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The Emotional Immaturity Epidemic with Steph and Craig: Why Adults Are Stuck in Childhood Patterns · The Virtual Couch

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  Music.
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  Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of The Virtual Couch.
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  I'm your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
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  certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker, husband, father of four,
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  and so excited to get to today's episode.
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  Today, I am sharing this bonus episode of an interview that I was on on my good
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  friends Steph and Craig's podcast, the aptly named Steph and Craig Show.
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  So, Steph and Craig were on my podcast a few months ago, and the episode was
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  about taking the scenic route in your relationship because they have both been
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  through a lot of amazing,
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  wonderful things in their lives that they've acknowledged they would not take
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  any of them back, but they have really been on a journey, a deep dive,
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  learned so much about themselves.
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  So, I pulled up the introduction to the podcast to their appearance on the virtual
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  couch a little while ago.
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  And I think this will give you an idea of who Steph and Craig are.
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  In that episode, in the introduction, I said, Steph and Craig shared their remarkable
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  journey from meeting as a police officer and dispatcher to becoming relationship
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  content creators who are being radically vulnerable.
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  They don't hold back because they discuss the chaos of their early relationship,
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  blending families, career crisis, mental health struggles, and the imbalance
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  dynamics that nearly tore them apart.
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  And if you have not listened to that episode, I highly recommend it.
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  I know I've said that before about other episodes, but they are just connected
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  in such a fascinating way.
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  You can't help but just be drawn into their story. If I remember correctly, in that episode.
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  At one point, we were talking about, I think, emotional regulation or differentiation
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  or some mental health topic.
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  And Steph was sharing an experience that she had. And she was having,
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  I think, a little bit of a panic attack.
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  And they were in a car. And I just love that Craig said that he wanted to help so bad.
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  And they pulled over at the side of the road. And I think he said,
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  do you need to chant or do a drum circle?
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  And I just thought, those are not the first things that come to my mind when
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  I am hoping to help soothe my dear wife.
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  I love that that's where they're at. The reason I wanted to share today's interview
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  on my podcast is because I've been somewhat obsessed with what I am calling
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  the emotional immaturity epidemic.
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  I think once you recognize the ways that we are all emotionally immature, you can't unsee it.
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  And I think it really helps people show up better in their own relationships.
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  And we didn't know what we didn't know of how we show up in immature ways,
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  whether it's the all or nothing black or white thinking. I just had a couple
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  leave my office, and one of the things I'm seeing so often is one of the people
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  in the relationship will shut down and go inward.
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  I can check in with them and say, okay, what are you thinking right now?
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  And they're saying, I don't really want to say the wrong thing,
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  as if there was a right and a wrong thing to say.
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  So, they revert back to this emotionally immature way that was helpful.
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  As a child, we were able to even dig back into this person's childhood,
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  and there wasn't a lot of curiosity about who they were as a kid.
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  So they already didn't offer up things about themselves, but even more so,
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  then they would hunker down, wait till the storm subsided.
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  They don't wanna say the wrong thing and get in more trouble.
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  And that kept them alive as a kid, but in their adult relationship,
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  it's not very helpful because when one partner was having some big emotions
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  and then I watched as this other partner turned inward and shut down,
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  then you can see that that partner that was being emotional felt like they were left on their own.
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  They felt abandoned, but the little kid and the other partner that shut down
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  and didn't want to get in trouble or say the wrong thing, that worked, but it no longer does.
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  And we were able to have a really healthy conversation around how to show up
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  in a more emotionally mature way.
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  And within 10 or 15 minutes, we had solved everything. They lived happily ever
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  after and they are done with therapy.
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  That is also emotionally mature. That is my magical thinking.
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  That actually did not happen, but it really was a good session.
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  If you wanna know more about Stephen Craig, go to stephencraig.co.
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  I'll have the link in the show notes. And also at some point in the interview,
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  I will insert in there a couple of things.
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  I've got some information about a cruise that I am participating in that I will
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  be doing some speaking, some workshops, and it's with my friend,
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  Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee, co-host of Love ADHD, the podcast.
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  And I will also, for any of you men who hang on until the very end,
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  I've got a little bit of a longer commercial.
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  Somewhat of a commercial about my men's emotional architects group,
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  which is very much ready to start up.
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  And that is going to help a lot of us become more emotionally mature.
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  So I highly recommend that.
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  And as always, please go follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch or on TikTok at virtual couch.
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  Starting to up the number of live question and answers with my daughter, Sydney.
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  So I try to do that once or twice a week. I would love for you to follow me
• 5:07
  on those social media platforms and catch one of those lives.
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  If you have questions though, in general, submit them through my website, tonyoverbay.com.
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  While you're there, sign up for the newsletter, or you can reach out to me at
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  contact at tonyoverbay.com.
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  Okay. Without any further ado, let's get to my appearance on the Stephen Craig show.
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  Tony, welcome back. We're super excited to have you here. I had this idea in my head too.
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  It's gone now, but I just realized as we began, I was going to give you like
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  this big introduction. I don't know if that came to me in a dream or not.
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  It was like, I don't remember what it was, but here we are.
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  Okay. I'll talk about the thing that I was going to do and then not do the thing.
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  So then it's really awkward and strange. It was very powerful.
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  It's theater of the mind.
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  I'm sure the listener right now is thinking of their own powerful introduction of me, even.
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  And well if they're listening to the show they know who you are
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  because we have been had the pleasure of speaking with you
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  yeah it's been like a year since you were on this i don't remember
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  i think so about a year wow sounds
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  right how did that go so fast i
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  don't know i get okay it speeds up the older we get isn't that
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  a fact some there's some physics thing that's why i'm a therapist
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  i don't know math or physics but there's something to do with time time
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  travel time speeding up something about it totally feels like
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  it speeds up when you get older right when you were a kid it was so
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  slow like you had to wait for summer break and
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  then you had to wait for christmas and then you had to wait for your birthday and
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  all of it was just so incredibly like come on already i was like waiting for
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  18 forever thought i would never never get there now i'm like it's already i've
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  already doubled that number like in a blink and then some i'm like how well
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  like what you're saying is now it's like, man, it's already Christmas again.
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  It's already my birthday.
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  It's already summer. Yeah. Yeah.
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  Yeah. It happens really fast. Tony, you mentioned emotional immaturity.
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  Yeah. We posted this. We had this piece of content that is doing pretty good on Facebook right now.
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  It's got over 5 million views and we stole the, it's, it's a repurposed piece
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  of content of this woman just flipping a car.
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  So it's a, some sort of like weight competition where they strip down a car
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  and then you have to flip it over on, on its top and then continue to flip it
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  over all the way. Right. She's a badass. She's rolling.
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  It's awesome. It's a really cool reel. And then I put in the,
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  like on the screen, the text on the screen is women bear, like carrying the
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  emotional weight of the relationship.
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  And in the clip too, they've got, it's perfectly shot where there's these two
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  guys that are like, when she gets it lifted up, they slide in supports underneath
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  the tires at the very beginning. So it's like men doing the bare minimum.
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  And when it comes to emotional weight, carrying the emotional weight of the
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  relationship. So it's sparked quite a bit of conversation.
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  There's a handful of comments on there, like thousands of people that are mostly
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  men that obviously have an issue with it. Okay.
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  And it has really made me think about, because,
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  There's a lot of negativity on there, but it's like fallen into a couple of different camps.
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  One camp is people that just want to argue the fact that, you know,
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  this is bullshit and emotional weight isn't a real thing. And women are the
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  ones that bring the emotional weight. So it's like men arguing that this is bullshit.
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  And then the next camp is just like complete.
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  It's not even an engine in the car. Yeah. Like just completely minimizing the
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  woman, right? That she obviously this is a stripped down car,
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  like this is a joke, all of those things.
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  And then the last one is just pure sexualization of the whole experience.
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  And none of it is taking responsibility for, I mean, it's definitely,
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  I definitely, you know, framed it in such a way where I was hoping to spark
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  something from people because I think it's a really big issue.
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  But what it's highlighting for me, because it's gone so big and there's people
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  all over the world commenting on it is it's just like the level with which men
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  will avoid taking accountability and ownership of a simple thing of,
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  hey, maybe you need to look at your emotions.
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  And instead everything else that we'll do to kind of avoid that.
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  And it's just, it's fascinating, but it's also really disheartening.
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  And it's the last couple of days being in the weeds and the comments and responding
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  to people and engaging with people.
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  I'm just like, holy cow. Like I didn't feel like it was that bad off,
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  but it feels like it's pretty bad off where there's a, I mean,
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  it's a very small snippet of society.
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  Obviously it's like a 5 million views and then 300, not 300,000,
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  but like 3000 or 5,000 comments or something like that.
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  So definitely a small percentage, but at the same time, I'm like, is it really that bad?
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  Are men still so oblivious to the fact that they have to feel and express and
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  connect and all of these kinds of different ways? Yeah.
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  So it's perfect timing that you're here to talk about it. It really is.
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  It's such a good setup and mind if I tangent, and then we'll come and we'll
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  make our way there because I think this is so excellent because so when I started,
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  so I've got the two podcasts, virtual couch and which is 450 or so episodes
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  and waking up to narcissism, which is I think maybe pushing 140 and the waking
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  up to narcissism has always had.
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  I always had this vision that, and it's funny because the word narcissist is
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  thrown around everywhere.
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  Everyone's ex is a narcissist. Everybody's boss is a narcissist.
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  I do maintain that cats are narcissistic in nature.
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  Every little kid is by definition a narcissist. They're so ego,
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  egocentric, but the actual population or that could be diagnosed with narcissistic
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  personality disorder, but depending on your study is, I don't know, three to 5%.
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  So then I've said what we all are though, is emotionally immature.
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  And if we start from a place of emotional immaturity, then it's a lot more palatable.
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  People are willing to say, okay, that's fair. I've been called a narcissist,
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  but I can agree. I'm probably emotionally immature.
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  And I thought, and I introduced that concept, I want to say before episode five or six.
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  And so then I say continually, and it's a mouthful of somebody who has narcissistic
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  personality disorder, or they have narcissistic traits or states or tendencies,
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  or they are extremely emotionally immature.
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  But I made it a point that I'm willing to say all those words because I want
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  that part to be very prominent so we can have the conversation because a narcissist
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  is, and what I say often on the podcast is if you are even asking yourself, am I narcissistic?
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  You're not because a true narcissist wouldn't do that. Now there's a true narcissist
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  would also game the system or weaponize a tool.
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  So they'd say, okay, fine. Am I a narcissist?
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  I guess I'm not. I just asked myself the question. So there's a whole vibe there
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  that is not being very honest about that introspection. but then once we establish
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  all right we're all emotionally mature i thought all right i have changed the world but then a mere.
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  Two years later and 120, or I guess it would be more, three years later,
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  I just, I continue to say emotional immaturity.
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  And I'm realizing that I would give these examples and people weren't really internalizing that.
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  They were saying, man, she is that way. Yeah.
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  Or she's saying, no, he's very immature.
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  And then I'm saying, okay, but go back to the part where I'm saying,
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  how about we start from a place where we all are immature.
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  So there is the baseline, which we will operate today, if that is okay.
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  Absolutely. Okay. So now I agree with all of that as well.
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  Like that alone right there is something that I can relate to significantly
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  over the course of our relationship, where at the beginning I had,
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  I mean, massive emotional immaturity.
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  And when all of the narcissism started coming on the scene and everybody was
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  talking about it so much and you saw so much content surrounding it,
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  I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm falling into that camp because I did display so
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  many of those behaviors and so many of those things,
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  even some of the subtle gaming it and manipulating it to some extent,
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  because I was intellectual enough to kind of like recognize,
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  but deep down inside, obviously it's really just that emotional immaturity that's taking place.
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  Yeah. So I appreciate that too. And so I think let's talk about now what that
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  really looks like. And then what really pushed me, I did a two-part series just
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  a few weeks ago on what emotional immaturity looks like as an adult.
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  And what really brought it home for me was I did a training as a therapist with,
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  it's an online training.
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  I didn't do it with him directly. I wish I could, but with a guy named Terry Real.
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  And he's a therapist that I hear mentioned often. And then his training was
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  incredible. And he works a lot with the narcissistic person or the emotionally immature as well.
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  And I felt a kindred soul there because that's a population I ended up working
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  a lot with are people that are in those relationships.
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  But he was able to put this concept together that I so appreciated where he
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  said that the things that we did that were adaptive in our childhood to survive
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  basically are now maladaptive as adults.
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  And it fit right into, oh, those things are emotionally immature,
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  which makes sense because they kept us alive as a kid.
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  And now we bring them into our adult relationships and they don't work so well.
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  So, I'm going to quote a cheat sheet that I made after the episodes and I would
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  welcome anybody to reach out to me and I will provide them with this cheat sheet.
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  It's just a couple of pages. Um.
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  And now I'm going to step even further back in a tangent because on this cheat
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  sheet, I quoted a book that I like.
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  I don't know if either of you are familiar with the, there's a book called The Silent Patient.
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  It's an excellent book. It's written by Alex and I will butcher the last name,
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  but I think it's Michelaitis.
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  But then it's a mental health book and you can tell that it's not a mental health book.
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  It's a fictional book about a patient in a mental health institution that ends
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  up, I won't spoil it all for it. It's brilliant.
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  It's just such a brilliant book. But you can tell that Alex is either has been
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  a therapist, psychologist, or has been pretty engaged in therapy.
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  And when I eventually went and tried to find more about the author,
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  it looks like he's just very pro-therapy.
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  But then he has a follow-up book called The Fury, and it doesn't really focus
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  as much on mental health.
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  But in the book, he, in his description of therapy through one of the main characters,
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  this is what the character said.
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  And I think, I'm already telling you, and I think that you must appreciate this
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  quote. We'll see if you do.
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  Yeah, Steph might say, that's a snooze. get on with it, old man.
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  So the character, okay. Okay. So the character says, he says,
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  my therapist was called Mariana.
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  I remember once she said something chilling and messed up my head for a long
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  time. Looking back, I think it changed my entire life.
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  When we're young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated, something happens.
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  Time stops. It freezes at that moment. A version of us is trapped at that age forever.
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  A frightened child is hiding in your mind. It's still unsafe.
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  It's still unheard and unloved.
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  And the sooner you get in touch with that child and then communicate with them,
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  the more harmonious your life will be.
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  After all, that's what he grew you for, isn't it? A strong adult body to look
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  after him and his interests, to take care of him and protect him.
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  You were meant to liberate him, but instead you ended up becoming his jailer.
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  And I remember that part hit me so strong where, I mean, yeah,
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  right? Let that one set in.
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  I don't know. What does that feel like or what are you thinking right now?
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  Just that part of like, you were meant to liberate him, but instead
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  became their jailer was just that res
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  oh my gosh it was with all the inner
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  child work that also speak like that
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  i have done i know it's a we i'm just like speaking for myself and
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  how much of that has been about breaking
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  her free breaking them free and that
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  like integration and that liberation of it and
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  while that's what i'm doing now you can't hear
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  that and realize how much it absolutely was a
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  gelling and then as i progressed it
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  was a i was it was like a gelling with punishment it was like a cruel warden
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  because then i was like so mad for all the choices times babe where like like
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  in the process of you getting to the spot that you're at now and i did the same
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  thing so it's not just like you did this but like the process of recognizing
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  parts work and inner child healing and identifying.
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  That part existed and you're like, I don't want to deal with it.
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  I don't want to like, I don't want to like, you would shun her even more.
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  I preferred her to stay buried in the dungeon.
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  It's crazy. It took forever before I could go there. Cause it was so painful.
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  So, so much, just all of the reasons, right? Just, just from that.
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  I'm glad I knew I wrote the book down. I'm going to read that soon. That was so good.
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  Well, I appreciate it. When you're saying it's the cruel warden,
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  because that's unfortunately, and I think that just unlocked the whole thing
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  I need to talk about on just kind of spitball with you here is I go back to
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  why so many of us default to shame.
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  And I'm convinced that that is a childhood defense because when you,
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  you know, for I think most of your listeners are probably going to know that
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  difference between guilt and shame. Guilt, I did something bad.
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  Shame, I am bad. And I find that even as the adult self goes to shame,
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  they still think that they need
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  to beat themselves up in order to improve and even more so with shame.
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  And I did an episode a while ago where it felt like I was kicking somebody while they were down.
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  But I said, shame actually is pretty selfish because let's say that somebody
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  says, this is how I feel about the thing you've done.
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  And that person now realizes the impact that their behavior has had on their partner.
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  And now they feel worse. And so then they say, oh my gosh, I am a horrible person.
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  And now all of a sudden it went back to them. And the person that just opened
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  up to them now has to say, hey, it's okay.
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  Now you're then caretaking them. Yeah, right? So shame does get you out of a
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  jam, which goes back to this.
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  Your childhood adaptation is now maladaptive as an adult.
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  But you can see that it kept you alive as a kid because a lot of times the only
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  way people would get out of something as a little kid was to feel like garbage.
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  And I think that our own emotionally immature parents, bless their hearts,
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  didn't know what they didn't know.
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  But they don't think we're taking it serious enough
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  if we don't hang our head and say what a piece of garbage we
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  are then they're saying okay no it's okay it looks
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  like you get it and now they rescue us it's okay champ but i'm glad that you
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  understand what a piece of garbage you are and so that's what we've been modeled
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  now bring that into our adult right craig what are you feeling now oh my goodness
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  i can relate to that right yeah yeah i can feel that and i can also see the
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  way that I parented like that.
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  And it's like, I don't think you really understand the significance here.
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  I don't think you really get it. And then I'm like, okay, maybe you do get it.
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  Yeah. And then when they start to feel like, okay. And then they get up.
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  Well, come here. Exactly what you just said.
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  Damn. So crazy. Okay. And I'm digging this to laying this stuff out this way as well.
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  So now, yeah, that guilt, that shame. So childhood adaptation that we bring in.
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  And so now look at it like, all right, your little kid and this is I and Craig
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  loving some of the content you've been putting out lately about men and feelings
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  because I'm with you. I think that.
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  Even a good parent, this is what they did with our feelings.
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  If I said, man, I just feel so bad about something like, hey, it's not a big deal.
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  Don't worry about it or get over it. And then I'm basically feeling like,
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  well, man, I feel like it's a big deal.
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  So I guess I'm wrong about my feelings and I need somebody over time to fix
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  it for me, to tell me that I'm okay.
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  So I'm going to go to people and say, man, I think this, or I feel this way
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  waiting for somebody to say, oh, it's okay. You don't need to worry about that.
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  But then if they say, oh, that is bad. Then I'm like, oh man,
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  now I feel worse. Then I go to shame.
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  Gosh, I'm just such a piece of garbage. Oh, no, you're good. You're okay.
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  So we just create this loop where we don't really have to deal with our own emotions.
• 20:28
  And I think that's part of this immaturity. I'm going to call it an emotional
• 20:31
  immaturity epidemic where then we don't really have to take ownership or accountability
• 20:36
  of things because that feels really bad. Our feelings are bad.
• 20:39
  So I'm either going to push them away because that worked as a kid.
• 20:42
  Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism.
• 20:44
  If I can hang in there and say I didn't do it or the dog did it or whatever,
• 20:48
  and I hold to my guns, I will get out of it. And so we learn childhood.
• 20:52
  Gaslighting is a childhood defensive mechanism. Yeah.
• 20:55
  Yeah. It's built in from the factory. Now look at that, where we bring that into our adulthood.
• 20:59
  It was somewhat adaptive as a child, but it's maladaptive in our adult relationships
• 21:04
  because it does not build connection because there are so many times that our
• 21:08
  partner knows that we did it, but we're so good at it. I, but I didn't.
• 21:13
  And we will hold that to the very end until finally they say okay i mean i guess
• 21:18
  maybe i am crazy and then to that little kid that just gas lit as an adult who
• 21:24
  made it out of another one and so then they don't have to think about it anymore
• 21:27
  but to their partner they're having this.
• 21:31
  Continued pattern of okay maybe i
• 21:33
  maybe i'm going crazy because i just saw this or you did
• 21:36
  say that or with that gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism now
• 21:40
  we can get into we're going to get into so many other good versions or
• 21:43
  examples of emotional immaturity because now I just
• 21:46
  back to that quote I think it just it's so just beautifully
• 21:49
  illustrates the process of then emotional development because those moments
• 21:53
  that are locked in us so let me go back to the feelings emotions so I think
• 21:56
  our what this talks about is our child our inner child then imprints the memory
• 22:01
  and or the feeling the feeling more feeling the emotion and then it says okay
• 22:06
  I don't know what to do with this thing right now.
• 22:08
  But then when you grow up, you'll deal with it, right? Because you'll be a big kid.
• 22:13
  So then we grow up and we miss the memo somewhere along the way.
• 22:17
  So then here comes that emotion and our inner child is saying,
• 22:20
  okay, good. The big kid's going to take over. But then the big kid is not there.
• 22:25
  It's just the little kid and wearing grown up clothes. And when you look at
• 22:29
  it that way, then you can start to see our emotional maturity.
• 22:31
  So I wrote a couple of examples and these are basically, spoiler alert,
• 22:35
  these are kind of me is what they are.
• 22:37
  But I said, what's fascinating, how these frozen moments manifest in adult relationships,
• 22:40
  the child who learned to people please to avoid conflict becomes the adult who can't set boundaries.
• 22:45
  And I look at where I'm at now and I make jokes about it, but I have such a
• 22:49
  hard time saying no to anyone in my family.
• 22:51
  And that's why I work more than I ever thought I would work.
• 22:55
  That's why I will just make more money because I don't want to say no if somebody
• 22:59
  wants something or they need something.
• 23:00
  And my joke has lately been that I'm at least learning to pause before I say
• 23:05
  yes. So it used to be, hey, dad, can I? And I'm like, yeah, you bet.
• 23:07
  And now I'll at least let them ask the thing and then I'll say yes.
• 23:11
  So, I mean, there's growth there, but I still that people pleaser me.
• 23:15
  I don't want anybody to feel bad or I don't want them to think something about
• 23:19
  me. We'll get to that one in a minute too.
• 23:21
  Or the child who learned to shut down emotions becomes the partner who can't
• 23:24
  express vulnerability.
• 23:25
  I was talking with a client recently who they lost their dad early.
• 23:29
  They were the youngest of a whole bunch of kids.
• 23:31
  And then they had a stepfather that wasn't really engaged. And so they just
• 23:35
  learn that, okay, my, I just need to fade into the background and I will survive.
• 23:41
  Now in their adult relationships, they're more of that avoidant personality. Yeah.
• 23:46
  And when their partner really wants to know them, they just don't say anything.
• 23:50
  And then the partner eventually creates a narrative.
• 23:53
  Okay. I mean, I'll, I guess we'll talk about it later or I must be the problem.
• 23:57
  And so you can see where that's unhealthy in the adult relationship,
• 24:00
  but it was adaptive in their childhood.
• 24:02
  So I just think that the, all these immature behaviors that we're doing,
• 24:07
  we need to thank our inner child when we recognize them because it got us here.
• 24:12
  Thanks. Thanks little buddy.
• 24:13
  But we got to let the big kid take over. but then the big kid doesn't really
• 24:16
  know what to do, or they're still afraid that they'll do it wrong,
• 24:19
  which is yet another version of emotional immaturity.
• 24:22
  Or this one is me as well. I put in here the child who needed constant reassurance
• 24:26
  becomes the adult seeking endless external validation.
• 24:29
  Now we're getting into those narcissistic traits and tendencies because I have
• 24:33
  needed validation my whole life to know, am I okay? Do you guys like me?
• 24:37
  And so I think it's interesting. I had to be a class officer.
• 24:41
  I had to be a class clown. I had to write a humor column in a newspaper.
• 24:44
  I can't just have one podcast. I got to have a whole bunch of podcasts.
• 24:47
  I got to speak everywhere.
• 24:49
  And then I didn't realize how much that was parents that weren't really seeing
• 24:53
  me. They had a lot of their own stuff going on.
• 24:54
  So I'm like, I'm over here. Hey, if I do really good at sports,
• 24:57
  will you guys like me? Okay. A little bit there.
• 24:59
  And then what's really funny to me too, is I was an ultra marathon runner for
• 25:03
  25, 30 years. That's not just a marathon.
• 25:06
  Ultra marathons are anything longer than 26 miles. So I had to do 32 miles and
• 25:10
  I had to do 50 miles and I had to do a hundred K 62 miles and I had to do a
• 25:13
  hundred milers. Then I had to do 24 hour events.
• 25:16
  I had to run 125 miles, 133 miles. And now I realized that was part of that.
• 25:21
  When is enough? Why couldn't I have stopped at a 5k? That would have been kind of nice.
• 25:25
  So it's that I needed endless external validation seeking.
• 25:28
  And that has been a lot, I'm sure in my adult relationship because it was just,
• 25:34
  I now realize I never got enough of it.
• 25:37
  And so I've had to really work on that.
• 25:40
  That's been a huge thing for me lately too, Tony, is unpacking what that actually
• 25:45
  looks like in my life because I can relate so much to it where all of the,
• 25:50
  like I used to be, I wasn't like the class officer or anything like that,
• 25:53
  but I was always like the class clown kind of, but like the crazy kid that was
• 25:57
  trying to seek attention by doing all sorts of like jumping off of things and
• 26:01
  all these kinds of crazy stunts and all of this stuff to just please see me,
• 26:06
  please validate me, please tell me that I'm worth something.
• 26:09
  And that's consistently continued all the way up and through adulthood up until,
• 26:14
  I mean, it still happens. It's not something that just kind of like goes away.
• 26:17
  It's still something that I'm constantly having to pay attention to.
• 26:22
  Is this act driven by that internal need for wanting to have validation externally
• 26:26
  for somebody to come along and say, you're actually worth something?
• 26:30
  Yeah. Or is that something that I can learn to continually cultivate and create
• 26:33
  inside of me? And I don't think it's a mistake that we've gotten to the point
• 26:37
  in our life where we're like,
• 26:38
  creating content and we're on social media and doing all of these things, right?
• 26:42
  It's just this massive externalization of that thing where it's like,
• 26:46
  Hey, universe out there, please like, and follow a chair and tell us that we're worth something.
• 26:52
  It's funny. When I've thought about that too, where I love everything that I'm
• 26:57
  doing in therapy, the acceptance and commitment therapy has changed my life.
• 27:01
  Learning about emotional maturity and validation. I've learned so much about
• 27:04
  my ADHD that I had a separate podcast about that for a while.
• 27:08
  I had to learn this parenting technique.
• 27:10
  I've had to navigate my faith crisis. And all of those things are part of my
• 27:15
  practice. I have content on.
• 27:17
  And in my mind, it's just in the past, it was just, no, I just want to help people.
• 27:21
  But yeah, I've thought over the
• 27:23
  last little while that, or if people agree with me, then I must be okay.
• 27:27
  I must be doing it right, which goes back to one of the most core,
• 27:32
  fundamental, emotionally immature.
• 27:34
  I don't know what i'm calling them characteristics though is that black
• 27:37
  or white thinking and what i'd love to do is take
• 27:39
  you through a bunch of these that that i'll give you the kid example
• 27:43
  and then we can look at how it shows up in adult relationships and i would love
• 27:46
  to know what comes up for you there if you have examples of that yourselves
• 27:49
  i don't know you're game like we're gonna check every box oh i hope so i mean
• 27:54
  i there's a part of me that thinks that if people don't then it's funny this
• 27:58
  is why i think that the black and white or all or nothing thinking is at the core because it really.
• 28:04
  It's the, there's a right way and a wrong way. There is a, I don't want to say
• 28:08
  the wrong thing because black and white, all or nothing, good, bad, right, wrong.
• 28:13
  And so children, they see the world in absolutes. So things are all good or they're all bad.
• 28:18
  So in adults, it ends up showing up as ultimatums or labeling partners as always
• 28:23
  doing something or never doing something.
• 28:25
  And then that bleeds into the relationship itself. And it cycles between when
• 28:29
  my spouse is doing things I like, then I idealize the relationship.
• 28:35
  And then when they do something I don't like, then I devalue the relationship.
• 28:39
  And so, we get into this mix where we're just trying to manage each other's
• 28:44
  emotions to get the validation.
• 28:45
  And where I see this happen a lot lately, because I've been bringing this stuff
• 28:49
  into my couples therapy a lot, is someone will express themselves and they'll
• 28:53
  do it in a good, healthy way.
• 28:54
  I know last time I was on, I talked about my beloved four pillars of a connected
• 28:57
  conversation and we're showing up and we're trying to be genuinely curious and
• 29:00
  all those things. But the other person just kind of shuts down.
• 29:02
  And now I can look over and say, hey, what's going on here? And usually they'll
• 29:05
  say, I don't know. I just, I don't know.
• 29:07
  And now I can say, all right, child, little child inside of you,
• 29:11
  are you worried you're going to say the wrong thing?
• 29:12
  And most every time, I'm not a big all or nothing guy, but most every time it's,
• 29:17
  yeah, I don't want to say it in the wrong way.
• 29:19
  And that's where I'm saying, oh,
• 29:20
  okay. So this is your inner child that is worried about getting it wrong.
• 29:25
  And the very first person that I brought this up with, she was awesome.
• 29:29
  And she talked about getting in trouble.
• 29:31
  And I think it was like violin lessons or piano lessons as a kid.
• 29:34
  And then she had learned that then she, if she just hunkered down,
• 29:38
  she would eventually, after being told that she did things wrong or bad,
• 29:42
  the right way to do things.
• 29:43
  And then she would then echo it. And then she would get the praise and get out of the situation.
• 29:47
  So she had learned that when things got intense, if I just hunkered down,
• 29:51
  eventually I'll be told what I need to say what the right thing will be.
• 29:55
  So you see that black or white thinking and so many things will go back to that,
• 29:59
  that I don't want to say the wrong thing.
• 30:02
  But I like this idea. There's this spot in there, Tony, where you were mentioning
• 30:05
  like the, because I relate so much to that black and white thinking.
• 30:09
  And it was a big chunk of what I had a really good therapist that I worked with
• 30:13
  a few years ago during COVID and everything like that.
• 30:16
  And that's oftentimes the thing that he would always bring me back to is it's
• 30:19
  can't it be both, can't it be both, can't it be both. like this mantra that
• 30:24
  he kept repeating over and over again.
• 30:26
  And every time he would say it, I would get so pissed off at him.
• 30:29
  And I'm like, yes, yes, it can be both. Fine. Okay.
• 30:32
  Yes, yes. Fine. It can be both. But I didn't pick up on like when we are in
• 30:37
  activation together, like when we're fighting and arguing with each other,
• 30:41
  we will very much use that language of you always do this or you never do this.
• 30:46
  And I haven't put that piece together that that's the manifestation of that same dynamic.
• 30:51
  Cause we, I mean, we do that. I was thinking, I was thinking about how you do
• 30:55
  that a lot. You were thinking how I do that.
• 30:57
  I was, it's funny. Like, I wonder what part of this is. Cause I was like,
• 31:00
  Oh man, we used to do that so much.
• 31:02
  And what actually started helping with that is I would tell you,
• 31:08
  I'm like, you always, or you never. And you were like, I never.
• 31:11
  And then just like the way I was like, okay, actually you do it a lot.
• 31:15
  You do do it a lot. And just, you're not doing it right now about this,
• 31:19
  but you like category, I can't think of the word. Categorized or?
• 31:24
  Yeah, all of the nevers. Like when you're in that space, your mind isn't looking
• 31:28
  to bring peace in that situation or look at the full perspective.
• 31:34
  It's looking to validate your emotional or your reaction, your feeling that
• 31:39
  it's trying to prove you right.
• 31:40
  So you're not able to quite see that and you're only looking for,
• 31:45
  let me show you why I'm right right now.
• 31:46
  In a deep core level and it's so to be able to catch that and go oh wait a minute okay.
• 31:53
  And also i want to say before we go into this and all
• 31:56
  these like our listeners that are and your listeners that are like oh my gosh
• 31:59
  i'm checking all these boxes it's like how could we not oh it's okay it's okay
• 32:04
  yeah one of the i'd say the main feedback and i've received more feedback from
• 32:09
  these this these two episodes i've done around this than i have in a long time and a
• 32:13
  of it is i so see this i identify and it's
• 32:16
  basically saying now what do i do and i
• 32:19
  i got to throw a part three out there and say oh my bad i
• 32:22
  just think it's cool to know right now we'll get to the what you do with it
• 32:25
  later because i love this path of like path of enlightenment of where we didn't
• 32:29
  know what we didn't know now we know and we're not exactly sure what to do or
• 32:33
  we do sometimes and then that's probably where we'll spend the most time it's
• 32:37
  frustrating because sometimes we wish we just didn't know and then eventually
• 32:40
  you'll get to this part where i do whatever I need to do more than I don't.
• 32:43
  And then the last part of that is I have become it is.
• 32:46
  And and so we're in that that awkward part right now where oh my gosh, now I know. And what's,
• 32:52
  interesting is then the little child's going to come in and hang her head.
• 32:56
  Oh man, I do that stuff. But I just wanted to be, oh, check it out.
• 32:59
  I totally do that. That is a thing. How cool is that?
• 33:02
  Now I know, but I guess I'm trying to sell that.
• 33:05
  So I like that you're saying that. And I want to say too, the all or nothing
• 33:08
  black or white thinking, I have to tell you what that looks like from a couple's therapist.
• 33:12
  If I'm watching the couple on
• 33:14
  the couch in front of me, and I brought awareness to this for a long time,
• 33:17
  because I would say, don't use all or nothing statements, because the second
• 33:21
  that the, well, the say, the husband says, and you never say that you love me,
• 33:26
  the wife is not leaning in with empathy going, wow, that would be really difficult.
• 33:30
  If to you, it feels like I never, they, she's sitting, you watch her kind of
• 33:33
  tune out a little bit. Cause she's thinking of, okay, no, I said it yesterday.
• 33:36
  And almost like she wants to raise her hand. Hey, hang on. Let me,
• 33:39
  if I can just correct that, then we can move on. But that's not the point. All the time. Okay.
• 33:44
  As soon as she'll say something along those lines of you never do this thing.
• 33:49
  And I'm sitting there thinking, I'm like, okay, literally I did it yesterday.
• 33:53
  I did it like 15 minutes before we had this conversation.
• 33:56
  I do this thing on the regular.
• 33:58
  Do you know what I mean? Whatever it is, right? There's so many different examples of it.
• 34:01
  Well, then we get to go into victim mode and go, I can't believe you don't think
• 34:04
  I ever do that. And now I just made it about me and that will get us out in the weeds.
• 34:08
  So even in just basic couples therapy, I'm trying to bring awareness to that
• 34:12
  of even just changing that language to,
• 34:14
  and I don't, and i don't feel like you often do this or i don't think you often
• 34:17
  do this or i don't think that you it seems like it has been a long time since
• 34:22
  you said this versus the you haven't said this even if you give a time frame
• 34:26
  that's another one too you haven't said this in years then the person's immediately
• 34:29
  going through i don't think it's been years and you just watch that vibe from the couple's therapist.
• 34:35
  View and you know that at that moment, we've kind of lost the momentum.
• 34:40
  I really like that you're bringing that up. So that's just the first one,
• 34:43
  the black or white thinking, all or nothing thinking.
• 34:45
  The second one is my favorite because as I was creating the content,
• 34:49
  I realized, oh man, this makes so much sense.
• 34:52
  So I don't really like opening my mail at all.
• 34:55
  I don't like looking at my bank account.
• 34:58
  And as long as nobody comes and gets me, it seems like it's okay.
• 35:03
  But I'm not gonna lie i've had to pay some extra taxes currently i've had to
• 35:09
  pay lots of late registration fees for vehicles and i've got a lot of things
• 35:14
  set up on auto pay but other things i don't and my stack of mail will be insane
• 35:18
  and i'm sure i'm the only person that's ever dealt with that.
• 35:22
  Craig you're not that'd be
• 35:25
  me oh that's you step i love it okay it's
• 35:29
  so bad that i have several emails not because i really
• 35:31
  need them but because i'm like okay i can't handle that one anymore i'll to start
• 35:34
  a new one oh that's even better this will be for only my important
• 35:37
  ones now there we go i love that i
• 35:40
  don't get rid of them they just have like oh my gosh okay
• 35:44
  so on it but okay this is the best so this one is the it's the magical thinking
• 35:49
  and welcome to the world of magical thinking because this one it's and this
• 35:52
  is uh we'll talk we'll deal with it later the we'll talk about the difficult
• 35:56
  things later that's magical or i will and what what it's about is that when you're a kid,
• 36:03
  kids believe that their thoughts can influence their external reality.
• 36:06
  And it's in so many different ways.
• 36:08
  If I don't leave my stuffed animals in a good position on my bed when I go to
• 36:12
  school, then they might get disappointed by the time I get home.
• 36:15
  Or I was listening to this podcast, this guy, Derek Thompson,
• 36:19
  I really like him. He's such an intellectual.
• 36:20
  But he just mentioned this the other day where he said up until his 20s, he thought if I.
• 36:25
  Type of sock that I'll have a better day or I'll meet somebody.
• 36:28
  And I do believe that we probably all still have bits of this magical thinking.
• 36:33
  Oh, I still definitely do. Okay. Yeah. And there's parts of me that I'm like,
• 36:38
  I'm not letting that go. Oh, good. And that's what I'm going to say.
• 36:41
  Acceptance of that. Absolute acceptance of that, I think is one of the best
• 36:44
  things is it goes back to the first thing we talked about. It isn't bad.
• 36:47
  It's not, there's not a bad or good or an all or nothing or a black or white.
• 36:51
  I just want to say, oh that is it just is and we
• 36:54
  might even believe that it really does lead to
• 36:57
  magical outcomes and that's okay because who am i
• 37:00
  to tell somebody that that isn't true so i
• 37:03
  just like bringing awareness to this but what is fascinating about this is
• 37:06
  and this is where this made so much sense to me is that we're supposed to grow
• 37:10
  out of that to a point because we we have this like cause and effect relationship
• 37:14
  that is supposed to come to us as we emotionally mature but the cause of me
• 37:19
  not opening my mail has absolutely led to the effect of me paying late fees,
• 37:23
  but I have not done anything about it.
• 37:25
  So, I haven't, that cause and effect relationship hasn't been enough to cause
• 37:29
  me to become more emotionally mature on that.
• 37:31
  And I've even noticed that after I put this content together,
• 37:34
  I did deal with some things, some IRS things that I just kept kicking the can
• 37:39
  down the road. And it turned out they were worse than I had anticipated.
• 37:42
  So, then you don't even get the Disney movie version where, and it turned out it wasn't so bad.
• 37:47
  And I actually made money oh no it was worse but yeah it's part of being an adult apparently.
• 37:54
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we had to deal with all of that.
• 37:58
  Like, I still, like Steph was saying, I mean, I still have a lot of it.
• 38:01
  And I mean, honestly, Tony, the idea of like magical thinking is something that
• 38:06
  we have come to embrace at this point in our life from like this perspective
• 38:11
  of very much cultivating and creating that type of energy.
• 38:15
  Yeah. The innocence of childhood and leaning into it.
• 38:18
  And then also the missing component for us was the mature adult part of it,
• 38:23
  where like part of the reasons why in a healthy environment,
• 38:26
  the child can have magical thinking and live in fantasy because all of their
• 38:31
  other needs are being taken care of by healthy parents. Right.
• 38:35
  Yeah. They're in that space, like providing the safe container for that magic
• 38:39
  to exist. And I love that.
• 38:42
  And we just had to learn how to do both at the same time. So like we still live
• 38:47
  in this kind of like, I don't want to say a fantasy place, but like we were
• 38:51
  driving around. So we're in Tennessee, right?
• 38:53
  And one of the things that we did not expect when we moved here was lightning bugs.
• 38:58
  So there's fireflies. I was literally about to say lightning bugs because I
• 39:01
  grew up there and now I wish I would have because that would have been magical, right?
• 39:04
  Yeah. It's still magical. It's still magical, Tony. Like it's the time of year
• 39:07
  right now where they're coming out. So we're driving at night,
• 39:10
  we're coming home and we kind of live in the woods. And so suddenly it's like
• 39:13
  the whole woods are just lighting up with fireflies as you're driving along. It's beautiful.
• 39:18
  Like, it's amazing. And we're sitting there like we live in a magical forest.
• 39:21
  This is a magical fairy forest that we live in.
• 39:24
  The proof is evident all around us, right?
• 39:26
  Yeah. We're missing that component of the healthy, mature adult that is able
• 39:31
  to make sure that that child still has that safe container to play and to be a kid in.
• 39:36
  So that's the kind of part that we were that we were missing and that we've
• 39:40
  learned how to kind of cultivate. We're giving it to ourselves now.
• 39:42
  Yeah. We're like, damn right, it's a magical fairy forest.
• 39:45
  Exactly. But then if that magical fit, then if I was waiting for the fairy to
• 39:48
  come pay my taxes, that might be a little extreme.
• 39:51
  Yeah. Unless there's a fairy listening that would like to alleviate me of my taxes.
• 39:57
  Exactly. My tax debt. So I've been on two cruises in my entire life and I loved them both.
• 40:03
  You throw a little bit of Dramamine in me and suddenly I am floating through
• 40:06
  life with soft serve ice cream in one hand and absolutely no idea what day it is in the other.
• 40:12
  I guess you're not holding that in your hand, but regardless, it is a perfect reset.
• 40:16
  And I also absolutely love what I do as a therapist.
• 40:20
  So when you put me on a cruise with people who would like to talk about things
• 40:24
  like mental health or parenting or relationships or faith crisis or emotional
• 40:28
  immaturity or ADHD, that along with the soft serve is my dream vacation.
• 40:33
  So if you were to see me on one of these cruises and you have a question,
• 40:37
  you are absolutely not bugging me.
• 40:39
  And true, I'm diagnosing you, but it's in the most lovable way.
• 40:43
  Now that is why I am truly excited to be the special guest on the ICU Living
• 40:49
  Cruise, a five-night Western Caribbean cruise, January 24th through the 29th.
• 40:55
  2026, with my good friend and cruise mastermind, headliner, and I guess we could
• 41:00
  technically say maybe cruise director, Julie DeJesus.
• 41:04
  And this is honestly the best of all worlds because you're going to be able
• 41:08
  to get away from the day-to-day grind, connect with people who care about personal
• 41:12
  growth, mental health, all the things that really matter. Plus,
• 41:15
  again, you've got ice cream, lava cake.
• 41:18
  So whether you're working on your mental health or your relationship or looking
• 41:21
  to just boost your resilience or you just need an excuse to finally take a vacation,
• 41:26
  this cruise is exactly what you need.
• 41:28
  And parents, good news, kids set sail on this one for free so you don't even
• 41:33
  have to hunt down a babysitter.
• 41:34
  So go to julie-dejesus.com slash cruise, or you can look in the show notes of
• 41:41
  this podcast episode or in my link tree or anywhere to get all of the details.
• 41:45
  You can lock in your early bird special.
• 41:47
  You can reserve your spot for some exclusive dining and conversation with Julie and me.
• 41:51
  You can bring your spouse, bring a partner, your friends, any of your favorite
• 41:55
  overthinkers, or just bring yourself. We would love to have you there.
• 41:58
  And I skipped the whole, the biggest part of this magical
• 42:01
  thinking is because I have a one-year-old grandson now
• 42:04
  that is that's why we moved to Arizona where we did
• 42:07
  and in it this was around Easter
• 42:10
  when I was putting this stuff together and he really did do this thing
• 42:13
  where he had this big part of an egg and he put it over his
• 42:16
  face and it was the first time where he did the whole he disappeared like how
• 42:20
  cool was that right and then when he and then all of a sudden and we're feeding
• 42:22
  into it and that's my best that's the best kind of magical thinking where he's
• 42:26
  literally like oh my gosh I just disappeared these guys can't see me they're
• 42:29
  asking where I'm net and then I pulled this eggshell away and now they now apparently
• 42:33
  have appeared that's that is.
• 42:36
  Amazing right yes yes oh so so
• 42:39
  the magical thing and what I and I really like this idea of I
• 42:42
  can identify this one in so many areas of my life though and part of it is the
• 42:46
  I'll do it later at this point in my life that is magical because will I um
• 42:50
  if I remember right I'll get to it later and then poof well and I'm glad you
• 42:57
  brought that up that's right I think even on one of the those episodes I talked
• 42:59
  about the, well, I don't need to write it down.
• 43:02
  I now realize magical thinking because then it's just a crap shoot.
• 43:06
  If I happen to remember, so that one's difficult.
• 43:08
  This one is, this one's, this one is big. We're going to have fun with this
• 43:12
  one. I call it emotional reasoning. So children believe if I feel it, it must be true.
• 43:16
  So the classic is the kid saying, stop yelling at me.
• 43:20
  You know, you're not yelling, but they feel like you are yelling at them.
• 43:25
  It is true. Now you need to stop yelling at me.
• 43:28
  And what does the parent eventually do is I will show you yelling and then they will yell.
• 43:33
  Not our finest moments as parents. Now, as an adult, I feel abandoned.
• 43:37
  Therefore you are abandoning me, but that is something I feel.
• 43:42
  And so now, and I like to slow this one down so much because if I get this in
• 43:46
  the office and I am not even saying that there's not truth in this,
• 43:49
  but I think it's a great place to start from a, okay, check it out.
• 43:53
  I feel abandoned. Now I want, I believe you are the one that is abandoning me
• 43:58
  because if you look at it that way as adults, then it's basically saying,
• 44:02
  so I need you to make me feel better about a thing that I think that you're
• 44:05
  doing, but you are not on board that you are doing it.
• 44:11
  The reality is you might not be, but I don't feel good. So I need you to make
• 44:15
  me feel better about this thing. I think you're doing that you're not sure if you are.
• 44:18
  So start dancing. And then if you got a guy who has good old nice guy syndrome,
• 44:23
  or he doesn't want to get in trouble, or he's worried that if I don't get this
• 44:26
  right, then she'll never want to have sex with me.
• 44:29
  I mean, I see that one so often. and he's like okay i'll do
• 44:32
  whatever so now we're talking his energy's off he's not being
• 44:34
  authentic and most likely he's not
• 44:37
  going to know how to make her feel better and then she gets
• 44:40
  to say okay you obviously don't care about me and deep inside she's probably
• 44:44
  internalizing the man what is wrong with me am i unlovable so that is when i
• 44:48
  see so often and that i just want to say man bless both their hearts that game's
• 44:53
  rigged from an emotional maturity standpoint that one is not So,
• 44:56
  then that doesn't go well.
• 44:57
  So, now in comes the all kind of black or white thinking, man, I did it wrong.
• 45:01
  What was the right way that I should have done that when there wasn't a right
• 45:04
  way because the whole game was rigged?
• 45:06
  Or here comes magical thinking, well, let's go into our bunkers for a few days
• 45:10
  and then poke our heads out and say, hey, are we good? Yeah, we're good.
• 45:14
  And then we get to that point where that's just the absence of bad. That isn't good.
• 45:18
  And we do that long enough. And now you've got yourself a pretty crummy marriage
• 45:22
  because you're basically got
• 45:24
  two little five-year-olds that are trying to pretend that they're adults.
• 45:31
  Yeah, this one's hard for me because a big part of healing for me involved validating
• 45:38
  what I was feeling, making sure that what was coming up for me was being validated,
• 45:45
  was being legitimized, was being seen, was being heard, all of those things.
• 45:49
  But the recognition of, I mean, yes, beautiful, paint the perfect picture.
• 45:53
  We're so emotionally mature and healed that I'm doing all of that internal validation
• 45:58
  for myself. So I never need any of the external validation from somebody else.
• 46:02
  But that's just not the case.
• 46:03
  And I think even like in a perfectly healed version, I still don't think it's the case.
• 46:08
  I think there's some healthy validation that needs to take place externally.
• 46:12
  Like we need somebody to reflect back. I agree.
• 46:16
  Yeah. And that was a big thing. go ahead.
• 46:19
  Oh, well, I feel so bad. I, I should, if we were in the therapy office,
• 46:22
  I would want you to go all through this, but I worry at times that now it's
• 46:26
  somebody listening is going to start going into the yeah, buts.
• 46:29
  And so I want to rescue them for a brief second and say what Craig is saying
• 46:33
  is so spot on because in my part two, I came back around to this one because
• 46:37
  I'd gotten some feedback from somebody that said, Hey, how can you talk about
• 46:40
  making people feel so seen as highly sensitive people or empaths?
• 46:44
  And now you're saying, Oh, it's not real. And I thought, And oh my gosh.
• 46:47
  Literally the listener, bless their heart, went to the black or white,
• 46:52
  all or nothing thinking.
• 46:53
  Because what I was saying is, oh, start from this place of, and I said, please trust your gut.
• 46:59
  Please start from a place of, I'm going to listen to me, but just be aware that
• 47:03
  now I can understand that this is how I feel, 100% how I feel.
• 47:07
  But my immature version is, so it is true.
• 47:10
  So you need to fix it. And what I've had just some beautiful experiences with
• 47:14
  in the couple's field with this now is,
• 47:17
  and I've got one right now that's going to sound so simple and it is so beautiful,
• 47:20
  but a couple where the wife was saying something similar, I feel this way,
• 47:24
  therefore, I think you are doing it.
• 47:25
  We identified this version of immaturity. So then I was able to say,
• 47:30
  okay, so what would you need actually right now in order to feel like he cares in this scenario?
• 47:36
  And what I have found, the number one answer is she says, oh, I don't actually know.
• 47:41
  I just want him to make me feel better. And this was good because I've worked
• 47:47
  with this couple for quite a while. So then he didn't say, well, what am I supposed to do?
• 47:50
  Then he said, okay, I actually feel a little more validation here as well,
• 47:54
  because I've tried to just do things that I think might work.
• 48:00
  And then when they don't, I beat myself up. I can notice you pull away.
• 48:04
  So what is so cool about that is now I'm normalizing that, okay,
• 48:08
  this is beautiful. So, yeah, you don't know because their immature version of
• 48:12
  me just said, I don't know, just make it make me feel better. Parent, mom, dad.
• 48:16
  And so now we get to say, well, we can now just start.
• 48:20
  I mean, I don't want to say throwing noodles at the wall, but let's start somewhere now.
• 48:24
  And so they started with a simple, how about for the next week,
• 48:27
  just before you go to work, just come tell me that you're leaving and you love
• 48:32
  me and you're going to miss me.
• 48:34
  And he just said, oh, I can do that. So they did it. And again,
• 48:36
  what I love about this, it was a similar version of the tax conversation I was having earlier.
• 48:42
  They came back in, it was probably a couple of weeks later. And I said, how'd it go?
• 48:45
  And then they both said, it was okay, but it wasn't the, oh my gosh, Now we're so connected.
• 48:51
  And what is so good about that is they didn't even know what they needed.
• 48:56
  They didn't even know that she didn't even know that this was me kind of throwing
• 48:59
  an impossible task at him.
• 49:01
  And he didn't really, well, he felt like he understood that,
• 49:05
  oh, I can never get this right.
• 49:07
  And now they said, okay, now we're working on this together.
• 49:10
  Now we can try. And she had to have the courage to say, yeah,
• 49:14
  actually, that's not it.
• 49:15
  But thank you so much for showing up that way. And he had to have the courage also to say,
• 49:20
  okay, this, yeah, it isn't what I thought it would be because this gets into
• 49:23
  the immaturity of I'll be happy when, you know, if only in my relationship,
• 49:27
  he told me I love you and kissed me before he left every day, I bet you I'd be happy.
• 49:32
  And so then she can now think, well, we never got to that point.
• 49:35
  Well, now we did it. But you see now where they start growing together in an
• 49:40
  emotionally mature way where they realized, oh, maybe that wasn't it.
• 49:43
  But it wasn't like, okay, now what are we going to do? Now it's what's next. Let's figure this out.
• 49:47
  Tony, it's so fun. Go ahead. It's so fun talking to you because I'm like,
• 49:50
  baby, we're doing so good.
• 49:53
  It's just, it's also like the going back before, because there will be happy
• 49:56
  when is like, absolutely.
• 49:59
  Cause that was so much there, but to bring it back just a little bit and how
• 50:03
  important that is and realizing,
• 50:04
  oh, I don't even know because when we're going through a space and you had a
• 50:08
  childhood or however it happened where your needs were so invalidated and you
• 50:14
  weren't allowed to have needs.
• 50:16
  So you learned how to shut them off so significantly that when the smoke clears
• 50:22
  and you can like, oh, okay, what do I need? You literally have no idea.
• 50:26
  And so to get to that, where you start flexing that muscle and start practicing, it's almost exciting.
• 50:31
  It's like, I need a drink of water right now just to know what you actually need.
• 50:36
  And it's for you as opposed to, I need to know what I need to be so that you
• 50:42
  still love me, so that I'm safe, so that I'm still chosen, so that I'm not hurt,
• 50:47
  so that you don't abandon or abuse, like all of the ways that it can come up
• 50:51
  in that space to where your needs turn into what you can do for the other person
• 50:57
  as opposed to what you need.
• 50:58
  So that is such a crucial point to get somebody flexing that muscle of what
• 51:02
  do I actually need for me? What is that healthy space?
• 51:06
  I love that you can get them to that point. That's
• 51:09
  such an exciting space and I feel like such a
• 51:12
  close connection with that one especially and I
• 51:15
  feel like you might as well just because there was like my need I had no idea
• 51:18
  yeah I had no idea like taking care of your own needs as a child growing up
• 51:23
  all of your needs right physical emotional like even like coming home from school
• 51:27
  and nobody's home and you got to take care of what you're eating and all these
• 51:30
  kind of things yeah and then yeah
• 51:32
  Somebody asks you, especially when you get into the deeper space of like,
• 51:36
  when emotions start coming into play and learning how to regulate your nervous
• 51:40
  system. And it's like, well, what do I need?
• 51:42
  What do I need that's going to serve me and be healthy for me rather than all
• 51:46
  of these crappy coping mechanisms that I've used to satiate and satisfy and
• 51:51
  soothe myself? And it's like, well, I don't need those.
• 51:54
  I don't know what I actually do need. It's been an interesting thing that we've had to learn.
• 51:58
  And I love that you're bringing it up and highlighting it again.
• 52:00
  And I'm just like, cause you're, you're putting words to some of the things that I think we've done,
• 52:05
  not just subconsciously, but like in this ramshackle way of just trying to figure
• 52:10
  out how to do this thing together, trying to heal together. Do you know what I mean?
• 52:14
  Yeah. Well, what I like that you're saying that is, is it further,
• 52:17
  I think validates that it is here.
• 52:19
  I'm going to go all or nothing black or white. It is the right thing to do,
• 52:21
  but you start to see, and I love this concept.
• 52:23
  If somebody is spiritual, if they're religious, if, if you've got all roads
• 52:27
  lead to God or the universe or the great magnet or the creator or the all through
• 52:32
  life, all areas of psychology, discipline,
• 52:35
  meditation, yoga, we're all trying to figure out how to evolve or how to become our best selves.
• 52:41
  And you start seeing similarities in all the different teachings in different ways.
• 52:46
  And then there are people that are finding that, like you say,
• 52:48
  this ramshackle way on their own.
• 52:50
  And I just love this concept of when you start to see similar things,
• 52:54
  similar patterns in different disciplines then i
• 52:57
  think oh i think we're on to something i think this is part of that whole whatever
• 53:01
  collective consciousness or the all or we're gonna figure
• 53:04
  this stuff out and because i look at where we're at with emotions
• 53:07
  now and here we are some older people
• 53:10
  talking about we're figuring out our emotions now and i have
• 53:13
  to accept the fact that and i'm a therapist 20 years of this and i'm now understanding
• 53:17
  all emotions i got okay i got it and and teaching my kids now in my mind i think
• 53:22
  we're probably a couple generations still away from where it is It's just our
• 53:26
  emotions are welcome as a child because it's going to take work.
• 53:31
  Rather than intellectualizing everything and trying to think about everything,
• 53:34
  just the opportunity to express and feel and be in emotion.
• 53:38
  Yeah, and that's why I really am a book project about the emotional immaturity epidemic.
• 53:44
  And I think where the unfortunate part is, is you can see emotional immaturity
• 53:49
  and maybe currently the political climate or you see it, it does cause people
• 53:54
  to rise in the ranks in in some industries.
• 53:57
  And so the unfortunate part is I do think and maybe we can look at polarity
• 54:02
  here where we can see the extreme emotional immaturity.
• 54:04
  And that can also be our muse or mirror to help us understand that.
• 54:08
  And I think being able to see this is it helps me reflect better and be a better
• 54:13
  version of myself. But I hope that then being able to put words and examples
• 54:19
  and meaning to this, you can start to see, oh, that's just a little kid in a suit.
• 54:23
  That's needs control. And there, and then, and it actually, the next two that
• 54:28
  we're going to talk about external validation, dependence, and difficulty with accountability.
• 54:32
  Now, those are two, we're talking about this all or nothing,
• 54:34
  black or white thinking.
• 54:35
  And that one, if you have a different opinion than me, then you must think yours
• 54:40
  is right. And mine is wrong. I mean, that's at the core of so much of this.
• 54:43
  And now if you turn into that external validation dependence,
• 54:46
  kids need constant reassurance from their caregivers.
• 54:48
  So in adults, then it leads to excessive approval seeking, and then in difficulty
• 54:53
  maintaining any kind of worth without others telling you you're of worth.
• 54:57
  So if you already have this all or nothing black or white thinking,
• 55:00
  and then you need someone to tell you you're okay, and now we get into difficulty
• 55:05
  with accountability, kids instinctively protect themselves by denying responsibility.
• 55:09
  In adults, it manifests as blame shifting, gaslighting, defensiveness,
• 55:12
  and just an inability to offer apology, to take ownership of anything.
• 55:16
  So you start putting a big old combo pack of this together, And you can see
• 55:20
  where the more emotionally immature someone is, the more control that they can
• 55:24
  actually have in certain situations.
• 55:26
  And why when somebody then tries to push back against that person,
• 55:30
  then it just flares up even more with the immature because it's now you really
• 55:34
  think I'm wrong because you think you're right versus what if we just were both
• 55:39
  allowed to have our own thoughts and opinions?
• 55:41
  And then we could approach this with no one's let's say nobody's wrong currently.
• 55:45
  It just is and let's have
• 55:48
  a conversation about it and you can see maybe where there's just
• 55:51
  so many layers that are that are in the way with
• 55:54
  extreme emotional immaturity especially in adults who have power money status
• 56:00
  it's so difficult it makes me think about the like the content that we were
• 56:05
  talking at the beginning the one that that we were yeah i don't need to explain
• 56:08
  you know the piece of content that we were talking about the woman flipping cars right Yeah.
• 56:12
  Yeah. It's such a good example of like, everybody is in there arguing their point, me included.
• 56:18
  Like I'm in there as well, trying to be like, no, look at it this way.
• 56:21
  You're not seeing this part.
• 56:23
  I'm right. You're wrong. And they're like, no, I'm right. And you're wrong.
• 56:27
  And it's just this echo chamber back and forth of people essentially saying,
• 56:31
  and I think that that is like a really good example of what's taking place on
• 56:35
  a really big scale, right? Everybody thinks that they're right.
• 56:38
  And if I'm right, then that means that somebody else has to be wrong,
• 56:42
  as opposed to just existing in the space where that was a really big thing that
• 56:46
  we had to come to terms with,
• 56:47
  not just like internally within our relationship back and forth with each other,
• 56:51
  where we really saw it play out and we're still seeing it play out because it's
• 56:55
  a hard space for us, is when it comes to parenting,
• 56:59
  where there's definitely a parent that's right and there's definitely a parent that's wrong.
• 57:04
  And we both want to be on the side of the parent that's right.
• 57:07
  And we see our actions so clearly from that lens, which then we take the defensive
• 57:11
  point of view, which means, wait, if I'm right, then you must be wrong.
• 57:15
  Right. And that's our default.
• 57:16
  Yeah. And I think that's really programmable from childhood. I want to pause.
• 57:21
  I totally want to pause. I wanted some help on this one. It's one of the things
• 57:24
  that like came up with that and it's shifted as at first, just if you can help
• 57:29
  me unpack this one a little bit.
• 57:31
  And when you had the parent, one parent is right. One parent is wrong.
• 57:35
  When we got together, I wasn't thinking I was right. And you were wrong.
• 57:39
  I was thinking Craig was right. And I was wrong.
• 57:44
  Okay. Okay. Your way. Okay. Your way. And now Now I got to the point where I'm like, I was right.
• 57:50
  And so it's that thing of I went for the complete flip for a while.
• 57:54
  I'm like, no, I'm right. And you're wrong.
• 57:56
  And now we're working on the I'm right from my point of view.
• 58:00
  Yes. Not that I'm like the correct way, but what I'm feeling and what my and you are also.
• 58:06
  And it was the realization of like you said, like we're both coming from a space of love.
• 58:12
  But I just I want to speak to that part because there was so much invalidation
• 58:15
  of myself. And I didn't trust myself or my instincts or everything.
• 58:19
  I just thought whatever Craig said was the right way to do it, which also puts,
• 58:24
  fuck ton of pressure. It's much easier, much easier, babe. There's no pressure to get it right.
• 58:29
  And when you don't get it right, you know, it was like, well, what are you doing?
• 58:34
  You were supposed to get it right. You're the one that knows.
• 58:36
  So like, what is like, yeah.
• 58:39
  Okay. Such a good question and such good awareness there. And I will,
• 58:44
  shockingly, I will tangent a tiny bit.
• 58:46
  So now let's step into the, I hope a lot of people navigate a faith journey.
• 58:51
  Formerly known as faith crisis, also known as faith deconstruction, faith transition.
• 58:55
  And a lot of that comes from maybe we'll call it higher demand religion.
• 58:59
  So when those typically start with, there is a right way.
• 59:02
  So what does that insinuate? That everything else is the wrong way.
• 59:06
  The wrong way. And so then when you have a thought that doesn't go align,
• 59:10
  isn't aligned with the right way, then you are wrong, but you think it.
• 59:14
  So now I am bad because I think this thing that's not the right thing.
• 59:18
  So now let's introduce the concept of duality in adult human beings.
• 59:23
  I want to watch R-rated movies. I want to do things on a Sunday.
• 59:27
  I want to experiment with libations.
• 59:31
  Now we know that those are wrong.
• 59:33
  So I am bad, but I want to do them. So I'm going to do them. So I must hide them.
• 59:38
  And so then now all of a sudden I need to overcompensate because I want the
• 59:43
  external validation. I need people to think I'm good because I know I'm bad.
• 59:47
  So if I do these performative things, then I'll get the validation.
• 59:50
  And then I will know I must not be that bad because I'm getting the validation. So I'm good.
• 59:55
  Now enter your kids. Now your kids come in and now we understand.
• 59:59
  And this one breaks my heart because my kids are just being kids,
• 1:00:02
  but I want them to do it the right way because that'll make me look better.
• 1:00:05
  And it will also cover up the things that I'm doing that are bad.
• 1:00:08
  And so then as my, so I need to make sure my kids are doing the right thing
• 1:00:12
  well they want validation that kid gets their whole sense of self from external
• 1:00:15
  validation so they are also wanting to listen to certain music or wear certain
• 1:00:20
  clothing or whatever but they know it's bad.
• 1:00:22
  So they're bad and they want to do the right thing. And so you've got both adult
• 1:00:27
  and kid are neither one developing their own sense of self.
• 1:00:31
  And so what that so you can already we could talk about what that looks like.
• 1:00:36
  But I think what's so difficult there, too, is what it teaches over time is
• 1:00:40
  I also can get can shed my accountability because I'm trying to do the right thing.
• 1:00:46
  And if that person says that I'm doing now, enter in magical thinking.
• 1:00:49
  And this is where I think that I'll go with God, the universe, the creator there.
• 1:00:54
  I think they're going to be on board with me on this one, where if all of a
• 1:00:56
  sudden I'm saying, man, you know, I, why didn't I get that job?
• 1:01:00
  Or why did my, this person get angry with me?
• 1:01:03
  Cause I don't want to take ownership. I didn't do anything wrong.
• 1:01:05
  And so then it's like, man, God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why are you punishing me now?
• 1:01:09
  And I think God's up there going, Hey, that's not on me.
• 1:01:12
  Like I'm, you're good. And, you know, and in the spiritual realm,
• 1:01:16
  and then when I speak on this stuff, I talk about whether it's literal or figurative,
• 1:01:19
  if you look at the concept of differentiation, I'm going to say that the idea
• 1:01:22
  of God, the parent, again, the creator, the universe.
• 1:01:26
  Is got to be the most differentiated entity known to humankind because they're good.
• 1:01:31
  So then they are not getting enmeshed with, if I do my own thing,
• 1:01:36
  then they don't view them as a bad parent.
• 1:01:38
  And that's where if you look, I love this concept, whether in whatever spiritual
• 1:01:41
  realm you're looking at, where if the God you believe in is the same yesterday,
• 1:01:46
  today, and tomorrow, and their love is unconditional in the story.
• 1:01:49
  So now if I think they're mad at me, that's a me thing.
• 1:01:52
  They're up there going like, you're good. So even in, I was thinking about this
• 1:01:55
  recently in the concept in the Christian realm of repentance.
• 1:01:58
  I like the version of that that means turn to. So if I'm turning to a dad that's, you're good.
• 1:02:03
  And their love is unconditional it was the same yesterday today and
• 1:02:06
  tomorrow then it turns out i'm good i'm not
• 1:02:09
  doing it wrong and then i am beating myself up
• 1:02:12
  and then i'm turning to this secure attachment with the divine the divine that
• 1:02:17
  is always and i'll go all or nothing you're going to say you're good because
• 1:02:21
  what if that inherent goodness is within us and it turns out that our job is
• 1:02:24
  to just go through life and then unlock and unpack that because then we won't
• 1:02:28
  need people to tell us we're okay.
• 1:02:30
  We are okay. And anyway, that went a place I didn't think it would go.
• 1:02:35
  But anyway, I just love that concept so much. So to get back stuff at the,
• 1:02:38
  so now I think that I look at that as I call it in this document or in the podcast,
• 1:02:42
  poor emotional boundaries, because kids naturally merge their identity with their caregiver.
• 1:02:46
  So in the relationships, it manifests as taking responsibility for others' emotions
• 1:02:49
  or handing our emotions over to somebody else.
• 1:02:52
  And this one is so wild to me now because I have recognized,
• 1:02:56
  and this is one of those where you start sounding kind of like a jerk when you step away from it.
• 1:03:00
  But okay, how many times have we said things like, yeah, I didn't want to say
• 1:03:03
  this thing because I didn't want that person to feel bad. Or I didn't do this
• 1:03:06
  because I didn't want them to think that I was a certain way.
• 1:03:09
  So what I'm actually doing is I'm taking responsibility for their emotions.
• 1:03:12
  I have merged, you know, I have these poor emotional boundaries and I've merged
• 1:03:16
  my sense of self into someone else's.
• 1:03:18
  But there's a couple of things happening. One, I kind of, this is why I went on that one tangent.
• 1:03:22
  I actually then don't have to take ownership or accountability for my own emotions
• 1:03:25
  or my own life for that matter and also i'm not even letting that person have
• 1:03:30
  their own emotional experience so if i don't want my kid to feel bad so therefore
• 1:03:34
  i'm going to pay for all their things,
• 1:03:36
  They may become the world's greatest payer of things. They may be a financial
• 1:03:41
  wizard, but I am limiting that.
• 1:03:43
  I'm enabling the potentially negative behavior because I don't want to feel
• 1:03:48
  bad and I don't want them to think that I don't care. I will rest my case.
• 1:03:55
  Yeah. Building a lot of resentments, hindering and avoiding accountability.
• 1:04:02
  Yeah. Yeah. And then so when you're like, oh, he is right.
• 1:04:04
  I worry sometimes that that is the and I probably need to come up with better
• 1:04:08
  positive words and poor emotional boundaries, but challenging emotional boundaries,
• 1:04:13
  because that's one that I think that we learned to fold into other people,
• 1:04:17
  because if I think that I'm probably wrong,
• 1:04:19
  and that's why I was going back to this, there is a right way and a wrong way.
• 1:04:22
  If I'm used to thinking my own way, but I know it's wrong, then I'm going to
• 1:04:26
  default to the way that the person that seems more confident or whatever that looks like thinks.
• 1:04:32
  And I shift that. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm going to do it again.
• 1:04:35
  Like I've shifted. I've caught that now. And I have a practice.
• 1:04:38
  You've talked about the pause is when I'm feeling a really strong emotional charge.
• 1:04:42
  And this is like something and we talk about it.
• 1:04:45
  It's not always like, hey, let's sit down and talk. We debate about it. We argue about it.
• 1:04:50
  And then we get to that point. when I start to feel like he is right in this
• 1:04:56
  space, like sometimes he feels like I'm, or we come to this space,
• 1:04:59
  this middle ground where neither is right or wrong.
• 1:05:01
  We just understand where the other person was coming from and we see that.
• 1:05:05
  But if I start to feel that, then I check myself.
• 1:05:08
  And I'm like, even if you're right, I need to regulate, even if you're right.
• 1:05:13
  Because I can't go to that. That's what I used to do.
• 1:05:15
  So I'll have to get to my own space and be calm and then find that. is it's okay to be wrong.
• 1:05:22
  I'm fine with, but I'm very cautious about jumping to making myself wrong now. Yeah.
• 1:05:27
  And so I give myself the time to make sure, okay.
• 1:05:30
  I'm not, I'm not gaslighting myself and invalidating.
• 1:05:35
  Yeah. There's, it's such a interesting dance learning how to do all this.
• 1:05:40
  And I would love your, I would love your guys. I trust you.
• 1:05:43
  You're yeah, but I really currently, and I also, I think that life has this
• 1:05:46
  whole pendulum effect. So I go from overly kind and nice guy to then it's almost
• 1:05:51
  like you have to go all the way over here to, Oh, I don't care.
• 1:05:54
  The kind of like a jerk, then you're going to find the middle ground of calm confidence.
• 1:05:57
  And I think that is happening in most everything. so many
• 1:06:00
  things so i am currently in this place of oh even
• 1:06:03
  when somebody says and it's okay i realized i was wrong i don't
• 1:06:06
  i personally still don't i don't want that energy
• 1:06:10
  or it's just it just oh that was where i was at or
• 1:06:13
  that was the way that i viewed things and now i'm able to take a different view
• 1:06:17
  or a different approach because i think that that right the wrong the word wrong
• 1:06:20
  still implies that something is wrong with me or i was doing it the wrong way
• 1:06:25
  but this is where i go back to the acceptance and commitment therapy stuff where
• 1:06:29
  I am the only me ever that has walked the face of the earth.
• 1:06:32
  And the amount of variables that go into every single moment as me is mind blowing.
• 1:06:36
  Nature, nurture, birth order, DNA, abandonment, rejection, hopes, fears, dreams.
• 1:06:40
  You've got to go to the bathroom before a podcast starts, you name it.
• 1:06:42
  All that stuff is at play, hypothetically.
• 1:06:44
  And so that's what makes me me. And that's what makes me feel the way I do and think the way I do.
• 1:06:48
  So I'm still, I'm of the mindset that I will stay on this pendulum swing of,
• 1:06:51
  so it isn't wrong. It just is.
• 1:06:53
  But this is where I've been talking lately. When I go back this
• 1:06:56
  concept of different differentiation is my job in life is to
• 1:06:59
  interact with other humans to learn about myself i can maintain connection
• 1:07:02
  i'm going to learn about my autonomy is i want people to go from i don't know
• 1:07:06
  what if they started from like a 30 solid 70 flexible sense of self where i
• 1:07:10
  need everybody to tell me what to do where now i want i want to i've been telling
• 1:07:14
  my clients lately i want this formula to be more like 90 solid 10 flexible self so i'm good.
• 1:07:20
  I'm good but at 10 i'm gonna leave 10 open because i
• 1:07:23
  want to be the best me i want to be able to self-confront so then
• 1:07:26
  when somebody's saying i think this then i'm like going to
• 1:07:28
  start from a place of i'm good because i am me
• 1:07:31
  and this is the way i think and feel and it's the first time it's me literally
• 1:07:34
  right now so it just is i'm not broken i am a
• 1:07:37
  human being and so then but i'm leaving 10 open to
• 1:07:40
  then say that is a very good point so i'm going to take
• 1:07:43
  that data and i'm going to i'm going to take a look at that because i'm
• 1:07:46
  going to and there's a potential i may integrate what your view is
• 1:07:49
  or and that's where that takes some maturity because I
• 1:07:53
  think it has to come from a place that there isn't a right or wrong but
• 1:07:56
  I want to know you and I want you to know me and then through that interaction
• 1:08:00
  I may learn that I am even more solid with my thought on this or I might integrate
• 1:08:07
  some of your thoughts on there and then I am so grateful for our shared experience
• 1:08:12
  and now I want to find more.
• 1:08:14
  I would argue that this, like what we're talking about right now,
• 1:08:18
  this is the thing that was in some ways one of the hardest things that we had
• 1:08:22
  to learn how to do in our relationship, but it also came with the biggest benefit,
• 1:08:27
  like being able to just take right and wrong off the table and no longer look at it from that lens.
• 1:08:32
  And now it's just looking at it from the lens and the perspective of like,
• 1:08:35
  I want to hear what you are feeling.
• 1:08:37
  I want to hear what you're experiencing. I want to see the world through your eyes.
• 1:08:42
  So that I have a better understanding of who you are. And that has nothing to
• 1:08:47
  do with a decision-making process of who's going to make the right decision
• 1:08:51
  here, who's going to make the wrong decision.
• 1:08:53
  It's more of just, I want to know how you tick. I want to know how you work.
• 1:08:56
  I want to know how you feel. I want to know how you think.
• 1:08:58
  I really want to learn about you. And that has been like...
• 1:09:03
  As we're sitting here talking about it and i've been thinking about it i'm like
• 1:09:05
  it was one of the hardest things for us to do and i
• 1:09:09
  think it just gave us the biggest like it helped our
• 1:09:12
  relationship so much it brought us closer together it
• 1:09:15
  really cultivated and created the bond that we really have today because we
• 1:09:19
  got rid of that idea that like my way or the highway do you know what i mean
• 1:09:23
  it's like i honestly i don't know what i'm doing over here 90 of the time and
• 1:09:28
  you know so yeah i think that it's really been a huge deal for us.
• 1:09:32
  I'm glad that we're talking about it. I'm really grateful.
• 1:09:35
  And it sounds, and that is, and that's real intimacy, the courage to know somebody
• 1:09:39
  and the courage to be known.
• 1:09:40
  I think we talked about that the first time I came on here and what I love about it.
• 1:09:44
  And I'm writing a lot now about an upcoming episode on curiosity and genuine
• 1:09:48
  curiosity, because already I think people don't have enough curiosity.
• 1:09:52
  And then when they do start to be curious, it's basically this,
• 1:09:54
  Hey, why are you being so dumb?
• 1:09:56
  Well, it is a question. Technically I'm being curious, but it needs to be,
• 1:10:00
  tell me about you, help me understand.
• 1:10:02
  I want to know more, but it can't be with this little subtle part of you that
• 1:10:07
  is ready to then, okay, see, that's where you're wrong.
• 1:10:10
  Or, but I don't think that's the right way to do it because then now I'm not
• 1:10:14
  going to feel safe opening up to that person anymore, unless I become the most
• 1:10:17
  differentiated human, which is possible because then when they're saying,
• 1:10:21
  well, I think you're wrong, then I'm like, check in. I'm good.
• 1:10:24
  And then I can say, well, tell me more about why you think I'm wrong.
• 1:10:27
  Because I'm good, but I do want to understand.
• 1:10:29
  But you'll typically find that if you are in that position, that person is not
• 1:10:34
  saying, oh, well, let me do some self-confrontation.
• 1:10:37
  No, because they're doing this poor emotional boundaries.
• 1:10:39
  They're saying, but I need you to know you're wrong because then that will help
• 1:10:42
  me feel better. That means I'm right. We go right back to the black or white
• 1:10:45
  thinking, the all or nothing.
• 1:10:47
  These are so good, Tony. Yeah, these are so, so good. Tell me more.
• 1:10:50
  That was our gateway, I feel, way back when.
• 1:10:53
  Because you didn't have to be emotionally right you didn't have to like have
• 1:10:56
  all these things it was just you would say that I would say that it was thick
• 1:11:00
  of sometimes like even tell me more internally you're having all of those parts
• 1:11:04
  that's like fuck this I don't know what she said.
• 1:11:09
  Externally I'm just like,
• 1:11:11
  Tell me more. I'm just doing my best to hear you and listen more and more and more.
• 1:11:15
  So good. Well, and I think that'll lead into, and I had a, in this document
• 1:11:20
  I can share, I had the, well, this next one I'll do, that was all the ones I covered.
• 1:11:24
  And then in the next episode, I covered several more, but I think these are
• 1:11:27
  the basis of so much of our immaturity, the way that we show up.
• 1:11:30
  But this one I think is so fascinating. It's mind reading.
• 1:11:32
  I mean, it is children assume others see the world exactly as they do.
• 1:11:35
  So then adults pattern this by assuming our partner's intentions.
• 1:11:39
  And that's, I see that so often. Well, obviously, this is what you meant.
• 1:11:42
  Well, of course, everybody knows this. And what is so interesting there is it
• 1:11:47
  goes back into, I, and this is when I talk about my four pillars,
• 1:11:50
  I've got a pre-pillar, which is from Marshall Rosenberg's book,
• 1:11:53
  Nonviolent Communication.
• 1:11:54
  And it's the separating observation from judgment, because I am observing you
• 1:11:59
  doing this and I'm making a judgment.
• 1:12:00
  And so once we do that, now, if I say, I want to know you, but I've already
• 1:12:05
  made a judgment on what I'm observing, then if you don't tell me exactly what,
• 1:12:11
  validate what I think you're doing, then I can also say you're not even being honest with yourself.
• 1:12:15
  And so this mind reading, somebody gets home and they're angry and then they
• 1:12:20
  walk past their partner and they don't say anything.
• 1:12:23
  That partner gets to say, okay, well, obviously they don't care.
• 1:12:26
  And so now they can shut down. They can tell themselves or they can come into
• 1:12:30
  the therapy office and say,
• 1:12:32
  well, what am i supposed to do everybody knows that when you come home you say
• 1:12:35
  hi everybody knows that it's obvious so they should
• 1:12:38
  be reading my mind and know that i am hurt now and then that person is thinking
• 1:12:41
  okay everybody knows if the universal sign for if you come in and you're angry
• 1:12:45
  that you need some time to cool off or everybody knows that you need to go say
• 1:12:49
  to them hey what's going on so we just have these expectations that we can read
• 1:12:53
  each other's minds we all think the same way and boy we don't.
• 1:12:57
  Do you know what's so funny? Like emotional maturity, everything you're describing,
• 1:13:02
  like the opposite side of all of these things is kind of just like really basic,
• 1:13:07
  easy, rational way of looking.
• 1:13:09
  Like it's just giving everybody the benefit of the doubt.
• 1:13:12
  You're self-included. Do you know what I mean? It's like, sometimes we make mistakes.
• 1:13:16
  Sometimes these things happen. Like we're all just human. It's all just really
• 1:13:19
  rational stuff of once we get down to actually listening and understanding one
• 1:13:24
  another, you're like, oh, that makes total sense why you thought that.
• 1:13:26
  It does. total sense why you would feel that way.
• 1:13:29
  You know what I mean? That happens. So we had one last night when we were preparing.
• 1:13:32
  So we went to bed last night. We've been staying up later and later recently
• 1:13:36
  for whatever reason, like our sleep schedule is getting different.
• 1:13:39
  And the night before that we had, we were drinking some tea and it had like
• 1:13:44
  valerian root in it or something like that. So it put us to sleep almost immediately.
• 1:13:48
  And I woke up the next day and I was kind of groggy and took us,
• 1:13:50
  the morning was a little bit slower for me.
• 1:13:52
  And I didn't want that to happen And this morning for this interview,
• 1:13:56
  I wanted to be more fresh and more awake.
• 1:13:58
  So last night, Steph, do you want some more tea? And I'm like,
• 1:14:00
  no. And I brushed her off in response to it.
• 1:14:03
  No, because we're going to bed. Yeah, no, we're going to bed.
• 1:14:06
  And then I went back out into the kitchen and I had a little snack.
• 1:14:09
  And she's like, what are you doing?
• 1:14:10
  Like, you said that we were going to bed and you just said no. And I'm like.
• 1:14:14
  That's because I didn't want the tea. Like as soon as I explained it to her,
• 1:14:16
  she's like, oh, that makes total sense.
• 1:14:18
  And at first I heard, and I'm in this phase right now where I'm really looking.
• 1:14:23
  Anyway, I'm going through some stuff and it's bringing out little me.
• 1:14:26
  So we keep acknowledging it. He's like, why did you think that?
• 1:14:28
  I'm like, because I'm two.
• 1:14:29
  I'm two right now. You know, I'm really like carrying this.
• 1:14:33
  But then it was like, what I heard is no, we couldn't do this thing together that I love doing that.
• 1:14:38
  We have this because we're going to bed because we have to get up early.
• 1:14:41
  And then you said no you didn't want to do this thing with me and it wasn't
• 1:14:46
  true about going to bed because then you just wanted to be and so i just made
• 1:14:49
  it like i i took it from this very.
• 1:14:53
  Childlike perspective of you don't like me you don't want to be i you know i
• 1:14:56
  understand how much i blew that out of the proportion but that's what i was
• 1:15:00
  feeling you don't like me you don't want to be around me you don't want to spend
• 1:15:04
  time with me and you just lie to me so now i'm not I'm safe and I don't know what's all of this.
• 1:15:09
  And he's, I just didn't want the tea. Yeah, Craig just didn't want to get sleepy.
• 1:15:12
  I love it. I love it. And I think that being, and it kind of goes back to that.
• 1:15:15
  We can check off so many of these in a good way.
• 1:15:18
  And the mind reading expectations or the emotional reasoning,
• 1:15:22
  I felt that. So obviously it's true and he should know.
• 1:15:25
  And there's a way to do it and not a way to do it. And that's why,
• 1:15:28
  and I worry a bit because I had a client say that it all feels overwhelming.
• 1:15:32
  And then I even said, okay, well, that's, we're back to, you think you're going
• 1:15:35
  to be doing it the wrong way. And I hope that as people start to hear these
• 1:15:40
  things that they can just recognize, okay, and I like this so much.
• 1:15:43
  I don't know the things I don't know. I think that is such a powerful concept.
• 1:15:47
  And the things I have learned, I used to not know.
• 1:15:49
  So this becomes more of those things that I didn't know. And now I know.
• 1:15:53
  And I think that over time, it gets to be exciting. I think of,
• 1:15:57
  well, what else is there that I don't know? I can't wait to know.
• 1:16:00
  And if I think that I have to master these and know all these,
• 1:16:04
  I'm right back to the, oh, I'm doing it the wrong way. or it's all or nothing or it's black or white.
• 1:16:09
  There's something in there. Like when we started down this path several years
• 1:16:12
  ago, and I was thinking about looking at myself through that lens of being emotionally
• 1:16:16
  immature, that immediately brings up judgment inside of me where I'm like,
• 1:16:21
  no, I'm not like I'm defensive to that term very much.
• 1:16:24
  Like growing up, it was like, well, you're just immature.
• 1:16:26
  It's this thing of you're not grown up enough. You don't really know.
• 1:16:29
  Like you're stupid. Right. We were told that forever. Very much.
• 1:16:33
  Like the reframe of like less because i
• 1:16:37
  was i still sit with that like the term emotional immaturity
• 1:16:40
  or emotional maturity as somehow
• 1:16:43
  like better than as opposed to just the learning process i like that like it's
• 1:16:48
  really easy to think about how we have to learn things we have to learn how
• 1:16:51
  to read we have to learn how to tie our shoes we have to learn things like we're
• 1:16:55
  all okay with that concept and idea intellectually having to learn things and
• 1:16:59
  i think emotional health is the exact same thing. It's something that we have to learn.
• 1:17:04
  We have to be taught it. We have to learn it. We have to absorb it.
• 1:17:06
  And looking at it through that lens rather than some sort of lack where this is, you know, I'm 40,
• 1:17:12
  I'm 44 years old and I'm still immature emotionally, as opposed to just,
• 1:17:17
  well, I haven't learned all the things that I need to learn emotionally. So I'm 55.
• 1:17:22
  And again, I would like to say I'm a 55 year old therapist for 20 years now
• 1:17:26
  with adult kids podcast.
• 1:17:28
  One would maybe think that I've got things figured out.
• 1:17:31
  And I love to be able to say with certainty, oh, I don't. But I don't I don't think that's the goal.
• 1:17:38
  I think it's to just continue to figure things out.
• 1:17:40
  And I do call it your own individualized customized treatment plan.
• 1:17:43
  I love acceptance and commitment therapy, the nurtured heart parenting,
• 1:17:46
  my beloved four pillars, differentiation.
• 1:17:48
  I'm going to go big on emotional immaturity, valor stages of faith.
• 1:17:52
  I found the things that really have helped me make sense of things.
• 1:17:55
  And so I am presenting them to the world. Now, if everybody does exactly all
• 1:17:58
  the things I do, then apparently I am right. So that helps, right?
• 1:18:01
  We're all going through it for the first time. And so we're going to pick up
• 1:18:04
  things from this person and this person.
• 1:18:06
  And I will say I have one of my favorite clients of all time.
• 1:18:09
  A few weeks ago, I brought to her this, all the immaturity stuff.
• 1:18:12
  And I was giddy. She was in the session.
• 1:18:14
  Her husband was in there. And I'm saying, isn't this cool? And I love the fact
• 1:18:18
  that she said, don't take this the wrong way, which what I love,
• 1:18:21
  by the way, is I don't think I can take anything the wrong way anymore.
• 1:18:23
  I think it's been quite a while because even from a differentiation lens,
• 1:18:26
  it's a, ooh, all right, this will be interesting.
• 1:18:29
  Tell me the things that I should take the wrong way. And I'm like,
• 1:18:31
  oh, I'm good. So I love that practice in and of itself.
• 1:18:33
  But then she said, when we started working with you, we got some four pillars.
• 1:18:37
  We got the need for validation. We start talking about differentiation.
• 1:18:41
  Now you're bringing all this immaturity stuff. And she said,
• 1:18:43
  when will you have it all figured out? And I just said, oh, never.
• 1:18:47
  Isn't that exciting? And that's where I went down this whole path of that.
• 1:18:50
  I don't know what I don't know.
• 1:18:51
  And so I can't wait to know more. And I always have this squishy thought of
• 1:18:54
  what's coming next. I really still think I'm going to learn a lot more about
• 1:18:57
  internal family systems.
• 1:18:58
  I think I know some about it. I think that I need to learn so much more about yoga.
• 1:19:03
  As I understand, I've got a couple of clients that are.
• 1:19:05
  Huge yoga enthusiasts there are so many things
• 1:19:08
  i cannot wait to know more about and i think that that becomes
• 1:19:11
  the journey of life and i've even the older
• 1:19:14
  we get i think we were talking about this earlier in time passing
• 1:19:17
  and i am somewhat becoming obsessed with
• 1:19:20
  how do i stay sharp the older i get and so i
• 1:19:23
  read a lot about the people as the population ages
• 1:19:26
  and i'm and i cherry pick articles that make me feel better
• 1:19:29
  but i found some good ones that say if you continue to learn
• 1:19:32
  have a sense of purpose that how much more you
• 1:19:35
  will be present and active and young and your mind will
• 1:19:38
  stay sharp and so i don't ever want to
• 1:19:41
  stop this stuff i don't think there's an end yeah i totally
• 1:19:44
  agree wasn't there something babe that you like i can't remember if you brought
• 1:19:48
  it up or i don't remember where i heard it but it was something like when you
• 1:19:51
  push yourself to do the hard things so like when there's the thing that you
• 1:19:54
  don't want to do but then you do it anyways and i'm not talking about like detrimental
• 1:19:58
  abuse of you know not violating your boundaries Yeah, not things that are hurtful to us in a sense.
• 1:20:02
  Things that are good for you that you know, and you just don't put forth that
• 1:20:05
  effort for yourself where it's going to be too hard.
• 1:20:07
  There's something neurologically in that space that helped with brain development
• 1:20:11
  and brain growth and things like that, where if you push yourself to do the
• 1:20:15
  thing that you don't want to do it continually, isn't that right? It builds your brain.
• 1:20:18
  Builds your brain. Yeah, it expands that part.
• 1:20:21
  And so you start to get better at it.
• 1:20:24
  And it's that thing too. with. So you have to keep finding that thing to push
• 1:20:27
  yourself. Cause once you get good at doing this thing and it's no longer hard,
• 1:20:30
  it's not working that same muscle.
• 1:20:32
  And it's not about that. Like you're going to hear that and be like,
• 1:20:35
  all right, I'll ultra marathon, you know, you don't have to like.
• 1:20:39
  Do you go to, or maybe if you like that, do it. I'm not saying not to do that,
• 1:20:43
  but it's like, once you find that edge, you can like to keep building,
• 1:20:49
  find something else. And it's, it's a rewarding thing too.
• 1:20:52
  It's also like you, you like what you're learning, but you just push yourself
• 1:20:56
  a little more than you would in that.
• 1:20:59
  I'm getting it wrong. It's okay. I'm getting it right.
• 1:21:03
  It's that flexing that muscle because you are actually helping yourself and
• 1:21:07
  you're actually loving yourself in that space when you're putting forth the effort for yourself.
• 1:21:13
  And that can be incredibly hard. Like it might be saying, no,
• 1:21:16
  I don't want tea when I'm going to bed right now, which has got to be scary
• 1:21:21
  on that space because your wife might think you don't love her anymore. Right.
• 1:21:25
  Yeah. Great. And so it's just these little things because it's building that
• 1:21:29
  brain, it's building that confidence and it's building that cognition muscle as well.
• 1:21:33
  And you're tapping in, it's setting new neurons that are going.
• 1:21:36
  So it's a, it's a healthy space.
• 1:21:38
  Yeah. And the book ADHD 2.0 of all things, which is, I look at that as a holy scripture.
• 1:21:43
  There's a great chapter in there about the neuroplasticity of the brain and
• 1:21:47
  how that the fixed brain mindset is, has been so debunked. You can teach an old dog new tricks.
• 1:21:52
  And so the constant learning, I think you're spot on stuff.
• 1:21:56
  And I, I love in the book and I'm not a big bibliotherapist.
• 1:22:00
  So this is making me sound like, Oh, I could quote things all day,
• 1:22:03
  but I I just have a few go-to that I love.
• 1:22:05
  But Buddha's Brain, this book by Rick Hansen, that's where I learned this concept
• 1:22:08
  of the mechanisms of memory, but even more so what an implicit memory is,
• 1:22:12
  which he says is implicit memory or what it feels like to be you is based on
• 1:22:16
  the slow residue of your lived experience.
• 1:22:18
  So I think the more that we are doing of whatever it is, then it just becomes.
• 1:22:23
  So if I am a seeker of knowledge, if I am someone that is going to continue
• 1:22:27
  to push myself, it just eventually becomes what it feels like to be me.
• 1:22:30
  And I worry and it breaks my heart when people are continually ruminating,
• 1:22:36
  overthinking, worrying, because over time.
• 1:22:39
  And what it feels like to be that person or their implicit memory built on their
• 1:22:42
  slow residue of lived experience is they are one who overthinks and ruminates and worries.
• 1:22:49
  And I do not have data to back it up, but I just, it makes sense to me.
• 1:22:52
  That is what is going to keep me alive mentally is I worry that when people
• 1:22:57
  are worrying and overthinking and ruminating, that is how they are spending
• 1:23:01
  their emotional calories.
• 1:23:02
  And over time, that is what they do. And then when somebody is trying to get
• 1:23:06
  to know them, they're just going to hear a lot of that.
• 1:23:08
  But I worry about and I don't think you understand. And but what if and over
• 1:23:12
  time, if somebody is on their journey that is much different than that,
• 1:23:16
  then that won't necessarily be a person that they will feel as connected to.
• 1:23:21
  And that can be really difficult. Yeah.
• 1:23:24
  Tony, this has been so fun. This has been so cool. We love when you come on
• 1:23:28
  the podcast. I was excited about this. I think it's a great conversation.
• 1:23:31
  Emotional maturity, immaturity. I do think that it's the, like,
• 1:23:35
  if we look at society as a whole, I think it's the thing that we are all really
• 1:23:39
  needing to take an honest,
• 1:23:42
  no bullshit look at and recognize and start taking accountability before.
• 1:23:46
  And you've laid out a bunch of things I love so perfectly.
• 1:23:50
  The things to, okay, well, if I'm in this space, If it's black or white thinking,
• 1:23:54
  if I'm in the magical thinking, if I'm, you know, all of these,
• 1:23:56
  all of this stuff is very much stemming from that place.
• 1:23:59
  It's such a good foundation to start from.
• 1:24:01
  So I love it. This has been awesome. Once again, I love that I had the space
• 1:24:04
  to go through all this because I think the last time I was on,
• 1:24:08
  I maybe had shared with you guys, I used the first experiences.
• 1:24:11
  It's one of my, it's in my canon that I send to new clients.
• 1:24:14
  And I think this will be one I can't wait to share as well, because I appreciate
• 1:24:17
  you guys giving me the space and the energy and the fun times to work through
• 1:24:22
  or go through all these and that kind of detail. So I can't wait to share this with everybody too.
• 1:24:26
  That's so awesome. What's the, uh, do you have a website? You've got a website, don't you? Yeah.
• 1:24:32
  Tony overbay.com and then, or at the virtual couch on Tik TOK or at virtual.couch on Instagram.
• 1:24:38
  And I would love to say that in the not too distant future, I am working on
• 1:24:43
  a little bit of a course on emotional maturity and emotional maturity.
• 1:24:47
  And I do have a book that I'm trying to put together and, but I'm good at,
• 1:24:52
  that's my magical thinking.
• 1:24:53
  There are a lot of times where I've said, I'm going to do this and then I mean
• 1:24:56
  it in the moment and then I don't do it.
• 1:24:58
  But I think this is a, this is something that I just, so it's been just simmering for so long.
• 1:25:03
  And then it just finally all makes a lot more sense and it's coming together.
• 1:25:07
  And then I don't know if it just needed to wait until we are seeing all the
• 1:25:11
  things we're seeing in the world. But I think we need to just first start from
• 1:25:14
  a place of awareness of what emotional maturity looks like.
• 1:25:16
  So I want to be, I want to be on the forefront of that.
• 1:25:19
  I want, here's where I want to manifest and make it known that I want to speak to groups on this.
• 1:25:23
  I want to help people with this. I want to put a lot of content out about this
• 1:25:27
  because you can hear it and say, that's a good idea, but this is something I've
• 1:25:31
  been living for so long and trying to help people recognize, understand, be.
• 1:25:36
  And so I just think that we're just at the beginning of figuring out what to
• 1:25:40
  do with our emotional immaturity.
• 1:25:41
  And I think it will definitely change dynamics, relationships. And so why not the world?
• 1:25:46
  Yeah, there we go. I think it's the missing key. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:25:50
  So thank you guys. Can't wait to have you come on my podcast next.
• 1:25:52
  I'm enjoying the home and away stuff, right? Absolutely. Yes.
• 1:25:57
  Let's wrap up, baby. Okay. Thank you so much. Expect the best. Plan for the greatest.
• 1:26:04
  Hey, everybody, let me take a quick minute to talk to the guys who are listening to this episode.
• 1:26:10
  I want to really hone in on the guys who are starting to wake up to the fact
• 1:26:13
  that something in your life just isn't quite right.
• 1:26:16
  Let me ask you this. have you ever caught yourself thinking things are going to get better?
• 1:26:20
  Things will be better when the kids grow up or when you get in better shape
• 1:26:24
  or when you get the promotion or when you finally have a little more time or
• 1:26:27
  after you finish all eight seasons of this Netflix show that you are invested in.
• 1:26:32
  That is magical thinking. It'll get better later.
• 1:26:36
  And that's what gets people to
• 1:26:38
  this place where they feel like they're not living their very best life.
• 1:26:42
  So welcome to later. It is now later. It is time to do something about it.
• 1:26:47
  Yeah, your life maybe isn't playing out the way that you thought it would and you don't know why.
• 1:26:51
  Or maybe you think that you do, but nothing that you try seems to work or it
• 1:26:55
  actually seems to make things worse.
• 1:26:56
  And now you're stuck kicking the can down the road. And at this point,
• 1:26:58
  you've kicked that can so far down the road that you might qualify for a Guinness
• 1:27:03
  world record in emotional deflection. But here is the truth.
• 1:27:06
  It is time to stop letting your job, your marriage, your bank account,
• 1:27:09
  your kids, your fear, your ego dictate how you show up in your own life.
• 1:27:14
  I have been fortunate to work with men from all walks of life,
• 1:27:17
  athletes and politicians and doctors and lawyers and engineers and salesmen, you name it.
• 1:27:21
  And the truth is, our struggles are far more alike than you think.
• 1:27:25
  The key is not getting older or wealthier or more shredded at the gym.
• 1:27:30
  It's admitting that you need help. Now, this may sound like a riddle,
• 1:27:34
  but I promise you it's not because I'm actually not a very big fan of riddles.
• 1:27:37
  So hear me out. You don't know what you don't know. And that's OK,
• 1:27:40
  because how could you know what you don't know? And the things that you've learned
• 1:27:43
  in your life up to this point were also things that you did not know until you learned them.
• 1:27:48
  So it would only make sense that as you continue on life's path as a human,
• 1:27:52
  there is a lot more to learn. That can be an awesome thing.
• 1:27:56
  But for some reason, men in particular have a tough time admitting or understanding this.
• 1:28:01
  But it is the key to the next phase of your life. And I can guide you down that
• 1:28:04
  path because real change doesn't come from chasing more. It comes from learning
• 1:28:07
  to look inward and confronting something inside of you that I promise you,
• 1:28:11
  you're probably not even aware of.
• 1:28:13
  So that is where my emotional architects men's group comes in.
• 1:28:17
  I promise that I do have the tools.
• 1:28:19
  You just have to show up, whether it's business, marriage, parenting,
• 1:28:22
  intimacy, health, finances, or friendships.
• 1:28:24
  The root of most of our struggles as men in particular is emotional immaturity. And guess what?
• 1:28:29
  We are all emotionally immature. But when you learn what it is,
• 1:28:33
  when you learn what it looks like, how it shows up in all the areas of your
• 1:28:35
  life, when you learn how to embrace it instead of running from it,
• 1:28:38
  everything starts to shift.
• 1:28:41
  So for less than the cost of one therapy session a month, you will get access
• 1:28:44
  to two group calls a month with like-minded men, guys who are ready to grow,
• 1:28:48
  with a clear, well-crafted roadmap that teaches you the things that you didn't
• 1:28:52
  even know that you were missing, as well as you'll have one-on-one access to yours truly.
• 1:28:56
  That's me. And a place to ask every question you've ever wanted answered.
• 1:29:00
  You name it, we'll answer it.
• 1:29:02
  So if you have been waiting for some sort of a sign, well, this is it.
• 1:29:05
  So go to tonyoverbay.com or email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com and ask about
• 1:29:10
  the Men's Emotional Architects group. Later is today.
• 1:29:13
  And character transforming, life-altering change is ready and waiting for you.