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Differently Wired | Embracing Discomfort in Community With Tracy Upham · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
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is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
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love others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations.
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Hey, it's Johan. Before we get into this interview, I just wanted to let you
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know that we've had some technical issues with this interview.
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The Internet was cutting out. So there might be parts of this
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interview that feel a little bit choppy, but the content was really
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good. So I encourage you just to look past that and listen to our
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guest's story. Now onto our conversation with Tracy.
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Welcome, fellow sojourners, to another curious episode of
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Journey with Care. I'm on with our co host Wendi
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Park. Hey, everyone. We are in the midst of our series differently wired in
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community, and we have another special guest on today. But before we
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get to that, I wanna remind you that we have another podcast called Journey
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with Prayer. You can find it now on your favorite podcast player
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or get early episodes on our website journey with care dot
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c a slash podcast. You can find it all there. I encourage you to
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subscribe. And, again, make sure you're sharing this series with friends,
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family, church members, people in your small groups. These are such
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important conversations that we believe will bless the body of
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Christ. Yeah. I've heard so many things, Johan, from people that have been
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listening and following along with our differently wired and community
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series that it's easy to share with people, having
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those conversations, hearing from people that have come through these experience,
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that are living in these experiences, and it's an easy way
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to generate conversations, healthy conversations in their
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communities, in their families, in their threads. I've
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been seeing that being shared, which is really lovely,
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and we just want to help people understand
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neurodiversities, disabilities, mental illness. This series
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isn't a clinical, place where we're diagnosing
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people, putting labels, but we're inviting people to share their stories. So
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for those of you who have been following, you will know that we've been talking
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about navigating neurodiversities and exceptionalities within
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the church and community. And how do we do that? How do we really care
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and create inclusivity and belonging for everyone? We've been
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talking about autism, bipolar, ADHD. There's so many
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things there that I know listeners have been
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blessed by, and we are not disappointing
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today because today in studio, we have Tracy
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Upham. She's actually one of our trainers, our trauma trainers on
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inner team coming from the Hamilton area. And so,
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Tracy, welcome to the podcast. Hi. Well, we love
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having our conversations with you, and I'm so excited to share your
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voice and your experience kids
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with
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kids with exceptionalities, living with kids, parenting,
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ministering to people with exceptionalities. Can you tell us a little bit
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about yourself and what ties you into this topic of
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differently wired in community? Sure. For the last about
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13 years, my husband and I have been foster parents. And
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the last 6 or 7 years of that,
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specifically have had kids placed in our home who have had
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significant challenges, intellectual disabilities, fetal
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alcohol spectrum disorder. We've done some relief for kiddos who have autism. And
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so just kind of as our journey has
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progressed, we have kind of
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unintentionally found ourselves in
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this place where we are often caring for kids who have special needs.
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Yeah. It's interesting. We often don't necessarily know what we don't know,
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and yet when we find ourselves in situations, we have to get curious.
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Right? When those those kids came into your life, you
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needed to educate yourself. They were educating you on the things
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you didn't know. You didn't find that in a parenting how to
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book, did you? Definitely not. Definitely not. And I can
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look back now and see the ways that
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I think God has both gifted and prepared
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Keith, my husband, and I for what happens in our
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house. But I don't know that I always felt
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that in the moment that those experiences were
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happening. But, yeah, I I mean, I think as a foster parent,
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even for our kiddos who come into our homes who don't
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necessarily have a diagnosed neurodiversity
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that you could, you know, put a label on, even
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just the experience of attachment disruption
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and and trauma, those already kind of create sort
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of like a a I mean, I kind of talk about how I think all
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kids who are part of the child welfare system probably fit into that
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special needs population because they do need to be
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parented in a different way. They do have experiences Right. That
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have possibly made it so that traditional parenting is not
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going to be effective or going to be as helpful.
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Specifically, the last couple of years, seeing how intellectual
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disabilities or executive functioning challenges in, you know, fetal alcohol
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spectrum or something like that mesh with that
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trauma experience or that attachment disruption can
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be really interesting and can create some
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real complexities. I find that sometimes
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the information that you're getting from a population of,
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you know, parents who are caring for a child who has
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autism, let's say, or Down syndrome or some sort of intellectual disability who
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they have raised since birth and there hasn't been any attachment difficulty.
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Sometimes that advice doesn't quite fit, but then also sometimes some of the
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trauma stuff doesn't quite fit either because not only are they
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experiencing trauma, but they also then have these intellectual
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challenges or these executive functioning challenges that
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can make that part really tricky. And so we're always trying to kind of
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figure out, okay, what's the best way for us to meet these
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kids where they where they are, and who has
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God made them, and how can we look to him
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to kind of figure out, okay. God, how would you have us lead these kids?
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How would you have us love them? How would you have us care for them?
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What does it look like? What's the best thing for them? And that
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has not always been the same. And so there's been a lot of learning to
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to be flexible and a lot of learning to to be flexible and a lot
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of learning to to ask for wisdom. But I do think that we've also, throughout
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the last, you know, 13 years, I think that we have also picked up some
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skills and hopefully are a little bit better at what we do than we were,
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you know, 13 years ago. That's my hope by least. Well, you've said a lot
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of good things there, and and children are often the best
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educators Wendi we listen and we lean in. How do we connect?
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And you raised something interesting, not only the intellectual disabilities
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or or the challenges and the complexities, but the trauma piece,
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it does change the biology and the neurology of the brain. Right?
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And so then how do we work with those wirings if there's there's
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levels of healing that can be found? But I love that you
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bring your experience into our trauma care training,
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and helping people connect well with people that
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are differently wired based on trauma. When something
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triggers them, how do we deescalate the brain so you can have that
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connection? You've had a lot of experience. You also came in with experience
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from a ministry perspective. Right? Through a church ministry,
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pastoral staff role with children. Can you tell me a
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little bit how that has informed some of your perspective
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on neurodiversities, intellectual disabilities within the
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church setting. Yeah. I don't think there's a time in my
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life, at least prior to maybe 10 years old, that I
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haven't been involved in taking care of kids
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or working with kids or whatever. Like, that that's been a given
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from a very, very young age. But, yeah, through university, I moved to
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Hamilton because that's not where I'm from originally, and I worked, at
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the church that we still attend as their children family
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minister. And it is a church that is in kind of a higher
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needs area of the city. We had a lot of
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kiddos who just life was hard. There was a lot
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of of toxic stress, a lot of uncertainty. So
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this the church story that we are at, there is a school
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directly behind it. And so it was becoming really important to the congregation
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that they engage with this school, this, you know, 800
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plus kids, because this is not a small school, it's a very large school.
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How do we engage with this, you know, 800 plus group of kids?
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So very early on, one of the things that we saw was as we started
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to engage with kids, they would show up on Sunday morning,
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but they had no concept of what a Sunday morning church
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experience would look like. And so sometimes, they would bring families with
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them, but sometimes, they would just kind of show up. And so I think that
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our congregation had to kind of learn pretty quickly
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how to be welcoming to disruption,
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how to be okay with explaining to this child in the
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middle of the service, like why we were taking communion
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or why people are raising their hands while they're
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singing or all of these different pieces. And so, I
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mean, we did have a Sunday school program that they would go to for part
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of the time. But still today, our kids start
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their their Sunday with us in the service, and we worship together.
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And so that was kind of an introduction to our church
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to kind of be a little bit to be a little bit okay with
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being maybe uncomfortable with things not looking the way that
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maybe always had looked or people kind of thought that they they looked.
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And there were challenges with that for sure.
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But I look back now, well, almost 20 years
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ago, and I really think that
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those kids kind of broke us in, in a
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lot of ways to being a lot
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more comfortable with taking ourselves less
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seriously, not having this really, like, formalized idea of you need
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to be quiet, and you need to sit in this place, and don't speak. And
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I see that now because now our congregation has such
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an interesting population of
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adults who have, developmental disabilities, or we have a
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young man who has autism that worships
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with us, and they are beautiful. They are sometimes hilarious. You know,
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sometimes they'll make comments or they'll kind of
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shout something out in the middle of service, and it's normally
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fantastic. It's normally the thing that everybody is thinking and nobody wants to
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say. Yeah. And they have been such a blessing
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to us. Well, that is really neat to hear, Tracy,
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because not only have children impacted how you parent and
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interact with children, but it sounds like as your
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church welcomed and created space and colored outside the lines a
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bit in creating space for for children with
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exceptionalities and differences that it has
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taught the church. It has influenced the church in how
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you all operate together, how you function and create space for
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each other. What do you think have been some of
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those key things that have created that safety for children to be
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children, for adults with exceptionalities to
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to just be their whole selves with you. What are some of
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those things that have created that ability
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to be themselves within a a diverse
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congregation? I should say to start that our church is a
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pretty small group. So we're probably about 60
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people maybe on a Sunday morning, and I think that that
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matters in that there's kind of an
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expectation if you're around for
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more than a couple weeks, you are going to know
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several people. Right? Like, it's not the type of place that's huge, and
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so you can show up for a couple weeks without really meeting a lot of
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people. You're gonna meet someone very quickly within
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coming through the door. And if you're there for more than, you know, 1 or
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2 weeks, you're going to meet even more people. And so I think that that's
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part of it is just the the commitment to
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welcoming one another, to touching base with new faces. And because we're small,
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we can see those new faces very, very easily. Yeah. I think for
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a long time, our church has kind of represented
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our neighborhood in that there's a very
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diverse group of people already, so
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a very diverse group in terms of socioeconomic status for
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sure. And that has been decades that that has been the
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case. And so I I think that there's already this sense
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of people from different places that other than the
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church wouldn't really come together, and
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already kind of journeying together and being like, oh, you
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have something to bring to the table. And so I think as that
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has grown to include more recently
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kids and adults who have developmental disabilities or,
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you know, whatever kind of special needs. I think that that has laid
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a good foundation. We also have some really lovely
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parents, and, I mean, we do have some child like childcare
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providers, EAs, teachers who have a really good head on
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their shoulders around kids development, but
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also just, like, how important it is for kids to be able to
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be kids and for kids to be celebrated. And even some of
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our older members who aren't raising children
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anymore, but have this real
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commitment to our kids,
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especially, and wanting them to know Jesus, but
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wanting them to know Jesus in a way that works for them and not re
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like, recognizing that they're not necessarily going to just sit in one
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place quietly and, you know, receive.
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So it's not uncommon in our church to kind of see
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different kids dancing in the aisles or, you know,
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there are kids that are helping do actions for songs or singing songs.
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It's not uncommon for kids to kind of
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come and, like, go throughout even the first part of the
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service while they're together. And so that's kind of just
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created an environment of, okay, this is a place where I can bring my
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kids who might struggle with a sense of, oh, you need to sit
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still and you need to listen and you can't speak and you
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can't ever smile. I don't I don't know. That's probably a
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terrible example of what church looks like anywhere. But I think
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sometimes we get these ideas of, like, the
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perfect Christian kid is this, like, such a
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heavily behaviorist model. And and not only that, but the
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parents too, that we have this perfect image of how a
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good parent raises their children and you all sit still and be a
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Pinterest family down the pew. Right? Where those
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pressures come from, who knows? But I I like what you
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said, though. Like, I think that that rings true for all humanity.
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When I see somebody else bear their whole self in
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front of others and be accepted and welcomed and
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treated with love and dignity, I'm more likely
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to drop my mask and say, you know what? When you ask me
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how am I doing and I say I'm struggling right now, I'm gonna be more
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vulnerable, feel more safe to be my authentic self
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or to share, like, I like to do this quirky thing. You know?
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I believe that we might all come in with different exceptionalities
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or different circumstances. But when we see that emulated,
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when a person with Down syndrome is dancing in the front
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or somebody with FASD is is
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helping with the children, But when I see those things incorporated,
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then I think, well, maybe my children with these exceptionalities
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or myself with these types of conditions can also be
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welcome. And so we can create that belonging without
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all having cookie cutter same circumstances because we're all
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different. Right? Yeah. There's one woman specifically that I'm thinking
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about. I mean, I don't know if she has a specific diagnosis or whatever, but
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I know there's definitely some sort of, I don't know if it's, like,
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a mild intellectual disability or or what. And she will every
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week, she will offer you a mint, and she will ask you, like, how are
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you doing? And she she does. She wants a real answer,
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and she will immediately ask if she can pray for you.
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And then she will remind you of the things that are true about
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God. And so she will give you a hug, and she will tell you God
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loves you. God is with you. You need to trust him. Like,
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all of these things that sounds like potentially
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simple things because I make Christianity really
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complicated in my head. So, Tracy, how
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have these experiences with this woman that has
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a woman that has blessed you, with your children,
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the the people that you have been working with in your congregation in
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a pastoral role. But now as a congregation member coming with your
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family, how has the how have
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these experiences impacted your own faith and
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understanding of God? You you've mentioned that it simplified
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your theology in in some ways of of not making
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it so complicated. What other ways have you been
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impacted? Yeah. God has definitely used the
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example of both adults and kiddos who
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maybe have different, neurodiversities or
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special needs to teach me a lot about places
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where I was believing things that weren't true. Or even
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if I said out loud, oh, yeah. Like, I believe that God
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loves me and that God, isn't waiting for me to, like, have
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everything figured out. But the way that I was living was still very
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much a, oh, I need to have everything figured out. And so especially
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so we just recently, adopted 2 of the
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kiddos that we had been fostering. And so they lived with us for years,
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but they were just placed with us on adoption in March. And
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part of the last several years of
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just getting to know them and and love them, and especially as we kind
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of started to think about adoption and see them
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as part of our family, thinking about, okay, what does
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it look like to disciple these kiddos
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who, you know, don't necessarily always
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look like what comes to my mind maybe.
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And and I'm not saying that that's a good picture. I'm not saying that,
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yeah, I think that that is a poor picture that I have, and that's
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not not healthy. But, you know, my kiddos
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really struggle with impulse control. They really struggle with executive functioning. They
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struggle with emotional regulation. Mhmm. Sometimes when they get mad, the things that
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come out of their mouth are pretty ugly. Sometimes when I get mad, the things
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that come out of my mouth are pretty ugly, and that's not something that
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we normally talk about. And so having to sit and say,
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okay. God, if I believe that you
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made these kiddos, And, yeah, some things
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happened that were not in your original plan for the
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world, but I also have to believe that at this
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point in my kids' lives, this is how you've created
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them. And so what what does it mean for them to love and to
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follow you when they might struggle with all
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sorts of different behaviors as kiddos? But even as adults, like, looking for like, they're
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at risk for a lot of things that, you know,
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from your typical, like, Sunday school ideas are
20:14
not what a Christian adult looks like. And that
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was challenging for me. But I think that God has used that
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to strip away all of the sense of presenting this
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this religious self and just saying, like, it is it is not about that. Like,
20:30
it is about loving god. And and I see that in my
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kids. Even now, you know, they're 8 and they're 10. But, man, my 8 year
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old, she loves Jesus. And, yeah, like, there are
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things that she struggles with, and there's things where she'll say, oh,
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mommy, it's hard to follow Jesus. It
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sure is, girl. Amen. Amen. But, man,
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like, she she loves Jesus, and Yeah. And I can see
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it. And so I think that that has been such
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a gift, such a necessary work in me because God has used that
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stripping away to then say, okay, Trace. I'm not all that
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impressed or concerned. Like, I, you know, you've got all this stuff that you're trying
21:11
to prove and you're doing and whatever and, like, cool. Yeah. That's
21:14
not what it's about. And so would you let
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me love you? And would you, you know, take a breath for
21:22
a minute? Yeah. That has been the biggest
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gift. It has not been comfortable, but it has
21:29
been so good and such a shift
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in my understanding of Jesus. Well, I think that's so encouraging,
21:37
Tracy, because I think that will bring bring a lot of,
21:41
encouragement to other parents and other people, maybe
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even living with exceptionalities. And even
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when we love Jesus and your daughter
21:53
expressing her love for Jesus, but that doesn't take
21:56
away some of the intellectual disabilities
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or if there's FASD involved. There is changes within the
22:04
brain, things that have happened or things that are part of their brain
22:07
that doesn't take away those challenges.
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And I think there's something there that we need to to
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pay attention to in what you just said that though
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we struggle in this world, it doesn't take
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away from your daughter's value when
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impulse control is one of those things or outbursts or or
22:30
or different challenges that she's facing. She can love Jesus and
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still be challenged there physiologically,
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and god doesn't see her as less than because she
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can't sit still. He says, let the children come and don't
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hinder, and you have been navigating. You said it's not easy,
22:49
right, to not let those things hinder her from
22:52
loving Jesus and feeling welcomed and included. I think
22:56
there's there's a lot that we can learn in the church. And how have you
23:00
navigated discomfort? You could have chosen
23:04
not to raise these children. You could have chosen not to go forward with
23:07
permanency and adoption. You could have chosen to go to a
23:11
different church where it's neat and tidy and perfect, quote,
23:14
unquote. Why have you chosen that difficult path?
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And help us understand what navigating
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difficulty looks like to be faithful. Yeah. I think
23:25
it's been a a struggle for me because somewhere
23:29
along the line, I picked up an idea
23:33
that life should be relatively
23:37
easy, and that things that were supposed to happen
23:41
would, like, kind of happen, you know, naturally or without a
23:45
lot of of effort. And I I don't really know where that necessarily
23:49
comes from, but suffering and discomfort
23:53
have been the main places where Jesus has met me. And so
23:57
it kind of very quickly came to the point of like,
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well, this is uncomfortable, and I don't really like it.
24:04
But I also cannot argue that these are the places where Jesus is
24:08
showing up in my life. And, I mean, there have been times where I'm like,
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I don't wanna do this. I'm done. Like, I wanna cut myself
24:14
off completely from all things. But I
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also am so aware that that would be not what
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Jesus has for me at all. And so I think
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a lot of the last 5 years, especially, have been
24:28
learning again and again and again that
24:32
life is not supposed to be easy, and that just because something's hard
24:36
doesn't mean that it's bad. That often, the things that are
24:39
most important to God require
24:43
yeah. Like, intentionality, I guess I'll say, because that's the one that's doing
24:47
the work, but we need to be intentional. And so I think that
24:50
one of the things that, as a society, we're not necessarily great at is staying
24:54
in those places of uncomfort or discomfort and of suffering. So, I
24:58
mean, I think community has been a huge part of that. Like, we are very,
25:01
very blessed to have, other Christian
25:05
families around us who are living lives that look
25:09
different than what they anticipated they would. I think that
25:13
there has been a journey of having to grieve some of the
25:16
things that I thought life would look like. And in that
25:20
grief, God has allowed me to be a
25:24
little bit more comfortable Johan in in some of those places where
25:27
before I really wasn't. And I think just in the last
25:31
couple of years, in my own personal life, looking at some spiritual
25:35
disciplines that really set me in intentionally at looking at, okay,
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what is God doing? What has God done in the past? What has God done,
25:42
you know, last week, and how am I seeing him at work? I think
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that those things have allowed me to stay in the discomfort
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because there is just no denying that it is the
25:53
place which where Jesus is.
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Well and I can testify, Tracy, that I see Christ in
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you and you choosing discomfort, you choosing
26:04
to work across your own comfort lines
26:08
has made you into a better, more Jesus
26:12
like person. And now not only are you
26:16
being willing to be discomforted, you are being driven
26:19
to into places that often churches find
26:23
discomforting, and you are training up churches to enter into the
26:27
people's distress in a in honoring and dignifying way.
26:30
And I love that that not only God has been doing that in
26:34
you and making you a wonderful person. I love having coffee with you when
26:38
I Wendi I'm down in Ontario and just feeling
26:41
that from you. But you are now in introducing that
26:45
into churches, into camps, into ministries so that they
26:49
too can enter in with a few skills and tools that you have picked up
26:52
and our team has picked up along the way, and you are blessing
26:56
many other people. So, Tracy, I was wondering if you
26:59
could invite us, invite our listeners, invite
27:03
me into what that process could look like to enter into
27:07
discomfort. What can I be learning? Why should I do it?
27:10
Tell me a little bit more about what we can be learning
27:14
by being inclusive and embracing differences
27:18
and getting out of our comfort. Well, I think one of the lessons
27:22
that I kind of already, you know, alluded to was that Jesus
27:25
is in the hard places. And so, yeah,
27:29
I think being uncomfortable is often
27:33
a part of the package. And
27:37
so I think the church in North America
27:40
kind of has picked up these different ideas that I'm not sure
27:44
are actually kind of gospel truths.
27:48
They're kind of more cultural. But we we live in a world that
27:52
is so dressed about
27:55
independence, about personal success, about
27:59
doing everything and having everything and being
28:03
everything. And I think the lesson is
28:06
that we are called to be a community. We are not called to be
28:10
individuals doing our own things on our own strength. Like, that was never
28:14
the purpose. But whatever it is that you do,
28:18
do it. Do it to please God and do it, to bring
28:22
glory to him. And so I think that it gets us outside of kind of
28:26
our, like, North American culture of this is the way life is
28:29
supposed to look. So I think that that gives us an
28:33
opportunity to live differently and to to be
28:36
uncomfortable, for sure. Those are the places that I've met Jesus the most.
28:40
And so I think that is the thing for the church, to be transformed by
28:44
the Holy Spirit, to offer a different gospel to
28:48
our culture as well because, you know, I don't think that those
28:52
things are necessarily healthy for our culture all the time. And so what does
28:55
the church have to offer to the world around us? A
28:59
lot of what we have to offer are, are actually some of those lessons that
29:03
I've been learning from my kids and from the adults at church
29:06
who, you know, from the world's perspective, they don't really have anything
29:10
to offer. Like they're kind of they they've kind of been shoved into a place
29:11
of, well, they're receiving care from someone somewhere,
29:17
but they're not expected to bring anything to the table. And I would say that
29:21
the exact opposite is true. They bring so much to the table, and I've been
29:24
so blessed, and so challenged in
29:28
how I live out my own faith by their examples.
29:32
Yeah. That is so powerful, Tracy. Yeah. And don't
29:35
we all theologically, we should know this. But
29:39
are we practicing? Don't we all need each other and need
29:43
God To to learn from people who might
29:46
be considered church projects or people to be cared
29:50
for, but to be actually receiving lessons from
29:53
God through individuals who understand their
29:57
need for community, who want to contribute and be part of
30:01
it, not based on intellectuality or or all these things that
30:04
we might esteem in the world that kinda qualifies us in.
30:08
But that we are all made in the image of God. We are all needing
30:12
community, and God has value and
30:16
purpose and plans for each one of us lived out in
30:19
community. Tracy, this has been a wonderful conversation, and I'm so grateful that
30:23
you were able to share your experiences, how God has
30:27
been challenging you, and I I believe it's a challenge for each one of us.
30:31
Is there any last comment that you would like to to put out there,
30:35
before we conclude this episode? Yeah. I think I'd love to go in a
30:38
slightly different direction, but speak to
30:43
people who are parenting kiddos who have neurodiversities,
30:47
because sometimes that can be a really
30:51
challenging and a really lonely journey. And so I think I would
30:54
just want to encourage them to keep
30:58
looking for places where their family can be
31:02
celebrated, to know that their kiddos are, are made in
31:05
the image of God and to know that, man,
31:10
hard stuff is often the places where Jesus meets
31:13
us, that we can't do things on our own strength, but that
31:17
God gives us the Holy Spirit. And yeah, to
31:21
maybe be free to take off some of
31:24
the mental baggage of what our kids should be able to do or
31:28
what our kids should look like and to, to really
31:32
see if we can look for,
31:36
God, what is it that you are teaching me through these kids?
31:40
Or, you know, what gift have you given them
31:43
for the church or for our family or for
31:47
our community? Because I I know that that can be
31:51
a really hard road to to walk. That is so good. Thank
31:55
you so much, Tracy, for coming on. Encouragement for our listeners,
31:58
we've heard some great feedback on this series so far, and I encourage
32:02
you to share it with others. Share it in your churches. Share
32:06
it with your friends, small groups. These are important discussions
32:09
that we really believe are important for the church
32:13
to really rally around, and they make for great discussions with your friends and
32:17
family around the table. We still have some more interviews for you, so
32:21
keep following along with us. Thank you
32:24
for joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
32:28
inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living life
32:32
with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative of
32:36
Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and equipping
32:40
the whole church to journey well in community. You can visit their
32:43
website at careimpact. Ca, or visit journeywithcare. Ca to
32:47
get more information on weekly episodes, Journey With and
32:51
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32:55
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32:58
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33:02
Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these stories reach the community.
33:06
Together, we can explore ways to journey in a good way. And
33:09
always remember to stay curious.