Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E125: Why Women Should Complement, Not Compete With Men with Suzanne Venker

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E125: Why Women Should Complement, Not Compete With Men with Suzanne Venker · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  Find a career that motherhood can accommodate.
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  It's flexible. You can do it part time.
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  You can do it from home. You can leave and come back.
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  Why not tell this to young women early on and stop pretending
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  that they're not any different from men?
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  Raise your daughters differently than you raise your sons.
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  That's a good thing. Now, that's a controversial
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  statement, but yeah. All of these things have been
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  lost in this land of equality. Really, it's wasn't about
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  equality, it's about interchangeability.
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  There's a whole different way to do life.
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  It's the counterculture cultural way.
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  It's not the way the culture is going to teach, but it's a way
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  that works. It's practical.
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  It's just not PC so people don't hear it.
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  Welcome back to the Lila Rose Podcast.
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  Today I'm going to sit down with Suzanne Venker, who is a podcast
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  host as well as author and relationship coach, and we talk
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  all things relationships. There's a lot of countercultural
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  advice in this episode about how to date, how to date for
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  marriage, even how to choose your career and your education,
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  Education as a woman in particular, and why that matters
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  when you're wanting to one day get married and have kids.
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  We also talk about how to live on one income, some of the tough
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  choices and decisions that a couple may make in order to
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  maximize the best and healthiest home for both the marriage and
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  the children. We talk about what are the
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  absolutely essential attributes you're looking for in a man as
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  well as in a woman, and so much more.
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  We even get into divorce and annulment a little bit, and
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  Suzanne shares some of her personal story.
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  I hope you enjoyed this episode, Suzanne Venker, thanks for
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  joining the podcast. Thanks for having me.
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  So you're an author, podcast host, and I think of you and the
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  advice you give us a very loving big sister.
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  I've been called that, I think, or mom, depending on how old the
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  person is. Yeah, although I prefer the big
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  sister. I don't want to be that old, but
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  I am a mom so that's OK. OK, so for folks who don't know
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  your work yet, give us a little background on who is Suzanne
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  Venker. Yeah.
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  So I started out really, I mean, I think of myself as a writer.
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  That's what I love to do. I like being behind a computer.
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  I like getting my thoughts out and organizing them.
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  I love research. So I wrote my first book when I
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  was pregnant, actually with my first, who's now 24 years old.
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  And that was about basically the needs of children and the
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  importance of mothers being home.
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  And that led into eventually, well, at the time, blogging was
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  big, you know, blogging sort of gone the way the dinosaur, I
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  think. But at the time it was new and
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  there were no videos and social media and all this that you have
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  at your stage of the game. And so you were behind a
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  computer if you wanted to, you know, be an activist or write
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  and that kind of thing. So I did that for a number of
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  years and then I wrote as I was able, something that you could
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  do from home very easily with children.
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  And eventually that became as the social media and the videos
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  came on board, then it became a podcast eventually.
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  And now I do relationship coaching as well.
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  So I guess I'm AI, don't know what you'd call me.
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  I mean, I'm an entrepreneur, right?
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  But writing is really my love and coaching.
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  And so much of your work centers around women really leaning into
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  their femininity and if their wife, wives and mothers being
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  able to fully live that out in a healthy way.
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  And you have a lot of good advice along the way.
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  What made you so passionate about that?
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  So in 2017, I wrote a book called The Alpha Females Guide
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  to Men and Marriage. And I'd say of all the books
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  I've written, that's been the most successful.
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  And I think it's because it tapped into an extremely common
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  dynamic of the strong and independent, successful type a
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  woman who's always been around, right, but is in probably the
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  norm today, getting married and finding themselves in a power
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  struggle with their husbands because they're, you know, the
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  way I like to describe it is that you need a yin and the Yang
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  to a relationship and you need masculinity and femininity.
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  And those two things work super well together.
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  But because we've essentially turned women into men by telling
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  them they need to pattern their lives after men and be more like
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  men for this faux version, excuse me, of equality.
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  They've sort of unknowingly adopted male traits, which my
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  argument in that book was that that'll get you pretty far in
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  the in the marketplace for sure. But it's it's a lose, lose at
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  home. And so that was the message of
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  that book and it really resonated.
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  And that's when the coaching started because people would
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  read this book and be like, Oh my God, this is so me.
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  It's like you're looking at my relationship and you're looking
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  in my home. And I read this.
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  I get this. I've never heard this before.
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  This sounds amazing. I need to do this, but how do I
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  do it? I need help implementing it.
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  And that's where the coaching came in.
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  OK, so let's start with that topic 'cause it's such a good
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  one and listening to you talking like one type from one type A
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  woman to another or alpha woman to another.
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  And again, I, I actually sometimes think of myself as
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  type B actually with the way that I operate in, in my home
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  and in my personal relationships.
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  But when you're in any kind of public initiative and working
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  really hard, people are like that person.
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  It's type A, there's type A qualities there.
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  So I'd love to start with the book and let's start with before
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  you're married and you're you're kind of on a journey of
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  self-awareness, maybe as a woman trying to make your decisions as
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  a single woman. What would you how should a
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  woman think about her own? Would you recommend her own kind
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  of personality, if she's more of a type A type personality, to
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  not squash her personality and her God-given talents because we
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  were given them by God to use them and I think they're great
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  qualities, but to direct them in a way that is also not going to
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  hamper our femininity. What does that look like?
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  Yeah, that's a great question. And the most common one, because
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  it's almost like, is that even possible?
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  How do you do that? Cause for the longest time, and
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  by the way, that book was part memoir for me, 'cause I was
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  going through this journey and I had a mother who did not know
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  how to turn it off. And let me back up for a second
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  and say this is super important. This isn't necessarily related
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  to whether or not you're employed.
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  There are plenty of stay at home moms who struggle with this
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  dynamic. They're the they're the CEO of
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  the house. I would argue it might even be
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  harder for them because they're in charge all day of little ones
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  and it's super hard to figure out how to not translate that to
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  your husband at the end of the day and make him one of your
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  kids, which is super easy to do. And without any tutoring in that
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  or, or just help on how do you, you know how, what does that
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  look like? Like you're asking you end up
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  with many times with the relationship you really don't
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  want to have because it's not pretty and it and it goes S very
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  quickly. So understanding 1st that it's
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  OK to be one way in one scenario and another way in another
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  scenario. And it's not a matter of
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  changing who you are, which I remember I used to say that 20
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  years ago. I've been married 26 years this
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  year. And I mean, there was a time
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  when I would say and think, well, you married me.
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  This is this is my personality. What, what am I supposed to do
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  about it? And I did believe that there
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  wasn't a way to change. But in in reality, I just didn't
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  have the skills at the time and I didn't have a model for that.
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  So that book, like I said, was very much part memoir.
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  So and it's been a journey for me as well.
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  But the issue is every space, you know, you go into a funeral,
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  let's say, and you're not, your behavior isn't going to be the
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  same as when you go to a party, right?
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  There's parts of ourselves that you can tap into that will work
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  in a specific environment. So when it comes to men and a
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  relationship with a man, especially if you want it to be
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  long term, it, it shines the more feminine you are and the
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  more masculine he is. But we're going to talk about
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  women for a second. The less feminine you are, the
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  more you're going to struggle, the more you're going to be
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  fighting, I like to say fighting against the biological tide
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  rather than working with it, which is smooth sailing when you
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  work with it. And so whatever it is that
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  you're doing during the day with your kids or at your job, let
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  that be there and learn how to switch gears when you come, when
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  you come home at night and understand that those two
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  domains just don't command the same behaviors.
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  So what does that look like? First of all, being softer.
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  You know, a man doesn't want a hard charging dictatorial woman
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  in his home. You know, that's not what he
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  married you for. He married you because you bring
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  the softer, more receptive or presumably at the beginning.
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  Women really understand this. When I explain this, that you
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  know, when you first dated, I guarantee you, you exuded
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  softness and receptivity. I guarantee you you did.
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  That's how you got them. You immediately went into your
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  feminine because we kind of instinctually know how to do
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  that when we're first getting together with a man.
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  But something tends to happen over time.
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  Or if you were tough, I would say there was that softness and
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  vulnerability that brought you together.
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  And that's what that's what spoke to him and he saw that.
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  If you had been, I mean, I can't tell you how many women would
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  you know if I remind them of, you know, go go back ten years,
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  15 years when you first met. Are you anything like that
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  today? And they're like, tough
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  question. It is a tough question.
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  And, and we've all been there. And it's not anything to be feel
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  bad about. It's just to have an awareness
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  of, look, here's what works and here's what doesn't.
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  And if you want to go in this direction, the positive
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  direction, think back to when it was easy, and that would have
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  been probably when you were dating and whatever you
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  employed, then do it again. I mean, and you're basically
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  saying date your husband, keep dating him, be that, be his.
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  I mean be his girlfriend. Be his girlfriend.
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  Be his girlfriend, not his. Yeah.
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  Be his boss, not his, not his boss.
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  That's not what he signed up. With so you, you mentioned
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  softness and receptivity and I want to dive into your, you
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  know, what is the feminine? What is the feminine?
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  Because of course the feminine, I mean, we give birth.
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  The feminine is extremely tough and can be extremely self
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  sacrificing, hard working, courageous.
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  And you know, I think about Saint Joan of Arc as an example,
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  or, you know, Mary, the mother of Jesus, She did not leave him.
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  She stood at the foot of the cross.
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  Like these are my heroes, you know, but there's this, I think,
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  a softness that underlies the fierceness.
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  How else can we should we see or think about femininity?
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  Yeah, I think that's a super important point.
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  Softness is not weakness, which is of course what the culture
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  teaches. So I'm all about, I mean, you
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  asked me at the beginning, you know, who am I, what I do, I'm
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  all about being as counter cultural as you can possibly be.
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  And that's how you, that's how you're going to win in life.
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  Because I'm, I don't believe the culture we live in today is
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  conducive to happy marriages, happy families, happy
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  relationships or any of that. So I'm all about doing it the
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  opposite of the way the culture teaches.
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  So yeah, softness and vulnerability go hand in hand
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  and they're good things. And they're what going they're,
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  they are what's going to bring you closer and bring you that
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  intimacy that I think most people are ultimately looking
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  for and wanting. They just don't know how to go
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  about it. Being soft doesn't mean not
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  being strong. Soft and strong aren't even
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  opposites, you know Strong and weakness are.
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  But you're strong on the inside. You can be strong on the inside
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  and softer on the outside. I think women think they have to
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  be 100% hard to maintain their identities to prove themselves
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  even though they don't have anything to prove.
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  That's the irony of this whole thing.
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  You know they they're worthy just because they're women.
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  To a man. He's not looking for you to
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  prove yourself to him, but they're following a trajectory
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  and a path that is very male focused and thinking that that's
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  a better way to move through the world and finding themselves at
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  a loss, you know, down the road when their relationships aren't
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  working and when they're not happy trying to juggle both
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  career and motherhood. And of course, that's a big
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  piece of what I talk about too, is how to do that in a way that
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  actually works for you rather than against you.
• 12:49
  How do we maintain peace in an ever crazy world?
• 12:52
  Prayer. Prayer is so key.
• 12:54
  And how do we pray? It's so helpful to have tools to
• 12:57
  remind us and assist us with our prayer.
• 12:59
  That's why I love Hallow app Hallow Up is the number one
• 13:01
  prayer app in the world. Hallow app has 10,000 prayers on
• 13:04
  the app. They have meditations, they have
• 13:06
  sleep stories, they have scripture, they have even
• 13:07
  content for kids. Tons of stuff to help you pray.
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  Whether you're driving, you're doing the dishes, whatever
• 13:12
  you're doing in your daily life. Hallows you and your family, so
• 13:15
  go check out Hollow today. You can download Hollow for
• 13:18
  three months free at the link in the description and join
• 13:21
  millions of other people in making prayer a daily part of
• 13:23
  your life. I really want to get into that
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  topic. We talk about that a lot on the
• 13:27
  show, but I want to stay with this femininity, how to
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  practically be feminine. Maybe we'll go to that next.
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  Because, you know, this all sounds beautiful, you know, be
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  soft but strong and be be willing to be receptive and
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  vulnerable. And, you know, a man doesn't
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  want, you know, the boss, he wants a, you know, girlfriend,
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  he wants a wife. But what does that look like
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  practically? What are some practical tips you
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  have maybe of things where women might miss like miss the mark
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  here or misunderstand it because of the way they were raised or
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  the culture and how and they practically be more holy
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  themselves and feminine? So these are things they're not
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  used to hearing. So they might sound a little, I
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  don't know what the word is at first, but a lot more listening
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  and a lot less talking. The idea, again from the culture
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  is that if you're not talking as a woman, you must be a mouse.
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  You know, you're not standing up for yourself or for your rights
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  if you're listening more than you're talking.
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  But that's not how it works in a relationship.
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  The quieter you are, the more you allow your man to open up.
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  Because men aren't like women and it takes them a while to
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  process their emotions. And we're always, you know, our
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  emotions are always right there and always having to be felt and
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  dealt with and spoken about. And that can be super
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  overwhelming for a man. And if you give him the space to
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  think and not jump in so much, then he will very likely come
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  back to respond in the way you were looking for whatever that
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  was maybe 30 minutes later. But you have to be quiet long
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  enough to let it marinate. And so that's a, that's a
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  practical tool in communication with your spouse that or with
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  your person that I think you can implement ASAP.
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  And you're going to find really quickly how much that works.
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  So that's that's one. To to drill down that really
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  quick does quiet mean, as you describe it, avoiding
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  interruptions, maybe asking a question and letting it sit, you
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  know, sharing, yes, but then not sharing so much that you're
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  dominating the conversation like like keep createspace like
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  practically, obviously you're not just saying just sit there
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  and don't say anything at. All and it's not about having no
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  opinions, although sometimes you don't have to necessarily share
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  your opinion. If you're something you just
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  share all the. Time, which again, trust me when
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  I say these are all things I've lived and learned.
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  I'm not talking from above and saying this is how I've been my
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  whole life and you should, you should emulate it.
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  I'm saying here's what I didn't do right, and here's what I've
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  learned the hard way and hopefully have changed.
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  So yeah, that's that. That's one example is all those
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  things that you said just being quieter.
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  And sometimes that quieter can be like, here's AI wrote about
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  this in the alpha book and it sounds kind of can that really
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  be a thing? Even the way you move throughout
• 16:20
  the house can negatively affect your husband.
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  Meaning if you're constantly frazzled and running from point
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  A to point B and really intense and really anxious, that makes
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  him anxious. Whereas if you are calmer and
• 16:37
  slower, you're going to bring out a better side of him that
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  will then come back to benefit you as well.
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  So I don't think men are very much responders of women.
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  So they'll kind of you're setting the mood of the room and
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  then they'll react to whatever you're bringing to the table.
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  So if you go up, he might go up and then you're not going to
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  like him going up because that's not really what you're looking
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  for. But if you're calmer, sort of
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  like what I said about the speaking, you know, and giving
• 17:08
  him the space, then you you set up a dynamic where the
• 17:13
  relationship is just mutually beneficial as opposed to you
• 17:17
  feeling like you have to dominate it all the time because
• 17:20
  he's not responding the way that you want.
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  So in other words, changing yourself will ultimately change
• 17:26
  him and the relationship rather than beating him, you know, over
• 17:30
  the head with a stick, metaphorically speaking, to be
• 17:33
  different than he is. So there's a way to work with a
• 17:36
  man to get the best out of him. And I would argue this for this
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  works in reverse too. There's but we're not here to
• 17:43
  talk about man, I guess right now, but.
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  Well, I mean, why not? Let's talk about it at all.
• 17:48
  The the 11 word that I don't know if you use this word, but
• 17:51
  it's kind of underpinning a lot of what you're saying is
• 17:53
  sweetness kind? I mean, kindness quite frankly.
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  And I do think in the culture, there's this narrative maybe
• 17:59
  that if you're too sweet as a woman, you're a doormat.
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  And there are some women who have unfortunately become
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  doormats because they think that kindness or sweetness equals
• 18:09
  constant. I'm going to use this word,
• 18:10
  which is a, you know, a trigger word, but submission to whatever
• 18:13
  the the show is going on over here, which can include abuse,
• 18:16
  bad things, you know, having boundaries crossed, whatever.
• 18:19
  So what does sweetness and kindness, a consistent sweetness
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  and kindness to your man look like in the context of healthy
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  boundaries? Because the naturally sweet
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  women I've noticed in my life, my my life experience, some of
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  the more like naturally tend to tend to sweetness.
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  And if they don't have maybe good moral models or they
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  struggle with people pleasing they are, they do tend to get
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  into sometimes relationships that are not healthy, where
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  boundaries are crossed and they open themselves up to unhealthy
• 18:47
  treatment. You have to have some of this
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  going on in your relationship where it's just going to be
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  flat. So I am not suggesting anything
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  like being a doormat, but I understand your point.
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  And I do think there are women who some women who struggle with
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  that. I don't think that they're the
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  norm today. I, I, I because of the way the
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  culture fosters the hard charging women woman.
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  She's more common from my experience, certainly than than
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  the docile sort of submissive type.
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  But you're right, there's a balance there and those women
• 19:22
  need to understand that it's this isn't about your not having
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  your needs met or your opinions heard, and that those opinions
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  matter just as much as everybody else's.
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  Those women probably will struggle more to learn how to
• 19:38
  speak up rather than what I'm speaking to.
• 19:41
  Certainly in that book Alpha, which was I was speaking to a
• 19:43
  different type of woman who needs to tone it back.
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  You're speaking, I think, to the woman who needs to learn how to
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  stand up for herself and speak up and know that your voice is
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  not any less important than your man's or anybody else's for that
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  matter. And that's that's a different
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  skill. That's a different skill.
• 19:59
  Learning how to make sure you put yourself out there and make
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  sure you're heard and have an equal say in in, in matters.
• 20:09
  That's not really the women I work with.
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  They're the ones that I specialize in, but I I
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  understand that they that they are there.
• 20:15
  So I think it's a good point you're making because it's
• 20:17
  basically there's different personalities and life
• 20:19
  experiences that make you kind of naturally respond or tend to
• 20:23
  respond one way or another. Let's go back to the alpha
• 20:26
  woman, because as you say, that's that's your your
• 20:28
  expertise. And I agree, I do think the
• 20:29
  culture is trying to shape those sort of, you know, women in the
• 20:32
  boardroom, you know, women equal number of women at the in the
• 20:36
  C-Suite as anywhere else. So what does it look like to
• 20:40
  channel your alpha in your relationship with your husband
• 20:45
  in a way that you are maximizing the the goodness of that
• 20:50
  relationship? You're really leaning into a
• 20:53
  healthy, healthy relationship. Just overall now you're not
• 20:56
  talking about a certain pet personality type.
• 20:57
  Well, I mean we're talking kind of alphas, I guess, like the the
• 21:00
  woman that has that alpha personality that the the the
• 21:03
  kind of high achieving leader, natural leader type woman.
• 21:07
  You know, I think at the base of this is understanding that this
• 21:11
  isn't a contest you're not in a fight with, Well, hopefully not
• 21:16
  with men as a rule, but hopefully it's definitely
• 21:18
  hopefully not with your spouse. So when you have this mindset,
• 21:24
  well, here's an example. I.
• 21:27
  I'm really put off and concerned about the terminology that a lot
• 21:32
  of millennials and Gen. Zeer's even now coming up behind
• 21:35
  them are using, that they've been taught to use, which are
• 21:39
  words like his and hers contribute.
• 21:44
  They often have to do with money, but the mindset is very
• 21:49
  much an individualistic you're here and I'm here and you're in
• 21:55
  a you're in a fight for fairness.
• 21:58
  Equality. Equality and it's so ingrained
• 22:02
  in them they don't even know I don't think that that's what
• 22:04
  that's how it started and that's what they're doing now.
• 22:06
  It's just in the culture, but it is so telling that you're
• 22:11
  struggling your with your relationship because of the way
• 22:14
  you're thinking about it. And so the, the alpha thing kind
• 22:18
  of goes hand in hand with that because your man isn't trying to
• 22:21
  hold you down or back or oppress you in any way.
• 22:24
  And if you think that he is in some way, you're going to
• 22:27
  constantly be looking for your part of the pie.
• 22:29
  And you're you know, you're going to have to, you're going
• 22:31
  to think you're in a power struggle when in fact you're,
• 22:33
  you're not. He wants you to be happy.
• 22:36
  He wants to serve you. He wants to help you be happy.
• 22:40
  That's all he lives for. So it's a real mind shift about
• 22:43
  men really and, and women and the relationship that they have
• 22:49
  and what it's how it's meant to work versus how you've been
• 22:53
  taught to think it's supposed to work.
• 22:55
  Complementary versus competitive.
• 22:58
  And you've been not you personally, but your generation
• 23:00
  has been raised in the and certainly partly mine has been
• 23:04
  raised to believe it needs to be or should be competitive,
• 23:07
  competitive, when in reality it was supposed to be
• 23:09
  complementary. And that, in my opinion, is the
• 23:13
  reason why so many young couples are struggling.
• 23:16
  That's it. At the core of it is that
• 23:18
  misunderstanding that they, that this idea that a woman who's not
• 23:22
  bringing home a paycheck for X amount of years while she's home
• 23:25
  with her kids is somehow less than.
• 23:28
  I mean, that was something that was, that was junk that they
• 23:30
  were sold. Those are lies that they've been
• 23:33
  fed, that they believe, and because they never had anybody
• 23:37
  tell them otherwise, you know, there's no understanding that it
• 23:41
  it doesn't matter what role you're playing within the
• 23:44
  marriage because ultimately you're a team working toward the
• 23:48
  same goal. Doesn't really matter if he's
• 23:51
  bringing home the paycheck and you're not.
• 23:53
  You're his paycheck is your paycheck.
• 23:55
  This is so frustrating for me because people look at me like
• 23:58
  I'm crazy because they've never heard that before.
• 24:02
  That's why they say like my husband's money or his money or
• 24:05
  how can I say it's his money? Or his career.
• 24:07
  What? What?
• 24:08
  No, no, that's not how it is. It's it's one.
• 24:11
  You are one unit. You are a family.
• 24:14
  You are. That's what marriage is.
• 24:16
  You become one and you're two people doing maybe separate
• 24:20
  tasks, but working toward the same goal.
• 24:23
  His money is your money. He's you're, you're working it
• 24:25
  every day. You're doing the hardest job in
• 24:27
  the world. And he wants to support that.
• 24:29
  So all of these things have been lost in this land of equality
• 24:34
  that we live in. This attempt to be really, it's
• 24:37
  wasn't about equality. It's about interchangeability,
• 24:39
  about pretending that men and women essentially don't have any
• 24:42
  differences when of course they do.
• 24:44
  And then those differences show up big time once the children
• 24:48
  arrive. And that's when, you know,
• 24:52
  because they weren't set up to understand that that was going
• 24:56
  to happen when the babies came, You know, that the, oh, my gosh,
• 24:58
  I want to be home. But we made all these decisions
• 25:00
  based on a different set of priorities or a different set of
• 25:02
  beliefs. And now I don't know how I can
• 25:04
  be home financially and my husband won't support me.
• 25:07
  And I'm getting ahead of myself. I know you want to talk about
• 25:09
  it. No.
• 25:10
  I do want to, I mean, that's, it's funny, I'm thinking, oh,
• 25:11
  there's so many things here to talk about.
• 25:13
  OK, So, well, let's stay with that for a moment because I
• 25:17
  think it is connected to the whole alpha and femininity,
• 25:20
  masculinity in the relationship. So for married couples and I've,
• 25:23
  you know, I've run into this in my own community, friends who
• 25:28
  are married and yeah, they have their children.
• 25:30
  And then they realize I don't want to be working full time.
• 25:33
  Or if I'm going to have a full time job, I want it to be very
• 25:36
  different than the one I have because the one I have is not
• 25:38
  flexible and conducive to the household.
• 25:40
  And so I need to take a pay cut or I need to just quit or these
• 25:43
  are the desires that the woman might be experiencing, but
• 25:46
  they're on this two income household.
• 25:48
  This is how they're they bought their house.
• 25:50
  This is how they're set up. And there may also be concerns
• 25:55
  or, you know, miscommunications between the spouses where the
• 25:57
  husband was expecting her to bring home at least some of the
• 26:00
  bacon to support the family economically.
• 26:04
  How do you navigate that? It's a mess.
• 26:06
  I mean, I'm going to be honest with you, it is a mess.
• 26:08
  Those are the people who call me in their 30s.
• 26:10
  Most of my clients are in their are in their 30s.
• 26:12
  I do get single women too, but but mostly they're in their 30s
• 26:16
  and that's what and they're married.
• 26:18
  And that's why I wrote How to Build a Better Life.
• 26:21
  And the subtitle is A new road map for women who want to
• 26:25
  prioritize love and family so that you can start early on
• 26:31
  mapping out a life that doesn't have you calling me when you're
• 26:35
  35, right? There's a whole different way to
• 26:38
  do life and it's the counter cultural way.
• 26:42
  It's not the way the culture's going to teach, but it's a way
• 26:44
  that works and it's practical. It's just not PC, so people
• 26:49
  don't hear it. So one of that's one of those
• 26:51
  things starts with choosing a career that works well with
• 26:54
  motherhood. You know, my parents taught me
• 26:57
  this. They were, they're not here
• 26:58
  anymore, but they were born in 1922 and 1930.
• 27:02
  So they're part of the greatest generation and highly educated,
• 27:07
  very successful and also extremely practical.
• 27:10
  We don't get a lot of that anymore.
• 27:12
  So I'm pretty practical through and through.
• 27:14
  And I'm like, I don't care if it's popular.
• 27:16
  It works, You know, So one of them is find a career that
• 27:19
  motherhood can accommodate. It's flexible.
• 27:22
  You can do it part time. You can do it from home.
• 27:24
  You can leave and come back relatively easily.
• 27:27
  You know, nursing and teaching are obvious ones for those.
• 27:30
  But when you talk about that, you know, you get blowback
• 27:34
  because what are you saying that women shouldn't be able to, you
• 27:37
  know, do whatever they want to do?
• 27:41
  Sure, you can. No one's stopping you.
• 27:43
  And you're certainly capable, but you're probably not going to
• 27:47
  want to. And it doesn't feel that way now
• 27:49
  when you're 22, but it will 10 years from now, I can almost
• 27:51
  guarantee it. And so your life priorities
• 27:55
  change as a woman and you in your life has seasons.
• 27:58
  And it's different for a man. His, his path is very linear,
• 28:01
  right? Find woman, have babies, make
• 28:04
  money for babies. I mean, it's, it's not, it's not
• 28:08
  much more complicated than that. They don't have bodies that
• 28:11
  produce life and that breastfeed and that nurture in those early
• 28:14
  years in the same way. And so they think differently,
• 28:18
  whether or not they even realize they're thinking differently.
• 28:20
  It's just natural. So why not tell this to young
• 28:25
  women early on and stop pretending that they're not any
• 28:29
  different from men? Raise your daughters differently
• 28:32
  than you raise your sons. That's a good thing.
• 28:34
  That's a controversial statement, but.
• 28:37
  And it has nothing to do with ability.
• 28:39
  You can do whatever you want, whatever you set your mind to
• 28:42
  do. This is not an intellectual
• 28:45
  competition or even an ability competition.
• 28:49
  This is about the fact that your body does this, his doesn't, and
• 28:53
  therefore your trajectory is going to look different.
• 28:55
  Plus he's a man, you're a woman and you're not the same.
• 28:58
  And those differences are going to come glaring at you when you
• 29:00
  have children. And that's there's a way to
• 29:03
  assume that ahead of time. And even if I'm wrong and that
• 29:07
  doesn't happen, at least you've set yourself up for success.
• 29:09
  And you don't have to follow that path, but at least you have
• 29:11
  options down the road. So, for example, if you are
• 29:14
  going into a hard charging career with no thoughts of
• 29:16
  marriage and motherhood and you're postponing all of that
• 29:19
  and you're, you know, laser focused, you're going to find
• 29:22
  yourself stuck. And you're like, all of a sudden
• 29:24
  you have to find a husband, have babies, financially figure this
• 29:27
  out, figure out what to do with your career because it's
• 29:30
  connected, you know, because it's colliding with your clock,
• 29:33
  biological clock, all in your 30s.
• 29:35
  This is a terrible plan. It's it doesn't work for most
• 29:39
  people. There's outliers, you know,
• 29:41
  there's people for whom it has worked out, but I wouldn't bank
• 29:44
  on it. So why, why, why do this all in
• 29:48
  the name of politics and so-called equality when you're
• 29:52
  the one who's going to get hurt and you know, politically they
• 29:54
  may win and get what they want, but your life isn't.
• 29:59
  And so, so that's, that's the most obvious change in my
• 30:03
  opinion, is choosing a career that works well with motherhood.
• 30:06
  Such good advice. And it's funny, there's so many
• 30:08
  big corporations now that are offering egg freezing and
• 30:12
  reproductive technologies because they want the they want
• 30:15
  the fertile years of that woman to be their workhorse and to
• 30:18
  delay and postpone, like you said, love and marriage and
• 30:21
  kids. And they're kind of promising.
• 30:23
  Well, you can do it when you're 40 and some people, women can
• 30:26
  make it happen when they're 40. But I mean, apart from even the
• 30:29
  ethic ethical concerns with all of that, which there are
• 30:31
  tremendous ones, it's very ethically fraught.
• 30:34
  I would say immoral, but alongside it's just not even.
• 30:38
  Practical. It's not practical.
• 30:40
  Bingo. Definitely ethically
• 30:43
  questionable, but more importantly impractical.
• 30:46
  Work with the body God gave you. This is what you have.
• 30:49
  Work with it. It's meant to be worked with.
• 30:51
  It will work for you if you work with it for most people instead
• 30:56
  of, you know, trying to fight it and twist it and turn it to to
• 31:00
  benefit you or benefit more specifically your your career
• 31:05
  plans. What what careers would you
• 31:08
  recommend for women and what's a good kind of rubric for how
• 31:12
  women should think about getting into career and also college for
• 31:16
  that matter, and higher education?
• 31:19
  Yeah, well, you're asking me what my thoughts are in college.
• 31:22
  I think it's going to change dramatically in the next 10
• 31:24
  years. I do not think it cannot
• 31:26
  continue this way. I think trades are gonna come
• 31:28
  back. I think people are going to stop
• 31:30
  paying this a ridiculous amount for a stop going into student
• 31:36
  debt, college debt. This is crazy.
• 31:38
  If you can't afford it, you take out a small loan or you don't
• 31:40
  go, or you go to a smaller college.
• 31:42
  You figure something out. Our community.
• 31:43
  Colleges, our community colleges, quit taking on.
• 31:45
  You are setting yourself up to fail by taking on this debt.
• 31:48
  There's a domino effect when you take that on because you can't
• 31:52
  afford things down the line and then all of a sudden your your
• 31:54
  life gets backed up with this debt.
• 31:56
  So there's that also, I mean, in terms of what careers there are,
• 32:03
  there are the obvious ones that are like I said before, nursing
• 32:06
  and teaching, but there and a lot of other ones that are more
• 32:10
  traditional that way that work with motherhood.
• 32:12
  But there's also a lot of ways to go into law and medicine, as
• 32:14
  we were talking about that, that you can do down the road part
• 32:19
  time and aren't as demanding. Really what I'm honed in on are
• 32:24
  the demanding full time, all of your focus.
• 32:28
  That's your life kind of career. And that's supposed to be
• 32:31
  considered empowering. And it, and it might feel that
• 32:34
  way for a year or two, but not for long.
• 32:37
  Not for long because you have no life if you choose those types
• 32:40
  of careers. That's politics.
• 32:42
  That's for some, in some cases, medicine and law.
• 32:44
  That's why I'm saying be careful about which which kind that you
• 32:48
  choose in that, in that I mean, we know with law and medicine
• 32:51
  that there are more females in schools getting those degrees
• 32:56
  and also dropping out down the line.
• 32:58
  It is crazy. I think it's 60% of women, 60%
• 33:01
  of people graduating law school today are women, 60%, but law of
• 33:06
  all professions. I mean, there's also, you know,
• 33:08
  the medical field too, but your sheer hours requirement if
• 33:11
  you're full time, it's it's brutal.
• 33:14
  If you're trying to be a mother I, it's almost impossible.
• 33:17
  And so they step back and out if that doesn't show you.
• 33:19
  And men don't do that, the men who are in law.
• 33:22
  So you're saying statistically the men are staying in and the
• 33:25
  women are leading, but more women are entering?
• 33:27
  Correct. Showing that there's an interest
• 33:29
  there, right but then reality hits in a way if for them in a
• 33:34
  way that it doesn't for a man. And you can, you can respond to
• 33:36
  that one of two ways. You can get up in arms about
• 33:38
  that and try to change the world and try to get all political
• 33:41
  about it. Or you can just work with your
• 33:43
  own life and choose something that works for you and stay in.
• 33:47
  Stay focused on you and what you want for your life, not what the
• 33:50
  culture's going to do. Here's a controversial question.
• 33:52
  Do you think that the lack of ability of most men to provide
• 33:59
  for a family on a single income, or at least a parent lack of
• 34:03
  ability, We're going to get into your, you know, secret guide for
• 34:05
  how you can make it work with on a single income.
• 34:08
  But is that in part because we just said, oh, women absolutely
• 34:12
  should be in the workforce? Oh, 100%.
• 34:15
  Remember when you or when I said men will respond to whatever,
• 34:18
  mostly what women are doing, they're going to respond to it.
• 34:22
  My argument has been that, you know, we basically said women
• 34:27
  want men's lives, so then we go out and we told women to create
• 34:32
  their lives like men. So they did.
• 34:35
  So men here, men are looking at it like, well, if that's what
• 34:38
  they want and that's what makes them happy, OK.
• 34:41
  And so they support it. And then in their own way, sort
• 34:43
  of step back because a man is going to naturally kind of get
• 34:48
  out of your way if you want to shine.
• 34:52
  And that will compete with his desire to provide, which is
• 34:55
  innate in him in a way that it isn't for a woman.
• 34:58
  A woman does not typically have an innate desire to provide for
• 35:03
  her husband. That's not really her impetus
• 35:06
  for working generally if she's married.
• 35:09
  But for a man, it's everything. And so he's sort of in this tug
• 35:14
  of war between his inherent need to provide and then looking at
• 35:18
  his wife wanting to do that and trying to work with it rather
• 35:25
  than say, hey, don't, I'm going to do this.
• 35:27
  They don't do that, men as a rule.
• 35:29
  And so they're kind of stepping back professionally.
• 35:34
  And there's more reasons for this.
• 35:35
  We have father absence it it's a mess really what's going on with
• 35:38
  men. And we go down a rabbit hole
• 35:40
  there. But generally speaking, they're
• 35:43
  they're stepping back because this is what women said they
• 35:46
  wanted. And then women are finding out,
• 35:48
  wait, we're all the good men. Where'd they go when they really
• 35:50
  mean is we're all the marriageable man men, which
• 35:53
  really means we're all the employed men.
• 35:55
  Why aren't they on a track? I can't stay home if they're
• 35:57
  not. I mean, that's so.
• 35:58
  I mean by it's a mess. You're, you're, you're it's so
• 36:01
  boiled down in a good way, the way you're just like, we're all
• 36:04
  the good men. Actually with the marriage alone
• 36:05
  men, actually the employed men. I mean, really it, it, it comes.
• 36:08
  I mean, just say what it is. Or the men with employment
• 36:11
  prospects don't put that in there.
• 36:12
  Meaning they're hard working. They're on a path to be a
• 36:15
  provider, yes, and not just live on the couch or whatever.
• 36:18
  Correct. I mean, we've, we've created the
• 36:20
  men we have today as a society. We, it's, it's our fault.
• 36:24
  And by our I mean political, really women, political previous
• 36:29
  generation I mean. Churches.
• 36:33
  They've been afraid. They've been afraid to really
• 36:37
  what we're talking about is feminists.
• 36:39
  That's really how this all started.
• 36:40
  So it's you don't even use that label anymore because it's just
• 36:44
  in the culture. It's just how you think, how
• 36:46
  you've been taught to think. But that's really how it
• 36:48
  emanated. And even churches are afraid to
• 36:51
  stand up to that mindset or lack of a better word.
• 36:58
  So they they jump on, they've jumped on board too.
• 37:00
  And it used to be that we could count on churches to sort of
• 37:03
  help women kind of in the way that I'm trying to help women in
• 37:06
  a more with a more balanced approach.
• 37:09
  But no, they're just as political from you would know
• 37:12
  more about that than I would. But but yeah, that's my
• 37:15
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• 38:29
  So what does it look like for a young woman?
• 38:32
  OK, you're recommending find the career and make your educational
• 38:36
  decision, your education, your decisions for education based on
• 38:40
  practical considerations, how much it will cost, can you
• 38:43
  afford this? Is this career going to be
• 38:45
  flexible in the future for a child that you may hope to have
• 38:48
  when you're married, etcetera, right?
• 38:50
  What about finding that husband? What's your best advice?
• 38:54
  My best advice is for that is people think, you know, there's
• 38:58
  no question that dating has changed dramatically and it is I
• 39:03
  would not want to be 23 today. At all.
• 39:07
  I feel like I got the last out of the out of the war because I
• 39:12
  yeah, I got married at 30. I had just turned 30.
• 39:16
  I met my husband at 28 and it was like, OK, I really felt like
• 39:20
  it was God's timing. I want to get married now.
• 39:21
  I hope I get, you know, the Lord willing.
• 39:23
  I was always open to being married in my 20s, but it just
• 39:26
  wasn't the right guy yet. But I look at what the complete
• 39:30
  chaos because dating apps were around when I was dating and you
• 39:33
  know, but now it's like that's it seems like everyone's best
• 39:36
  hope is the dating app. I know, I know.
• 39:38
  As as problematic as dating has become, I don't think it's as
• 39:42
  complicated as people think. There is a way to do it more
• 39:48
  strategically and a little bit more businesslike at from the
• 39:52
  get go so that you keep yourself from ending up with somebody for
• 39:58
  years. You basically you shouldn't be
• 40:00
  spending so much time trying to figure it out.
• 40:02
  It should be kind of pretty obvious early on.
• 40:05
  So how do you do that? What do you mean by that?
• 40:06
  I'll just give you an example. I'll just use me as an example.
• 40:09
  I, I was married at 23, divorced at 27, remarried, no kids.
• 40:15
  That was my college boyfriend. Remarried at 30, had my kids at
• 40:19
  32 and 35. So let's just put that
• 40:21
  trajectory out there so people know where I'm coming from.
• 40:24
  When I met my second husband, it and you don't have to be 29.
• 40:28
  I met him when I was 29, but you could do this at 23.
• 40:30
  Within three dates, we knew where each of us was headed.
• 40:35
  I don't I wouldn't say we decided we were going to get
• 40:37
  married obviously that early, but we knew right away what the
• 40:40
  other person wanted and what the plan was.
• 40:43
  And that includes work and family, by the way, who
• 40:45
  conversations that people just aren't having.
• 40:48
  And what I say is why wouldn't that come up when you're dating?
• 40:51
  I mean, isn't what else are you doing if you're not doing it the
• 40:55
  cultural way, which is, oh, don't worry about marriage
• 40:58
  later. Just have fun hook up.
• 41:00
  You know, this all this terrible messaging about dating that
• 41:04
  women are becoming part of is keeping them from having
• 41:11
  substantive conversations early on in the dating process, I
• 41:15
  think out of fear that the man will run or something if they
• 41:18
  know that you want to get married or if you're looking
• 41:20
  together. Than than good for for.
• 41:22
  Great sign there. You go move on.
• 41:25
  You just saved me a a lot of times.
• 41:27
  Probably years of your life potentially.
• 41:29
  Yeah. It's such a good point, Suzanne.
• 41:32
  What's wrong with that? I don't understand.
• 41:33
  So what you're saying is it's such a good point 'cause I, I
• 41:35
  think I, I, I see this a lot with young women today that they
• 41:39
  want to not come on too strong. And I'm not talking about like
• 41:43
  sexually, because we're, that should be off the table to get
• 41:45
  married. I'm talking about in terms of
• 41:48
  what they're looking for, they're dating for marriage and
• 41:50
  they want to kind of play it, be fun, be chill, play it cool, you
• 41:54
  know, be kind of normal, whatever.
• 41:56
  And so they don't want to come across as like, yeah, I'm, I'm
• 41:58
  in this, I'm in this like a business to, you know, get
• 42:01
  married. Like this is a, this is a
• 42:03
  decision that is very serious that I'm looking to make.
• 42:06
  Like they don't want to come across too intense.
• 42:09
  How? How?
• 42:10
  Do you so? OK, so.
• 42:12
  What do you do? Nothing wrong with having fun
• 42:16
  when you're dating have have a good time.
• 42:18
  But presumably, and here's another thing that's really
• 42:23
  supposedly so taboo, I say, if you're not having sex, which you
• 42:28
  shouldn't be in the beginning anyway, what else are you doing?
• 42:32
  I mean, what is dating if you're not going out and having
• 42:36
  conversations for hours and hours and hours?
• 42:39
  You're on the phone, you're on FaceTime, you're face to face.
• 42:41
  What are you doing? If you're not having sex, you're
• 42:44
  presumably talking a lot. And what are you talking about?
• 42:48
  Are you talking about the weather or are you talking about
• 42:49
  your upbringing, your past history, what you want, where
• 42:53
  you're going? Like, that's the most natural
• 42:55
  thing in the world to me. Well, why can't you have those
• 42:58
  substantive conversations while you're also having fun?
• 43:02
  You go out and enjoy a nice meal, you go to the movies, you
• 43:04
  do whatever, but you're also talking about you.
• 43:07
  You're just being real. Just be real.
• 43:10
  If you don't feel like you can be real, then you're probably
• 43:12
  not with the right person. So there's a lot of sort of
• 43:15
  quick red flags at the beginning.
• 43:18
  If it feels wrong, it probably is.
• 43:20
  If it's icky, it probably is 'cause it is icky.
• 43:26
  And you'll know when you've found at least a match if the
• 43:32
  conversation flows super easily and if there's no game playing.
• 43:38
  You're just, you're being you. And he's being his his self
• 43:42
  himself in response. And this advice, I think works
• 43:46
  because it works when you as the woman putting on the woman's
• 43:50
  role here, you know where you're at, you have self-awareness, you
• 43:53
  know where you're aiming toward what you're aiming towards.
• 43:56
  Because if you are going into dating just looking for like
• 43:58
  affirmation or to quell loneliness, then you're, you're
• 44:03
  maybe not going to have the red flags, won't feel like red flags
• 44:06
  because you're on the wrong path anyways.
• 44:07
  Pick. Up on.
• 44:08
  That and, and and there'll be issues on that end too.
• 44:11
  So you you've got, I think so I think maybe starting with the
• 44:13
  proper disposition for going into dating as a woman would be
• 44:17
  what? Excellent, good point.
• 44:19
  Knowing what you want and where you're going and who you are.
• 44:22
  I mean, you said it yourself, you're absolutely right.
• 44:24
  That's an excellent point. And when you bring that to the
• 44:27
  table, that's that's addicting. I mean, he's going to want to be
• 44:30
  around that. He wants a woman who knows what
• 44:32
  she's doing and where she's going and what she wants.
• 44:36
  I just think there's too much, too much of A move like a like a
• 44:40
  board game, like a move. And then you wait to see what he
• 44:42
  does. And then you just the same way
• 44:45
  that you would have presumably maybe spent time in high school
• 44:48
  with the opposite sex being yourself a little more
• 44:51
  comfortable space because you're not thinking about marriage,
• 44:54
  same kind of thing as that. Is it ever OK for the woman to
• 44:57
  make the first move? What do you think about that?
• 45:03
  So the short answer is no, but, and there's a reason for that.
• 45:08
  It's a there's a practical reason for that.
• 45:09
  I keep using the word practical. You want a man who who sees what
• 45:13
  he wants and can go after it. That's.
• 45:14
  Really. What about the dropping hanker?
• 45:16
  I. Was just going to say that I
• 45:18
  love it I. Love it, but that's a move.
• 45:21
  That's a move. Absolutely.
• 45:23
  The only caveat to that is exactly what you've said, and
• 45:27
  women have been doing it for centuries.
• 45:28
  You strategically place yourself in his line of sight and maybe
• 45:34
  it is dropping. I don't think we have
• 45:35
  handkerchiefs anymore, Lila, but.
• 45:38
  But what does it look like in the modern world?
• 45:39
  Because. I mean, it might, it just might
• 45:41
  be walking to the bathroom and dropping.
• 45:45
  Yeah. I mean, it might be dropping
• 45:46
  something, you know, or bumping into or being near, just just
• 45:50
  not making the overture as if you're the man coming up to hit
• 45:56
  on him. So you're not going to hit on
• 45:57
  him in an open way. Well, in a way, what you're
• 46:00
  saying, it sounds like in a way the woman kind of does make the
• 46:03
  first move, but it's kind of a sneaky move, yes.
• 46:06
  And this does seem, I mean, I'm pushing on this a little bit
• 46:09
  'cause you were saying earlier, it's not like a board game.
• 46:11
  It's not like a change of game of chess.
• 46:13
  But I do think there's a little bit of a dance.
• 46:15
  There's like a, a cadence, I would say, to getting to know
• 46:20
  someone. And sometimes it just kind of
• 46:21
  happens. It kind of falls on your lap or
• 46:23
  just sort of like, you know, that's the wrong, wrong
• 46:25
  terminology to use. But it kind of just, you know,
• 46:27
  it just unfolds. But sometimes, you know, you got
• 46:30
  to be, I think, strategic in terms of putting yourself, like
• 46:33
  you said, in places where you're most likely to meet a guy or
• 46:36
  being available. Even doing the dating apps, I've
• 46:39
  met so many girls. I mean probably half the women I
• 46:42
  know in the last decade who have successfully gotten married met
• 46:45
  their guy in an app. Let me answer that just for a
• 46:47
  moment because I as much as I don't have personal experience
• 46:50
  with that. I was with my daughter and her
• 46:52
  roommate a couple weeks ago and she was doing the back on the
• 46:55
  dating app. She'd taken a rest for a few
• 46:56
  months and she goes back on there and I'd never actually
• 46:59
  watched it in action. So I watched how she put the
• 47:01
  thing together and how you hit these things and then they
• 47:03
  respond, right. I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is I
• 47:06
  was I could see it being very addicting and also kind of scary
• 47:11
  in a way because you have everything out there and you
• 47:14
  basically have to try to find a diamond in the rough, right?
• 47:18
  Well, the woman is if it's a match.
• 47:20
  So the guy clicked on it or. Depends on those sites.
• 47:24
  Some sites the woman makes the like coffee means bagel.
• 47:27
  The woman makes the first move. Yeah, no, that I.
• 47:29
  Don't like, but if they respond, if you put yourself out there
• 47:32
  and they respond, then you can respond back because they're you
• 47:36
  put yourself out there, they're responding and then you're
• 47:40
  responding to the response. But I wouldn't call him or text
• 47:44
  him first ever ever ever. And I I agree with that.
• 47:47
  And if they would do that or don't, then he's not your person
• 47:50
  because he doesn't have the ability to go out there and get
• 47:53
  it. What if he leaves his number?
• 47:54
  Should you call him? No.
• 47:57
  No. Why would he leave his number?
• 48:00
  I'm just saying like you're out and about and a guy leaves you
• 48:03
  his number. Oh, super excited to talk to
• 48:05
  you. Can't wait.
• 48:06
  But that's all you got. He's already gone.
• 48:07
  I don't know. I'm just.
• 48:09
  We're just. I don't know how these works.
• 48:11
  You're making eye contact. You're single.
• 48:12
  You're like you're the guy. Yeah.
• 48:14
  I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
• 48:15
  Yeah. OK, say it again.
• 48:17
  'Cause you're saying never text first, but let's say you're out
• 48:20
  and you meet some guy and he somehow leaves you his number,
• 48:23
  or he gives his number to a friend to give to you and he
• 48:25
  says can you call me? But you know, if you want to
• 48:27
  talk to me, can you call me? Or something like this.
• 48:29
  Well, first of all, no, I would. That's a hard one, because I
• 48:33
  would. Either sometimes I would either
• 48:35
  say first. Of all I would hope that that
• 48:38
  and because to me in my world it was the other way around the
• 48:40
  guys would say can I have your number?
• 48:42
  That was just what you did. So now I'm having to put myself
• 48:45
  gosh, are people really doing that?
• 48:46
  Would a guy? Actually, I've heard that.
• 48:47
  So if they do, I would say, well, I don't call guys, but if
• 48:49
  you want my number you can or. I like that.
• 48:52
  I would just say I don't if. You think if you like him, give
• 48:54
  him your. I'm just like, here's mine.
• 48:56
  I like that. I think the bottom line of what
• 48:58
  you're saying, which I really like, is that you want to
• 49:00
  empower the man to be the leader and you want you are leading in
• 49:05
  a different way, in a receptive way back headed or whatever it
• 49:10
  is. But you want to give him the
• 49:11
  opportunity. You want to createspace just
• 49:13
  like the conversation stuff you're that great advice earlier
• 49:15
  about like let them talk like let the other.
• 49:18
  And by the way, this works for friendship too, quite frankly,
• 49:20
  or really any relationship, your kids, but especially with your
• 49:23
  husband, like you want to give him space to to talk.
• 49:25
  You want to give him space to to share in dating.
• 49:28
  You want to give him the opportunity, if you're
• 49:30
  interested in space, to ask you out to pursue you.
• 49:34
  And in fairness to men today, they've been basically, I mean,
• 49:39
  they've been told their masculinity is toxic and so they
• 49:41
  don't know what to do anymore. They don't even I think they are
• 49:45
  genuinely confused. You know, back in my day, man,
• 49:48
  just like I said, you, just you, you made the overture and if you
• 49:52
  got turned down, oh, I'll move, move on to the next one.
• 49:54
  We were a lot thicker skinned in my day.
• 49:56
  It was just a little different. And that's why I wondered,
• 49:59
  because it is. It is so confused today.
• 50:04
  To be a little nicer to understand.
• 50:06
  The man may not be reaching out for that reason, Yes.
• 50:09
  I agree with you and to maybe be willing to take the risk.
• 50:11
  Like I have one friend and her story is I mean she's very
• 50:14
  feminine, he's very masculine. She did ask him out, but she
• 50:18
  could tell he was interested or she really thought he was and he
• 50:20
  and and she could tell like based on personality and and
• 50:23
  culture. Probably.
• 50:24
  She wasn't sure if he had permission.
• 50:27
  You know. So it's complicated, right?
• 50:29
  It's. Complicated.
• 50:30
  I do think that these massive cultural changes have created a
• 50:35
  very messy situation where people are almost frozen, they
• 50:39
  don't know what to do. So you do have to read it a
• 50:42
  little bit better. You have to read the room, read
• 50:43
  him. And it's not a hard line thing.
• 50:46
  It's not like that would never work if you made the overture.
• 50:48
  It's just generally speaking, if you're, if you think you've met
• 50:55
  somebody who, who, who isn't quite, what do you call that?
• 51:01
  Pulling the trigger, not pulling the trigger.
• 51:04
  Pulling the trigger. I guess that's where you use
• 51:07
  your feminine Wiles. Try to figure out how to maybe
• 51:12
  get him to feel more confident about asking you.
• 51:15
  But you could even have a conversation about that.
• 51:19
  Like, what if you had a conversation about what do you
• 51:20
  think about the fact that men have been told that they
• 51:24
  shouldn't, you know, whatever the, you know, have an actual
• 51:27
  social conversation with them that might open him up and get
• 51:29
  him to think, oh, she actually might want me to make an
• 51:32
  overture because she thinks this is really bad.
• 51:34
  What's going on in the culture? That's what I would do.
• 51:36
  My husband and I like to talk. I like that.
• 51:37
  Drop a big hint. Yeah.
• 51:39
  I mean, this would be great when men ask women out.
• 51:41
  Yeah. Something like that.
• 51:43
  Yeah. And then he'll get the hint.
• 51:45
  I, I think of, of a principle that I've, of a North Star
• 51:48
  principle that I've seen with my girlfriends over the years and
• 51:51
  in my own dating history, as if he really wants it and you want
• 51:57
  it and you're around each other enough, it will work, you know,
• 52:00
  and, but it's not going to work. I mean, a lot of women,
• 52:02
  unfortunately, I find, you know, I love the years I've heard from
• 52:05
  a lot of women who they really wanted it, but he didn't want it
• 52:07
  as bad. He didn't want her as badly.
• 52:10
  He didn't maybe want marriage. And so she's just kind of in his
• 52:15
  orbit, like just waiting and waiting and hoping and praying
• 52:18
  and. And all I can say to that is
• 52:21
  that that is a message. If you are in that boat waiting,
• 52:26
  you're the waiting is the message.
• 52:29
  Waiting for him. Yeah, you shouldn't be waiting
• 52:31
  for him. I mean, you should never be
• 52:33
  waiting for a man in that way. He should.
• 52:37
  You will know when a man wants you.
• 52:39
  You'll know. He will not in any way, shape or
• 52:42
  form cower from that. And I would say a lot of things,
• 52:47
  and I learned this the hard way, hard way myself.
• 52:49
  But he does have to be in a in the right.
• 52:56
  A lot of times in those situations, women think that
• 52:58
  they're not wanted. Like it's about them personally.
• 53:02
  And they take it personally, like he doesn't love me.
• 53:05
  But it it's very likely that he just doesn't think he can give
• 53:07
  you what you need. And if a guy doesn't feel like
• 53:11
  he can provide, it's not always about money.
• 53:14
  Provide for you what you need. He's going to read that and try
• 53:19
  to distance himself from you, and a lot of women will read
• 53:24
  that as just not being loved. And that actually isn't true.
• 53:27
  He might love you but think you need somebody else because I
• 53:31
  can't give it to you. And do you think in those cases,
• 53:34
  many times he's right? And it's really hard for women
• 53:37
  to accept that because they we want to believe that love can
• 53:40
  conquer all. Or I'll I'll figure it out or.
• 53:45
  And and that sounds like in that case, they're not, they're not
• 53:48
  matched. Maybe not the match is there.
• 53:50
  Maybe it's not like an emotional, emotional matching
• 53:55
  that's not there, would you say? Or maybe the intellectual
• 53:57
  matching? Emotional matching, but not a
• 53:59
  practical matching or a logistical.
• 54:02
  I mean, this was the story of my first marriage.
• 54:03
  That's why I'm talking about it so emphatically.
• 54:09
  I, you know, it, it can be a logistical problem, a
• 54:12
  geographical problem, you know, wanting different things.
• 54:18
  But I love you. The love is there.
• 54:20
  And I think that's super hard for women because if the love is
• 54:23
  there by God, certainly that was me in my 20s.
• 54:27
  If the love is there, I'll make it happen.
• 54:28
  I'll figure it out. And love isn't enough.
• 54:31
  It's just isn't enough. Not for a lifetime.
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  love you can sacrifice and love requires sacrifice, true love.
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  And I think that, you know that some of the best sort of
• 55:47
  stories, you know, are, I mean, well, Romeo and Juliet, I
• 55:50
  wouldn't say is a good love story.
• 55:51
  It's actually a terrible love story when you think about it,
• 55:53
  because they kill themselves. So don't do that.
• 55:57
  But, you know, there's the stories of falling in love with
• 56:00
  each other, and it's not practical because of economic
• 56:04
  reasons or social status reasons, health reasons, and the
• 56:09
  couple still cultural reasons, and the couple still defies the
• 56:13
  odds and makes it work. And I think that's very
• 56:15
  inspiring. It is and it's very addicting to
• 56:18
  the woman who loves romance and says, well, I'll make I'll be
• 56:20
  one of them. I'll do that.
• 56:22
  If there's if there's 3% that do it, I'll be part.
• 56:24
  Of the but it takes two to tango, right?
• 56:27
  So I think, I think that what you're saying is not that it if
• 56:29
  I'm tell me if I'm misunderstanding, it's not that
• 56:32
  that can't work, it's that that won't work unless they both go
• 56:36
  all in on it. 100%. So, so, so you can't live that
• 56:39
  by yourself. You have to have the man fully
• 56:41
  engaged. And yes, we're going to overcome
• 56:43
  these health challenges or these, you know, family
• 56:46
  differences, cultural differences, whatever.
• 56:48
  If you're both in it to win it, anyone can win it.
• 56:51
  Definitely. But if he's not in it.
• 56:53
  Definitely. Or she, but usually, I mean, I
• 56:57
  shouldn't say usually, but yes, either one.
• 57:00
  Yeah, like I think, I think, I think the fact that people are
• 57:04
  products of divorce, so many people are products of divorce
• 57:06
  today is has been an incredibly huge handicap for them in trying
• 57:12
  to build their own families. And my husband is a product of
• 57:15
  divorce. And what made it different is
• 57:18
  that he knew from day one he was on a mission, you know, to do
• 57:24
  whatever it took to not let that happen to his, to himself or his
• 57:29
  family. And that's a broader mission.
• 57:32
  And I, I believe this, I believe people have to have, going back
• 57:35
  to what I said at love is not enough.
• 57:36
  You have to have some sort of mission that you're on, whether
• 57:39
  it's spiritual, whether it's just keeping your family
• 57:41
  together, whether it's not ending up like your parents,
• 57:43
  whatever bigger than your feelings for the day or the
• 57:46
  month or the week or the year or the event that's going on.
• 57:49
  Because there are all these things that will transpire that
• 57:54
  will make you most people rethink.
• 57:58
  It's normal to wonder if you married the right person, even
• 58:01
  if you have a great marriage. It's normal to have seasons
• 58:05
  where your marriage isn't great even though the marriage is
• 58:07
  great. In other words, it doesn't feel
• 58:09
  great or it's not working great, but that doesn't make it not a
• 58:12
  great marriage. It just means you're going
• 58:13
  through this huge hump. So there's so many different
• 58:18
  ways to look at marriage that is healthy and helpful and so
• 58:24
  different from what you'll ever get from the culture and
• 58:27
  certainly from Hollywood. When you say love is not enough,
• 58:30
  you're not talking about love the choice.
• 58:31
  You're talking about love, the feeling.
• 58:34
  Yes, love the oh, definitely love the feeling.
• 58:37
  You're not going to always feel in love and you're not always
• 58:41
  going to even feel loving on a given day or a given week.
• 58:44
  That's why it's sacrifice and that's why it's a higher calling
• 58:47
  to be married for a lifetime. And, and not many people unless
• 58:54
  they are steeped in, you know, very religion, for example, is
• 58:57
  an obvious one because for some that is their strength and
• 59:03
  motivation for marriage. And that's falling by the
• 59:06
  wayside, as you know as well. So there's just not a lot for
• 59:10
  people to grab on to I think when it comes to marriage and
• 59:13
  they just are looking for help and can't find it.
• 59:18
  I want to talk about the marriage, the practical
• 59:21
  considerations around choosing who to marry, because obviously
• 59:24
  you need to be attracted. Yes.
• 59:26
  Oh, I'm glad you brought that up because I've had people ask me.
• 59:29
  We have everything else, but I'm not really attracted to them.
• 59:31
  Is that OK? I'm like what?
• 59:33
  Why didn't you even ask that? We're.
• 59:35
  How far have we gotten that that's even a question?
• 59:38
  Sorry. I interrupted.
• 59:38
  Yeah, well, I mean, it's the dating app world question too,
• 59:41
  because you're like, oh, we connect on these levels and
• 59:43
  share these interests, But when I actually talk to him and meet
• 59:46
  him in person, I'm like, not drawn to this person in that
• 59:49
  way. Yeah.
• 59:50
  And then people say, well, some people say it will come in time.
• 59:53
  And yeah, that has happened to people.
• 59:54
  I just wouldn't want to personally bank on it.
• 59:56
  It may, but I. Yeah.
• 59:59
  And then how long do you, how long of a time do you do you
• 1:00:02
  give it? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:04
  That could get hairy. So you need to be attracted and
• 1:00:08
  you talked earlier about the good man who's marriageable and
• 1:00:12
  employable or employed at at minimum employable or employed.
• 1:00:16
  Talk to me more about what that means and what women should be
• 1:00:19
  looking for. And then I also want to talk
• 1:00:20
  about it from the perspective of the man, because a man, you
• 1:00:25
  know, should be employed or employable, should be able to be
• 1:00:27
  a provider. And what does that look like
• 1:00:29
  then like for the woman? What's her side of the equation?
• 1:00:33
  You mean for what she brings to the table?
• 1:00:34
  Yeah, I mean. OK, so for for women, because
• 1:00:38
  they're no longer, you know, back in the day, find a man who
• 1:00:41
  can support you, right? You see that on the on the old
• 1:00:43
  films or whatever, or even TV shows.
• 1:00:46
  And that's considered so horrible because women can take
• 1:00:48
  care of themselves. It is just as important for
• 1:00:52
  women today as it was 50 years ago to have a man who can
• 1:00:58
  provide. Because even though we now do
• 1:01:02
  provide in a way that we didn't in the past, that ability,
• 1:01:08
  sorry, not the ability, that whole experience of providing
• 1:01:13
  for ourselves will feel different.
• 1:01:15
  When you have a baby, you're not going to have a baby and feel
• 1:01:19
  then empowered and emboldened to leave him or her and go out and
• 1:01:22
  provide for him or her. That's not what's going to
• 1:01:24
  happen to you as a woman for most women, especially if you're
• 1:01:27
  married. And well, definitely if you're
• 1:01:29
  married, but even if you're not, that's your first instinct is is
• 1:01:34
  going to be to care for your baby emotionally, physically,
• 1:01:37
  not leave them. A man's initial reaction to
• 1:01:41
  becoming a father, his desire for breadwinning, doesn't
• 1:01:44
  recede. It ramps up as soon as he sees
• 1:01:46
  baby. Oh my God, I got to go into, you
• 1:01:48
  know, hyper providing mode. Oh my God, my life is so much
• 1:01:51
  more meaningful now. And I have this little person
• 1:01:56
  who needs me in that to provide. So our natural responses aren't
• 1:02:02
  even the same. And it's that when the
• 1:02:04
  relationship starts to get a little hairy because nobody told
• 1:02:07
  women you need, Amanda can provide.
• 1:02:09
  So what will happen is she'll, she will.
• 1:02:11
  Maybe she married somebody who makes a lot less or not just
• 1:02:14
  that, but who isn't on a a real trajectory for providing for the
• 1:02:21
  long haul or who has not quite found himself yet.
• 1:02:25
  Or they made decisions, like we said earlier, based on two
• 1:02:29
  incomes instead of one. And then when they try to back
• 1:02:32
  off of that, his salary looks a lot different without hers.
• 1:02:35
  Well, when you're dating, you need to still pay attention to
• 1:02:40
  where a man is on the career trajectory path, even though
• 1:02:46
  that seems, what's the word retro?
• 1:02:50
  Because it isn't retro. It may feel retro in the moment
• 1:02:53
  when you're thinking about it, but it won't be five years from
• 1:02:55
  now. So presumably you'd be having
• 1:02:58
  that conversation about whether or not you want to stay home
• 1:03:00
  when you're dating. He will know if you've said
• 1:03:04
  that, that it's going to be on him.
• 1:03:07
  I mean, he's going to know. He knows this quickly.
• 1:03:10
  If you're a career woman or you are temporarily pursuing a
• 1:03:13
  career and then you're going to step out and go back or, or
• 1:03:15
  you're going to step out permanently.
• 1:03:16
  You're going to have a large family.
• 1:03:17
  I mean, he's going to know based on these things you tell him and
• 1:03:21
  he's going to oh, he's like, he's going to do the math in his
• 1:03:24
  head about how much he's going to have to like not, not so much
• 1:03:30
  how much you make, because this isn't about marrying a rich man.
• 1:03:33
  This is about making sure that you that he's on his path and
• 1:03:39
  he's found his way. You don't want to gamble on
• 1:03:42
  that. Now what would?
• 1:03:43
  What would the what would what are you talking about in the
• 1:03:46
  negative? Like what would it look like
• 1:03:48
  that he's not on his path he doesn't really care about?
• 1:03:50
  He doesn't know what he's going to do yet.
• 1:03:52
  Or he. And he doesn't.
• 1:03:53
  Not into his job. He's just got a he has a dead
• 1:03:55
  end job and he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life.
• 1:03:58
  Oh, but that's OK. I love him or I'm going to show
• 1:04:00
  him the way or that kind of thing.
• 1:04:03
  No, he has to have already been on his way and know what he's
• 1:04:08
  going to do to provide because your feelings toward him aren't
• 1:04:13
  going to be enough down the road.
• 1:04:17
  They're not taught to think like that anymore.
• 1:04:19
  You know, even parents don't tell their daughters to look for
• 1:04:21
  a man who's they don't. They're scared.
• 1:04:23
  Even parents, I mean, you asked me about religion or churches
• 1:04:26
  rather their response to the cultural feminist stuff.
• 1:04:29
  Like they've jumped on board. Parents have two.
• 1:04:31
  They're scared to say, like I said, raise your daughters
• 1:04:34
  differently than your sons. You're both capable of doing
• 1:04:37
  these things. But here's what it's likely to
• 1:04:39
  look like for you down the road. I think they're scared of
• 1:04:42
  getting it wrong, meaning they might push a woman or encourage
• 1:04:46
  a girl that this guy is more marriageable in terms of he has
• 1:04:49
  a job or he's seeking a career path of some kind.
• 1:04:52
  Right. But that guy might have some
• 1:04:56
  other terrible issues with him even though he has these good
• 1:04:59
  things going on. Like he is employable or he has
• 1:05:01
  a good job meaning. Well, it's not all.
• 1:05:02
  It's not enough. Right.
• 1:05:03
  It's not enough. No, we're talking prerequisites,
• 1:05:06
  yeah. It's just a basic variable, like
• 1:05:08
  you're employed or you're not, or you know where you're going
• 1:05:10
  or you don't. And you're probably not going to
• 1:05:12
  want to wait around to see whether or not it's going to
• 1:05:15
  work out. That's that's the issue.
• 1:05:17
  It's not this is all that matters.
• 1:05:18
  And don't worry if he's got character or.
• 1:05:20
  But I think that I think the core there is you want someone
• 1:05:23
  who's hard working, honest and driven.
• 1:05:26
  Driven not because they're necessarily just want to be like
• 1:05:28
  the boss of the world, but maybe they do, but driven because they
• 1:05:32
  want to be able to provide. Because I, you know, there's so
• 1:05:34
  many stories about those young couples who get married at 19
• 1:05:38
  and they built, you know, he had, he came from nothing.
• 1:05:40
  He had nothing, but he was going to work really hard and pursue
• 1:05:44
  every opportunity to provide. And he makes it, you know, and
• 1:05:48
  they build that life together. So, so you're not saying you
• 1:05:51
  should just go find someone who is already made it.
• 1:05:53
  You're talking about finding someone who's on the path.
• 1:05:56
  Correct. Who?
• 1:05:57
  Who's found his purpose? Maybe that's a better way of
• 1:05:59
  saying it. Who's has a plan?
• 1:06:02
  How about that? A man with a plan 'cause you
• 1:06:05
  might meet him at 19 or 20, he's not making anything yet.
• 1:06:07
  Or he's has not, but he's, he knows what you know.
• 1:06:11
  You said that that a woman should know what she wants and
• 1:06:14
  who she is before she even dates, right?
• 1:06:17
  So should he. Yeah.
• 1:06:18
  That's it. You're looking for two people
• 1:06:20
  who know who they are and where they're going.
• 1:06:22
  And that might even seem like a tall order because so many
• 1:06:25
  people in our culture don't know where they're going.
• 1:06:27
  They don't. They're what they're wrestling
• 1:06:28
  with who they are. They don't even know what
• 1:06:31
  marriage means. I mean, but.
• 1:06:32
  That's not somebody who's marriageable at that time,
• 1:06:35
  right? Male or female, right?
• 1:06:36
  That person is not ready, and sometimes they're 45 year olds
• 1:06:39
  who aren't male and female. Yeah, so that was a really good
• 1:06:43
  point you made at the beginning, is knowing who you are and what
• 1:06:46
  you want. Or don't even be looking to get
• 1:06:47
  married 'cause you're not really ready for the market.
• 1:06:51
  Now you have some really good advice on living on a being
• 1:06:54
  able, making your decisions based on the economic
• 1:06:59
  practicality of living on one income.
• 1:07:01
  Talk to me more about that. I thought that was really
• 1:07:03
  interesting. So in the ideal world, again,
• 1:07:07
  you're talking about this in advance of having children,
• 1:07:11
  really in advance of getting married.
• 1:07:13
  So that when you're with somebody and you're in a
• 1:07:15
  relationship that's looks like it's headed somewhere, you are
• 1:07:21
  already making plans for what you want that to look like.
• 1:07:25
  Should you get married? OK, If you know that somebody,
• 1:07:31
  if if you've stated and you're clear that you want to step out
• 1:07:34
  of the workforce and stay home for X amount of years, then
• 1:07:37
  obviously you need to start making financial decisions in
• 1:07:40
  advance of that at IE, do not, do not get used to two incomes.
• 1:07:45
  So you're both working right now, but you know that's not
• 1:07:49
  going to be the case. Don't get comfortable with two
• 1:07:52
  incomes and then all of a sudden drop one.
• 1:07:55
  Practice living unless now or more economically, even if you
• 1:08:01
  have the money coming in, put that money aside, save it as
• 1:08:05
  much as you can so that you can add that pile to his income down
• 1:08:10
  the road when you do get married and stay home.
• 1:08:11
  So there's that. You could actually plan for that
• 1:08:13
  in advance. Get out of debt.
• 1:08:16
  So those are the kind of the kind of the advance obvious
• 1:08:18
  things and then not buying the house based on two incomes.
• 1:08:20
  All of that, once you do get married and have kids, if you
• 1:08:25
  haven't, even if you haven't done those things, more often
• 1:08:30
  than not, that second income in those early years is actually
• 1:08:37
  not advantageous at all from a I'm just talking strictly from a
• 1:08:40
  financial standpoint because I think even if you made $100,000,
• 1:08:43
  it's not worth not being home. That's my bias.
• 1:08:46
  Well, and in a lot of states, $100,000 if it's a job that
• 1:08:49
  requires, if it's $100,000 and it's a job that requires you to
• 1:08:52
  be out of the home in an office 8 hours a day, even just a child
• 1:08:57
  care expenses against that money after taxes.
• 1:08:59
  That's true too. It's like you're being paid
• 1:09:01
  below minimum wage to be away from your kids for 8 hours a
• 1:09:03
  day. That's true.
• 1:09:04
  But of course most people don't make 6 figures.
• 1:09:06
  So if you're looking at the average, and I'm talking about
• 1:09:07
  two people making two, two people would have to make at
• 1:09:11
  least six figures each for it to potentially come out in the wash
• 1:09:16
  from a financial standpoint. But that's not most people's
• 1:09:19
  situation. Most people that second income
• 1:09:21
  is being eaten up by taxes and then the child care cost being
• 1:09:25
  the biggest and then all the costs that are incurred by going
• 1:09:28
  out to work. So when I spend time at home, a
• 1:09:30
  lot of time, let's say in a given week at home doing my
• 1:09:33
  entrepreneurial things from my house, I actually spend a lot,
• 1:09:36
  practically nothing, right? If I have a week where I'm not
• 1:09:39
  doing that and I'm out, I'm shopping, I'm getting food, more
• 1:09:43
  food, I'm spending more on gas. I'm, I don't know, somehow you.
• 1:09:46
  Just you have to clothing for the part and all the things I
• 1:09:50
  mean, So what you're saying. So I want to make sure folks
• 1:09:52
  listening to this is such an important point.
• 1:09:55
  You have a a situation, as do I and A lot of people today.
• 1:09:58
  Thankfully, this is increasingly the way the workforce is going
• 1:10:01
  with a lot of jobs where you have flexible work that you can
• 1:10:04
  largely do from home. Obviously you're in the studio.
• 1:10:06
  So once in a while you'll go do an interview.
• 1:10:07
  But, and I do the studio, but most of my time I'm in my home
• 1:10:11
  and that's a huge privilege. It's a great thing.
• 1:10:13
  And it makes it much more doable when you have kids.
• 1:10:16
  I mean, I know your kids are older, minor, minor, little, but
• 1:10:18
  you're talking about when you say, when you're, you're talking
• 1:10:22
  about those jobs that don't allow that flexibility back to
• 1:10:26
  that flexible advice you're giving and that don't allow you
• 1:10:30
  to do it from home. Meaning, how do you feel about
• 1:10:33
  the mother who's working part time from home and she loves her
• 1:10:37
  work and it's working with the. Kids.
• 1:10:38
  So I think there are caveats to that.
• 1:10:41
  I think it's the greatest situation that you could
• 1:10:42
  possibly have. I think in the ideal world,
• 1:10:44
  you're not doing much of anything in those early years,
• 1:10:48
  maybe 10 hours a week kind of a thing.
• 1:10:50
  And then you rant that up when the kids go to school into part
• 1:10:52
  time. I'm the full time is a disaster
• 1:10:56
  in my opinion, even when they're in school, because people think
• 1:10:58
  that all of a sudden you have this all the time and the all
• 1:11:00
  this time in the middle of the day and it just doesn't work out
• 1:11:02
  that way. But be that as it may, there are
• 1:11:06
  so many aspects of being able to work from home when you have
• 1:11:10
  like for example, when I was writing, that was when my kids
• 1:11:12
  were asleep or when they were in school, like for a long time,
• 1:11:16
  they said I wouldn't even know you worked mom, if I didn't know
• 1:11:19
  you worked. They never saw it.
• 1:11:21
  So there are ways to work around that.
• 1:11:24
  Some people work at night. I can't.
• 1:11:25
  I got to have my sleep, so I never worked at night, but some
• 1:11:27
  people work into the we Rs of the night and then but go back
• 1:11:34
  to the I want to finish the financial thing because I think
• 1:11:35
  that was your initial question. More often than not, that second
• 1:11:40
  income. Once people put the math and put
• 1:11:42
  the pen to the paper and they look at it and they subtract the
• 1:11:44
  childcare. This is assuming you don't have
• 1:11:45
  free childcare with family members, something that's a
• 1:11:48
  different ball game and the commuting costs and the gas and
• 1:11:51
  the eating out and the convenience foods and the maybe
• 1:11:54
  you're netting $10,000 maybe a year.
• 1:11:57
  And when you see it like that, going back to what you were
• 1:11:59
  saying about some women, and I get this a lot, trying to help
• 1:12:02
  their husband understand that it's important for them to be
• 1:12:05
  home and can she quit her job and stay home?
• 1:12:07
  And she's getting Flack from him about that, The put it on pen
• 1:12:12
  and paper. Men will respond to the math
• 1:12:14
  more easily than anything else, in my opinion.
• 1:12:17
  And when they see that and then compare that to the climate
• 1:12:20
  that's in the home and the fallout of trying to both work
• 1:12:26
  while raising babies and toddlers and the chaos that
• 1:12:29
  ensues from that, most men would be very grateful to have a
• 1:12:33
  calmer, more peaceful home and wife and $10,000 less a year or
• 1:12:40
  whatever it is. Like it's worth it to them.
• 1:12:42
  But because it's so countercultural, you have to
• 1:12:45
  really, gosh, have a long, long, drawn out conversation about it
• 1:12:51
  because sometimes people just haven't even heard it from this
• 1:12:53
  angle before. They just believe this is what
• 1:12:55
  you have to do and they've never actually put it to paper to see
• 1:13:00
  is this coming out in the wash? What if you're in a situation
• 1:13:03
  where you bought that house on two incomes and your your
• 1:13:07
  spouse's your husband's income is not enough to cover that.
• 1:13:10
  What would you tell that couple and she's sell it?
• 1:13:13
  Sell it. Move.
• 1:13:16
  Where? I don't know.
• 1:13:17
  Figure it out, get family around you.
• 1:13:19
  I mean you, it's going to take hard.
• 1:13:22
  It it, it's going to be hard. If you made a mistake, you can
• 1:13:25
  undo a lot of mistakes. It may be painful financially,
• 1:13:28
  especially an initial, an initial hit.
• 1:13:30
  Maybe you even move cities. What?
• 1:13:33
  If the husband loves the career that he's in and he's he really
• 1:13:37
  likes the job that he's in, but he doesn't provide enough to do
• 1:13:41
  a one income household in that area, 1 income family.
• 1:13:45
  Say that again. So he loves his career but just
• 1:13:47
  doesn't make enough to do 1 income.
• 1:13:50
  So many side gigs now that's. True.
• 1:13:54
  If you love your job and it doesn't make a lot like you're
• 1:13:57
  sacrificing providing more that your family needs physically
• 1:14:01
  because you just love the job, I get it.
• 1:14:06
  But then there's a trade off for that.
• 1:14:07
  And you're going to have to pick up some more, some more money
• 1:14:10
  somewhere in order to get that, that happy factor, I guess, that
• 1:14:15
  you have during the day with that job you left.
• 1:14:18
  You told a bunch of women during the pandemic to leave big cities
• 1:14:21
  and move to the Midwest. I did, yeah.
• 1:14:24
  That sounds like something I'd say.
• 1:14:27
  Do you still recommend that largely that we should avoid
• 1:14:30
  living in big cities? Yeah, Now this is it.
• 1:14:34
  It depends on what kind of life you want.
• 1:14:36
  I mean, I lived in the city. I lived in several cities
• 1:14:40
  throughout my 20s, and I loved it.
• 1:14:42
  And that was fine for that point in my life.
• 1:14:45
  But you couldn't pay me to like live that lifestyle when I was
• 1:14:51
  nesting, let's call it that. So if you want a simpler,
• 1:14:55
  calmer, peaceful, non chaotic, more financially feasible life
• 1:15:04
  for 5-10 years, yeah, get out of the city for sure.
• 1:15:08
  People do it all the time. I mean, I talk to people all the
• 1:15:10
  time who are doing who want to do it.
• 1:15:12
  It's not like I have to convince them to do it again.
• 1:15:15
  Sort of like the priorities change.
• 1:15:17
  All of a sudden the city doesn't look so, so appealing.
• 1:15:23
  And of course the reason I would have said the Midwest is because
• 1:15:27
  things are so much deeper there than on than on the coasts.
• 1:15:30
  And I lived up E for 10 years and that too was a big fight
• 1:15:35
  with my ex-husband because he was a New Yorker and he wanted
• 1:15:38
  that life and I didn't. And now he's there and I'm here
• 1:15:43
  or I'm in the Midwest. And you know, you, you go where
• 1:15:47
  you need to go to have the life that you want.
• 1:15:51
  And if it didn't, you know, if you made a mistake in that
• 1:15:54
  decision, a lot of decisions can be mistakes can be undone in
• 1:16:00
  time, Maybe not right then, but you know, if not now, eventually
• 1:16:04
  I'm not everything is. So I'm just not somebody who
• 1:16:07
  believes that you make a decision, you're stuck with it
• 1:16:08
  for the rest of your life or that there's two paths and you
• 1:16:14
  take this one, your life's going to be great and you take this
• 1:16:16
  one, you're screwed. Like I don't even, I don't even
• 1:16:17
  subscribe to that, but most things are fixable.
• 1:16:23
  Yeah, if you're, I believe that I, I completely agree that and I
• 1:16:26
  also believe that God works through our even our mistakes.
• 1:16:30
  Not to say we should go be making mistakes and not try to,
• 1:16:34
  you know, own up to them and avoid them in the future and
• 1:16:37
  learn our lesson, right. But that God has a way of using
• 1:16:40
  our even our mistakes when we own up to them and try to fix
• 1:16:44
  them and everything for long term for good.
• 1:16:47
  And that's his mercifulness. I mean, he's so merciful with
• 1:16:50
  all of us. You've mentioned a few times
• 1:16:53
  your first marriage, you just mentioned again your ex-husband.
• 1:16:56
  Any advice on or what, what would be you know you based on
• 1:17:02
  your experience, what was what went wrong there?
• 1:17:06
  I thought love was enough. Feelings.
• 1:17:09
  Yes, sorry, feelings. There was no question of love.
• 1:17:13
  That was just not even a thing. We'd been together a really long
• 1:17:17
  time too. Our values and priorities were
• 1:17:19
  completely out of whack. It's as simple as that.
• 1:17:22
  Completely out of whack. Did you know that going into
• 1:17:24
  the? Marriage.
• 1:17:24
  I did. I did, and so did he, I think.
• 1:17:28
  And we thought we could overcome them.
• 1:17:31
  And they came barreling forward very quickly within several
• 1:17:34
  years. That we should have listened
• 1:17:38
  before we did it, but we've been together a long time and well,
• 1:17:42
  you're there already. You know, you're like, you don't
• 1:17:44
  want to start over or you think there's a lot of people like
• 1:17:49
  that. And my heart really goes out to
• 1:17:51
  them when they, I think there's a lot of women, especially when
• 1:17:53
  they're like 10 years down the road and they're in that boat.
• 1:17:54
  I was 23 so I had some time on my hands.
• 1:17:57
  But there's a lot of women who will just stay with them because
• 1:18:00
  I don't want to be alone or they don't want to start over.
• 1:18:02
  And so rather rather have somebody as opposed to nobody.
• 1:18:05
  That wasn't really my story, but I feel for them because they
• 1:18:10
  think there's going to be nothing else out there, so might
• 1:18:12
  as well just take this, which of course just an accident waiting
• 1:18:15
  to happen because that's not how you get married or that's
• 1:18:18
  certainly that's not how you should go into a marriage.
• 1:18:21
  Did you have the same view of marriage?
• 1:18:24
  Of what marriage you? Meant no, no, no.
• 1:18:26
  Awesome question. I did write about that in one of
• 1:18:28
  my books, actually. No, he definitely would not have
• 1:18:34
  had a biblical view of marriage, let's put it that way.
• 1:18:40
  So in the, in the Catholic Church, we have this thing
• 1:18:42
  called annulments, which people say, well, that's Catholic
• 1:18:44
  divorce and it's not what it is. And sometimes people who get
• 1:18:48
  annulment, they always, usually are legally, they're always are
• 1:18:51
  legally divorced. But in an annulment, it's, it's
• 1:18:55
  the church decides it. And it's because there wasn't a
• 1:18:57
  marriage to begin with, even though it might have looked like
• 1:18:59
  one. So I got an annulment in order
• 1:19:01
  to raise my kids Catholic when I got married the second time and
• 1:19:03
  I went through that. And that's funny that you
• 1:19:05
  brought that up. It's so important.
• 1:19:07
  Because because at first I didn't, you know, I wasn't
• 1:19:09
  Catholic and I was doing it just newly for my kids sake so that
• 1:19:13
  we could, so I could remarry my husband in the Catholic Church.
• 1:19:15
  Because when we got married originally, it wasn't in a
• 1:19:16
  Catholic Church and I wanted to send my kids to Catholic school.
• 1:19:20
  So that's we went, I went through all that for them and I,
• 1:19:24
  I had AI had a certain view of annulments before I did it.
• 1:19:28
  And then I went through it and I had a change of heart and I
• 1:19:30
  watched because you have to have your ex go through it with you.
• 1:19:34
  Well, you don't have to, but that's the ideal way.
• 1:19:36
  And I asked him to and he actually said yes and started
• 1:19:39
  the process. And halfway through he just
• 1:19:42
  said, I'm not doing this is ridiculous.
• 1:19:44
  And I had to finish it on my own, which you can do.
• 1:19:48
  And I, I remember that was really interesting because I
• 1:19:51
  came away with a very much more a better understanding of what
• 1:19:56
  an element really meant than he was able to see because he was
• 1:20:01
  not raised with any religion and did not, I mean, religion was a
• 1:20:04
  was an issue. And I understand now what you
• 1:20:10
  just said in a way that I wouldn't have before I did it.
• 1:20:12
  I did think it was what just saying that you were never
• 1:20:15
  married by my mother taught me that actually just said just
• 1:20:18
  pretending that you weren't married by law.
• 1:20:19
  And that's actually not true. That's not what it was.
• 1:20:22
  And. I agree with it.
• 1:20:25
  I agree with the whole process of it.
• 1:20:27
  It's right we weren't. We shouldn't have gotten married
• 1:20:29
  to begin with. It wasn't really a marriage.
• 1:20:35
  I mean, it was legally, but that's the only way.
• 1:20:38
  It was my opinion. Can you share any more about
• 1:20:42
  that? We haven't actually gotten into
• 1:20:43
  annulments in the show yet. We've touched on it before, but
• 1:20:46
  if there's any other. I don't, I don't know.
• 1:20:48
  It's been so long that I mean, if you had asked me right when I
• 1:20:51
  had answered all the questions, I'd have a lot more to say.
• 1:20:53
  I. Don't.
• 1:20:53
  Maybe from the perspective of someone who's considering
• 1:20:56
  getting married, what were the things?
• 1:20:58
  Maybe the red flags you already mentioned share values because
• 1:21:02
  for the annulment process, my understanding is you make your
• 1:21:06
  relationship, you, you know, report on it basically to the
• 1:21:09
  church and they in their wisdom decide, oh, you, you didn't go
• 1:21:13
  into this with a full open hearted promise.
• 1:21:17
  You know, if one of the spouses went into it actually holding
• 1:21:19
  back thinking I might divorce this person and I'm not really
• 1:21:21
  fully committing to this person at the time of the marriage,
• 1:21:24
  that doesn't make a marriage because they weren't going into
• 1:21:26
  it willing to fully commit as an example.
• 1:21:29
  There's other factors involved too.
• 1:21:32
  Yep. So it was, it was not an
• 1:21:34
  agreement. And I tell people that now you
• 1:21:36
  have to have the same view of marriage to make it work 'cause
• 1:21:38
  sometimes you're just going to stay married because you said
• 1:21:40
  you would and because you're not going to get divorced and not
• 1:21:43
  because of any other reason. And that's OK, That's OK.
• 1:21:48
  So you have to have that same attitude for sure.
• 1:21:53
  The values and the priorities are everything.
• 1:21:55
  If you're not going to the same place and you don't put the same
• 1:21:57
  things first, then it's not going to work 'cause how do you
• 1:21:59
  ever align priorities if you're not aligned when you say, I mean
• 1:22:03
  you, they might, I guess it could change.
• 1:22:05
  Your priorities do sometimes change and you can hope that
• 1:22:08
  they'll align later, but you better align them when you're
• 1:22:10
  getting married. And then a geography was a huge
• 1:22:14
  thing for us. I was raised in the Midwest.
• 1:22:16
  He was, he was a New Yorker and he thought probably still
• 1:22:19
  thinks, I imagine there's no life outside of New York like
• 1:22:22
  New Yorkers are. There's New York and then
• 1:22:24
  there's the rest of the world. And we used to fight about that
• 1:22:27
  a lot. So I know that geography is a
• 1:22:29
  big deal today with people because they are all over the
• 1:22:31
  place and they're trying to figure out where they're going
• 1:22:33
  to live in a way that wasn't so big in the 80s.
• 1:22:37
  Well, I was 19. It was 91 when I got married the
• 1:22:40
  first time. So that that wasn't a kind of an
• 1:22:42
  unusual situation. And but the geography goes back
• 1:22:45
  to the values because I wanted a family, a simple family life,
• 1:22:51
  and he wanted something different.
• 1:22:54
  So how do you marry those? I mean, how can those things
• 1:22:57
  possibly come together? He did end up having two kids
• 1:23:00
  and he married A. But when you were with him, did
• 1:23:03
  he want, I mean, yes, yes he did.
• 1:23:05
  That was part of the plan longer term.
• 1:23:06
  Yes, definitely, but always later, always later, always
• 1:23:10
  when, always later and always after he had attained a certain
• 1:23:15
  level of wealth and just just. That's what I mean by priority.
• 1:23:18
  It's just a completely different mindset about how to live and
• 1:23:24
  about what matters. What are some key questions you
• 1:23:27
  think that you mentioned Just kind of closing the loop on
• 1:23:30
  dating and selecting for a spouse.
• 1:23:33
  There are a lot of great advice you had, but some of the things
• 1:23:36
  you're looking for, like maybe the questions that you should be
• 1:23:39
  asking. In your head, or to them?
• 1:23:42
  To them, to them. To make sure you're on the same
• 1:23:44
  page. Well, there's some really
• 1:23:46
  obvious ones that I'm surprised people don't don't talk about.
• 1:23:50
  And that is, and that's the work family thing is how are we going
• 1:23:53
  to arrange who's going to work and who's going to stay home and
• 1:23:55
  how much and how often and where and what's that going to look
• 1:23:57
  like? And what are you talking about
• 1:23:59
  when you say you want to work part time?
• 1:24:00
  What's it you like really get into the minutiae of sorry,
• 1:24:04
  well, that made noise. Really get into the minutiae of
• 1:24:08
  what you want your life to look like.
• 1:24:10
  Like think 5-10 years down the road.
• 1:24:12
  What do you, what do you want your daily life to look like?
• 1:24:15
  Are you both getting up at the same time every day and running
• 1:24:18
  out the door and not eating at home and paying other people to
• 1:24:21
  raise your kids and coming home at the end of the day and then
• 1:24:24
  running around the weekends to do all the errands?
• 1:24:26
  Or like that's one lifestyle, right?
• 1:24:29
  And then there's a completely different kind of lifestyle
• 1:24:31
  where one person's perhaps leaving or perhaps not these
• 1:24:34
  days since there's so much working from home, but where
• 1:24:38
  you're creating a home and you're cooking at home and
• 1:24:41
  you're raising your children yourself.
• 1:24:46
  So that it's just an incredibly slower existence, which I think
• 1:24:51
  is another big thing that we should probably mention.
• 1:24:53
  I think that's why a lot of women struggle with this, by the
• 1:24:55
  way, is because the times in which we live are so fast and so
• 1:24:59
  immediate. Everything is right now, right
• 1:25:00
  now, right now. And the whole process of raising
• 1:25:04
  littles is so opposite of that. They, they could not, they're
• 1:25:10
  there. They are the living embodiment
• 1:25:12
  to be with them in those years. I mean, everything is
• 1:25:16
  excruciatingly slow because that's who they are.
• 1:25:20
  So you have to stop and live their life with them.
• 1:25:24
  And we're trying to fit them into our fast-paced life and
• 1:25:26
  it's not working. I think people really struggle
• 1:25:29
  with how do you even move slowly, live slowly, live
• 1:25:33
  simply, and then you have the extreme going to the living off
• 1:25:38
  the land trad wife movement, which is whatever.
• 1:25:41
  That's great, but not most people aren't going to want to
• 1:25:44
  go that far. So like, is there a middle
• 1:25:45
  ground? What does that look like and how
• 1:25:48
  do you do that? And how do you get off your
• 1:25:49
  phone and stop doing this when you have littles?
• 1:25:51
  I mean, I can't even imagine having had social media or a
• 1:25:54
  phone available to me when my kids were little.
• 1:25:56
  That would be awful. Being torn between that and your
• 1:26:01
  kids all the time. Like my phone, my kid, my phone,
• 1:26:04
  make him like we didn't have that.
• 1:26:05
  So it's a lot harder today. It's just harder for your
• 1:26:09
  generation any way you look at it.
• 1:26:11
  I think this whole parenting thing, motherhood thing, don't
• 1:26:14
  you? I, I think that is what I
• 1:26:17
  understand. I mean I.
• 1:26:18
  I can't. I didn't live my mother's life,
• 1:26:21
  you know, I can ask her questions about it and I was it
• 1:26:23
  her child, right? Thankfully, I love my mom, But
• 1:26:26
  yeah, it is I from all accounts, there are significant
• 1:26:31
  differences in the challenges to raise kids and to date and to
• 1:26:34
  marry today. But when I look at history, you
• 1:26:38
  know, I studied history in college because I love history.
• 1:26:40
  Although I learned most of the things I know about history, not
• 1:26:43
  from my time at college, by the way.
• 1:26:45
  But when you look at history, every, every generation has its
• 1:26:48
  different struggles and challenges.
• 1:26:50
  And we always look back in the time and say, well, they didn't
• 1:26:52
  have that. And it's harder for me today,
• 1:26:55
  but some things are easier today.
• 1:26:57
  So it, I think there's always going to be trade-offs with
• 1:26:59
  every era and it, you know, God allows us to be born at this
• 1:27:02
  time in history for us to rise to the occasion, you know, rise
• 1:27:06
  to the challenges of the moment. And anyway, that's why I love
• 1:27:09
  the work that you're doing and the a lot of the advice that
• 1:27:11
  you're giving, because I think it's, it's helping people
• 1:27:13
  practically make sense of the time that we're in.
• 1:27:15
  I hope so because that to navigate where we're at.
• 1:27:18
  Thank you. I hope so, because that's if
• 1:27:20
  this really isn't about. Politics, it's just, it's about
• 1:27:24
  how to live a life that works for you that's going to make you
• 1:27:28
  happy. And who cares what everybody
• 1:27:30
  else is doing, you know, or what you think you're supposed to do
• 1:27:34
  or how you're told you're supposed to do it.
• 1:27:36
  Listen to your heart, listen to what you want, and don't be
• 1:27:39
  afraid to say what you want, even if it sounds
• 1:27:42
  countercultural. There's that word again,
• 1:27:44
  countercultural or something that your friends aren't saying
• 1:27:46
  or doing. Be true to what you want.
• 1:27:50
  And that, that again, that goes back to what you were saying
• 1:27:52
  about knowing who you are and what you want before you're even
• 1:27:55
  in the dating pool, right? Ideally, any last advice for
• 1:27:59
  avoiding? You're kind of touching on it,
• 1:28:01
  right? Now, but avoiding the temptation
• 1:28:03
  to compare and I think I mean we're talking about social
• 1:28:06
  media. Social media is like the space
• 1:28:09
  if you're sucked into it and you see even the trad wife living
• 1:28:13
  this idyllic life over here. And then you see this other
• 1:28:15
  woman over here call seemingly to accomplish so much.
• 1:28:18
  And you just see this whole, this whole world of all these
• 1:28:21
  different people and they're all shining in these different
• 1:28:24
  lanes. And I can see why so many women
• 1:28:26
  and men today are struggling with especially women, though,
• 1:28:29
  what is my lane? And how do I, I want this thing
• 1:28:33
  that I like and that thing that I like?
• 1:28:34
  That's what I meant. That's what I was referring to
• 1:28:36
  when I was saying I think it's so much harder.
• 1:28:37
  Like that, that and that in and of itself is such a burden to
• 1:28:44
  bear because we as humans, even pre social media, are prone to
• 1:28:48
  compare to our neighbor. Even if there isn't social
• 1:28:50
  media. Like you're going to talk about
• 1:28:52
  your neighbors or your friends and that's what people do.
• 1:28:55
  But to be bombarded with these lifestyles that look so amazing
• 1:29:00
  and are all curated and it's all crap.
• 1:29:01
  It's not real. That's the thing that's that
• 1:29:04
  gets me the most is you're looking at something that has
• 1:29:05
  just been curated for your entertainment and somewhere in
• 1:29:10
  your brain you think that's actually real and you want it or
• 1:29:13
  you should have it and you're comparing it to what you're
• 1:29:16
  doing and you want to and, and then it makes you feel less
• 1:29:19
  about your life. Honestly, the only true way to
• 1:29:24
  really avoid going down that path is to turn it off.
• 1:29:29
  It's really the only answer. And so people will say, well,
• 1:29:33
  how is that possible? We can't live in a world where
• 1:29:34
  you turn off. Well, a yes, you can.
• 1:29:36
  You can turn it off and you can turn it off periodically at
• 1:29:39
  minimum, yeah. If if it's too much to just turn
• 1:29:42
  off completely then you have super.
• 1:29:44
  Strict rules about when you look at it and you put on, put it on
• 1:29:47
  a timer. I think you can actually do this
• 1:29:49
  on your phone now. My daughter told me you get 30
• 1:29:50
  minutes a day and then you go and you zone out and you just
• 1:29:54
  have whatever. You zone out for those 30
• 1:29:56
  minutes and there's stuff, there is stuff on social media that's
• 1:29:59
  that's worthwhile. I don't mean it's all, you know,
• 1:30:01
  bad. But the most important thing is
• 1:30:04
  if you're going to spend those 30 minutes looking at it, really
• 1:30:07
  look at it as entertainment or maybe learning about something
• 1:30:09
  you didn't know and keep your life over here in a really
• 1:30:13
  special box that you know, this has nothing to do with that.
• 1:30:18
  Never put them next to each other because all grass looks
• 1:30:23
  greener. It all it all will.
• 1:30:26
  There is just as much dirt over there.
• 1:30:28
  As there is in your. Yard, you just can't see it, and
• 1:30:31
  you especially can't see it on social media.
• 1:30:33
  You have to know that going in before you give yourself your 30
• 1:30:36
  minutes. Really know that.
• 1:30:38
  And if you don't know that, don't turn it on until you do.
• 1:30:41
  You really got to get that in your brain to be able to
• 1:30:44
  separate and not let it affect you.
• 1:30:46
  That's good. That's really good.
• 1:30:49
  Suzanne. Thanks so much.
• 1:30:50
  For joining the podcast. Thanks for having me, Lila.
• 1:30:52
  Where can people find your work? My website, Just Suzanne.
• 1:30:55
  Banker, Suzanne. VEN ker.com and that'll lead you
• 1:31:00
  lots of other places. And your latest book out is what
• 1:31:02
  again, How to Build a Better Life a new.
• 1:31:04
  Road map for women who want to. Prioritize love and family.
• 1:31:08
  Beautiful. Thank you so much, Suzanne.
• 1:31:10
  Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for.
• 1:31:12
  Listening to this episode of the Lila Rose podcast, guys, it
• 1:31:14
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