Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / Sales Training Is Useless Without This One Thing | EP10 | Chris Dawson

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Sales Training Is Useless Without This One Thing | EP10 | Chris Dawson · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

0:00
Welcome to the podcast. Here's a sneak peek of what's coming up
0:03
in today's episode. Did you used to be crap sales? I'm gonna say
0:06
I think I still am. Every time I think I've got good something comes
0:09
along to make me realize how little I know. So then I learn
0:12
more, and I get better, and then something comes along and makes
0:15
me realize, oh, I want to be like them. They're amazing. And
0:18
I think that's one of the ways that I did slowly get better. I
0:20
genuinely still think I'm not as good as a lot of people. There
0:24
was a time that I thought I was really good. Okay, I turned up
0:27
at the front on my first day, and I was heartbroken. Didn't
0:30
have a clue. I was awful. I was young. I had no emotional
0:33
intelligence. I was naive. Should have been fired from
0:36
these jobs, but they supported me, and they helped me, and I
0:39
started to get good. Let's grow our people, because we are going
0:43
to get off this hamster wheel every month, every quarter being
0:46
a slog. What would you say to an SDR when you're coaching them
0:49
and you can tell that they've just got it in them. They're
0:51
exceptional, they're talented. They can do this, but the
0:54
monotony is killing them. I've worked with a lot of SDRs, and
0:57
one of the first things I ask them is, when we lost out a week
0:59
off same call day after day in the same office on the same
1:03
phone, and before you know it, you've slipped into that
1:06
pattern. Take a step back, strip it back to the basics, go to
1:10
absolute bare minimum in your calls. That's the advice you'd
1:13
give to managers on how to help their SDRs break this monotony
1:16
and keep going. The first advice I'd give to managers is, what
1:20
piece of advice would you give to someone looking to step up
1:23
into their first leadership role? Ask yourself, why you want
1:26
to do it? Do you really want to be a leader? And it's no longer
1:29
about you. What's the most common flaw you see in sales
1:33
managers using the myth that they haven't got time to look
1:37
after their team, because everything else should be
1:40
secondary. Biggest thing you can do as a sales manager is take,
1:48
hello and welcome to another episode of The I used to be crap
1:51
at sales podcast. I'm your host, Mark Akers, the co founder and
1:54
Head of Sales here at my sales coach, we called the podcast I
1:58
used to be crap at sales because all of our guests used to be
2:02
today. I've got the director of sixth door and the co host of
2:07
the sales Dojo podcast. That's Chris Dawson. Chris, welcome
2:13
from podcast host to podcast guest. It's great to have you
2:16
here today. How you feeling
2:18
very good, really good to finally come and have a chat
2:20
with you. Mark, it's
2:21
great to have you here. Let's kick it off with a yes, no
2:23
question, Chris, did you used to be crap at sales.
2:27
I'm going to swerve the yes, no answer. I'm going to say I think
2:31
I still am. Okay. Tell me more about that. So my sales career
2:35
is vast, and I've always looked at myself going through plateaus
2:39
where every time I think I've got good summit comes along to
2:43
make me realize how little I know. So then I learn more, and
2:46
I get better, and then something comes along and makes me
2:49
realize, oh, I want to be like them. They're amazing. And I
2:53
keep going through these phases, and I think that's one of the
2:55
ways that I did slowly get better, was I genuinely still
3:00
think I'm not as good as a lot of people. When was the most
3:04
recent example of when you felt like that?
3:08
So I don't remember if you remember back in lockdown, we
3:12
run a show every night on clubhouse, clubhouse. Yeah.
3:16
Listened. Amazing experience, not lockdown. I know that was
3:20
grim for a lot of people, but I got to spend an hour every night
3:24
for 297
3:26
days, I think we did it in a row, listening to people from
3:30
all over the world take on how to sell. I was just a sponge. I
3:34
was I got like, seven notebooks full of this stuff that we were
3:38
learning from people, from yourself as well, and from rich
3:41
and, you know, for Stephen hyman's daughter, was on there
3:45
some nights, and people from Bali and Canada and the US and
3:49
South Africa and everything. And it really humbled me that I'd
3:52
got into a position where, you know, I was feeling pretty proud
3:55
of myself, built a successful sales training business, closed
3:57
big deals. So I'm not saying that I'm a bad salesperson at
4:00
all, but I still think I'm, I'm a millionth of what I could be.
4:04
I'll give you an idea. Go ahead. So you were just telling me off
4:08
camera that you're, I'm allowed to say. So I'm assuming, if not,
4:10
we'll edit out. But you're writing a book, right? I am at
4:13
the moment, yep, um, that's a book. There seven notepads. Oh
4:18
yeah, worth of learnings. Oh yeah. Imagine the book that you
4:21
could write there. Just each page is a lesson, right? Oh, I
4:26
mean, the rooms that we did so like one night, seven o'clock at
4:30
night, everyone's been stuck in the house for weeks. There's
4:33
people dying all over the world, and there's me and Leon going,
4:37
hi everyone. Tonight, we're going to talk about how to get
4:39
referral business. Yeah, and 150 people from around the world,
4:42
salespeople, sales professionals would come on and give us their
4:44
ideas on how to do that, and I'd write it all down. I felt like a
4:47
thief, like we were getting this for free. And yeah, we've got so
4:50
how to get referral business, how to make a cold call, how to
4:52
handle a price objection, how to deal with your mindset, how to
4:56
raise VC funding. Could be anything, and I've got notebooks
4:59
full of it. Yeah.
5:00
That
5:00
is 296 lockdown lessons for sales professionals. I'd buy
5:06
that book. I'm going to buy your first book that's coming out,
5:08
but I'm going to buy the sequel. So when you think back to your
5:13
sales career, one of the questions I love to ask is there
5:16
any Howler mistakes that you can think back to and share with us,
5:21
there's
5:22
got to be so many, hasn't there? I've high five to Chico exec,
5:26
not realizing they were the chief exec anyway, proper High
5:29
Five went in.
5:31
If I go back a long time, still my very earliest sales job, or
5:36
one of my very early sales jobs, I was 17. I was a student the
5:40
summer of 96 Brit pops raging. The sun was shining. I was 17.
5:45
What a time to be alive. All my friends were picking cabbages in
5:50
fields in the summer holidays to make money or working in shops
5:54
or laboring. And I'm, like a lot of salespeople, inherently,
5:57
quite a lazy guy. Mark, yeah, I managed to find a job selling
6:00
oil paintings door to door, like you do, and I went off on summer
6:06
evenings listening to pulp and blur on the way there in a
6:08
minibus with a bag of oil paintings to a housing estate in
6:12
Cheshire or somewhere. I'd be given three streets to Canvas
6:15
for three hours, and we'd knock on the door and maybe go into it
6:19
later on what we said and how we do it, but I've been in places
6:23
and got drunk with people. I've been chased by dogs. I've had
6:25
the police called on me. I've made dreadful mistakes. I think
6:30
one of the biggest I've made was quite recently. And I'm sorry if
6:37
you're listening or watching this, if it was you, we added
6:40
when it first came out, a note taking function to zoom. You
6:43
know, it dictates everything that was
6:46
written. And once the meeting had finished, we said some less
6:50
than complimentary things about the person on the meeting, which
6:53
in hindsight, we stood up for. They were fairly well deserved,
6:56
not realizing it, will automatically email them a full
7:00
transcription of everything we've just said with your name.
7:03
So it literally said Chris, and there's this is word for word,
7:07
what I said, and it dropped in his emails, and we didn't
7:09
realize for like two hours, until we got an email, which was
7:15
rather harshly written. I knew what had the second I opened
7:17
this email, I knew what had happened. So we've turned that
7:20
note taking function off straightaway. Important lesson
7:23
for everybody, technology is listening all the time now, be
7:26
dead careful what you've got attached. Yeah, that didn't go
7:29
very well. That is a hell of a lesson. A heck of a lesson,
7:32
yeah? So just to be really clear that this is on Zoom, you've got
7:35
the AI summary. So that AI summary, yeah, is this a plug in
7:39
that you use in addition to that, or is this the Zoom AI?
7:41
No, we were using an otter plugin. So otter then
7:45
automatically emails everybody invited to that meeting with the
7:48
full transcription, whether they were on it at that point or not,
7:52
right? And it's literally your name, what you said, somebody
7:55
else's name, what they said. And I think the email started with,
8:00
and, excuse my language, but word for word, Dear Chris,
8:04
here's a fucking life hack for you. Turn your transcription
8:08
service off if you're going to talk smack about people. If you
8:12
ever had it where your heart just goes in your stomach, you
8:15
go cold. So we're like, Well, what are we going to do? Like,
8:20
there's no excuse. You bang to write it literally says your
8:23
name. This is what you said. You can't get out of it, so we
8:27
double down. Really, there was no way out of it. There was no
8:29
excuse. So we double down. I just reply, and I said, you
8:31
know, obviously no offense calls you talk differently in the
8:37
background, don't you? But we did mean what we said. Would you
8:40
like some feedback? We just went for it. Double down on it. There
8:43
was no other way out of it. Didn't get the deal, no, like,
8:47
didn't get anything further. But, yeah, these heart stopping
8:51
moments. Wow.
8:52
What a story. I can't wait to hear off camera exactly what was
8:55
said. But there we go. Okay, so I was looking at your career,
8:59
and I feel like we've known each other for years. Yeah, like in
9:04
lockdown, I listened on clubhouse, and I don't think I
9:08
ever spoke on it. Maybe
9:10
I did, but I'm sure we did have a chat now and then, Mark, yeah,
9:13
no,
9:13
maybe we did, but I remember listening, and I thought I'd
9:15
known each other for ages, but obviously we've already met a
9:18
few times, but I was looking over your background, I see
9:22
obviously started in advertising in 1996 as you say, a year to be
9:28
alive. That was a year before I started secondary school. Just
9:31
not trying to make you feel old. I'm an old father, that's okay.
9:35
Then retail sales, then a couple of years in telesales, then you
9:40
moved to iron Mars, a sales team leader, but still an IC yet
9:44
managing a team of up to 12 people and promoted Sales
9:47
Training Manager in 2007 which is, I think, where you found
9:50
your calling, so to speak. Yeah, then ahead of sales training at
9:54
BT for just over three years before founding sixth door, so
9:59
sort. You told it all up period of 27 and a half years you've
10:05
been in this year, really? Yeah, I was gonna ask you, how long
10:09
you think you crap for like, in that period, because one of the
10:11
things people say to me is, like, probably crap at eight
10:13
years or 10 years. But obviously you've slightly thrown a curb in
10:16
there saying you feel like, and I get that logic, yeah.
10:20
Well, would it let me put some definition on that? There was a
10:23
time that I thought I was really good, okay, the few instances
10:26
that stand out to me, Mark one was, I've got no discernible
10:31
skill. My family laughs that in the Apocalypse, when we need
10:35
people to rebuild civilization, I am going to be useless, yeah,
10:40
unless you want somebody who's great at talking to people and
10:43
selling, but if we need to build houses and men stuff, not a
10:46
chance. So I've always sold. It's the only discernible skill
10:49
I've got. So when I was younger, sold oil paintings door to door.
10:53
I paid my way through university selling Pokemon paraphernalia on
10:57
the street like I hawked it on the street. My first trip to
11:01
Newcastle ever was, I made posters of famous footballers on
11:06
a PC, which in the late 90s, early 2000s clearly weren't very
11:09
good. Had them laminated, and then I just stand outside St
11:13
James's Park at big match days and sell them on the street
11:17
until we got chased off by other hawkers or the police or
11:19
whatever. And it was that whole entrepreneurial sell or you
11:23
don't pay the rent sort of spirit. So when I got my first
11:26
sales job, I went to it thinking I was a really good salesperson.
11:29
This was my first lesson that I wasn't market stall street
11:33
corners, door knocking, B to C. I sold fake glasses with a fake
11:37
nose on. I had a bag of 250 of them big black glasses with a
11:42
big nose and a mustache attached. And at University of
11:45
Central Lancashire, they used to have a thing called The Longest
11:47
Day, last day of term. They'd have a 12, it's before 24 hour
11:52
licensing. They opened at midday, closed at two at night,
11:55
14 hours of Bedlam, drinking parties, bands, all that lot.
11:58
There was a queue half a mile long to get into this thing, and
12:02
I just stood at one end of the queue with a pair of glasses
12:05
with a fake nose and a fake mustache on with a bag full of
12:07
them with a sign around my neck and lots of them, two quid. By
12:10
the time I got to the front of the queue, they'd all gone. I
12:12
had a load of money in my pocket, and I went and enjoyed
12:15
the longest day. And it was dead easy, because by the time I'd
12:17
sold some of them, everybody would see other people wearing
12:19
them and they were and it just kind of snowballed. So all I've
12:22
ever done was sell so when I got my first what I'd call
12:25
professional sales job, which we can go into later, I thought,
12:28
I'll smash this like, how dead easy. But it was on the phone.
12:32
Never done that. I turned up at the on my first day full of
12:36
spunk and ego like most 18 year olds are, yeah, and I was
12:40
heartbroken when I picked up the phone. I just didn't have a
12:43
clue. I was absolutely and I was for months, I was awful, and I'd
12:48
learned this roller coaster really quickly that so many SDRs
12:51
have of. One, the phone is really hard. Two, how do you
12:54
control your mindset? How do you cope with rejection? How do you
12:58
hit a target? All these things. And that was one of those first
13:01
plateaus of, I'm really good at sales, to Oh no, I don't know
13:04
anything, do I? And that was kind of that beginning of that
13:08
journey, to use a phrase as we go along, to me realizing that
13:12
I'm still not very good. Who helped you turn that around?
13:15
Number of people along the way and a number of happenstance
13:19
took me quite a time to get my head around the phone in my
13:22
first phone job, I had a lack of confidence, which had been
13:24
knocked I was young. I had no emotional intelligence. I was
13:27
naive, but I learned it, and I started going with I had a few
13:32
people that really supported me. I often call out the MD of the
13:37
champion newspaper group, lady called Betty Drummond, who
13:40
should have fired me? Should have been fired from these jobs,
13:44
but they supported me, and they helped me, and I started to get
13:47
good, and then I went and I moved on, and you're bad again.
13:50
And it's that, that step up. So there's been a number of people
13:53
along the way. There's been myself, there's been a number of
13:55
books, there's been some points of realization, and I suppose at
13:59
the point in time I am now, it's churlish off me to say I'm not
14:02
very good at selling. You know, there's, it's that classic
14:05
imposter syndrome. There's a wealth of evidence to say I am,
14:08
but there's probably a wealth of people out there that would go,
14:10
No, it's not. It's crap, because they dealt with me during a crap
14:14
phase. So yeah, it's an interesting
14:16
ride. Well, there might be one prospect in particular just got
14:18
there might be somebody
14:19
there who's pretty hungry with me. Yeah, no,
14:21
I know you're being very British and humbling when you say you're
14:27
not. I know you're a phenomenal sales trainer and coach, really
14:30
lucky to have your time here today. But yeah, it's
14:33
interesting that ego that you would have had going into your
14:37
first job, and I understand that, like, actually, you know,
14:40
some very entrepreneurial young age, and you seem to have lots
14:43
of stories. I'm sure we could spend half hour talking about
14:46
all the ways you made money and sold it and early. Oh yeah, but
14:49
let's talk about that first job then. So how did you go from
14:52
that, that humbling moment, to being a team leader at iomm? I.
15:00
That's quite astounding. You say you should have been sacked and
15:02
you weren't. How did you go from that to that? So
15:07
very potted history was I got I got really good on the phone,
15:11
started beating target, then I decided to go uni, because at
15:15
the time in the 90s, that was the thing you had to do if you
15:17
wanted to get anywhere. Sales wasn't recognized like it is
15:20
now, but I sold stuff to pay my way through there. One of the
15:23
jobs I got at uni was a clothes shop, and it was you got
15:25
commission on the clothes that you sold. So it's a different
15:28
type of selling, again, hustling for clothing. People would come
15:32
in, we'd have DJs in the windows, a really cool clothes
15:34
shop, and you just go over with a cup of tea. First thing I
15:37
learned make them a cup of tea, because you've got them for 20
15:39
minutes, then, because they've got to drink the cup of tea and
15:42
you can chat about it. Oh, I thought you'd see those, those
15:44
of you in Yeah, you're right. That would look good, wouldn't
15:46
it? And off we go. And we're hustling for clothes. Watch. We
15:48
got commission on how many clothes we sold, and I was all
15:50
about the commission, but then I wasn't making enough money,
15:52
because there's no money in retail, so I look for where's
15:55
the more money. And I got into what I would class as my first
15:58
proper SDR role, which wasn't recognized like that back then,
16:00
but they had a really good basic for the period, dreadful for
16:04
now, for the period. And that attracted me is that if I get
16:08
commission on top as well, I've got a bit of security, and off
16:11
we go. And when I started, I'd been hustling clothes again. I
16:15
was at that ego point, and I went in and I actually smashed
16:18
it really well when I when I started off. But it was my first
16:21
full time SDR role. And the thing I hadn't learned at that
16:24
point, I'd learned to objection handle and open a call and put
16:27
the call time in and the dials. What I hadn't learned was the
16:31
mindset thing. So I started off really well, with my ego, with
16:36
my skill, I was doing great. Then what I'd not learnt is how
16:40
to deal with the monotony that started to get to me, not to
16:43
deal with the bad week when you inevitably get it. Still only in
16:47
my early 20s, I didn't have the EQ to deal with that as well,
16:52
how to separate what's going on outside the office from inside.
16:55
It was that extra part that I've not learned then, and that was
16:58
the next platter. I went downhill again there, and I just
17:01
it was like steps going up a plateau, not that good, up
17:05
again, until I eventually got on that thing. One of the big
17:10
things that did help with that was, and I don't know if anybody
17:13
listening to this can empathize with this, I moved offices. I
17:18
was with a certain group, certain place with a load of
17:22
people doing it in a certain way that just I didn't gel with. I
17:26
didn't like going in the office in the morning. I didn't really
17:28
want to be there. I wanted to get the call over with. And it
17:31
put me in quite a dark place, as anybody who's been in SDR can
17:36
testify to. And I moved offices to same company, but to a
17:39
different place with different people, with a different leader,
17:41
with a different outlook, and it was like a fresh start. And I
17:44
really took off then and again, just up these steps and up these
17:48
steps, and then you don't realize it, you're suddenly a
17:51
lot better. It's like a sport or learning to drive or anything,
17:56
because it's so incremental. You don't realize till you look
17:59
back, how much better you've got and then I started getting
18:02
consistent on target and helping other people get consistent on
18:05
target and learning new ways, and then reading books. And I
18:10
think the biggest pivotal moment at that point was I took it
18:13
seriously. All of a sudden,
18:14
there's a lot you said there that I'd love to dive into. I
18:19
think that that last bit of taking it seriously is a big
18:22
thing, because I think a lot of people fall into sales Well, I
18:26
mean, we all, yeah, exactly right. And we do that almost
18:30
can't do anything else. Yeah, I'll take that job, or I need
18:33
money, or this, I'll do this for a little while. And it's that
18:37
realization of, actually, this is a skill, this thing that I do
18:42
that pays my salary, that pays for my mortgage, funds my
18:47
lifestyle, this is a skill. If I can fine tune this and you take
18:51
it seriously, I can make more money. But the bit I really want
18:55
to ask you about is a challenge that I see SDRs have themselves,
19:00
but managers have with SDRs the monotony. Yeah, so let's think
19:06
about, first of all, from an SDR point of view, right? We know
19:10
how important that role is. It is vital to pipeline fixes
19:15
almost every problem that's monotonous. Yeah, every day is
19:19
the same thing. Let's talk about the SDR first, and I want to get
19:22
to a manager. But what would you say to an SDR and you're
19:26
coaching them, and you can tell that they've just got it in
19:29
them. They're exceptional, they're talented, they can do
19:31
this, but the monotony is killing them. Yeah. What do you
19:34
say to them? How do you coach them?
19:36
There's a number of things. And you know, one thing I've really
19:38
noticed within the SDR world as well. And I don't know whether
19:43
this is just me that's or if you relate to this, people don't
19:45
take time off. People become obsessed with the role, and
19:50
they've got a target here in the field, they can't take any time
19:52
off. And I've worked with a lot of SDRs, and one of the first
19:56
things I asked them is, when we last had a week off? And quite.
20:00
Half an hour eight months ago. I'm like, and it's not about
20:03
burnout or any of these things, but it's about you just need
20:07
that reset a little bit. You've got to take that step back.
20:11
There's Have you ever seen Dead Poets Society? Robin Williams
20:15
film? Highly recommend it. So very short. Gist of it is, Robin
20:19
Williams is a maverick English teacher in a private school in
20:22
the 50s, and he's trying to get the students out of this normal
20:26
mindset, that they have this regimented mindset. So he takes
20:29
them all in the courtyard, so there's 25 students, and he
20:32
says, right, I want you to all work around the courtyard in a
20:34
circle, but do a silly walk. Do whatever you want. You can hop,
20:38
you can skip, you can jump, you can do strides, you can walk
20:41
backwards, do whatever you want. All work, all walk in all
20:44
different ways, going round, and within three circuits of the
20:48
courtyard, they're all walking in absolute unison. They're all
20:52
marching to a beat together. And this is how an SDRs life can go
20:57
same call day after day in the same office on the same phone,
21:01
and before you know it, you've slipped into that pattern. You
21:05
need a I know it's the most used phrase now, isn't it, in a
21:08
different way, but you need a pattern interrupt. That's what
21:10
pattern interrupt really means. It's interrupting your pattern
21:13
of what you're doing things in. So take that step back, review
21:18
your script, listen to your call. What can you throw
21:21
overboard? We find the monotony tends to lead to over
21:24
complication, to less interest, to take a step back, strip it
21:31
back to the basics. Go to absolute bare minimum in your
21:34
calls, take a bit of time off.
21:37
I think they take a bit of time interesting. I know. So I think
21:42
I've managed salespeople for about eight years. I don't think
21:47
I've ever sort of been conscious of them taking like just except
21:50
holidays never declined a holiday as it comes in. But I
21:53
don't think I've ever thought, oh, when's the last time you had
21:56
a holiday? I don't think that's ever entered my mind. And that's
21:59
that's really eye opening? Well, we
22:01
you just go online. We live in this hustle culture, don't we?
22:04
Yeah, that's 10x hustle. You know, time offs for wimps and
22:08
all this lot.
22:10
Well, that's changing now, though, it
22:12
really is, and I'm glad about that, but it is. You're running
22:15
at 50% so first thing I'd look at is, do you take time out? Do
22:19
you chill out? Because if your brain focuses on one thing for
22:22
so long, you become blind to that one thing. What you need to
22:26
do, take that bit of time out, take the step back, review your
22:29
calls, shake it off, and then simplify everything. Throw
22:33
everything overboard. Take it back to the bare bones of your
22:36
job and the bits that are enjoyable and almost like a
22:40
fresh start with it. But there is also a shelf life to an SDR,
22:45
the just is, we know this, there's a shelf life within a
22:49
company to an SDR, what do you think a shelf life is? Varies
22:53
from SDR to SDR, I get that, but it's very rare. You see somebody
22:58
smashing the numbers inside out non stop for more than three
23:01
years, and it won't. And
23:03
I'm guessing, when you speak with managers that have this
23:06
problem, that's the advice you give to managers on how to help
23:09
their SDRs break this monotony and keep going. Well,
23:13
the first advice I'd give to managers is what conversation
23:17
you've already had with them. And it's amazing how many
23:19
haven't even had the conversation, they've just
23:21
guessed at what the problem might be. Or they don't see it
23:26
as burnout. They don't see it as monotony. They see it as oh
23:30
well, they're lazy, or I need them to have more passion. And
23:35
it all comes from somewhere, doesn't it? Nobody. And here's
23:39
the thing, this is what I do say to managers straight away,
23:41
nobody went to get a sales job, went through the interview
23:45
process, decided to take this challenge on, and on the first
23:49
day, thought, you know they're making the sandwiches and
23:51
they're ironing the tie or whatever it is, and they think,
23:53
you know what, I'm going to go this sales job. I'm going to be
23:56
shit. Nobody went into sales with that. Everybody has gone to
24:01
a sales job thinking, I'm going to wear money, I'm going to be
24:03
really good, I'm going to get loads of sales this is going to
24:06
be great. Nobody intentionally gets a sales job and wants to be
24:09
shipped. Something has happened along the way, and that is
24:13
either they've not been coached, supported, trained, managed, or
24:18
it's not for them. Some people aren't going out for it, but
24:21
this has to be recognized and dealt with sooner, rather than
24:24
later. So what are
24:26
the telltale signs that a manager can look for to
24:29
proactively spot this before it's too
24:32
late. Activity levels starting to drop. Call length starting to
24:38
drop, was a huge red flag for me. You know, call volumes gone
24:42
up, but call length, average call length has got down. That
24:46
means they're going, I ever next? They've just lost that
24:50
thing. So the the call rates going up, but their average call
24:53
length is going down. It's amazing. I hate KPIs, because
24:57
people manage with them, which is a dreadful way to manage.
25:00
People, but as a trainer, maths doesn't lie, and you can spot
25:05
patterns and where people are challenged by that. So if I'm
25:07
seeing somebody's making 150 dials a day, and their average
25:10
call length is a minute and a half, but they're not brand new,
25:14
and there's a there's a decline in that, right? They've hit that
25:18
point where they're just bored. They're going through the
25:20
motions. They're not engaging, they're not trying. Have they
25:23
come close to burnout on that, or have to come close to that
25:25
monotonous cycle?
25:27
Fascinating. I agree with you on the KPIs, but I can see why.
25:30
Like you say, the math doesn't lie, and it helps you figure out
25:33
where to spend your time, to dig deeper. You just can't make a
25:36
decision at that.
25:37
Don't manage people with KPIs. Yeah, coach and support people
25:40
with KPIs. You know, first thing I'll look at when I go and meet
25:44
a team. So here's, here's Sharon his call stats that they've got
25:49
from whatever system that they're using, if I can look at
25:51
right? They've done 60 calls today. Their average call length
25:56
is five and a half minutes. But they haven't booked a single
25:59
qualified meeting. Well, they haven't got a problem saying
26:01
hello, starting a call, having a conversation, getting past early
26:04
objections, wherever there's something going wrong at the end
26:07
of those conversations, because nothing's coming out of them. I
26:10
can spot that just from the maths, before I've even met
26:12
Sharon, or here's Sharon. She's done 180 dials today, and her
26:17
average call length is 28 seconds, right? You're not
26:20
getting anywhere near a conversation. Let's look at your
26:23
call list, your sheet, your messaging, your voice tone, your
26:27
how you're opening the call up. Could do that before we've even
26:29
listened to a call, yeah, but that is not management. That's
26:32
coaching and development and
26:34
support. It's using the data to find the clues where to spend
26:36
your time. Exactly the clues are either. So here's what, here's
26:40
what I want to focus on now, leading training and coaching
26:44
sales teams. Yeah, let's look at it. First of all, from
26:47
inheriting a thing. So you you inherited sales teams a couple
26:51
of times, by the looks of it,
26:52
yeah, it's all. We've built them around me or whatever, but I've
26:55
had sales teams. Yeah. What advice
26:57
would you give to someone that's about to inherit a sales team.
27:01
Straight
27:01
advice is put your ego in the bin. And this is the thing.
27:06
Quite often people have inherited a sales team because
27:08
they're a good seller, which is no reason to give somebody a
27:11
sales team, because it's almost the opposite skill set that you
27:15
need. So one put your ego in the bin. You're now a leader. This
27:20
is not about you at all. Yes, you might have been good, but it
27:25
doesn't mean you can tell people. Well, what I did was, if
27:27
I were you, I'd that's the last thing people want. So one, you
27:30
got to put your ego in the bin. It's not about you. Two, you're
27:32
probably going to make less money than the people sat in
27:35
front of you. Good. If you're helping them make loads of
27:37
money, you're being a good leader. Yeah, you'll, you'll get
27:40
your benefit at some point. Next point I make, don't do anything
27:46
when you start. So many people go into a leadership position.
27:49
They want to put their stamp on it, don't they? This is how a
27:51
lead. We're going to change this. We're going to do that
27:53
differently from now on. Stop observe, get to know your team
27:58
first. What's going right? What's going wrong? Who are the
28:01
different characters in there? Just take a period of time to
28:06
observe and reflect. Great
28:08
advice. Give me a mistake you've made when you've started
28:12
managing a sales team that you've inherited.
28:16
You know what? Really, honestly, I've loved the attention and the
28:20
title and all the stuff that goes with it. It's, it's ego
28:25
led, yeah, and I've, I've tried to lead before now by telling
28:35
people what to do. I've tried to lead by just do it my way. Trust
28:40
me, I was really good at this. I've led by incentive,
28:47
ridiculous incentive, which doesn't work. I've led by do
28:52
this, or I'll shout, you know, I've made every embarrassing
28:56
mistake in the book. Why? Because it's probably how I was
29:01
led. This is where we see sales leaders come in. Is you lead,
29:05
how you were led? And my first, in any way, sales leadership
29:09
role I came out of, in hindsight, a very masculine Wolf
29:15
of Wall Street Style, scream if you want to go faster culture.
29:20
That was how I was led. You know, I was brought up with
29:22
buyers or liars close them or they close you, either way a
29:25
sale is made. Give us a date, an expiry date, and it was all
29:30
banging fists on the tables and all this real macho sort of
29:34
culture. So that's how I led. I cringe looking back at how I
29:39
used to act with people. Why? Because it made me feel better
29:43
about myself. It made me feel important. What a Biff, What a
29:47
dreadful way of looking at things. Yeah, when you look at
29:51
all the best leaders you've had, and this is one of the stories,
29:53
one of the questions asked at beginning of a lot of training
29:56
when we're talking about sales leadership, isn't, name your
29:58
best leader, name your best manager. Name your favorite
30:01
teacher. Everybody's got a favorite teacher, haven't they?
30:04
Who's your favorite teacher? Mark? Can you
30:07
remember? So I probably go back to I think about this person a
30:11
lot. Actually. It's weird to ask that his name was Mr. Brace I
30:15
think it was in year four. So long, long, long time ago. Yeah,
30:19
but I remember Mr. Braceford more than most teachers, primary
30:22
school teacher, obviously. What
30:23
is it about Mr. Braceford that stands out to I
30:27
felt like he was I felt like he was a big champion for me. So I
30:33
was the youngest in the class. July, baby birthdays tomorrow. I
30:39
was the youngest in the class. I I wasn't very bright at that
30:43
age. Obviously, it's an easy joke to be made about not being
30:46
that bright now, but we won't go there. I remember there was just
30:50
certain things I struggled with, like, like spelling longer
30:54
words, reading out loud to the class, but I always felt like he
30:57
put his arm around me, Tom was gonna be okay. Always fed back
31:02
to my parents that, you know, look, he's struggling with this,
31:04
but he's trying really hard. I believe in Mark, I remember once
31:09
in particular, it was a really, like daunting experience. We had
31:13
to write an address like you would in the letter. And if you
31:17
think like the way the address, it kind of goes in dense and in,
31:20
right? And he had it on the board, and he said, I want
31:23
everybody to write this address on a shit paper exactly how you
31:27
sit on the board. And I remember kids didn't do it exactly how it
31:31
was on the board. They kind of wrote it straight so, you know,
31:34
first name, address, all in a straight line. And he walked
31:37
around and he just started going, wrong. Start again,
31:40
wrong, start, again, wrong, start. And I remember like just
31:43
every time he said wrong, he was coming towards my desk, and I
31:47
thought, I've not done it perfectly. Mine's not quite
31:50
indented. And he went over. He went nice effort mark. And I
31:54
remember thinking he's let me off there. It was just something
31:58
in that moment. So, yeah, like, I just felt like he he's looked
32:02
after me there, he helps me out, he supports, encourages me, etc.
32:06
So, yeah, I'd say Mr. Braced.
32:08
Well, two things here. Then one, if Mr. Brace is still alive,
32:13
do you know what I'd love to find? I just know how to spell
32:15
that last name. I'm still not very
32:17
good at spelling. Have you gone and told him I wouldn't know how
32:19
to find it? One Amazing Thing to hear of somebody, by the way,
32:21
you made a massive impact on my life. Yeah, let's do that. The
32:25
second thing is, you championed you. Yeah? He gave you great
32:28
feedback, and he made you he lit up the room for you one day.
32:32
Yeah. Wasn't that what a great leader does? Yeah. So when
32:34
people are looking at wanting to be a sales leader, especially
32:37
various simplest exercises, who's your favorite teacher? Why
32:41
do that? Because they're the earliest leaders in our life.
32:44
They form a lot of ideas about great leadership without us
32:48
realizing it. Whereas we think of sales leadership as get sales
32:52
results, get the numbers in KPIs reports, it's not at all. It's
32:57
you are there to help those people in front of you be the
33:01
best that they can be at their job. It's all about them. When I
33:05
look back to my earliest days of sales leadership and team
33:08
leadership and everything, it was all about me. And I
33:12
absolutely cringe. I remember one day putting up, printing out
33:16
the day before call times and sellotaping them to the walls of
33:22
the office, to name and shame people. What a dick. But you
33:26
were given a senior job, a leadership job with zero
33:29
training, zero accountability, zero coaching. You were good at
33:32
doing that. Do this. Of course, it falls apart.
33:34
I talk about this all the time, like that. You're great at
33:37
sales. You get promoted, but you don't get the support in being a
33:41
great leader. So it is that do what I did, because that's what,
33:43
you know. How did you make that switch from being your own
33:47
words, bit of a dick here and there, making those mistakes to
33:51
get it right? How did you make that switch?
33:54
You know what? There's, there's a time that really stands out in
33:57
my mind. We went, I took, at the time I was, had a head of sales
34:00
training for when I say B to part of bt. Bt is a massive
34:04
beast. Yeah. So it was web clicks, advertising, online
34:09
advertising, SEO, all that sort of thing, B to B and I took some
34:14
of the sales team to an external trainer that the bigwigs had
34:19
brought in who were going to teach us how to coach, and it
34:23
was just a dreadful day. So I was in there with this team of
34:28
people. This girl came in very pleasant, but things that stand
34:34
out, she is mad in it. She had no shoes and socks on, and she
34:37
sat there with smelly feet in this room, and I could see my
34:42
team were going, what? What's going on? Like, you know? So
34:45
she's lost the room already. Then she spent the first half
34:48
hour just talking about herself and her IB for holiday. And then
34:51
she get really condescending, and everything my team would
34:54
bring up about how we do a sales approach, how we do whatever.
34:57
Oh, no, you don't do that. Really. And she was losing the
35:00
team really badly. And we got to one point where I took this
35:06
trainer to one side, and I said, I'm really sorry. I'm taking my
35:08
team out of her. And I didn't know, I suddenly felt quite
35:10
paternal towards them. I remember saying, we're going,
35:13
we're not we don't have to. It's a waste of our time. We don't
35:16
need this. You don't have to be spoken to like that. We're
35:18
going. And I suddenly felt that felt right. That was the right
35:24
thing. And you know when things just click in your head and I
35:27
was I need to be more paternal towards them. I need to put them
35:31
first. I need to have the wherewithal and the freedom to
35:35
go, No, this is my team. This is what's going to be best for
35:37
them. Everybody above me. You've put me in this position to lead
35:41
them. Well, leave me to it, give me some feedback. And I took
35:44
them out, and I wrote a very politically worded email about
35:49
why we'd done that, and the feedback I got was absolutely
35:52
the right move. Very well on like you showed leadership. And
35:56
I was like, right, I kind of get it now it's not about me, and it
36:01
kind of built up from there.
36:03
How easy is it for you when you work with sales leaders? Because
36:07
typically when a sales team is underperforming, yeah, I look to
36:11
the sales straight away. Yeah. How do you help them go on that
36:15
journey from realizing that and actually changing because it's
36:19
not their fault. They've been put in that position because of
36:22
their ability to sell, but now they need to change. How do you
36:26
work with them, to change the way in which they approach their
36:30
job to get the best out their team?
36:32
Yeah, it's a challenge, isn't it? So here to build the first
36:35
challenge is she's really the sales leader that's involved in
36:38
the decision to bring you in in the first place. Oh, yeah. And
36:41
how I operate is, I'm going to find out what your problem is
36:45
first, and then design and build training to solve that problem,
36:49
not just here's a course on this that's pointless. And quite
36:52
often we find out your sales team are actually quite good.
36:56
They're just not being led particularly well, and you've
36:59
got to be careful with that conversation. So the first thing
37:01
we look at is, and the first look at is and the first bit of
37:04
discovery we do is tell me about how often you give them
37:06
feedback, how often do they review their own meetings, their
37:08
own calls. Show me their action plans that they've got. What are
37:10
they each working on personally? Right now, none of that can be
37:14
delivered. All right. Tell me more about that. Has that ever
37:18
been in place? Tell me about how you get led. How do you get
37:21
coached? When do you get feedback as a leader? And we
37:23
just try and bring this consciousness up of, oh, there's
37:26
this whole layer of support missing right now. And then. The
37:30
second part is, we will not sell your training if you don't take
37:34
follow on coaching. We've got to embed it or a program for that
37:39
company to embed the training afterwards.
37:41
So I think I know the answer, because I'm with you. Stand
37:44
Alone training doesn't work. No, you need to follow on coaching.
37:47
But how are you absolutely strict? As you will not sell or
37:52
stand off training no matter what the circumstance without
37:55
the follow on coaching?
37:56
No, because you can operate a business like that, right? We
37:59
will say, Here's your follow on coach options. This is why you
38:01
have it. What we are strict on, though, and we very openly say,
38:05
if you just buy a one off half day course to solve a big
38:09
problem, keep your money to stick in plaster. It just
38:13
doesn't work. Because if it did, why wouldn't you spend 50 quid
38:17
on Amazon, buy everybody a book and hope they read it? Because
38:21
all you're doing is hoping they're going to use the
38:22
training. It's exactly the same thing. What we hear is, Well, if
38:26
we could just do a course on this, everything will be fine.
38:29
No, it wouldn't, because that's just not how it works. How are
38:32
you going to embed it? How are you going to follow it on? How
38:34
are you going to do this? Now, if they want to do it, that's
38:36
fine. You know, we're a business. At the end of the day,
38:38
we'll sell the training, but we will sell it with the open eyes.
38:42
We'll tell you right now, this won't work.
38:43
I think the problem there. And tell me if you think I've got
38:46
this wrong, but the sales leader just lives too much in a month
38:50
to month, quarter to quarter cycle of what can we do to get a
38:53
quick win, to get a quick fix? They're not thinking, right?
38:58
Let's grow our people, because we are going to get off this
39:01
hamster wheel every month, every quarter being a slog. Let's grow
39:04
our people. It might not have a massive impact immediately, but
39:09
it will change the game 612, months time, but that's just too
39:13
far away, and we live to this target on a monthly, quarterly
39:17
basis. And they go for the quick fixes. I often see sales leaders
39:22
when they opt for growing the people, the people that they
39:25
tell me aren't good enough, they lack XYZ skills, or give them
39:31
more leads. They go for more leads because they think, well,
39:35
just quickly, there's more volume. And I always say, but
39:38
you're just giving people that ill equipped more things to muck
39:42
up with.
39:44
Yeah.
39:44
How often do you walk away from a deal because you just get a
39:47
feeling from the manager? This is a waste of time. They're the
39:50
problem.
39:50
Oh, yeah. And there's red flags that over the last 13 years,
39:53
I've started to spot straight away. Here's a big red flag, and
39:56
without shooting myself in the foot for business, when HR
39:58
contacts me about trading. Right? And the verse, All right,
40:01
what's made you first think that you need to invest in training?
40:04
I've been asked to find some training, right? This is a tick
40:08
box exercise, isn't it? So HR can say we've done training, and
40:12
it's short termism, and I get it. Amount of people that that
40:17
will get inbound, looking for training, right? Well, we don't,
40:20
we can't really take everybody out for half a day. Well, if
40:23
your business model can't survive when you invest in your
40:27
team for half a day, there's a much bigger challenge going on
40:30
here, isn't there? There's a much bigger problem going on
40:33
here, that if you can't take the team out for just half a day to
40:37
do long term investment and develop them, then we need to
40:40
dig a lot deeper on that. And yes, there is a cost to a
40:43
business on taking people out to train them, but all that says to
40:46
me is, you don't really believe in the power of the training.
40:49
Let's talk about training and coaching. First of all, I feel
40:52
like I have a very clear, distinct definition of the
40:55
difference, yeah, but I want to hear your definition of what
40:58
difference for you between training and coaching.
41:01
I've often tried to sum this up. I heard, I don't know who said
41:04
it, so if I'm stealing somebody's quote, I apologize.
41:06
It definitely wasn't me. Training is answering somebody's
41:09
questions. Coaching is questioning somebody's answers.
41:12
Nice. This is clear definition for me. Training is taking some
41:16
people that need some new skills and helping them develop those
41:19
skills and showing them for the first time, coaching is
41:21
questioning somebody so they come up with the answer
41:23
themselves. So it's more long term, it's embedded. It's making
41:29
them realize, actually, you can't do this already. It's just
41:32
getting out of them.
41:33
So let's imagine we are a sales manager. We've got that team,
41:37
and they resonate with the following. You know, every
41:40
month, every quarter. It just feels hard on what it should be.
41:44
It's a bit of a slog. We sometimes get there. We
41:47
sometimes don't. Sometimes we overachieve, but it hamster
41:51
wheel. We know that we want to change this. We need to grow the
41:54
team, their confidence and competence. What is the key to
42:00
successfully training and coaching a sales team.
42:04
Million dollar question. If I could answer it in a sentence,
42:07
I'll be sat on a yacht doing this interview right now. There
42:09
is no silver bullet is one, so let's strip that right back. You
42:14
mentioned two things there, competence and confidence. Yeah,
42:17
let's put confidence in the bin. Okay? It's a made up word.
42:21
There's no such thing as a confident person. We're just
42:24
more or less confident in different situations. So first
42:26
of all, I wouldn't even consider looking at the confidence piece.
42:30
Confidence comes with feeling comfortable knowing what you're
42:35
doing. Yeah, Confidence comes with being in a situation that
42:39
you're confident in. So right now we're in this fabulous
42:42
studio that you build in this great stuff. Say I was an
42:45
unconfident person. I didn't want to pick up the phone, I
42:49
didn't want to ask deeper questions. I didn't want to ask
42:52
for a next step, because I'm not confident. Suddenly, a tiger
42:57
walked in this studio now, and I was the only person to have seen
43:00
it, I wouldn't go, well, I won't mention that tiger, because I'm
43:05
not very confident. I'd suddenly go, there's a tiger. Yeah,
43:10
everybody out suddenly. I'd be really confident. Why the
43:12
Situation's changed. Don't worry about confidence. First, change
43:16
the situation, and the confidence comes. How do you
43:19
change the situation where you have to deal with the world as
43:22
it is, not the world as you'd like it to be. So first of all,
43:26
you've got to put to one side, what are your perceptions of
43:30
what's going on and what's actually going on? Because
43:33
there's no point dealing in perception. So point A What can
43:36
you actually observe, not feel or perceive or have an opinion
43:42
on, and that means one record. Are you listening to what's
43:46
actually being going on? Have you got your ear to the ground
43:49
on what's being said and done? Not the feedback on it. What's
43:52
actually being said and done? Are teams meetings being
43:55
recorded? Are you on the road with your team sitting, watching
43:58
what's going on? Are you having meetings about CRM and pipeline
44:01
and questioning, okay, you've put them at 80% tell me what's
44:04
going on, why they're 80% Oh, we got on really well. They had
44:07
nice biscuits, right? This is all perception. So rule one is
44:11
you've got to deal with the world as it is, not as you'd
44:14
like it to be, and that means you've got to either get the
44:17
tech or find the way to observe what's actually happening with
44:21
your team, all training and coaching has to start from that
44:25
point, or you're just going to end up in an echo chamber. I
44:28
love that. One of the questions I like to ask sales leaders when
44:31
they when they tell me the problems their sales team have,
44:34
I like to say and just to understand, do you think that to
44:37
be true, or do you know that to be true? And it's amazing. I
44:42
think that's true. So one of the challenges that I I hear from
44:45
sales leaders is, let's move on from they they've been promoted,
44:49
and they're great sales rep, and they lack knowing how to do it.
44:53
But actually it's the challenge of managing and training and
44:57
coaching salespeople. So the different personality. T's a
45:00
different needs, a different skills and competence gaps. You
45:03
know, lots of the persons might be similar in terms of level of
45:07
ego, etc, but it is just, how do I take let's just say the
45:11
average person's got 10 in their team, yeah, but it's two between
45:14
eight and 12, right? Yeah. How do they approach that? Lots of
45:19
people just opt for the blanket approach a man in a room, woman
45:23
in a room, on Zoom, whatever teaching the same thing doesn't
45:29
work because of the different needs the room, the different
45:32
egos, different personalities. How does a manager break that
45:36
down and create a successful training and coaching plan?
45:40
It's a great question, because you and we've said we said it
45:43
before, and I know there's lots of different iterations of it,
45:45
isn't it, but managing a sales team is, is trying to get cats
45:48
in a basket. Well, the baskets on fire, and you're in a bed of
45:52
nettles and just a swarm of wasps has just been released
45:55
into the office. But it just isn't, you know, we're just
45:58
dealing with people here. So how do you build it? Well, first of
46:01
all, first question I ask in most training situations, how do
46:06
I benchmark it? I'm doing observations, so I'll go right.
46:08
Point A is, this is what I've observed. Point B, what would a
46:12
world class sales team do? That's point B, the bit in the
46:17
middle is what that training and coaching program needs to be. So
46:21
this is what we've observed. And if you dotted everybody on a
46:24
line, there are different places on that line. But a is what's
46:28
been observed, that is actually happening now, and how different
46:32
is everybody point B, we have to agree, what would a world class
46:36
sales team look like? What would have to be different here to be
46:40
at the other end of the line, and then everybody, individually
46:43
has got a different way to get to be. So some might need really
46:47
intensive one to one coaching. Other people just need a nudge
46:50
here and there. Some people just need a wake up call. Here's a
46:53
bomb. You could probably half the size of your team. Some
46:57
people shouldn't be there. It's a really horrible thing for
46:59
sales leaders to hear, but most sales teams could get the same
47:03
results on about 50% of their account. How often
47:08
do you recommend that case by case basis? Isn't
47:10
it? But isn't it amazing? You see a lot of teams lose people
47:14
and oh well, we'll just infill for now, and nothing changes.
47:18
Look at lockdown. How many people got furloughed, and then
47:21
sales leaders went, Well, you've not actually been here for three
47:24
months, and your sales results haven't changed. What have you
47:28
been doing? You know, a lot of people got found out that way.
47:32
And I know that's a really harsh message, but it's, it's a fair
47:35
message. Really see what's going on. Talk
47:38
to you about the lone wolves, the sales reps that do things
47:43
their own way are often here. Managers describe those people
47:48
in the team, and they don't know what to do with them, right?
47:51
They say, don't think they respond well to training and
47:54
coaching. They're they're sort of hitting their number here and
47:58
there. But equally, they're vulnerable, because they could
48:00
just leave at any point and they rely on them, etc. What would
48:04
you say to a manager, how to get the best out of that person and
48:08
train and coach them and work with them?
48:10
Lone wolves. I love lone wolves. I love seeing what makes them
48:14
tick. It's usually a defense mechanism that's making a lone
48:17
wolf tick. They're terrified of being found out, or they've put
48:21
this ego up as a helmet against what could come in. They could
48:25
find other than all very good you have some lone wolves. And
48:28
we all know these people. You never see them. You never hear
48:30
them on the phone. You never know whether they're out meeting
48:32
on Zoom or whatever. They're just, what are you doing? Like,
48:36
why don't we fire this person? Every month they hit quota,
48:40
like, they always bring them. We don't know how they do it,
48:42
because some people just fly under the radar. How do you deal
48:45
with these people? Well, one realize that, and this is where
48:49
you've got to coach everybody in a team is sometimes your lone
48:53
wolves or your big hitters, or your people that are fine, or
48:55
whatever you scratch a millimeter beneath the surface,
48:58
they're an absolute mess. Quite often. I'm sure my sales coach
49:03
you get this is, oh, we just want to focus the coaching on
49:05
these people. These people are doing fine. So what would be the
49:09
expense to the business if you lost the people that are doing
49:11
fine? Oh, well, actually, one of them brings in 30% of the year's
49:14
revenue, right? Let's start with them, because if you lose them,
49:19
that's going to have a massive impact. And you go out for
49:21
coffee with them, and you have a chat, tell me a bit about this.
49:24
How's that working out? Blah, blah, and you find out the two
49:26
weeks off handing the noticing. But they never have that chat.
49:29
They never get looked at. They never get taken out for the
49:31
coffee. Why? Because they're always doing fine. They're a big
49:33
hitter. They love it. They're doing great. Be really careful
49:36
with them, because these are humans. They're going to be
49:38
fragile. So with your lone wolves, with your big hitters,
49:42
with whatever you've got, to treat them the same as everybody
49:44
else, just a good coach should be able to adapt their coaching
49:49
style for the person that's put in front
49:52
of them. Fascinating. I think that the challenge you see there
49:55
is the lack of confidence, yeah, to take that lone wolf on. But.
50:00
Particularly when, if they're a lone wolf and they're in the
50:02
business, it's because they're doing
50:04
well, there's some phraseology in there, isn't it? Take them
50:07
on, really. People see this is going to be adversarial. If you
50:11
only ask questions, you cannot be adversarial. It's only
50:15
adversarial when you tell people what to do or give them advice.
50:19
Nobody wants advice, do they Oh, if I was you, I do. Nobody wants
50:22
that. Put your head in the bin. But if you ask somebody a really
50:25
good question, it's not adversarial, you'll make them
50:28
think. And you know what, they won't respond at first anyway.
50:30
But you cannot not answer a question. You can't not answer a
50:34
question, who sang thriller? Don't even think of the answer.
50:38
King of Pop. Yeah. You can't not think What did you offer
50:40
breakfast? Don't even think of the answer. I didn't have any.
50:43
You can't not. Yeah. I was running a session the other
50:47
week, and we were talking about questioning, skills, coaching,
50:50
questioning and discovery questioning. So Ross, let's talk
50:53
about some questions that are nothing to do with sales. Try to
50:55
not answer this question. So, right. Okay, we got right.
50:58
Let's, let's do some slightly deeper questions. I'll ask you
51:01
them now. Mark, okay, you don't have to answer them. Okay, what
51:05
if you put on hold in your life that you shouldn't have done
51:09
losing weight? There we go. So it's not too deep a question,
51:13
yeah, what sort of person do you know you're capable of being
51:19
that you wouldn't want to be? Oh,
51:21
this is deep. What sort of person am I capable of being
51:24
that I know I wouldn't want to be. We can obviously edit out
51:26
the thinking time.
51:27
Well, no, I think the thinking time is great, because if you
51:30
don't need thinking time, it's not a very good question. So if
51:33
you think about when you're coaching somebody, if you're
51:35
asking questions that are at the front, yeah, have you got
51:39
glasses on? Are you wearing shoes? Have you had a good day,
51:40
how do you think you're doing? They're just answering straight
51:43
away, because you're not engaging them. They're not
51:44
making people think, yeah, if you ask a question, where you
51:47
have to go in your hard drive? So 90% of the human brain is
51:50
hard drive. Everything you've ever thought, smelled, touched,
51:53
experienced in your life is in there. Challenge is, we've got a
51:58
shit RAM. We can't access this stuff very easily. Then
52:02
randomly, you'll be in a department store or something,
52:05
and you'll smell something, and your brain goes, Oh, Christmas
52:07
Day, 2010 what? And smell can bring back of it. Everything's
52:11
in there, in the same part of the brain where all that stored
52:15
is where your emotions live. Now, if all decisions are
52:20
irrational. Which they are, all decisions are irrational. So
52:24
best definition I've ever heard of what a decision is. A
52:27
decision is a prediction of how you're going to feel. So think
52:33
of any decision you ever make. It's a prediction of how you're
52:37
going to feel. So for what sort of coffee would you like? Right?
52:40
You're predicting how you're going to feel when you're
52:42
drinking that coffee in the future, when you're having that
52:45
tell me about your ideal holiday, or what holiday should
52:47
we book? We'll book that one. Why? Because I've predicted how
52:49
I'll feel sat on that beach. Doing that, here's a menu.
52:52
You're predicting how you're going to feel when your food
52:54
arrives, when you eat it, when you taste it, when you feel
52:56
full. Everything is a prediction of how you're going to feel. So
52:58
it's an emotional decision. Only a good question can get to that
53:02
part of the brain where the emotions live. And it's the
53:05
emotion that will make a decision, and whether that
53:07
decision is to buy something as a salesperson or to change
53:11
something as a sales, person should so a good coach, a good
53:16
leader, doesn't need to be the best salesperson. They don't
53:19
need to have the answers. They need to be really good at
53:22
helping the person you're talking to come up with the
53:24
answers. So
53:26
was that almost like the point then when the first question
53:29
just gave you an answer the second question, I really
53:31
struggled. I was trying to think to you've had
53:33
to use your RAM to go back into the part of your brain where
53:35
emotions and memories live, yeah, and thoughts live now
53:38
sometimes, and this is the bit that I love. When you're
53:41
coaching people, especially, they can't find the answer in
53:44
there. It's in there, yeah, they grooving around. And they go, I
53:47
just don't you know what will happen. Three days later, up
53:49
comes the answer. If you ever listen to a song on the radio
53:52
and go, Ah, I loved this. Who was this by and you just can't
53:55
remember the band's name, and you carry on with you day, and
53:58
that's it. Three days later, you're having a shower or
54:01
something, and you go, Rem, where the hell's that come from?
54:04
The answer just pops into your head. Second you've been asked a
54:06
question that part of your brain just keeps working on it. So if
54:11
you've got your lone wolf, if you've got your big hitter who's
54:14
not sure what to do next, get better at asking them the
54:17
questions that will make them think, because they're the only
54:19
person that's going to change themselves. Can't convince
54:21
anybody of anything. Here you go. Mark, you've got a day and
54:26
you can have a day out. Okay, yeah, you can go wherever you
54:29
want for this day out, within budget and physics, yeah, yeah,
54:33
a favorite place, but it's entirely up to you. The weather
54:35
can be as great as you need it to be. And you can invite
54:39
anybody you want to come with you on this day out. However, at
54:44
the end of the day, wherever you are with the people that you've
54:47
gone with, as the sun's going down, it's going to be your last
54:50
day. You're going to die that evening. This is the last time
54:53
you're there with these people ever. Where'd you go? Who'd you
54:58
bring with you? I. And as the sun's going down, what do you
55:02
say to them?
55:05
That's it out. You actually want answers that
55:07
no, but you'll have one. I'm sorry, I feel emotional, but
55:10
you'll have an answer at some point it comes in. Why? Because
55:13
it's a question. That's the emotional part of the brain.
55:15
That's where we're going. Yeah. Now imagine if, in sales and in
55:18
sales coaching, you can help somebody feel what it would be
55:23
like to work with you. Feel what it would be like to have their
55:26
problem solved. Feel what it would be like in three months,
55:29
once this big, awful problem's gone away, well, they're now
55:33
coming up with that decision to buy or to change their sales
55:37
approach. Why? Because a decision is a prediction of how
55:41
you're going to feel. If you can't help somebody feel, you
55:45
can't help them predict how they're going to feel. There's
55:48
no decision there to be had, and all a great coach is doing is
55:52
help somebody make the decision to change. And a lone wolf can
55:56
make that decision to change, a top hitter can make that
55:59
decision to change, but until they make that decision you
56:02
mentioned before, Mark, I hope you don't mind saying that,
56:04
putting off losing weight, yeah, until you've made that decision,
56:09
it'll never change. I know people who are trying to quit
56:12
smoking, but they've not quite decided that they want to quit
56:15
smoking, yet they'll never quit smoking. So lone wolves, top
56:19
hitters, run the mill, whatever great coaching in salespeople is
56:24
questioning their answers, not answering the questions, because
56:27
that's where all the good stuff lies.
56:30
What? What an amazing bit of dialog you just given us there.
56:34
Yeah, incredible. I want to start taking back, because I'm
56:37
still just emotionally thinking about this day. It's so funny,
56:41
the day changed in my mind, because first I was thinking,
56:44
Oh, just go somewhere with a wife. Well, actually, my first
56:46
answer is, do so by myself. And I thought, oh, no, should
56:49
probably take the wife along. And then when I heard the MB, I
56:51
was like, well, I need my kids there, you know? And now we're
56:54
not doing anything for me and the wine. We're doing something
56:56
for the kids. You know what I mean? Like, what a great
56:58
question. Really sort of gave her on
57:00
detail, on sales questions. I don't want people listening to
57:02
this going in this meeting today. I know. So here's one
57:05
funny. I was doing some training the other year. Great group of
57:07
people around the table. We were just talking language skills and
57:12
everything about sales is the use of language, self
57:14
development is its use of language, getting success is
57:17
just the use of language. Selling anything is used
57:19
language. Customer Services, use of language. And there was a
57:22
fabulous girl in this training. She was really into it, you
57:25
know, she was, like, really soaking it all up and asking
57:28
questions, really, really like this girl. And we did this
57:30
questioning stuff around the table. And I asked this girl,
57:33
she was only in her early 20s, and I eyeballed her and just
57:37
said, what if you put on hold in your life that you just
57:40
shouldn't have done. And took her about three seconds, and
57:44
she's no word of like, she burst into tears and ran out the room,
57:48
and I was like, Oh, I've broken one of your team. I'm sorry. And
57:52
she went out, she quit, she actually quit her job. And I was
57:56
like, I'm not being funny. That is an extreme reaction, like,
57:59
I've never seen that before. So turns out, when we dug down a
58:03
little bit, she'd been in a relationship with a few years
58:06
with a guy, and then she met him, she was about to go and be
58:09
a dancer, and she put it all on hold for this relationship. And
58:13
like, four days before she happened to be asked that
58:16
question by me, this guy had finished her and left so where
58:21
I'd asked, What is a back of brain, deep, emotional question?
58:25
The answer wasn't back there. It was right. It was right at the
58:28
front. Now, if you ever get asked a deep make you think
58:32
question, and you can answer it like that, you should probably
58:35
do something about that. Yeah, if it's that forefront of Mary,
58:39
you know these really common questions like, What would you
58:41
regret most in life if you never did anything about it? If you
58:44
can just go, I've just got to do this really quickly. If it's
58:48
that near the surface, go and do something about it that's
58:51
clearly really important to you. So yeah, learn really, really
58:56
cool questions.
58:57
Let's, let's start to wrap the conversation, Chris, because I
59:02
feel like I could spend another couple of hours with you, and we
59:05
will, we just won't record and edit and we'll just go the pub
59:08
and do it. What's the most common flaw you see in sales
59:12
managers using the
59:13
myth that they haven't got time to look after their team,
59:17
because everything else should be secondary.
59:19
What's the one thing you've seen sales professionals add to their
59:25
game that takes them to the next level tech
59:29
that helps them get rid of admin? Got an
59:32
example for us, a
59:35
lot of companies now using some advanced AI tools. We've been
59:38
speaking to companies about it to do so many layers of your
59:42
sales admin and so much of your CRM edition that they're
59:46
spending more time having conversations. Everything that
59:49
isn't having a conversation isn't a sales activity. I mean,
59:52
we know these stats have come out. What is it from sales loft,
59:55
32% of a salesperson's time is actually spent selling well,
59:59
like. You're a race driver, I want you racing the car. If
1:00:02
you're a mechanic, I want you in my engine, doing stuff. If
1:00:05
you're my salesperson, I wouldn't have in a conversation.
1:00:07
Biggest thing you can do as a sales manager is take everything
1:00:10
off your sales team that isn't sales activity.
1:00:13
When you said tech, tech, I was expecting you say otter. What
1:00:19
piece of advice would you give to someone looking to step up
1:00:21
into their first leadership
1:00:23
role. Oh, ask yourself, why you want to do it? Do you really
1:00:28
want to be a leader? What's your moment? Is it because you see it
1:00:32
as you get the glory and the honor? Because I'm now a leader,
1:00:36
it's a dreadful reason to do it. You're probably going to take a
1:00:39
pay cut, and it's no longer about you, you know, just really
1:00:44
look into it first, because it can be a poison chalice. And
1:00:47
then last question, this is specifically for you. Okay, I've
1:00:50
been told that you love LinkedIn. Posts about bringing
1:00:53
the value, leaving the value. Tell us about that.
1:00:56
Okay, so I think what you get in that as a whole is there's a lot
1:00:59
of buzzword bingo suddenly on LinkedIn isn't there. And we
1:01:03
found this out when we did clubhouse. If in doubt, just say
1:01:06
value. And it sounds like I've got an answer to this, yeah. And
1:01:09
I think we really need to stop this crap. Yeah. We need to
1:01:12
drill down on value, lead with value, increase the value. Just
1:01:15
bring value. And when you go, Oh, give me an example of what
1:01:18
you mean, it's just buzzword bingo. They can't, yeah, and I
1:01:23
kind of get where it's coming from, but let's just fancy talk.
1:01:28
Doesn't you know what's other buzzword bingo that's been
1:01:31
happening recently values them a massive player for me at the
1:01:33
moment, and I pull people on it straight away. Give me an
1:01:36
example. Exactly what do you mean? And most people can't,
1:01:38
because they've just heard somebody else say it. Ah,
1:01:41
there's a phrase at the moment for when you're going in as a
1:01:43
sales director, but you're not really there. You like
1:01:46
parachuted in. Well, parachute in is another one. Fractional,
1:01:50
fractional. Suddenly, everything's fractional, and
1:01:53
it's just trends, isn't it? And I'm all right with that, but I'm
1:01:55
a bit of a curmudgeon old git Now,
1:01:58
Chris, genuinely, really, really enjoy this episode. There's been
1:02:02
moments where you've shared insightful stories, funny
1:02:06
stories. There's moments where you've really made me think and
1:02:09
feel a little bit emotional with some of the questions you've
1:02:12
asked me, like you've taken me back to when I was in school,
1:02:14
absolutely terrified of Mr. Brace, of walking around the
1:02:18
classroom. You made me think about how to spend my last down
1:02:21
Earth. There's so much more I know we could get from our time
1:02:25
together, but let's bring it to a close. We can always do
1:02:29
another episode. How can people find more of you and your stuff?
1:02:36
I'm all
1:02:38
over LinkedIn. You can't miss me on there. Look for Chris Dawson
1:02:40
on LinkedIn. Go and find the sales Dojo podcast that's on
1:02:44
Apple, Spotify, Amazon. Everywhere you go, go and look
1:02:46
for sixth door, which is the worst business name ever,
1:02:49
because nobody, everybody, how, what? What is it? Floor, sixth.
1:02:52
How do we spell that? Just Google. Sales Training,
1:02:54
Liverpool. Sales Training, UK. Sales Training, Northwest.
1:02:57
You'll see me pop up if they want to chat. You know what?
1:03:00
Phone me up. Nobody phones you up anymore. Do they should do
1:03:02
and welcome to have a chat with anyone. It's been great having a
1:03:05
chat with yourself.
1:03:06
Matt, love that. Thanks, Chris, thanks coming up. Cheers,
1:03:08
man. You.