Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E294: The Truth About Big Fertility, No-Fault Divorce, and Same-Sex Households | Lila Rose Show

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E294: The Truth About Big Fertility, No-Fault Divorce, and Same-Sex Households | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  What is going on in the world of big fertility right now is
• 0:02
  eugenics. The world of big fertility and
• 0:04
  adoption are polar opposites. 1 serves as a marketplace for
• 0:07
  adults, the other one serves as an institution on behalf of the
• 0:09
  children. And let's be clear, you're not
• 0:11
  making children with blue eyes, you're mass producing children
• 0:14
  and eliminating the ones who don't have the color of blue
• 0:17
  eyes. We.
• 0:17
  Have a lot of energy right now about Epstein.
• 0:19
  Imagine what not even in Epstein anybody can do because of
• 0:22
  surrogacy today. That's right, there's a long
• 0:24
  standing narrative that says the data actually shows that if
• 0:27
  you're raised in the same sex household versus a traditional
• 0:29
  household with a mom and dad, you're going to do just fine.
• 0:31
  Sometimes the outcomes are better.
• 0:32
  Tell me about what the data actually says.
• 0:35
  Good. This is actually something that
• 0:36
  everybody needs to know. What's the truth about no fault
• 0:43
  divorce? How did no.
• 0:45
  Fault divorce set us up for the Supreme Court decision called
• 0:48
  Obergefell, which legalized gay marriage across the country.
• 0:51
  These and many more questions are what we wrestle with today
• 0:54
  on the show with Katie Faust. We also discussed IVF, surrogacy
• 0:58
  and many other bioethical issues that surround the central
• 1:01
  question of what is best for children.
• 1:03
  Welcome back to the Lila Rose show.
• 1:05
  A huge thank you to everybody who's been supporting the show.
• 1:07
  Make sure that you hit that subscribe button.
• 1:09
  Leave this video a like. Also a big thank you to
• 1:11
  everybody who's supporting us at Patreon.
• 1:13
  When you become a paid annual member of our Patreon, you get
• 1:15
  access to your choice of one free item of merch.
• 1:18
  You also get ad free episodes and other perks.
• 1:21
  And if you're a monthly paying member, you get 30% off all of
• 1:24
  our merch. Thank you so much to all of you
• 1:26
  guys supporting the show. Katie Faust, welcome to the
• 1:28
  podcast. It's so great to be with you.
• 1:30
  I'm so glad you're here. This is such an important
• 1:32
  conversation we're going to have, and you came on two years
• 1:35
  ago remotely. We talked a little bit about
• 1:37
  some of the topics we'll be discussing today, but we did not
• 1:40
  talk about greater than, We didn't get people into your
• 1:42
  story and what's happening in the world.
• 1:44
  So this conversation is so important.
• 1:47
  Thank you. Yeah, well, thank you.
• 1:48
  You know, I have seen you and live action take on a lot of
• 1:53
  these issues where people would say, well, that's not pro-life.
• 1:56
  Like why? What's live action doing?
• 1:57
  That's not a pro-life issue. Yeah, it is like all of these
• 2:00
  issues of child defense, they go together.
• 2:03
  It's not just defending children from the baby taking industry of
• 2:06
  abortion. It's defending children from the
• 2:08
  baby making industry of IVF and the reproductive technologies
• 2:12
  that would deny them their mother or father or both.
• 2:15
  And it is the way that we conceive of a family and whether
• 2:18
  or not we decide that a mother and father are optional in the
• 2:21
  life of a child. All of these things are child
• 2:24
  centric. In all of these areas, we have
• 2:26
  to prioritize child defense. And I, I mean, I have like
• 2:30
  surrogacy, are you? Passionate about this I am.
• 2:32
  I am. We were praying beforehand and
• 2:34
  Katie was saying and, and that prayer really struck me.
• 2:37
  You were praying for us and you were saying there are lives on
• 2:40
  the line. There are lives on the line, so.
• 2:41
  We may, we've come to this, this conversation with a boldness and
• 2:45
  a clarity because there are human lives on the line.
• 2:47
  And that's why I think it's so important what you're doing for
• 2:50
  people that haven't come across you or your work yet.
• 2:52
  Give us a quick background and then I know we're going to get
• 2:55
  deeply into all of the the why behind what you're doing in the
• 2:57
  what well. I tell people, a lot of people
• 3:00
  in the conservative space in the Christian world are familiar
• 3:03
  with the pro-life action and the cause and the necessary work
• 3:09
  that goes along with defending children from abortion.
• 3:11
  That's pretty familiar to us. And so one way that I explain
• 3:15
  what we do at them before us is there's hundreds of
• 3:19
  organizations, as far as I know, that are defending children's
• 3:21
  right to life in a lot of different ways, in a lot of
• 3:24
  different venues. Culturally, legally, in terms of
• 3:28
  policy, we need every single one of them because the risk to
• 3:32
  children is grave. What we do at them before us is
• 3:35
  we defend children's right to their mother and father.
• 3:38
  We defend children's rights on this side of the womb.
• 3:41
  We talk not just about their fundamental right to life, but
• 3:43
  their right to be known and loved by the two people
• 3:45
  responsible for their existence. If children have a right to
• 3:49
  their mother and father, that has implications for every
• 3:53
  conversation about marriage and family, whether it's the
• 3:55
  definition of marriage or divorce or the rise of modern
• 3:59
  families, reproductive technologies, sperm and egg
• 4:03
  donation, surrogacy, IVF, how we properly think about adoption,
• 4:07
  cohabitation, platonic Co parenting, which I think the New
• 4:11
  York Times came out with a big promotion of platonic Co
• 4:14
  parenting last week. If it touches marriage and
• 4:17
  family at them before us, we say with the kid first their rights
• 4:22
  override adult desires. So I often will tell people like
• 4:27
  give me enough time and I will trigger you too.
• 4:30
  You will trigger them, yeah. Because the world of putting
• 4:33
  children. Because we're so obsessed with
• 4:34
  ourselves as the adults. Because it's when.
• 4:37
  It comes to our own sexual lives, our feelings, our
• 4:41
  identities, our longings. Very often adults will say,
• 4:45
  well, I believe children have a right to life.
• 4:46
  I think mothers and fathers are important until.
• 4:50
  Another adult wants to do what they want to do.
• 4:53
  Right until it runs up against an adult's self-interest.
• 4:56
  You know, I think that there's a lot of people that will say,
• 4:59
  well, well, I've heard people say, well, I am against abortion
• 5:04
  except in three cases, rape, incest and my case.
• 5:08
  And the idea is like we will make all kinds of
• 5:10
  rationalizations for what we want as adults.
• 5:14
  If something is interfering with our self-interest, especially in
• 5:17
  the romantic or the sexual realm, it's we will find endless
• 5:21
  ways to justify what it is that we want to do.
• 5:24
  And the world of putting children first, saying they have
• 5:27
  a fundamental, non negotiable, natural right to be known and
• 5:32
  loved by both their mother and father.
• 5:34
  It is a Wrecking Ball for adults that want a casual divorce or
• 5:39
  want to build a family around a same sex attraction or who want
• 5:43
  to deal with their their longing to have a child by procuring
• 5:48
  somebody else's egg to make it happen.
• 5:51
  Like this is a world that demands that everybody, single,
• 5:55
  married, gay, straight, fertile and infertile sacrifice for
• 6:00
  children and conform to those rights.
• 6:03
  And that's a hard message for a lot of adults to hear.
• 6:06
  So you are the woman with the hard message today.
• 6:08
  I am used to being that woman too.
• 6:10
  You know, also in real life, you're very fun, normal, you've
• 6:13
  got a beautiful marriage, kids. You're I don't think you set out
• 6:16
  to be the lady with the hard message as neither did I with
• 6:20
  the hard messages that I sometimes share and need to
• 6:23
  share on behalf of the most vulnerable.
• 6:25
  So I want to go back there and then I and then we're going to
• 6:28
  get to this or the crazy news story that broke from Los
• 6:32
  Angeles. But first, just for people's
• 6:34
  context, you mentioned them before us.
• 6:36
  You are speaking very passionately.
• 6:38
  Why? Why did you get into this?
• 6:41
  What was your aha moment that made you think, wow the whole
• 6:45
  world is wrong on this issue right now of treating children's
• 6:49
  as the priority instead of the adult desires?
• 6:53
  I did not set out to do this. My normal persona is pastor's
• 6:59
  wife. Like, I literally just want to
• 7:01
  bear your burden. I, I want to read the Bible with
• 7:03
  you. I'm much more of a grace giver
• 7:06
  than a truth teller by nature. Like I am not a confrontational
• 7:10
  person. I, I'm friends with all kinds of
• 7:12
  people doing all kinds of things that I disagree with.
• 7:15
  And I don't feel like it's my job to get in and be like, let
• 7:17
  me tell you what's right and wrong about that.
• 7:20
  I got into this because of gay marriage.
• 7:22
  I got into this because in 2012, right after Obama evolved on the
• 7:27
  topic of marriage, I saw a sea change, especially in media
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  where they were now free to now that they had the president on
• 7:35
  their side, gay marriage activists were free to accuse
• 7:37
  everybody. And the media took their cues
• 7:39
  from that to say you are a bigot and you're a hater and you're
• 7:42
  homophobe. If you oppose.
• 7:44
  If you oppose gay marriage, that is the only reason.
• 7:46
  Animus. That's it.
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  And I was like, well that's that's garbage.
• 7:50
  Because just like every other supporter of natural marriage, I
• 7:54
  have gay family and friends that I love, that I work to sacrifice
• 7:58
  for and be in relationship with and don't have any animosity to.
• 8:02
  Can you share about your mother because she, your mother has
• 8:06
  lived the lesbian lifestyle? You had a second mom, some
• 8:10
  people would call her growing up.
• 8:12
  That's definitely. If I was on the other side
• 8:14
  advocating for gay marriage, I would say I would usually.
• 8:17
  Mom, I've got 2 dads. Yeah, right.
• 8:19
  But there's no such thing. There's no such thing.
• 8:21
  So. But tell me.
• 8:22
  Yeah, tell me that experience. My parents were married until I
• 8:24
  was 10. I was very close to my mom and
• 8:26
  my dad and then they divorced and my father dated and
• 8:29
  remarried and very soon after the divorce my mom re partnered
• 8:33
  with a woman, a woman that she has been together with for 40
• 8:36
  years. So after the divorce, I split
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  time between the home of my father and his girlfriend or
• 8:43
  subsequent wife and split time with my mom and her partner.
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  And I love them. I have been in a relationship
• 8:53
  with them. They've been very stable.
• 8:55
  I've never really had any significant conflict with either
• 8:58
  one of them. They've been a part of my life
• 9:01
  all through my adolescence, college, early married, a part
• 9:05
  of my children's life. I mean, they're welcome and
• 9:08
  invited to holidays. I, I was just there the week, a
• 9:12
  week and a half ago, like hanging out with them.
• 9:14
  I mean, like they're after we launched our campaign to
• 9:17
  overturn gay marriage, which is something we'll probably talk
• 9:19
  about. You know, there's some writer
• 9:22
  for the Free Press who's like, I can't hold my tongue any longer.
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  This woman is on a crusade against her own lesbian mother.
• 9:31
  She's trying to work out her mommy issues.
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  But really, it's this nefarious plot.
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  And I'm like, well, I'll let them know about my nefarious
• 9:39
  plot to destroy them at brunch tomorrow when I'm hanging out
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  with them. It's very dark.
• 9:43
  Yes, What I'm doing is very, very dark.
• 9:45
  Obviously this is some kind of like personal retribution that
• 9:49
  I'm No, it's not like you can have a relationship with the
• 9:53
  people that you love who identify as gay and lesbian.
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  In fact, you should. In fact, I think you should be
• 9:57
  the most sacrificial and compassionate person in their
• 9:59
  life. And none of that requires
• 10:02
  redefining the most child friendly institution the world
• 10:04
  has ever known. You can and should zealously
• 10:08
  promote the idea that mothers and fathers matter to children.
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  And therefore we should promote the one relationship where
• 10:13
  children do not have to lose either one of them to be in that
• 10:15
  family and love your gay family and friends.
• 10:19
  There's no conflict between those two positions.
• 10:22
  Well, the media of course, will tell you, no, you can't.
• 10:25
  You are actually unloving. You're hateful if you don't give
• 10:29
  people who are not straight, don't give gay people marriage,
• 10:33
  the same marriage as everybody else.
• 10:35
  And before you give a response to that, I just want to know
• 10:38
  when you have that brunch, when you had that brunch with your
• 10:41
  mother, your beloved mother that you are very close with and her
• 10:44
  lesbian partner, right? What's the conversation like?
• 10:48
  They know what you're doing. They know about greater than
• 10:51
  your campaign to overturn Obergefell, something that I'm,
• 10:54
  I'm signed up for, I'm part of this campaign.
• 10:57
  How did that, what does that look like?
• 10:58
  What does that conversation look like?
• 10:59
  They have known where I stood about all of these issues for
• 11:04
  forever. I mean, ever since I became a
• 11:06
  Christian in high school, we've had conversations about the ways
• 11:10
  that our world view is not necessarily in alignment.
• 11:14
  But I hope, I think that I rank in the top 2 of people who love
• 11:19
  them the most. And so even if we disagree about
• 11:21
  policy, they understand that that is not an impediment for
• 11:25
  our relationship. And they also know because, you
• 11:29
  know, my mom has read my materials and followed my work.
• 11:32
  She knows that I am not saying oh gay people don't have
• 11:36
  dignity. No, gay people are second class
• 11:38
  citizens, what I'm saying? Gay people should go to prison
• 11:41
  if they are being sexual with another gay person or living
• 11:44
  with another gay person. That, of course, is nothing what
• 11:47
  you're saying. You're saying that the
• 11:49
  institution of marriage is something very unique, very
• 11:52
  specific, has been for not just centuries, but for all of human
• 11:56
  history, one man, one woman. And there's a very important,
• 12:00
  there's a number of very important and essential reasons
• 12:02
  for that. And the reason that matters the
• 12:04
  most is what does the gay marriage rubric require?
• 12:11
  It requires communicating that a child's mother and father are
• 12:14
  optional in their life. It requires me saying, hey, two
• 12:19
  men who might be completely unrelated could have replaced
• 12:22
  you mom with no impact on my development, my understanding as
• 12:27
  a woman, my own identity, my connection to her entire
• 12:31
  extended family, which is pretty fantastic with deep
• 12:34
  relationships that matter a lot to me and family stories that
• 12:38
  have like impacted how I Live Today.
• 12:41
  And you know, 2 random guys, totally unrelated, could have
• 12:45
  raised me in a way that didn't impact any of my development or
• 12:49
  my identity, my understanding as woman, or even how I mother my
• 12:51
  own kids. I often say I get so much of
• 12:56
  what I do well as a mother because of how my mother
• 12:58
  mothered me. So it's just, I think the height
• 13:02
  of dishonor to say, hey, mom, you're optional in my life.
• 13:06
  But that's what gay marriage communicates culturally and
• 13:10
  legally. So we, I don't speak for either
• 13:13
  of them. I don't share, you know, their
• 13:15
  opinions. But they both know that I
• 13:17
  fiercely love my mom. I don't consider her partner to
• 13:21
  be my mother, but I do consider her to be my friend.
• 13:24
  Yes, I remember an old acquaintance of mine, you know,
• 13:29
  very sweet. I knew in high school, etcetera.
• 13:32
  And he later on decided, you know, he was gay and he was
• 13:36
  going to be in a gay relationship and, you know,
• 13:38
  potentially gay marriage and all of this.
• 13:40
  And his mother was not able to accept this because she just is
• 13:45
  not God's design for you. It's not good for you.
• 13:48
  And anyway, she passed the mother and the son at the
• 13:51
  funeral was just weeping. My only mother, my only mother.
• 13:54
  I love her so much. She's my mother, my mother, my
• 13:56
  mother. And I remember thinking like
• 13:59
  this. And he's expressed he wants to
• 14:01
  adopt or he wants to do surrogacy or, you know,
• 14:02
  basically have his kids with his partner, his male partner.
• 14:05
  And I remember thinking, you know, what about that mother
• 14:09
  relationship that was so essential to your core identity
• 14:12
  and to everything that is for every human being, every human
• 14:15
  being, whether they have mommy issues or mommy joys, like
• 14:18
  they're so happy with their mother, their experience of
• 14:21
  mother being mothered. But so you're saying by design,
• 14:24
  you're going to bring humans into this world, right?
• 14:27
  That are you going to take humans that are already in this
• 14:29
  world that could have gone to a mother and a father if it's
• 14:31
  adoption, and you're going to, by design, remove the potential
• 14:36
  for them to know a mother the way that you knew a mother that
• 14:39
  was so essential to your identity?
• 14:41
  And again, I don't think he's thinking this.
• 14:43
  I don't think maybe it's, I don't, I can't imagine it's
• 14:45
  intentional. He's just so overridden with his
• 14:48
  desire to be with this man, to be normal, to have a family, to
• 14:52
  have a, to experience fatherhood himself.
• 14:54
  But his experience of fatherhood is more important than a child's
• 14:56
  experience of motherhood. And it's, it's, but it's, it's
• 14:59
  out there. And you see that with, you see
• 15:02
  that with surrogacy, with, you know, even heterosexual couples
• 15:05
  too. So we're, we're going to get
• 15:06
  into all of that. There's this expectation that
• 15:09
  what I want is the most important thing for for the
• 15:14
  adult. That's exactly right.
• 15:16
  And that is the other part of why I got into this.
• 15:18
  It wasn't just the accusation that if you oppose gay marriage
• 15:21
  or some kind of hateful homophobic bigot, it was because
• 15:25
  what I heard from the gay marriage camp is kids don't care
• 15:29
  if they have two moms or two dads.
• 15:30
  They love it. They don't need the mom or they
• 15:32
  don't need the dads. That's it.
• 15:34
  That is the reality. What were they to say?
• 15:36
  I mean, it's just crazy. And, and like what you need to
• 15:40
  hear when somebody says kids loving have having two moms, You
• 15:45
  need to hear kids love being fatherless.
• 15:47
  And when somebody says kids are doing so well with two dads,
• 15:51
  kids love mother loss. That's how you need to hear it.
• 15:55
  And I, my husband and I had been doing youth ministry for years.
• 15:58
  I had been the assistant director at the largest Chinese
• 16:00
  adoption agency in the world. I had been a mother with lots of
• 16:04
  other kids of their friends in my home.
• 16:06
  I had a lot of close contact with children.
• 16:09
  And I'll tell you something that kids care about is does their
• 16:13
  mother or father love them or have they left them?
• 16:16
  And at minimum, if a child's not being raised by their mom and
• 16:20
  dad, at minimum they're curious, well, who are they?
• 16:23
  Well, I'd like to know. But very, very often that mother
• 16:26
  or father loss leaves a lifelong wound that results in self
• 16:29
  loathing, something that they're still, their chin is still
• 16:34
  quivering about when they're 50 or 60 or 70, like at them before
• 16:39
  us. We call it a primal wound, a
• 16:41
  wound that goes down to the core of who you are and your
• 16:45
  understanding of yourself as a person.
• 16:47
  Like these relationships that we have with the two people who
• 16:50
  made us tell us something about ourselves, our identity and our
• 16:54
  worth. And if you're raised at home
• 16:56
  without a male or a female parent, you actually are starved
• 17:00
  of one of the critical socio emotional components that all
• 17:03
  children need to thrive. Mother's love, father's love and
• 17:06
  stability. You cannot just starve children
• 17:09
  of something that they are made for and expect them to thrive.
• 17:14
  So that's the main reason I got into this.
• 17:15
  It was not because of some kind of like childhood deficit and
• 17:20
  wound or raging against my mother or whatever like that.
• 17:24
  It's it is because children are being victimized in the name of
• 17:27
  progress. We are weaponizing some of the
• 17:29
  greatest wounds children will experience to advance so-called
• 17:33
  adult political equality. And that is what got me kind of
• 17:36
  off the couch and behind the keyboard.
• 17:38
  Well, I'm so glad you're behind the keyboard and on this podcast
• 17:41
  because very few people have the courage that you have, Katie, to
• 17:45
  do this advocacy because you are called every like the worst
• 17:48
  names and there have been physical violence done.
• 17:51
  I think about ADF and their work to, you know, defend traditional
• 17:55
  marriage, natural marriage, I should say, and their work to
• 17:57
  defend life. But you know, people showing up
• 17:59
  at their offices to try to kill them and FRC and just the
• 18:02
  attacks that have been done on advocacy groups.
• 18:04
  So I want to show this video. This is an example of really,
• 18:09
  it's a it's a portrait, I would say live on TikTok and on X and
• 18:13
  Instagram of motherlessness treated as unimportant, as
• 18:22
  complete, as almost a joke. Like motherlessness is a butt of
• 18:25
  a joke as opposed to motherlessness is a primal
• 18:29
  wound. And it's something that no child
• 18:31
  should have to experience. So let's take a look.
• 18:33
  So this is to gay men who are like influencers and they have
• 18:37
  these two babies, I think via surrogacy, these little girls,
• 18:40
  beautiful little girls. And they're holding them their
• 18:42
  big bows on in a video for TikTok is what they say.
• 18:45
  So, the caption reads, your daughters are going to grow up
• 18:48
  without a mom. And the men go, they're they're
• 18:55
  dancing around. They go yes.
• 18:56
  And. Yeah, yes.
• 18:58
  And so what's going to happen to those girls growing up without a
• 19:01
  mom? Well.
• 19:03
  Like a meme. They made a meme, basically a
• 19:05
  meme of like, oh, you're someone's concerned that our
• 19:09
  daughters don't have a mother, ha ha.
• 19:10
  And you're like, screw you. Like who cares?
• 19:12
  And it's like, that's really what motherhood is to you.
• 19:16
  And these are the people that that the state, I think this is
• 19:19
  California. They're in California.
• 19:20
  They're they're. LA, most of them.
• 19:21
  Are the state of California and the United States has entrusted
• 19:25
  you because you can't have those kids naturally, that's
• 19:28
  impossible. Those are not your children.
• 19:31
  They one of them is biologically related to them potentially, but
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  that's only through an unnatural process that is sanctioned by
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  women's products over at everylife.com.
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  Use code Lila at checkout. So first, let's talk about what
• 21:28
  those girls are going to lose. What kind of harm are they going
• 21:31
  to experience? Now what are what are the
• 21:33
  negative consequences of let's do motherhood and let's do
• 21:36
  fatherhood and what is the data bear out?
• 21:38
  OK, so first of all, let's talk about just the process of being
• 21:43
  commercially separated from your mom or dad.
• 21:45
  OK, so these children lost their genetic mother and that is going
• 21:51
  to result in very likely biological identity issues,
• 21:55
  right? Identity struggles.
• 21:57
  We now have donor conceived organizations that will survey
• 22:00
  their members and talk about like, how did this impact you?
• 22:03
  Overwhelmingly they will say being donor conceived is a huge
• 22:06
  part of who I am. Most of them will say I really
• 22:08
  would like to know the identity of my genetic parent, my
• 22:11
  biological mother or father. Gosh, it's really tough to not
• 22:14
  have complete medical records or be concerned that I have 12 to
• 22:18
  20 to 200 half siblings because my father was a serial sperm
• 22:22
  donor. I worry about accidental incest,
• 22:25
  unknowingly dating or marrying somebody who is 1/2 sibling or
• 22:28
  maybe a first cousin, of which there could be thousands
• 22:31
  depending on how often their father donated.
• 22:34
  Then you've got the commercialization,
• 22:35
  commodification aspect. Can I interrupt you really quick
• 22:37
  before going to that second point?
• 22:39
  What you just said is so important, and I also think it's
• 22:42
  another crucial distinction. You're talking about donor egg
• 22:45
  babies. Yes.
• 22:46
  We're not talking about adoption.
• 22:47
  We're going to get to adoption because there's a different
• 22:50
  context there that actually really matters, including on in
• 22:52
  the impact on the child. We're talking about women who
• 22:55
  willfully, by design, go. And sell their genetics.
• 22:58
  It's not like, oh, I got pregnant accidentally and I
• 23:00
  can't carry this child because of these other, you know, huge
• 23:02
  extenuating circumstances. I'm going to make this heroic
• 23:04
  choice of giving this baby to a family that can really care for
• 23:07
  the child. And there's a mother and a
• 23:08
  father intact in this family. You know, this is like, I'm
• 23:10
  literally you're selling your eggs.
• 23:12
  You're selling your. Children selling your children.
• 23:13
  That's right. You're selling your children.
• 23:15
  Those children are just as much your children as a child that
• 23:18
  you will have conventionally later when you're married, you
• 23:20
  will have the same kind of genetic relationship to the ones
• 23:22
  that you're that you sold. That's the ones that you're
• 23:24
  raising so crazy. There's no way for them to be
• 23:27
  less, less of your children than they actually are.
• 23:30
  So a lot of the kids created through sperm and egg donate and
• 23:34
  it's not donation. Nobody is donating sperm.
• 23:38
  Everybody is selling sperm. Yeah, that's right.
• 23:42
  Nobody is just donating your eggs.
• 23:43
  You are buying eggs and you are selling eggs.
• 23:45
  We have catalogs you can Google right now, egg donor catalog,
• 23:49
  sperm donor catalog. You can filter your child's
• 23:51
  genetic mother based on race, education, whether she wants to
• 23:54
  be a known or unknown donor price.
• 23:57
  Obviously so. Why do they call it Donor Katie
• 24:01
  and not just? Seller buy an egg selling.
• 24:03
  Yeah, well, because we want to make it sound like it's some
• 24:06
  kind of altruistic nonprofit, which it's not.
• 24:08
  And I'm glad we're going to talk about the distinctions between
• 24:11
  big fertility and adoption because there are similarities.
• 24:14
  And that is that children lose their mother or father, but
• 24:17
  that's it. Like the world of adoption is 1
• 24:20
  where adults do hard things for kids.
• 24:21
  And the world of big fertility is children sacrificing for
• 24:23
  adults. So we can we can go there.
• 24:25
  So back to the problems these girls are going to have.
• 24:27
  They're going to deal with issues of commodification,
• 24:30
  feeling like they were designed, bought and sold because they are
• 24:34
  like that. Feeling of being a designer
• 24:35
  product, like a eugenics project is not unusual for these kids
• 24:41
  because they were treated like a eugenics project.
• 24:43
  You are probably aware, because I think Live Action has written
• 24:46
  about it, that there are now boutique clinics that will help
• 24:50
  you select up to to 1200. They'll still genetically screen
• 24:54
  your child for up to 1200 characteristics.
• 24:56
  You can eliminate the ones with the possibility of early
• 25:00
  baldness or potential blindness or certain heart conditions.
• 25:04
  And then you've got boutique clinics here in California that
• 25:07
  will allow you to select a variety of different
• 25:08
  characteristics of your children from the color of their eyes.
• 25:12
  We're working towards getting different height controls.
• 25:14
  And let's be clear, you're not making children with blue eyes,
• 25:19
  you're mass producing children and eliminating the ones who
• 25:22
  don't have the color of blue eyes that you want.
• 25:25
  So this is eugenics in every sense that you could be
• 25:28
  manufacturing and selecting only certain attributes and
• 25:31
  discarding the undesirables. What is going on in the world of
• 25:34
  big fertility right now is eugenics, often in the name of
• 25:38
  progress and family building. So that's one issue.
• 25:40
  That's only one issue that these girls are going to be facing.
• 25:43
  They're also going to be dealing with mother hunger.
• 25:46
  Children don't just want to be loved by generic caregivers,
• 25:50
  right? They don't just crave being
• 25:53
  taken care of. That's right.
• 25:54
  They actually crave the love of a male parent and a female
• 25:58
  parent. They long to be loved by a man
• 26:01
  and a woman. They are made for it.
• 26:04
  There was one woman who was raised by two dads who said I, I
• 26:10
  didn't even know that there was such a thing as a mother because
• 26:12
  it was just my father. And Billy, his boyfriend.
• 26:16
  And I had really limited contact with the rest of the world until
• 26:19
  I was in, in kindergarten. I was five years old and we
• 26:23
  watched The Land Before Time. And she said, I certainly
• 26:27
  realized that there was a thing called mother and it was a woman
• 26:31
  who was your parent. And she said, I spent the rest
• 26:36
  of the day crying in the arms of teachers I would never see again
• 26:40
  for a mother I never knew I had. And then she it awakened and
• 26:43
  heard this mother hunger where she went to different teachers
• 26:47
  or her father's lesbian friends and would just go and say, will
• 26:50
  you be my mother? How about you?
• 26:52
  Will you be my mother? Can you be my mother because she
• 26:54
  hungered for a female parent even though she was well loved
• 26:58
  by her two gay dads. It's not enough to just have
• 27:00
  people love you and care for you.
• 27:02
  Children hunger for the love of a man and a woman.
• 27:06
  What is it that that mother was going to do other than meeting
• 27:09
  that emotional need? Well, especially for a little
• 27:12
  girl. She communicates something true
• 27:14
  about the girl herself, which is I am your future.
• 27:19
  You're going to grow up. Womanhood is in your future, and
• 27:22
  hopefully those girls have a mom who shows them.
• 27:25
  Womanhood is awesome. You should look forward to it.
• 27:29
  This is going to be incredible, but it's hard to do that when
• 27:32
  you do not have a woman in your home.
• 27:34
  Just on XA couple days ago some guy was talking about how he was
• 27:37
  a sperm donor for two women and his son had some mental health
• 27:44
  challenges. Ended up identifying as trans,
• 27:47
  demanded money from the biological father to go through
• 27:51
  a transition and the father said I couldn't do it, I had to cut
• 27:54
  the kid off and everyone's celebrating.
• 27:57
  Oh wow, you did the right thing. I'm like, you know, it's really
• 28:00
  hard to love the fact that you're a boy growing up into a
• 28:03
  man if you don't even have one in your house.
• 28:06
  Wait, he was talking about this is with a child that he
• 28:09
  ultimately abandoned into the arms of?
• 28:11
  Sold his sperm to lesbians. And then and then he wasn't
• 28:14
  raising this child. No, but had some contact would
• 28:16
  send some. Money, send a birthday card.
• 28:18
  And then later on the boy has identity issues.
• 28:21
  Surprise, surprise. That's exactly right.
• 28:23
  Surprise, surprise, little boy raised without a father whose
• 28:27
  dad literally sold him down the river.
• 28:29
  That's right, has identity issues.
• 28:31
  Is anybody shocked by this? Rejecting his own maleness.
• 28:34
  And then he was trying to score points with right wing Twitter
• 28:36
  by saying I'm not going to give money for the transition.
• 28:39
  Yeah, and like, I'm the hero now.
• 28:40
  Yeah, I'm the hero because I said no.
• 28:42
  Sounds like a raging narcissist. I don't use that lightly either.
• 28:45
  Well, it's I mean, but it's tragic because this is what the
• 28:47
  culture says is normal. Donate and they say, like you
• 28:49
  said, they say it's altruistic right to donate sperm, to donate
• 28:52
  eggs. Yeah, children need a male and
• 28:55
  female parent. If you're a little boy, you need
• 28:57
  a man in your home so that you go, I love being a man and being
• 29:01
  a man is great. And having a mother, an opposite
• 29:04
  sex parent in your home tells you this is how.
• 29:07
  This is what it's like to interact with the opposite sex
• 29:10
  and this is who I should be looking for as a counterpart
• 29:12
  when I grow up. Like we all have a same sex and
• 29:15
  an opposite sex parent in our home by design because it's
• 29:18
  critical developmentally, not only for your own self
• 29:21
  understanding, your own identity, your own idea of what
• 29:24
  you look like as an adult, but also interacting with the
• 29:26
  opposite sex and pairing up well when you date and marry.
• 29:30
  It is not uncommon for kids with two moms or two dads to really
• 29:34
  struggle interacting with the opposite sex because they've
• 29:37
  never seen that sort of two halves of humanity dynamic
• 29:41
  playing out before them everyday all day.
• 29:44
  I just interviewed Ross Johnson, who you had on your podcast.
• 29:49
  I was just thinking about him. And we?
• 29:52
  As you were talking. He.
• 29:54
  Great guy. He's great and he did US the
• 29:56
  gracious favor of doing a long interview with us for our
• 30:00
  Greater Than Campaign so that people can take a look at the
• 30:04
  real impact that it has on a child when they grew up without
• 30:07
  a father, even though they are loved, cared for, have a roof
• 30:11
  over the mouth and a belly full of food.
• 30:13
  And he was talking about how he really panicked when it came to
• 30:17
  dating and girls. He's he just was paralyzed.
• 30:20
  He didn't know what to do. He talked a lot about how I'm so
• 30:24
  excited his video is going to be up on the Greater Than Campaign
• 30:27
  website soon, but he talked about how he's not.
• 30:32
  You're trying to set him up. You found someone for him.
• 30:34
  Oh, I. We love you, Ross.
• 30:36
  We love you. We're praying for you.
• 30:37
  You're going to be such. A great dad.
• 30:39
  That's so sweet you're. Going to be such a great dad,
• 30:42
  but he talked about how I said, was there times where you had
• 30:46
  other men in your life that you really feel like connected with
• 30:50
  you? And he said there was a couple
• 30:51
  coaches and some of the fathers of my friends and he's like, one
• 30:55
  of them had this Mustang and it was like a muscle car.
• 30:59
  And the dad was so masculine. And he goes, I wanted to be near
• 31:03
  that man and in that car because I didn't, I wasn't around men.
• 31:08
  And the men that were around my house tended to be gay men that
• 31:12
  were very effeminate. And he said something about that
• 31:15
  masculine energy. I just gravitated towards it.
• 31:19
  Now that's father hunger, right? That's an example of a child
• 31:22
  hungering for that missing love. It wasn't that he was not well
• 31:26
  cared for. He had a roof for his head.
• 31:28
  He had resources. He had parents that took him to
• 31:30
  and from all of his activities. He wanted masculine connection,
• 31:35
  not because he's weird, but because he is a human child and
• 31:38
  that is what human children want.
• 31:39
  So you look at these two girls, they're going to be dealing with
• 31:41
  the commodification. They're going to be dealing with
• 31:44
  the identity struggles that go along with being cut off from
• 31:47
  half of their genetic identity. They're going to be dealing with
• 31:50
  the mother hunger that goes along with that and maternal
• 31:55
  deprivation that happens at the time of birth, after birth.
• 32:00
  It can have significant impacts on a child's long term
• 32:03
  development. And, you know, I'm an adoptive
• 32:06
  mom. I'm, I was in the adoption
• 32:09
  world. I think adoption is amazing,
• 32:12
  redemptive. It is, as a good adoptive friend
• 32:15
  of mine says, God's Plan B, God's divine Plan B when it
• 32:19
  comes to raising children. But adoptees also struggle very
• 32:24
  often with that primal wound, with those feelings of
• 32:28
  abandonment that they just can't shake even when they're growing
• 32:31
  up. A lot of adoptees struggle with
• 32:35
  behavior struggles as it relates to emotional regulation, as it
• 32:39
  relates to fearfulness, like always feeling like they're on
• 32:42
  high alert. That's mother deprivation.
• 32:45
  You know a lot of. Them not mother, to be clear,
• 32:48
  it's mother deprivation of their biological mother because they
• 32:51
  have a mother in many of these situations.
• 32:53
  A beautiful married couple that adopts them like you and your
• 32:56
  husband. And then but there's still
• 32:58
  there's still challenges. And again, not for all adoptees,
• 33:01
  right? You can't ever break too broad
• 33:03
  of a brush, but it can be the case for some or or even many,
• 33:06
  like you're saying. And so you're saying any any
• 33:09
  issues that a child with adoption may struggle with any
• 33:11
  of those are automatically going to be there for these situations
• 33:15
  of gay adopters and more. That's right and more.
• 33:17
  That's right, that that primal bond that we developed with our
• 33:21
  mother, the only think about it like it just blows me away.
• 33:25
  The only person in the world we will ever be connected to by a
• 33:30
  physical cord. We're trying to pretend like
• 33:33
  that doesn't matter and you can just cut the kids off like
• 33:37
  you're going to raise your child without a mother.
• 33:39
  Yes. And like, yes, and you damn
• 33:43
  traffickers, like no, you don't get to commercially sever a
• 33:47
  child from their mother so that they can function as some kind
• 33:50
  of accoutrement to your lifestyle.
• 33:51
  But they did, and there was no background check, right?
• 33:54
  They had the full right to do it because they're wealthy enough.
• 33:56
  They had enough money. Nobody stopped them.
• 33:58
  The law is like, whatever, do what you want.
• 34:01
  Yeah. And unless there's more you want
• 34:03
  to say specifically about those girls, this brings me to the
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• 35:49
  This news just broke yesterday. I think this New Yorker article
• 35:52
  came out. I was, I've been following this
• 35:54
  story since the summertime when I first heard about it.
• 35:57
  You know, mansion in Los Angeles discovered that there's over 20
• 36:01
  babies being raised in this mansion by this couple.
• 36:06
  And all of these babies were bought via surrogacy.
• 36:11
  Now, rarely will the media entity report them as being
• 36:13
  bought because they're not honest.
• 36:16
  That is what's happening now. You pay what?
• 36:18
  How much money is surrogacy? I believe that in California I
• 36:21
  was just looking at a Californian website for a
• 36:24
  surrogacy and they put it at 160 to 200,000 to purchase a child
• 36:28
  in California. Insane.
• 36:31
  And that's because you're paying for the donor sperm, the donor
• 36:34
  eggs, whatever the selection process involves.
• 36:37
  And then you're paying for the gestation, the mother that is
• 36:41
  not actually acting as going to act as mother, but she's
• 36:43
  carrying the baby and then. All of the IVF cycles, IVF
• 36:47
  cycles, the storage fees that go along with that, all of the
• 36:50
  legal fees, all of the clinic fees, all of the doctor fees.
• 36:54
  But notice who you're not paying.
• 36:56
  There's no social worker coming to your house.
• 36:58
  We're not doing any fingerprinting or background
• 37:00
  checks like those of us that have adopted.
• 37:03
  We also spent money. A lot of us spent 10s of
• 37:06
  thousands of dollars. And you know what never
• 37:09
  happened? Our money never went to the
• 37:12
  birth mother. Our money never went to the
• 37:14
  first family. I used to be responsible when we
• 37:18
  were when I was at the Chinese adoption agency, I was
• 37:21
  responsible for compliance with international federal and state
• 37:25
  level laws. The money went to lawyers, is
• 37:27
  what you're saying. The what?
• 37:28
  The money went to lawyers and bureaucracy is what you're
• 37:30
  saying. The money went to systems that
• 37:33
  were supposed to be set up for child protection.
• 37:35
  You think they do a good job in the adoption world?
• 37:37
  I would say that the adoption standards are good whether or
• 37:43
  not people follow them and really exalt the best interest
• 37:46
  of the child. That is where the problems
• 37:48
  happen. I, I, we can get into what I
• 37:50
  feel like are the problems with adoption, but adoption as an
• 37:53
  institution is set up and established around the best
• 37:56
  interest of the child. When you look at the
• 37:58
  regulations, when you look at the requirements, it is not to
• 38:01
  serve adults, it is to. Make sure to pay.
• 38:04
  The adults have to pay in every way.
• 38:05
  They have to pay money. They have to bend their lives.
• 38:07
  They have to subject themselves to pretty invasive questioning.
• 38:11
  They have to submit medical records and financial checks and
• 38:14
  and references from friends. Like the people come, they look
• 38:16
  at how you parent your other children.
• 38:17
  They look. What are the outlets like?
• 38:19
  I mean like it's an invasive process.
• 38:20
  And if they're accompanying a birth mother during her
• 38:23
  pregnancy, they have no rights over that baby until the until
• 38:27
  the baby's born and the papers are signed.
• 38:28
  So this happens. They could pay for the medical
• 38:30
  care, they can pay for the processing, they can pay for all
• 38:32
  the things, the checks, they can have their home prepared.
• 38:35
  And they're accompanying this birth mother who's like, I
• 38:37
  really don't want a mother. This is why I can't, whatever
• 38:38
  their situation is. And then she's delivers that
• 38:41
  baby and then she naturally has a deep, intense longing to be
• 38:45
  with her baby the rest of her life.
• 38:46
  She says, I just can't go through with the adoption, which
• 38:48
  is fully her right. And we bless her and support her
• 38:50
  and she should feel totally free to do that that.
• 38:53
  But then they walk, they have to walk off and whatever $40,000
• 38:57
  they've spent or more it, it is what it's, you know, what's done
• 39:00
  is done in surrogacy, though, that surrogate mother.
• 39:04
  And now I'm going to let you preach this, but I'm you know,
• 39:07
  she has no rights to protect her baby.
• 39:10
  That donor mother who wasn't a donor, she sold her eggs, has no
• 39:13
  rights to protect her baby. And that's what this story is
• 39:15
  about. That's right in LA.
• 39:16
  Let me, let me just read the read the was there anything more
• 39:19
  you want to add before we get into the story?
• 39:20
  Let me please do. Let me just set that up even a
• 39:22
  little bit. Little bit more please do with
• 39:26
  adoption. People pay money for adoption.
• 39:30
  That money never goes from intended parents to the birth
• 39:32
  mother. I mean, I know that there's ways
• 39:34
  you're like, well, we're taking care of our expenses.
• 39:36
  What is not happening is I'm giving you money to relinquish
• 39:39
  your parental rights. If that line is ever crossed,
• 39:42
  that is the bright red line in adoption.
• 39:44
  If that has ever crossed, it is no longer an adoption, it is
• 39:47
  trafficking. When money goes from intended
• 39:50
  parents to genetic or birth parents to relinquish their
• 39:52
  rights, it is trafficking. And that was one of the big
• 39:55
  things that me as sort of the compliance officer had to watch
• 39:58
  for was there, which was not hard in in Chinese adoption
• 40:01
  because the birth parents were never even known.
• 40:04
  But there are some countries and there are some scenarios in the
• 40:07
  United States where when that line gets blurred, you lose your
• 40:10
  license because that's not adoption.
• 40:13
  That is baby buying. But what is it that you're
• 40:16
  asking for? What do you pay money for?
• 40:18
  When you get a sperm donor or an egg donor or a surrogate, you
• 40:22
  literally pay them to relinquish their parental rights.
• 40:25
  In the contract, it will say, I am accepting this $200 for my
• 40:28
  sperm, and I promise to never have any contact with the child
• 40:32
  that might result. You talk about the laws across
• 40:36
  the United States. There is no state in the United
• 40:38
  States that will allow a birth mother to relinquish her
• 40:42
  parental rights before the baby is born.
• 40:44
  The law presumes that that mother and that baby belong
• 40:47
  together. Only afterwards, a couple days
• 40:50
  or sometimes a couple weeks, will she be able to relinquish
• 40:53
  her parental rights for an adoption.
• 40:56
  In the world of surrogacy we now have something called a pre
• 40:59
  birth order where women are forced to legally orphan the
• 41:02
  child they are carrying in the second or third trimester for
• 41:05
  surrogacy. When I talk about how the world
• 41:09
  of big fertility and adoption are polar opposites, I it's not
• 41:12
  hyperbolic. These two things are totally set
• 41:16
  up against one another. One serves as a marketplace for
• 41:19
  adults. The other one serves as an
• 41:21
  institution on behalf of the children.
• 41:23
  And so it the people that conflate surrogacy and adoption,
• 41:26
  I'm like, let's go from the child's perspective.
• 41:30
  They are. They're nothing alike.
• 41:33
  All right, that is very it's crazy to me what you're saying.
• 41:36
  The I mean, and there's a good reason why you're not allowed to
• 41:39
  pay a birth mother because children are not.
• 41:42
  You're not supposed to be able to buy human beings ever, ever,
• 41:45
  ever, ever. But that's exactly what's
• 41:47
  happening here. And people are just going la,
• 41:48
  la, la, pretending like it's not.
• 41:50
  So this is the headline. The babies kept in the New York
• 41:54
  in the excuse me, this is from The New Yorker.
• 41:56
  The babies kept in a mysterious Los Angeles mansion.
• 41:59
  Now more information has come out about this because what
• 42:01
  happened was last summer this news broke you're very familiar
• 42:04
  with this A wealthy couple obtained dozens of children
• 42:07
  through surrogates did they want a family or something else Now
• 42:11
  this is all about the surrogates like finding out and being so
• 42:13
  horrified oh, there's twenty other siblings how horrible
• 42:16
  what's going on No, the most horrible thing about this isn't
• 42:18
  the family size that's right. Technically you could have a
• 42:21
  family like, you know, I think about the Duggars, for example,
• 42:23
  19 and counting. And I know a number of like
• 42:25
  beautiful Catholic that was they get up to like 1213 kids.
• 42:27
  Like the issue is not the family size.
• 42:29
  Although when you have like if you go past 20, you're starting
• 42:32
  to get potentially unnaturally large because a woman has about
• 42:35
  20, maybe 25 years of fertility, maybe 30, you know, and
• 42:40
  typically you have a baby as you get older, you know, every two
• 42:43
  years is so there's a natural span for a woman to be able to
• 42:46
  have children. That's right.
• 42:48
  So to get past 20 kids in an intact household is highly
• 42:53
  unusual. It's like almost never going to
• 42:54
  happen. So there's a natural limitation
• 42:57
  to the number of kids. So but they're at 22.
• 42:59
  It wasn't 100, it was 22. It's still a lot, but like, OK,
• 43:02
  then. And then you have the the
• 43:03
  surrogates are being interviewed.
• 43:04
  I didn't know. I didn't know.
• 43:06
  OK, well, of course you didn't know because you gave your baby
• 43:08
  up. You sold.
• 43:09
  You sold your you sold your room Well and.
• 43:10
  Because there's no requirement to tell these surrogates
• 43:13
  anything about the intended parent.
• 43:15
  Well, it goes. It goes a lot in here about how
• 43:17
  there's this one surrogate that it follows and, you know, she's
• 43:22
  interacting with the mother, the adoptive mother, Sylvia, the
• 43:25
  purchaser, the purchaser who's this like Asian lady who shows
• 43:28
  up with this leather jacket at the hospital.
• 43:30
  And she's like handing out $100 bills to all the surrogates.
• 43:32
  And she thinks, oh, she's kind of an, you know, a little bit
• 43:34
  erratic, but, you know, she seems like on top of it.
• 43:37
  And, you know, she's just saying, well, she was so nice.
• 43:39
  She like gave me money. She like sent me a gift for my
• 43:41
  other kids. She was doing this with like,
• 43:43
  again, dozens and dozens of surrogates.
• 43:44
  But this was the part that really just sunk me.
• 43:47
  He was like, OK, what's what, what is their intention?
• 43:49
  And and their reason was, well, we just wanted a lot of kids
• 43:52
  like so it's still unclear. They're probing the case.
• 43:56
  But here is here is I would I would say a part of the big
• 43:59
  towel and it's buried in The New Yorker article.
• 44:02
  Like you have to like, you know, later on, child welfare cases
• 44:06
  are confidential. But given that Elliott knew
• 44:09
  Hayes full name and birth date and that she had recently given
• 44:12
  birth to her. Now, Elliott is one of the
• 44:14
  surrogate moms and Hayes was one of the children.
• 44:17
  She was able to get get through to a caseworker at the LA County
• 44:22
  Department of Child and Family Services.
• 44:23
  Now, again, the only reason The New Yorker knows this is because
• 44:26
  one of the surrogate moms did her own sleuthing and she was
• 44:28
  able to kind of bend the rules a little bit because she has no
• 44:30
  legal rights to this child, even though she should.
• 44:32
  But, you know, she, she relinquished them.
• 44:35
  And again, she's not the biological mother.
• 44:37
  She is the surrogate mother. So she just carried Hayes.
• 44:40
  The caseworker said that one of Sylvia and Gujon's infant sons
• 44:44
  had recently been hospitalized with head injuries.
• 44:46
  And I think this is this is what triggered the reporting because
• 44:49
  then police started an investigation.
• 44:51
  So this baby's in the hospital. What's going on?
• 44:54
  The baby had twenty siblings, the majority under three years
• 44:57
  old. That is unnatural.
• 45:00
  That's right. That's the thing when I talk
• 45:01
  about big families, it's impossible to have 20 kids under
• 45:04
  3. That's right.
• 45:05
  You have maybe at most 3 or 4 kids if you have like triplets
• 45:08
  or and you know you and then you have older kids if it's a big
• 45:11
  family that help care and there's this beautiful dynamism
• 45:13
  that happens in the household. That's not what's happening
• 45:15
  here. All of them, including Hayes,
• 45:18
  has have been taken into foster care.
• 45:20
  Thank God, by the way, because listen to this next part.
• 45:22
  As for the rumors about child trafficking, the FBI was looking
• 45:26
  into them. A police affidavit that began to
• 45:29
  circulate last summer offered further clues.
• 45:31
  It included included photographs of the hospitalized baby
• 45:33
  restrained by headgear, whose injuries were consistent with
• 45:36
  those sustained during a car accident or from being shaken.
• 45:39
  Stills from video recorded inside the home showed a
• 45:42
  makeshift classroom where toddlers sat in rows at tables
• 45:46
  facing a whiteboard. Who does this?
• 45:49
  All the children had shaved heads, and nannies could be seen
• 45:52
  physically disciplining them, forcing them into squats.
• 45:55
  Who does that for like a 2 year old, spanking them on top of a
• 45:58
  table and hitting them in the face.
• 46:00
  The surrogates searched for the children they'd carried, but the
• 46:02
  pictures were too blurry to make out individual features.
• 46:05
  So it was. It was an abuse House of
• 46:07
  horrors. So this is horrifying for a lot
• 46:11
  of reasons. And I've been on several
• 46:14
  interviews asking about it because I'm, I'm actually really
• 46:16
  glad The New Yorker spent the time to dig into this because it
• 46:19
  was so it was one of several shocking surrogacy related
• 46:23
  stories last summer. But you know, the news cycle
• 46:25
  moves on. And so I'm really glad that you,
• 46:27
  like, looked into this. I've been on several interviews
• 46:30
  about this over the last couple months and people like, this is
• 46:32
  just awful. This is a case of surrogacy gone
• 46:34
  wrong. And I'm like, misunderstand.
• 46:38
  This is surrogacy as designed. This is exactly what surrogacy
• 46:41
  is supposed to do. There's nothing illegal here.
• 46:44
  There's nothing unethical. What's not illegal is you're
• 46:46
  saying because it's illegal to abuse children.
• 46:48
  Thank God. Thank God for that.
• 46:49
  It's still illegal to abuse children.
• 46:51
  But what you're saying is not illegal is to pay 20 surrogates
• 46:53
  to give you 20 babies. There's no paperwork, nothing.
• 46:56
  I mean, there's paperwork, but there's no legal, you know,
• 46:58
  enforcement beyond that. And then you're you're you're do
• 47:00
  whatever you want basically with those the whole.
• 47:02
  Point is to sever children from well, the way I talk about it is
• 47:07
  what is surrogacy from the child's perspective.
• 47:10
  Surrogacy splice is what should be one person mother into 3
• 47:15
  purchasable and optional women. The genetic mother who
• 47:18
  contributes her egg that helps children answer the question
• 47:21
  about biological identity. That's critical when it comes to
• 47:24
  identity consolidation. It's very hard for kids to
• 47:28
  answer the question, who am I? If they can't answer the
• 47:31
  question, who's am I? Which is why in the United
• 47:35
  States today, 95% of adoptions are open adoptions because
• 47:39
  children benefit from as many connections to and a
• 47:42
  relationship with, when it's safe, their first family.
• 47:46
  The second mother is the birth mother.
• 47:48
  This is the woman with whom we formed that the neutral bond
• 47:52
  that the child can then build on throughout the rest of their
• 47:54
  life as it relates to trust and attachment.
• 47:56
  It's critical. And then the third is the social
• 47:59
  mother, the woman who provides that maternal love.
• 48:02
  That female satisfies the female hunger every day.
• 48:05
  So surrogacy splits up these three women.
• 48:08
  The child always loses their birth mother, sometimes their
• 48:11
  genetic mother, sometimes they don't have a social mother at
• 48:13
  all. OK, so that's what started. 20
• 48:14
  babies didn't have social mothers, they had abusive.
• 48:17
  They have nannies, babies, institutionalized scale of care.
• 48:21
  Now what is another detriment about the 2 girls being raised
• 48:25
  by the boy, by the two men and all these other children that
• 48:29
  are procured through sperm and egg donors and often surrogates
• 48:32
  is they have unrelated adults in the home.
• 48:36
  So we've been studying family structure for close to 50 years
• 48:41
  and we know something about what it takes for children to be safe
• 48:44
  and loved. And it is Raised by their own
• 48:47
  biological mother and father in a lifelong union in a low
• 48:50
  conflict relationship, scholars on the left and the right will
• 48:53
  say the biological parents are the most connected to, invested
• 48:57
  in and protective of them. What elevates risk for children?
• 49:02
  Unrelated adults in the home? If there's unrelated adults,
• 49:05
  especially new stepparents or boyfriends or girlfriends, risk
• 49:10
  of abuse and neglect increase. That's the very reason why
• 49:14
  adoptive parents go through vetting and screening because
• 49:16
  social workers are not idiots. You can't simply walked into
• 49:19
  adoption agency and say I intend to parent this.
• 49:21
  I'd love to be a parent. I really I want to be a mom.
• 49:23
  They won't hand you a child. They'll say thanks.
• 49:26
  You're actually a statistical danger to this kid.
• 49:28
  So we're going to come look at your house.
• 49:30
  We're going to ask your friends, we're going to get some
• 49:33
  fingerprints and then we'll decide whether or not you can
• 49:36
  adopt A child. There are heroic step parents
• 49:41
  out there who are filling the gap of a negligent biological
• 49:44
  parent, but anytime on a on a population wide level, if you
• 49:49
  have a family structure that includes an unrelated adult,
• 49:52
  what are you going to get? Massive skyrocketing rates of
• 49:57
  abuse and neglect. What do you what does it take to
• 49:59
  have 15 children under the age of three years old?
• 50:03
  Lots of unrelated adults in the home.
• 50:05
  So it's not unfortunately a surprise that these children
• 50:08
  were subjected to abuse because these other adults are not going
• 50:12
  to love and care for them and invest in them the way their own
• 50:14
  parents will, even if they're well paid, right?
• 50:16
  I mean, good heavens, the terrible videos that we've seen
• 50:19
  of children being abused in daycares recently, that is
• 50:22
  another example. They don't have the same level
• 50:24
  of investment and protectiveness as you will for your own kids.
• 50:28
  We have no idea even if these children are the genetic
• 50:30
  children of Sylvia Jiang and Shen Guojun.
• 50:33
  Like we don't know because nobody cares.
• 50:36
  Big Fertility doesn't ask. It actually is completely
• 50:38
  immaterial whether or not these babies go home to their genetic
• 50:41
  parents. In fact, it's preferable if they
• 50:43
  don't. A lot of these people don't have
• 50:45
  a sperm or an egg to create the baby.
• 50:48
  So the whole premise of surrogacy is commercial,
• 50:52
  intentional separation from mothers, the commodification of
• 50:56
  children. So this is not surrogacy gone
• 50:59
  wrong. This is surrogacy as designed.
• 51:03
  The whole design is to separate children and distribute them to
• 51:06
  anybody with a ballot contract. Well, I think to the way even
• 51:10
  this article is written and certainly the way that surrogacy
• 51:14
  is talked about in virtually all media today, and certainly how
• 51:17
  it's presented on social media by influencers, you're like, I
• 51:20
  did surrogacy and they're like the same sex couple.
• 51:22
  Whatever is, it's all about the experience of the adults.
• 51:26
  And there's almost nothing ever talked about the the only
• 51:29
  reference of the experience of the child in this entire New
• 51:32
  York article was that one line about the shaved heads.
• 51:35
  There's nothing about like any of what you're saying about the
• 51:37
  impact on these children lifelong about what other
• 51:40
  horrors they've been enduring. Nothing.
• 51:42
  The only time it mentioned sort of like stress on human beings
• 51:46
  besides these children for just that one line in this like very
• 51:49
  long, I don't know how many words it is, but it's multi
• 51:51
  pages of an article. Surrogates.
• 51:53
  It's all about the poor surrogates, poor girls that they
• 51:57
  they have the emotional baggage now of knowing that the babies
• 52:02
  that they help sell are now abused and they are suffering.
• 52:06
  Here's a nine surrogacy is The New Yorker again, I don't mean
• 52:08
  to hate on this this woman writing this article.
• 52:11
  Of course, God bless all of everyone, everyone including
• 52:14
  her. But it just shows the the utter
• 52:16
  blindness and it's why your work is so key.
• 52:18
  Katie. It she writes the author.
• 52:21
  Surrogacy requires a kind of emotional rigor.
• 52:24
  For who? Part of the job involves
• 52:26
  training oneself to not get too attached.
• 52:28
  Who's training? Why do you have to do that?
• 52:30
  Why do you have to untrain yourself to get attached?
• 52:32
  Do you think attachment is normal?
• 52:34
  Go ahead. And again, it's all about the
• 52:35
  woman. Forget, it's not about the rigor
• 52:38
  that surrogacy demands of the child, right?
• 52:40
  But the more the women learned about the intended parents, the
• 52:43
  more they started to wonder if the moral thing to do was to
• 52:45
  intervene. So the the entire question of
• 52:48
  morality in this article is framed about the dilemma.
• 52:50
  And again, again, I knew she was trying to look for a trendy
• 52:53
  angle, but the whole article instead about the morality of
• 52:56
  surrogacy is the moral questioning of the surrogates
• 52:59
  about whether or not they're allowed to intervene in the fact
• 53:02
  that the babies that they sold are now effectively being
• 53:04
  trafficked and they were abused. Yep.
• 53:06
  So that is the pattern. I will say every issue that we
• 53:10
  deal with, whether it is challenging gay marriage,
• 53:13
  whether it is objecting to no fault divorce laws, whether it
• 53:16
  is all the reproductive active technology, trending items, it
• 53:19
  is always obsessively focused on adults and what they want and
• 53:22
  how they feel and their backstories and their longings
• 53:24
  and their losses. The children, their rights,
• 53:28
  their needs, the way they've suffered, their wounds, their
• 53:31
  losses are secondary or completely ignored.
• 53:35
  And that is why we have all of these revolutions, the
• 53:39
  technological revolution. That's why we've had the legal
• 53:41
  revolution. We've overhauled parenthood,
• 53:43
  we've overhauled marriage to make it a vehicle of adult
• 53:45
  fulfillment. We've redefined parentage laws,
• 53:47
  which only is something that makes this possible.
• 53:50
  You know, we have completely changed the way we think about
• 53:53
  marriage and family culturally, because we've said if the adults
• 53:56
  are happy, the kids will be happy or kids are resilient or
• 53:58
  love makes a family, all of them is obsessively focused on
• 54:01
  adults. Nobody looks at it from the
• 54:03
  child's perspective. Nobody allows the child, gives
• 54:06
  them a voice, shares how they are going to be harmed if the
• 54:10
  adults get what they want. And so that's one reason why
• 54:13
  them before us is so unpopular because we really do work to
• 54:16
  say, well, in this situation, we're going to tell you how the
• 54:19
  child is going to be divorced if you run off with your trainer,
• 54:21
  but he's because he's the guy that really gets you.
• 54:23
  And my husband doesn't do 50% of the dishes and doesn't
• 54:25
  understand my unseen mental load.
• 54:28
  You know, whatever the divorce pornographers on Instagram,
• 54:31
  these women. That's a that's a good take,
• 54:33
  Katie. But, and now we're going into
• 54:36
  another very important thing I wanted to address in this
• 54:38
  interview, which is it's not just about, oh, same sex couples
• 54:42
  wanting to be married so they can adopt or create these kids
• 54:44
  via surrogacy and how problematic and harmful that is.
• 54:47
  And it's not just about these like more extreme cases of these
• 54:49
  babies that are in this, you know, mansion, but it's also
• 54:52
  about divorce. It's also about decisions and
• 54:55
  just, you know, other more normal marriages.
• 54:58
  Before we get to that though, I I want to ask you, and this is
• 55:01
  this is connected, of course, but I I need to ask you a couple
• 55:03
  things. First of all, in terms of the
• 55:06
  social data about the outcomes for children raised in same sex
• 55:10
  couples households versus more traditional households.
• 55:15
  There's a long standing narrative out there that says,
• 55:17
  oh, the data actually shows that if you're raised in the same sex
• 55:20
  household versus a traditional household with a mom and a dad,
• 55:23
  you're going to be just fine actually.
• 55:24
  And sometimes the outcomes are better.
• 55:26
  Yeah. Tell me about what the data
• 55:28
  actually says. The surveys that have been done
• 55:30
  over the last few decades actually say about outcomes for
• 55:33
  children raised with same sex parents versus.
• 55:35
  In a household with a mother and a father, good.
• 55:37
  This is actually something that everybody needs to know.
• 55:39
  You need to be able to answer this question because if you've
• 55:42
  ever been in a conversation, especially online with somebody
• 55:44
  and you're like, kids need mothers and fathers.
• 55:46
  Somebody is going to like 5 seconds later drop in the
• 55:49
  Cornell aggregate. Oh, 75 out of 79 studies to show
• 55:53
  that kids with two moms or two dads, fair, no different or even
• 55:56
  better. And you need to know how to
• 55:57
  answer that because that looks pretty damning.
• 55:59
  You know, it looks like, Oh well, you've got an airtight
• 56:01
  case at our then before a sub stack.
• 56:04
  I wrote a month and a half ago about those studies.
• 56:07
  I said, let's look at all 75 of those no different studies and
• 56:11
  let's just see how did they come to their conclusions?
• 56:13
  What kind of data did they pull? How did they get their
• 56:15
  information? Who did they invite into their
• 56:17
  studies? And this has been long known.
• 56:19
  A Heritage Foundation did a write up about this in 2015.
• 56:24
  But all of those studies that showed no differences, It's so
• 56:27
  strange because nobody was even asking the question about same
• 56:29
  sex parenting until Bergerfell, until like, that gay marriage
• 56:34
  legal regime came on the scene and they needed some kind of
• 56:37
  data to say, actually, the kids are going to be fine.
• 56:40
  And so you see this glut of studies arrive on the scenes in
• 56:43
  the, you know, really like 2008 to 2012, right?
• 56:48
  Suddenly there's just this explosion of studies.
• 56:51
  So when you look at the methodologies of those studies,
• 56:54
  what do you see? Like a gold standard would be,
• 56:57
  we are going to survey the actual outcomes of kids.
• 56:59
  We're going to look at their report cards or their medical
• 57:02
  records, or were they ever arrested?
• 57:04
  Were they on welfare? Did they have an IEP?
• 57:06
  We're going to get these people at random.
• 57:09
  We're going to like pull from government data.
• 57:11
  We're going to study them over a long period of time.
• 57:13
  We're going to have adequate control groups.
• 57:15
  That's kind of how you know whether or not the conclusion of
• 57:18
  the study is something that can be extrapolated for the general
• 57:20
  population. Of those 75 studies, do you know
• 57:24
  how many of them actually followed what we would consider
• 57:28
  to be the gold standard for scientific research?
• 57:31
  How? Many one.
• 57:32
  And what did the one find? It found that in cases of
• 57:36
  children raised by lesbians, there was no effect on the
• 57:40
  graduation rates. That's it.
• 57:43
  So that's graduation rates. Now the other 75, and I make a
• 57:46
  comment really quick, is that in part because if you're a lesbian
• 57:49
  couple and you go through the process of being able to adopt A
• 57:52
  child or do you're usually of means?
• 57:54
  Yes, And so it's probably a socioeconomic advantage.
• 57:57
  Did they control for that? That one I don't know if they
• 58:00
  did. But that would be interesting
• 58:02
  because if you're like, you know, again, if you're, if
• 58:04
  you're have more money, you're more, it's going to be much
• 58:06
  easier to, you know, usher a child through graduation, high
• 58:09
  school graduation. To be fair, there was another
• 58:12
  study done in the Netherlands in 2000 after this Cornell
• 58:15
  aggregate was formed that found the same thing.
• 58:18
  Lesbians in the Netherlands had children whose academics were
• 58:21
  not affected by having same sex parents.
• 58:24
  But again, that probably had to do with higher socioeconomic
• 58:27
  levels, not necessarily the absence of a father.
• 58:30
  But then you look at the other 74 studies and you're like,
• 58:33
  well, then how did these 74 studies, you know, they
• 58:36
  generally used recruited participants.
• 58:38
  It's the kind of thing where they went to the LGBTQ center
• 58:40
  and said, hey, we're doing a study on same sex parenting and
• 58:43
  how kids are fair. Who wants to who wants to
• 58:46
  participate in this? By the way, it could have
• 58:48
  implications for marriage equality in the future.
• 58:50
  And So what they would do is they would give these lesbians a
• 58:53
  survey and they'd be like, check off how's your kids doing in
• 58:55
  terms of health? Do they love having a same sex
• 58:57
  parent? Are they doing well in school?
• 58:59
  There was self reported data. It was the parents reporting how
• 59:02
  they felt like the children were doing while the kids were still
• 59:04
  in their home with. No objective measures beyond
• 59:07
  that. That's right.
• 59:08
  That's insane. That's insane.
• 59:10
  That's not following the science that is creating the bias.
• 59:12
  That's what it is. It's biased studies.
• 59:15
  And again, these were not randomly derived participants.
• 59:18
  They were recruited. And so it's interesting because
• 59:21
  of the studies that did not recruit their participants, all
• 59:25
  of them found disadvantage. OK, so let's talk about that.
• 59:27
  So you mentioned these 75 studies, 7 right, 75 Yep, 74 of
• 59:31
  them junk. It's just like, you know,
• 59:33
  basically promotional, yes, materials for probability.
• 59:37
  One of them is interesting about the lesbians when the higher
• 59:40
  probably higher socio economic who the kids have good outcomes
• 59:42
  with graduation doesn't get into identity disorders or mood
• 59:45
  disorders or you know anything else later in life.
• 59:47
  But that's interesting. What does the data outside of
• 59:51
  the Cornell meta study whatever say about same sex upbringings
• 59:56
  for kids versus in a more traditional household?
• 59:58
  This is the question, and the way that I help people think
• 1:00:01
  through this carefully, is whenever sociologists are
• 1:00:05
  studying any family structure other than same sex headed
• 1:00:09
  households, they all agree on several things #1 biological
• 1:00:14
  parents. They're the most connected to,
• 1:00:17
  invested in, They spend more time and money and protective of
• 1:00:20
  kids, less likely to abuse, less likely to even allow household
• 1:00:23
  accidents. They're more attentive to the
• 1:00:25
  children. Biological parents advantage
• 1:00:27
  children #2 mothering and fathering is different, like men
• 1:00:32
  and women offer distinct and complementary benefits to
• 1:00:36
  children. We just had this incredible
• 1:00:37
  study come out just this last week about a father's
• 1:00:40
  involvement when a child is 10 months old.
• 1:00:42
  The father's involvement at 10 months old had these incredible
• 1:00:45
  implications from when the child was four and five years old,
• 1:00:48
  different from what mother provided.
• 1:00:50
  There was something like what? What does that look like?
• 1:00:52
  It was levels of like cognitive development ability, resilience.
• 1:00:56
  Engagement with the child just. Engagement with the child and
• 1:00:58
  the mom, it didn't necessarily. She was sort of the baseline.
• 1:01:01
  It wasn't like more maternal love or more increased
• 1:01:04
  connection with mom changed anything.
• 1:01:06
  Mom was the baseline. What did dad provide?
• 1:01:09
  And he had these incredible benefits years later.
• 1:01:12
  Just by throwing a baby in the air, I mean I'm imagining what a
• 1:01:15
  dad interaction with dad interaction at 10 months.
• 1:01:17
  But let's talk about how they interact differently, why it's
• 1:01:20
  so beneficial to children. So mothers tend to care for
• 1:01:24
  kids. Fathers tend to play with kids
• 1:01:27
  and I will often illustrate this.
• 1:01:29
  What is it that mothers do that's so distinct?
• 1:01:32
  They promote attachment in children.
• 1:01:33
  We are constantly pulling them in, nurturing, soothing,
• 1:01:38
  connecting with, very concerned about the immediate emotional
• 1:01:40
  well-being, responsiveness to infant distress.
• 1:01:43
  That's like our lane. I even when I'm when, even when
• 1:01:46
  it's not my kids, I'll like be on a plane and a baby's crying,
• 1:01:49
  you're behind. Me.
• 1:01:50
  Give me the baby, I'll take care of them.
• 1:01:52
  I literally have gotten up and said, can I just do you mind if
• 1:01:56
  I is that OK? And sometimes the dad, he's
• 1:01:58
  like, you know, and. There's some here, the baby art.
• 1:02:01
  We hear a baby crying the night and my husband is like Uber
• 1:02:03
  sacrificial. He will do anything.
• 1:02:05
  But I'm the one who just jumps up.
• 1:02:06
  That's right, Because it's just that's I have to.
• 1:02:08
  She's my baby. I'm going to get her, you know.
• 1:02:10
  Erica Komazar, who wrote Being There, The Importance of
• 1:02:13
  Mothering in the First Three Years, talks about this study
• 1:02:15
  where they sign they like simulated baby cries.
• 1:02:19
  When a man and a woman were asleep together, asleep
• 1:02:22
  together, they simulated baby cry.
• 1:02:25
  Mom woke up immediately. Dad.
• 1:02:27
  Yeah. And then they simulated a sound
• 1:02:29
  that sounded like rustling in the leaves outside.
• 1:02:31
  Mom slipped through it, and Dad was like, let's fight.
• 1:02:33
  That's so funny. It's like our auditory
• 1:02:36
  differences manifest themselves in parenting too.
• 1:02:39
  Even in sleep. So moms tend to care for kids.
• 1:02:43
  Their natural interactions with kids lend themselves to children
• 1:02:46
  developing their fine motor skills.
• 1:02:48
  So it's with mom that they're coloring or they're cutting or
• 1:02:51
  they're pasting, they're using their fingers.
• 1:02:53
  What happens with dad interaction?
• 1:02:55
  He plays with kids, he wrestles with them, he throws them in the
• 1:03:00
  air. He runs up the street, he swings
• 1:03:02
  the hammer, he builds the tree house.
• 1:03:05
  Dad interactions develop children's gross motor skills.
• 1:03:08
  You see like this incredible balance.
• 1:03:10
  And there's no switch that a mom can flip to be like, now I'm
• 1:03:14
  going to toss my child in the air whenever I see them.
• 1:03:17
  Like I I'll do this all the time at conferences.
• 1:03:19
  I'll say, raise your hand if you've ever seen a baby thrown
• 1:03:21
  up in the air and everybody raises their hand.
• 1:03:24
  And I'll say, keep your hands up if the person throwing the baby
• 1:03:27
  was a woman. And two or three hands stay up
• 1:03:31
  out of, you know, a room of hundreds.
• 1:03:33
  Women don't throw babies. Men throw babies.
• 1:03:36
  Men throw babies in South Korea and South Carolina.
• 1:03:38
  Men like everywhere. And it's so important because
• 1:03:44
  mothers promote attachment, but fathers promote separation even
• 1:03:48
  in those early months of life. And it's critical to a whole and
• 1:03:51
  healthy development. So think about the kids with two
• 1:03:54
  mothers or two fathers. They're starved of either
• 1:03:57
  maternal or paternal love. Their development is going to be
• 1:04:01
  Hanford. They will either be missing that
• 1:04:05
  parent who everyday, all day, all throughout their childhood
• 1:04:08
  promotes attachment, even if you're not like swaddling and
• 1:04:11
  wearing them around the house. You know, I do tend to be the
• 1:04:14
  parent at home where the kids call me, where they're like
• 1:04:17
  trying to work out a relational conflict with a friend or
• 1:04:20
  something like that, right? They call their dad when they
• 1:04:22
  need a problem solved. They're like, I don't know how
• 1:04:24
  to transfer this money to the account, right?
• 1:04:26
  And he's encouraging them towards independence all the
• 1:04:29
  time. So you get these developmental
• 1:04:32
  distinctions with mother and father.
• 1:04:33
  Sociologists agree on that. Men and women are different.
• 1:04:35
  So biological parents distinctly invest, mothers and fathers
• 1:04:39
  distinctly develop. And then you've got the aspect
• 1:04:44
  of maternal or paternal loss. A child in a home with two
• 1:04:47
  mothers or two fathers have lost their mother or father either to
• 1:04:50
  death, divorce, abandonment, or commercially at conception.
• 1:04:57
  When you study each of those independently, children don't
• 1:05:01
  rise to the level of the well-being of their kid, their
• 1:05:04
  peers raised by their married mother and father.
• 1:05:07
  Maternal or paternal loss through death, divorce,
• 1:05:10
  abandonment or third party reproduction always hinders
• 1:05:13
  kids. And 4th unrelated adults in the
• 1:05:16
  home always increase risk of abuse and neglect.
• 1:05:19
  It doesn't mean they're always going to be abused and
• 1:05:20
  neglected, but it will always increase risk.
• 1:05:23
  So much so that sociologist Brad Wilcox, who I know you
• 1:05:26
  interviewed, said the most dangerous place a child can find
• 1:05:30
  themselves in the country today is in the home of an unrelated
• 1:05:34
  man left to care for the child himself.
• 1:05:37
  So take those 4 sociological truisms, what we know about
• 1:05:42
  children, what we know about family structure, and then lay
• 1:05:46
  that over the top of same sex parented homes, they're always
• 1:05:50
  missing at least one biological parent.
• 1:05:52
  Lower levels of investment, connection and protection.
• 1:05:55
  They're always raised by an unrelated adult, increased risk
• 1:05:58
  of abuse and neglect. They're always suffering
• 1:06:00
  maternal or paternal loss, death, divorce, abandonment,
• 1:06:03
  abandonment, third party reproduction.
• 1:06:05
  They're always starved of maternal or paternal love.
• 1:06:09
  Any study that says that kids fear no different is a
• 1:06:14
  sociological miracle it it does not exist in the real.
• 1:06:17
  World it doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist too on top of that
• 1:06:20
  it. Can't.
• 1:06:21
  Exist, have have there been? It's like, can we do a study and
• 1:06:25
  prove that gravity doesn't exist?
• 1:06:26
  Well, you could manipulate, you know, research and put yourself
• 1:06:29
  in a air, you know, a weightless room and you're floating around.
• 1:06:32
  You're like, gravity doesn't exist.
• 1:06:33
  It's like you were in the weightless room.
• 1:06:36
  So like Katy Perry, you know, going to the going out, out of
• 1:06:39
  orbit on the spaceship. You know, she's floating, but
• 1:06:42
  she's out of orbit is the point, right.
• 1:06:44
  So, but have there been studies that have been done of large
• 1:06:49
  sets of same sex couples that were not that followed gold
• 1:06:53
  standard? You know, were the gold done in
• 1:06:55
  the gold standard way, you know, with a, with the right control
• 1:06:58
  groups that show outcomes? I mean, yes.
• 1:07:00
  And what do we see? There have been a couple stand
• 1:07:04
  out. Studies and those are probably
• 1:07:05
  controversial to do. They probably don't want to do
• 1:07:07
  those. Oh my gosh.
• 1:07:09
  The first one was done by Mark Regnerus in 2012.
• 1:07:12
  Oh, he got hated for that one. They just, they wanted to
• 1:07:15
  destroy him. They wanted to destroy his
• 1:07:18
  study. They wanted to destroy his
• 1:07:20
  career. I remember that they wanted to
• 1:07:21
  destroy him and they meeting the LGBT lobby.
• 1:07:24
  Yeah, well, all of academia. All of academia.
• 1:07:27
  I mean, there has been complete institutional capture in
• 1:07:30
  academia, especially among the soft sciences.
• 1:07:33
  And they relentlessly tried to destroy him.
• 1:07:36
  He stood firm, Thank God his his university stood behind him.
• 1:07:40
  And he's been so vindicated, like his methodology and
• 1:07:44
  conclusions have withstood, even under incredible scrutiny.
• 1:07:48
  So what? What did his study show?
• 1:07:50
  Well, he found his participants at random.
• 1:07:55
  He actually talked to the kids themselves when they were old
• 1:07:58
  enough to report what they had experienced.
• 1:08:02
  He used adequate control groups. And what did he find?
• 1:08:06
  Higher levels of violence, higher levels of sexual abuse,
• 1:08:09
  sexual assault, lower levels of academic attainment, higher
• 1:08:13
  levels of welfare dependency, higher levels of delinquency and
• 1:08:16
  substance abuse. I mean it was like 27 different
• 1:08:19
  markers where once you actually used robust methodologies the no
• 1:08:23
  difference turned into massive detrimental difference.
• 1:08:27
  All right. Quick question about the Mark
• 1:08:28
  Regnera study. So when you say the control
• 1:08:31
  group versus, you know, the, the, the reported data by the
• 1:08:34
  child when they're old enough to report it and it's randomized,
• 1:08:39
  who was the control group? Was the control group just
• 1:08:43
  anybody that's not a same sex parent?
• 1:08:44
  It was. A heterosexual married.
• 1:08:46
  Couple. It was a mother and a father.
• 1:08:47
  Their own biological mother and father, Yes.
• 1:08:49
  And that's another problem. A lot of the, you know, when
• 1:08:52
  you're talking about surrogacy research because we were like,
• 1:08:54
  well, what? Where's the data showing that
• 1:08:56
  kids are harmed through surrogacy?
• 1:08:58
  Well, first of all, we don't do that research because it's
• 1:09:01
  actually unethical to separate children from their mothers.
• 1:09:04
  We are not allowed to test this on human infants because it's
• 1:09:07
  considered unethical. So most of the information we
• 1:09:10
  have about mother deprivation is from rodents because we're fine
• 1:09:15
  separating those pups from their mothers, but we won't do it to
• 1:09:17
  human infants. But even then those studies,
• 1:09:20
  they don't compare children with heterosexual biological parents.
• 1:09:24
  Often times it's with other IVF created children where you're
• 1:09:27
  like, well that's not an adequate control.
• 1:09:29
  So the controls really matter. Controls matter.
• 1:09:30
  And I think the other point here, because people might be
• 1:09:32
  listening and saying, well, OK, maybe it's not as ideal as being
• 1:09:37
  raised in the household with your biological mother, your
• 1:09:40
  biological father. They love each other and they've
• 1:09:42
  staying together because, well, what about all the couples that
• 1:09:45
  divorce? What about all the heterosexual
• 1:09:47
  couples where one abandons the other?
• 1:09:49
  What about the ones where whatever I mean divorce or
• 1:09:52
  abandonment would be the two things right And your your
• 1:09:56
  response to that would be? You, that's the right
• 1:09:58
  comparison. Yeah, that's exactly the right
• 1:10:00
  comparison. Because children with two
• 1:10:01
  mothers or two fathers, it's just another form of broken
• 1:10:04
  home, right? The child has to lose their
• 1:10:06
  mother or father either full time or part time to accommodate
• 1:10:10
  what the adults want. That's right.
• 1:10:12
  And people throw that, you know, objection all the time.
• 1:10:15
  Well, you must be so concerned about divorce.
• 1:10:17
  That's why you're I'm like I am. Now I have.
• 1:10:19
  Been writing about this forever. In terms of adoption, Katie has
• 1:10:22
  it and you were going to mention other studies, so I do want to
• 1:10:24
  go back to that. But before we move on from this
• 1:10:26
  first study, was there a study done comparing a same sex couple
• 1:10:30
  adopting a child versus a heterosexual couple adopting a
• 1:10:36
  child? Because in both those cases,
• 1:10:37
  you're going to deal with biological disconnection, right?
• 1:10:41
  No, I haven't seen that would be.
• 1:10:42
  Specifically, I mean, I know what the I know what the results
• 1:10:44
  will say. I already know.
• 1:10:46
  But it would be nice to have that to just prove because I
• 1:10:49
  think there is an argument made when it comes to adoption.
• 1:10:51
  Let's just, let's just say everybody agrees.
• 1:10:52
  Listening to the show right now. Oh, yeah.
• 1:10:54
  Commercial fertility, like, you know, surrogacy.
• 1:10:57
  Yeah. It's all bad.
• 1:10:57
  It's being done. It needs to stop.
• 1:11:00
  We agree. We all agree.
• 1:11:02
  Well, but gays should, should they be allowed to adopt?
• 1:11:04
  Why can't gays adopt? Well, they're still
• 1:11:06
  intentionally severing that child from a future mother or
• 1:11:08
  father, and so any data that shows mother or father issues is
• 1:11:13
  going to show up somehow in that data if the study is done
• 1:11:16
  correctly. Adopted children are usually
• 1:11:19
  raised by parents who are wealthier, better educated, and
• 1:11:25
  who even spend more time with their children compared to the
• 1:11:29
  average heterosexual married biological parent.
• 1:11:32
  So adoptive parents are actually bring advantages to they tend to
• 1:11:36
  have more stable marriages too. They break up less often, and
• 1:11:39
  yet adoptees still don't fare as well, even if they're raised by
• 1:11:42
  loving, heterosexual, biological, I'm sorry, loving
• 1:11:45
  heterosexual adoptive parents, a mother and a father.
• 1:11:50
  They don't fare as well as as the ideal.
• 1:11:52
  They don't fare as well as children raised by their married
• 1:11:54
  biological mother and father, even though the adoptive parents
• 1:11:57
  bring some measurable advantages to the.
• 1:12:00
  Child, They probably fare better than being raised by a single
• 1:12:04
  mother who in that case didn't want to parent because, you
• 1:12:08
  know, and I'm just saying if adoption was God forbid,
• 1:12:11
  illegal, right, or something like this, and a single mother
• 1:12:14
  courageously chooses life, she doesn't abort, thank God.
• 1:12:16
  And she's like, well, I can't adopt this child out.
• 1:12:19
  You know, the point is that the child, despite having it be the
• 1:12:22
  Plan B, the plan C is, is not as good as Plan B and plan C,
• 1:12:28
  meaning single mothers trying to do this.
• 1:12:30
  She doesn't want to be doing this.
• 1:12:31
  She's not motivated. And then there's a lot of other
• 1:12:34
  issues going on. And again, I'm not knocking some
• 1:12:36
  heroic single mothers who've done a phenomenal job.
• 1:12:38
  You know, Doctor Sears works on my project over at Chaley that
• 1:12:42
  we're going to be launching. And he was raised by a single
• 1:12:44
  mother, father of eight, grandfather of a dozen, plus,
• 1:12:47
  you know, doing phenomenal work to help families.
• 1:12:49
  So it's not saying you can't be raised by a single mother and be
• 1:12:51
  successful. But what we are saying is like
• 1:12:53
  the data shows the ideal is the ideal and that's what we should
• 1:12:56
  be. That's.
• 1:12:56
  Right. You know, promoting ultimately.
• 1:12:58
  And we, you know, when you look at like race of abuse, there is
• 1:13:04
  data that comes from the 4th National Incidence of Child
• 1:13:07
  Abuse study from the United States from 2010.
• 1:13:10
  I think it's the last wave of information that we have.
• 1:13:12
  And it shows that the lowest rates of abuse are children
• 1:13:15
  raised by their married biological mother and father.
• 1:13:18
  The second lowest is a single mother.
• 1:13:20
  It is increased, but it's not drastically higher.
• 1:13:24
  It is when you start including unrelated adults in the home
• 1:13:26
  that you start to see radical increased.
• 1:13:28
  Rates of the single mother has live in boyfriends.
• 1:13:31
  That is the. Number one problem, yeah, but if
• 1:13:33
  you're a single mother and you're being really smart,
• 1:13:36
  you're chased. You're like, I'm not going to be
• 1:13:37
  having men in the home unless I vetted them and married them and
• 1:13:40
  they're like adopting my child right then that that the child
• 1:13:43
  can fare well. That's right.
• 1:13:45
  That's that's a great distinction.
• 1:13:46
  It's. And so I, you know, I know that
• 1:13:50
  I'm an adoptive mom. I believe that adoption, I know
• 1:13:52
  that adoption can be redemptive, but I am totally in support of
• 1:13:57
  a, a young mother who's pregnant who wants to keep her baby.
• 1:14:02
  Then we get in on it with her and we all support her because
• 1:14:07
  that baby needs that woman and that baby's made for that woman
• 1:14:11
  and another for her. And if we can get around them
• 1:14:13
  and support the mom and the baby, outcomes for the child are
• 1:14:19
  going to it's there's hurdles for sure, single mothers, lots
• 1:14:23
  and lots of hurdles, but it doesn't it's not necessarily
• 1:14:25
  better. You can't just automatically
• 1:14:27
  say, well, it's better if she remarries or even it's better if
• 1:14:31
  the child is adopted. There's a lot of variables when
• 1:14:34
  it comes to adoption as well. And so it's really just who's
• 1:14:38
  doing the hard thing on behalf of children.
• 1:14:40
  A lot of women are single mothers because they were the
• 1:14:43
  only parent willing to do hard things for kids.
• 1:14:45
  And sometimes the hard thing is relinquishing the child for
• 1:14:48
  adoption and then the adoptive parents do hard things for the
• 1:14:50
  children, even though those kids do tend to experience a lot more
• 1:14:54
  challenges when it comes to emotional challenges or academic
• 1:14:57
  challenges or behavioral challenges.
• 1:14:59
  I. Went down a little bit of a
• 1:15:01
  rabbit show, but a good one. What was the you you were going
• 1:15:03
  to mention a second study after Rick Mark?
• 1:15:05
  Rick Naris's 2012 study. Yeah, Doctor Paul Sullins did 2
• 1:15:09
  great studies. One used more data and had more
• 1:15:13
  participants than any of the no different studies combined.
• 1:15:16
  He pulled from U.S. data and had like it was like 2,000,000
• 1:15:20
  different samples and from that he got like 520 children with
• 1:15:23
  same sex parents and used the gold standard.
• 1:15:27
  And what he found was drastically different rates of
• 1:15:29
  especially emotional distress in children where they had higher
• 1:15:33
  rates of daily fearfulness and crying and and mistrust for
• 1:15:37
  parents. And this should be no surprise
• 1:15:40
  to us at all, right? Then he reconfigured another
• 1:15:44
  study that had long been touted as one of those no difference
• 1:15:47
  studies, Wainwright and Patterson, that had been kind of
• 1:15:50
  used as the flagship study showing that kids fair no
• 1:15:53
  different. He realized, hey, I'm going to
• 1:15:55
  look at this because that's so weird that you are getting that
• 1:15:58
  that conclusion is so out of step with the rest of the data.
• 1:16:01
  So he actually went back and looked at the original samples
• 1:16:04
  and realized that Wainwright and Patterson had misidentified some
• 1:16:07
  of the couples in the studies attributing same sex when it
• 1:16:11
  actually wasn't a same sex couple.
• 1:16:12
  And when he corrected the numbers, he found that these
• 1:16:15
  kids fare much worse where you had been saying Wainwright and
• 1:16:19
  Patterson that they would fare no different.
• 1:16:20
  They're actually faring much worse.
• 1:16:22
  And one thing that that showed, it's the only study that I know
• 1:16:25
  of that shows differences between cohabiting same sex
• 1:16:29
  couples and married same sex couples.
• 1:16:33
  It's a small sample size but the data was good comparing outcomes
• 1:16:39
  of kids with married same sex parents and unmarried same sex
• 1:16:41
  parents, and the kids with unmarried same sex parents did
• 1:16:44
  better and the kids with married same.
• 1:16:47
  Sex, parents like they were married, basically.
• 1:16:49
  Well, I that's what that is. I asked Doctor Solis.
• 1:16:51
  I'm like, what do you think that is?
• 1:16:53
  And he said probably because the kids with cohabiting same sex
• 1:16:56
  parents still had some kind of connection with their missing
• 1:16:59
  parent, whereas the married parents, the kids with same sex
• 1:17:03
  married parents, probably had very little contact.
• 1:17:05
  Maybe it was missing third party reproduction?
• 1:17:07
  Right. Much more likely.
• 1:17:08
  To that would be an interesting study to do too.
• 1:17:10
  It would be great to have data on, but no.
• 1:17:11
  One wants to study this part of the problem.
• 1:17:13
  It's too costly. In every way.
• 1:17:16
  Mostly it's costly professionally, politically, but
• 1:17:18
  it costs money to do a good study and the people that have
• 1:17:21
  the money to fund this a good study would never fund it.
• 1:17:24
  All right, before we talk about a Bergerfeld and we talk about
• 1:17:27
  greater than your new campaign, I want to ask you a little bit
• 1:17:31
  about divorce. Yes, this is very controversial
• 1:17:34
  that we're going to move on. I think it's very clear that we
• 1:17:37
  should not be permitting same sex adoption.
• 1:17:40
  I don't think we should be permitting same sex third party
• 1:17:42
  reproduction. I think 3 third party
• 1:17:44
  reproduction in and of itself is problematic and should it be
• 1:17:46
  permitted? Ban the whole fan surrogacy ban,
• 1:17:48
  IVF ban at all? And people listening maybe that
• 1:17:51
  sounds shocking when I just said what I just said because we're
• 1:17:53
  so again, obsessed with doing what the adult just wants to do.
• 1:17:57
  I have the choice. I have the right to bring if I
• 1:17:59
  can pay enough money. I have the right to bring a
• 1:18:01
  child in the world however I please.
• 1:18:02
  No you don't, right? There's a natural order to
• 1:18:05
  things and children, like you're saying, deserve a mother and a
• 1:18:09
  father when at all possible. You know, obviously it could be
• 1:18:11
  death or some accident or some abuse that might separate that,
• 1:18:14
  but you don't intentionally create children to then deprive
• 1:18:17
  them of what they're what they deserve, Right?
• 1:18:19
  So, but let's talk about divorce because I mean, we'll say, well,
• 1:18:22
  you're just you're, you're a homophobe.
• 1:18:23
  This is about you don't not liking same sex couples.
• 1:18:26
  No, it has nothing to do with that.
• 1:18:27
  We're talking about you, you, you, your mother is living in a
• 1:18:29
  same sex relationship. You love her dearly.
• 1:18:32
  It's not about personal animus against any person or their
• 1:18:35
  lifestyle or anything. It is about what is best for
• 1:18:37
  children. That being said, divorce is, I
• 1:18:41
  don't know if it's an all time high.
• 1:18:43
  I think it's actually leveled off in the last few years, which
• 1:18:45
  is good. The 50% divorce rate.
• 1:18:47
  I don't think that's the accurate data either, which is
• 1:18:49
  good. We do know though, that since no
• 1:18:51
  fault divorce and I would say just as importantly, since the
• 1:18:54
  sexual revolution, divorce has ballooned in this country and
• 1:18:58
  you see almost daily a story about some celebrity or some
• 1:19:02
  like buddy who's a divorce apologist talking about how we
• 1:19:06
  grew apart. So there's no serious abuse or
• 1:19:10
  neglect. This is like we don't like each
• 1:19:12
  other anymore, or our careers don't align anymore, or like we
• 1:19:15
  just don't want to do the same things anymore.
• 1:19:17
  Chapter of our life has ended. Right, we still love each other.
• 1:19:19
  We're going to Co parent and then part of the diverse apology
• 1:19:23
  is always we're going to be private now for the sake of our
• 1:19:26
  like as if it's all for their kids.
• 1:19:27
  Like no, you just, you did something shameful.
• 1:19:29
  You don't want to this. Is not about your kids,
• 1:19:32
  obviously, it's about you. Now, I want to start off by
• 1:19:35
  saying, and I know you're going to agree with this, I'm not
• 1:19:38
  talking about serious abuse. And people would say, well,
• 1:19:42
  Lila, the difference between abuse and serious abuse, All
• 1:19:45
  abuse is serious if it's really abuse.
• 1:19:47
  So I'm not one for like, oh, it's emotionally abusive If I
• 1:19:50
  raise my voice with my husband or if I'm irritated with him, I
• 1:19:53
  think it's wrong and I shouldn't do that.
• 1:19:55
  But abuse, I think is when we're going to talk about abuse, I
• 1:19:59
  think we should define it as something it's it's a serious
• 1:20:01
  action. It's not like, ohh, I made my
• 1:20:04
  wife do the dishes or I was tired and went to bed and left
• 1:20:06
  the house and mess. Like, yeah, unfortunately these
• 1:20:08
  things get blurred. But I also don't want to
• 1:20:11
  downplay the significance of abuse, right?
• 1:20:13
  Because there's also situations where like, well, I'm not
• 1:20:15
  abusing you. And they've basically isolated
• 1:20:17
  this person that took her money. Like lock her up sometimes.
• 1:20:21
  Don't let her have friendships with her family.
• 1:20:22
  Like it like that's, you know, could be abuse in a situation of
• 1:20:26
  control or neglect. So what is the reality of the
• 1:20:29
  impact of divorce on children? OK.
• 1:20:32
  I'm glad you started out with, hey, there are times where a
• 1:20:35
  marriage might need to end. We used to call that at fault
• 1:20:38
  divorce somebody was at fault for violating their vows that
• 1:20:43
  they made to having to hold through sickness and in health
• 1:20:45
  for richer for poorer to death. You part.
• 1:20:47
  It was supposed to be this mutual full self giving through
• 1:20:51
  thick or thin, and we're going to stay together no matter what
• 1:20:54
  unless somebody's being really significantly hurt, objectively
• 1:20:59
  hurt. Not just I'm going to call him a
• 1:21:01
  narcissist because I feel like he's.
• 1:21:04
  He's not doing the dishes. Yeah, he's not doing the dishes.
• 1:21:06
  OK. You and I both agree that those
• 1:21:08
  terms of abuse or narcissism is overplayed, I would say so that
• 1:21:13
  people can justify an easy exit from their marriage.
• 1:21:16
  So we're not talking about that. We're talking about there are
• 1:21:18
  really cases where people are at fault and sometimes the marriage
• 1:21:22
  at minimum needs a separation, sometimes needs to come to an
• 1:21:24
  end. What were those cases where we
• 1:21:27
  would say, yeah, that actually justifies ending a marriage?
• 1:21:30
  So you're saying before no fault divorce was legalized?
• 1:21:32
  When was that the? Fault.
• 1:21:33
  The 60 9 was the first time that we had.
• 1:21:35
  We first started in California. Yeah, Governor Ronald, Governor
• 1:21:39
  Ronald Reagan passed the first no fault divorce law in 69.
• 1:21:43
  He would later come to say it was his biggest political
• 1:21:45
  mistake because it did not have the effect that he thought that
• 1:21:49
  it would have. But before we had no fault
• 1:21:51
  divorce, we would say divorce can happen in cases of adultery,
• 1:21:57
  addiction, abuse, abandonment. Somebody has really violated
• 1:22:02
  their vows, and then what would happen?
• 1:22:04
  The innocent party would receive favor from the courts in terms
• 1:22:09
  of alimony, in terms of child support, and especially in
• 1:22:12
  custody. Custody in terms of social
• 1:22:15
  support. The person who is at fault is
• 1:22:18
  stigmatized and punished, and the faithful innocent spouse was
• 1:22:21
  rewarded. OK, that's at fault divorce.
• 1:22:24
  So then in 69 we passed no fault divorce soon after that.
• 1:22:28
  What was the reason for that? Why?
• 1:22:31
  Because people wanted the marriage to end, but nobody had
• 1:22:34
  been at fault. Nobody committed adultery.
• 1:22:36
  Nobody was an addict. But they're like, but gosh.
• 1:22:40
  You don't really want to be. Married anymore and so it's
• 1:22:42
  really uncomfortable because if we want to get a divorce, one of
• 1:22:44
  us has to. Or there's an affair, but one of
• 1:22:46
  the one of the spouses wants to make it work.
• 1:22:50
  I mean, this happens too, right? Or this would happen and if the
• 1:22:53
  person is having the affair, they couldn't call off the
• 1:22:55
  divorce. It would have to be the other
• 1:22:56
  partner, right? With fault divorce.
• 1:22:57
  So they were. There's just a way that if they
• 1:23:00
  want to escape without anybody being punished or blamed, then
• 1:23:03
  they want to split things evenly.
• 1:23:05
  They would have to lie and say somebody here has committed an
• 1:23:09
  offense that justifies a divorce, and then that person
• 1:23:12
  would be punished socially or legally.
• 1:23:15
  And so it was really an avenue of adult convenience.
• 1:23:19
  And what did that lead to? It communicated that marriage is
• 1:23:25
  not an institution and it really is not important for the kids.
• 1:23:29
  That was the first time that we legally communicated this is
• 1:23:32
  about adult happiness. And if you cease to be happy, it
• 1:23:36
  can cease to be a marriage. And so when we think about
• 1:23:39
  marriage, there's three different characteristics of
• 1:23:42
  marriage that distinguish it from all of our other human
• 1:23:46
  relationships, from our relationships with our parents,
• 1:23:48
  relationships with our siblings, relationships with our tennis
• 1:23:51
  partner, relationship with our business partner.
• 1:23:53
  OK, what are those 3 characteristics?
• 1:23:56
  This relationship, marriage is marked by three things.
• 1:23:59
  The first one is permanence. It's supposed to be until death.
• 1:24:02
  The second one is complementarity.
• 1:24:04
  It requires both halves of the human species to be involved,
• 1:24:08
  and the third one is monogamy. It's only supposed to be those
• 1:24:13
  two people excluding all others, forsaking all others.
• 1:24:17
  And we can get into it if you want, but those 3 attributes
• 1:24:20
  were not plucked out of the ether.
• 1:24:22
  They actually have very, very specific child benefits that go
• 1:24:25
  along with it. We didn't just go, let's just
• 1:24:27
  make up these different characteristics for marriage.
• 1:24:29
  All of them are very specifically tied to child
• 1:24:32
  well-being. So no fault divorce was the
• 1:24:35
  first time that we actually redefined marriage.
• 1:24:38
  We said we don't need permanence.
• 1:24:41
  We'll keep the complementarity and the monogamy, but it doesn't
• 1:24:44
  need to be until death do us part.
• 1:24:46
  So what did that communicate? It communicated.
• 1:24:48
  This isn't. This isn't the building block of
• 1:24:51
  society. This is a vehicle of adult
• 1:24:53
  fulfillment. And if you cease to be happy, it
• 1:24:55
  can cease to be a marriage. And the kids just have to suck
• 1:24:57
  it up. And the kids, they're going to
• 1:24:59
  love it because now they have two Christmases, right?
• 1:25:02
  Those lucky kids. Divorce propaganda?
• 1:25:04
  No, there's more. Adults than love.
• 1:25:06
  Them. Yeah, a bonus parent.
• 1:25:07
  That's right. And kids are resilient.
• 1:25:09
  They'll get over it. I mean, we had all of these
• 1:25:12
  different mantras going back to the divorce era of if the adults
• 1:25:15
  are happy, the kids will be happy.
• 1:25:16
  Well, kids don't want unhappy parents.
• 1:25:18
  They would rather have divorced parents who are happy.
• 1:25:20
  Well, like, let me just say, the gay marriage world just took all
• 1:25:23
  those arguments, recycled them and applied them to the
• 1:25:25
  destruction of the second component, which was
• 1:25:27
  complementarity. They said, well, if, if marriage
• 1:25:32
  is a vehicle of adult fulfillment, if we don't need
• 1:25:34
  permanence, well, we don't need complementarity because being
• 1:25:37
  married to somebody of the same sex makes me happy.
• 1:25:40
  And if marriage is just about adult fulfillment, this is what
• 1:25:42
  fulfills me. And now of course, you see the
• 1:25:45
  polygamists and the promoters of open non monogamy talking about
• 1:25:49
  how well we don't need monogamous marriage either,
• 1:25:52
  right? That's hinders my fulfillment
• 1:25:54
  and my happiness. So yes, divorce is damaging for
• 1:25:58
  children because children need the permanence that marriage
• 1:26:02
  brings to their family in their home.
• 1:26:04
  Now, do you think that at the time when no fault divorce took
• 1:26:08
  it on its own political, you know, actualization right first
• 1:26:13
  in California and then it became nationalized?
• 1:26:16
  Do you think that there them some of the critics of only for
• 1:26:19
  fault divorce were that well, in a situation of abuse, she
• 1:26:23
  doesn't have proof and so she's not able to get out and she's
• 1:26:26
  left penniless and or he's like this crazy narcissistic abuser.
• 1:26:30
  And so he's able to hide all of the abuse and he's like really
• 1:26:34
  persuasive in court and he's the one with the bank account and
• 1:26:36
  she doesn't like. So there were these sob stories
• 1:26:39
  that helped, you know, mainstream this not just those.
• 1:26:43
  There were other stories to like, well, I'm just I don't
• 1:26:45
  want the marriage. I should have the right to
• 1:26:46
  divorce. That was more prevalent.
• 1:26:48
  But they're worse for the people that are maybe more like, I
• 1:26:50
  don't want to do it for adult happiness.
• 1:26:53
  There were the sob stories of these cases of these women or,
• 1:26:55
  you know, or a man, but mostly women who weren't able to get
• 1:26:58
  the divorce that they desperately needed for their
• 1:27:00
  safety or their security. So that's real.
• 1:27:02
  It is real that in a case of abuse, I mean, you know, I've
• 1:27:05
  walked through this. We've been in ministry for a
• 1:27:07
  long time. So I have walked through cases
• 1:27:10
  where people are in situations where you're like, OK, that's
• 1:27:13
  obvious abuse or that looks really close, what is going on
• 1:27:17
  there? And then you have to get in it
• 1:27:18
  and be like, how can we help you?
• 1:27:20
  What's happening? Like what's even real?
• 1:27:21
  And a lot of times it is true. It is hard for women to prove
• 1:27:24
  abuse sometimes. Sometimes the the process of
• 1:27:28
  collecting information so that they can prove abuse is
• 1:27:33
  dangerous or makes them remain in a situation where you're
• 1:27:37
  like, I'm not sure if this is dangerous or not, but I'm right
• 1:27:40
  on the edge. And the stakes are so high.
• 1:27:42
  The stakes are high because it's their potential physical safety
• 1:27:45
  and their kids say, but it's also custody, yes, because they
• 1:27:48
  again, in the in the before no fault divorce, if the woman is
• 1:27:52
  asking for the divorce, she could lose custody.
• 1:27:54
  She could lose everything, but she's asking for it for the sake
• 1:27:57
  of safety. That's right.
• 1:27:58
  But she can't prove that it's her safety.
• 1:27:59
  Yes. So when people say, yeah, but
• 1:28:02
  without no fault divorce, it will be harder for women to
• 1:28:04
  leave abusive husbands, that's true.
• 1:28:07
  There are times where it is more difficult to leave without a no
• 1:28:09
  fault divorce. I know women who have used no
• 1:28:12
  fault divorce to make a quick, clean exit from somebody that
• 1:28:16
  was very clearly abusive. That's true.
• 1:28:18
  And that is a problem that you have to contend with.
• 1:28:20
  But then, but just to add to that, then they're dealing with
• 1:28:23
  custody because if there's no fault in the.
• 1:28:25
  Divorce. This is the problem.
• 1:28:27
  They're still going to have to prove everything for custody.
• 1:28:29
  So I know cases personally, and it's a this is kind of like the
• 1:28:33
  there's always another problem with skipping over the first
• 1:28:35
  problem. And what I know multiple cases
• 1:28:38
  personally where they did the no fault divorce, they were being
• 1:28:40
  abused, there's an abusive situation, they did the no fault
• 1:28:42
  divorce, but then the. Child is still living with the
• 1:28:45
  abusive spouse. Part time and that the mom's not
• 1:28:48
  there to like monitor anything and she's like praying to God
• 1:28:52
  and and begging that she can get custody.
• 1:28:54
  And this is of course why some women still to this day stay
• 1:28:56
  with the abuser to to to watch over the kids because of the
• 1:29:00
  fear of losing custody. So it's not like no fault
• 1:29:02
  divorce solved that problem. It might have given a quicker
• 1:29:06
  exit for for for mom, but now it actually might endanger kids,
• 1:29:10
  maybe more potentially if she can't get the custody that she
• 1:29:13
  deserves. And that's where, you know,
• 1:29:15
  we're not we're not. We haven't solved the problem
• 1:29:17
  with no fault divorce. We've kind of punted the ball
• 1:29:19
  maybe. On that issue, we've punted.
• 1:29:21
  But what No Fault Divorce did is it created unquestionably more
• 1:29:28
  significant, dangerous situations for more kids.
• 1:29:31
  And why do I? Say that objectively speaking,
• 1:29:33
  I'm saying. Objectively speaking, because
• 1:29:37
  now what happens post divorce, now there's new partners, new
• 1:29:40
  girlfriends, new spouses that are coming in and out of the
• 1:29:43
  child's home. Those There are situations where
• 1:29:46
  biological parents are abusive and the law should come down
• 1:29:50
  hard on them. But the unrelated adults who are
• 1:29:53
  joining the family later are objectively and statistically
• 1:29:57
  much more dangerous to children. Even in cases where a biological
• 1:30:02
  father abuses children, the kind of abuse that children endure,
• 1:30:07
  like when it's sexual abuse, the kind of abuse that children
• 1:30:10
  endure at the hands of mother's boyfriend or stepfather is more
• 1:30:13
  extreme more. I mean like, I don't know if I
• 1:30:15
  can say this on your show, but like they sexual abuse from the
• 1:30:18
  biological father is not penetrative in as many cases as
• 1:30:22
  it is with mother's live in boyfriend or her new stepfather.
• 1:30:26
  Like so even the kinds of abuse are more.
• 1:30:28
  It's all horrible and evil, but the point is there's natural
• 1:30:32
  there. There's there's distinct
• 1:30:33
  differences that we would be fooled to not acknowledge about
• 1:30:36
  the differences between biology and non biology.
• 1:30:39
  So the case is. And by the way, if you're being
• 1:30:41
  in any way abused by your father, then he should go to
• 1:30:43
  jail. I mean.
• 1:30:44
  Obviously that's exactly right, but this idea that like, well,
• 1:30:48
  like any 2 will do. And the same with physical
• 1:30:50
  abuse, by the way, starting her. But like you mentioned, the
• 1:30:52
  sexual abuse is objectively, if there is sexual abuse, horrific
• 1:30:55
  that you're comparing biological sexual abuse with, you know, non
• 1:30:59
  biological sexual abuse at large.
• 1:31:01
  The non biological sexual abuse is more severe, right?
• 1:31:04
  It sounds like you're saying is that same with is the same true
• 1:31:07
  with physical abuse? So emotional abuse and physical
• 1:31:09
  abuse. My executive director Josh Wood
• 1:31:13
  at them before us just did a deep dive into abuse because
• 1:31:17
  once we launched the Greater Than campaign and we were
• 1:31:19
  talking about how unrelated adults pose distinct risks to
• 1:31:22
  children, everyone's like, oh, you want to protect children?
• 1:31:24
  Oh, so you're attacking gay marriage.
• 1:31:26
  Why don't you go after the pedophile priests and the
• 1:31:28
  pastors that are praying on them?
• 1:31:29
  We're like, let's do a little deep dive into who abuses
• 1:31:32
  children, shall we? Let's take a look at that.
• 1:31:34
  And So what he said he measured specifically sexual abuse as it
• 1:31:38
  relates to risk of sexual abuse. And it largely happens in the
• 1:31:41
  home. It does not necessarily happen
• 1:31:43
  at church or at school, even though obviously it can.
• 1:31:47
  School teachers are more of a risk to children than for
• 1:31:52
  example. Like pastors, Is that true?
• 1:31:54
  Statistically, yes. You're more likely as a kid to
• 1:31:56
  be abused at school than at church.
• 1:31:57
  To suffer some kind of abuse at school.
• 1:32:00
  Yes, by other adults though, or other kids.
• 1:32:02
  That is where the data is less clear, but they have received
• 1:32:06
  some more abuse at public school than you would necessarily at
• 1:32:10
  other institutional settings. But the idea is like, actually
• 1:32:12
  the risk to children is people that share living spaces with
• 1:32:15
  them. That's really where the risk is.
• 1:32:17
  Yeah, we need to be on guard and vigilant about anybody that is
• 1:32:21
  caring for our kids or in connection to our kids or having
• 1:32:26
  relationships with that. We do need to like scrutinize
• 1:32:28
  coaches or pastors or teachers for that kind of thing.
• 1:32:32
  Absolutely, 100%. But a lot of it has to do with
• 1:32:35
  access, and people that share living spaces with children have
• 1:32:39
  pretty much open-ended access. So anything more that you would
• 1:32:46
  say on the issue of divorce before we go to a Burgerfile?
• 1:32:49
  And do you think that we that we should reinstitute at fault as
• 1:32:52
  divorce? We should roll back no fault
• 1:32:53
  divorce. I'm not sure if we should call
• 1:32:55
  it at fault divorce. I've heard Brad Wilcox call it
• 1:32:59
  divorce justice. We need divorce justice so that
• 1:33:02
  the innocent spouse and the children receive favor in the
• 1:33:07
  eyes of the public and in the courts.
• 1:33:09
  You should be rewarded for trying to work things out and
• 1:33:12
  keep your marriage together. Like there should not be a
• 1:33:15
  reward financially or socially for you cutting ties and leaving
• 1:33:19
  when there isn't a fault involved.
• 1:33:22
  You know, you talk about divorce rates declining.
• 1:33:25
  They have, but mainly because marriage rates declined.
• 1:33:29
  We're not seeing as many divorces because we're not
• 1:33:30
  seeing as many marriages. And I would say that's also a
• 1:33:34
  product of divorce that children my age, you know, who are raised
• 1:33:38
  at the height of the no fault divorce epidemic in the 80s and
• 1:33:42
  the 90s. What did divorce teach you?
• 1:33:45
  Well, it taught you no fault divorce taught you anybody can
• 1:33:49
  leave you for any time for any reason.
• 1:33:53
  You'll never see it coming and there's nothing you can do about
• 1:33:56
  it. So children who grow up in
• 1:33:58
  divorced homes are less likely, less able to form and maintain
• 1:34:02
  their own healthy relationships later.
• 1:34:04
  They're less likely to marry. If they do marry, they're more
• 1:34:07
  likely to get divorced themselves.
• 1:34:09
  So I think that a lot of the declining marriage rates that
• 1:34:12
  we're seeing is because that generation learned cohabitation
• 1:34:16
  is safe, marriage is risky, so I'm just going to shack up
• 1:34:20
  instead. So this leads us to a burgerfowl
• 1:34:24
  tell explain to everyone what the the the Supreme Court
• 1:34:27
  decision of Obergefell found was decided and then what your
• 1:34:31
  campaign greater than is doing. What was Obergefell?
• 1:34:35
  It was the Supreme Court decision in 2015 that mandated
• 1:34:39
  gay marriage for the entire nation.
• 1:34:42
  What did it do? It prohibited making any
• 1:34:45
  distinctions between same sex and opposite sex couples.
• 1:34:49
  That's what Justice Kennedy said in his opinion for that
• 1:34:52
  decision, that same sex couples needed to be afforded the full
• 1:34:56
  constellation of benefits of marriage, that we needed to
• 1:35:01
  treat these two pairings exactly the same.
• 1:35:04
  Now, you could make a case that they have the same strength of
• 1:35:07
  feelings. They definitely have the same
• 1:35:09
  dignity. People that identify as gay and
• 1:35:11
  people that identify as straight have the same level of dignity.
• 1:35:14
  They're both made in the image of God.
• 1:35:16
  But as it relates to these two couplings, there are areas where
• 1:35:19
  they will never be the same. What is that area?
• 1:35:23
  And and quick interjection. They should have the same legal
• 1:35:25
  status individually, right, With all the Soji laws.
• 1:35:28
  Yeah, like, like, like an individual person who identifies
• 1:35:32
  as gay. It's not like he should get more
• 1:35:33
  of a speeding ticket than a person who's heterosexual.
• 1:35:36
  He if he does a crime, he gets more punishment than
• 1:35:38
  heterosexual. Like, that's ridiculous.
• 1:35:40
  How do you identify? Equal protection under the law,
• 1:35:42
  regardless of your sexual interests.
• 1:35:44
  Right. Yeah, but that's not what they
• 1:35:45
  said, right? They said you can't make
• 1:35:47
  distinctions between these two pairings.
• 1:35:50
  Now that is a problem because when it comes to making babies
• 1:35:54
  and raising babies, there is a massive distinction between same
• 1:35:59
  sex and opposite sex couples. But now, based on the
• 1:36:02
  Constitution, you're not allowed to elevate one relationship
• 1:36:06
  above the other. In fact, you need to make sure
• 1:36:09
  that same sex couples have equal access.
• 1:36:11
  So what does that mean? It means that as relates to
• 1:36:14
  marriage and family in parenthood, parenthood
• 1:36:17
  especially, the law had to accomplish something that
• 1:36:20
  biology prohibits, and that was making two adults of the same
• 1:36:24
  sex parents of a child. That's never something that
• 1:36:26
  nature is going to accomplish on its own.
• 1:36:28
  So the law had to deliver it. OK, So what has happened in the
• 1:36:31
  last 10 years in the name of adult equality?
• 1:36:36
  We have erased all distinctions in the family as it relates to
• 1:36:40
  law. We have scrubbed the words
• 1:36:42
  mother or father from parenthood laws.
• 1:36:44
  We have allowed unrelated adults on children's birth certificate.
• 1:36:47
  We have rewired, reoriented parenthood statutes so that
• 1:36:52
  people can take possession of an infant even if they're not
• 1:36:56
  biologically related, and they haven't gone through an adoption
• 1:36:58
  process. That has largely happened
• 1:37:01
  through a law called the Uniform Parentage Act that uniformly
• 1:37:05
  stripped children of their right to their mother and father in
• 1:37:07
  the name of Obergefell era parenthood mandates.
• 1:37:12
  So that is why everybody comes to California to acquire these
• 1:37:16
  third party reproduction surrogate babies.
• 1:37:18
  Because California was one of the first states to adopt the
• 1:37:21
  Uniform Parentage Act. It mandated these pre birth
• 1:37:25
  orders that said that women can, should, especially if the buyers
• 1:37:29
  want it, relinquish their parental rights to the child
• 1:37:31
  before the baby is born. It instituted intent, right?
• 1:37:35
  I intend to parent this child, therefore give them to me.
• 1:37:38
  Even if I'm a pedophile, even if I'm ACCP member, even if I'm
• 1:37:42
  before a national, even if I'm a 74 year old man, give me the
• 1:37:47
  baby like it erased there's. No check for sexual abuse.
• 1:37:50
  There's no background checks. No check for criminal record, no
• 1:37:53
  nothing. It's insane.
• 1:37:54
  It's not adopting. You could do 20 babies if you
• 1:37:56
  had and you. Can mass produce them?
• 1:37:57
  If you want, you can mass produce them here in the United
• 1:38:00
  States. We've got billionaires in China
• 1:38:02
  that are mass producing. There's one that both said he's
• 1:38:04
  got more than 100 children through Californian surrogates.
• 1:38:07
  Why is it that they come to California?
• 1:38:09
  Because they have followed sooner and better the dictates
• 1:38:14
  of the Obergefell world. That said, if an adult wants a
• 1:38:17
  baby, it's discriminatory if they are not given the baby.
• 1:38:21
  There's no distinction made for a biological parent.
• 1:38:23
  Adoption screening, whether it's male or female, the number of
• 1:38:26
  parents that can take a child home.
• 1:38:28
  There's no distinctions as it relates to a medical status.
• 1:38:32
  Are they infertile? Is that why they needed it?
• 1:38:34
  No, it doesn't matter, right? They're socially infertile.
• 1:38:36
  Therefore, now insurance companies can subsidized the
• 1:38:39
  manufacturing of motherless and fatherless children.
• 1:38:42
  What Obergefell did in law, it didn't just redefine marriage,
• 1:38:47
  it redefined how we think about the human child.
• 1:38:50
  It's no longer children born into a pre political
• 1:38:54
  relationship with the two people who gave them life.
• 1:38:57
  In the Obergefell world. The only familial contours, the
• 1:39:01
  only distinction that makes a family is did the adult get the
• 1:39:04
  baby that they wanted at the time they wanted in the way that
• 1:39:06
  they wanted. And they can kill any babies
• 1:39:09
  along the way that they don't want.
• 1:39:10
  Destroy the undesired. Born or they're an IVF.
• 1:39:13
  Separate them from their mother and father, take them across
• 1:39:16
  borders. The only kind of distinction
• 1:39:19
  that makes a family in the Obergefell world is did the
• 1:39:22
  adult get what they wanted? They've erased all of the other
• 1:39:26
  contours of the natural family, the procreative aspect that
• 1:39:30
  there's a man and a woman, that biology makes the baby, that
• 1:39:34
  unrelated adults, disadvantaged children like.
• 1:39:37
  All of those different contours of the natural family don't
• 1:39:40
  exist in the Obergefell era parenthood laws.
• 1:39:44
  So the technology makes it possible to mass produce 21
• 1:39:49
  children, three of which are under the age 15, of which are
• 1:39:51
  under the age of three. But that is hard to do if you do
• 1:39:54
  not have laws that cement those technological decisions under
• 1:39:59
  the guise of adult equality. So you have to have both, right
• 1:40:02
  to get these mass produced children.
• 1:40:04
  You have to both have the technology to sever children
• 1:40:07
  from their genetic mother or father, but you have to have the
• 1:40:09
  legal pathways that streamline access for unrelated adults to
• 1:40:13
  acquire the children. So what did Obergefell do?
• 1:40:17
  Well, when you make husbands and wives optional in marriage, it
• 1:40:21
  requires that mothers and fathers be optional in
• 1:40:23
  parenthood law. But for children, their mother
• 1:40:26
  and father are never optional. They always need that man and
• 1:40:28
  that woman. It always leads to their
• 1:40:30
  thriving. It always redounds to their
• 1:40:32
  protection. They need it for identity
• 1:40:33
  formation and they need it for their own healthy development.
• 1:40:36
  So we are spearheading along with.
• 1:40:40
  And, and quick interjection, the only way that we can even create
• 1:40:43
  safeguards in like adoption as an example, is if we acknowledge
• 1:40:46
  the realities of what children deserve.
• 1:40:48
  But if you remove that, as you've done with the Burgerfile,
• 1:40:50
  you could justify removing, you could justify removing all of
• 1:40:54
  the safeguards in adoption right now.
• 1:40:56
  Well, for the same reasons that we've removed the safeguards,
• 1:40:58
  we've never had safeguards in IVF or surrogacy.
• 1:41:02
  Right now, you've got this bizarre personality split in law
• 1:41:05
  that says these adults who are adopting a baby have to undergo
• 1:41:08
  significant vetting, screening scrutiny, background checks and
• 1:41:11
  home studies. These people who purchased the
• 1:41:13
  child, they're also unrelated. They can walk out of the
• 1:41:15
  hospital with nobody. So at some point the law is
• 1:41:18
  going to have to figure out who they are.
• 1:41:20
  I mean there should be a class action lawsuit of children who
• 1:41:22
  are who are the bot children and who suffer adverse consequences.
• 1:41:25
  The problem is it's a mass social experiment.
• 1:41:27
  It's a mass. The youngest child that's, you
• 1:41:29
  know, being creative via IVF and surrogacy today, you know, is
• 1:41:32
  maybe 30 years old Max. And there's just a few of them.
• 1:41:35
  That's right. The the, the, the wholesale of
• 1:41:36
  it being done today. You know, the, the potential
• 1:41:38
  millions globally and certainly thousands here.
• 1:41:42
  They're they're little, they're under 20.
• 1:41:43
  They're still figuring out life. They're sometimes them are
• 1:41:45
  babies. So we're, we're, we haven't even
• 1:41:47
  begun to hit what what we will see in the future with the
• 1:41:50
  stories that will emerge. Across borders, we already know
• 1:41:55
  that pedophiles have used these technologies to acquire
• 1:41:57
  children. Lord have mercy.
• 1:41:59
  Are are they California like hire a surrogate?
• 1:42:01
  Yeah, what would stop a man? Nothing.
• 1:42:03
  Katie, what would stop a man from hiring?
• 1:42:06
  Buying a donor egg? They could use their own sperm
• 1:42:08
  if they wanted to, or buy sperm hiring a California surrogate.
• 1:42:12
  Oh, I'm a nice single man and I just love children.
• 1:42:15
  And, you know, I, I tell the story.
• 1:42:17
  I'm going to pay you all this money, whatever.
• 1:42:19
  And she delivers him the baby and she comes to the baby and
• 1:42:22
  picks up that baby and he takes that baby.
• 1:42:23
  And the sole purpose of bringing that baby to the world was
• 1:42:25
  abuse. Yeah, What's stopping that from
• 1:42:27
  happening? It's already happened.
• 1:42:29
  How do we know what's happened? I documented 5 different cases.
• 1:42:32
  I was probably 3 years ago at the Federalist and it was
• 1:42:34
  something, I think we called it Meet 5 Convicted Pedophiles who
• 1:42:38
  Acquired Children Through Surrogacy.
• 1:42:39
  So we already have these cases. How did those children get
• 1:42:42
  rescued? Some of them, the parents were
• 1:42:45
  found out because there were trenches of pornography that
• 1:42:48
  were discovered on their computer.
• 1:42:50
  So, so the way the children were rescued was because of the FBI
• 1:42:56
  looking into see Sam child sexual assault materials and
• 1:42:58
  discovering that the parent had or there was some other
• 1:43:01
  conviction and they found and then they found out the sexual
• 1:43:03
  rights. So it was never like, because
• 1:43:04
  when you're a child and you're and you're in a home.
• 1:43:08
  You can't cry for help. Yeah, There's no way for you.
• 1:43:10
  You represent yourself. The answer is some of the
• 1:43:12
  children weren't removed from the home.
• 1:43:13
  Some of them are still living with the parent who was
• 1:43:16
  convicted of sexual offenses. What?
• 1:43:19
  Because they are the legal parents.
• 1:43:21
  Where are they going to send them?
• 1:43:22
  Foster care. Why not foster care?
• 1:43:24
  Because they haven't abused that child, right?
• 1:43:26
  Sometimes. That's a that's permitted.
• 1:43:28
  So you can be, you can be the non biological or the biological
• 1:43:31
  parent for that matter of a of a young child and the soul
• 1:43:36
  guardian even. And you can be literally have
• 1:43:39
  just gotten, you know, whatever added to the child registered
• 1:43:44
  child sexual abuse list for your C Sam on your computer and
• 1:43:47
  there's a baby at your house and the baby's not removed.
• 1:43:50
  So I know that there was one situation in Norway, there was
• 1:43:55
  he was actually a psychologist that worked in the field of, of
• 1:43:59
  sociology, like doing child welfare kind of things.
• 1:44:01
  And he had acquired two children through surrogacy and as a
• 1:44:05
  single man. And there was all kinds of child
• 1:44:08
  porn that was discovered on his computer.
• 1:44:10
  And I believe the children were removed temporarily but returned
• 1:44:13
  to his care. I mean, one, one thing we don't
• 1:44:16
  have time to talk about today, but the, the, the lack of
• 1:44:19
  seriousness, which which we take child sexual abuse in this
• 1:44:21
  country. Just an anecdote.
• 1:44:23
  I know of a case where there were these two men and, you
• 1:44:26
  know, very educated, you know, same sex couple, whatever, and
• 1:44:30
  they end up being found out to have like incredible amounts of
• 1:44:34
  C Sam. They were trying to meet up with
• 1:44:36
  real young children in real life to do sexual abuse.
• 1:44:39
  They were offering to babysit their friends babies.
• 1:44:43
  I don't know if they got access to any, but they were like, oh,
• 1:44:45
  we're happy to we have a date night out.
• 1:44:47
  I mean and and get guess how much time they spent in prison.
• 1:44:50
  Oh my gosh. Guess how much?
• 1:44:52
  I don't know. Two years and then they were let
• 1:44:55
  free to roam the streets. The thing is that this is if
• 1:44:58
  you've got the money, this is the obvious choice for predators
• 1:45:01
  because a lot of them can't find a woman to have a baby with.
• 1:45:05
  And none of these men, none of them would be approved for
• 1:45:08
  adoption. Some of them already have
• 1:45:10
  convictions in their past that would automatically exclude
• 1:45:13
  them. There was a case a year ago of a
• 1:45:16
  veterinarian in Chicago who like was known for being a judge at
• 1:45:22
  dog shows or something, and they busted him as some, I saw that,
• 1:45:27
  yeah, an underground chat that he was in talking about how in a
• 1:45:31
  couple weeks I'm going to go pick up my surrogate born child
• 1:45:33
  in California for to abuse them. Like he explicitly said I'm
• 1:45:36
  going to have my way with that surrogate baby.
• 1:45:38
  And thankfully they discovered him.
• 1:45:40
  But then what? Happened the ones that weren't
• 1:45:42
  discovered that. Has not been discovered, That is
• 1:45:44
  how. Many hundreds or thousands are
• 1:45:46
  not discovered. That's right.
• 1:45:48
  We have a lot of energy right now about Epstein and I.
• 1:45:50
  I have the energy. I'm so disturbed and upset about
• 1:45:52
  the files. It's happening now because of
• 1:45:54
  surrogacy. That's right.
• 1:45:56
  It's happening now because of surrogacy.
• 1:45:58
  Epstein, if Epstein hadn't had surrogacy, imagine what he could
• 1:46:01
  have done. And he did what he did without
• 1:46:03
  surrogacy. But imagine what not even in
• 1:46:05
  Epstein anybody can do because of surrogacy.
• 1:46:08
  Today. It's it's so back to a
• 1:46:10
  burgerfile. What is what did, what did they
• 1:46:11
  get logically wrong? You kind of already explained
• 1:46:13
  it, but and how are we going to overturn a burgerfile?
• 1:46:16
  They equated 2 things that will never be equal.
• 1:46:19
  Two men are never going to be equal to a man and a woman.
• 1:46:21
  Two women are never equal to a man and a woman.
• 1:46:24
  What is the difference? A child raised by a heterosexual
• 1:46:27
  couple that is a product of their sexual union will be
• 1:46:30
  raised by the two people responsible for their existence.
• 1:46:33
  The two people to whom they have a natural right.
• 1:46:34
  The two adults who are the most connected to, invested in, and
• 1:46:37
  protective of them. The household that where they're
• 1:46:39
  most likely to be safe and loved, the place where they're
• 1:46:42
  going to get all of their biological identity and their
• 1:46:44
  development is going to be maximized.
• 1:46:46
  What happens in the child the the life of a child with two
• 1:46:49
  moms, they are always losing a parent.
• 1:46:52
  They're always in a statistically riskier household.
• 1:46:55
  They're always denied their biological identity, their
• 1:46:57
  developments, always Hanford. These two things are not the
• 1:46:59
  same. But Obergefell forbid states
• 1:47:02
  from elevating the one family structure where children don't
• 1:47:05
  have to lose their mother or father to be in it.
• 1:47:07
  And then they rewrote all the laws to permit not just same sex
• 1:47:11
  couples to acquire children, but anybody to acquire children.
• 1:47:14
  That is the necessary consequence of Obergefell.
• 1:47:17
  There's a Direct Line between gay marriage and child
• 1:47:19
  commodification. It's not an accident, it is the
• 1:47:23
  way that it was supposed to go. Otherwise, adults can't really
• 1:47:26
  be equal if they cannot have access to unrelated children.
• 1:47:31
  So we launched greater than you can go to
• 1:47:33
  greaterthancampaign.com and you can look at the direct
• 1:47:36
  connection between gay marriage and child victimization.
• 1:47:39
  We have the stories. What how do children feel when
• 1:47:42
  they lose their mother or father when they are starved of a
• 1:47:45
  connection with one or both biological parent?
• 1:47:47
  How they feel the mother hunger or father hunger they
• 1:47:49
  experience, even if they have two loving moms or two loving
• 1:47:52
  dads, like what is that like for them?
• 1:47:54
  And then we have this incredible coalition of, you know, close to
• 1:47:59
  100 different partners, about 50 of which are listed on the
• 1:48:02
  website, who are all speaking with one voice.
• 1:48:04
  Conservatives, Christians in media and academia and policy,
• 1:48:08
  lawyers, influencers, All of us are saying the same thing.
• 1:48:13
  And that is, don't touch the kids.
• 1:48:15
  We're going to retake marriage on behalf of children.
• 1:48:18
  It is not a vehicle of adult fulfillment.
• 1:48:20
  It is the primary metric, the primary way that nearly every
• 1:48:24
  country, every culture, every religion, all throughout
• 1:48:27
  history, it is the tool that everyone has used to give
• 1:48:31
  children their own mother and father.
• 1:48:33
  We have not found anything else that does it better than the
• 1:48:36
  insistence that a man and a woman commit themselves to each
• 1:48:39
  other for life, for the sake of their kids.
• 1:48:42
  So there's been 38 countries that have legalized gay marriage
• 1:48:45
  across the world. Nobody's even tried to wrestle
• 1:48:49
  back the definition of marriage for the sake of children.
• 1:48:52
  But that's what we're going to do.
• 1:48:53
  I'm so happy that you are spearheading this Greater Than
• 1:48:58
  and I'm so proud to be a part of it.
• 1:49:00
  Katie, thank you for the love in your heart because we're doing
• 1:49:04
  this for the future generations, for the little ones.
• 1:49:07
  And they don't ever get a seat at the table because they're
• 1:49:10
  little. That's right.
• 1:49:11
  They're little. They're they're they're
• 1:49:12
  vulnerable, they're voiceless. How can people support greater
• 1:49:15
  than and what do you think the time frame is going to be like
• 1:49:19
  to accomplish this mission of overturning a burger fell?
• 1:49:21
  You should go to greaterthancampaign.com.
• 1:49:24
  You should see right on the homepage, we've got this
• 1:49:25
  incredible like preview video, Lila's in it and it's just, I
• 1:49:30
  don't know, star-studded. Like, we have Albert Mohler in
• 1:49:33
  that and Allie Stuckey and Michael Knowles and Josh Hammer
• 1:49:36
  and just superstars, superstars of people that have never
• 1:49:40
  flinched, never wavered, even when they were supposedly on the
• 1:49:44
  wrong side of history. They're like, no, we're not.
• 1:49:47
  And now we're going to take this back because this is a matter of
• 1:49:50
  justice for children. So go and watch the trailer.
• 1:49:52
  Sign up for the newsletter. We won't spam you.
• 1:49:55
  We'll just keep you posted about what's happening.
• 1:49:57
  What does the timeline look like?
• 1:49:59
  I don't know. You know, I am doing this
• 1:50:03
  because this is what justice requires.
• 1:50:06
  And in all of the different things that God has led me into,
• 1:50:10
  I never know, like, am I going to succeed?
• 1:50:12
  Am I going to fail? How long is it going to take?
• 1:50:13
  And sometimes I'm like, how's this going to go?
• 1:50:16
  God? And he's like, not your
• 1:50:18
  business. Your business is obey.
• 1:50:21
  Wow. I will take care of what's
• 1:50:23
  happening in the future. Right now you work with all your
• 1:50:26
  might. And it's amazing to have this
• 1:50:28
  incredible coalition of people from all different corners of
• 1:50:33
  Christianity and from all different parts of the
• 1:50:35
  conservative world who are speaking together and saying you
• 1:50:38
  don't get to have this institution.
• 1:50:40
  It doesn't exist for your validation.
• 1:50:42
  It's a critical piece of a just society's way of protecting the
• 1:50:46
  most vulnerable. So we totally would love
• 1:50:50
  everybody to come go to greaterthancampaign.com, take
• 1:50:54
  our little gay marriage quiz, find out how much you really
• 1:50:56
  know about gay marriage. Sign up for the newsletter,
• 1:50:57
  especially so that we can keep you in touch.
• 1:51:00
  Definitely financially support, like we are up against giants
• 1:51:05
  and we're triggering all the right people, but that does come
• 1:51:08
  at some expense. We want to produce and will be
• 1:51:10
  producing videos of kids who grew up motherless or fatherless
• 1:51:14
  so that you can understand that adults who don't get what they
• 1:51:18
  want are not the victims, children who are denied their
• 1:51:21
  rights or the victims. And that is what this campaign's
• 1:51:24
  about. Before we close out, there's one
• 1:51:26
  more story that I want you to share with people.
• 1:51:28
  Brittany Pearson, another California surrogate, was in
• 1:51:33
  just the last couple years one of the most devastating stories
• 1:51:36
  that I've ever come across, but one that I think encapsulates
• 1:51:38
  exactly what we're fighting against with the in the whole
• 1:51:41
  picture. What?
• 1:51:42
  What is the story of Britney Pearson?
• 1:51:43
  She was commissioned by two men to carry a surrogate born baby.
• 1:51:47
  And she was diagnosed, I think when she was like 20-3 weeks
• 1:51:49
  with cancer and needed to immediately have treatment that
• 1:51:53
  was not going to allow the pregnancy to continue, I
• 1:51:55
  believe. And so she said we can deliver
• 1:51:58
  the baby, We can try to make sure that the baby's life is
• 1:52:02
  preserved. And the two commissioning men
• 1:52:05
  said no, because that baby's probably going to have some
• 1:52:07
  medical problems. We didn't order a baby that had
• 1:52:10
  medical problems. We ordered a baby that was full
• 1:52:12
  time. Yeah, that's what.
• 1:52:14
  And she said, OK, well, that's fine.
• 1:52:15
  I will then find somebody to adopt the baby.
• 1:52:18
  And they said, no, we don't want our genes out there.
• 1:52:21
  Because one of the one of the men had been the sperm donor.
• 1:52:23
  Had been the genetic father, right?
• 1:52:25
  And so we don't exactly know she's been Brittany was pretty
• 1:52:28
  opaque when she talked about what happened, but the baby
• 1:52:30
  didn't live. We don't know whether it was
• 1:52:32
  aborted or whether she delivered and the baby died, but what's so
• 1:52:36
  interesting to me? About that, I thought they they
• 1:52:38
  intentionally with healthcare. I'm not sure exactly.
• 1:52:42
  I I maybe don't remember the exact details.
• 1:52:45
  I have never heard her put her finger on exactly how the baby
• 1:52:48
  died. But what's so interesting to me
• 1:52:50
  in that story is the two people who bought the baby, the genetic
• 1:52:54
  father, had less concern than the supposed oven for their bun.
• 1:52:59
  I mean, that's so often how surrogacy is betrayed.
• 1:53:01
  Oh, I'm not the mother. I'm just the oven for somebody
• 1:53:02
  else's bun. Why did the oven care more than
• 1:53:04
  anyone else? Why?
• 1:53:07
  Because women bond with babies, and very often it is that human
• 1:53:10
  woman, the birth mother, even if she's not genetically related,
• 1:53:13
  who is the one who actually loves and cares for and wants to
• 1:53:15
  protect the children the most. Unfortunately, when you're
• 1:53:18
  paying six figures for a child, very often that does not carry
• 1:53:22
  over to the specific love and connection and protection that
• 1:53:26
  we're told that if these kids are so loved and wanted,
• 1:53:28
  obviously they're going to do just as well.
• 1:53:30
  It looks like biology matters and birth mothers matter and
• 1:53:33
  women matter as it relates to child well-being and even child
• 1:53:36
  survival. Katie Faust, thank you so much.
• 1:53:40
  Incredible work cheering you on and and proud to be a part of
• 1:53:43
  it. Very glad to have you on board.
• 1:53:45
  We're so thankful for live action.
• 1:53:46
  We're so thankful that you guys have chosen to spotlight stories
• 1:53:50
  of child protection, even if they don't specifically relate
• 1:53:54
  to abortion. All of this comes down to
• 1:53:57
  whether or not we are going to force the weak to sacrifice for
• 1:54:00
  the strong, and it can't be that way.
• 1:54:01
  It needs to be us, the adults sacrificing for children and not
• 1:54:04
  the other way around. Amen.
• 1:54:06
  Thank you so much, Katie. Thanks.
• 1:54:07
  A big thank you to our channel partner.
• 1:54:09
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• 1:54:14
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• 1:54:17
  beautiful truth of the gospel. You can be the first to watch
• 1:54:20
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• 1:54:25
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