Latest / Just What I Needed / EP007 Just What I Needed: LEADERSHIP (ft. Renzo del Castillo)

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EP007 Just What I Needed: LEADERSHIP (ft. Renzo del Castillo) · Just What I Needed

• Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Hey everyone, welcome back to Just What I Needed. We are so glad that you are here with us today and you are gonna be so glad you tuned into this episode. This is, I guarantee it, going to be an amazing conversation. When you have amazing people, there's no way the conversation isn't gonna be amazing. Today, we have the honor, the pleasure, the privilege of welcoming Renzo del Castillo to the show today. Hey, Renz. Paul Rivera: I'm my own wave Seeing light even on the thawed days of days I trust myself and know my worth There is nothing but stars behind me Renzo Del Castillo: This is just what I needed, guys. Thank you so much. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: It is just what she did. Paul Rivera: Can we go higher? Can we go higher? Together, we're better, you can dream bigger and louder Can we go higher? Renzo Del Castillo: I'm very happy to be here. loved having the chance to chat with you guys. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Same, same. Even though we chat relatively often, it's somehow still not often enough. So this is tremendous. ⁓ We asked Renz to be on the show with us today because, as you know, we get a tremendous amount of questions from people about all sorts of things. And a lot of them focus around things like your own purpose and finding your why and how do you sort of live your limitless life and things like that. Paul Rivera: Can we go higher? Together we're better to dream bigger and louder can we go higher? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: But a big piece of that extends into leadership. And so that's our theme for today. Our theme for today is leadership. ⁓ So I don't know, Esther, you want to kick off that conversation? Yeah, so the question from the audience is, what's a leader? And what is leadership? And I remember I got that question. I'm like, wow, it's true. I have my own definition of that. And I know you do too, Ren. So I'm going to hand this straight to you. What is a leader? Do we want to give him chance to introduce himself? ⁓ he's going to do a good talk, yeah. Fair enough. Renzo Del Castillo: Well, my name is Renzo. a Libra. I enjoy long walks on the, no. I do, I was going to say, I was going to say the pier, but yes, I love that. No, so I'll get into it. But again, thank you for sharing your platform with me and picking my brain on this. This is something I feel very passionately about as you guys know. I think everybody has their own operational definition of what a leader is, but for me, a leader. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: You know you enjoy long walks on the beach. I mean, I'm like, I do too. I'm like, I'm a leper scorpion. love that. Renzo Del Castillo: I subscribe more to servant leadership than anything else. So for me, a leader is someone who is willing to put their needs aside for the greater good, although there needs to be a balance because if you don't take care of yourself, if you heard your episode on boundaries, which I have, you're not, if your cup is empty, you can't give others to drink, right? But a leader does have the need to serve their community, their mentees, the best leaders I've worked for didn't consider me to work for them. They worked for me. They removed obstacles from my path to allow me to succeed. So in short, I think a leader is someone who has a purpose, who has a mission and is able to enable others to reach that purpose together because one person alone is can only do 100 % of what that person can do, but an effective leader can garner community and do 2,000%, 3,000%. know, something like that, something like that. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I love that as an economist, that whole concept of increasing returns. I love it. You're speaking my language. I think what I liked about it was your definition that it's very service based, right? Very purpose oriented. mean, yeah, that's like my jam. ⁓ Renzo Del Castillo: Exactly. I knew that would resonate with you, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I do think there's like an other element I think that you touched on, right? That it's about ⁓ serving the person. And I think that's when, you know, when we talk to students all the time, right? They go to like the, they feel, and I remember, I I talk about this in my book, right? I found this trap too. That as a leader, I thought I needed to have all the solutions and answers for everyone. And so I was like, ⁓ I need to know it because I have to be the guide. And I thought service meant having the answers to someone else and fixing that thing for them. But I think over time I realized that being a leader is not having all the answers, it's giving the space for the answers to come out. And it's being able to listen, being able to have high emotional intelligence. I'm obsessed with emotional intelligence right now. Renzo Del Castillo: You are? I didn't notice. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: We're obsessed. so it's, know, leaders are, it's correlated, right? And I don't mean leaders in terms of title, right? Like leaders in terms of how we're defining leaders have high emotional intelligence and they can make that space and breathe the room. And and, people don't realize it's not an age that makes you a leader. It's like, it's a way of being. What do you think, Renz? Renzo Del Castillo: It's interesting, right? Because Paul just mentioned he was an economist. We can talk about this as an environmentalist, right? Like you create an environment where that enables others to do, allows others to make mistakes, but you create guardrails that allows the project to continue while others learn. It's about accountability, not blame. ⁓ Leadership definitely, there's nuances to it and You know, I'll just take a step back. Like, so I'm, I'm in corporate America, don't don't on. And, I've been in corporate America for some time. We can talk about how I got there, but what I can tell you that I've learned and something that I've. You know, made my bones on is I noticed that corporate America and the world, just the corporate culture doesn't create leaders. What they do is they have really great individual contributors for the most part. I don't want to generalize all the way, make it universal, but what I've observed. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Hahaha! Renzo Del Castillo: Is that they have great individual contributors that they promote to leadership positions, but they don't give them the tools or the learning or, or the skills, the toolkit, the skillset to be a leader. It's a different thing, right? Because they've been successful. Achieving on their own. And now you're putting someone in charge of a group while they are still with the mindset that they have to achieve. And it's very difficult for the leader. It's very difficult for the team. There's a lot of growing pains and the very fortunate ones. I would consider myself one of the fortunate ones and I can go into detail about an example of what this was for me. Um, have a moment of clarity where they realize, Oh, I'm no longer doing I'm enabling others to do. I need to put my ego aside because like I said, as good as I was when I was a consultant or an individual contributor. could only do 100 % of what I can do, but if I galvanize the team and learn from them, see what they bring to the table, allow them to find a path that I may not have seen and not call it wrong, then my view goes from here, from like 45 degrees to 90 degrees to 180 degrees. And if we're lucky, 360 degrees, right? And that allows us to solve problems in different ways, more efficiently. It's bread on empathy. man, it really is bread on empathy. You're, I don't know. It's, to me, it seems so simple, but I do think that's an epidemic in the cultural aspect of corporations, that they don't take the time to create leaders and give them the skills to do so. And one thing that I've done in my career is build that space, create leaders, and I've had a pretty damn good success rate. These people are, go ahead. Sure. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Can we talk about that a little bit? So I think that there is a lot of thinking in the world that leaders are born and not made. But I'm hearing you say something very, very different. So I would love to hear you talk about that a little bit. And then I have a follow-up question, but I want to hear this first. Renzo Del Castillo: Hmm. Okay. So currently in my current engagement, work engagement, in my current engagement, I, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not engaged guys, uh, but very happy. So I'm work. was working with someone who I respect a lot. Um, and we were dealing with resources that weren't strategic weren't even though they're in strategic positions, they haven't been trained to be strategic. And that person believed. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: We can talk about personal later. Renzo Del Castillo: You're either born with it or you're not. And I, what I expressed to them was, Hey, I have this, this training that we can do this program that we can take the team through. I'm happy to do it myself. And I'm not saying I'm going to turn someone from a tactical resource, someone who just does attacks things very, very army-like, right? It's very, very armed forces like, like, here's the objective. I'm a good soldier. I'm going to get it done. If you give me, if you give me 12 weeks. I'm not saying I'll turn them into a strategic resource, but I'll give them the skill set to be strategic enough to be successful in the role you put them in. I can guarantee that. And, you know, we haven't fully implemented it yet, but I have in my interactions been implementing some of those things and they've come up to me later and said, ⁓ I see that. I see what you mean. It's not like he had the bias that you're just born with it, as you mentioned, but I think it goes to empathy. Empathy. Yes, you can be, it's like anything, like any skillset, like some of us are faster, some of us are stronger, some of us are more take to solving puzzles easier. Some of us are spatially gifted, right? But if we don't work on our strengths, we lose them. It's like any other muscle, it atrophies. So yes, you can coach for deficiencies or opportunities as I'd rather refer to them as, but you also coach strengths and leaders. can be made. I wasn't born a leader. I was born a baby, and then I eventually became an insecure, people-pleasing high achiever, which is perfect for consulting. Perfect for consulting, right? So I'm not going to name any of the big five, but you know what I'm talking about. I think we've all worked with resources like that. I think we've all been that at some point. ⁓ And while I was empathetic, I've become much more empathetic than I am, than I was when I was younger. I was always very empathetic, but I couldn't handle it. So for example, I would walk into a room and I would know somebody is in pain and it'd be like, yeah, that person, and it ends up that their husband died or that they lost their, their son or that their pet or that they were their house foreclosed or something. I always picked it up, but I had an issue putting a boundary of where my, their pain ended and mine began. And it was very difficult for me to, I don't want to call it weaponized, but to utilize my empathy for my benefit, for everybody else's benefit. And I learned those skills. Right. I know for a fact, because I'm not just a guest, I'm also a reader that Esther has developed a toolkit to, to hone those things. Right. And to develop those things. I hate telling somebody you can't do anything. You guys ever watch lost? Remember lock? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Hahaha! Yes. Renzo Del Castillo: Like don't tell me what I can and can't do. That's me. Like I will try it. Like just don't tell me what I can and can't do. Not when it comes to violating somebody else's boundaries, but like my ability to do something. Let me work on it. Give me the chance to at least attempt it. And I want to give others the chance to attempt it because I have dealt with people that have never seen themselves as leaders who are now some of the best I've ever encountered. And they started just by, ⁓ let me onboard some. Let me show them the ropes. Let me have them shadow me. And then they developed a taste for it. And they're like, yeah, their achievements are give me so much more satisfaction than mine. And I said, yes, that's exactly what happened for me. It's what I, I don't have children, but I would imagine that's what having children would be like to look at someone that you are teaching and providing an environment where they can grow and seeing them achieve. It's just, it's meant so much more to me than my achievements when I used to be someone. earned money and made a living on my own achievements. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: That makes a lot of sense. So, do you have sort of a framework that you utilize as you're working with people or is it something that's very bespoke to the person and the organization or is there, like you've said empathy a few times, right? that I'm asking for your trade secrets or anything like that, but. Renzo Del Castillo: No, no, it's so. I mentioned capability. I'm a very big James Bond fan and that's the ultimate in male fantasy for being capable. Like if you have the amount of time to be good at the tango and sharp shooting, you have more time than anybody in the world, right? Just as a range. The reason I mentioned that is I really got into suits and bespoke clothing. And when I was, when I made friends in that area, there's the difference between ready to wear, made to measure and bespoke. really calls out to me. just, just follow me with this. Okay. So ready to wear is just like you have a t-shirt, you pick it up, you put it on. It's if your show, you know, our bodies are all different. My shoulders are way wider than they appear. So when I put on a t-shirt that fits my shoulders, looks like I weigh like 200 pounds, right? As opposed for my frame. So made to measure is you have patterns that you, that come stock, but then you make adjustments and tailor them to the person and bespoke you and you co-create with your tailor, your pattern. type of the type of details you want in the suit or whatever that applies to the business world, right? Like imagine you're a coach. you put out a class that's ready to wear, right? If you have a system like, like the, for example, creating the workbook for creating your limitless life, shameless plug that is, that is, ⁓ made to measure because you have a framework and then you can, then the person can tailor it to themselves. by their responses, but Esther is no longer putting work into it. She's made the work and then people are tailoring it to themselves. And bespoke is individual coaching sessions, right? Because that takes a lot out of you. That's a higher price point, for example, because it's more effort. When you are co-creating a coaching or a leadership practice from scratch to tailor to the person, you won't really rely on anything. So for me, what I do is I'm very disciplined. And I say that in the sense that like I make my bed every morning, even if I'm in a hotel, much to the annoyance of my, my girlfriend, right? Right. But I do. And some people may say that is why would you do that? Somebody's going to make it for you. There's no need. It's a wasted effort, right? Like somebody's going to take care of it. But for me that if I can make my bed mentally, what else can I do? What else can I do? What else can I do? And when you have discipline, you have efficiencies. So for example, if you Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: It's one of your values, Renze, remember? Renzo Del Castillo: you're running a company or you're working as a diplomat and you have the processes that are everywhere. If you have a thousand little treaties that allow work to happen every day, the second somebody's upset with somebody else, work won't happen. But if you have strong processes that support the team, it takes time to put them in place. But then your day-to-day operations, if it took you 40 hours, it starts taking you 20 hours. And what happens? You have 20 hours for ideation. You have 20 hours for creativity. It's like practicing piano or playing guitar, right? Like you go through your chords, you go through your harmonies, you go through your finger exercises. And then when you get, when you are skilled enough, that takes you way less. And then you start doing jazz baby, right? Like that's where you start going. So when it comes to answer your question, just to bring it back, I wanted to give you that context. For me, it's very intuitive as well. I need to, but it, but it goes with my discipline. So the first thing I do is I map the end goal. What does the person want? What do they want to achieve? What do we want them to achieve? And then I use the intuition to talk to the person, use the empathy to understand them, see their motivation, understand their framework of life that is shaped by experiences that I've never had. So I can't have the, the ego to think I understand it, right. And get that and see where they are. And if I juxtapose those two things, my current state with the end goal. That gap analysis is my project plan to get them there. one person might podcast, my might resonate with them. had another person when I first started, here's something when I first started being a people leader, I had somebody who people called a problem resource. So I'm like, I'm going to go in here and I'm going to recommend the book. I recommended the four agreements. Okay. And, ⁓ the documentation from the person who used to be in charge of the team before was like, have victim mentality or whatever. So I recommended the four agreements. impeccable with your word, et cetera. And if you've read the four agreements, you know that it's heavily based on like the King James version of the Bible, right? Okay. I went to get my haircut after I left work on a Friday and I get a call from HR saying I was trying to religiously colonize a work and I don't care if it's the Torah, the Bible, the Quran. Like if a book has, if I find value in book, I'm going to recommend that to you, but that was the beginning and end. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Mm-hmm. Renzo Del Castillo: The humble beginning and end of Renzo's book club at work. Right. If people want me to recommend something out of work, I'll do it, but I, it's, taught me a lot too, in terms of boundaries and when somebody's ready for coaching and when they're not. But I also made a mistake because I didn't, I took to be more efficient back then when I was newer, I took what was given to me instead of mapping that out for myself. Yes, I should do research. Yes, I should do it, but I should make my own opinion. And I recommended a book to someone who was sensitive about it. And the. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: You Thank you. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: Did they respond in the most mature way? No. But could I have done a better job of building trust? Yes. So that was a lesson for me too. So my leadership style is basically discipline in that way, but there's a lot of empathy and feeling and intuition because it has to be tailored to the person. I don't want to create. Let me, let me clarify. I don't create leaders. I enable people to achieve the leadership level they can get to and want to get to. Right. because you may have someone who doesn't want to be a leader. They just want to be a technical writer. Okay, but are you taking the courses? Are you going to be the best technical writer you can be? Are you seeing what's in the industry now? Let's do that. Let's build that discipline to gain knowledge, self-develop, and be the best version that you can be. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Definitely. I love what you're saying, Because it's very similar to the work we do, right? So I mean, that's what we do. Exactly. so I mean, what I like is that, Renz, you go into like the deep dive, right? Like you're embedded in these organizations, you take them in, right? We go in just to give them like what they would take them a week to do in two hours and give them that starting base of being like, this is something we need to do, I need to invest in, right further. But right now, Renzo Del Castillo: think that's why we're aligned. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I can only do two hours, use efficiency, right? Get as much data as I can about my people. And for us, it's like, at least let them get there. Like for us, we're going in there of, this is like, I need you to have a baseline, right? After that, of course, we want you to have the rents bespoke model. But at least I want everyone to have a baseline. Because I mean, I think we've all worked in places where people don't even have the. the base of like what's going on in their team, what does my team need? And then to tie back to what you were saying about empathy, right? So, you I'm obsessed with emotional intelligence, And empathy is one piece, but I think there's, ⁓ know, under the emotional intelligence, because I like what you're saying about that, it goes with the leadership, right? Because there's IQ and EQ. IQ is fixed, right? We all know that, we're born with that. But EQ is not. EQ can be created. You can raise, you can go from having zero EQ to 100. You can create that. And how you create that is first self-awareness. So you have to know yourself first before you can even get to the empathy. Yeah, you gotta know yourself. And that's why we always start everything with values and motivation because you need to know yourself. You need to know what you value. Like you said, you're a straight out wrens a couple of times. For you, compassion, empathy is one of your values. Discipline. Through what you're saying, I hear all your values. Renzo Del Castillo: Know thyself. That resonates with me so much. ⁓ Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: 8 out of 10 people don't know them. So if you're working in an environment where a society, 8, 10 AI out of 10 people don't know it, 36%, only 36 % of people have a significant EQ. You're talking about 64%, right? I'm not sure if I'm doing the math right. It sounds right. OK. Renzo Del Castillo: 83 % of the time you're always right. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Let me do the math on the fly. Percents of people don't even have the EQ. That means that, okay, so we've got to start from basics. There's not even a self-awareness. When you were talking about it, your book club, I was even taking it a step further. Because the values tells you what you're triggered by. That person, even if you would have asked them, it's very interesting about the book, you might have asked them, can I recommend your book? That person might have said, yeah, of course. until you gave them the book because they don't know their self-awareness, didn't realize it even triggered them. So for me, was like, need to be aware of what is it you value, what are your triggers, and then communicate that because then it's not just up to you to know that that person was going to be triggered by the book. It's like if that person knew their own triggers, they would say, actually, what's that book about? You know what? That's going to trigger me. And then that goes into the second phase of EQ, which is self-management. So if you know what triggers you, who you are, right, what's gonna be around, then you're able to self-manage those emotions, not go into crazy overdrive. And then if you can do that, then you can have social awareness, right, which is what you're talking about, like the empathy, right, and be able to understand what people are feeling, read the room, understand body language, and then you can manage relationships. So imagine you were saying, like, if we're not investing, we're living in a world where very people, of people have emotional intelligence, right? You were talking about even like the leaders, you know, the leaders quotes with the titles that we have in organizations. I think they were, this book I was reading was saying CEOs have the lowest emotional intelligence, actually middle managers have the highest just because they have to to be able to get work done. By default. Exactly. Renzo Del Castillo: Because think about where they are in the social nodes, right? Like they're right in the middle. They have to manage up, have to manage laterally, and they have to manage down. again, they're getting the reps in. That's the discipline, right? That's like working on your free throws. You're doing it all the time. CEOs have to look at the big picture and have to be dispassionate. Not the best ones I've seen, right? The best ones I've dealt with and worked with are there's a human aspect to it that they don't forget. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yep. Thanks. Renzo Del Castillo: But by the nature of the task that is assigned to them, which is overseeing stock price, overseeing profitability, their call, a CEO's call is like, I just need this done. Okay. That's most of it. If you're good at your job, if you're great at your job, it's what we're talking about. Exactly. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. Yep. Yeah. then the EQ comes in, right? It's a good thing, it's a muscle, right? And you have to work on it. what I want the listeners to see is that it's not something you're born with. It's not something that it requires work every day. And like when you were talking about the discipline right now, it's even discipline about. Practicing gratitude every day, everyone's like, ⁓ that's fluff. Actually, no. ⁓ Practicing gratitude, celebrating wins for a week gives you confidence boost morale for a whole month. There's all this science with the neurotransmitters, this. So all of these little things to be able to, like you're saying, get to your goal, but more than just your goal, be able to, if you're going to be leading others, you have to do so much internal work and you have to work on it every Renzo Del Castillo: Exactly. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: single day. And it requires everyone in the team, right? Because we're talking about leaders, but leaders have to create, you were mentioning earlier, right? It's like environment. You have to create an enabling environment that's not contaminating. what you mean? So it's an environment that's not gossiping, that's not complaining, that's not negative, because all that, it's like literally called neurotransmitting, right? You're neurotransmitting all that negativity, and it's damaging parts of your brain and your workforce. So you have to work with everyone and create this environment and mirror this positivity and the confidence which means like I remember I worked with someone who gossiped all the time remember my managers and he was like that was like as a leader you cannot be doing that right because then that's creating this this culture of negativity it's damn you know then everyone's gonna be mirroring that and then that's gonna reduce our productivity our morale everything right and so yeah so I don't know what what do you ⁓ I'm kind of going on a ramble about EQ but I'm kind of echoing Renzo Del Castillo: Yeah. No, no, I'm gonna bring it back, Esther. I'm gonna bring it back. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I'm echoing to you that I completely agree. And that's why I think we're aligned, because it's like our mission to be like, hey, if we can bring this to teams, or if you're a leader listening to this, it's time to invest in this type. Everyone wants to put this as a last investment, but it's actually one of the first things you should put in to increase your impact and scale. Renzo Del Castillo: Well, I want to hit three points about taking everything you said and I'm going to hit three points on it. then Paul, I'm curious about what you think about this too, because we've all held leadership positions and I think we all are, while we are aligned, we're all different people. And it's interesting how we all, you know, all the all roads lead to Rome, but not every road's the same. Right. So we all try to get to that place. The first thing I'll say is I heard you say negative emotions and one thing that I'm or a negative workplace. And one thing that I Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: that I've learned and actually that I practice is I don't shy away from emotions that are considered negative. Anger leads to release, guilt leads to atonement, right? So the important thing for me is like, can you express it in a respectful way? If you have somebody that's gossiping, hold them accountable. like, how does this contribute? Does this make you feel better? Does it not? There's what's proper in the workplace, but correct, what are you gaining, right? So this person, I'm going to assume, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. and reframing it. Yeah, self-managing it. Renzo Del Castillo: has a habit because that gossip maybe, I'll describe it this way. Let's say I'm missing social interaction, so what I do is I go and I walk over to the break room, pick up a donut and chat with Esther. What happens? I've gained 20 pounds, right? Because I need that social interaction, so how can I get social interaction out? Well, maybe I can ⁓ take my meetings on a walk and then I burn off, you know, I burn off. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: You Renzo Del Castillo: calories for my health. I'm not in taking that processed sugar. I'm, and it's like the habit was just replaced with another habit because it's like stereotypes, right? Like the only thing that's can replace a stereotype is another stereotype. We've gone from Hattie McDaniel to Mami, like from Mami to Maya Angelou, for example, but it had to be replaced. Right. So, ⁓ Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. Exactly. And our brains want to be efficient. They're lazy. So right? So that habit, they just want to repeat it. Renzo Del Castillo: Exactly. The world is, I'm not against stereotypes, right? Because the world is information overload and we process these things. The only problem I have with them is if you don't question them, if you don't take a moment when you feel it and instead of beating yourself up about it or feeling guilty, knowing that you've been raised a certain way, you've lived a certain way, but if you choose or you not choose, if you're not aware, but if you don't question these things, that's when I think problems come into your life. They come into your work life, your personal life, your goals, what you want to achieve. So that's one. The other thing too, that came up for me when you were mentioning all of that SD is you have to remove your ego. You have to break that ego down in life, but also when you're going to become a leader. I'll give you an example. You remember call, I mean, we've all been to grad school, right? And everybody's personality was defined by the theory they were doing their thesis on. You know what I'm talking about? Like Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: I'm a classicist. Well, I'm neurodiver, I'm this, I'm that. And then it's like, yo, you're trying to make the problem fit your toolkit. You're not using the right tool for the problem. A thesis, a theory, that's all it is. It's just a way to get to another place. It's a way to solve a problem. It's a way to get to another, to an end. But when you try to take the end and make it fit your thing because your personality is so entwined to it, you're not going to hear anybody, right? That's where the ego comes in. So when you have People that are tied into, mentioned IQ. You're right. My IQ was very high as a kid. I don't know what my IQ is now, but it's not as high as it was when I was a kid because I've had more life, right? I've reached the peak of that and it's just going to go down. It's a quotient. Exactly. And it balances out, right? But if I based my identity on being smart. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: But you have good EQ. Renzo Del Castillo: It's going to create problems for me. did. You and I were in the gifted program. We went to high school together. Spoiler alert for those who don't know. I've known Esther for a long time, but we've become really good friends in the last couple of years, which I'm very grateful for. And she brought that lovely man, that Paul into my life, that guy. ⁓ but you remember what it meant to get a five on an AP exam to those kids, to us. I physics calculus didn't come as easy to me. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: You You ⁓ yeah. Yeah, yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: I was still okay at it, but it didn't come as easy to me as language arts, as the other AP class, even as macroeconomics, I did better in that. And it was interesting because when I would go take the test for the AP Cal test, I left my calculator, my TI-83 at home. And it was, yeah, I got a four, right? So what was my narrative after that? Like I left my calculator at home and I still got a four, right? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Noooo! Renzo Del Castillo: And then what was, if I wouldn't have gotten a four, it's like, well, I left my calculator at home. It was like Joe McEnroe, dude. Like I was trying to like, my identity was so fragile because I was defining myself when I was growing up because of the way that I grew up. was. And again, my parents are great, but parents all have, you know, we all mess up our kids one way. just hope they know we love them. Right. Like I grew up thinking that my value was what I could do. Not yes, not who I am. So I was smart. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah, what you achieve, what you could achieve. Renzo Del Castillo: I w was easy. I was born intelligent. had a really high IQ, but that goes away. So who am I if I'm not the smart one, right? If I would have taken that and I wouldn't have grown and taken that into my leadership practice, my leadership career, right? I would not have been successful. And at the beginning of it, I still did it because I went from being an individual contributor to, I think we need to talk about this. So when I was first offered a job as a as a leader, I said no three times until they started talking stock options, right? Again, very focused on me, very focused on money, very focused on achieving. And then I went and met the team. It was a project management team ⁓ for a pharmacy benefit management area in a company. And it was very inefficient. Two people were using Microsoft project. to run projects, a couple of people are using Excel, some people are using Word, and this really old school guy, Jeff, was just like using his notebook, just writing, right? Just writing, just writing. And I'm like, okay, so within two weeks, I solved it, and I gave it to them, and it was a spectacular failure because I didn't include them. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: There's always a Jeff. Exactly. Renzo Del Castillo: Right? I was still on my own. This was still, let me show what I can do. And I was actually at Disneyland, at Disney World. And it was around October and I'm like, ⁓ I don't know what I'm doing. It's been almost like six, seven months or whatever. And I saw, you know how Disney is super efficient at logistics when it comes to the lines. Okay. So I was looking at the haunted house and there was one person. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. I love Disney. Renzo Del Castillo: I saw a bunch of cast members just switching the line and making sure cause it was getting packed. And there was one cast member that was off to the side and cast members would come and talk to her and they would come back and come talk to her. And I'm like, ⁓ my God, that's when I decided. That's when I knew that was my moment of clarity. happened at Disney world in front of the haunted house. She's not doing she's enabling them to do, and they're moving so fast and so efficient and nobody I'm like, ⁓ my God. Okay. So that sucked. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: You Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: But it was necessary. So I talked to my boss and I got approval to fly all the team to where we were to corporate. And I flew an HR representative because we were all remote. And I said, I messed up. I didn't include you. This is where I need to get to. Can you help me get there? How do we get there? And it took nine more months. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: And it was about 90 % of what I had already done. Okay. But the 10 % I didn't do was better than anything I had done. That was my first lesson. That was my shift into becoming a leader. So you have to be able to crack your identity. You have to be able to dig in and question your id, your ego, your super ego. You have to be able to do that. And it helps you not just be a better leader, but it helps you be a better person. The third thing, and then I wanna hear Paul. Empathy is key to this. I've mentioned it. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Absolutely. you Renzo Del Castillo: And you know, maybe your audience isn't aware I'm also a poet, right? I I published the book. It's done really well. Esther and I were both at the Latino awards. forget the international Latino book awards, right? Getting some swag, ⁓ being recognized, being bestsellers in Amazon in our categories, right? Like that's actually, that's how Esther and I really bonded and our friendship has developed into what it is now from there. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Awards. Renzo Del Castillo: I love art because art poetry for me is my view, but I paintings and theater and singing and music. I love all of that stuff. And it's because art creates an analytical relationship between yourself and an object. So by definition, it breeds empathy. You start looking at things from what you imagine somebody else's perspective was. You start thinking about like, ⁓ I wonder what the artist was thinking when they wrote this song. ⁓ I wonder what the painter was painting when they did that and you It becomes the theory of montage is dialectical realism, right? So you come you I write a poem thesis Right Paul you come and read my poem with your worldview with everything the way you grew up Antithesis and you extract meaning from it synthesis that applies to that applies to the corporate world that applies to the nonprofit world that applies to the business. applies to anything, right? Work is a relationship. You when when a company lets you down and you're going through burnout, you're going through a breakup with somebody who disappointed you. It feels the same way your body reacts the same way you had plans. You thought you were going to end your life here. You are gonna do these things. That's the same way. Why? Because it's a relationship and empathy allows you to navigate relationships. Empathy allows you to come to, I'm not even gonna call it solving a problem, come to a compromise that is mutually beneficial. If you're like, if going to this event for two hours seems too much to you and going to this event for two hours seems too little to me, chances are going to that event for two hours is a pretty good thing we should both do. I just wanted to say those three things out of what you were talking about, Esther. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I love that. That's amazing. ⁓ I hear so many things, echoes of different conversations, like our last. Episode was with Alexis and it was about relationships and one of the things we asked her was, you know, how do you distinguish sort of personal romantic relationships from work type relationships and and frankly her answer at the end of the day was They're kind of not that different. They're still values based and all of that so it's it's not it's nice to hear the the other side of that that that sort of the demise of that of those relationships also feels the same right and it shouldn't be surprising Renzo Del Castillo: A great Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: The other thing that I'm struck- Can I just plug in? It's what we saw with the whole humanitarian sector last year. For them, they lost their identity. It was devastating. It was devastating for us too, that sector dying, right? It was like a whole breakup. Renzo Del Castillo: Yeah, my heart broke for you guys. It broke because in general, I thought it was a horrible thing to happen, but I have people I love in the industry going through it. You guys, some other friends, it was heartbreaking and it was also powerless, right? Like what can we do in this moment? Well, you did a blueprint, which we can go into, but at that moment it was very difficult. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: And for them, exactly. And for them. Yeah, and for them even worse because their whole identities were that. when you guys were talking about the breakup, I thought of them. yeah, for sure. And then the other thing I was going to talk about actually was it's super interesting because we come from a background in international development where so much of our work in the past was about taking countries, societies, communities, organizations, sectors, and trying to create an enabling environment for them and trying to sort of create a framework within which they could thrive. But one of the biggest things that we saw was the failure of those attempts simply because those people who were involved were never consulted. It was thrown, it was helicoptered onto always a failure. The sector did a lot of great things. No, absolutely. But the ones that did fail. Absolutely. But there was a lot of coming in with the solution. Pre-determined. Exactly. And without co-creating. without listening without doing that jointly. Like they were trying to do what Renz was saying from the beginning which was that the t-shirt model which I get it's more efficient, right? Ready to wear across all countries. But the truth is every country needs the bestoke, you know, they can, they need like the tailor, like it's because they're all different sizes and shapes. And so and instead you can think of the t-shirt was actually instead the model we're talking about right now, right? The t-shirt instead was not the solution. That's the same for each country, but more what we're talking about the Renzo Del Castillo: Ready to wear. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: approach of having empathy. Right. Renzo Del Castillo: It ended up being more costly at the end, right? Because you had to go in. Yeah. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: having more social awareness, having better relationship management, and then it lasts longer, right? But I want to tie that because these investments in yourself, whether you're trying to, you have aspirations to be this leader, investments in coaching, in emotional intelligence, in empathy, right? Actually, as Renz was talking about, I thought about, you want to talk about that example with the men? You want me to talk about it? the DR, there was this project. There was this project here a long time It was a long time ago already. And it was about men that had been incarcerated from abuse to their spouse or partner. And when they did diagnostics on them, empathy was low, emotional intelligence was low. But they did these interventions. Rather than having these harsh interventions, the whole program was about, I think we can do instead emotional intelligence type training, empathy type training, and let's see what happens. And what they found was actually doing that and not doing all this instead of like, think about the debate between corporal punishment, instead of going through this whole punishment route, instead of training route. ⁓ they actually didn't become repeat offenders. ⁓ They were able to learn it. And a lot of it wasn't, ⁓ like I'm not saying that what their action wasn't, they're not accountable for their action, but. Renzo Del Castillo: No, that's the key. I'll get into that. Please continue. Accountability. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. was accountability. was more about the ones that were willing to be like, okay, first, the self awareness that what I'm doing hurts. They didn't even have that right hurts the other person. And then the self management and even going past anger and understanding that a lot of these feelings are rooted in anger is a is a under there's an underlying emotion, right? Fear, shame, all these other things that they're not that can be a drug, you know, you don't have to like bottle it down with or express it with anger. ways to address them, but everything we're talking about. But they found that it actually, can, like we're talking about, you can learn it, you can overcome it, right? And it was actually more effective. So, know, since you were tying the international development piece to it, right? This has so many applications, not just leadership at work, but even leadership at home and in your community. Yeah, no, the other thing, I'm slightly upset that you already brought up the poetry because I wanted to bring that up. and, but But I don't think I could have even conceived of a more elegant answer for that integration and how important poetry, but art and that sort of thing in particular, and its relationship to leadership and how we go about living our lives. And so I'm so thankful that you brought that up. I was also thinking, Paul, since what he was saying reminded me, if you want to go into it, about your big universe, small universe talk. a lot of what rents Renzo Del Castillo: Are you gonna give me the talk, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah, I think he should because there comes a time in every boy's life, friends. And they're ready for the big universe. OK, no, no, no. But I was thinking about it because a lot of what Renz was mentioning, you we were talking about his story is about like fixing growth mindset. Right. And we both had the trajectory and I think all three of us of, you know, going from fixed to growth mindset. Right. And a lot of what you take leaders through is developing a growth mindset. But go ahead. You know, it times really nicely. to like the small universe. It does. So it's I think we've actually brought it up on the show before. Actually, I think we I think we have. But basically in economics, there's as you're solving different problems, you one of the parameters that you have to set is if you're dealing with basically the small universe or the big universe. Right. So the small universe is a place where impacts where changes have a strong impact, but they are localized as opposed to the big universe, which is systemic. Right. And it's super fascinating. because oftentimes when people get into very sort of fixed mindset kind of situations, ⁓ almost fatalistic kind of situations where they feel like they don't have control and therefore oftentimes they choose to do nothing. So we talk about it a lot in terms of what are the generators of inaction. Or even as he was saying, overcompensating, right? Like you're ⁓ allowing, you're not even letting the enabling environment, right? You're not enabling other people to create because you want to control everything. Exactly. there's a lot of small universe thinking that at the end of the day is limiting. Right. So, you a lot of the work is expanding people's not just mindsets, but their view for them to see that there are maybe maybe it's not even seeing the big universe, but it's seeing that there are other small universes. Yeah. You know, and, know, as you were saying that for me, I think and then I'll pass it to you, Renz. For me, I was thinking about my trajectory as a leader. Renzo Del Castillo: Mm-hmm. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: my biggest growth I had to do was stop comparing. Because you know, like you were talking about high school, right? Everything was about being the top 10. I remember I was number five and like 0.0000, you know, like one of behind everyone else, right? And so when you're in that type of like achievement comparison, the comparison is necessary for the competition. Renzo Del Castillo: Hmm. Mm-hmm. And it burned you, right? Yeah. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: But the problem with that is that then you're constantly looking at what everyone else is doing, not from a vantage point of, ⁓ let me look and see, I want to acquire those skills, right? It's more like, it's more from a scarcity point of view. And I think my biggest growth from that was going, was understanding, I bring value to the room, I'm doing my own intrinsic work, and then when I do that, I understand everyone else's value in the room, and then I can create an enabling environment But when I was stuck in that competition or why am I, you know what, I'm putting my head down and working. Why aren't people recognizing me? Why aren't people this? Why am I not getting this opportunity? And then, know, like hustle, hustle, hustle. And without stopping, like you said, and really being like, wait, actually, I bring value, they bring value. You know what I mean? Like, let me create the space for everyone. And then that was the big click for me. So I'm curious about you. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: Well, you actually described something that I work with with my team members all the time. Even I still have my former team members who call me and we work through things. It's when you go from competition to collaboration, when you make that evolution, right? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. Renzo Del Castillo: I've never been, I'd never subscribed to the Anne Rand view of the world, the triumph of the self, right? Like Atlas shrugged, because I think it's a fallacy. We have all, there's nothing I have ever achieved that I've done on my own. My mother birthed me, my dad and mom raised me. My sister taught me the meaning of patience growing up. If you're hearing this, Maria, shout out to Maria. ⁓ You know, I'm a product of my community. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. Yeah Renzo Del Castillo: And it's interesting because we have these, least as immigrants, Hispanic immigrants, right? From the culture that we come from. It's like, we are the product of our community, but we have to achieve as individuals and for the legacy of the community, that dissonance is insane, right? So it's, and our needs have to be put aside because of the needs of our parents who worked really hard to, I don't know. Like there was this one time and I'm like, I was Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: All Mm-hmm. in the same night. Yep. Renzo Del Castillo: Like my mom's amazing, right? But there was one time where she said like, you know, I clothed you, I fed you or whatever. And it was like the umpteenth time in my life where I heard that speech. Like you took 19 hours, you were a dry birth and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, and I just lost it. And I was, and I told her that means being a mother. That is baseline. You fed me great. High five. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. you Renzo Del Castillo: you have been a great mom for so many other reasons, but that's not, I'm not gonna do what you want because you tell me this anymore, right? And it was just a moment of growth for her and a moment of growth for me as well because my mom is amazing. She doesn't need to say all that, but that's the way she was taught. We have to give back to the collective by being individuals, but how are we giving back to the collective over individuals and on and on and on on. So there's all that baggage. ⁓ So we feel like we need to. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: and y'all Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: move forward, but I am made up of all the little pieces of everybody I've ever loved. My favorite movie, someone showed it to me. My favorite book, someone gave it to me. My favorite song, someone heard it with me. Right? The first time I tried sushi, I didn't look at it and say, with my whole Western of like arroz con frejoles, con carne, con huevo frito arriba, like I didn't look at it and say like, that looks good. I'm going to try it. Somebody who I value said, Hey, this is awesome. You should try it. Right? So if that's Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. We'll Renzo Del Castillo: the case, then aren't I a product? And if people think I'm like an awesome person and they like hanging out with, ⁓ guys, it's so awesome. Like, but I'm a great person and people like hanging out with me and being with me and sharing with me and collaborating with me. Isn't that because I'm a product of all the people that have touched my life? Right? In a way, in a way, yes, in a big way it is. So when it comes to collaboration, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: That's what your book's all about. That's what still is. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: It's made me stronger than anything I've ever done before. And when I was competing, again, I could only do a hundred percent. When I've collaborated, I've done a thousand percent, right? To think that we were alone in achieving something. And even again, let's say I just achieve it. It's a much better structure if I have Paul's input, if I have your input. You know, like I'm good at economics. I'm not a PhD. You know, I didn't create my own PhD program at Berkeley. You know what I'm saying? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. Renzo Del Castillo: I didn't do that. I have my own achievements and it's not less or more or better or a measuring contest. It's what it is. Like, great, you have that. It's like, what was that? Like stone soup. You guys remember stone soup? It's that. It's exactly that. You go in, you have people coming in. It's like, I'm going to make soup out of stone, but it'd be nice if I had some carrots. I have carrots. And then at the end of it, it's like, ⁓ I really, man, this soup is amazing. I can't believe it's just made from stone. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yes. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: But it's humorous and it's a joke and all that, but the moral of that story is like we are much stronger together. Like people are hoarding resources when if we bring them together, you know, like we can create something that could feed everybody else. and I think that applies to leadership. I think that applies to empathy and then to, go ahead, go ahead. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yep. Exactly. Yeah. And I know I was just about to say, and Paul, please try me, and I was going to say that it just echoes the point that like. that leadership is a collaborative effort, right? And so, because sometimes like we hear also people blame. Exactly. And I don't think that what people blame also, like they want to put it all on the leader as well. And I want to just leave that message. You were talking about the soup is that it's also if you're part of a team, you can also help your leader, right? Like we all need help with our leadership, you know, and we all need help with these blind spots we have. And the more that we can come together and make the soup, I love that analogy, right? The better, right? We can help. Renzo Del Castillo: Who are you leading, if you're alone? Thousand percent. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: even if we're responding to it. That's part of leadership too. You don't have to have the title to be of a leader, to be even a leader in helping the leader. No, so actually that was exactly the question that I wanted to ask. So as I was thinking about this conversation we were going to have, and one of the frustrating things for me is actually the word leader and leadership, because I love etymology. I love knowing where words come from. And it's very frustrating because how do you say leader in Spanish? Renzo Del Castillo: Well, goes into go ahead, go ahead, Paul. Hahaha Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Leader, how do you say leader in French? Leader, it's the same word, right? So it doesn't have this powerful meaning behind it. So my question is for both of you really, So wait, I'm curious, what does leader ⁓ mean? Okay, so it literally means that it's one who guides others. Okay. Is literally right. Renzo Del Castillo: Yeah. And that's the point, guides. That guide has the context of service. We guide. What does it got, when you climb up Everest, what do you have a shirt, but who is that? Your guide, right? As opposed to like, I'm leading from the front. I'm, you know what I mean? Or I'm leading just like seeing like, sorry, Paul, please continue. I get, get passionate about this. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. No, no, no, no. I think you're going exactly where my question was going, because in the context of this conversation, a lot of the discussion has been around the leader as the person who is responsible for a group of people and jointly responsible for an outcome. But. I know that when we talk to people, often tell them that your position isn't what makes you a leader. Exactly. I mean, that's where I was going with, You can be in a team, you can be the admin, and you can still have leadership. Even if you're the person that's just cutting the gossip in the group, that's a type of leadership, right? You're the person, or the person that's like, bringing people together to maybe lighten them up. And this goes back to actually one of the stories that Renz was telling at the beginning of our Renzo Del Castillo: Servant leadership. Yeah. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: conversation and what I thought of was my dad. And again, I apologize if I've said this story before, my dad, so my dad's a mechanic, right? And my dad is a brilliant mechanic. Like he's the person that intuitively understands how machines work. He's also builds not just mechanics, he builds all sorts of stuff. No, my dad, my dad's greatest skill in all of Renzo Del Castillo: He's a phrenologist, a systems analyzer, right? Yeah. He understands systems. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Completely, completely. And it's super, super interesting. so he I'm from Los Angeles and he was a mechanic for the bus company ⁓ for decades. And his dad's this big Salvadorian man. But he was ⁓ amazing as a mechanic. Right. And it was when you were talking about how corporate America and it's not just corporate America that does this. It moves individual contributors into leadership positions. Right. So that's exactly what happened to my dad at one He was moved away from being a mechanic and put as the supervisor. ⁓ And so he was put in a leadership position. because of the fact of having been put in that position, one without, as you said, without the training, without the skills, he... his capacity to actually be a leader was grossly diminished because in his role as a mechanic, he was very much a leader. He was someone that people looked up to and he was one who brought community and he's one who brought solutions. the people around him that were becoming mechanics, right? All of that. And so it was fascinating because he, he eventually he did not last long in that supervisory position and went back to being a mechanic. And it was fascinating because for a long time, he felt a failure, right? That he had been given a promotion and that he felt like he- A leadership position. A leadership position. And then he felt like he couldn't achieve there. But with time, he did come to that understanding that his true leadership was in doing what he does best. Right and this is where like people with this where we talk about like having resumes without your title right where where people like they start focusing so much on the titles that they don't utilize other people in the room or in the spaces or go ahead Renz. Renzo Del Castillo: No, it's a shame what happened with your dad because there was a way to help him get into that role while keeping his skills intact, right? They also, by going into that role, they took the joy away from him because if the way he described him, I imagine that he loved putting things together, taking them apart and doing all that stuff. It could be, right? Because you could be... Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yes. Exactly. I don't think that role was for him. That's the thing. You can still be a leader. It could be, but it could not be. Renzo Del Castillo: It could not be and it could be, it's just they never gave him the opportunity to decide for himself by giving him the skillset and saying, hey, I'm able to do this, I'm capable, but it's not my thing. I'm going to go back to this. And that's what happens. Like you were talking about big picture, you know, big world, little world. What you described to me earlier regarding the work you did with developing communities, it's a difference between globalization and localization. The standard it's you're taking logic and applying it to Yes, logic, it's not solely logic, right? But you're applying it to a matter of emotion, a matter of the heart, a matter of love, a matter of pride, a matter of, of, of self-esteem. When you, if you go and this, you know, the U S has done this, Hey, we're going to give you help X country, but I know you grow yams. We want you to grow cotton and we will help you with your infrastructure. And good. You have a basic infrastructure that won't last, but you are. born and made and all of your natural resources are to produce yams, but you're producing cotton. So you're not being as efficient producing cotton. You're losing the ability to bring the value that you provide that applies to development that applies to people that applies to leadership that applies across, across the globe with anything because Your ability, logic works, logic helps. That's the stereotype. Like this is a thing that could work, if you don't tailor it, if you don't localize it, if you don't take globalization and localize it to use the strengths, the opportunities, like even, even your opportunities are uniquely yours. When I used to interview people, used to ask them, what, what do you think is your greatest strengths? They love talking about that. The next question I always set them up with was what are your opportunities? And it was like, huh, what, huh, what? And you don't know how many. ⁓ I work too hard. I am too involved. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: And you know what's so funny? You know what's so funny? That's what we train, that's what we coach people with is that question, what are your weaknesses? But if, yeah, but if I, and I tell them you're always going to get that question, right? But, but each value, what we do is like each value has a shadow side. And the answer to that question is the shadow work that you do within your values. Exactly. And if you can't answer that, then you don't know your triggers, right? Renzo Del Castillo: ⁓ my, we've never talked about this. Like I've always interviewed people that way. Well, it's know thyself, right? It's know thyself and I'll ex- Well, exactly. And that's what after the interview is done, always whenever somebody didn't get it or whenever somebody got it, that question always came up. And I said, like, let me tell you why I asked you that question, because something will trigger you every day of your life, no matter what, no matter what. And if you are aware of your opportunities and if you're aware of your strengths, you know what you can use to mitigate and navigate that to a successful conclusion. Doesn't you don't have to be perfect. You just have to be aware. And I think that applies to. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Renzo Del Castillo: promoting somebody like your father, Paul, that applies to developing countries, understanding what, you know, the dignity that they bring as humans to what they want to achieve instead of, that's like me being a dad and saying like, ⁓ yeah, you're going to be a doctor when my son or daughter wants to be a statistician or something. but no, I want you be a doctor, but I think doctors, you know, you won't have to worry about money. Yeah, okay. You know how much medical school debt is. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Mm-hmm. Thank Exactly. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: and all that stuff, but there's that thing. And then what happens? It creates a disconnect. It ruptures the relationship. It pushes it to the brink. And you at the end of the day, in just economic terms for you, Paul, you don't get shit done. You hurt your productivity because you're not paying attention to the heart. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. You know, you're saying like, it's, not something we love about the values, right? It's like, it's like the same, it's the same language. You have to, you have to know yourself, you have to know your values. And I was thinking about your dad, right? I think also the problem is we think that everybody wants a supervisory position. Like Paul, Paul, you're one, like you don't like supervisory, right? Like that's not his, he's like, but he's, he's always been a leader in his workforce because he's the chief of staff. He's a strategist, right? So there are, I think that's where you have to Renzo Del Castillo: Mm-hmm. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: think about big universe, right? Creating leaders is not just... ⁓ Renzo Del Castillo: No administrative overhead. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: there's a difference between being a manager and being a leader, right? You can supervise people, but that doesn't necessarily always make you a leader. And it's not always the only type of leadership that exists, right? And of course, the best managers are the ones that are leaders. But there's so many other ways to position people and bring out their leadership skills based on what's alignment and their values that's outside of the traditional matrix, right? And yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: to contribute. 100%, 100 % and leaders, just because you're a leader doesn't mean you have nothing left to learn. You need coaches. You need coaches. Like Esther coached me when I was going through something and I always remember it because I have it pasted right here. My purpose is to bridge the gaps between people, building connections and empathy through creation, art, integrity and love. All that stuff, sure I knew, but in that form as a mantra, as a purpose, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: yeah. ⁓ yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: It's easy to lose sight of it when things get difficult and things will always get difficult. It's if you know, you hear people talk about relationships like I know we're going through a hard time, but I just need to get this promotion and then we'll go to Bali and I know we're going to and then we'll get married and then I just need to know it's how are you met? Like there will always be a promotion. There will always be a layoff. There will always be a difficult time. There will always be an acquisition, but how do you manage it? Because that's how you will manage it the entire time. Are you equipped to be able to deal with this and still live your life and still contribute and still be yourself? Because that's the biggest disconnect for me when I wasn't allowed to be myself. Yeah, like I'm not going to go out there and curse. I curse. I'm not going to go out there and curse in front of the, like the commissioner of Medicaid of whatever state, but I need to be genuinely me because that allows people to connect with me. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: and that allows them to want to collaborate with me, which allows me to achieve the objectives that we need to achieve. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. No, it reminds me, you have to be nimble with change. Yeah. You have to be able to embrace it and that when you have to live in the present also, right? Yeah. What were you going to say? You going oh, it made me think of you. It made me think about what he just said. What about it made you think of me? At the end. That's exciting. I like that. I don't know what it is, but I like it. Renzo Del Castillo: Hmm. I'm gonna just hit that up right here. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: But you always have to be growing and changing. ⁓ for sure. For sure. Yeah. And I think it's one of the things that I think that my value of growth is one of the things that I think has made me a good leader because... Part of my growth is seeing everyone else grow. Part of my growth is ⁓ seeing how I can be a leverage point for other people. That's why you like being the right hand, right? That's why the positions that are aligned with you are being the right hand to the leader, right? Because then you're helping them grow and help other people grow. It's kind of like, but it's not exactly it's more strategy than coaching. Yeah. But I like what Ren said that you always you always need to keep learning and adjusting. Right. Like, I mean, I feel like I'm learning every day, right? And I think as you learn more, you realize there's still so much more to learn and figure out. And I love what Ren said too, that when you're stressed, right? When you're stressed, right? Like the, don't, can't access your prefrontal cortex, right? And so it becomes blocked. And so you have to be able to, like you're saying, when you get stressed and you get triggered and all that stuff. So if you don't know yourself, you immediately go into shutting down, worry, you know, all that stuff, fear takes over and then you just, yeah, you can't move forward. So, so I have question. So, so one of the things, so like Ren was talking earlier, I'm, I'm, know that I meant and emotionally keep going back to the whole poetry leadership art linkage. ⁓ yeah, I love his poetry stuff. love- No, you need to talk about the noble thing. I love that in history you said, you know, like what we used to have back in the day. ahead. What was my question? Now I lost my question. No, my- it was more of a point than a question. So, like he talked about how basically art is a reaction that- Renzo Del Castillo: Go ahead. I hate talking about poetry, man, so please stop. Just stop. Yeah, yeah, sure. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: generates a reaction from each person's perspective. And I was thinking about anybody, whoever, for example, would be ⁓ sort of a fly ⁓ in the car on any road trip with us, because we listen to music the whole time. And then we end up like debating the lyrics of all of these songs, right? And what did it mean to you? And the meaning. of shows too. like yesterday we were watching Paul Dark and there was this amazing line and I'm like, Paul, there's like 10 interpretations of that line. You know? That's what we were talking about at the gym this morning. Yeah. So, but it's one of those things like, like I think, I think that for some people it can, you know, I come down to the practical sometimes, right? And I think that for some people it can be scary, intimidating, overwhelming to think about, trying to accept another person's perspective and, and stepping into empathy that way when it doesn't have to be that complicated, right? That it, that sometimes it is, you know, what did you think of this song or what, did that song mean to you? you know, what do you think that, what do you think that, what do you think George meant by that line in the show, you know, or whatever it is, you know? So I... was the other guy, but whatever. But it's that, you know, I would want our listeners to know that... Renzo Del Castillo: Hehehehe Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: that you can be a leader in your household just by asking like songs, asking questions, being curious about the other person. like, and if you have kids, it's asking them to be mirroring that and having them ask questions. it's all of that. Like, I don't want, I don't want people to, you know, I know that we've, you know, we've talked about the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex and all of that. it's, and I like to tie science to everything. But at the same time, It's bringing that also back down, That it's just, it's asking questions, caring what the answers are. and listening with intention really that simple, listening to someone else and like as Ren said, of having empathy. But there is hard science associated with it. And the reason why I bring that up is because everyone thinks that empathy and EQ is soft and it's not. It's like one of the most critical and hardest things that you can learn. We've just like in society called it soft or like, know, our culture has called it soft, but it's actually really hard and it takes work every day. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: It helps with conflict resolution, right? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I love that. So Renz, I want to tie it back to you because I want you to coach our audience, right? So this ⁓ is a tough question. Let's see what you think about it. This was a female, well identifies as female, and says, you know, in this world where, you know, men dominate, I feel this need that I have to change my hair, have to act a certain way. I'm not taking seriously, you know, to be able to transcend in the, as a leader, right? Renzo Del Castillo: Yeah, we suck. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: And so do I just, ⁓ how does that balance like the societal expectations with being true to who I am with my ambition of wanting to be a leader and raise up? So I know it's a very loaded question, but I want to see, Renz, you have the opportunity to coach the audience member on what would you say? Renzo Del Castillo: Girl, just leave him. No, I'm kidding. ⁓ Well, let's break it down by parts, right? So could you just go over the key parts? What I heard was, ⁓ I heard some internalized expectations on what appearance should be in a male-dominated working environment. What were the other pieces? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I hear that too, right? Because I'm just saying it word by word. Yeah, one is this ⁓ has to be like a physical element to being a leader. And then the other part is their society, societal components about gender. And I think a third component is I think that bounds between, I don't know, help me summarize it, right? Authenticity and ambition. Renzo Del Castillo: Mm-hmm. What was the last question that they asked? Just like what they need help with? Just that last part. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah, so how do you stay true to yourself, right? And be true to yourself while balancing the ambition, right? The ambition to be in a leadership role. Renzo Del Castillo: Sure. So where I would start is I went through that, you know, not from a gender perspective, but from what was expected of me. ⁓ And I was being very successful. I'm going to go to me and then I'm going to see how we apply it here. I was being very successful and I was miserable. And I have a very good friend of mine, Kurt, who asked me a question like, What are you passionate about? And as I described myself as an insecure, recovering, people pleasing, high achiever, I couldn't answer him. And I was livid because it was always in relation to someone else. I didn't know myself. So I didn't know what identity I was defending. I didn't know what identity was there. And it took me a while to figure that out. And it was a very difficult thing. A lot of therapy, a lot of self work. And eventually I realized I love helping others as you know, like to break it down to simple or corny as it sounds. just like leaving somewhere better than I found it as a rule. I just, in my life, I enjoy that. That makes me very passionate. Even if it's like organizing toys on a shelf, right? ⁓ And I'm also, I love complex problems and I worked in healthcare. I mean, I love solving puzzles, right? Like brain teasers, all this. I'm always doing it. I'm sure I have some crosswords around me right now. ⁓ And I realized that in healthcare, which I considered a failed system, solve complex problems every day and I get to mentor my team. get to coach my team. So somewhere I was miserable, I suddenly became a place that I really enjoyed being. Now, when it comes, I can't empathize with the gender role. I can sympathize, but I can't empathize. So I would direct the audience member to some, to like, a woman in corporate America who has dealt with this. But what I can say is first of all, you need to truly know yourself and understand where this is coming from. Are these things being imposed to you? Did you grow up with them? Do you believe you can't have your hair this way? Are you showing up? Is there really an environment that's there, right? It could be being reinforced, but it may not necessarily be as strong as you think it is because we make a lot of our own reality. The reason I say this is ho'oponopono, if you're familiar with ho'oponopono, like. I played a role in this. accept it. I forgive myself. I can change it. goes from this happened to me too. I had an agency in causing this and what can I do to change it? So I would recommend. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. What Paul uses- Kudos for saying hoʻoponopono. He loves that one. You've used it in some of our talks. He has used it and I think it is super helpful. And I think what you're also saying too is- no, but go ahead. I'll go back to it. Renzo Del Castillo: It's incredibly helpful. Sure, So ho'oponopono, like do the self-work first. Again, take inventory. Where am I? Did my mom always tell me to wear my hair like this? Like did I grow up with these expectations? Like a girl does this, a guy does this, a man does this, a woman does this, I'm a man who identifies as a woman. Exactly, because you are going to help develop that environment. Okay, so once you have this. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: test your assumptions. Renzo Del Castillo: If you figure out where that is and if there's something you can change, then you can change that. It gives you a little bit of agency. gives you a little bit of momentum. That's the making your bed in the morning. Then take an accurate stock of the place where you're at, right? Because see what the systems are, see how they get work done, see what the culture is. Once you have those two things, you can create a plan to EAE. A, if you understand who you are, chances are you are more comfortable. Like understanding breeds comfort. Right? If you don't know who you are, you're going to be like, I don't know what I'm this. If I could do that, I don't know where I'm going to be. Once you truly understand who you are, you are going to be at least doing part of the work to being comfortable where you are, where you know that I bring value because of who I am and the skills I bring. And I can dress whichever way I want within the realms of like whatever the rules are for that. But you don't have to hide your individuality. If you don't have to put your hair in a ponytail, you don't have to wear this whatever. And if you see that that is being looked down upon or there are true barriers in place, then you then again have agency to find a place that's more aligned with who you are. But now you know who you are, so you're not running away from something. You're running towards something. And that is much more effective because it's actionable. If I know like, I know I don't want to work here anymore versus I know I want to retire at 50 and I want to get $2 million in a TOD account so I can live off the dividends and move to Spain. Okay. If I know that's what I want, I'm going to start saving up, putting money in my TOD little by little, taking actions to get there. And you may, it may be, it's still difficult to get there, but you're going to be in a better position than you were. So to sum up, I hope this is helpful. ⁓ audience member number one, but know yourself, forgive yourself for anything you have to do. Have an understanding of where you are, where these things come from. Understand your environment, truly map it. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: think it's excellent. Renzo Del Castillo: Show up as yourself because you're going to start feeling comfortable within whatever is professional. And if that place is still preventing you from moving forward, find a place that's more aligned with where you are because and I know it's easier said than done, but if you believe you can't find another place, I'm going to tell you right now. I rarely say this, but you're wrong. You're wrong because work. Wrong. ⁓ tonight. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: grubs. Renzo Del Castillo: tonight, the new season is debuting tonight. ⁓ But work is the only place that makes you feel like you're expendable and indispensable at the same time. How many people have you heard say, ⁓ my god, I need to work 80 hours because only I can do that or I'll get fired. So either only you can do that or you're gonna get fired. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I know. Renzo Del Castillo: How many people have you heard say, ⁓ my god, I need to work 80 hours because only I can do that or I'll get fired. So only you can do that or you're gonna get fired. Which one is it? Right? We're all expendable. it's just like in terms of work, like somebody else can come in and do it, but what you bring has value. So, hopefully that was helpful. At least it's a place to start. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah, I loved it. I loved your answer. ⁓ So hopefully this was really useful. I thank you for coaching the individual. I mean, I can bring in the gender perspective. I thought you covered it really well. I don't think I would have said anything different. think I went through that also when I moved to my director role and moved up the chain. The only thing I could add to that, that a lot of it was my own assumptions. That's why I think you covered rents. I mean, there are, course, I think this. Renzo Del Castillo: Yeah, but it exists guys. exists. Sexism exists and all that stuff, which is why I recommend. Yes, which is why I recommend like maybe it's not Esther, but if you have a professional in your life that you consider a mentor, talk to them because they will give you the bespoke answer, right? Like this is general. Now target it for you because I, I, I definitely think I could provide like, can, I can give some clarity, but it would be more on a one-on-one basis the way we described it at the beginning. But in general, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Let's be real. Yeah. Exactly. in your industry. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, and like you said, it's also industry rules and there's like corridor, reputation and industry little secrets and things that the best thing you can do is talk to someone that you admire in the organization that you could ask like, hey, give me the low down on the... Renzo Del Castillo: Solid. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: you know, like what are the underlying things that maybe people don't, they only say like person to person. But I made a lot of assumptions too in that time. And then when I learned really, had a like what's really underneath the surface, what can I really, how much can I bring of myself in there, then that all changed. And I think it was also letting go of all that. Actually, I'm gonna come in as I am and test it. If people react badly to it, then you know what I mean? Then I'll change or if it's not getting business done. Renzo Del Castillo: Mm-hmm. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: really, right? Test your assumptions. ⁓ But really the bigger work, that's why I loved your answer, Renz, is really like the confidence is not going to come from, you can put on the best, most expensive outfit in the world, but if you're not good inside, it's not going to show outside, right? So no matter what outfit you wear, yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: It's why I started wearing suits. I started wearing suits because when I started being a consultant, this was 2010, 2010 to 2014. I look younger than I am. I'm 42 years old. Please give me all the, know, alagame. But no, but like I have gray hair now and all that stuff I grew into it, but I looked really young and I have a deep voice. So before that, it wasn't FaceTime, it wasn't Zoom, it was a phone call. So I would go and then I would go on assignment and they're like, hey, Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: What? No! Renzo Del Castillo: They thought I was my own intern. They thought I was my assistant and it was me. And then I had to spend the week after a week. They're like, okay, he does get work. So I started wearing suits to look older. Now I wear suits cause I like them. Right. But before it, I was putting on an air to try to navigate that easier. And it was, while it was a bandaid, it was just a crutch. Like it wasn't, I had to figure out who I was and be comfortable in a room to be able to say one of the most powerful things I can say in a room is I don't know the answer, but I can. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: I can go back and research and work with the team to figure it out. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: I remember when I went to the field, right? And I knew because I was the only woman there, right? And everyone was a man and they were all staring at me. They're like, how can the director be a female? And I remember and I how I found my way to like cut through it is I just said the elephant in the room. I'm like, I know you're expecting a white male and it's me. But guess what? I am going to I am going to listen to you, bring your concerns. And I have a hell of, you know, like, you know, I have good traction and good things. So now that we've, you know, address that, let's get working, right? And if this bothers you enough, feel free to exit, right? But it was like, I had to just address it, because everyone's there. It's like, OK, let's move on, right? But you have to go through that process yourself. But I love what you said. What would you say, I thought would add? Not really. I thought Renz's answer. Renz, were spot on. I think it's fascinating. Obviously, I don't have the gender lens, the gender component. I know you saw me go it. But no, for sure. But still, as Ren said, I can sympathize, but I cannot fully empathize, right? But what I thought about was, in my past life, in my past career, I was a professor. And I was the professor who... every day, and it was California, right? Every day I wore flip flops and shorts and a Hawaiian shirt. Exactly. And that was my uniform. You know what I mean? And it was fascinating because at first I think that my boss was a little upset. I taught in the business school and it wasn't business school attire. And I know he didn't like it. But at the same time, there comes a point where I had the highest ratings. you know, I had there was absolutely nothing tied to my performance that was related to how it is that I would come into the into the office every morning, you know, so I had a Swarthmore professor that was the same way you went in flip flops and shorts and Hawaiian shirt every day. And I remember students were like, oh, but then he was like, he was like the math genius, right? So funny are assumptions. Yeah. But anyways, I love Renz. Thank you. Thank you for all the nuggets you gave in this show. I mean, you gave like so much great nuggets to our listeners about one. I think like we can summarize it in three points is when you have control of your I think like how I would summarize what you said is like you have full control of your life and you you can not everything's growth. You can become a leader. And if you're a company, you can train leaders if you invest in it. And that leadership is is is fluid, right? It's something that we can created. Renzo Del Castillo: Hmm Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Empathy is a key part of it. And anything else you want to I think the one thing I would add is exactly where Ren started, is that leadership is servant leadership. Yes, it's a being there's a strong service component to it. Yeah, so it's beautiful. Renzo Del Castillo: Could I leave you guys with just one more component? Just the last one. Also, what you think are your greatest failures are your biggest lessons. I'm going to share one that happened to me around the time of Black Lives Matter because that's when my dad died. My dad died in 2020. He went in the middle of all the protests at the end of May. And my dad had pancreatic cancer. And they told him he had three months. He ended up living three years. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Of course! Yes. Yes. Renzo Del Castillo: doing kettlebells in the backyard, living his best life for two and a half years, getting to know his grandchildren. Then it finally took him. And I was, I was at work and you know, I took time off and it was right in the middle of the protest to go take care of all that stuff. And I had an employee, a team member really, who is a friend now. And on her one-on-one when I got back, She's like, look, I'm I know this is going to sound horrible, but I need to say this. Nobody is providing leadership right now. You know, she was she's black, right? She's African American. And she's like, and I thought you would. And I know your dad died and I know you're not around and I know you're dealing with all this stuff, but I just thought you would. And I was like. ⁓ Like what? ⁓ And then I so what I did was I'm like, OK, like I didn't I'm like, listened to her. I told her like, please don't, I want to hear it, but I was still kind of like loopy at that moment. You know, like my father had just passed away. It was handling all that stuff. And then I took a moment and I realized, ⁓ man, I have the privilege of being able to mourn my dad away from it as it's happening right down the street. So I called ⁓ two members of my team. They were older than me, but they were in my team and they were African American, a woman. and a man and I asked her, like, look, can't, what I told you, can't only sympathize, right? ⁓ You know, I'm, I'm, I'm Hispanic, but I'm like white passing, right? Like whenever I do the, the, when we have to fill out race, like I have to put white, like they've told me in the past, like put white. So it's like, I, I, I can't empathize. And I'm like, I'm olive skinned. I don't really feel that way, but it is what it is. And she's like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well now, now that we know, like, do we really have to, but when we're growing up and filling out college applications and all that stuff, and it's something that it just didn't resonate. I'm like, I can't, I can't empathize. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yeah, don't click that. Yeah, I know, I used to be. Renzo Del Castillo: What can I do? And she, she told me, look, I know it's charged. We know you're a good leader, but here are some things that you can do. And then I talked to the other person and he's like, here's some things that you can do. And I implemented it. And then I, I did notice when I had my head on straight that they weren't talking about it and people were scared. People were angry. People were dealing with it. So I started talking about it. And because I had built up cache to be able to say these things, then my team was doing better. There's a second part to this. That year I got the best reviews that I had received up to that point. And my boss who is a dear friend now, he was always a dear friend, but again, I don't work directly for him anymore. I almost yelled at him. I'm like, you're wrong. There's no way I must've dropped something. And he's like being very patient with me, very patient with me. And then he told me, you know what, Renz? Why don't we talk tomorrow? Let's sleep on it. I'm like, okay. It was the weekend actually. Let's talk on Monday. So we were talking on Monday and I'm like, aha, I dropped this, this, this, and this, and this. It's just my team that picked it up. And he looked at me, he leaned in cause he's like six foot four. He's way taller than I am. I'm six foot. He leaned in, goes, who built the team? Why do I bring those two stories? Well, they're connected. They happen at the same time. I was, I don't want to say I was failing as a leader, but I was not, I was not being the best leader I could be. Yes, I was dealing with my own personal stuff, but I still could listen while I was there. I could have been engaged. Right. And the other part was even when I was not succeed, even when I was failing as a leader, the work that I had done, the discipline. help lead me, guide me to some of the best reviews because I wasn't in my mind, I was still being reviewed as an individual contributor. No, it's like who built the team? I'm like, ⁓ I did the foundational work. I did the foundational work. So why do I say that? Because what I considered a huge failure, I felt like I had let my team down. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Right. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: Not only did I course correct the foundation, the equity that I built with them allowed me to have those conversations with them, allowed them to reach out to me and feel comfortable to say that to me in that moment. Not a lot of people would, they would probably say like, fuck this guy, I F this guy by the water, edit that out. You know, like screw this guy by the water cooler. But they were able to say that to me, that's a success. And then also as a leader overall, in the middle of one of my most difficult moments. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Mm-hmm Renzo Del Castillo: I got some of the best reviews I've ever gotten. So I want to share that last piece. When you think you are struggling, when you think you are not succeeding, when you think you are failing, you are probably the most successful you can be because it's preparing you for the future. Be kind to yourself. That's the last thing I want to say. Be kind to yourself because if not, you can't have kindness for others. Not really. So that's the last part. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. And I'll just end with this reflection. Like, I know we've all made mistakes at work. I think what you just said was such a great thing because it allows you to see your blind spots and then course correct. I know I've sent tons of newsletters that I had blind spots because I'm all vision and I don't communicate my vision sometimes. That's why I'm always like, guys, I need help because that's not my forte. My forte is vision and make that vision a reality. But I need people to create the systems processes and communicate where we're going and where we're Renzo Del Castillo: I've read them. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: going and how it's coming. And sometimes when you recognize your blind spot, you can also hire better. I remember I realized you don't do it alone. And then I got a great deputy, which she's still a close friend of mine, that she's a half combination of me. So she can communicate the steps, but understands the need for the vision. And it was perfect. And our team was like, then it was like, ⁓ Then we like, then we saw it. And so sometimes just remembering you don't have to do it alone. It's like you, in your example, they helped you, right? You got the answers, they helped you come up with this. Renzo Del Castillo: Nothing without my team. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Exactly. And there's people who compliment. And if anything, maybe that's what we leave with the message, right? It's not alone. And I think there's so much to be said also about the culture that you created, because it's not trivial to say that they didn't just like talk smack behind your back at the water cooler. They actually came to you. Well, but in addition, they came to you, it sounds, and they didn't feel exhausted by it, extracted by it, tokenized by it. Renzo Del Castillo: I'm sure they did, but yes, yes, yes. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: you know what mean? like, and that you acted on it. So there was a lot of psychological safety you had there. And that's one of the biggest assets of having a high, you know, EQ team. But I definitely appreciate the message of when you think you are messing up, is your time to shine in a lot of ways. Exactly. I think that's amazing. It's how you respond to the challenge that matters. We can end with that story with Edison. I just told Paul this yesterday, right? factory burned like Thomas Edison like 1914. million dollars burned to the ground. His prototypes and it was was 23 million dollars then then right you know and it was like his life and he and he said when it burned down he told his team well our at least our our mistakes are gone now we can we can build again like knowing what we know now and I was like wow I was like Paul I need I need to aspire to get there you know to get to that point where I've lost all Renzo Del Castillo: Yeah, yes, that's very important. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: everything and can be like, well maybe we can keep going. Good thing we got rid of that. Good thing we got rid of all that stuff. Remember you wanted to purge? There we go. But I think that attitude's key, right? I think Ren's your example talks about that, right? It's how you respond to it. Beautiful. I love that ending. So I think we're pretty much winding down. I wanted to give an opportunity, Renz, in case there's anything you want to plug. I know you've got your book. You have your own podcast as well. I know if you want to talk about that for a minute. So how do people get in touch with you, listen to more of the inspiring messages you have and all that stuff? Renzo Del Castillo: Well, the first thing I want to plug is just what I needed this little podcast that I'm, you know, involved with. Well, at least for today. No, I love your podcast. I think it's very insightful. I've heard all of your episodes. I really enjoyed the boundaries episode, as you can tell that resonated with me and ⁓ people in my life are hearing it too. So I'm going to give that a shout out. You can find me on Instagram at at rangelodelcastillo.author. ⁓ And that's where I kind of post about. You know, my poetry book, is called Still, as I mentioned, just like SD and Amazon bestseller. ⁓ it's available in hardcover paperback, the audio book I did myself because I can talk like this and, ⁓ and the Kindle version and the Kindle version is 99 cents. It will always be 99 cents. And the reason is I think art should be accessible and I think art should be available. ⁓ so if you want to, if you have 99, I could, if I could make it free, would. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Yes. ⁓ Renzo Del Castillo: But if you want to read a book of poetry, you can start with me and then go off wherever that leads you. But at least, you know, 99 cents, can reach it. So that's very important for me. I do a lot of standup events, a lot of open mics, and I help a lot of ⁓ open mics get off the ground here in Miami. ⁓ Big shout out to the Miami Poetry Club, to Papa Poetry, to Wild Bloom Poetry in Fort Lauderdale. They're expanding as well, just creating spaces where people can can express their ideas and collaborate ⁓ is just very important for me. So that's part of something that I do. So here in Miami, just look those up. You can find those on Instagram. I also have a partner. His name is Scott Raven, Scott 3T's Raven. People know him by his rap name, Scott, which is with 3T's. And we do a podcast called Real Poetry where we both love movies. We both love poetry. He's a very accomplished poet himself. You can find him on on Instagram at Scott Raven with three T's and he has books all over Amazon. He's performed all over the world. He's a living as a touring poet. He co-founded Mayhem Poets, which is a big group that goes all around the country. And we do a podcast called Real Poetry, R-E-E-L, poetry because it's about film. We just thought there's so many movies that have aspects of poetry. We should talk about it, but what we like to do is invite, for the most part, local artists, local poets to come and they give us a movie. Like Casey, Casey Penn, or actually now Casey Rimes, Kenny Rimes came in and he did Love Jones. I don't know if you remember Love Jones, but I had forgotten it. I love Love Jones. And it's all about the slam poetry movement that came from Chicago to that. And there's a lot of history, but there's a great movie too. And we break it down. We use it to talk about the artists, the guests, life story, their, how they approach work, their views on art, tie that into the film. And then we end it with original poems performed. So it turns into a spoken. Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: That's a great movie. Yeah. Renzo Del Castillo: to an open mic at the end, an original poem, at least one from each of us on the film. So that's been doing relatively well, actually. I don't want to say I'm surprised because Scott is awesome, but it's cool. It's been really cool. We have ⁓ a great poet by name of ⁓ Sims that's coming on for Black History Month. We're going to do Do the Right Thing. She convinced me that Do the Right Thing had to do with poetry in terms of the soliloquy about good and evil, right? Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: It's really good. Renzo Del Castillo: that comes from a Night of the Hunter as well. So really, really awesome stuff. And ⁓ yeah, and also, yeah, I talked a lot about leadership. So I'm a professional. You can find me, you can find corporate Renz, who is still Renzo by the way, right? Like I'm not, people have asked me, are you a poet? Are you a corporate ⁓ executive? What are you? I'm like, I'm Renzo. I've learned how to show up authentically wherever I go. So you can find me authentically on LinkedIn under Renzo Del Castillo. ⁓ also on Facebook, Tik Tok, mostly for the podcast. Cause I'm, I'm, you know, I don't know the Tiki Taki anymore. It's not, it's not really, it's not really my thing. ⁓ you know, LinkedIn threads and you can find me there, but, ⁓ but most of all, one of the things you can find on LinkedIn, one of the things I'm very proud of is just being a board member for B act change movement, the nonprofit that I'm very, very grateful to have been involved with, with my great friends here that have brought me on because Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: You Renzo Del Castillo: There's a genuine desire to make, leave the world better off than we found it. And that aligns with my value. As I mentioned, that's what I'm passionate about. And I love you guys. I'm eternally grateful that you're in my life. So thank you very Esther Zeledon And Paul Rivera: Same. Thanks so much to you. Thanks so much to all of our listeners. And I hope that this was just what you needed. Bye. Renzo Del Castillo: Is that a tagline? I love the tagline.