Latest / Church Staff Book Club / Embrace Endings
Transcript
- Jonathan Malm: Just because you need to end something doesn't mean something's actually going poorly. Hello, welcome back to the Church Staff Book Club. My name is Jonathan Maul. And I'm Jason Young. We are finishing up the last chapter of our book for this season, The Emotionally Healthy Leader. It's been a phenomenal book. I really enjoyed this chapter. But so far, we've just been talking about how to become an emotionally healthy leader as an individual, as a leader, how to create systems in place at your ministry, church. organization, whatever it is that you're where you're working in, uh, to create patterns for health. Um, our hope with this podcast is that we would all just learn together and become better for it rather than learning alone, rather than learning in a silo, rather than only seeing maybe our unique perspective of what we're dealing with right now, but maybe seeing how other people can apply the book. So that's our hope with this, whether you're listening as a team, as a church staff, or just as an individual, we hope that you can get more from this, but this chapter, Jason. What was it about? If I could summarize it in like two sentences, which I'm not always the best at doing. You're like, say it shorter. You summarize it for us. Cause that's your, that's your fort. Okay. I would say most leaders know how to start, but very few know how to end things. So it's, it's always like, let's do new, but we don't end things or delete things. We're just good at adding things. Yeah. And the reality is. in ministry. mean, this is something I've been kind of navigating a lot lately is just the thought of people leaving, of someone getting fired, of a ministry having to shut down, know, pastor transitioning out, all of these things. We see all of these things as negative things. Any death in the organization, whether that's a, you know, an actual death or just the death of employment, a death of that person's no longer attending, we always see that as negative. And my pastor is actually really good about talking about this, that we generally see like demotions or negative things as bad. You know, like a subtraction is always bad to us. A deduction is always bad. But it's kind of, and this is what Peter says in this chapter, that deaths are necessary and actually a good thing. The seed has to die when it goes in the ground before it can sprout new life, right? Like we can't move on to, you know, the thing he quoted was every, every new beginning starts from some other beginnings end, right? ⁓ so how do we start seeing ends as a good thing? Part of it, oversimplifying it. Part of it is, I think we're, we're familiar with what is. because we're afraid of what's next. ⁓ And so maybe it's a little bit of an exploration of asking like just psychologically, emotionally, why are endings so hard? ⁓ Especially, and here's the thing, if you're listening, watching right now, there's probably something that you know should end. Could be a program or a recurring meeting or I mean, something, right? But I think endings feel like a loss even when they're right. And so we, we hang on to what was because we're afraid of maybe what's next and maybe there's an emotional tie. So I think your question to explore is, know, what makes letting go of something, whatever it is, small or big, so emotionally difficult. Cause I think that sometimes is, is our hang up the emotional side more than anything. know? Yeah. I think there's a, there's a few reasons. think partially we feel like it's a failure. You know, I think about if I start something and two years down the road, I'm like, that needs to end. We don't see the two years of value that it provided. just see the fact that, we're, we're, backpedaling. We, that thing was ultimately a failure that, that risk that I took failed. that's, so there's that kind of like. you know, ego component to it a little bit. That's fair. Hopefully we wouldn't call it that. I think there's also the people component. We genuinely care about people in ministry and ending something means probably, you know, someone was getting value from it. You know, I really loved, you know, I really loved that ministry that only had five people going to it. And that was, that was a, that was a really important thing for me. Right. So that one person is going to feel like they're, you know, not getting the benefit from it anymore. Maybe the person who's leading it. Now we're hurting their feelings. We're rejecting them because they're no longer going to be leading that. So part of it, because we care about people, we don't want to end something that maybe is actually causing a drain for 20 people just for the sake of that one person, which I mean, there's, there's, there's virtue in that, right? Like there is virtue in making a decision that, you know, doesn't maybe advance the organization, but is loving to one person to a degree, right? Like, are you, are you hurting 20 other people by trying to save this one person, right? So there's that, there's that. And then I think there's also just the, there's just kind of this extreme thing of like, I feel like I'm a failure even if there's no reason. So I mean, I think about my wife, like she quit a job. I think was like, she was working at like CVS and she was going to go into physical therapy. And she's like, I don't want to quit physical, I don't want to quit CVS because I feel like it's a failure. Like she felt like quitting was a bad thing. And I'm like, there's like, You're not mad at anyone. There's no like, there's no negative reason for it, but it just felt like quitting is bad. Stopping is bad. ⁓ any, any of that is like, we've, we're trained, like you follow through, you, you, you do this, you know, you, never, you never stop me, never quit. So I that I think there's part of that too, where it's just like, we're, we're kind of trained to like change is bad. And sometimes it's a little bit of what you said. think sometimes we think, maybe we even believe, which shows up in actions by not. ending something or preserving health. When in reality, we could be simply delaying like pain, you know, or elongating it, if you will. And you said something just a second ago, I thought it was right on that if we choose not to end something, then eventually that thing, whatever it is, will drain you and will maybe get you in a spot where you're like, God, how did I ever get here? Well, maybe it's traced back to, you know, this particular thing. So, yeah. And it's, and it's hard because I think, you know, the drain is so subtle. You know, I think about, you know, we've talked about this instance before where my, my dad was the pastor. We hired a, ⁓ a Spanish church pastor and there was just, there was just this feeling of barnacles on the boat for the organization where it just felt like we were dragging. And was it okay? Were we still making forward momentum? Like forward progress? Yes, of course we were. And so the question was at what. point is the drag worth the pain of severing this thing, of ending this thing, right? Of ending this Spanish ministry that we were running that just needed to stop. But it was, you know, people were, people were being blessed by it, right? Like there were, there were people that were involved. We loved the pastor. We loved the person. We brought him in. We like, we, we loved him as a person. And there was a complicated thing of like, we were his sponsor. because we brought him from another country. We were a sponsor for him being in the country, right? So like, where are we now uprooting a whole family? So there was a lot to navigate. Like at what point is the pain of change worse than the pain of, what, sorry. At what moment is the pain of staying the same worth more than the pain of change, right? And like, that's a hard thing because the drag is so subtle. The detriment to the organization, the detriment to other people is so subtle. Whereas the end is so visible and so visual and so visceral. So it's hard to know like at what point do we need to make that change? And I think a lot of times we tend to fall on the extremely conservative side of it where we're like, let's not change, let's not do it. And we almost ignore it. come up with justifications. That's what Peter says. You come up with the thing that is going to make it okay to not make that change. So you say, well, we care about people or... change is bad or it's still doing good. whatever it is, we come up with our justification and that's where we started getting these unhealthy patterns of, of operating where we're like, you know, yeah, we're kind of diluting ourselves in a way. Yeah. And sometimes I wonder, and I love how he talks about like different types of endings, you know, which, which we could chat about, but it, makes me wonder. And I'm just thinking out loud here. Sometimes I wonder if we don't. in things because it requires more of an emotional part of us, but we're willing to start things because it only requires more mental part of us, right? Yeah. Not that doesn't require emotional, but there's maybe like an off balance and like this one requires just something different. I think what you said is really, really important that on the ending side, if we have any pastoral heart, again, regardless of your role in the church, on staff. If we have any caring part of our heart, we realize that this decision is going to impact someone or a group of people. And therefore, maybe we care about them or maybe we care about how we look to them. so we just keep adding. And if you're listening, watching right now and you're wondering like, man, how do I navigate all this stuff? I've just got a lot to do. Maybe it's maybe your great example of just this addition. And you've just added up so many things and maybe it's not about starting something new, but maybe it's about stopping something. You know, work with a lot of churches, but especially in the business world, a lot of clients will do this like start, stop, continue, right? What do we need to start doing? What do we need to stop doing? What do we need to continue doing? And it, it's all, I can almost put a bet on it that the smallest category is to stop. category. And so it's not just church world, right? It happens in business world too. ⁓ But the motive is often a little bit different. And so if you're listening, watching right now and you're like, you know, maybe it's, maybe I said tool that you could use. What do we need to start doing? Which is going to be like your first go-to. Yeah. What do we need to stop? Yeah. Yeah. Fun stuff. And then the continue, cause it's like, what do we do well? Right? So start, it's exciting. Continue. What do we do well? Stop. Here's a parenthetical note. Just because you need to end something doesn't mean something's actually going poorly. It just may be ill-timed. It just may mean you don't have the right people anymore. So it doesn't even necessarily mean, and you said this earlier, Jonathan, ending is not like bad or failure or you look bad. Like to preserve the health of the organization, the church, the team, the staff, leadership requires courage. And I think, you know, the types of endings that Casero talks about can be helpful because if we can categorize these, maybe we can know what to do with these, right? There's an old adage that's, if you can name it, you can tame it. So if I can name whatever it is that's in front of me, I can tame this part of me what I'm supposed to do, right? If I can name it, then I can clearly identify what I need. to do whatever it is. And so, but it's hard. So if you're struggling right now, could be related to a person, a staffer, volunteer, or simply a meeting or a particular ministry, like Jonathan talked about, like the Spanish ministry, Spanish church. These are big decisions and as a leader, these weigh heavily on you. So we hope today is an encouragement that one, what you're navigating is normal and what you're navigating is hard, but also, What you're navigating can actually, if you'll just stay in it long enough, you can actually find clarity to make the best decision for the team and your church. Yeah. One of the exercises that I really like to do, and I find this helps me, it helps me feel, maybe it's like a mental gymnastics, but it helps me feel like I'm not ending something. It helps me really identify what I do need to end though, is I imagine If I were starting this organization today, I do this with Sunday social regularly because Sunday social is a social media company. We serve people with social media and social media has changed drastically in the last 10 years, like every month it changes. Right. And so I talked to my team and I say, what would we create if we were starting Sunday social today versus the fact that we started it nine, nine years ago or eight years ago. forget what it is, but the idea is, okay. So. What would it even look like? So it's not a matter of what do we need to end? What do we need to start? What do we need to continue? It's like, what would we build? And some of those pieces will be similar to what we've already built. Some of them will not be remotely similar to what we've built. And so that's where you have, you, kind of have that built in start, continue, and then anything that's not in that start and continue. Maybe we need to end it, which is terrifying, right? Like, ⁓ and for us, you know, Sunday social for, for so much of what we've done, like our. our content library, we create graphics for churches to use, right? That has been our core product. Like that has been the big thing that we have to sell. And now we're like, okay, but what we would have probably created now is more of a software element, right? So it's, it's, it's, it, it feels like we're having to like potentially chop off the arm of the biggest thing that we've offered, the best value that we've offered. But because the landscape has changed, we need to do that. And it's, and it's hard, like even, even with that mental gymnastics, with that mental exercise. that we go through, it's scary because we know that there's obviously some customers who still want that part, right? We're not getting rid of the graphics library if you're, if you're watching, but like it, it helps us know like, okay, maybe that's not our core value that we provide as a company anymore. Maybe it's this. ⁓ and that's really helped us stop some things. You know, we've, we've had some people, you know, say, Hey, I wish you would do this. We're like, we're not going to do that because, this is where the value of the company is now. And it's, it's tough, but yeah. Maybe that's something that could hopefully help, you know, as a tool is like, you know, what if we were building this church today? What would this look like? What if I was building this ministry today? What would it look like? And, you know, it doesn't mean that you need to sever that limb immediately. It might mean, okay, we need to work toward it. Take small steps to downsize that part of our company or whatever, downsize that thing that is, is, is needing to go away. One of the things that I also love though, and Peter Scazzero has been really good about this in the book in general, is the idea that Ending can be part of our spiritual formation. Yeah, again ending is bad We think like God, you know expand more expand my territory bless me indeed, right? Like the you know, the we love prayer of Jbez We don't love we don't love the times where like God God has removed stuff, right? We don't like the pruning ⁓ but the idea that pruning Deaths in our life can actually be part of our spiritual formation. And if we avoid that we don't get that spiritual formation, the grieving that happens whenever someone leads our church or the grieving that happens when we have to transition. It is a vital part of our formation. Do want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah, not to bring in another book, but to compliment and to affirm what you're saying. Henry Cloud wrote a book years ago called Necessary Endings. he's like, you he talks about like, there are these endings that are absolutely necessary. in life. And so when you think about the, your point, the spiritual formation, sometimes I wonder if endings just need a reframe. So we look at the same situation from a slightly different angle. And maybe endings could be an example of that. So when you think about, you know, think it's, because there are talks about these types of endings, right? Like roles, seasons of our lives, expectations, relationships, strategies. A lot of these, Jonathan, you've already referred to. What if reframing endings in the context of spiritual formation, what if we looked at them differently? For example, what if it's less about quitting and more about releasing? What if it's less about defeat and more about obedience? What if it's less about failure and more about completion? Right? So it's literally three examples of looking at the exact same thing. from a slightly different angle because one of the things, in fact, Jonathan, I were talking about this before we got on the podcast. If we're not careful, let me preface, I have been guilty of this. If we're not careful, we can professionalize our ministry roles and forget who called us, who's responsible for our initial calling, who... is trusting us to steward people, resources, time, et cetera, well, right? So, and it becomes this professional thing, right? Doesn't mean we don't do the role with excellence, but we professionalize it and we kind of, we're not careful to squeeze the Lord out. And so just thinking about, but every day is really about honoring Him and remaining attached to Him because I demonstrate, you know, characteristics, behaviors, beliefs, et cetera, to the person that I'm attached to, right? And so, so when you think about being attached to your point, bringing it back to formation, that he uses all these things, not so we can just create this world of professionalism and ministry, but that he can create you and me to look more like him through these, you know, moments where ending is a part that he uses as a way to... mold us to reflect his image more to the world in which we live. And that's hard for us to embrace. It's been hard for me to embrace in seasons because it's like, I don't want that. You know, I don't want that. But I have to remember that in these endings, I can look at the same thing, not as a failure, not as quitting, ⁓ not as defeat, but I can look at them as releasing or obedience or as completion. Right? You gave this example. What if that ministry is done or it's complete for what he wanted and holding on to it is actually going to make it decrease when he said, hey, we're done with that. You've completed what I asked you to do. And now it's time to move forward. Right? And so, but it's hard. So for me, a lot of times when it comes to endings, especially in the context, which you just said of formation, spiritual formation, it's What if I could look at the same thing, slightly different angle, in essence, I'm reframing my perspective. It's hard though. So, I mean, I, you know, my, my thought is, and we talked about this at beginning of podcast, you know, every new beginning starts from some other beginnings end, But the picture that I have is that the thing that is currently going is a boat. It's sturdy, it's stable, it's tangible, it's concrete, it is ⁓ easily discernible. Whereas. Whatever is next, the boat has to die for whatever is next and whatever is next is typically a storm. We don't know, we don't know the shape of it. It's changing. It's, it's, it's scary. It is, you know, Jesus is calling us out to die to the boat, to let the boat die and let the waves become our new thing. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what we're stepping into. The current thing is concrete. We know what it is. The next thing we don't know what we're stepping into when that thing dies. But that is where we're talking about spiritual information. It is an act of faith to trust that, okay, God is telling me to kill this. God is telling me to let this die. God is telling me to release this, like you said, and now step into this wave, into this storm. But that's where God is forming us to trust Him. And I think so often whenever we don't let things die, it's because it stays within our frame of reference. It doesn't require any faith for things to keep living, ⁓ which is wild. I think another thing though that is kind of scary and it's a thought I had when I was reading, because he's talking about, you know, letting someone go, firing someone, ⁓ you know, saying you're no longer going to be leading this organization or we're going to be moving into a different thing. And part of that, I think part of the reason that that feels so uncaring to us is because we are not doing the work ahead of time to love the person. I think one of those like, You know, if I let someone go, but I've been showing them enough love on the front end, that is actually a good thing for them. Meaning, because I've already shown that my heart is for them. I've already shown that I'm on their side. I've already shown that I've sacrificed for them. So whenever I'd make that decision, they're still not going to like it. No one's going to like being let go. No one's going to be like being moved, right? But when we love on the front end, we let someone go, they don't understand it, but then we continue that love through the back end, it can actually be a good thing for them. I think about, ⁓ you know, I was, I was let go from a company and, ⁓ you know, really wonderful situation where, know, the, the, the, boss and the person that was kind of like my, second in command were talking to me and like, they were so gracious. They, they, really took care of me in the ending of it. But then what I loved is three months later, they called me back and said, Hey, would you be willing to meet? Like, did we do something wrong? Is there like, is there some beef that we need to talk through? Is there something like the love was on the back end of it? And. So, you know, I could have felt rejected for that three months. I didn't. feel like I, you know, they did a really good job in the front end. But even if I had felt rejected for those three months, they still continued the love past. It was the end was not the end of the relationship. Right. And I think that's so often we assume that like, they're going to be mad at us. And so it's over, but we don't put in the work afterwards to say like, no, we can still, we can still show love, even if they don't reciprocate the love, even if they don't feel like they want the love, we can still invest them after the fact. And I think that's so often maybe the missing piece, you when you talk about volunteer who leaves our organization, are you still in their life when they let, once they've left your team? I think a lot of times we aren't because we're so, we're so survival oriented partially because we keep adding things and we don't let things die. Yeah. know, ending things, we could go in a million different directions, but staying in the, in the current that you're in as far as people, you know, which maybe has some of the greatest emotional weight. And people could be... ministry for sure. It's the scariest thing. Yeah, it is. Letting maybe a volunteer go. I was on a recent video meeting with some churches and they were like, yeah, we just can't let any volunteers go. like, who told you that? Because these volunteers were really thwarting so much or staff person letting the person go or... Maybe you're listening right now and you're thinking, you haven't said this to anybody, but maybe somebody close to you, a friend or a spouse or, you know, but you're thinking about like, I don't know how to end my role well. And so I just keep, you know, I just keep hanging on. And when I think about these situations, I think whether you're allowing someone to stay past the season or you're staying past your season, you can actually do more harm in those situations. And so I think about this, that unfinished endings, if we're not careful, can create unnecessary tension. Right? And I think, you know, it's not just the church world, think business world, nonprofit world, like a lot of places do this. And I love what you said. When we're talking about people, nobody should be surprised when there's a really difficult conversation that has to be had because back up, we should have been having a number of conversations along the way. That's a demonstration of loving the person, you know, before, through, and on the back end. And you're right. Sometimes we don't do these things well. I read a lot of things that, you know, when a church staff person leaves a church staff, it's not good. I've had that experience, you know, twice. It was unnecessary. And it's like, we got enough from you. you know, and when, you know, you resigned or fired or whatever it is, you know, whatever it looks like, and then they just next, you know, and you become this disposable item. And the church should be different. We should be a place. And I remember working for a senior pastor for an organization for seven years. And the one thing the senior pastor always said, I want this to be the best, some of you are going like this word, the best job you've ever had and you will ever have. But when you have that vision for people that are joining your church or organization, you have to do things differently in order to build that. And that means you need to like stop doing some things and all of that. All of that to say, if somebody's on your staff or if there's a volunteer, it shouldn't be sudden and surprise hard conversation, unless something like major happens at, I don't know where, that's different. But if there's just been ongoing, man, start earlier having these conversations, coaching them, asking them, building the relationship, make deposits, because at some point you're going to have to make a withdrawal. And if you haven't made deposits into that relational account, then you don't really have anything to pull from. And that really does create more of a devastating impact when it comes to an ending related to people. One of the things my pastor regularly references, which I love, is he says, you know, it's a verse, no one sets out to build a house without calculating the cost. And so you need to go in with eyes open. But I would say one of the costs that we fail to ⁓ acknowledge is that there will be an end. And when we think through, ⁓ what would an end look like in this? I think about this regularly whenever I get into contracts with people. You know, I, was just negotiating with someone really recently about like, okay, well, like, you know, they had an NDA for six months afterwards or not an NDA, a non-compete clause for six months as a, as like a sponsor, right? I'm like, I can't do that because if we sever the relationship, I'm to need to find someone that's a competitor of yours to, to know. like, so I was having to basically. negotiate the end of our relationship. But it was, it was important because I realized there is always an end to this stuff. And I did it in a way that was loving and kind, you know, not like, you know, I'm just trying to show you my perspective. I don't want to do that. I'm like planning to, but there is this reality of like you plan, you know, good fences, make good neighbors, good contracts, make good partners. When you plan for the end, you plan the way out. That's part of it. But I would also say that. A lot of us don't plan off-boarding. Like what is the end look? You you think about, you you build a house, you spend all this time like planning the architecture, planning the plans, planning the rooms. And then a lot of times for a lot of us, when we think about demolition, you just think about, well, bring in the wrecking ball and just destroy it, right? But there has to be intentionality with that. Otherwise you cause a lot of damage. You know, if you're setting explosive, it needs to implode on itself. can't... fall onto another building. And I think a lot of times we just kind of, okay, the end is this, the beginning, spend a lot of time planning the beginning, but we don't spend any time planning the end or planning how long that will take. Or yes, the person is no longer on staff, but what's our relationship with this person going to be for the next six months? When I left to church, the same pastor I'm always talking about, he said, and he'd said this kind of cynically, but he's like, I'm like, I'm not leaving because there's anything wrong. Like I'm not, I'm back at his church, by the way. But he's like, I'm not leaving because there's anything wrong. I'm not mad at anyone. And he said, we'll see in six months. In six months is whenever he'll, you'll see like, am I still talking good about my old church? Am I saying all the grievances now that I doubt that I was upset about? Like it's in this six month process to a year process that we really see how an ending happened. It's not the moment it happens. It's long-term. And I think a lot of times we just failed to plan that. Let me ask you this. Do you think, you know, somebody's listening right now, somebody's watching and they're like, okay, guys, I know there is something or there are things that need to end. That's not the hard part. The hard part is how, right? And so, and again, I know. And it's largely stuff we can't control when people are involved. can't control how the ending will go when someone else is getting, being ended, you know? Yeah. So maybe there is a lot in that, I know I should, but I don't know how. And if I don't know how, then I don't do it. Right? And so it could be related to the front end. It could be related to, I actually know what's next, but it's the how to end, kind of the bridge from the front end to the back end. And I know it can be context specific, but if you were to maybe speaking in generalities, thinking about like how someone could end, what would you say to them? And I'm gonna give you a second to think and I'm gonna- No, I have my answer right now. I already have my answer. Yeah, go. I would say is be okay with messy. Meaning like, just acknowledge it's messy. Endings are always messy. They always hurt. They always feel uncomfortable. They never go as smoothly as you want. Approach it within humility. Be willing to say, my gosh, I messed that up. Like I did that part wrong and own it really quickly. Own that humility. And then just graciously. And again, I'm going to say embrace the awkward, know, especially if you're firing someone, when you see them around town, go up and hug them, even if they are stiff and they seem like totally like upset about it. But by you being willing to embrace the uncomfortable, you communicate more. than if you feel uncomfortable and you maybe do things based on your assumption about them, based on your assumptions about how something went. I think that's so much of what the hurt happens when someone leaves the church. We assume what the other person is feeling or thinking and we're not right. so then we act, we treat them as if we, as if that is true, what we think about them, and it just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So embrace the uncomfortable and embrace it with humility and just lather grace for yourself and for them. all over it. That's what I would say. Yeah, no, I think it's good. I think, you know, do your homework. Maybe if there's some people in your circle you trust, like have them check your thinking. Obviously, I know this is cliche, but pray for the Lord's clarity and discernment and timing and delivery and right. Things, these what seems small, really impactful, but have some people, you know, check your thinking and And then, and then do it. And I love what you said. I don't like sometimes messy. like, like clean, buttoned up, tight. And if it's messy, it feels undone and you know, life sometimes messy though. It is. is. Mine's more of an emotional thing. Yours is like, it's a factual thing. It is messy. so living. that, one thing Skazera talks about is when you end things, or things get ended with you or for you, you know, which it might be a whole other conversation. Sometimes you are potentially hurt or maybe you're not hurt, but you grieve these things. And so one thing we want to remind you as we wrap up and Jonathan will take us to the finish line is don't be afraid to grieve because really at the end of the day around change and grief is loss. Right? And there is a natural process and just like there's a natural process to grieve your loss, there's also a natural process to be excited about something new. And so don't bypass grieving something because honestly, it just probably means that you cared about what you did. You cared about the people that were in your circle of influence. So don't be afraid of that and don't tell yourself a story that in the ending, is where everything ends because on the other side of an ending, and I think we intellectually know this, but we don't emotionally believe it. That's right. There is a beginning on the other side of the ending. Yes. Yeah. That's so good. Speaking of ending, we're going to end this book. Nice. Loved it. Wonderful book. We'll be announcing next week which book we're going to be doing. ⁓ And obviously starting with chapter one, but we hope you found this season, these nine episodes helpful. If you haven't read the book, that's okay. I'd still encourage you to pick it up. But we just hope this has been a resource for you and we will see you next week. Be sure to subscribe. Be sure to find us on social media if you haven't already. We'd to talk to you, but we'll see you next week.