Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #278 | Why Clients Choose a Builder (And What They're Really Looking At)
Transcript
- Aaron Ng (00:57) Good morning and welcome back to the good build a podcast. This is the third Monday that we have this amazing cohost on. So she probably doesn't need the introduction, but she's amazing. You put people just seeing her all over our socials for the past two weeks. She has so much knowledge. I've loved our first two conversations. You're going to hear plenty more. have Emily Pollard from Nestor Builder Brokers. How are you? Good mate. Thanks for having me back. Glad I haven't been barred yet, but we'll see what we can do. I think you've got a permanent spot by now and see how long I keep it ⁓ looking. I reckon looking at the analytics that I might be the one that is getting off the couch and you're taking more on. We'll see. So we'll see how that all goes. You're definitely coming on for more. ⁓ I think every time we talk Emily and the Monday podcast, you know, I used to do them and I'm giving hints and tips and stuff like that, but I'm not talking to the realities of building, which you do every day. I love it. Last time we talked about contracts, we're going to drop the link below ⁓ of the last podcast. So builders can hear it cause there's end clients. Cause there's a few clients that listen to us and follow us. I think there's a lot of, ⁓ stuff that, know, ⁓ good information that builders should get in touch with Emily basically. But now we're going to talk about why clients actually choose a builder. Yeah, it's an interesting one. Yeah, a bit surprised. And you deal with clients every day. So for a quick recap, Emily is the proud founder, director of Nesta Builder Brokers. They help clients and builders all over Southeast Queensland at the moment. I reckon the world one day I can see Nesta the brand out there. anyway, ⁓ know, find the right builder, assess the contract and not provide any advice but feedback and if you know, what they're going to get is going to be delivered. All that sort of thing for the builder. ⁓ my God. If you listen to the past two episodes, there's thousands of learnings that I think Emily can give you. ⁓ And she's worked across multiple builders and just amazing how to run trade business. And yeah, so you work with clients every day and you have a panel of builders, I believe. How many do you have on the panel? We have just have 20 at the moment. Yeah. Mixed between wholesale, ⁓ know, your standard retail, resi builders, boutique, custom, you know, ⁓ scale of different ones. Yeah. Always looking to expand once the time is right with the right builders as well. give a bigger offering for our clients to, you know, select from and be educated on. So it's all happening. Yeah, cool. Well, ⁓ before we get into why they actually choose one, if there aren't any builders out there that absolutely on the Nesta panel, yeah, with Emily give Emily a call. think it would be well worth your time, let's get into it. Emily. What are some of the common reasons why you're seeing clients are going, Hey, I trust that builder or how are you? So let's talk about two options here because they're very different things. So we're talking about an everyday client as to, know, if we do research, let's look at it on both. So we're talking about everyday clients who are just wandering their way through construction, trying to figure out a builder. They pick on some wild ways to be honest. Display homes. Yeah, yeah. People out there still picking on the basics of a display. Yeah, know how marketing works. It's brilliant. So that's a big way that often I go really, but it makes sense, right? The display home is a marketing powerhouse at the end of the day. People are starting to see through that a little bit and starting to be a little bit more realistic. But you know, it's still very relevant. ⁓ relationships, this service level, this comfort in the sales person is a big one as well. So picking your sales person correctly. It's a very big one. and then from my point of view and what I do and how people pick builders with me is quite different. So we're just having the conversation. very analytical. Yeah. everything is about data and about processes and about education. So when someone comes to me and they say, I've looked at X, Y, and Zed builder. And I asked the question of what. appeals to you there. What is it? Why are you picking these builders? Some of them might be on our panel, some might not be. And they'll be like, well, I had a really beautiful display home. Yeah. And I'm just like, All right. What more than this? What else do we have? They're like, I had a good feeling. I've checked out some of their reviews. I was like, Okay, but what intrinsically do we know about this builder? That's more where I come in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all of our builders on our panel have a portfolio that's established. Yeah, includes things that As I said, they're licensing their inclusion data breakdown. So we've got, is it 135 points of data now that we drag out from every builder. And people look at me like I'm insane. These clients are like, what do need to know this for? I said, well, how do know what you're getting? What are you getting for your money here? Let's start stacking up to build a side by side and see where this falls for you. Once you have a clear vision, majority of people don't know how to look up QBCC licenses. No majority don't understand how that works. for me, it's showcasing this really wide scope of understanding about builders and then people selecting them rather than me selling them. Yeah. That's really important. as I said, came from sales management, understand what that process looks like. We understand from market research that people want options. People want education and to be guided to making the right decision, not told it's their best decision. There's definitely instances where I have no choice, to say, based on your requirements, cost, you know, feature, if they're wanting a package, this is what I have available for you now. If it's not suitable, we'll go back out when the time's right, but this is what's available to you now. And you know, that's an option. people are still very in depth on the emotional aspect of being a builder. ⁓ Will we start to skew away from that? I hope so. I do genuinely hope so. People get themselves very connected in a way that doesn't make sense. No. Analytically. ⁓ And without the full scope and full picture and it ends in some really unhappy people. Yeah. As much as they're in love at the start, they're not at the end. This is really interesting. And it doesn't need to be that way. It absolutely doesn't need to be that way. And you know, one of the things I say to our clients is, know, what what gave you this really great presence in the display home with these salespeople. As I said, you know, some of them just loved being told, yes, you can have exactly what you want for all of your money. And they get very disheartened when they're told, actually, that's not reality. Yeah. And your frames double. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everything else, you know, whatever it might be. Yeah. Correct. That's what you want flooring. No, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. You need side costs. That's, that's a shame. Yeah. Correct. And, you know, education is going to drive this, but still customer service is coming in heavy. Yeah, yeah. So it's funny. So when I talk to people about, you know, what's important to you when it comes to selecting a builder, and we always come to the you know, the first three aspects, right? Is it that you want great quality is quality, the most important is time. So time to start and time to build. Is that the most important? Or is it price low price, high price mid tier? What is it? Because if you want the best quality, the lowest price and the quickest time, you need to not build a house. Yeah. Yeah, think there's a meme that goes along with that that we could create. Yeah, I could definitely. But it's the truth. So like people's expectations need to be set. And I think often as salespeople, and as consultants and as building companies, we want to come across that we can do it all. Yeah, when that's not actually the case, very often, I'm sure there's a couple that can do it. I'm sure of it. Yeah, but it's very difficult to achieve. ⁓ You know, Do you see what I mean? Yeah, I do. do. do. You know what? We're going to have some really interesting conversations. I hope so. Very. Because not in a good way, in a really good way, because there's some things that just came to my mind. You talked about clients making decisions emotionally. Yeah, 100%. As a marketer, do you know that when I was at You do it intentionally? course you do. I know you know. I know how marketing works. But it was a big- Push for us. course it is. Makes sense. When I was at DJs, we were playing on emotion like you wouldn't believe it was all about it. We tested pictures of ⁓ families ⁓ and their interaction in a kitchen to see which one would get the most leads. The interaction of the family. And it was a woman who was ⁓ sharing a moment with a daughter sitting on a bench. And I remember the photo like... Oh my God. Like that was the golden goose that in course. it was all about that family time and falling in love with the emotion and the, and the potential memory of doing it in the kitchen of a home you build. And it kind of juxtaposes or goes against the rational of actually doing the job properly, which is, know you understand both sides, but which is where you come in. And for me, when you were talking about, I'm like, yeah. What makes a good builder? got to kind of have both, but not lean too hard into the emotional thing. If you can't deliver what you think you're going to deliver. What's the point of spending all of this money on marketing? Yeah. research, all this, all of this worlds that, you know, comes in where you come into play. If you then can't deliver. Yeah. I'm with If you have unhappy people, if you have terrible reviews. But there has to be marketing because otherwise people will not know about you. So it has to be a fine line. I love this guy. Whereas you're all very much like, look at the emotion. Let's look at the connections of these things. for me, I'm like, let's look at some data here. Let's stack people up against, you know, these companies up against each other. Yeah. Good, bad and indifferent and actually tell you what you're getting and how it's going to work. And I'm trying to win the hearts and minds of the customers. And I'm just like, don't be adept shit. Just take a step back from this. for a moment and understand, all right? I had a, this is what's wild to me. All right. This is a tangent. This is why I want you on because we're a little bit different. We're very much the same, but a little bit different. agree, which is great. I'm not saying that I oppose what you're saying. And I'm not saying that emotional marketing is right, but I know it It's not wrong. Yeah, of course. There has to be that aspect. And I know that it kind of like- I have to do that with what we offer within our service. there has to be existing. You just said fine line. It's a hugely fine line. You can't not play on people's emotion or dream of, know, sitting in this kitchen with their family and their children. And this is the Australian dream. But the Australian dream is also to build a home that you can afford for the right money and the right value in a way that worked for you and your family. And sometimes they don't marry up. That's yeah. But I had a client. So this is back in my Stroud days. And I always think about this and I just have a little chuckle to myself because he was a wonderful person. Wonderful client, we waited all this time for land rego. And the real issue was the fact that the land they enacted sunset clauses. So the land went up by $250,000. Yeah, it was a whole we'll go into that another day. But yeah, so it was a lovely we had multiple clients in this one estate. And then he's like, Well, I really wanted to be able to afford the pool. And now I can't afford the pool. And I was just like, Okay, you've got a massive house, you've got very high end feature. you know, it's, I think it was like 390 square meters, which, you know, it's only him, his wife and adult child, right? So it was big enough. No, no, no, but like I do, it's terrible. Sorry. I do. I I felt less bad when he was like, actually we've decided after spending 18 months with me, that they're going to go with another builder because the builder threw in a free pool and I just sat here and I was Was it a totally free pool? Well, and I was like, let's look at the data. Yeah. Okay. So you had a, I think it was 390 square meter, three bathroom house, right? You couldn't afford a Yeah. Right. I understand you wanted a pool. Love that for you. Then we've got, you've gone to another builder and you're now building a 330 square meter house with two bathrooms, but you've got a free pool. Wow. Let's look at the contract sums. Shall we? were the same amount of money give or take a few thousand and I was like so you genuinely believe within your heart of hearts bless your soul that you have gotten something for free here that they have done you a deal yeah I was like it's a smaller home less feature but you have a pool I was like man I could have ripped everything out and given you a pool but I don't want to bullshit to you oh and it's partially cultural though as well right I have it's It is a huge culture. A lot of people play into these cultural norms that exist when people, you know, negotiate certain people want a really great deal. Like we know how this works. These cultures don't recognize we know how it works, but it's played against them. It is actually insanity. So I'll give you an example and I probably shouldn't, but I'm, don't even care now. I was dirty. So I have a, I'll give some, guess, relevance to it. So I had a client just recently, um, he's an Indian guy. He's been here for a few years. Happy as Larry with this particular package. And then he came back to me once he's gone to his broker and said, Oh, my, broker's just mentioned to me. He's a young guy. He's like, Oh, I should have been negotiating the build price. And I was like, how are we going to do that, mate? I was like, I'm happy to hear to go to bat for you. But I was like, this was a package that the builder had. There is very little negotiation here. You have a fair and reasonable price. You understand what it is. And like, if there is wiggle room or something that I feel is not appropriate, I'll go to bat for that for sure. But like, this isn't how it works. And I was like, or I could lie to you. And he's like, what do you mean? And I was like, I've had another client that come to me and said, I want the best deal. This particular, you know, channel partner, you know, whatever you want to call us has told me he'll give me 10 grand off this package for utilizing him. And I was like, Okay. All right. Send that to me. I'd love to see it. You know, there's only so many people that work in this wholesale space, right? And they're all using only wholesale builders. So he sent me over the package and he had edited it to increase the price of this package to then tell him he could get it for $10,000 cheaper because he knew he wanted a deal. ⁓ my God. So I sent him because I have no restraint. I was like, here's the actual package because I have copy of that. Here is the real price. I know the builder wouldn't have done this for you. You've into Canva or whatever exported this PDF, changed the pricing and then told you I can get it for 10 grand less. Come with me. I was gobsmacked. I was like, what the hell is going on here? That's how it works. It's a cultural, we know that they want to deal or they want this. And I'm just like, just, I'll just give you honesty. Don't come to me if you want that. I'm not the right person. But that's what happens in this industry. It is wild. So I know the purpose of the podcast is why clients are choosing builders, but this is like why sometimes they choose it. Yeah. They want shit for free. They don't understand it. Even a rational, educated person sees this free sign. And like you guys all, not all of you do it, but like a whole bunch of you do it and I get it. This is the promo that's running or this is whatever. And that's okay. Like I'm not here to say that this shouldn't be done. That's not my, my, my space. But I just don't. No, don't get it. don't fuck with that. I don't fuck with that. It just defeats the purpose of transparency and honesty. And at the end of the day, if your selling point is the fact that you're going to give something for free. Let's look at other. selling points. You don't know how many builders are going to love you for this. know. I know this. not going to buy it. And that's okay. Everyone runs different tactics. Everyone loves different marketing campaigns, but you know, we've got to look at it of transparency provides trust. Yeah. Lack of transparency creates distrust. Yep. Yeah. And it is that simple from a client experience, right? And you know, All of you guys out here listening can carry this however you please. But at some point, whether it's myself or someone else is going to come in this industry, as I said, rip this bandaid off, show the Axe wound for what it is and go, let's rebuild this. Do you know what mean? Like, let's actually look at how we can shift this unnecessary marketing that comes in that does feel very disgenuine. Yeah. It does feel very dishonest. Maybe if it's not the intention, everyone wants to build houses. Everyone wants to get leads and we've got to do it in some way or another. Yeah. But the client is becoming a lot smarter. Yeah. So whilst we still definitely have people out there going, I've got something for free. And me going, oh man, what are you done? Yeah. What are you done? All right. Whatever. Let's have a look. Next. Where's your contract? Yeah. And it's not my job to say, you know, back then it wasn't my job to be like, you're shitting me, right? Come on. Whereas now people come to me and be like, this builder was going to give me this. I was like, no, wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, we can, we can call that for what it is. Yeah. I'm like, and the way I explain it, right. It's the funniest when people tell me that this is how they're choosing. I choose on a basis of display home. All right. That's, that's fine. How much does that display home cost? Yeah. On a base price on actual value. Is that something within your wheelhouse? Can you afford that? Yeah. Is that the expectation of, of finish of, you know, inclusions? Let's compare apples to apples here with what reality is. Yeah. Go and ask to walk through a house under construction. That's going to be like yours. See what it is. Lots of builders are doing that now. And I love it. Yeah. Love it. I don't bother sending people to display home. Yeah. He's our builders have displays and I'm like, yeah, let's go walk through. Yeah. Let's see what's out there. Let's see what the quality is like near completion. And then, you know, we look at free inclusion stuff that people keep running on to. Yeah. Well, don't don't judge me on this. I literally went to one builder and like, you've just got to check incrementally as to where prices sit. Right. And you know, it's when it comes to display homes. When I started, I worked in North Harbor. I remember walking around the second go of the display village that we're in and going, what does this house cost to build? Yeah. I took a little note. What does it cost to build? All right. What's the base price? What's the enterprise? Stroud, we were only allowed to upgrade by absolute max 10%. So we weren't allowed to have these high spec, you know, whatever else it needed to actually represent what you're getting for your money, which is quite uncommon. People loved it. People absolutely loved it. We created these little brochures that said, this is the upgrade. This is the cost. This is the base price. Driven right through Stroud. Yeah. I think they do some hiring stuff now. the I love James Stroud, we hang out a little bit. He doesn't even talk about that to me. That's cool. It's really interesting. And it was a real selling point, be honest. Yeah, No smoke and mirrors, no bullshit. Like this is what it looks like. If you wanted this house as it stands, here's a breakdown of every single cost and how much it be for you. And people like I would print out over a weekend, say 50 of those because everyone would take them. And it was great. ⁓ But then you, you know, you come into display homes that I walked through in, you know, we had, think 33 builders or something like that. And I was like, what's does this one cost? What does this one cost? I literally went back before everyone, mean last year. And I said, did the same thing. No one knew me in there anymore, which was great. Everyone turned over by that point. There was still some builders left in there. We talked about that last episode. Yeah. And then I went in and I was like, okay, so what does this house cost? So the build base price went up. Wow. That was normal. But several of them told me that the completed price had not changed in what three years. And I was like, some of them knew some of them had their facts. Several of them were just like, Oh, yep. This is the value. And I was like, no, no, it was to be built now. Yeah. Not when it was built three and a half years ago. Wow. And I was like, that's a problem. Yeah. That's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this is how people choose builders. So, I, again, It's one of those things. So education is power here, like everything else, right? Education for the builders, education for the clients. Education is power in this space. And again, I truly believe that there is going to be a shift now. And do you see it happening as well? Yeah, well, Emily, yeah. From our perspective, you included, you're part of the good builder. We see a lot of that. We scour, we just... I don't want to plug the building industry report, but we scoured a lot of reviews and a lot of social chatter and things like that. There's a lot more around this. Still a lot of confusion. People are open to asking questions, but they are looking for an authority in the space that can guide them. You can tell. I think everyone who's building, jumping on one of them forums and asking some sort of question. And it takes people like you, I think, and I'm not just putting it on you, but like, I think more people are going to go towards. trusted advisors like yourself. It's too much of a complex project. Yeah, so we're seeing a lot, we're seeing a lot of, when we talked about last time in the episode, Emily, you talking about contracts and I mentioned ripple effect. I guess where I was going with that is we're seeing a lot of, there's a lot of discussion that just comes from. All this stuff in the beginning, this foundational stuff we're talking about, the marketing bullshit, all that stuff. see a lot of that. And when we did the building industry research, while they're not particularly saying, you know, fake marketing campaigns and bullshit, you know, clauses, contract clauses and things. They are like it's alluded to. Um, they probably just don't bring it back to that same space. So I reckon there's definitely an increase in awareness of people trying to ask the right questions. And it will be, I think you said it's going to be a day of reckoning. really believe it's just going to be a, you know, a, a matter of time before more builders, more builders use builder brokers and more clients, um, use customers. Well, we've talked to a few retail builders. said, because we're close with the avia guys and people have kind of seen them go crazy over the past couple of years and how well they've gone. We've had a few builders that I know well go, what do you think about this like wholesale space? And we kind of have given them stats going, this is how much the wholesale space has grown over the last 12 months. It's freaking massive. And it's going to get bigger and bigger. We want good operators. one, you've talked about that. But I think, yeah, sorry, that was a very long answer to your question. The short answer is, yep. There's gonna be more people that are looking for people like you, more builders, I think also that'll be looking for people like you to them on their side. I genuinely hope that's the case. Like, I think it's tricky being in this position with such a strong stance. Yeah, I think some people have like, you know, from a channel partner point of view, we just want the most amount of money for the least amount of work, you know, they're these highly efficient, streamlined sales machines. Yep, the marketers. That's right. People are like, Oh, I'll send you over my marketers agreement. I was like, Oh, I'm not marketer mate. Do you know what I mean? I get the premise. I understand how it works. Yeah. But I was like, just so we're very clear about what my service looks like. This is what it is. So you need to be comfortable that I'm here to tell everyone about your license. I'm here to draw on this data for your inclusions. I want people to understand the functionality and the process within your business. You need to be happy with that. If you don't, and you're not happy, that's okay. We're just not the right company to align with. There has to be mutual alignment. ⁓ And you then also need to ask yourself, if you don't want that, why? Yeah. You know what, Emily? It's like, ⁓ comparing what you do and your knowledge. We've talked to, man, I've talked to thousands of people in the industry. You're one of the most knowledgeable that I've ever met. No kidding. You are think am a broad spectrum of- Yeah, you know, across it. You know, I years ago, they're like, Oh, would you ever become a builder? I was like, man, I haven't, I strapped on a tool belt for 10 years or 20 years. it's different. What I do is, like a high level oversee, right? The intrinsic of what goes into being a builder is well beyond my scope. Do you know what mean? I don't have the grunt for it. I'm very, you know, straight talker and all these things, but I'm also tend to be quite risk averse. Builders have to be willing to take risks. Do you know what I mean? I don't have that in me. I don't like I look at these guys and I'm like, like, yeah, like kudos to you. You know, it's I support my family. have a young, you know, a young child. have all these things, but so do all these guys. And some of them are running hundreds of people in staff or you know, hundreds of traders or whatever. I'm like, I couldn't think of anything worse. I just, I, I am not cut for it. Yeah, I'm happy to come in, you know, I've been approached by many businesses being like, what are your thoughts on this? Where could we improve? Let's do you know, some quality assurance type stuff within our procedures. Love that. I love all that kind of thing. I think I'm I'm quite good at it in many instances. Yeah. But for me, it's about ultimately, what's the client experience look like? How can we educate them? How can we make sure that that all aligns and that they're not? falling for these traditional sales measures anymore. As best as possible, the sales procedure is always going to exist. People are going to love walking through display homes. I'm not here to bag out on salespeople as I again, spent many years as one. Some of you are extremely ethical, do absolutely amazing jobs. It's like real estate agents. People want to shiddle over real estate agents. And I was like, know some absolutely phenomenal real estate agents. My mother-in-law's one, I had her on the podcast. She's fucking great. She's great. Absolutely. There's always going to be people with ethics and there's always going to be people who have none. That's going to be any industry. But you know, for me, it's highlighting what's happening in construction, that it's being brought to the, you know, the light of the consumer. And that builders, we may be faced now, not just by myself, but by a cohort of people that are not exposing, that's not the right word, but like, They're coming up with facts, coming up with data. They're coming up with reports, like what you're generating here and saying, hey, if we want to keep doing this, you might not have a business anymore. And that's not the intention, but it's like, we can do better. We can be better. We can have trust. Like, do you remember back well before I was born, right? There was this sentiment. We all knew about it, of what it meant to be a builder. Like they were heavily respected, know, well loved within a community. ⁓ positive news stories all about them. Like it was you want to live in a house, you better thank a builder. It's like the farmer sentiment. That was what it always was. And it has mixed into whatever this is right now, where it's mistrust and greed and whatever else. You're 100 % correct. It's disgusting. It is. And not everyone's like that and shouldn't be treated accordingly. Yeah, but people's sentiment towards building a house is well tarnished now. It is, which is terrible because you know, what do we need? 250,000 houses in this state. Who's building them? Yeah. Yeah. You're completely, you're actually right. You brought me back. Um, you know, Emily, work for GJ right? And you think about Greg Gardner and we're sitting in Rick burns office back in the day on the coast. They were heroes. of course. Absolutely. They were revered PJ burns. The brand name is revered. Yep. For sure. GJ Gardner. mean, it still is. Absolutely. it really, really was. Back then. It's a GJ It's a GJ. Absolutely. a GJ. Yeah. It's really interesting you said that. Yeah. Really interesting you said that. But like, where did we turn? Where did it become this? Well, you can't point fingers or name names, but- No, no. I don't know the answer to Neither do I. No, no, no. And that's what I'm I because we know the answer to that. We can kind of determine how- Is it when it became a marketing game? Rather than a marketing and sales game, rather than actually providing- housing for a family, you know, a real service. becomes, you know, really monopolized, you know, if that definitely. I think I had conversations, I've said on podcasts, like the biggest builder in Australia sat with me and I said, what's the difference between us and you? Because we can't catch you. We just can't catch you. want to catch you. Yeah. And we went down this whole most trusted campaign to become the most trusted builder. Yep. Yes. We used it in a way that was marketing and emotional, but we had the data in the back to prove it. I'm a bit of a mix between me and you. I'm a bit of a data driven dude with some logic and I really want to tell the truth. But I'll get you emotionally if I can. And I remember. Whereas I'll just catch you off guard. And you'll just go. I'll just call it out. Fuck off mate. do fucking know bro? But this particular builder who was some of the biggest in Australia. Yeah. Yeah I sat with them and they said we're a marketing company you're a builder. 100%. And I was like. But they know that and it's played to that. I used to always think they didn't. I used to always, was so like genuinely ingrained in the marketing being like, Oh no, like they still think they're a home builder. They're not. No, no, no. But they think it. And then I met people within it I was like, Oh no, you know what's going on. You just play that part extremely well. Yeah. That's fine. Businesses need to exist and the marketing has to happen, but it does get very skewed. Wow. Yeah. Very interesting. I have one final question for this pod actually. I shouldn't ask you a question. We're co-hosts. You ask me a question, whatever. But I do have one for you. With all the builders that you're doing this thing with, ⁓ and you're being transparent with the client, what does that experience look like compared to somebody who hasn't gone through your experience and kind of may have gone with a builder that have caught them off? Let's not say caught them off guard, but what do you hear the experiences because... We're talking before a lot of people come back around to you and kind of go, ⁓ did this. And can I ask you, I'm sorry, we didn't do anything with you, but can I you a question about this? you're like, let me have a look. hope. Yeah. What do you see the main difference? Like the real problem is that the client, so the consumer, the person who's wanting to build a house doesn't even know what questions to ask. So it's not necessarily that they're always being deceived. Like I'm not saying that in any way, shape or form. They just, they just genuinely don't know. Really. Honestly, because I'm talking about people who are town planners, I've had this conversation with people who are tradies, people who are nurses, doctors, teachers, people who have multiple university degrees, or everyday people working at Coles. Do you know what mean? It's the general consensus of I would never have thought to ask that question. That's really cool that you raised that Emily. So you're saying that one of the biggest things are that the client doesn't know what questions to ask the builder. And the builder being the builder and kind of like, know, second nature to them. They it every day. It's like me doing a podcast. get you one as a cohost. I'm like, M come get a little podcast. You're a legend. I don't sit down and go, okay, this is how this works. That's how that. So in my mind, you're not going to tell them all the information that they really need. Um, in a sense. So is that sort of going on, um, in a way Emily that like, I'm not saying you look like. Builders aren't being bad builders. They're just kind of like going, okay, ask me the question and I'll get back. I don't think all of these people are out here intentionally being deceptive. That's the consensus, right? They've intentionally not told me this. They've intentionally done whatever it might be. Sometimes their processes are just shit. Do you know what mean? Well, that's what I'm getting to. for their business, but it might not be great for the client. the client. correct. And it may not be intentional, but regardless. It's still shit. Okay. So I think the problem is people don't often build houses. That's fact. You're not, you're not, you know, who's building 10, 15, 20 houses over their lifetime. You know what mean? They're doing this once, maybe twice is often the case. So when they're coming to these people, they're often very uneducated. They don't even know what questions to ask. They're dealing with people who are often also uneducated at that initial point. It's a relationship game. It's about comfort and appeasement and, you know, hooking them into a sale. of any sale, you some of the greatest sales consultants I know come from worlds that are nothing to do with construction. And they never learned construction because I don't have to when they sit on eight, $900,000 a year doing it. Ours was an American Express, credit card salesman. don't doubt it at all. saleswoman, sorry. Yeah, great. I definitely don't doubt it at From North Lakes. Yeah. She came in, Bertie wiped the floor with everyone and we were like, what? Yeah. But then we want to look at it on a higher level, right? We have to. have to. You have to. And it's unfortunate that we have to. But we need to get people from point A of inquiry to point B of, you know, signing a prelim or signing a contract. We need to get them in a way that they know what's happening next. They know what they're getting. They're not going to be disappointed. They're not going to be. calling up your phone abusing you because you've misled them or you're untrustworthy. They're not going to be smashing you online on these 80,000 people, Facebook groups, calling you a piece of shit. Do you mean ruining your reputation when it's probably something many of these people didn't even realize is what was wanted. You know, we talk about what I want to bring here, what I want to, you know, come on with people like what's a good builder. All right. But we talk about this within the industry, but what is it to the client? What do they want to see? What experiences they had that are either good or bad or indifferent. And once you know that, like I know market research, you know, people engage with companies like what you've had in the past and go, me market research. Tell me how to take that research, apply it what we do and get more people. That's great. That has to happen. But like, we just need to have conversations with people. You know, how we handle when shit goes bad, you know, how we handle these Um, poor reviews, just call them up. Let's, let's talk about this. Not because I want you to take away the review, but because I genuinely want to improve my business. And that's what's kind of going to tell apart what becomes a good builder. Yeah, for sure. I'm so happy that I've got my tangents. no, no, no, no, no, no, Emily. I'm so happy we have you on as a cohost for the good builder. You bring such a fresh. grounded perspective of what's happening out there every day. And there is so much value in everything you say. And like, be honest, there's going to be things I absolutely don't know. Do you know what I mean? But like, I'm someone who's like, all right, I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know this. Oh, we both have us. This could be a problem. Let's dive how we got 15 hours. Yeah, yeah, you'll probably be doing your thing. I'll be deep diving over here. We'll meet back on the couch. Yeah. Yeah, you're amazing. You're a fascinating lady. Thank you so much for being a co-host of The Good Builder. Thanks for having me. Well, you don't have to say thank you anymore because you're just part of the furniture now. get rid of me, man. Next Monday, you'll be seeing Emily back on. I hope that was really cool for all you guys out there because again, we're getting perspectives from clients. Yeah. And clients out there that listen to this and see some Emily's socials. You know, get the perspectives of builders. This is what is going to make the industry great. We've got to meet in the middle somewhere. We can't just tell how to become a good builder. is a revolution coming, honestly. There genuinely is a revolution coming as to how this whole industry works. But you know what, there's one more thing I'm going to leave you with, Emily, and this is quite interesting. I know it's off, this is actually off on a tangent, but you know what I'm struggling with at the moment, got off on a tangent. You know I'm struggling with a little bit at the moment, Emily, in a little way, and it's kind of not against builders, but kind of is. So you've got the volume builders and the boutique builders. Yes. I find like the gap's just getting wider. There's no like middle kind of builder that builds the home for the average Aussie. Because there's no mid-tier Aussies anymore. Really? We're either trying to get- You want to talk about social economic class? Yes, that's going to be a- It's true. We'll probably do a podcast about that later on. But what I'm seeing is you've got the volume builders that are playing on price and all this down here. And then you've got some of the boutique builders- There's even a big movement within the boutique builders through some coaching courses who are very popular going, need to charge 10,000, 20,000 per square meter. Who the fuck's going to buy this? Well, and this is what I'm thinking. I'm not saying, I'm not saying that's everybody, but there's, there's this push for custom builders to raise their prices, get bigger margins, get more profitable and all of this. And I get that because you've got to have a good business and it makes a good you want to build houses like Grail, you go right ahead and buy good luck cashing up with that one. That's what I mean. There is a market for it. Of course there is. There is absolutely a market for it. But I think you're right. It's this clear divide of what's happened within the last five years, six years from COVID that has kind of put people in it. Think about what you used to pay a million dollars for. Yeah, I know. Think about it. I remember my first house I bought in Bellamy and I paid $320,000 and it was under 10 years ago and it's now what, million? Yeah, a bucks. it's it's good. It's fine. It's it's it's not in a city. No, it's it's not you know, acreage. It's not any of these things. It's just a standard kind of specie house 320 320 I was 22 years old. was like, yeah, let's go. But it's one of those things of, okay, well, it was three times my you know, we had a combined income of 100 grand at the time we were we were little babies. Do you know what mean? It was fine. But now you have people on 200,000 230 plus a year. Now needing to buy a house at a million dollars. is like my neighboring property. Do you know what mean? The income hasn't gone up. All these things have happened and they just kind of forced into what they can afford and that's okay. But the divide that has happened has kind of eradicated that mid-tier. It definitely has. And the boutique builders or, you you like your high end custom. And we have a couple of custom guys on our panel. You know, they're sitting at three, four, five, 6,000 square meters. Yeah. We have clients, you know, especially in our opening days, I dealt a lot more in that, you know, million and a half plus build space. Um, it becomes difficult when you're trying to manage. And this is what I found out within Nestor. was like, let's take a step back from that week. We can come back into that area, but like we have so many inquiries, so many people coming in that are spending a million dollars combined, right? Not 2 million on a build. And until I was like, we've got to pick one or the other. was like, know there's not a lot in the other space in this. Yeah. But I was like, it is a hard world. It is a time consuming world and it is a risky world because you know, some of these builds are going to take, you know, it might take me two and a half years to get paid. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I've got to, I've got to carry that, which is fine. And we'll come back to that definitely, but it'll be in a very different model because there are some absolutely exceptional boutique, custom high-end builders. That does learn that money. They do. my gosh. I was like the dream. You said in the last episode they're craftsmen. They are. Yeah. 100%. And when you're turning up to a site every day, like I remember on LinkedIn people were like, oh, you know, the grayer house, I think it was on like Southport or whatever, it has grayer written across it. And I was like, if I build that house, my face would be on it. Like honestly, do know what I mean? It is a whole different world. And we can still appreciate that there are people building houses for, you know, $350,000 and they're doing a really great job. But it is... It is different. And the people who can afford to spend 10, 15, $20 million to build a house congrats. ⁓ But how many people of that nature am I going to be able to service for the need within a year's time and do it extremely well? So it's, hard. We definitely watch the space. We definitely want to break more into that as it comes forward. I think there is a very clear market for that. But it is, it's just a different game. It's a different game for the builder. It's a different game for the client. Holy. completely different game for me as to how that actually operates. Completely different. Yeah. I think it would suit you. I think it could. I think it suit the client, actually. I think it would suit the client very well. it would. like you, independently involved in a high-end boutique building. can. It definitely can. I come from a mindset of being like, I love speaking to the everyday Australian. I love getting people into their first home. love the downsizes. I love like I have emotional connection to that of being like, you know, this is do or die for these people in many instances, right? It's the break into the market. It's a whole different kettle of fish. Do I want to deal with people building multimillion dollar houses? Yeah, possibly. I've done that before. I'm definitely interested in it or to get someone into that space within the business who will exclusively deal in that world. Absolutely. I think there is a clear market, but for where we're at in our business being so new and you know, ⁓ again, I was raised in Caboolt child. come from, you know, it's lower socioeconomics and whatever else now cost a million dollars to buy a house there, but you know, is what it is. But you know, it's, it's the everyday Aussies at this point. I want to really help guide and who need the most education and who need the most guidance and who will benefit. the most from this service. True. And I think on the flip side, I think the builders will because you'll help them better understand the client. Yeah, correct. they're looking for. Yeah, for sure. their level of education. So, absolutely. Anyway, once again, that was so cool chatting to you, Emily. Absolutely. Thank you. had I say it, not thank you. See you next week. See you next week. think that's even better. Thank you. I'm grateful for you wanting to come on and co-host with us, but yeah. See you next week, Emily. You're fucking weapon. I don't know what we're going to talk about. bazooka more than anything, isn't it? Well, let's put the call out. What do want me and Emily to talk about? Yeah, hit us. Hit us up. I'll put this one out on social. below or comment below is what I'm supposed to say. Comment below on what you would like me and Emily to go and tackle over these next few weeks and we'll tackle it because I think she knows more than me, so we're good hands. Let's get spicy. Let's go.