrassed about and that you
27:41
and that you'll, you will keep this confidential.
27:44
I think that's the first thing, because here's another kind of
27:46
tip. You know, like if, if a man,
27:49
let's say if a woman asks a man to share with porn and, and he
27:51
says yes and she freaks out, the chances of him having an ongoing
27:57
honest conversation about his porn use with her is now less
28:01
likely. Now it's, it's understandable
28:03
that someone should get angry about this, but it's also
28:06
understandable, human nature being what it is, that one
28:09
doesn't like being shouted at or be, you know, making one's loved
28:13
one feel terrible. So I would say as much as you
28:17
can thank them for this. You don't even have to kind of
28:20
make a decision then they're on the spot.
28:22
But you want to have open communication, I think is the
28:25
key. I don't think any woman out
28:26
there getting into a dating relationship would say I would
28:29
rather he hide this from me, right?
28:30
And so I think the best way to bring that about is to kind of
28:34
prepare them and then to kind of reverence what they're sharing.
28:38
Well, always and to treat anybody with respect, no matter
28:41
what. I mean, I think that's kind of
28:42
the foundation and and patience and kindness, dating or not
28:47
dating, whoever it is. But I, you know, I do wonder
28:50
too. I think what I've observed a lot
28:52
is there, there can tend to be, especially if you really are,
28:56
you know, really into the guy or if you're vice versa, you know,
28:58
into the girl. I, I do think, you know, porn
29:01
effects men more than women, but it certainly effects women,
29:04
certainly effects women as well as far as women having porn
29:08
habits or struggling with the, with it as a temptation.
29:12
But you know, I, I do think when one, one piece of advice I
29:16
received, this was years ago, I was at this talk and it was this
29:19
former head of a division of the FBI.
29:21
So this guy was doing, when he was on the sex crime unit.
29:25
So he was actually investigating, you know, crazy
29:28
sex crimes and, and crazy criminals.
29:31
And he found that pornography was often included in a lot of
29:35
the history of some of the top criminals.
29:37
You know, it was one of the coexisting addictions they had
29:40
there a lot of other addictions, maybe drug addictions or other
29:42
issues. But anyways, he had seven
29:44
daughters. And his advice, which was very
29:47
strong. I mean, this might sound extreme
29:48
to some, but I think there's a gem of truth in it as well.
29:51
His advice was get to know or get to learn about the sexual
29:57
history of someone before you go too deep with them in a
30:00
relationship. This obviously has to be done in
30:03
a respectful way. It has to be done in a way where
30:06
you're also willing to answer maybe their questions.
30:09
But you know, his basic, his basic, you know, advice there
30:13
was, you know, don't be madly in love, exclusive boyfriend,
30:16
girlfriend have dated for months or years.
30:18
And then then you're finally talking about sexual history and
30:21
finally, you know, learning about whether or not there's a
30:23
porn issue. What are your thoughts on that?
30:26
I mean, how soon is too soon to bring up the porn word with
30:29
someone you're starting to date? Yeah, it's a great question
30:32
because you don't want to invest a ton of time, like you already
30:35
mentioned, into someone only to discover they're engaging in
30:37
something that's going to make a relationship essentially
30:41
impossible or to make. Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
30:45
I suppose you know, it's not something you want to spring on
30:48
the first date, is it? But I think like at least.
30:51
You're like, I have 10 questions #1 how often are you?
30:54
Do you use porn and how often? Yeah, maybe not first date.
30:58
You turn to someone and say lock the door and you look at them.
31:01
Yeah, no, Yeah, it's a good point.
31:03
I mean, like, I share your view. I don't think people should date
31:07
unless they are in a place to be married.
31:09
Yeah, that's my personal opinion.
31:10
You can disagree with it, but I think you're just likely to
31:12
fornicate. If so, just don't do it.
31:15
And I think if you can, you should marry early.
31:17
Those would be my views so that if I begin to date somebody like
31:21
this should be a serious thing. Like this isn't just a fling.
31:24
This isn't just a trying each other out.
31:26
Right. Dating is not dating is not a
31:27
pastime. Dating is a serious relation.
31:30
I mean, friendship is for for anyone or everyone, right?
31:34
So that's different. But if you're romantically
31:36
developing a relationship and really going to that romantic
31:40
place with someone you're trying to discover, is this my life
31:43
partner? Is this my, is this my spouse?
31:46
You know, is this someone I want to be with forever?
31:47
And yeah, that's not something to play with it.
31:50
It's a serious matter. Now what do you think?
31:53
I, I would imagine when you begin having conversations like,
31:56
what is this, like, what are we doing here?
31:58
Like what's are we just messing around?
32:00
Or is this, you know, and obviously from your point of
32:02
view, hopefully the answer is no.
32:03
But you, you know, you're trying to figure out now if you're
32:05
dating this sort of person that shares the same values that you
32:08
do, then it I don't think it would be surprising to begin
32:12
talking about the future within a few, you know, I don't know,
32:16
weeks of seriously dating the person.
32:18
Like where is this going? What's you know?
32:20
And I think in that context, you can then begin to have some of
32:24
these more serious discussions. What do you think?
32:26
Right. No, I think that's fair.
32:27
And I think it also comes down to other principles.
32:30
But something you just mentioned, dating people with
32:32
who are like minded, who share your values, I think that's
32:35
really essential. Also having wise mentors in your
32:38
life who you can talk about, you know, these kind of personal
32:42
subjective prudential decisions. We know when to bring up certain
32:45
difficult topics. But I think a general rule of
32:47
thumb, which sounds like we both agree on is don't be dating
32:50
forever before. First of all, don't date
32:52
forever, period, because the purpose is marriage, not dating.
32:55
And then second of all, you know, don't be afraid to talk
32:59
about this and to bring it up, but do it in a way that's
33:03
respectful and not a big surprise.
33:05
Like suddenly you're having dinner and you're you're joking
33:07
about your favorite movies and all of a sudden you say and do
33:11
you look at porn, you know? And and, you know, maybe.
33:14
Depicted a little differently. Yes.
33:16
And I would say to anybody listening who wants to have this
33:18
conversation, you could you could use this podcast as a
33:22
springboard to this. Discussion.
33:24
Like it? I was listening to Lila's show
33:27
she had on some dude talking about pornography and.
33:29
I just thought. Yeah, and I just thought we
33:32
we've never talked about this. Like, I know it's awkward, but
33:34
but could we, you know, and you could even send them this
33:37
podcast perhaps like that could be like there's always news
33:40
coming out about pornography, at least in my.
33:42
World and for the, for the ladies listening, you know, one
33:44
thing I did, I dated all throughout my 20s before meeting
33:48
and marrying my wonderful husband Joe.
33:50
And for me, when I would date guys, you know, first of all,
33:54
they would be guys that shared my values.
33:56
And you know that I thought this is potential husband material
34:00
for starters, but, but we would be dating not too long before I
34:04
would try to bring up, or sometimes they even brought it
34:07
up, bring up sexual history and bring up basically my personal
34:11
standards for, for chastity, for purity, and also what I what I
34:15
believed in, what I was pursuing and also bringing up porn in
34:19
that context. So that's one other approach
34:22
where it's not just about porn, but it's about chastity, it's
34:24
about love, it's about what sex is made for.
34:27
And porn is part of that because, you know, porn violates
34:31
fidelity and it violates I, I believe it violates fidelity and
34:34
it violates, it would violate, violate fidelity in a marriage.
34:37
So that's one one approach you. Can to that to that point, I
34:41
would say that you know nobody. Nobody has a right to know, you
34:45
know, the sins of another in one sense.
34:48
But if you're about to be married or you're looking
34:50
towards marriage, I think it's a matter of truth and advertising.
34:53
So in that sense, I think you do.
34:54
I think justice demands that you do have a right, but I would say
34:57
that you don't have a right to the INS and outs of it, You
35:00
know? So there's one thing to say,
35:01
like, how often do you struggle with pornography and how long
35:04
has this been going on for? I think those are appropriate
35:06
questions, but I think asking like, what sort of things do you
35:09
watch and what websites do you go to exactly?
35:11
And I need you to send them to me or tell, tell, tell me the
35:14
the, the, the performer that you like.
35:16
I think these are inappropriate questions.
35:18
Agree and I think unnecessary. It's TMI.
35:21
It's, it's unnecessary and it'll also, yeah, just no good can
35:24
come from that. Yeah, I agree.
35:26
I agree. And I think again, it comes back
35:28
to this is not for the purpose of curiosity, some morbid
35:31
curiosity. Or to.
35:33
Shame somebody or to try to be holier than thou or whatever it
35:38
is. The purpose here is to get to
35:40
know someone and loving someone. Look it's loving to someone you
35:44
may be dating. If they are struggling with porn
35:47
to first of all, communicate that you think that pornography
35:51
use is going to be prohibitive for a healthy marriage.
35:54
And so that's not just for your future marriage with whomever
35:57
that may be, but that's a communication you're having with
35:59
them about their future and their marriage.
36:01
So I think ultimately having the conversation in a respectful way
36:05
in the in the context of the larger question of, you know,
36:09
sexuality and chastity and how, you know, sex is a gift of self
36:13
and it's meant to be faithful and fruitful in a marriage.
36:17
I think then it is actually loving.
36:20
You know, it's loving to talk about it and to and to share
36:24
what your your plans are and your expectations are and what
36:28
your your standards are for yourself as well As for others.
36:32
Indeed, couldn't agree more. So here's a question before we
36:35
get to resources, because again, folks listening, this may be a
36:38
struggle. Somebody listening has, it may
36:40
be a struggle, you know, someone really close to you, maybe
36:43
you're even married and it's a struggle that your spouse has.
36:46
I do want to talk about that in a moment, but I I wanted to talk
36:49
about one other flip side of the porn problem, which is not just
36:53
the harm to the user, so the person who is consuming
36:56
pornography, but the harm to the people who are involved in the
37:01
creation of pornography. And you, you actually, Matt just
37:05
mentioned that your book porn myths or the porn myth actually,
37:09
the proceeds go to help sex trafficking victims, which is
37:12
beautiful, which is awesome. Talk to us a little bit about
37:16
how the creation of porn, the porn industry, you know, despite
37:21
the claims of some that you know, porn stars are so
37:24
empowered and so happy all the time, how in fact it is fueled
37:27
by very sadly, sex trafficking. Right.
37:33
Yeah. So I have worked alongside with
37:36
women who have been in the sex industry.
37:38
I've heard their stories. You know, my wife and I have
37:40
been out to dinner with friends who've been in the porn
37:42
industry. I have known people who have
37:46
produced for Playboy. OK.
37:48
The stories that the women especially tell me are drearily
37:52
predictable. They almost always involve some
37:56
serious form of abuse or neglect when the girl was young.
38:01
They involve this girl unsuccessfully trying to process
38:04
that trauma. And then one of two things seem
38:07
to happen. She's either preyed upon by the
38:09
sex industry in a direct way, or she feels like she has no other
38:13
choice. And if one feels like they have
38:15
no choice, then we're using choice only in a demented sense
38:19
of the word. If we were to say that she chose
38:21
this, I think we like the illusion that women in the porn
38:26
industry just love sex. I mean, this, this is really all
38:28
part of the fantasy. Like realizing that this person
38:31
had been sexually abused as a girl isn't really conducive,
38:35
hopefully right to to becoming more sexually aroused.
38:37
But when you listen to their stories, this is indeed what we
38:39
tend to find. So just to give a few examples,
38:41
Pamela Anderson, the Playboy Bunny of the 90s, only recently
38:44
came out and talked about her sexual abuse as a kid.
38:48
Jenna Jameson, who is perhaps the most popular porn performer.
38:52
I don't say porn star, I say performer.
38:54
She in her best, you know, her New York Times best selling book
38:57
talked about being gang raped in high school.
38:59
Bella Knox, who made headlines recently a few years back now
39:04
about being, you know, the the porn performer from Duke
39:06
University. And she told us how liberating
39:08
she found it. She only recently quietly left
39:11
the industry and talked about having been sexually abused,
39:13
raped, how she was a cutter, and these sorts of things.
39:17
So the stories are bloody predictable and they're
39:20
incredibly sad. And I think there's probably a
39:24
willingness on the part of those who wish to view porn to buy
39:27
into the narrative that Pornhub and others want to spin, but
39:32
that it's factually incorrect. And but suppose, suppose you
39:38
say, well, okay, that might be true of some women, but it can't
39:41
be true of all. Well, even if that's the case, I
39:44
think as a man, right, I think that it's a manly thing to treat
39:48
a woman who has forgotten her dignity with dignity
39:51
nonetheless. And so that my standard for
39:54
manhood isn't not raping someone, right?
39:57
Because this is essentially what it amounts to.
39:59
Like, it's not like I'm, it's not like I'm raping anyone.
40:02
Well, congratulate blood elations, but surely there's
40:05
more to being a man than not raping people.
40:08
So I again would say that again, it's a manly thing or a virtuous
40:12
thing. To treat someone who has
40:14
forgotten their dignity with dignity nonetheless.
40:15
Now, how do we define sex trafficking?
40:18
Well, sex trafficking is defined as a sexual act that is brought
40:23
about by force, fraud or coercion.
40:26
And when you speak to those in the industry, you find that
40:28
there's usually some level of force, fraud or coercion going
40:32
on. Not always, but I think in many
40:35
cases. But even further, I would say
40:39
that there are instances in which people view pornography
40:44
and they masturbate 2 modern day slaves without knowing it.
40:47
So first of all, let's just ask a question like, how would you
40:49
know? Like how would you know that
40:51
someone just hasn't set up a camera and is filming somebody
40:53
else's abuse? In many of the much of the
40:55
pornography that we watch, it's abusive.
40:58
It's, it's, it's, it's made to look as if it's, you know, B
41:01
grade footage and this sort of thing.
41:03
There was indeed a story that came out a couple of years ago
41:06
from CNN. There was a 54 year old Japanese
41:09
man who had put out a article in the paper saying that he was
41:12
looking for women between certain ages, that he was a
41:15
sleep doctor and was conducting experiments.
41:18
Certain women agreed. He, I think, paid them the the
41:21
fee he said he would. He then gave them strong
41:23
narcotics and alcohol and they thought he was going to monitor
41:27
their sleep. But he raped them.
41:29
And it gets worse if you, if you can get worse.
41:32
It gets worse because he filmed the abuse and then sold this
41:36
footage for hundreds of thousands of dollars to hardcore
41:40
porn companies. And this bastard was only
41:42
discovered because somebody saw herself in a pornography film
41:47
and they caught the guy. But I think like, like, let's
41:50
just think about this. Like if you're the sort of
41:52
disgusting human being who is OK selling a person multiple times
41:57
a night, dozens of times a night, even in in a way, you
42:00
could say it's a good business move because if you were selling
42:03
drugs, once you sell it, like, then you're done.
42:06
But if you can sell a boy or a young girl or an older woman,
42:09
you can sell them multiple times a night.
42:12
So if if you're this sort of decrepit human, what are the
42:15
chances that you haven't also thought that you could
42:18
potentially set up a video camera in certain instances and
42:21
make money in a different way? You know, I think it's quite
42:25
likely. And so therefore, I think it's
42:28
not unreasonable to say that if you view pornography with any
42:32
regularity, the chances of you not having masturbated to a
42:37
modern day slave are slim. Now I have a whole chapter on
42:41
this very topic in my book, The Porn Myth, but that would be
42:44
just some food for thought. Very, very compelling and, and
42:49
heartbreaking and obviously a problem in the United States,
42:53
but it's an Internet. It's a global problem and the
42:55
exploitation of people all over the world.
42:57
I mean, it's sex slavery is our, is our modern slavery.
43:02
So yeah, I, it's very, very compelling and highly recommend.
43:05
Folks, check out Matt's awesome book, The Porn Myth For more
43:10
information on that and more. I, I do want to really wrap up
43:13
here focusing on, OK, what can we do?
43:15
Because, you know, if someone listening is struggling with
43:18
porn, if somebody knows someone they're close to, maybe they
43:21
just found out it's their boyfriend or their girlfriend or
43:23
their spouse. And I know that's its own
43:25
separate category because now you're in a marriage you've
43:28
you've committed to this person for life.
43:30
Talk us through some resources and responses to porn addiction
43:35
porn habits. Well, you know, you can, you can
43:39
give people information, but at the end of the day, they have to
43:41
be the ones to decide to be well.
43:43
And it may be the case that there are people in your life
43:46
who you wish to help, who you will not be able to help because
43:48
they do not wish to be well. And in those instances, I think
43:51
you can give them the tools and then say goodbye.
43:53
You know, if you're in a dating relationship, obviously this is
43:56
different if this is a close loved one or something, you
43:58
know, but that would be the first thing to say.
44:00
But it's not your responsibility to make sure somebody else gets
44:04
well. You can do a lot of things, but
44:07
at the end of the day, it's up to them.
44:09
So let me suggest a couple of resources.
44:10
I have created a 21 day detox from porn course.
44:14
We've put a lot of money into this thing.
44:16
It's incredibly well produced. I joke that it's so highly
44:20
produced you will doubt that it's Catholic, but it's actually
44:22
meant for all Christians, not just Catholics.
44:25
And even atheists, I think could view it and get a lot out of it
44:28
up until last week was 50 bucks to go through the course.
44:30
But we just found a very generous underwriter who has
44:32
made it free, like 100% free. So if you go to strive21.com,
44:37
strive21.com. This is for men only right now.
44:40
You can go through this 21 day detox from porn.
44:42
We've had thousands of men go through it for completely free,
44:44
absolutely no strings attached. So people should send their
44:47
loved ones this or they should check this out.
44:49
We're we're creating a version for women who are struggling
44:51
with porn next year. I would point out my book, The
44:54
Porn Myth, which they can get on Audible or Amazon.
44:58
I would also say it's so important.
45:00
Let's say the person listening is the one struggling.
45:02
I think what they have to do is take responsibility for their
45:04
life. They have to stop blaming other
45:06
people and acknowledge that they need to change and that they
45:09
want to change, and then to do whatever is necessary to see
45:12
that they do change. So covenanteyes.com is the best
45:17
accountability and filtering software on the web, hands down.
45:21
So if you're somebody who struggles with porn regularly
45:23
and you don't have this, that would be like saying I want to
45:26
run a marathon, but I don't want to eat well and work out.
45:28
It's just it. You just need bloody well
45:30
needed. It's very reasonably priced.
45:33
People can use my promo code MATFRAD, one word.
45:36
They can try it for a month for free.
45:38
If they don't like it, they can cancel it.
45:39
But in all honesty, I have this on all my devices and it's just
45:42
a necessity. I would say too that you need to
45:44
be accountable to somebody. So if you're a woman struggling
45:46
with porn, you need to find another woman in your life who
45:48
you trust, who you can share this with.
45:50
If you're a man, you need to find a man.
45:53
Finally, there's just so much to offer.
45:55
But I guess finally I would say I've created an app called
45:58
Victory. I created with a group called
46:00
Lifetain. And this is an app that you
46:02
enter a password to get in. It tells you how many days and
46:05
hours you've been free of porn, how many months you get
46:08
different badges and trophies as you progress.
46:10
It's like the only trophy you can't brag about, right?
46:13
You can put in these settings up to three accountability
46:16
partners. So if you're tempted, you click
46:18
one button on the app and they get a notification.
46:20
It's all very discreet and and very positive.
46:22
And that's completely free as well.
46:24
So those would be a few resources.
46:26
Finally, if you're a woman whose boyfriend or husband struggles
46:29
with porn and you're struggling with what's now called, you
46:32
know, the, the, the trauma brought on by a loved ones porn
46:36
use, loved ones porn use, I would say go to
46:39
bloomforwomen.com. So bloom like a flower blooming
46:43
bloomforwomen.com. There you'll find a community of
46:47
beautiful, understanding women who know what you've been
46:50
through and who can help you process this.
46:53
Thank you, Matt. It's awesome.
46:54
And I think a lot of the resources, I think it just comes
46:57
down to like you said a moment ago, acknowledging that there's
47:01
a problem. I mean, the, the first step is
47:03
acknowledging I have a problem and I'm I need help and I'll do
47:07
whatever it takes to overcome this problem.
47:09
And there are resources out there.
47:10
You just mentioned some phenomenal ones.
47:12
This has been phenomenal. Matt, I really appreciate you
47:16
walking us through the harm of porn.
47:18
You know, the kind of the background here.
47:21
And then resources for those who are struggling or know people
47:24
who are struggling. Thank you.
47:25
So Matt so much, Matt, it's been a pleasure talking to you and
47:29
thank you for tackling this tough topic and in giving so
47:32
much of your life to educating others about it.
47:34
It's so important. Yeah, you got it.
47:37
Thanks, Lila. Thank you everybody for
47:39
listening. I know this is a tough topic,
47:41
one that can be very personal and painful for for people who
47:45
might be listening. Again, if you have any
47:47
questions, thoughts, feedback for me, always love to hear from
47:50
you thoughts at lilaroseshow.com.
47:53
Please check out the resources that Matt recommended.
47:57
I think they're fantastic and I hope that everybody has a a
48:01
wonderful rest of their day. Keep in mind, in all of this,
48:05
God loves us. God is a God of, of, of love and
48:09
kindness and generosity and mercy.
48:11
And at the end of the day, the whole purpose of even talking
48:13
about something like the problem of porn or other challenges in
48:17
our lives is so that we can be healthier and freer to love.
48:20
Thank you all for listening. Have a great rest of your day.