Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E159: From Ouija Boards And Spells To Christ w/Nora Jensen

Transcript

E159: From Ouija Boards And Spells To Christ w/Nora Jensen · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
There was a sticker that said too many Christians, not enough
0:02
lions, but I bought the sticker and I put it on my wall.
0:05
When I tried to purge my New age paraphernalia.
0:08
It was in every nook and cranny of my house.
0:10
Certain pieces of jewelry I'd throw away multiple times
0:13
because it just kept coming back.
0:15
What do you mean it would keep coming back?
0:16
And I turned and I had a few people already turned toward me,
0:19
and they said, peace be with you.
0:21
And I just realized in that moment I had looked down on
0:24
them. My soul was bared open and Jesus
0:27
and I were just looking at it and I felt really be ashamed.
0:30
But then I also felt such love. I knew I was home.
0:37
Nora Jensen, welcome to the podcast.
0:39
Thank you. Thank you for having.
0:40
Me, thanks so much for coming in.
0:41
So I saw your story and I was fascinated by it and then very
0:44
inspired to see your outspokenness about form being
0:49
formerly Wiccan and now becoming Catholic.
0:52
That's quite a big jump and big difference.
0:55
So I'm excited to share. Have you Share your story with
0:57
the podcast? I know folks listening, many of
1:00
them are on their own faith journeys, or at least they're
1:02
very interested in the topic of faith.
1:04
And certainly with your experience with Wicca, I think
1:07
that also resonates with a lot of people who are looking at New
1:10
Age and its popularity today. So thank you for making the time
1:12
to do this, of course. All right, so let's start with
1:15
your background. Tell us a little bit about your
1:17
upbringing and your your childhood.
1:21
Well I grew up in Colorado in the beautiful mountains and the
1:26
most important thing was our tight knit family.
1:29
We didn't grow up with any religion.
1:32
If my parents talked about God, I don't really remember much
1:35
about it. I believed in God but believed
1:38
that he just made us and moved on if anything.
1:42
And there was more of an anti Christian viewpoint in my
1:46
family, I guess just kind of what they believe isn't true and
1:51
silly and things like that. And so I, I don't, I think they
1:54
must have had that already. And then it kind of got passed
1:57
on to my brother and I. So how did you first get exposed
2:00
to Wicca? Well my brother and I were
2:03
playing in our yard. Our yard was 1/2 acre a field
2:06
and we were running around and we stumbled upon a large stone
2:10
circle and we immediately thought Satanist must be out on
2:15
our yard coming at night and doing weird things and so we
2:18
thought we need to just destroy this circle.
2:20
So we kicked the stones and threw them as far as we could.
2:23
And then we went inside to tell my mom this amazing thing that
2:26
we did. And I remember her even at that
2:30
age, I was probably around 11. Her reaction was odd to me
2:34
because she didn't really react. She didn't seem surprised that
2:37
there was a circle. She didn't seem upset or happy
2:40
that we destroyed it. So but I didn't know what to
2:44
make of it. So I just went about the day.
2:46
And then later on, my dad called my brother and I into the
2:50
bedroom and sat down with us and my mom.
2:54
And he just said, what if I were to tell you that magic was real?
2:58
And we just looked at each other and rolled our eyes and thought,
3:01
dad's pulling another prank again.
3:03
He was a big trickster and and he said it's real and witches
3:09
and Wizards are real and your mom and I are Wiccans, which are
3:12
modern day witches and Wizards. And the more he talked about it,
3:17
he just had this magnetic sparkle in his eye and I was
3:19
totally drawn in and I thought, OK, I want to be Wiccan too by
3:24
the end of the conversation. And my brother just didn't seem
3:26
to care as much. So just to backtrack for a
3:29
moment, that stone circle that you found at 11 years old with
3:33
your brother, that you guys thought this must be Satanist,
3:36
You had this idea already that Satanism was a thing, that there
3:39
was such a thing as Satan and they would maybe do rock
3:42
circles. Where did you get that original
3:43
idea? I'm thinking probably from
3:45
media, OK, because my parents, if they wanted to watch a movie,
3:49
there was no restrictions. We could come and join them and
3:51
watch it too. It didn't matter what movie it
3:53
was. And there were some movies that
3:55
had those kinds of imagery in it, I think like, I think one of
3:59
them was Wishmaster or something.
4:01
So that idea was had been presented before, not as even
4:05
something positive, obviously, because we saw it as a negative,
4:08
but that's the only place I can think of.
4:09
So when? Your dad tells you with your
4:11
mother and your brother, and you're 11 years old, that
4:13
effectively he is a wizard. He's saying he's a wizard and
4:16
your mother is a witch. What was your reaction to that?
4:20
Well, I thought it was crazy at first, but then the more he kept
4:24
talking and I can't quite remember how he was explaining
4:27
it, but he was talking about how the magic that they do is
4:30
different than what is shown in TV or movies or things like
4:35
that. And so that's what intrigued me
4:37
was, OK, so this is different. What is it?
4:39
And he had said that it was him and my mom had built the circle
4:42
and where that they used it for magic.
4:45
And so then I wanted to learn what it was he was talking
4:48
about. Do you know how your parents got
4:50
involved in Wicca? I, one of my parents had a very
4:55
rough childhood. And when all of that came
4:59
rushing back at 1.1 of the things that the new age
5:04
promises, it's an empty promise, but it's, it's control that you
5:07
have control over your life, your reality, you can create
5:10
your own reality. So I suspect that it it was
5:14
maybe a way to come to terms with the negative things that
5:17
had happened in that in my parents life and a way for them
5:21
to after the fact feel like they had control over it.
5:25
What does it mean to be a Wiccan, witch or wizard?
5:32
Modern day Wicca is it was invented in the 50s by a man
5:35
named Gerald Gardner. And so it's, it's interesting
5:39
because there are no the beliefs of Wicca when when I was Wiccan,
5:43
I thought that I was practicing ancient pre Christian practices
5:47
that had been secretly passed down.
5:50
But there's just no evidence for that.
5:52
And so Gerald Gardner was a man from Britain and he claimed to
5:56
have found this coven who had these ancient secrets and that
5:59
they told them to him and then he wrote them in books.
6:02
So really it's it's very nature worship, Goddess worship for
6:07
Wicca, a lot of look trying to harness energy and doing spells
6:14
and things like that of that nature.
6:17
So to be but to be in one Wiccan can look totally different from
6:20
another because there is no one coherent set of beliefs for
6:24
Wicca. There's just different, almost
6:26
like sects or things like that. So is there a governing document
6:31
of any kind or a charter of some kind for Wicca, or is it more
6:36
kind of a set of loose, loosely held, you know, operational
6:39
beliefs and sort of maybe attitudes or specific actions
6:43
that people can take? The latter for sure.
6:45
I mean, you can believe in whatever gods you want, whatever
6:49
goddesses you want. I really was interested in the
6:52
Egyptian ones, but another person who could claim to be
6:55
Wiccan could say I don't believe in those at all.
6:57
So does the Wiccan person think that they are dealing with
7:01
anything demonic or satanic? No, that's what's interesting
7:04
about Wicca is we, we would say that we don't believe in the
7:08
devil because we believe that to give evil a name is to give it
7:11
power, which doesn't really make sense if it doesn't exist and it
7:14
doesn't matter, right? If you give something a name, it
7:16
just doesn't exist. But that was the main thing was
7:19
that in Wicca, we are not devil worshippers.
7:22
We don't do anything evil. That's all what you see in
7:25
movies. What were kind of activities
7:28
that your parents did? You mentioned the stone circle,
7:30
but did did you learn, you know, after this revelation about your
7:34
parents being, as they call themselves, a wizard and a
7:36
witch, did you learn what they did, what that actually entailed
7:39
for them? That's interesting too, because
7:42
we did not really even practice as a family.
7:45
So because I was interested in it, my parents bought me a book,
7:49
and it was a book that was geared toward teenagers.
7:51
It talked about what Wicca was and had a lot of spells in it
7:54
that were geared toward teenage angst things.
7:58
And so really I just became a what they call a solitary
8:01
practitioner, which is what a lot of Wiccans are.
8:04
It's not really as much of a group necessarily.
8:07
So did you ever do any of the spells or any of the Wicca Wicca
8:11
practices with your parents? Sometimes, occasionally the
8:15
things that I remember. Like there was one instance
8:18
where my mom came to me with an exercise where we were supposed
8:22
to look at a specific image. And I'm, I'm vague because I, I
8:25
don't want anyone who might have a curiosity in the occult to be
8:28
piqued and then by what I say, go look at it.
8:31
So it was a very specific image. And we were to do an exercise
8:36
where we could use the image to then close our eyes and go
8:40
through. It was like a door.
8:42
And she had told me that when you go through this door, you,
8:47
they're supposed to be a different plane of existence on
8:49
the other side and that you could explore, you could create
8:55
whatever you wanted, created your own reality again.
8:58
But when you, when we were done always to come back through the
9:01
door before I opened my eyes, because otherwise a part of you
9:04
could get left behind. And that's another point is
9:06
there's always a warning when it comes to the practices of Wicca
9:09
and the occult. And so we sat down together to
9:12
do this exercise and, and it was like 30 minutes with nothing
9:15
happening. And then finally I closed my
9:18
eyes and I went through the door and I found myself in this very
9:22
strange place. It was a a void really.
9:26
And all around me was like a billowing fog.
9:29
And it was red and black, but I could I couldn't really see
9:32
through it, but I could move through it.
9:34
So I started walking through it and all of a sudden everything
9:38
solidified around me. They became like boulders and I
9:40
couldn't go anywhere and it was very scary.
9:43
And so I tried to go back to get back through the door like she
9:46
said, but I literally just couldn't move at all.
9:49
And I, I just, my eyes flung open and she was standing over
9:52
me in a panic. And she said that I'd been
9:54
flailing in the chair and I was breathing heavily.
9:57
And I told her what happened. And she went back onto the
10:00
computer to read and said that some people had experienced what
10:04
I said, but they continue to walk through it.
10:05
And then they got to the other plane of existence and I just
10:08
said it. I couldn't.
10:09
It was like rocks. I couldn't go anywhere.
10:12
And then she asked, do you want to continue doing this?
10:14
And I said, no, absolutely not. So and then one time I did the
10:18
Ouija board with my dad and my brother and my mom were in
10:21
attendance and as well. And that was we didn't get very
10:24
far because it was just a very unsettling experience and and
10:28
then we never did it again. Tell me more about your
10:30
experience that scared you with the Ouija board.
10:32
Sure. So with the Ouija board, it's a
10:35
communication board to communicate with any, anything
10:39
on the other side. And there is a, a tool that you
10:43
have your hands on and it's supposed to move around the
10:47
board when something is communicating with you and it
10:50
spells out messages and things like that.
10:53
And so my dad had his fingers on it and I had my fingers on it.
10:58
And we just started asking if there was anything that wanted
11:01
to communicate with us, anything that was present, anyone that
11:04
was present and doing this for a few minutes.
11:06
And then all of a sudden the, the tool, it's called the
11:09
planchette, it jumped under our fingers.
11:12
And I, I mean, my dad was such a big trickster that I thought,
11:16
don't do that. Did you do that?
11:17
And he, he swore that he did not do that.
11:19
And so we kept going, kept asking.
11:22
And then it lurched again and, and he was freaked out too.
11:26
So at that point I just took my hands off and I said I don't
11:30
want to do this anymore, this is kind of scary.
11:32
And he agreed. So we didn't go any further with
11:34
it. We Heart Nutrition provides
11:36
wholesome supplements and vitamins and they have wholesome
11:39
values. Not only does We Heart Nutrition
11:41
use the highest quality research backed ingredients that are
11:44
always in the most bioavailable form, We Heart Nutrition is also
11:48
unapologetically pro-life. In fact, 10% of every sale of
11:52
their vitamins is given back to pregnancy care centers.
11:55
You may not know this, but many of the major multivitamin
11:57
companies are owned by corporations that donate
12:00
directly to Planned Parenthood. With We Heart Nutrition, it's
12:03
the opposite. It's not only a best in class
12:05
vitamin, but they're donating 10% of their proceeds back to
12:09
pro-life resource centers. We Heart Nutrition sells
12:12
vitamins for women at every age and stage of life, including
12:15
options for preconception, pregnancy, postpartum and
12:18
postmenopause. So go to weheartnutrition.com
12:21
today. Use the code Lila for 20% at
12:24
checkout Now when you place an order of $50 or more at We Heart
12:28
nutrition.com, you will receive a free signature Bamboo capsule
12:32
box. These boxes are adorable and
12:34
make taking your vitamins or traveling with them easy.
12:36
Check out weheartnutrition.com and use the code Lila at
12:39
checkout for 20% off. That's weheartnutrition.com.
12:43
We've had a lot of exorcist on the show and they have
12:46
specifically said the Ouija board is can be particularly an
12:50
opening to the demonic because when you just invite any old
12:54
spirit in like that, you know, if it's not an Angel, which is
12:58
serving God, it's a devil which is serving, you know, a demon
13:01
which is serving the devil. Do you think that your dad, I
13:04
mean, afterwards, was there any conversation about, you know,
13:07
maybe this part of Wicca is a little scary or did you talk
13:10
about it at all after that? I don't remember.
13:12
I mean, I think we, we would agree that there were parts of
13:15
Wicca that seemed a little off, but then we we just kind of
13:19
stayed away from that part. So I feel like we just really
13:22
snorkeled on the surface of Wicca.
13:24
We did not go too deep because anytime we tried it was scary
13:27
experiences. We have had exorcists on the
13:30
show who have said that the number there are two top ways
13:34
that people experience demonic oppression or possession.
13:38
And these are very serious things, obviously, that not
13:41
everyone experiences, not everyone who dabbles in the
13:43
occult will experience directly possession or oppression, But
13:46
certainly it can open the door to it, which is very scary.
13:49
And it should be scary because it, you know, to pretend like it
13:51
doesn't exist. I think is, is a hugely wrong
13:54
move for people to make. But what they say is what
13:56
they've said is that there are two main categories.
13:58
One of is new age practices that can be crystals with the Ouija
14:02
board that can be, you know, tarot cards going to see a, you
14:06
know, a sooth Sayer or you know, a fortune teller or it is sexual
14:11
sense. Basically perversion,
14:13
pornography, prostitution, like anything in that abuse, anything
14:18
in that world can also open the door doesn't always, but can
14:21
open the door to the demonic. So we don't want to give Satan
14:23
too much credit in terms of everything bad that may happen
14:26
to someone as Satan or everything bad that someone may
14:28
do or mistake that someone may make that suddenly there's
14:31
Satanic activity involved. That being said, I think it's
14:35
very important for people to know the dangers of of this.
14:39
So let's go next to you know, you're, you're, you're doing,
14:42
you call yourself a solo practitioner.
14:44
How did you then go from being a solo practitioner in Wicca to
14:49
now you're Catholic? Well, so I practiced Wicca all
14:54
through high school, through middle school and high school,
14:57
and then I went to college and when I got to college,
15:00
everything was just new. It was different.
15:01
I made new friends and my faith just took a back seat.
15:05
Plus the Wicca that I practiced was so grounded in the teenage
15:11
stuff that I learned about dealing with teenage stuff.
15:14
But here I am now, I'm getting close to 20 and I'm not really a
15:18
teenager anymore. And I didn't have the same
15:21
issues or experiences that I did when I was 11121415.
15:26
And so when after a couple years of college, I just started
15:32
feeling a hole, something was missing in my life.
15:36
And I had always thought it's best to just learn from other
15:40
people's bad experiences than do my own if I can.
15:44
And so I knew that sometimes when people are missing
15:46
something, they might go party or try drugs or sex or things
15:53
like that, and I didn't want to do those things.
15:54
And so I. Felt pretty.
15:56
Why, by the way, because it sounds like your average person,
16:00
a lot of them will dabble in, maybe not drugs, but they'll
16:02
dabble maybe in party life or maybe even hookup culture or
16:06
something in their early college years.
16:08
You know, that's kind of our culture today.
16:10
What was it that was the wall for you that you didn't want to
16:12
try those things? I think it was the way my
16:14
parents raised me really. I mean, they, even though they,
16:17
they were in the new age, they were really good parents.
16:20
And so I didn't want to do anything that would disappoint
16:25
them ever. And I also just watching other
16:28
people who had done those same things and how that turned out
16:31
for them, it didn't seem like a positive thing.
16:33
I didn't, I, I want to just, like I said, learn from their
16:36
experiences rather than make mistakes of my own if I could
16:39
avoid it. And so, yeah, so I, I felt like,
16:44
well, then this maybe this is God then that I'm missing.
16:47
And so I had taken some classes in college on Eastern philosophy
16:52
and religions, and I, it sounded a lot like New Age to me.
16:55
And so I just thought, I just don't think that that's where
16:57
God is definitely new Christianity.
17:00
He's not there. Whoever Jesus is has nothing to
17:03
do with God. So why did?
17:05
Why? Why?
17:05
Why not New Age and why not Christianity?
17:07
Sounds like you immediately discounted both of them.
17:09
I did. So one of the things in when at
17:13
least when I was growing up in the 90s and practicing with
17:16
there was an anti Christian bias underneath that practice.
17:21
The books that I read had it in it.
17:23
The places I visited had had it in there.
17:26
And so I just had an anti Christian mindset already.
17:30
So I I didn't. I was not interested.
17:32
Were there any other experiences that you had had with
17:34
Christianity or beliefs you had about Christianity in your teen
17:38
or early college years that made you have a a sense of distance
17:41
from Christianity? Sure there was 1.
17:45
I had a friend who her father was Catholic but I don't think
17:48
he was practicing. But because she never talked
17:51
about going to mass or anything like that and she we were
17:54
hanging out more and more and she started to become interested
17:57
in Wicca. When her father found out, he
18:00
got really upset and he forbade us from hanging out anymore.
18:04
And our friendship ended pretty much when that happened.
18:06
And I just remembered being pretty upset and thinking, you
18:10
know, I'm a nice person. And he, I've gone over to her
18:13
house, We've done sleepovers. She's been at mine.
18:15
Like, I don't understand what the problem is.
18:17
And so I just thought she had told me, well, he's Catholic and
18:21
he was raised Catholic. And so to me, it's like, Oh,
18:23
well, then Catholics are very mean and they're very
18:25
judgmental. How old were you?
18:28
That was in high school. That would have been probably
18:32
16. I'm sorry you had that
18:35
experience. Do you think it was because did
18:38
she did there? Was there any explanation?
18:39
Were they afraid of like the demonic?
18:41
Was that part of it or? I didn't get an explanation.
18:45
Yeah. And so you were also saying,
18:47
though, that as a college student, you were kind of
18:49
discounting Christianity, like, it's foolish, it doesn't make
18:51
sense. But you also felt that way about
18:53
New Age. I started to, yeah, because it
18:56
was tiresome. And I had practiced it for, I
19:01
mean, what, maybe eight years or so.
19:04
And I never wanted to delve too deep into it because of the
19:08
experience I had with my mom and the Ouija board.
19:10
But also, I had looked through some of their books.
19:13
Some were written by Gerald Gardner, who I'd mentioned
19:15
earlier, but they were like the more adult books on Wicca, and
19:18
they were really dry. And they were just, it did not
19:22
resonate with me. And so I knew that that wasn't
19:25
the answer to go buy those books I had already looked at as a
19:29
teenager. So when you're on this journey
19:31
now to kind of discover a faith or a belief system, as a college
19:35
student, you discount Wicca, you discount Christianity.
19:39
Where did you land? What happened next?
19:41
Back into Wicca. OK.
19:43
So it was all I knew. So I thought if God isn't in
19:46
Christianity, if he's not in Eastern, I don't know anything
19:50
else. So I'm just going to, I guess
19:52
I'll just go back to Wicca. And so I pulled out my teen
19:56
witch book and dusted it off and I'm I started reading from the
19:59
beginning. And it was start started off
20:01
with a creation story. And I'm reading this creation
20:04
story and I'm thinking this doesn't make sense either.
20:07
Who who made this up? I feel like somebody made this
20:09
up. And how do we know that this is
20:11
how things were created? And so I kind of flipped through
20:15
the spells and like I said, it was teenage angst spells.
20:18
And so I thought, well, I don't have these issues anymore.
20:20
I'm 21 at this point. And so I thought maybe what I
20:24
need to do is I'll just put the books away.
20:28
I will contemplate who I think God is and I'll do the spells I
20:33
know, and just maybe I'll find him that way.
20:36
That's so that's what I did. And I had decided that whatever
20:39
it was, I needed to be 100% in because it's God.
20:43
It's got to be the most important thing in my life.
20:45
So I was going to live like it was.
20:47
So what happened next? Well then I met my husband now
20:52
and Dane. I met him at work and we ended
20:56
up going out on a date and we started talking about faith and
21:01
he asked me, I think I asked him first, what are you?
21:06
And, and he said, oh, I'm Catholic.
21:07
I'm Roman Catholic. And inside I'm just going, oh,
21:10
gross. I go, I have to find the one
21:12
Roman Catholic in Colorado Springs.
21:14
And but then he asked me what I was and I said, well, I'm, I'm
21:18
Wiccan, you know, I made sure I sat up tall and was really bold
21:21
and, and confident about it. And he just, he didn't run away.
21:25
He didn't make a face. He just kind of asked me a
21:28
little bit about, about it. And that was it.
21:30
And, and I thought, OK, well, here's a Catholic no less,
21:34
because I didn't know anything about Catholics, but I'd heard
21:36
enough that they were probably pretty bad.
21:39
And I said, well, here's a Catholic who's who's being
21:41
really nice and is accepting me. So maybe that softened my heart
21:46
a little bit, I think. Coffee is America's pro-life
21:49
coffee company on a mission to fund the pro-life movement. 1
21:52
cup of delicious coffee at a time.
21:54
Why are they called Seven Weeks Coffee?
21:56
Because at seven weeks the baby is the size of a coffee bean and
22:00
it's the same time that the heartbeat can be first clearly
22:03
detected on ultrasound. That's why Seven Weeks Coffee
22:06
donates 10% of every sale to support pregnancy resource
22:10
centers across the country. Seven Weeks Coffee has raised
22:13
over half of 1,000,000 dollars, $500,000 for these centers and
22:17
has helped save 5000 lives by providing free ultrasounds and
22:22
other resources to moms in need. Now let me tell you about the
22:25
delicious coffee. Seven Weeks Coffee is harvested
22:28
from the top 1 to 2% of beans in the world.
22:31
Their beans are mold free, pesticide free, shade grown and
22:34
low acid, and they're organically farmed. 7 Weeks
22:37
Coffee truly checks all the boxes.
22:39
And just in time for the holiday season, 7 Weeks Coffee is having
22:42
their biggest promotion yet. You can enjoy exclusive
22:45
discounts, free gifts with every order, and new limited edition
22:48
coffees. And exclusively for my
22:50
listeners, you can go to sevenweekscoffee.com and use the
22:53
code Lila for up to 25% off your order.
22:56
That's seven weeks coffee.com and use the code Lila for up to
22:59
25% off your first order. Then we continue dating and at
23:05
one point it was a few weeks into our relationship, we
23:09
started talking about faith again, but this time instead of
23:12
telling him what Wicca was, I started talking about what I
23:15
thought God was with all of the things I've been contemplating
23:18
and every single thing I said he would say, well, that's what the
23:20
Catholic Church teaches. That's what the Catholic Church
23:23
believes. And after like 5 or 6 times, I'm
23:25
going, really, this is insane. I should probably check out this
23:28
Catholic Church. And so I went home and I pulled
23:31
up a Wikipedia page and I think I got, and maybe not to the
23:36
first paragraph. I don't, I didn't get past the
23:37
first paragraph because it was like a different language.
23:40
I had no idea what a Trinity was, something about Jesus.
23:44
It was just so bizarre to me that I closed the page and said,
23:49
I don't know, this doesn't make sense to me right now.
23:52
And then I guess it's time. Fast forward, we he wanted me to
23:55
come out to Arizona and meet his family.
23:57
And so I was very nervous. I knew they were Catholic.
24:01
His dad had just come into the Catholic Church, so this was a
24:04
big deal and his. Dad had just come into the
24:08
Catholic Church, so there was a conversion in his family around
24:11
this time. Had he been?
24:13
Was it a reversion? He had been Catholic before not
24:15
practicing, or he had been a different religion.
24:17
I think he was atheist. Interesting.
24:19
Yeah. His whole life, I believe.
24:21
And so he then started looking into Catholicism.
24:26
And so when I met Dane, he was going through our CIA and then
24:29
his mom was a revert. She grew up Catholic, left for a
24:33
little bit, and then came back. And so they knew I was, I knew
24:38
that they knew that I was Wiccan.
24:40
And so I was just really nervous.
24:42
But when we got out to Arizona, we didn't talk about faith.
24:45
I met his mom. I had met his dad previously in
24:47
Colorado Springs, but there was just a, a peace and a joy in
24:53
their family that I had never experienced before.
24:55
And I knew it was from their faith.
24:56
It was very obvious, but they, they just accepted me.
24:59
They were very loving, didn't talk about faith at all, didn't
25:03
try to corner me. It was just a very beautiful
25:05
experience. And so that left me, I believe,
25:08
with my heart softening a little bit more after that.
25:11
So what? What happened next to help you
25:13
come into the Church? And how did that happen coming
25:15
into the Catholic? Church.
25:16
Yeah. So his mom, she's such.
25:19
She is my advocate. She told him, you if Nora's
25:22
interested in Catholicism, you should really bring her to the
25:24
Catholic Mass. And so he hadn't been going to
25:27
Mass either. So he did some research and he
25:30
thought maybe the best Mass to bring Nora is the cathedral in
25:34
Colorado Springs. And so we go down to the
25:36
cathedral. He asked me first, do you want
25:38
to go? And I said, yeah, I'd be
25:39
interested in going. So we went to the cathedral and
25:43
I don't remember everything about that Mass, but what I
25:47
remember is walking in, how happy everybody was.
25:50
And the ushers, who I didn't know that's what they were at
25:53
the time, but they were so welcoming.
25:55
I felt like they were looking at me and just welcoming not just
25:59
who here comes another person in the church, but me specifically.
26:02
And we got in and before we had gone there, Dane said just kneel
26:07
when I kneel and stand when I stand and do what I do.
26:10
And when it comes time to take the Eucharist, cross your your
26:14
hands because you're not Catholic and so.
26:16
But he did he was he going to receive the Eucharist?
26:19
No, no, his his mom is very. So he knew to cross, yes,
26:23
because he hadn't been practicing his faith and just.
26:25
Because he hadn't been going. So yeah.
26:28
And so, but it was, I guess it's different for me in a way
26:30
because I well, no, I guess it's not different.
26:32
But so neither of us received. But the part that was my
26:39
conversion was at the sign of peace.
26:42
Because when when we were when we were told to give each other
26:46
the sign of peace, I didn't know what that was.
26:48
And I looked at Dane and I just looked at him and went, what is
26:51
this? And he had this sheepish smile
26:53
and he said, peace be with you. And he gave me a hug.
26:56
And then I watched him turn to the people.
26:58
I'm probably going to cry around him.
27:01
And so that's what I did, too. And he was shaking their hands.
27:04
So I was like, OK, I guess I turn and I shake hands with
27:06
people. And I turned, and I had a few
27:08
people already turn toward me. And they said, peace be with
27:12
you. And I just realized in that
27:15
moment that I had talked to these people.
27:21
I had looked down on them. I had seen them as foolish, like
27:25
you said, And they want to wish me peace.
27:28
And I knew that they didn't know that, but I knew in that moment
27:34
that Jesus did. And I felt like my soul was
27:38
bared open and sorry, and Jesus and I were just looking at it
27:46
and it was just all of the rot that was there, the mocking.
27:52
And I felt really ashamed, but then I also felt such love
27:57
coming from him that I, I knew I was home and I knew at that
28:02
moment I want to be Catholic. I found God.
28:05
This is what's going to fill that hole.
28:08
So. Did you tell did you tell your
28:11
your boyfriend when you walked out seemed to be husband?
28:14
Because I I didn't know how to even word it.
28:16
I didn't know what happened. It was such a jarring experience
28:22
that I just wanted to sit with it for a while.
28:25
But we were, I was just pretty quiet on the drive home.
28:28
And yeah, as as time went on, I said, can go keep going to Mass.
28:33
And so we checked out a few different masses and his mom got
28:37
me a Bible and tried to go through our CIA at well, this
28:42
was an out after we got married. So we got married in the
28:44
Catholic Church because that's what Dean wanted.
28:46
And I knew I would be Catholic someday.
28:48
So I said absolutely, let's do it and then tried to go through
28:52
our CIA, but it was just a frustrating experience because
28:57
they wanted, there's always a period of called the inquiry
29:00
period before where you ask questions and get any things out
29:05
of the way that might prevent you from becoming Catholic.
29:07
And I just, everything was a big question that I felt like they
29:10
didn't really know what to do with me.
29:12
They wanted specific questions and I didn't have them.
29:15
I just, I wanted to know everything.
29:17
So it didn't work out at that time for me to go through our
29:20
CIA. And it wasn't until I was
29:23
pregnant with my son about four years later that I and we had
29:26
already moved to Arizona, that I went through our CIA.
29:29
How was the second RCA experience different from the?
29:32
First it was amazing and both my in laws were there walking that
29:35
journey with me. My mother-in-law sponsored me
29:38
and so it was just much, much better.
29:41
The very first day I, it was just me because nobody else
29:44
could come and me and the catechist and we just got to
29:48
talk. And I think that was really
29:49
helpful because somehow it was just easier rather than being in
29:52
a group setting to start a conversation and what what I had
29:57
noticed about what I thought about God and things like that.
30:01
I have so many questions about the process you experienced
30:04
because it's very beautiful. So thank you for sharing it and
30:07
for everyone listening. And I'm going to pray for this
30:09
grace for myself too, for the grace to see our own hearts the
30:13
way Jesus does the good and the bad.
30:16
Because if we are not, if we're kind of in deception about our
30:19
own failings and we think we don't need Jesus right then we
30:26
are never get to receive him. There will be a block to him but
30:30
to pray for the humility to see our need for Him.
30:32
Yeah, that's a great prayer. And you, you, you, you were
30:35
given that grace. I was given that, yes.
30:38
What was it like to complete our CIA and then enter the Catholic
30:41
Church? It was amazing.
30:43
My son, I got to be baptized with him.
30:46
He was six months. So that was really, really,
30:48
really special. But yeah, I had gotten to
30:52
receive. I was the Easter Vigil when I
30:54
went in and I received my confirmation, my first Holy
30:59
Eucharist and baptism all at the Easter Vigil.
31:03
And the most impactful sacrament, at least that I felt
31:08
was baptism. Because once, once I was
31:10
baptized, I just felt so light, like I was about to fly up to
31:13
heaven. And so and then of course the
31:17
Eucharist was, I know it was special, but at the time it
31:20
didn't make as much of an impact on me as it does now.
31:23
But is it like been like for you now as a practicing Catholic?
31:26
How many years has it been? 8.
31:28
How How has the last eight years been and how has how do you feel
31:32
like God has been moving in your life over the last eight years?
31:35
Well, I always now try to really reflect on the Eucharist and who
31:39
I'm about to receive. And, and so there was a time
31:42
where my father-in-law actually asked me about when my with my
31:46
first whole Eucharist that I feel anything.
31:49
And I said no. And, and he was kind of like,
31:51
oh, huh, OK, which I thought maybe there's something wrong
31:54
with me. And I remember praying and
31:56
saying, why didn't I feel anything God like help me feel
31:58
something, I guess. And I started crying every
32:01
single time I received the Eucharist.
32:04
Which was because you. I don't know, It was really
32:06
frustrating because I would receive at Mass and then I would
32:09
just start bawling and everyone's looking at me and
32:11
asking if I'm OK. My husband wants to know if I'm
32:13
OK. And I'm like, I don't know why
32:15
I'm crying. I just don't.
32:17
And then I ended up stumbling on Saint Ignatius Discernment of
32:22
Spirits podcast from Father Timothy Gallagher.
32:25
And one of the things was that movements of tears toward holy
32:28
things is movement of the Holy Spirit.
32:31
And so then I thought, OK, God, I get it now.
32:33
Can I stop crying at Mass, please?
32:34
I get it. But one of the things that he
32:39
where I'm at now is have you heard of catechesis of the Good
32:42
Shepherd? So I'm a level 1 catechist and
32:45
kind of fell into that. But just learning more about our
32:49
faith and the Eucharist and Jesus and his institution of it
32:53
has been really beautiful too, with understanding.
32:58
Did you know that every year 200,000 families go bankrupt
33:02
from medical bills? Even with health insurance?
33:05
For many people, insurance is simply not working for them.
33:08
That's why I'm excited to share with you about Crowd Health,
33:11
which is an alternative model for paying for your healthcare.
33:14
Crowd Health takes your bills personally, negotiates them on
33:16
your behalf, and then sends out a request to the community to
33:19
help cover your bills. The Crowd Health community has
33:22
fully funded more than 5000 medical bills over the last two
33:26
years. This includes accidents like a
33:27
young woman in Tennessee who lost her fingers in a boating
33:30
accident to NICU babies and cancer cases.
33:33
Keep in mind, Crowd Health is not the same thing as insurance,
33:36
but it is an alternative model to help pay medical bills and
33:39
keep your monthly costs low. So go to join Crowd Health
33:42
today. Use the code Lila at checkout to
33:44
get your first three months for only $99.00.
33:48
That's join Crowd health.com and use the code Lila at checkout
33:51
out to get your first three months for only $99.
33:54
Join Crowd health.com share with us about the catechesis of the
33:58
Good Shepherd. That's so wonderful that you're
34:00
being trained in that. Yeah.
34:01
So it's a Montessori based program, catechesis program for
34:04
children. There's different levels for
34:08
different ages, but it's, it's not so much as opposed to like a
34:11
book program for catechesis where children would learn about
34:16
the faith and maybe questions and answers and they spit the
34:18
answer back out. Catechesis of the Good Shepherd
34:21
really focuses on helping the child form a relationship with
34:25
God and fall in love with God. And so the, it's, it's like 90
34:30
hours of training for each level, or at least for level 1,
34:33
which I have, but the training itself is so it's catechizing
34:37
for me and it just opens up the scriptures so much more and
34:42
opens up our faith so much more. And so it I'm happy that I get
34:46
to help with the children learn to, but it's been such a gift or
34:50
just my own formation. That's so wonderful that you
34:53
learned how to do that. There's a program that we've
34:55
planning to put our little ones in that teaches that.
34:58
But I was, I was, as I was learning, I was like, I wish I
35:00
knew how to, you know, how to not just teach it, but to
35:03
receive it because it's, so it's basically encountering Jesus
35:07
with that very childlike spirit, which we're called to do as
35:11
adults, not just as, not just to help our children to do that,
35:14
but we're called to have that same approach to Jesus as a
35:16
child does. And watching the children it,
35:19
it's helpful to see then how children approach it because the
35:23
whole point is, yes, I am the catechist, but the real teacher
35:26
is the Holy Spirit. So my role is to just get out of
35:29
the way in what we call the atrium is the room where the
35:31
children are and to let the Holy Spirit speak to these little
35:34
souls and just the things they say and come up with.
35:37
It's mind boggling or mind blowing, I should say.
35:41
It's beautiful, beautiful, simple, but beautiful and very
35:44
deep. Your story for people listening,
35:47
I imagine that some of them, maybe they know someone who has
35:51
been involved in the New age or maybe they themselves have been
35:54
involved in the New age. And maybe that someone's
35:56
listening to your story and thinking, OK, it's beautiful.
35:59
She's in love with Jesus now. You know she's a Catholic, she's
36:02
practicing her Catholic faith. But sounds like her parents were
36:05
pretty great and it sounds like she had some scary experiences
36:08
with it. But sometimes that happens in
36:10
life. And it sounds like overall Wicca
36:13
wasn't so bad, you know, playing devil's advocate here, maybe
36:16
quite literally. But anyways, what would you have
36:19
to say to that? Because I think there's a lot of
36:21
people who dabble in the spirituality stuff, not the, the
36:25
true, I believe spirituality of the church and of Jesus Christ,
36:28
but they're going into it with sincerity and they're themselves
36:32
trying to be a good person. What would you say to them?
36:35
It's one of the things that I tell one of my family members
36:38
because they who who are in the occult, nothing seems bad and
36:42
they don't understand why it would be bad.
36:43
And if you're protecting yourself with a protection
36:46
spell, then why? What's the danger?
36:49
And I just think about the lot of times we hear in the news,
36:52
people knock on someone's door and they pretend to be with the
36:54
energy company. Can I come in and look at the
36:56
meter? They're not going to knock on
36:58
the door and say I'm here to rob you, can you let me in?
37:00
Why would the demonic be any different?
37:03
They're going to try to trick you.
37:04
They're going to try to make it seem helpful and beautiful.
37:07
And you could do this spell and it would help you.
37:09
It would help somebody. What's bad about that?
37:12
But it obviously, I mean, it is bad.
37:15
It's in scripture that we shouldn't be doing this.
37:17
You've had exorcist on here who talk about that.
37:20
And so I would say to those people who, who are doing that,
37:25
if you're going to put your trust somewhere, why not just
37:27
put trust in God? Because he's not going to lead
37:30
you astray. It's the forbidden fruit all
37:32
over again. The apple looked good for, or
37:34
the fruit, I should say, looked good for eating, right.
37:36
The tree looked good for producing good fruit.
37:38
It didn't look that bad. But what happened when Adam and
37:42
Eve ate the apple is they lost that grace in their souls.
37:45
I, it might seem like I came out relatively unscathed compared to
37:49
other people. And I would probably at this
37:51
point agree. I, as far as I know, I never
37:54
experienced A possession or anything like that, but I drug
37:58
other people down with me and have watched the certain things
38:03
that happened in their lives. Whether or not those negative
38:06
things were a result, I don't know.
38:08
But gosh, if it were, and that's because of me, that's awful.
38:14
And the other thing is when I, when I first became Catholic, I
38:18
didn't even think Wicca was bad. I still I thought the church was
38:21
wrong on that and it wasn't until I really started doing a
38:23
deep dive into it, had some conversations with some loved
38:27
ones and realized what they were saying that that's when I
38:30
realized, OK, this is actually very, very bad.
38:33
When I tried to purge my my new age paraphernalia, it was like a
38:38
cockroach infestation. They were it was an every nook
38:41
and cranny of my house. Certain pieces of jewelry I'd
38:44
throw away multiple times because it just kept coming
38:47
back. What do you mean it would keep
38:48
coming back? I would, There was a ring and a
38:50
necklace that I threw away. And then I went a few months
38:53
later I went into my jewelry box to look for something and there
38:57
they were. And I thought, I know, I knew I
38:59
threw these away, right? I'm sure I threw them away.
39:01
I wouldn't have kept them. So I picked them out again and I
39:03
threw them away again. And a few months later I was
39:06
like, I'm going to check just to make sure because I know I threw
39:09
those away and there they were again.
39:11
And so I think it was about 3 or 4 times I had to throw them
39:13
away. Why do you think that was
39:15
happening? I don't know, but it was
39:19
unsettling. And if I were a demon, to play
39:24
devil's advocate, I'd probably play those kind of games on
39:26
people. To try to spook them and make
39:29
them feel uncomfortable about the throwing away and a
39:32
comfortable about the new faith. I don't know.
39:35
Or just to bring, yeah, fear maybe if there's another door
39:38
open through that, I don't know. But it was just very strange.
39:41
And other people I've talked to have had that experience as
39:43
well. There was a woman I knew with a
39:45
Ouija board she had to throw away multiple times.
39:48
And so especially somebody who's who would say that they love
39:53
Jesus, read it in Scripture. We are not supposed to be doing
39:57
these things. It's right there.
39:59
There are some. We have a lot of Protestant and
40:02
evangelical brothers and sisters who listen to the show, and one
40:05
of the biggest, I think. Concerns that they have about
40:10
Catholicism and we've addressed this on the show to some degree,
40:13
but we're going to be doing more apologetics episodes in the
40:15
future as well. So let me know if you have a
40:18
take on this. But one of the concerns is in
40:19
the Old Testament, there is prohibition on calling in the
40:23
dead, you know, necromancy. So calling on the dead, you
40:26
know, and this would be really fortune telling, asking you know
40:29
what, where you know what's going to happen in my future and
40:32
then asking maybe a dead relative to give you a specific
40:35
message or or something like this.
40:37
And so there is this confusion that will the Catholic
40:40
tradition, which is really an ancient Christian tradition that
40:42
spans 2000 years of asking for the intercession of those who
40:46
have been faithful in this life, who've run on to the next for
40:50
asking for their prayers, praying for the dead, that this
40:53
is somehow a violation of that teaching.
40:56
What are your thoughts on that? It's a very big contrast with
41:00
the New Age method, at least. I mean, when with necromancy,
41:04
you're trying to communicate with the dead.
41:07
It's not just asking, can you please pray for me?
41:10
For what? This.
41:11
And then you just leave it at that.
41:13
It's trying to get an answer back.
41:15
And so I think that there's a very, very big difference.
41:18
With that, how has your family received your change of no
41:23
longer practicing Wicca and now being in the Catholic?
41:26
Church, they can see the fruits, but they're sad about it.
41:34
Especially when I became Catholic, when I was really
41:37
discerning and I had one family member beg me not to become
41:39
Catholic because they thought that my faith would be limited.
41:44
Because now I'm being told what to believe in by the Catholic
41:47
Church as opposed to it was me agreeing with what I was
41:51
learning in the Catholic Church. And so it's nice.
41:55
I mean, we can talk about it and they they do see I'm a better
41:58
wife and a better daughter and mother and friend.
42:02
But I think there's one family member that thinks of some point
42:06
I'm going to renounce my Catholicism and come back, which
42:08
is a little frustrating, but I can't control what other people
42:12
think. Yeah, well, we can pray.
42:13
Right. And I do, yeah.
42:15
Pray, pray, and love. Nora, thank you so much for
42:18
sharing your story. Any other advice that you have
42:20
for people listening when it comes to exploring the Catholic
42:25
faith? Oh gosh.
42:27
Well, I would say don't stop exploring.
42:30
I mean, there's so many things. That's what I love about
42:32
Catholicism is any question you have, there's answers for it,
42:36
there's explanations for it, and there's so many amazing people
42:39
to learn from. So definitely keep exploring if
42:43
they're interested and I'll be praying that they come home.
42:46
Thank you. Do you have any one more
42:47
question? Do you have any favorite Saints?
42:51
Yes, I mean, I love the the big ones like Saint Teresa of
42:57
Calcutta, St. Therese, but there's one who I'm
43:02
praying becomes a St. I think he's a servant of God
43:06
now. But Father Walter Chisek, have
43:09
you heard of him? I have.
43:10
Heard of Father Walter? Tell us about him.
43:12
Yeah, we haven't talked about him on the show before.
43:13
OK, he was a Polish American priest in in the 20s, snuck into
43:19
Russia to try to minister to the spiritual needs of the people
43:23
there. And he was captured and sent to
43:26
five years of solitary confinement in Luyanka and then
43:29
an additional 15 years of hard labor in the Gulag.
43:33
And he has a book called He Leadeth Me, which I would
43:36
recommend everybody read. It's just some beautiful book.
43:39
And he talks to stay at home moms even, I mean his.
43:42
It's just amazing how he can relate his experience in the
43:45
Gulag. Not that motherhood is like a
43:47
gulag, but like the monotony of the day and and things like
43:50
that. He's able to really speak quite
43:51
beautifully on that. And so if he ever becomes a St.,
43:54
I think he might be one of my favorites.
43:56
I love that. Thank you so much, Nora.
43:58
Thank you, Lila. A huge thank you to our partner.
44:01
EWTNEWTN is the largest religious network, reaching
44:05
millions of people with the truth of the faith,
44:08
entertainment and news. Check them out at ewtn.com.