Latest / The Virtual Couch / Pathological Kindness: When Caring, Trying, and Empathizing Too Much Can Be Bad For Your Health

Transcript

Pathological Kindness: When Caring, Trying, and Empathizing Too Much Can Be Bad For Your Health · The Virtual Couch

0:00
Music.
0:22
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 427 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
0:28
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified Mindful Habit coach,
0:32
and I'm excited to be here today.
0:34
And we're going to get right to today's topic. Of course, I would love for you
0:38
to sign up for my newsletter.
0:39
Go to TonyOverbay.com or follow me on social media, Instagram at virtual.couch,
0:45
TikTok at virtualcouch, Facebook, I think that's Tony Overbay,
0:48
licensed marriage and family therapist, all those wonderful things.
0:51
And if you like the podcast, if you ever get the chance, please review or rate, subscribe.
0:57
YouTube, actually go there. And the virtual couch is on YouTube.
1:01
I put most of the videos up there.
1:02
And then there's a lot of YouTube shorts that touch on things that aren't necessarily
1:06
things that come from the podcast as well. And there's all the promotion.
1:09
Let's get to today because this is one of these topics that I just enjoy so much.
1:13
We're going to talk about relationships and we're going to talk about people
1:16
and their different roles and relationships. partnerships and I think the best
1:20
way to do it is I'm going to dive into an email.
1:23
The email is from a listener named Cleo and they let me know that that was not
1:28
their real name and their partner is not their real name as well.
1:31
But her story, it touches on a lot of concepts that I want to go over.
1:36
I'm going to read the email in chunks and we'll take a lot of time here to break
1:42
down as much of it as I can.
1:44
So let me start by reading the letter and then we're going to go break it down
1:48
in detail. She says the letter. It is an email.
1:50
I don't even know if they're referred to as letters anymore. She sent me an email.
1:54
So Cleo said, Dear Tony, I'm so grateful for your podcast, all of them.
1:58
I've been listening to your Waking Up to Narcissism podcast for over a year
2:02
and I continue to feel like you must be following me and my husband around because
2:06
of the things that you describe.
2:07
They're so much like what I am living through. This might seem strange,
2:10
but I recently said a phrase that you often say that you don't know what you
2:14
don't know, followed by I was just being and doing.
2:17
And my friend started laughing and saying, oh, you listened to the virtual couch.
2:21
And she said, I was confused. But we eventually realized that we both listened
2:24
to you and weren't really aware of the other podcasts.
2:28
So I started listening to the virtual couch and I love it.
2:31
But my friend is in a bad marriage and she had no idea, or at least she doesn't
2:35
want to admit that your waking up to narcissism podcast might apply to her marriage.
2:39
So I just wanted to share my story and then see if that might be something you
2:43
could cover on the virtual couch.
2:45
Because a lot of women, and I'm sure men, are in bad relationships,
2:49
but they are only looking at them through the I-can-fix-it or the virtual couch
2:53
lens, when I think the waking-up-to-narcissism lens might be really helpful. So here's my story.
2:59
I've always been the nice girl. Growing up, my mom was always on edge,
3:02
and I learned early on, if I was perfect and kind, I could keep the peace.
3:06
I became the family peacemaker, always smoothing things over and making sure
3:09
that everybody else was okay.
3:10
I thought this was just who I was, but now I'm realizing it might be why I'm
3:14
struggling so much in my marriage.
3:16
I met Ray five years ago, and at first, everything was amazing.
3:19
He was charming and attentive.
3:20
He seemed to need me so much. I felt like I'd finally found somebody who appreciated my kindness.
3:25
But over time, things changed. Ray's moods became unpredictable.
3:29
He'd be loving one minute and cold the next, and I found myself constantly trying
3:32
to figure out what he needed. And I felt like I was always walking on eggshells.
3:36
I've always been sensitive. My friends joke that I can feel somebody's mood
3:39
from a mile away, but with Ray, it's kind of exhausting.
3:42
I feel every shift in his emotions, and I'm always trying to make things better.
3:45
The problem is I'm so focused on his feelings that I do realize I've lost touch with my own.
3:50
Lately, I've been thinking about leaving, but it's so hard. There are moments
3:54
when Ray is sweet and loving and I cling to those thinking, see, he does care.
3:57
So if I just try harder, maybe things will get better.
3:59
But then he'll say something cruel or dismissive and I'm right back to square one.
4:03
The strangest part is even when Ray hurts me, I find myself making excuses for him.
4:08
I think he must just be in pain to act this way. Or if I love him enough,
4:11
he'll heal and things will improve.
4:13
And I assume he feels things as deeply as I do, that his love for me must be
4:18
just as intense as mine is for him.
4:20
But more and more, I'm wondering if that's true.
4:23
I've tried to talk to Ray about our problems, but he either dismisses my concerns
4:26
or turns them around on me. He'll say I'm too sensitive or that I'm imagining things.
4:30
Sometimes it'll be nice for a while after these conversations and I'll think,
4:33
okay, we're making progress.
4:35
But then things go back to the way they were and I feel like I'm losing my mind.
4:38
I know logically that this relationship isn't healthy, but every time I think
4:42
about leaving, I feel guilty.
4:43
And I worry about how Ray will manage without me. I remember the good times
4:47
and I wonder if I'm giving up too easily.
4:49
It's like there's a war in my head between what I know and what I feel.
4:54
I have several friends who've been telling me for years that I need to put myself
4:56
first for once, but the idea just feels so foreign, almost wrong.
5:00
I've spent my whole life taking care of others, and the thought of prioritizing
5:04
my own needs makes me feel selfish and uncomfortable.
5:06
And I'm starting to realize that always being kind isn't always being kind to
5:11
myself, but breaking free from this pattern feels impossible.
5:14
How do I start putting myself first when I've never done it before?
5:18
How do I know if what I'm feeling is love or if I'm just in a trauma bond.
5:22
I'm hoping that by sharing my story, maybe you can help others who might be
5:25
in similar situations. Maybe there are other nice people out there who don't
5:28
realize that they're stuck in unhealthy patterns.
5:30
Thanks for all you do. Your podcasts have been a lifeline. Sincerely, Cleo.
5:34
That covers so many things that I think maybe you can see now why I thought
5:38
that this would be, it would be the perfect muse to talk about.
5:41
So I want to break this down almost line by line and pull out the pieces that
5:46
I think will help people.
5:48
And I like how she said there's the virtual couch lens, which I think it really
5:51
is learning about four pillars of a connected conversation.
5:54
Lots of different psychology topics. Do I have ADHD?
5:57
Am I seeking validation? And then over on the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast,
6:01
and I realized that there are people that listen to the virtual couch that have
6:04
never ventured over into that world because of the very word itself, narcissism.
6:08
But I can't say enough that what we're doing on the Waking Up to Narcissism
6:11
side is taking that word because it's used a lot.
6:15
And one of the things I did early on in that podcast was acknowledged that narcissistic
6:20
personality disorder is maybe three to five percent of the population,
6:24
but it's thrown around as if it were 70 or 80 percent.
6:27
Everybody's ex is a narcissist, everybody's boss is a narcissist,
6:30
everybody's spouse at times is narcissistic.
6:32
But what I defined early was we're actually all just emotionally immature.
6:38
And that's a pretty normal part of being a human being because that does fit
6:42
into the we don't know what we don't know.
6:45
And it takes a lot of work and effort to really take in new data and information.
6:49
We may say that we like to, and we do, but think about that.
6:53
It's a lot easier to take it in when it's pretty comfortable.
6:55
And the growth actually comes through the discomfort. One of the key points
7:00
about differentiation, which is this need that we have to maintain connections
7:05
with others while holding on to our own sense of self.
7:09
And if we don't even really know who we are, as cliched as that sounds,
7:12
then we're continually showing up in an emotionally inconsistent way.
7:16
And when that's happening on both sides of the relationship,
7:18
then you can just see that over time, it starts to feel like there isn't much
7:22
of anything that we can talk about that isn't just easy to talk about.
7:25
So her story touches on a lot of different concepts that I think will help you
7:30
if you're looking at things through whether it is the virtual couch lens of
7:34
really, what can I do to fix this?
7:35
Or even maybe the waking up to narcissism lens where it's, okay,
7:39
we're both emotionally immature.
7:40
I can look at how I'm showing up, but I can acknowledge that a lot of the times
7:44
when I'm trying to show up, my spouse is taking the information that I'm putting
7:48
out there and then turn it against me and making me feel at times like I am crazy.
7:53
Cleo starts by describing her childhood. that she said, I've always been the
7:55
nice girl. Growing up, my mom was always on edge.
7:58
And I learned early on that if I was perfect and kind, I could keep the peace.
8:02
Now I have to jump in with humor right away.
8:04
I love when somebody says that they are a fan or they listen a lot and they
8:09
say a lot of the things that I do find myself saying.
8:12
But it is interesting because I can't help when I hear when she said,
8:15
I've always been the nice girl and my mom was always on edge,
8:18
that I go back to that all or nothing black or white thinking.
8:21
And when I'm doing couples therapy, I do bring not even gentle,
8:25
pretty aggressive awareness when somebody is saying he always or she always or she never.
8:30
Because you watch as a couples therapist when as soon as the other person says
8:33
she was always this way, that the other person is immediately,
8:37
you can almost see them tune out a little bit because in their mind they're
8:40
thinking, okay, I can think of times when I wasn't.
8:42
So even just the semantics can become important at times where I feel like often this is the case.
8:49
Because often, okay, I'm a little more interested.
8:52
Or if somebody says, it's been three months since he told me that he loves me.
8:56
And if the guy's thinking, that's not true. It's actually only been two and
8:59
a half, which is not the point.
9:01
So I just think that that one's interesting. But she says, if I could keep the
9:05
peace, I was perfect and kind.
9:06
I could keep the peace. I became the family peacemaker, always smoothing things
9:10
over and making sure everybody was okay.
9:12
I thought this was just who I was, but now I'm realizing it might be why I'm
9:16
struggling so much in my marriage.
9:18
And it is fascinating when you look at that her view of self is that this is
9:23
my job to take care of everybody.
9:25
And I think so many people, especially, and I know having grown up with a stay-at-home
9:30
home mom. My wife's a stay-at-home mom.
9:32
And that work is incredible and amazing.
9:34
And I think, and I'm not just saying this, but it doesn't get its due.
9:38
Because I think it's just, you're there all the time. It's like you're at work constantly.
9:42
And I know that then a dad can come in and now I get him for a few hours and
9:46
maybe on a weekend. And I'm saying that as if I'm divorced. I'm not.
9:51
But if my wife needs to run some errands, I remember growing up,
9:54
we had four kids. They were all two years apart.
9:56
And then I would get there and basically just get to shake them up and watch
9:59
them run around and then when she comes home help unload groceries
10:02
or do whatever that looks like and say they were easy and the
10:05
immature version of me thinks man that's kind of fun i wish i could do that
10:08
all day that's what the immature person will say but so when somebody just feels
10:12
like that is their whole sense of self or purpose is to then just give up themselves
10:17
for these other little people it's so admirable it's so incredible it's there's
10:21
a part where it's so necessary necessary,
10:23
but then I think at the expense at times of truly still holding on to your own sense of self.
10:29
And I don't even know if that can be changed or explained early on because it's
10:34
part of that we don't know what we don't know when we're young and having kids.
10:37
But with Cleo's situation, I think that this is where we get the origin story
10:42
of what I like to call the pathologically kind person.
10:46
And I'm going to spend a little time with this because I use this phrase is
10:49
often over in the waking up the narcissism world, where there's often this pathologically
10:53
kind person who is finding themselves in a relationship with a more emotionally immature person.
10:57
And as a friend of the show and an author of Human Magnet Syndrome,
11:01
Ross Rosenberg says in his book, that forms a human magnet.
11:05
And this concept of Human Magnet Syndrome is very real, where the relationship
11:09
almost becomes breakup resistant.
11:11
Let's talk about pathological kindness. Imagine somebody who's always putting
11:14
others first, even to their own detriment, even when it hurts them.
11:18
That is the pathologically kind person.
11:20
It's as if they are the superhero of niceness, but I don't necessarily think
11:24
it's so super for them because people that play that role,
11:28
the pathologically kind person, they've often grown up in families where they
11:33
had to be the peacekeeper or where they had to even be perfect to keep the peace.
11:37
Maybe they had a parent who was always upset and they learned,
11:39
okay, if I can be super nice, that was the way I can calm things down.
11:44
Or if I can be a perfectionist, if I can never get anything wrong,
11:47
then maybe I can diffuse some of this anger or frustration of my parents and
11:51
they will find me and I will bring them joy.
11:54
It's like they become the family's emotional little firefighter.
11:58
And then I don't think I've spent any time in the past talking about how significant
12:03
it is to add the word pathology to something like kindness.
12:07
Because if you're aware, familiar, the word pathology comes from this Greek
12:10
word pathos, which means suffering or disease.
12:15
And then you've got logos, and that means the study of.
12:18
If you look at this from a medical context, pathology often refers to the study
12:22
of disease and then how they impact you, how they affect your body.
12:25
But in psychology, I think also in just the behavioral sciences,
12:30
pathology is often used to describe patterns of behavior or even patterns of
12:34
thoughts or emotions that can be a little bit outside the norm or they can even
12:39
be maladaptive, they can be harmful, and they can cause distress. stress.
12:42
So, now when you put those together, pathological to describe a behavior or
12:46
any trait, what we're really saying is that that trait, that behavior is persistent
12:51
and it's habitual. So, it's pretty consistent.
12:54
But it also implies that it's extreme or it might be a little bit exaggerated
12:58
beyond what is considered typical or normal, which I know sometimes I play the
13:03
normal police, sometimes I think who am I to play the normal police.
13:05
But the key is that it can can become harmful or detrimental to the person.
13:09
So here's this trait that is a wonderful trait, but then it can be to excess.
13:16
And then when somebody has this pathology, there's a little bit of resistance
13:20
to change, even if it's causing them problems.
13:23
So if you look at the concept of somebody that's pathologically kind,
13:26
if we combine those words together, now we're describing a pattern of kindness
13:29
that has been taken to an extreme and it's persistent and it's actually potentially can be harmful.
13:36
When I'm working with somebody that identifies as pathologically kind,
13:40
honestly, the last thing I'm trying to say is that we need to knock the kindness out of them.
13:44
But has that trait been overused or overextended to that person's detriment?
13:50
If you really look at why this concept then of understanding pathology around
13:54
something like kindness, and we'll talk about it with other things too,
13:57
it's because there's a few points that I think need to be brought up.
14:00
One is excessiveness, because it indicates that this kindness is often taken
14:04
to an almost unhealthy extreme where it can zap your own sense of self.
14:08
And while kindness is a positive trait, when it becomes pathological,
14:12
it's not balanced or it can start to become unhealthy.
14:16
And then there's also feeling of self-neglect because a pathologically kind
14:20
person is prioritizing others' needs to the point of neglecting their own well-being.
14:25
And I know that can be a balancing act because when you have little people running around.
14:29
You can't quite say, okay, I need to take some me time.
14:33
You guys just chill out. If you're a two or three-year-old, their version of
14:37
chilling out is, I don't know, playing in the stove or running out into traffic.
14:41
I understand that this isn't an all-or-nothing thinking.
14:45
And then typically the person that would be viewed as pathologically kind,
14:50
they do have a lack of boundaries.
14:52
And I think this is because they didn't see those modeled growing up.
14:56
They will struggle to set and maintain healthy boundaries and
14:59
that will often allow others to take advantage of them and over
15:02
on the waking up the narcissism side i talk often
15:05
about these five rules of interacting with an emotionally immature person the
15:08
first one is self-care self-care is not selfish raise that emotional baseline
15:11
and the second one is to get your phd in gaslighting know when somebody is causing
15:16
you to feel pretty crazy about something you're pretty certain of the third
15:19
one is get out of unproductive conversations the fourth one is learn to to set healthy boundaries,
15:22
but that's where I try to spend time differentiating what a boundary is versus an ultimatum.
15:27
Because often we think that we're setting a boundary, but really we're giving an ultimatum.
15:31
I need you to stop talking to me that way. Well, to the emotionally immature.
15:34
The little kid or the adult, you just showed them your buttons.
15:38
This is what's important to me. So the boundary is actually,
15:40
if you talk to me that way, then here's the consequence.
15:44
And with an adult, it might be that I'm going to leave, but,
15:46
or with a kid, if you talk to me that way, then you are, I don't know,
15:50
you're not going to get any dessert.
15:52
That's not one that really fits, but I think you see where I'm going there.
15:55
And the fifth thing is that you'll never cause that person to have the aha moment
15:59
or the epiphany, which is very significant because too often that pathologically
16:02
kind person is in this position where, no, I will take the ownership of this.
16:06
I will fix it. Let me do the research.
16:08
Let me go to the therapist. Let me read the books. Then I will tell you what I think would help.
16:12
But to the emotionally mature, they're saying, oh, oh, you are telling me you
16:16
think what I'm doing is wrong, and then that's the fuel they need.
16:19
So now, oh, I know what to do with that. Well, actually, you're wrong,
16:21
and I'm right, and I need to go in this one-up position because that's how I
16:25
feel like I'm alive or that I matter.
16:28
And then to the world of the pathologically kind, there are some underlying
16:30
issues here because it does stem from deep-seated issues like lower self-esteem
16:35
or this fear of abandonment or maybe even some unresolved trauma in childhood or even as an adult.
16:41
And there's a little bit of compulsive nature here too because the kindness
16:44
becomes almost a compulsive behavior rather than a balanced expression of care
16:49
and this is where it can almost look a little bit like ocd because if you think
16:55
about what ocd is when somebody has this obsession it causes them to feel uncomfortable.
17:00
Let's go with the classic washing of hands. If they're afraid of getting sick
17:03
and germs are the vehicle and they see germs everywhere.
17:06
And so if they touch things, now they think, oh my gosh, I've got germs on me.
17:09
And that causes a lot of anxiety, a lot of discomfort.
17:12
That becomes the obsession. So the compulsion is to wash hands and that is to
17:16
alleviate that discomfort. Now, unfortunately, with OCD, really,
17:20
it will just come back again and again.
17:21
But when you look at kindness almost as a compulsive behavior,
17:25
then is the discomfort there and that someone else is struggling or someone
17:31
didn't finish their homework, somebody forgot to bring their lunch to school.
17:34
And so then that causes me to feel anxious or feel uncomfortable. comfortable.
17:39
So what's the compulsive behavior that I can do to get rid of that?
17:42
Then I will take care of it. I will do whatever it takes. I will be that kind.
17:46
I will put my needs and wishes to the side and I will go take care of this person.
17:51
So that compulsive nature is pretty fascinating with that.
17:54
And there is a little bit of enablement here because the pathologically kind
17:58
person can inadvertently, I think that's the key word, enable some negative behavior.
18:03
And because that kind person is starting to shield others from the consequences of their actions.
18:09
And I am guilty as all can be on this. This is not me saying,
18:12
here's a ton of examples where I sat with my own discomfort and let my kids fail.
18:17
And that's one of the toughest things, I think. I give this example of,
18:21
yeah, somebody has said they forgot to do a school work project.
18:24
Man, combo pack of ADHD, impulsivity, a deadline, the dopamine dump of a deadline,
18:30
line, wanting validation.
18:31
All of a sudden, oh, let's go. 10 o'clock at night, this thing's due at midnight or tomorrow.
18:35
This is when I work best. So I will actually now get validation from my kid.
18:38
I will rescue them from a situation. I'll pat myself on the back and feel like
18:42
the world's greatest dad.
18:43
But then what do they do? Then do they take that now and say,
18:47
gosh, I got to get better at keeping track of assignments or I need to really
18:50
start using a planner now?
18:53
Or do they just feel like okay that's done and
18:56
and i'm gonna get a grade even and this
19:00
will but the pathological kindness also will lead to difficulty in
19:02
the relationship because this is this can lead to imbalanced relationships where
19:07
that pathologically kind person is constantly giving without receiving to the
19:11
point of where then when they need something that is not what the family's used
19:15
to so then everyone else is busy right now and i hear that story over and over again in my office of
19:21
people that that is all they do is give to others.
19:24
So when they need something, there isn't anybody there that is willing to give back.
19:29
And I think often that's because we find ourselves in these situations,
19:32
these systems, family systems, where we fall into this role.
19:36
And the role often of a mom, a pathologically kind mom, is that I'll just take care of everything.
19:41
Or nice guy syndrome dad, where, okay, I don't like the discomfort of saying
19:46
no, and people are asking for things constantly.
19:49
So I'll just, I'll figure it out. I'll work more. I'll do that.
19:52
And maybe even, maybe they'll all appreciate me.
19:55
I mean, that's the hope a lot of times that the nice guy who suffers from nice guy syndrome.
20:00
And that all leads to an internal conflict because there's this disconnect from
20:04
the person's excessive kindness and often their true feelings of, man,
20:07
I don't want to work this much or I do wish that I could engage in my own hobbies,
20:12
but I just feel like this kindness, it just is there and I can't get rid of it.
20:17
And this is what I do in hopes that people will recognize or notice or that
20:23
I will then feel completely fulfilled from this. And that starts to lead to
20:26
this internal distress.
20:27
And we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second.
20:30
But I think it's really important to recognize this pathological kindness lies
20:34
in understanding that even positive traits, because I cannot stress that enough,
20:39
kindness is a positive trait.
20:40
But when it's taken to an extreme, that it can start to become problematic.
20:44
And that's what helps differentiate between healthy kindness and then a pattern
20:49
of behavior that's more rooted in, I want to say a psychological issue,
20:53
but I don't want that to sound like we're saying that you must now go into a
20:56
psychological hospital because you are pathologically kind.
20:59
But if you are somebody that identifies with this, talking to you,
21:03
Cleo, and other people listening, recognize that behavior, being able to recognize
21:07
it as, yeah, I think I am one of the pathologically kind.
21:11
That is a brilliant, beautiful first step. It's crucial in starting to learn
21:15
and develop healthier patterns of interacting with others.
21:18
And this is where those concepts of differentiation, I'm going to have to deal
21:20
with some discomfort now.
21:22
It's going to hopefully validate your experience and help you start to look
21:26
at your struggles, maybe frame your struggles as a pathologically kind person
21:29
in a way that can start to be addressed because we didn't know.
21:33
And now you know, it's something that you can start to sit with.
21:36
Because I think that whether you're in a relationship or especially if you're
21:39
working with a therapist,
21:40
understanding that that pathological kindness can guide the help you get,
21:46
the interventions that therapists can do to start to work with things like healthier boundaries,
21:51
self-care, and then looking for more balance and relationships.
21:54
It might be recognizing some of the relationships you're in right now are more
21:58
of this give and take versus the reciprocal relationships.
22:02
And it helps shift that narrative of above all, kindness is always the right thing.
22:07
Because look what our brain does immediately goes to, oh, so I'm supposed to
22:10
be a jerk? Oh, no, that's the all or nothing, black or white thinking.
22:13
But just recognizing that there's balance to be struck there between caring
22:18
for others and caring for yourself. self.
22:20
I just jotted down several other things that if you take them to the extreme,
22:23
I just want to show like what each side of that looks like. So take something like, this is empathy.
22:28
That's a, that is a hot one. I talk about empathy often, but the positive version
22:32
of that is, okay, I am going to try to understand.
22:34
And really I want to feel the, share these feelings with others.
22:37
The extreme version of that though, that maybe the pathological version is emotional
22:42
exhaustion, because now you're taking on everybody's problems as your own,
22:45
and you can have a real hard time separating your emotion from other people's.
22:49
Look at some things like ambition, the positive version of that,
22:52
this drive to achieve, I can achieve goals, I can improve myself.
22:56
The extreme version of ambition, maybe the pathological version, a workaholic.
23:01
And people that are neglecting personal relationships and their health,
23:04
and they just don't feel satisfied with their achievements.
23:07
I talked to someone recently that they're in a large position of service in a land far away.
23:14
They were a workaholic in order to become successful enough to put themselves
23:17
in a position to go and do this type of work.
23:20
But now that they're over there, their spouse felt like, okay,
23:23
this is a place now where we are in a position in our life where we can relax a little bit.
23:27
But this person's ambition, I would say, is pathological. They cannot turn it
23:31
off, even when they're in this beautiful place and they are trying their best to enjoy retirement.
23:37
But that is a pathological version of ambition.
23:40
Or you look at things like loyalty. Sounds like a great thing.
23:43
The positive version, being faithful and supportive to friends,
23:46
family, organizations, causes.
23:49
But there's an extreme version or pathological version of that where people
23:52
are so loyal that they stay in abusive or toxic relationships.
23:55
Or they have a blind allegiance to faith or a political candidate or anything
23:59
like that because they are being loyal.
24:02
So that would almost be that pathological loyalty.
24:06
Frugality, something I'm not so familiar with. positive version,
24:09
avoiding waste, budgeting, which I've heard so much of.
24:13
Now the extreme version, I have watched this in therapy, being a miser.
24:18
I don't even know if that's Scrooge McDuck kind of language,
24:20
but denying yourself and your family of just some basic comforts.
24:25
It can even start to look like hoarding.
24:27
I remember working with somebody a long time ago that they were arguing about
24:30
a car that continually broke down and not even having an extra,
24:34
the entitlement, not even having an extra car, if you can imagine this,
24:37
but in this situation, a lot of kids, a lot of things to get to and one old beat up car.
24:41
And then at some point the, the spouse looked at me and said,
24:45
and I think I've told the number on a podcast long ago, and I'm sure I don't
24:48
remember the exact number, but it was something like, Hey, do you think having
24:51
800 grand in savings is enough that we could get a new car?
24:54
And I spent the rest of the appointment trying to stay present,
24:56
but thinking 800 grand in savings.
24:59
Like that's, that's wild. I would, I would definitely have a a different car
25:02
as well as maybe a grill, gold teeth or something else like that,
25:06
which is probably why I'm not in that position.
25:09
Some other ones though, self-reliance, positive version of that,
25:11
you're independent, you're capable.
25:13
I can handle things on my own. The pathological version of self-reliance, I cannot ask for help.
25:18
I am isolated and I'm burned out from trying to do everything by myself.
25:21
I will not, I refuse to ask for help.
25:24
Optimism, positive version, seems pretty simple. I've got a positive outlook on life.
25:29
Extreme, this is like a, this is a buzzword these days, toxic positivity,
25:33
denying, minimizing real problems.
25:36
You cannot process negative emotions.
25:40
Humility something i'm incredibly good at insert laugh
25:43
track you know the positive version of that be modest about
25:46
somebody's accomplishments and importance but the pathological version
25:50
which sometimes i think this is one of the close cousins of pathological kindness
25:53
self-deprecating yeah the inability to accept compliments undervaluing your
25:58
own contributions and work where you'll hear people often just say oh man yeah
26:03
i i wouldn't be able to do that even if i tried where something something?
26:06
Yeah, they can. I know they can.
26:07
This is one where my wife has done this Alcatraz swim seven or eight times from Alcatraz to the shore.
26:12
She's incredibly talented and finishes in the top of her age group most every time.
26:18
But if I bring this up, I'm not really a good swimmer.
26:20
That's self-deprecating. She's phenomenal.
26:23
Incredibly talented with that. It's fascinating.
26:26
Honesty. That's one that I talk about when we're looking at people's values
26:29
that people will often think, okay, if I don't have a core value of honesty,
26:34
then something's wrong with me.
26:36
But there's, of course, there's the positive version, being truthful, having integrity.
26:41
Those are, I'm pro both of those. But there's an extreme version,
26:44
a pathological version of honesty, which is brutal, bluntness and no tact,
26:49
sharing inappropriately personal things, the inability to keep secrets.
26:52
And I've spoken with someone just a few days ago that they want to share deeply with a spouse,
26:58
but they cannot trust that that spouse will keep their secret because if somebody
27:03
asks them a question about it, they said that my spouse will just,
27:07
they'll say, well, it's just being honest.
27:08
And so there's the pathological version of honesty, patience.
27:13
The good version, wait calmly, tolerate delays without getting upset.
27:17
The pathological version, passivity.
27:19
Other people taking advantage of you, neglecting your own needs, your own timeliness.
27:23
So one more confidence. Positive version, believing in oneself.
27:28
I think we know the pathological version of confidence, which is an interesting way to say it.
27:34
Arrogance, dismissing others' opinions or expertise. Here's where we get into
27:38
that world of emotionally immature or taking unnecessary risks.
27:41
So, I think that this part, and here we are barely into Cleo's letter,
27:45
but I think that's a very significant part of understanding the pathology behind kindness.
27:53
Because I think that this helps understand that traits that can be viewed as
27:57
positive can start to be problematic if they're extreme or inflexible.
28:00
So let's get back to Cleo's relationship with Ray.
28:03
She says, I met Ray five years ago and at first everything was amazing.
28:08
He was charming, attentive, and he seemed to need me so much.
28:11
I felt like I'd finally found somebody who appreciated my kindness.
28:14
But over time, things changed.
28:16
Ray's moods became unpredictable. He'd be loving one minute and cold the next.
28:19
I found myself constantly trying to figure out what he needed,
28:22
always walking on eggshells.
28:24
And I think that it's important to note that this part of Cleo's story starts
28:27
to show why the pathologically kind people are often drawn to the narcissist
28:32
or the emotionally immature partner.
28:33
Because here's the tricky part. The pathologically kind person ends up with
28:38
that immature partner because it's almost like this puzzle piece that fits into
28:41
place because the kind person is used to putting others first.
28:45
And so when she said that he could appreciate how kind she was.
28:48
So that narcissist or the emotionally immature person loves
28:51
being put first so the kind person then feels needed
28:54
which there's that concept of the familiar so she
28:57
feels like okay she knows what to do when she can put somebody else's needs
29:01
first and then put her needs second and then she starts to talk about her sensitivity
29:05
she said i've always been sensitive my friends joke that i can feel somebody's
29:09
mood from a mile away but with ray it's exhausting i feel every shift in his
29:14
emotions that I'm always trying to make things better.
29:16
The problem is I'm so focused on his feelings that I've lost touch with my own.
29:21
And this relates to what we call a highly sensitive person, HSP.
29:26
And they feel things more deeply than others. It's like their emotional volume
29:31
is turned up to an 11 all the time.
29:33
And a lot of pathologically kind people would identify as HSPs,
29:38
highly sensitive people.
29:39
And they do say that they pick up on others' feelings easily,
29:43
which makes them great at being kind, but then it can also feel pretty overwhelming.
29:48
And next, Cleo talks about her struggle to leave the relationship.
29:51
She said, lately I've been thinking about leaving, but it's just so hard.
29:54
There are moments when Ray is sweet and loving and I cling to those.
29:57
They can see he does care.
29:58
If I just try harder, then maybe things will get better, but then I'll say something
30:02
cruel or dismissive. And then I am back to square one.
30:06
And this, this does talk or speak to the emotional inconsistency that I think
30:11
it's part of that concept that we truly don't know that we don't know.
30:15
And I won't spend too much time on this, I think this is for a future episode,
30:18
but I have recognized as I have tried to become more emotionally mature myself
30:22
that so often we're unaware of the things that I would say fall into this bucket of validation.
30:28
If I come home and I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed and I really just need
30:32
everybody to know that I've had a rough day and you just need to give me some time.
30:36
I really am wanting them to know. And if I want them to know,
30:40
that would technically fit in that validation bucket that I need these people
30:43
to understand or else then it won't matter or it won't. It's as if it hasn't happened.
30:48
But if I know that I've had a rough day or I know that I've been a little bit
30:52
emotionally overwhelmed myself, then what I can do if I'm really trying to become
30:56
differentiated is take that in and that there's nothing wrong with me.
30:59
It's part of being human and I can acknowledge that I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed.
31:03
I'm feeling those big emotions And then I can sit with those for a minute.
31:06
I can get grounded before I head home, maybe even on the ride home.
31:09
And I can just say, okay, I am so sorry, emotions, for shoving you down my entire life.
31:14
Let's hear it. And if they're saying, okay, that was a lot, or I feel like you
31:18
weren't able to really express the things that you wanted to.
31:21
Well, then there we go. Thank you, emotions, for just making yourselves big
31:26
and helping me become aware because there's where I can pull out a nugget of
31:31
self-confrontation for growth.
31:32
Growth, yeah, there's truth in that, then why was I not expressing myself,
31:37
coming from a place of authenticity, if that's one of my core values that I
31:40
really want to be able to express myself.
31:42
And if I'm grounded, and if I know that I'm coming from a good place,
31:45
then I can share these things as a therapist in a session.
31:48
If I have somebody that's saying, okay, what do you think that that was rude of me to say?
31:53
And if I really do feel like it was rude, but if I didn't say that,
31:57
if I was saying, well, I can understand you're frustrated, what I just did was I avoided the question.
32:02
It would be okay for me to say, you know, in my experience, yeah,
32:05
that does come across as a bit rude.
32:07
Now tell me, tell me how you feel about that. And what is your definition of rude?
32:11
Because if you're asking me that, then I'm, I do feel that way.
32:14
Now I'm still maintaining this connection, this conversation or this relationship,
32:18
even if it's a therapeutic relationship with the person that's asking me that.
32:21
So then I actually get the model that, oh yeah, I can have these feelings and
32:25
I can still actually stay engaged in this conversation, maintain this connection.
32:29
In that scenario, I can get grounded. And then by the time I make it home,
32:33
then I'm actually okay. And I can show up and be more emotionally consistent.
32:37
So, and I think that's one of the fascinating things is I'm not trying to say
32:40
that we can never express our emotions, quite the opposite.
32:43
But do I need to express those emotions to everybody that's walking around me
32:47
because I need them to tell me that it's okay to have those emotions?
32:50
Or do I know it's okay? And so those emotions are me thing.
32:53
And what are they saying to me? What can I learn from these emotions?
32:56
And if I'm in a relationship where I feel safe and secure, then I can even start
33:01
to process these emotions with another human being.
33:03
And then I can say, hey, let me take you on my train of thought.
33:06
I got pretty overwhelmed when this happened. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
33:09
What happens? Do you ever have that experience? And what's that like for you?
33:12
And now we're having a shared experience. And that's one of the greatest ways
33:16
that I can really be able to self-confront.
33:19
But if that isn't available, then it is 100%. It's a me thing.
33:23
But I think, or I worry where Cleo is going here is it's a classic example of
33:28
you got cognitive dissonance, which I covered on an episode last week and trauma bonding.
33:32
Because when you are trying to leave a relationship, the kind person often faces
33:38
this mental tug of war and that is cognitive dissonance.
33:40
They're thinking things like this person hurts me, but I think they must love
33:45
me deep down or things are bad, but if I just try harder, I think it'll get better.
33:50
And I want to cover some of the ground that I covered last week,
33:53
but I've been thinking about it even since that episode.
33:56
When you really look at cognitive dissonance and we throw in this concept of
33:58
trauma bonding, it is where your mind and heart are actually what is in a tug
34:03
of war and they're pulling in opposite directions.
34:05
This is the internal conflict that can just suck the life out of you.
34:08
It becomes draining. It can disorient you.
34:11
And it is really one of these telltale signs of being caught in a relationship
34:15
with somebody who is emotionally manipulative or narcissistic.
34:17
We're burning so many emotional calories on trying to figure out what is going
34:21
on or what is wrong and so if you are navigating a relationship that is filled
34:25
with all kinds of contradictions.
34:27
It's going to leave you feeling like okay am i
34:30
tightrope walking am i supposed to be juggling here am i spinning plates i'm not
34:33
even sure because your brain's constantly trying to make sense of all of the
34:37
inconsistent experiences and emotions which that is what starts to lead people
34:42
just emotionally depleted exhausted tired and that ongoing struggle that starts
34:46
to chip away way at your confidence and your overall well-being, your sense of self.
34:51
But if we want to find a silver lining, and there can be one,
34:54
even though there's a lot of confusion, becoming aware of these conflicting
34:57
thoughts and feelings, maybe guessed it, there's the first step.
35:00
There's the bottom rung on the ladder to clarity and to healing.
35:04
Because as you start to recognize all of these inconsistencies,
35:07
it's like you're slowly adjusting your vision and you are allowing yourself
35:10
to acknowledge that there are inconsistencies and not trying to immediately
35:13
cover them up with a, yeah, but, yeah, but they're also kind of nice.
35:17
And that can start to bring the real true nature of this relationship into focus,
35:22
but it can start with into focus for you.
35:25
And the more you have this awareness, this growing awareness,
35:28
then you might start to spot recurring themes in your relationship that you
35:32
really weren't aware of before because you were making excuses because you didn't
35:36
want to think that this person was actually being pretty mean because we immediately go to,
35:41
but maybe it's because of this or they also are pretty nice.
35:44
Because where we're trying to get to here is to start trusting your own judgment,
35:49
trusting your own gut, rather than constantly questioning your perception of things.
35:54
Because your emotions are traveling far faster than your logic.
35:58
So you're taking in visual cues, you're taking in auditory cues,
36:03
and it's going to that part of your brain that is immediately saying,
36:06
is this safe? Is this okay?
36:07
And it's even trying to scan for context, like what's going on here?
36:10
And it is so important to understand that it
36:13
is okay to admit that a relationship is
36:16
not living up to your hopes and your expectations now that first
36:19
admission might need to just be internal because if
36:22
this is where if i immediately explode and say this is not working
36:25
and i'm in an emotionally immature relationship then
36:28
i just handed that person fuel to say yeah you bet it's not working and i'm
36:32
tired of the way that you're handling things like wait what i'm the one that
36:34
just brought this up but having these mixed emotions when you're dealing with
36:37
somebody who's emotionally immature it's a natural response and when you acknowledge
36:41
that that is a thing that is how you're feeling actually it's more of a sign
36:45
of emotional maturity not some flaw in the relationship.
36:49
Because if you find yourself continually just grappling with all kinds of conflicting
36:53
behaviors, conflicting emotions in your relationship, then I think it's safe
36:57
to say it would be time to take a step back. Maybe you need to pause and you can even reassess.
37:01
And I'll continue to reiterate in this podcast today that you can do that and
37:07
start from a place internally, inside your head.
37:11
Because too often we just want to blurt things out. And then if we are in an
37:15
unhealthy relationship, then
37:17
that just gives that person more fuel to then turn it back around on us.
37:21
I want to encourage you to get guidance from a therapist, a mental health professional
37:25
who knows these complex emotional waters of immaturity because you are entitled
37:31
to a relationship. And yes, I use that word entitled.
37:34
In this scenario, we're not talking about the young kids these days and their sense of entitlement.
37:39
Now, I can tell you to get off my lawn or my porch or whatever the old people like myself say.
37:44
But I think that in this scenario, you are entitled to a relationship that brings
37:47
you emotional stability.
37:48
It brings you contentment and joy, and you can process emotion in concert with
37:52
another human, not a continual cloud of uncertainty and self-doubt.
37:56
Because we want to get back to that place where we listen to that inner voice.
37:59
We practice self-compassion. and and it
38:02
will start to to come in small increments and
38:06
it is absolutely fine to prioritize your
38:09
emotional health your well-being and to seek
38:12
out relationships that that nurture and support you because there's a real mental
38:17
struggle with the whole up and down of a relationship because that is what creates
38:21
this trauma bond this intermittent reinforcement that the same person that can
38:25
provide you with the punishment is also the one that has the key to the reward it is this
38:30
emotional rollercoaster that is hard to get off.
38:32
And some people, I think, quite frankly, become somewhat addicted to because
38:36
then they just feel like if there isn't chaos, if we're not going on the downhill
38:39
or we're not going on the uphill, then there will be no downhill.
38:43
But that pathologically kind person, go back to the pathology of it,
38:46
remembers the good times intensely.
38:48
Remember, because they feel things so deeply that they keep hoping that these
38:51
good times are going to come back.
38:53
But meanwhile, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist or emotionally
38:56
immature person, they might act nice just often enough to keep the kind person
39:00
hoping, to keep them just going on.
39:02
Cleo then describes making excuses for Ray's behavior. She said,
39:04
the strangest part is, even when Ray hurts me, I find myself making excuses for him.
39:08
I think he must be in pain to act this way. or if I love him enough,
39:12
he'll heal and things will improve.
39:14
And I assume that he feels things as deeply as I do and that his love for me
39:17
must be as intense as mine is for him.
39:19
But she said, more and more, I'm wondering if that's true.
39:23
And I think that is another common misunderstanding with a person that we were
39:26
deeming today as pathologically kind.
39:29
Because I think this is where it really starts to get confusing.
39:32
Because a pathologically kind person being so empathetic assumes their partner
39:36
feels things as deeply as they do. maybe not is on the same exact level, but pretty similar.
39:42
They must think if I love this deeply, they must too.
39:44
If this is hurting me, I can't even imagine how bad it would hurt them and I don't want to hurt them.
39:49
But the narcissist and the emotionally immature person doesn't have that same depth of feeling.
39:54
And then Cleo mentions in her attempts to communicate with Ray,
39:57
she said, I've tried to talk to Ray about her problems, but then he either dismisses
40:00
my concerns or he turns him around on me and he'll say, I'm too sensitive or
40:04
that I'm imagining things.
40:05
And sometimes it'll be nice for a while after these conversations and I'll think,
40:08
okay, we're making progress.
40:10
But then things go back to the way that they were. And she said,
40:13
I feel like I'm losing my mind.
40:16
And a couple of things. One is this is where...
40:19
Just because you are no longer having unhealthy conversations does not mean
40:24
that the relationship is good.
40:24
The absence of bad in a relationship does not equate to good.
40:28
It's just that we are finally not having a negative interaction in the relationship.
40:35
And I really think this part of Cleo's story shows how the lack of a stable
40:38
sense of self, a core identity starts to impact her relationship.
40:41
Because always focusing on others can mean that the pathologically kind person
40:45
doesn't really know themselves very well. Well, it's like they are so busy being
40:49
what everybody else needs that they forget to figure out who they are.
40:52
And that isn't healthy because everybody needs a strong sense of self in order
40:55
to make good decisions, to be able to set boundaries.
40:58
And then I think that Cleo expresses her inner conflict.
41:01
She says, I know logically that this relationship isn't healthy,
41:04
but every time I think about leaving, I feel guilty. I worry about how Ray will manage without me.
41:08
I remember the good times and I wonder if I'm giving up too easily.
41:11
She said, it's like there's a war in my head between what I know and what I
41:14
feel. And that internal struggle is a key part of why it is so hard for people
41:19
like Cleo to leave these kinds of relationships.
41:22
And just if we go back and review, this cycle is so tough to break because the
41:27
kind person is used to putting other people's needs first.
41:30
They will continually believe in the potential of the relationship,
41:34
even to their own detriment, and they feel responsible for their partner's happiness
41:37
because that's the role that they played growing up in their childhood.
41:40
It and then the intense emotions those are what they know that's the familiar
41:45
and that feels like love even when they're actually from stress or from anxiety.
41:50
So finally, then I think Cleo does acknowledge about how hard that is to put herself first.
41:55
She said, my friends have been telling me for years that I need to put myself first for once.
41:59
But she says the idea feels so foreign that it feels wrong.
42:03
She said, I've spent my whole life taking care of others. So the thought of
42:07
prioritizing my own needs makes me feel selfish and uncomfortable.
42:11
And this is a crucial point for the pathologically kind person,
42:15
because breaking free means that the pathologically kind person has to do something
42:20
that's going to feel wrong to them, put themselves first.
42:23
And it's like they are learning how to write with a, I'm left-handed trying
42:27
to write with my right hand.
42:28
I mean, it feels very odd and very uncomfortable at first, but I've been told
42:32
if I continue to do it someday, it would, could actually feel somewhat normal.
42:36
But understanding all of this, that's the first step in breaking this cycle.
42:39
And it helps that pathologically kind person see that always being kind isn't
42:44
always being kind to themselves or even to people in their family,
42:47
and learning to balance that kindness to others with kindness to yourself,
42:51
that that starts to become this key to a healthier relationship.
42:54
Because I think that her story, why I really appreciate this so much is it is
42:57
such a good example of how complex and challenging things like her relationship with Ray are.
43:03
It is not just as simple as telling somebody to just leave, just leave a bad
43:07
relationship, because there are deep-rooted psychological factors that are at play here.
43:11
So if there's anybody that's listening who relates to Cleo's story,
43:14
remember Remember that recognizing the patterns is the first step toward change.
43:18
If you are feeling something very familiar today with that story,
43:21
then just sit with that a little bit. Take it in. There's nothing wrong with
43:24
you. You're just starting to process some data.
43:26
And know that the last thing I'm saying is that you need to knock it off being
43:29
kind. It's okay to be kind, but it's crucial to extend that kindness to yourself.
43:34
So seeking professional help, talking to a therapist, a coach,
43:37
that can be invaluable in starting to learn how to navigate these complex emotional
43:41
landscapes that are known as relationships and build healthier relationships,
43:45
both not just with other people, but with yourself.
43:49
So, let's wrap things up here today because I think that her story,
43:52
it just shows the complex interplay between being pathologically kind,
43:57
being highly sensitive,
43:58
and then feeling somewhat stuck or trapped in a relationship with somebody who
44:01
is emotionally immature or even on the spectrum of narcissism.
44:05
Because it's a pattern that a lot of people find themselves in and they don't
44:09
realize how they even got there. They're just there.
44:12
But that journey from recognizing the dynamic to then breaking free,
44:16
it's a path. It's challenging.
44:18
But it's also this path of self-discovery. It's a path to a healthier relationship.
44:22
But remember that if you can relate to Cleo's experience, you're not alone.
44:26
And there's absolutely hope that things can get better.
44:29
So I want to just give you a couple of takeaways. We'll call them today.
44:32
First, recognize that, again, being kind Fine, admirable, but not at the expense of your own well-being.
44:37
I would also say, understand that your empathy and your sensitivity also are
44:41
strengths, but can they be balanced with strong boundaries? And I know that can be a challenge.
44:46
And remembering that a boundary is not an ultimatum. It's not a,
44:49
you need to do this. It's a, if you do this, then this is what I'll do for myself.
44:53
And then I'd say, finally, remember that love should not feel like a constant
44:57
struggle or an emotional rollercoaster.
45:00
So how do you implement this? What do you do?
45:03
Here we go. oh, self-care, self-care is not selfish, small acts of self-care
45:07
daily, even if it feels uncomfortable.
45:09
It can be as simple as saying no to a request that doesn't serve you.
45:12
I really am on a big journaling kick right now, journaling about your feelings,
45:16
your experiences and your relationships, because that will help you start to
45:19
identify patterns rather than just kicking things around in your head.
45:21
And then you will start to recognize things that you're writing down and maybe
45:25
it will help you start to trust your own perception.
45:28
And finally, I would really recommend that if this resonated today,
45:31
reach out to a therapist or a counselor, But one who specializes in things like
45:35
codependency or narcissistic abuse recovery,
45:37
because they will be able to really recognize all these variables that are at
45:41
play and give you a little bit of personalized guidance and help you navigate
45:45
these big emotions, these big relationship dynamics.
45:48
Also know, change does take time. Every small step, I'm not trying to say this
45:54
in a, oh my gosh, every small step, you better start making all the small steps
45:56
now, but every small step towards self-awareness,
45:59
every small step towards self-respect is an absolute victory.
46:02
Now, if you have been listening and you have realized that you might be the
46:06
emotionally immature person in the relationship,
46:08
I want you to know this is a big moment, a moment of self-awareness,
46:11
and it is incredibly valuable, but it is not easy to look at ourselves honestly
46:16
and recognize behaviors that might be hurting those that we love.
46:19
But I promise that by doing so, you've taken a big step. And it's often the
46:23
hardest step toward a positive change.
46:25
Because remember, emotional immaturity is not a lifetime sentence as much as
46:29
people think it is when they hear about that.
46:31
It's a starting point for growth. We're all emotionally immature until we're not.
46:34
So your willingness to acknowledge the patterns that you might be engaging in,
46:39
that shows courage, that shows a capacity for self-reflection.
46:42
And that is going to serve you incredibly well on your own journey of development.
46:47
It's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay to feel even feeling guilty.
46:51
I don't want to go into shame, but just don't let those feelings stop you.
46:55
They aren't there as a dam. And those are feelings. Start to let them in.
46:59
Use those feelings as motivation to learn, to grow, to become the partner that
47:03
you maybe have always wanted to be.
47:04
And I would also say to you, work with a therapist who can guide you through
47:08
the process of emotional growth, emotional intelligence, emotional IQ.
47:11
IQ, you name it, and you can start to work on being empathetic,
47:16
practice active listening, learn to regulate your emotions, be patient with yourself.
47:21
Because as I think the theme today has also been, change takes time,
47:24
but every single little bit helps.
47:27
And if you commit to this path of self-improvement, then you're not only working
47:30
toward a healthier relationship, but also it is a more fulfilling life.
47:33
I promise you, when you can sit with your own discomfort, do a little self-confrontation
47:36
and show up different and emotionally consistent, turns out you're a pretty
47:39
fun hang. And that is a strength. It is not a weakness.
47:43
And man, while I'm ending with a bunch of cliches, it is never too late to truly
47:47
start being the best version of yourself. So thank you so much for joining me today.
47:50
I would love to hear your stories. I would love to hear your examples,
47:54
your growth, even if there are things that you are starting to wake up to and
47:58
recognize in yourself or in your relationship.
48:01
Reach out, send those to contact at tonyoverbay.com. Please sign up.
48:04
Music.