Latest / The Virtual Couch / Every, and I Mean EVERY Conversation Can Help You Grow - Holding the “Assertive Frame”

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Every, and I Mean EVERY Conversation Can Help You Grow - Holding the “Assertive Frame” · The Virtual Couch

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Okay, so I want you to imagine that you are running a race and we're talking about a long
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one. Maybe let's say an ultra marathon. So I have run marathons, but over time, sometimes the passion takes you to greater distances.
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So the ultra marathon is anything greater than the 26.2 mile distance.
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You start with a nice 50K, maybe 32 miles, bump up to a 50 miler, then a hundred K, but.
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Then eventually the granddaddy, the hundred miler.
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And my first hundred miler was the Rio Del Lago hundred miler, which was pretty much
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in my own backyard. And among the many memories that I remember and I treasure from that first,
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race of 100 miles, one stands out, but it has absolutely nothing to do with its connection
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to running. But it was actually for the lesson that it taught me about perception. Because
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in our pre-race goodie bags, we were all gifted these very sleek orange tinted running sunglasses.
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And these are the kind of sunglasses that once you wore them, they just became a part
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of you. They kind of fit like a glove and their light orange tint made them very, very
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just comfortable to the eyes. And soon you don't even realize that you have them on.
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And I love them so much that as my running progressed, I started organizing a fundraising
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run around the local high school track and it was to raise money for all the schools.
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And I contacted the manufacturer and they gave me a lot of these glasses. I mean a lot
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of them. And that first year that I did the 24 hour run, I gave away almost all of them,
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but I also kept about a dozen pair for myself. And I didn't even realize that that was, I
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don't know, it was over, over a 10 years ago. And so now only if you pair these, and so.
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So now, only one pair.
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And so now only a couple of pair of these orange tinted sunglasses remain.
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But here's the thing, I still like to wear them. And when I wear them on long runs, they will just subtly change
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the entire world around me because basically they're so light again that I forget that they are on.
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And so they are tinting everything, the sky, the outfits people wear,
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the colors of passing cars.
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Everything is shaded by that slight orange hue.
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And I remember on one run in particular, I stopped for a drink and I remember picking up a Gatorade and it was my favorite kind.
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It was lemon lime. And I remember wondering, why does this look kind of off? Is it really the orange Gatorade? It says lemon lime. Am I getting the
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wrong kind? But I'm going with the label. It says lemon lime. But then as I
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approached, but then as I approached the cashier, he commented, Hey, nice glasses. And that's when I didn't even realize that I was again, seeing
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everything through this orange tilt through this orange tinted filter. And
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so I feel like that's a powerful metaphor for life that we all have our own orange tinted glasses, our personal biases, and they just subtly color our perspectives.
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And these biases can then be so ingrained that we don't even realize that they affect
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our judgments and our perceptions. So like my literal glasses, our metaphorical ones
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can change how we see the world, and that can lead us to make assumptions and judgments
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and decisions that are based on our own skewed views.
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So this is kind of a gentle reminder to occasionally be aware of and remove our glasses. To see
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world in more of its true colors because sometimes what we think we see really isn't the full
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picture or it might not even be the correct picture.
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So today we're going to talk about curiosity, we're going to talk about communication, and
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I'm going to go big on what to do and how to do it when somebody that you're trying
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to communicate with, whether it's a kid, a spouse, your bishop or pastor, or a family
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member, well, what you do when they aren't very curious about your perspective or your
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point of view? And as a matter of fact, what if they're actually really good at telling
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you what you think and how you feel? So we're going to talk about that and so much more
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coming up on today's episode of The Virtual Couch.
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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 390 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified Mindful Habit Coach,
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a writer, speaker, husband, father of four,
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and creator of The Path Back, which is an online pornography recovery program
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that is doing amazing things and helping people just become the people that they've always wanted to be
4:29
and move away from turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
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So what I would highly recommend you do is go sign up for my newsletter and one actually dropped this week.
4:38
Thank you to the amazing social media agency people at the YAYA Agency. So if you are actually interested in bumping up the social media
4:44
game as well, I could not recommend them more. As a matter of fact, Josh Rolfe, who is the
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founder of the YAYA Agency, I believe, he recently published a book that is really funny
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and I love the title. It is called Now I Can Say I'm an Author. So I'm going to get him
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on here and talk about that. And I really do recommend the book. As a matter of fact,
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I'll put a link to it in the link tree and my show notes, as well as information on the
5:06
the path back and how to sign up for my newsletter.
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And also the latest offering from the Virtual Couch Network,
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The Mind, The Mirror, and Me.
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And that is a podcast that is co-hosted with, I'm co-hosting with my daughter McKinley.
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And the debut episode was last week and episode two is in the can and I can't wait for you to hear that more.
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And my daughter Sydney was in the studio recently and we were recording.
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So Murder on the Couch is coming out again soon.
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So today is an episode that has been long in the making because I really wanna lay out some groundwork
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through some stories and some examples and concepts,
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but with a very strong purpose that I believe very strongly in,
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that we have a serious communication problem, and I am talking the entire world.
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So let me set the stage, whether it's a couple or somebody telling me about their interactions
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with another person, here's what I think you will often find.
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Let me give you an example where this is what I see in my office.
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And this is one where the couple is actually doing pretty well,
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and they're just coming in to be better.
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Maybe they heard on a podcast about the four pillars and maybe that they have worried
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that they don't know what they don't know and they want to communicate better,
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which again, I am so grateful for.
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But in this scenario, the husband says, you know, I think we both struggle to make our points
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and I really think that my wife just starts to feel overwhelmed.
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And when she does, you know, she just kind of shuts down.
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And at that point, I know there really isn't anything that I can do to pull her out of her funk.
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And since we are talking on a mental health related podcast,
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and I am telling you that there's a communication error or a problem in the entire world,
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then I'm guessing that maybe I set that one up a little too easily and you could possibly find
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the problems in that exchange.
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But even if they're small, but let me kind of break it down.
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So what I see is that as the husband says that he thinks that they both struggle to make our points, she kind of looks up and at this point,
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she may be looking a little bit over to the left and her face is sort of in
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agreeance. But then when he said that she starts to feel overwhelmed,
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her face changes to be a little bit more quizzical.
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And then he says that when she shuts down and then I basically watch her shut
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down. And at this point, I'm pretty confident that he is saying that there's nothing that he can do to get her out of her funk.
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Well, he's made it about him. Nothing he can do and does she even think that she's in a funk?
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So here's the problem if you have never really been taught the very best tools for communication
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Then all of a sudden as the therapist in the room I kind of feel like the adult in the Charlie Brown cartoons
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And so, you know where I'm going with this where I say things and they hear wah-wah-wah-wah
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So then I jump in and I say, all right, so let me suggest that you try that again,
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husband, and only speak to your experience, not we both struggle.
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And what would interjecting curiosity even sound like to which then they both
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become uncomfortable. It's visible. You can see it from my chair.
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And then what does she do? Well, she jumps to the rescue because that's her job,
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her role. No, he's right. I'm sure I do that. And then I say, okay, okay.
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As crazy as this may sound, That's actually not the point because maybe sometimes, sometimes he is right, but sometimes
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he isn't. And here's where the correct framework is imperative.
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And in my professional opinion, it needs to be adopted and it needs to be practiced and
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used every time. And trust me, it won't happen every time because you're human.
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But if he were to say, okay, I feel pretty frustrated because I think I struggle to make
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my point often and I don't know, let's call the wife Stacy in this scenario.
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So then if Stacy, then again, if this is coming from the husband and he's asking, Stacy, do
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Do you ever feel that way, or what's that like for you?
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To when she can then jump into my four pillar framework with the acronym we'll go with BASE. I introduced that a few episodes ago, but B, give him the benefit of the doubt. We're assuming good intentions or there's a reason why he's asking what he's asking.
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Nobody wakes up and says, Oh, I can't wait to hurt my spouse today. And then accepting the A in BASE, his perspective, which means that she can't tell him that he's wrong or that she disagrees at this point, even if she thinks he's wrong or she disagrees.
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And then on to S, seek first to understand, or switch from comments first and then questions. Don't jump to solutions or deflections.
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She would then say, well, tell me more about that, or what does that look like to you, or take me on your train of thought.
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And then the E in base, embrace the conversation. Even if there's tension, that's where the growth really occurs.
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Stay engaged. Don't retreat into victimhood or go into your bunker.
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He will feel heard, she has more information, and now she shares her thoughts,
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and he is now the listener to her speaker using that same base formula.
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So, why this episode? I wanna be very open and vulnerable with you.
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I wanna model all the things that I want you to be in your life.
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So, I've had a couple of interactions with people in positions of leadership or authority recently
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that have been very devoid of the curiosity.
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And this is in addition to continually seeing a lot of clients each week, a lot of couples.
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Week after week, I love that part of my job, but just wanting to try and fast track things
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as best as I can, and I know that's a me issue.
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I need to meet people where they're at, and it's gonna take as long as it's gonna take,
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and I really do believe those things.
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But there are really good tools that can be used that can change your entire relationship. They really can.
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But sometimes, like I talked about in today's in the intro today, you don't even realize
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that you have your orange tinted sunglasses on and it's hard to see what the other person's experience is.
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We're telling them, hey, this is what it looks like to me or this is what you're doing.
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So again, I've had a couple of these interactions with people in these positions of leadership
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or authority, and they've been devoid of curiosity.
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The difficult thing is that if then I were to say, Hey, how about you be curious? Because admittedly, a long time ago, I tried that and it didn't work so
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well, but now all of a sudden they're defensive and they want to say, well,
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how about you take a hike? And not really, not maybe in those nicer words either, but then all of a sudden where that person may be defending their
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fragile ego. So let me pull out my healthy ego and let me actually spend a minute or two discussing what that concept looks like as well, because this
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is another one that I think when understood,
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and I will have people tell me, hey, when you talk about your healthy ego,
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that sounds very egotistical.
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But then if I say, well, tell me what that healthy ego looks like or what it means to you,
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what have you heard or understood?
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I don't, I kind of get a blank look. This goes back to that, what I call my pre-pillar,
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which is we make an observation and a judgment in the same frame,
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and then we want that person to defend my view of them.
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Hey, when you say healthy ego, here's what I think it looks like.
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Now, defend what I think that it means, that even though that's not what you think it means,
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if you know what I mean.
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So the difficult thing again, I can't just say, hey, how about you be curious
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because then they're defensive.
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And so if I'm gonna step into my healthy ego that remember in a nutshell,
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your healthy ego is something that you have gained from real life experience,
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from putting in the work and the time, and it's something within you.
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And what is so good about doing your own mental health work and the self confronting and learning to sit with discomfort
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and all the things and not always seeking validation and getting rid of the control in your life
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and going for love and all of those wonderful,
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things is that.
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When you are in then your healthy ego, based off of real life experience,
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then you realize that it's okay to say things like, oh, I'm not really sure.
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Where maybe before, if you're being honest with yourself, you felt like you maybe needed to have an opinion
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on most everything, or if you didn't know something, you had to act like, that was bad, I don't know,
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I'm just kind of dumb.
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Wanting somebody to come rescue you and say, no, you're not, and then if they don't,
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then you think, man, they really do think I'm dumb.
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So it's okay to say things like, I don't know, Or, yeah, I did do that,
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taking ownership and accountability of things.
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But then what is so cool about understanding what that concept is and feeling liberated
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by being able to really say, oh, I do know that, and I don't know that, and I didn't remember to do this,
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and I did do that, if you're following me.
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Then the more that you do that consistently, you also find yourself naturally feeling more confident
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with the things that you do know.
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And once you start learning that it's okay to then admit fault and admit that there are things
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you don't know or understand,
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and the things that maybe you didn't do, and you start taking ownership and accountability
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for your actions, that starts to build confidence again, not only in you, but it establishes consistency
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and safety in your relationships.
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So in my healthy ego, I've realized that I haven't had a lot of conversations over the last,
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I would say a couple of years maybe,
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where I'm being told what I'm thinking or told what I'm doing or what I'm feeling
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or what I need to understand about my clients, especially about the people that I'm working with
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or again, about myself.
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Because there are multiple levels that then need to be addressed
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to try to even have a productive conversation.
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And I know that in my past, maybe my more emotionally immature days,
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then I would take a tremendous amount of time trying to break down maybe point by point
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and defend what somebody is saying that they think that I am doing,
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Where now, I don't believe that that is someone that is coming to the table with a vibe of curiosity
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and that we're gonna have a very connected conversation.
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So we're gonna talk about what you do with that today.
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So, then my heart goes out for people that are just doing everyday life with the wrong
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tools and continually being told what they don't understand or what they aren't getting
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or being or being told what they're thinking or feeling or what that means, the meaning
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of what they're doing or what they're saying.
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So let's just say then that I've been meeting with a couple for a long time and they've
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been meeting with their pastor, their bishop, their priest, their ecclesiastical leader,
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for some help in other areas of their life.
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They provided that pastor and me with a release so we can compare notes,
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because the hope is that we can all get on the same page.
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So then that leader talks with the couple, and we'll say a couple of times,
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maybe 15 to 30 minutes each.
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But knowing that I've spent, and here we go, healthy ego, literally hundreds of hours with the couple,
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I like the couple, I know that they're both doing their best,
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they're making progress, and then he proceeds to just tell them what they're doing wrong,
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and let them know what they need to do differently in their lives without asking them questions
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we're spending the time to get to know them.
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And as I understand, he has a lot on his plate and he has a busy job,
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but that's where I go back to this concept of healthy ego and it's okay for somebody to say,
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you know, I'm not really sure, I don't know.
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Because I do get a chance to work with a lot of ecclesiastical leaders,
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and there are some amazing ones that say, hey, I can offer some advice,
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but let me first understand what you're going through.
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But I'm gonna be honest, there are a lot of things that I don't know or understand,
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so I would recommend a professional.
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But let me tell you what my experience has been with that, but then I wanna hear your experience,
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and that is an amazing experience from an ecclesiastical leader.
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But when somebody is saying, hey, let me tell you, then in essence, they're saying,
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let me fuse these orange tinted glasses to my face and tell you what my view looks like, and there you go.
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But when somebody says, let me tell you about, or tell me about your experience,
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they're saying, hey, let me take off these orange tinted glasses,
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because I really wanna try to understand what you're going through, and I am here for you, and how can I help?",
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And I may be tempted to put them back on because I really only know certain things
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through my own orange tinted lenses.
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So then when that couple tries to communicate their feelings, their thoughts, or their emotions,
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and there isn't any curiosity from this pastor, then I believe strongly that their replies
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are gonna be yeah, butted.
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That if they're saying, but this is how we think, or this is how we feel, then I worry
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that the pastor's gonna say, well, yeah,
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but I go back to my initial point that I've already told you what you need to do,
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and if you haven't done those things yet, then come back to me after you've done the things
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that I want you to do.
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Because the reality is, maybe they aren't, but that's not the point, that they don't feel heard.
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They don't feel heard, they don't feel understood.
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So then when we try to share our experiences and there's no curiosity on the other end,
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then these things are gonna be yeah-butted and refuted.
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And not only that, but if the leader isn't coming to the table with curiosity,
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or if you aren't coming to the table with curiosity your relationship, or if you are now noticing that your spouse or your
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partner isn't very curious about what you're trying to express.
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And I'll give some examples of that here in a little bit.
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But again, I worry that in this exchange where this couple then is trying to advocate for
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themselves, which is something I highly and strongly encourage, but in that sharing and
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in this scenario, then their pastor actually further believes that he is right because
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they aren't simply agreeing or taking his advice. Because if we go back to so many of the concepts
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of the things that we're doing to avoid discomfort or get rid of discomfort, so that pastor would
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need to sit with their thoughts and feelings and emotions. And I would imagine that would
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make him uncomfortable. And maybe the way he gets rid of that discomfort. And again,
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I'm just taking a guess here is to tell them what to do, because if that's what it feels
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like to be him, and that's what he has been doing throughout his career, his life, maybe
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in his family. And if he is successful in business or life or, and he feels like in
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his family, then he is going to say, this is what works. Then maybe that's his default
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setting. That's where his orange, that's what his orange colored sunglasses look like. So,
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So how often in your relationships are you the one that's doing that?
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That if it's uncomfortable to hear about someone else's experience, and this is where I can
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say there's definitely a spectrum here where it can be uncomfortable because it's either
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uncomfortable because the person is emotionally immature.
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And so if you're sharing your experience and it makes them uncomfortable and then they
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internalize or think that they're doing something wrong, now they maybe have to defend themselves
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and put down your idea.
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Or even if somebody that means well and you're expressing pain or fear or hurt or anger or
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jealousy or any of those things and it makes that other person uncomfortable.
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Then even the kind person may want to get rid of that discomfort for you and make that because it will make them feel better because they think it will make you feel better.
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And that's again where we hear the greatest hits that we do to our kids often like, hey, don't worry about it, buddy.
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Or it's not a big deal or no, I don't really think that or don't worry about it.
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You shouldn't think of it that way. But that doesn't lead somebody to connection or to feel heard or to feel understood.
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So what was really interesting to me is that I when I found myself on the receiving end of being told what I didn't know or what I'm doing and what I'm thinking and what the couple didn't know or what they weren't doing is told by this this leader and I promise you I am four pillaring life like nobody's business I know he means well and he truly does but I realized that to defend my own thoughts and feelings or even to try to advocate for my couple again when there's no curiosity that it feels like an exercise almost in futility and I don't know if you've experienced that,
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that in your relationships where you feel like, no, I just am trying to clear things up. I'm trying to speak for myself, but then that other person is not interested in your opinion, even about your own experience.
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And so then it just serves to further frustrate me or the couple in the scenario, and then it leaves the leader even feeling more resolute that this couple or that I don't understand what he's saying.
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We do, but again, we all want to be heard and understood and we want curiosity.
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We want to work together to process things.
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Because here's where I would cue the motivational music in the background.
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And if I was speaking on stage, I would want a wind machine to blow.
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I guess my shirt since I'm bald, but I want you to know that you are worthy of those kinds of
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connections or these connected conversations.
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So if you're not experiencing those connections, these four-pillared connections out of curiosity
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in your relationships, then I want to help you understand that it doesn't mean that something
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is necessarily or that something's wrong with you. And there's actually a way to look at that
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when you are not feeling connected with someone.
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And a way to self-confront and grow, because ultimately you are in charge of your own human
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experience. So we're going to talk about that in some detail with some steps on how to do it.
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So let me take you back a couple of weeks, an episode on the virtual couch with my daughter
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Mackie. The episode was called Embracing Change, Discomfort, and Connection in Parenting with
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Mackie Overbay. So in that episode, we talked about when an older child or an adult child,
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but it could be a younger child, it could be a spouse, again, a pastor, a bishop, a co-worker,
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you name it. But when they aren't coming in with curiosity, or when they aren't
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already, if they're already in a state of distress or panic when their fight or
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flight mechanism is in full swing, when they're experiencing maybe an amygdala
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hijack, and it seems like they're not really able to stay calm or be able to
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to stay present or focused, then it can be incredibly difficult to know what to
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do when you're on that receiving end. The person on the receiving end being told
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what they are doing wrong, or what they aren't doing, or what they need to do
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differently, or if that person is in a pretty emotionally immature state, or.
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Even if they're overall highly emotionally immature, right up to exhibiting strong narcissistic traits and tendencies, then they are not
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looking to make space or to understand or to be curious. And this is where we
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go back to it does feel uncomfortable. And if you are not being intentional to
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take those orange tinted glasses off, it can feel really uncomfortable to hear
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about somebody else's experience, especially somebody you care about or or somebody that you think is telling you
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that you did something wrong.
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And so in those situations, it causes anxiety, it causes discomfort.
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And what do we do to get rid of that discomfort?
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Do we just agree and we acquiesce and we play small? Or do we get angry?
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Do we go for the control over love? Do we shut down?
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Or do we withdraw? Or do we just go into people please mode?
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But I promise you, there is a way to not only know how to react,
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but also to learn how to turn every situation,
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either into a connected conversation or a way to self-confront and grow and make these things good.
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That in essence, truly, all these things are gonna be for your good.
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So in that episode with my daughter, Mackey, I introduced the concept that I am currently referring to
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as holding the assertive frame.
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And it comes from the work with, or the work around polarity,
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masculine and feminine energy.
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And the reason that I'm being very intentional in calling it assertive for masculine,
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and then I'm calling it nurturing for feminine is because there are a lot of people that I interact with,
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dare I say, I've actually done some research on this,
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that, and this isn't even necessarily, this isn't a judgment statement,
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but for some saying that...
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And again, not someone saying I feel so offended by this talking about masculine and feminine with these different traits
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How dare you call me a male and my unhealthy feminine energy, although in reality if you really understand those concepts
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It's perfectly fine that we all have these masculine and feminine traits when it talks about more about the traits the energies the you know,
23:11
The presence and the radiance but they're just people that their relational frame when they hear masculine or feminine
23:16
it makes it really hard not to just actually not take off those orange tinted glasses at times and that's okay.
23:23
So in talking about this and as assertive and nurturing again where it's more about these concepts of masculine and feminine energy,
23:30
that it's not about male-female but it's more about presence and radiance.
23:34
And some cool examples that my friend Preston Pugmire and I came up with when we were creating this part of the Magnetic Marriage course,
23:41
We talk about it's the river bank is the masculine or the presence or in this concept, it would be the healthy assertive energy and then that is containing the flowing river.
23:52
So, that would be the radiance or the healthy nurturing energy. It's about the picture frame providing a border for the beautiful art. It's about safety. It's about the lap bar on a roller coaster.
24:04
So when you sit down on a rollercoaster and they put the lap bar down, what's the first
24:07
thing that you do? You give it a tug, you pull up on it to make sure you are safe.
24:11
And then if you're like me, well, I actually probably am missing some jokes here.
24:15
You either think it's a little bit too tight or it's not tight enough and then you wonder
24:19
if people have fallen out, but at that point you're ready to go, but you do feel safe.
24:23
So then once you know that lap bar is in place, then you lose your freaking mind and you yell
24:29
and you scream and you wave your hands.
24:30
You pretend to be asleep and you go by that place that snaps the picture,
24:33
and then before you crest a big hill or you go over a big loop-de-loo,
24:37
you inevitably push up again with your legs and you push up to test the lap bar. Am I safe?
24:41
Maybe even subconsciously. And if you know you're safe, then you let yourself go.
24:46
You let loose and again, you express all of your emotions and you have an amazing time.
24:50
And you experience all the thrills and the emotions, but you feel also safe.
24:55
So, it truly is about safety. It's about energy. So, which yes, years ago, I put all of this stuff in the woo-woo bucket. All the masculine and feminine energy in the, all of those sort of things in the psychological woo-woo bucket for me.
25:09
But I've since brought it out and it's been a huge part of my practice and the marriage course. But in other cultures, it's called by other names. Yin and yang in Indian culture, it's called Shiva and Shakti.
25:18
And so I'm simply just taking these concepts and then calling them assertive and nurturing.
25:23
And I'll do an episode in the future that goes into all the healthy and unhealthy traits
25:25
associated with assertive and nurturing.
25:28
But it really does set the stage for the remainder of today's episode.
25:31
So what are you truly to do when somebody isn't curious?
25:35
How can you turn those opportunities from what's wrong with me story to tell that we tell ourselves,
25:41
because again, someone is telling us what we think or how we feel, they're not curious.
25:45
It makes conversations difficult. We start telling ourselves that again,
25:48
I must not be worthy of being seen or heard or understood.
25:51
And yes, you are. You truly are.
25:53
But the person that you're communicating with maybe isn't aware.
25:56
They don't know what they don't know.
25:58
Maybe they're not doing their own work. Maybe they're going to someone that doesn't work
26:02
in this area of the mental health world.
26:05
And if they're not, I mean, for me, not eating and drinking from the four-pillar well,
26:10
and I guess I didn't realize there would be food in the well, and I don't know if that food
26:13
would be very safe to eat.
26:15
But if you're not drinking from the four-pillar well, then they may in fact not be curious
26:20
and they would like to tell you all about your feelings and emotions and your experiences,
26:23
even when they're doing it in a very nice voice.
26:26
Because it truly is, wait for it, it is adorable.
26:30
Because despite what anybody in your life thinks, and this resonates just, if it resonates,
26:35
reach out to me, let me send you the transcript of this podcast or I'll create a worksheet or something.
26:39
I want you to just really understand this part that it's so key that if somebody else is saying,
26:47
what you don't understand about yourself, or I know you better than you know yourself,
26:51
again, it's adorable, because how about they start by asking you about your experience?
26:55
Because there is a very key word, your experience.
26:59
You're the only version of you with all your nature and nurture and birth order and DNA and abandonment
27:04
and rejection and hopes and dreams and fears and expectations and everything, all of that.
27:09
It is unique to you because there are so many variables in life, so many experiences that we're having
27:15
on a second-by-second basis, the things that we're taking in.
27:18
The things that become part of what it feels like to be us, our implicit memory based on the slow residue
27:23
of our lived experience, there are so many things happening every day, every thought,
27:28
all those things that we're taking in.
27:30
So then it makes you a very unique version of you, and therefore, when somebody even just says,
27:37
and they mean, well, hey, I know exactly what you're going through because I used to have a pet
27:41
well and it passed away that it doesn't really feel like wow I really think that
27:46
they do. So it's okay because you're the only version of you.
27:51
And so, I want to be able to help you recognize everything becomes this opportunity, your muse,
27:56
so to speak, to self-confront and grow. Is there truth in what somebody's saying? Is there not?
28:01
Is somebody being curious? And then you can lean in and process things together.
28:04
You know, you can pull up twin studies and see that you can have two people living, in essence,
28:08
the same life, sharing the same DNA, hanging out with each other all the time. Unfortunately,
28:13
maybe their parents dressed in the same way, same clothes for a long period of time.
28:17
But then you get enough of them together and you show them something that happens. This is the way the twin studies often work that I think are so interesting. And they get their perspective of what happened and you have completely different outputs on what their perception is about what really happened.
28:32
So, you are it. You're the only version of you. And there is nothing wrong with you, and you think, and you feel, and you behave the way you do because you do.
28:40
And because you do that, then curiosity is the way to explore the way that you interact with the world, and the way that you think, and the way that you look at life.
28:48
It's a check that out. This is what I said, or this is what I did. Isn't that interesting?
28:51
Let me look at this in the context of what was going on, because every moment in your life, it truly is the very first time that you have been in that moment.
28:58
Moment. So check that out. This is what I said, this is how I felt, this is what I
29:01
did. And once I can accept that, then I can start to take the opportunity and
29:05
take all those experiences and grow into a better version of myself. That and then
29:11
if I start to move away from the people that aren't safe, and I start to grow
29:14
closer to the people that I feel safety with, then I can even start to bounce
29:18
ideas off. Because again, we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with
29:22
another human being. But that can't be done from a place of control, it needs to
29:26
be done from a place of love and empathy and curiosity.
29:29
And I want to tell you about another aha moment. I feel like over the last week or two, that quote that I love, that we are designed to
29:34
deal with emotion in concert with another human being, that I've always thought that
29:38
that simply means that we're designed to have this deep connection with another person in
29:41
order to process things.
29:42
But what we're talking about today is that even if you find yourself interacting with
29:45
someone that is not curious and does not feel safe.
29:48
That you really still are processing your emotion now in concert with that other person because
29:53
the way that you are feeling and the way that that person is showing up, they're giving you data
29:58
that you can take a look at. You can self-confront. Is there truth in that? Or if they are telling me
30:02
things that I know are not true, then is it further resolving me to believe the things that I do?
30:09
So let's get back to the story that I used to start this episode, the orange tinted sunglasses.
30:14
I hope now you can put some of these pieces together and see where the tie-in is, that
30:18
that those glasses seem to be fused into the eyeball sockets of some,
30:22
while others might learn to pull the glasses down.
30:25
But it is scary to think that they may not be right about you because, and I'm talking about from their lens,
30:31
the ones that are pretty fused, and it's because of our default setting of all or nothing, black or white,
30:37
emotionally immature until we're not,
30:39
meaning that often comes with the thought of life as this zero-sum game,
30:44
that if you are right, and this is again to the more emotionally immature person
30:49
that is not curious, that's not doing their work, that if you are right,
30:52
then that must mean that they are wrong.
30:54
And I'm guessing that is not your experience, which then it's interesting,
31:00
you almost need to take your own glasses off to say, oh, wow, if that's the way they see it,
31:04
then it is, maybe it isn't the most productive thing for me to try to get my point across
31:09
if they are not being open to my experience.
31:12
Because in that world of emotional immaturity, and in this all or nothing, black or white,
31:17
emotionally immature or not world.
31:20
That if your experience is completely different than theirs,
31:24
and again, they're not looking at that with any curiosity, then their experience must be bad
31:29
if you think that yours is good.
31:32
Or they now better tell you what you don't even realize about your experience
31:36
in order to put them back in that one-up position.
31:39
Here's the secret. But I would actually love for it to absolutely not be a secret.
31:44
Life is not a zero-sum game. Just because you think that you're right,
31:48
doesn't mean that everybody else is wrong.
31:50
Curiosity is scary until it's not, and it takes effort and a lot of work to be able to not only recognize
31:57
that you do have orange tinted sunglasses on, that we all do to a point,
32:01
but then also to remember to take them off, to see somebody else's perspective,
32:05
and then leave them off as you ask questions.
32:07
So you're not simply trying to prove again to yourself that you understand now what they are saying.
32:12
But from your point of view, because at that point, everything is still tinted orange.
32:17
So imagine then wearing these orange tinted glasses for so long that you forgot the world has other colors.
32:24
Just like how I once ran with the glasses and saw everything a bit differently,
32:28
we do start to get so used to our own thoughts and feelings that we forget that others might see things
32:33
in a completely different way.
32:34
And our lives with all of our experiences continue to look like we're running through those glasses,
32:39
only seeing our version.
32:41
So if we really want to truly understand our friends, family, the world, we have to take those things off.
32:47
So, let me kind of sum up what we've done so far, and I want to share two different examples.
32:52
That communication, it is clouded by our personal biases, and that's okay,
32:57
because that is something that once we're aware of, now we can work with that.
33:01
That truly effective communication is going to happen when both parties can temporarily set aside these biases. And I'm not telling you you have to give up on
33:09
everything that you believe, because you don't. Because that is back to the world of emotional
33:14
immaturity that I guess I am wrong if they think they are right. We are all having our own experience.
33:19
We're all being and doing. So that's why I feel like this is so important to really understand.
33:26
And so in setting our biases aside and acknowledging them, then we can start to
33:33
truly hear and understand each other. And if somebody can't or won't do that, it's tough to
33:37
have a real connection or a real conversation. And I think we're experiencing that a lot in the world
33:42
right now. But everybody deserves to be heard and understood, especially when they're
33:46
coming from a place of self-awareness, genuine intention. If you're communicating from
33:50
a place of healthy ego, a confident self-regard, again, that's based on real accomplishments,
33:56
then you actually don't need to defend or diminish your experiences or perspectives.
34:02
And recognizing the other person's inability to hear you can provide insight into the nature
34:06
of your relationship with them. It teaches you about boundaries and where deeper connection
34:11
might be possible or it might not be possible in that situation.
34:16
So I have a couple of narratives and they are some of my favorite kind.
34:20
They are absolutely based on real experiences, very, very real experiences.
34:26
So the first one, Mark and Jane. So Jane was reflecting on a personal achievement at work.
34:31
She was feeling pretty proud of her efforts and she had overcome a lot to get this achievement at work.
34:38
So she decided to come home and share with her husband, Mark, because she really wanted
34:42
to connect and maybe even celebrate together. And this is where I will say that is absolutely something that is an okay thing.
34:50
It's acceptable. to do that.
34:52
So, Jane comes home and says, Mark, I tackled a massive project at work today.
34:56
I was really proud of how I managed the team and I got everybody on board.
34:59
And without even looking up from his phone, Mark says, well, that's your job, isn't it?
35:03
Doesn't everybody do that? And Jane takes a deep breath. She reminds herself that she,
35:08
has this healthy ego, genuine pride due to her accomplishments. She's worked hard.
35:13
And she said, I understand that it might seem that way, but this was a big deal.
35:17
It was a significant milestone for me. And admittedly, I feel a little bit
35:21
disappointed because I had hoped that you would ask me more questions or that you would even be
35:26
happy for me. And then Mark got pretty defensive and he said, well, I am, but you always talk
35:31
about work. Sometimes it feels like you're just trying to show off. So at that point, Jane realized
35:36
Mark couldn't remove his orange tinted glasses at that moment, especially. But instead of getting
35:42
defensive, because Jane's been doing her own work, she used this as an opportunity to self-reflect
35:48
and grow. So Jane said, I'm genuinely sharing something that matters to me. I'm not seeking
35:52
validation and it's okay if you're not in a space to hear it right now. I just want us to be able to
35:56
share these moments together. And Mark paused, he took a little bit of moment of, and Mark paused,
36:01
he took a moment and he said, okay, maybe I am too caught up in my own stuff. So I really would
36:06
would like to hear about your project.
36:08
And this is a very real example, and Jane stayed rooted in her healthy ego.
36:12
And then she navigated the conversation without diminishing her achievements,
36:15
because it was based off of a healthy ego, or attacking Mark. And that was something that she
36:19
had done a lot of in the past. And so this approach, it created the opportunity for a
36:25
real connection and for understanding. Now that is the best case scenario. Let me throw another.
36:30
One out at you. This is one I deal with often. This is maybe a combination of two or three
36:36
three different conversations that have happened recently.
36:39
This is husband and wife, John and Lisa.
36:42
John sits down next to Lisa and his heart is pounding because he has a mix of anxiety
36:47
and also a little bit of hope because he has been going to therapy
36:50
and he's been working with a therapist
36:52
and working through a bit of a faith journey that he's having.
36:55
And so he said he had recently made some very profound realizations about himself
36:58
and he really wanted to be able to share those with his wife.
37:01
He said, I've been thinking a lot lately, especially after some of my therapy sessions,
37:06
and I realized I have been holding myself to this impossible standard of perfection for so long
37:11
that I always thought it was what my family expected of me.
37:14
But he said, it turns out I kind of might be the only one that's still expecting that from myself.
37:19
And Lisa's flipping through a magazine, and because even when this conversation was being had,
37:25
my joke brain wanted to say, you guys still have magazines?
37:28
But I kept that on the inside.
37:30
But then she replies pretty dismissively, well, that's just how our family's raised us.
37:34
Everybody feels pressure. You just need to learn how to handle it better.
37:37
So that moment, John takes a deep breath and he reminds himself of the growth
37:41
that he'd been through recently. And he said, I hear you, I understand that.
37:45
I believe that this goes deeper. In my sessions, I've seen that while I've been striving
37:49
for this ideal, that many of those around me actually have not held themselves to the same standards.
37:55
And it's been tough because I'm starting to realize a lot of hypocrisy.
37:59
And now she looked up, Lisa looked up, and she was kind of annoyed. And she said,
38:03
so now you're saying that our family and our friends and our church and everybody else are
38:06
a bunch of hypocrites. And she said, John, it actually sounds like you're overthinking things.
38:11
And in that moment, he had said that he felt a pretty deep pang of disappointment. And he realized that she wasn't able to remove her orange tinted
38:19
glasses to truly hear him. She was just telling him how he was feeling. And I really believe it
38:24
it was because she felt uncomfortable.
38:27
But here he maintained his composure. He was rooted in this newfound self-awareness
38:32
that everything really was an opportunity for him to self-confront and grow.
38:35
He was confident about the realizations that he had made and he wanted to share those with his wife.
38:41
And if she is unable to, that does not mean that his experience is diminished.
38:45
It just means now he has the data to self-confront and grow and why does he need that validation?
38:50
It's not that he needs the validation, He wanted an experience, a shared experience.
38:55
So then he responded and said, it's not about pointing fingers,
38:58
it's not about blaming anybody, it's about my journey and the weight that I have been carrying,
39:02
thinking that I needed to be perfect.
39:04
So I was just hoping that I could share this with you so you can understand where I'm coming from.
39:11
And she paused and Lisa got a little less defensive and she said, I really want to understand,
39:16
but it's also really hard for me to hear you criticizing our upbringing and the people that we love.
39:22
So you can see that she's trying to let those glasses down really hard,
39:26
but she's getting very uncomfortable.
39:29
And I see this so often in my office, even from the people that are in here trying to get help.
39:33
And I just want you to know that is okay, it's normal, but it is growth.
39:37
That tension, again, worried about contention, but tension is where the growth really occurs.
39:42
And it's so important to have the right tools.
39:45
So then John said, I appreciate that. I really do. And I'm not criticizing them. I really am just sharing my experience. It's my feelings. It's been hard for me, realizing that often when I have tried to open up, people aren't really listening.
39:57
And he said, I would love to be heard, especially by you. And so he stayed connected. He was in that healthy ego. He approached the conversation without getting defensive or aggressive. And it became this opportunity or a starting point for a deeper understanding and a connection between them.
40:14
Between them. And this thing is ongoing. So I wish I could tell you that then they lived
40:19
happily ever after and they never had another argument and they communicated effectively
40:22
and they have the four pillars painted all over their walls everywhere around their house.
40:27
But that's not the case. So let me break down what holding this assertive frame looks like.
40:34
That I have some criteria here. And the first one is avoid playing the victim. This one
40:40
seems pretty, pretty easy, I would imagine. But when faced with somebody not understanding
40:44
our perspective, we have to resist the urge to betray ourselves as victims or minimize
40:49
our feelings. That's just a way that we, we seek rescue from the discomfort and it's not
40:54
conducive to personal growth and it's not conducive to developing the relationship.
41:00
And even that one alone, I think you can see why it takes work because you have to understand
41:05
what that, how you typically get away with or get away from discomfort and have to be
41:12
coming from this healthy ego, which is based off of the work that you've done and you're
41:16
not doing it looking for validation, you desire a sincere connection. So, the first way that
41:21
you can, would break that and it would get rid of the polarity in the moment immediately
41:26
would be if you play the victim and say, yeah, you know what, honestly, I don't even know
41:31
what I'm talking about. If John would have said that, then that, that breaks the polarity
41:34
There is no connection.
41:38
But this second one I think is so important and it's it's recognizing the need for safety in the relationship that I really do believe if somebody isn't curious or open-minded, it is often because they feel unsafe, they feel emotionally insecure, or they lack control and that lack of control I think is one of the most common reasons that people do feel unsafe because control has been their way to try to manage their discomfort.
42:06
Control or it's a big part of why things like people have OCD tendencies. That
42:12
obsession can cause such anxiety that then the compulsion is the thing that
42:17
you do to get rid of the obsession. And so when that is done over and over again
42:21
you can start to see that the brain says that okay I know how to get rid of my
42:26
anxiety I need to have control and be able to do something. Just recognizing
42:30
that that person, the person that's emotionally dysregulated, emotionally mature, that is amygdala hijacked. This is where I go back to that episode I did
42:37
with my daughter Mackie, that when that person is not seeking connection and
42:42
they may even be in that spot where they're telling you what you think, how
42:45
you feel, what you're supposed to do, that is it is coming from a place that they
42:48
aren't sure what to do. So you may need to recognize their need for safety and,
42:54
their need for, well even more so, again it's yes it's often because they seek
42:59
emotional safety or control, but I go back to they are most likely avoiding
43:03
their own discomfort or trying to maintain a perceived power balance.
43:08
Trying to maintain a perceived power balance.
43:10
And that I think is significant because oftentimes, especially people that have
43:13
been put in positions of authority, that's where I go back to, it's okay to say, I
43:17
don't know, because if somebody is coming from, I believe a more emotionally
43:21
immature lens, then they feel that for some reason that if they are not all
43:26
knowing and have all the answers, then for some reason, then you will not, you
43:32
will not listen to them, you will not like them. But when in reality emotional
43:36
maturity and that consistency and safety comes from the healthy ego and knowing
43:40
what I know and completely understanding that that means there are things I don't
43:43
know and I don't know what I don't even know. So I can provide consistency and
43:48
safety. The third thing is prioritizing connection over ego.
43:53
Because a desire for a sincere connection should surpass, and it's a good should.
43:59
The fear of saying something wrong. Even if the other person is going to retaliate or challenge
44:04
you, remember that your intention is genuine interaction, not control and not validation.
44:10
So I am going to, I'm going to put, I'm going to put connection ahead of my fear or my ego.
44:16
And that is, again, I hope you can see these are you things. Avoid playing the victim role,
44:21
recognizing that they're testing the relationship for safety, even though these are things they may not be aware of, and most likely they're not.
44:27
And then you are now going to put connection ahead of fear, that man, I got to say the right thing, or they may not, they may not like me anymore. And let's be real, a lot of guys that go into nice guy syndrome, or maybe even all the higher desire partners and relationships are they are worried that if they can't calm their partner down, there may be no intimacy, there may be no sex tonight.
44:48
So you have to put your connection ahead of fear that I might say something that I really I do mean but that it might not be the thing that that person wants to hear and then they may be angry and there might be a disconnect but I'm coming from a place of healthy ego.
45:04
If that other person retaliates again or challenges you, your intention is genuine interaction, not control, not validation, not trying to appease them, not trying to alleviate your anxiety and not trying to control their emotional experience.
45:16
But then that can also lead to then demonstrating genuine intent. Show your true intentions by being calm and confident and consistent.
45:24
This is not the time to list all the self-care and personal development things that you have done, but you exemplify them.
45:31
This is where I like to say, this is your time to be and do.
45:35
Not to say, do you know how difficult you are? Do you know how hard I'm working?
45:39
Which leads to the next one, which is refraining from listing your past good deeds. Avoid trying to now at this point get credit for all that you've done in the past for that person, especially if they remain defensive, because starting to seek credit can sidetrack the genuine connection that you're striving for.
45:54
So that number four, the difference there is instead of me going in and saying, look, I'm the one doing the work, I'm the one going to therapy, I'm reading the books, I'm listening to the podcast, and you know, you're not doing those.
46:04
And then the refraining from the listing of the past good deeds is the,
46:08
do you know all that I've done for you?
46:10
This is one that we do as parents so often. Do you know how hard it is?
46:14
And I slave away and I go to work on broken glass, uphill, both ways in the snow, that sort of thing.
46:20
But then the sixth one is embrace that human experience. It is natural to react poorly,
46:25
especially when you're first learning these tools and concepts.
46:28
And that's because when you do not jump into the fray, When you do not, then get angry or you,
46:35
because if you do, you're basically providing them with this attack surface, as one person so aptly said it.
46:42
But if I'm just sitting there being and doing and putting that connection ahead of fear or ego
46:46
and know that that person feels unsafe and I'm not going into victim mode,
46:50
then they're going to push new buttons to get me to react.
46:55
And I think that if you have been a human in an unhealthy conversation with someone,
46:59
you know what I mean.
47:00
This is where they'll start pulling out things the past. Well, you've never been any good at this anyway and that you're probably just gonna run like
47:06
your your dad does or you're you're a horrible lover or you're probably gonna go turn to your
47:11
old addictions or and because just waiting to get you to then go, oh that one did it now I'm reacting.
47:17
So I'm noticing that person is pushing buttons and so then it is natural to react poorly on
47:23
occasion because they may have found a new button. But then acknowledging these reactions and
47:28
and understanding them as opportunities for growth is crucial.
47:31
For you, a misstep is a chance to learn, especially about our triggers and our responses, because unfortunately, when you're dealing with an emotionally
47:38
immature, even a narcissistic, traded or tendency person, that when you then say, oh, that's a low blow.
47:45
Well, you just handed them a playbook.
47:47
You just handed them a giant button that they can push, because now, OK,
47:50
now I can get that person to react, because if you are not reacting and you are holding this frame and you are learning
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and all of these things are for your good,
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then that person is gonna feel pretty exposed if they are being emotionally immature or amygdala hijacked.
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And then the last thing I wanna say is understand the value of experience.
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You deserve to be seen and heard and understood.
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So even if the connection doesn't always happen, every interaction provides a chance
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for self-reflection and growth.
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Disagreements or conflicts aren't necessarily about being right or wrong,
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but they're opportunities to learn more about oneself.
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So just know that even if that person is not desiring a connection with you,
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that are they providing me with anything that I can learn, any data that I can take in.
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Even if it's just to further recognize my worth and that I deserve to be treated better.
48:38
We kind of go back to the John and Lisa narrative because there was a lot of work done with this couple.
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So in this one, alright, so he takes a breath before he approaches Lisa again.
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He is now, his goal is to hold the assertive frame.
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He's been doing a lot of mindfulness exercises to be able to take that breath, that pause.
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And I think it's really helpful and necessary to have his own amygdala calm,
48:59
his heart rate low, that cortisol has receded.
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And so he can access that prefrontal cortex and just be, be the best version of Johnny can be.
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So he's holding that assertive frame. And he says, hey, Lisa, I really,
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I don't want to make it look like I'm playing the victim or make it sound like I'm just complaining.
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I've been reflecting a lot on my experiences and the pressures I felt.
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And I would really like to share this journey with you.
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And so then she's back into the, so you're again, you're saying,
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is this our family again that made you feel the way that you are?
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And so understanding, where he remembers that second concept
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and he understands that she needs to feel safe.
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And so he expresses that he understands it can be tough to hear these things
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and it might challenge their shared experiences, but this is not a blame game.
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He said, I wanna connect with you genuinely about how I feel.
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And she was in a defensive posture. And he said, that's where I recognize
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I gotta put this connection over ego.
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He said, I want to be on the same page. It's not about proving a point.
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I'm trying to share a part of me that's vulnerable and authentic.
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And again, this is a good example of Lisa and John just didn't know what they didn't know.
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Because if you are doing this with someone that is incredibly emotionally immature or narcissistic,
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I would say that John would be handing over too many buttons that will be used against him in the future.
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But at this point, feeling the weight in the conversation, John reminded himself to be this living example
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of his journey and his growth.
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And he knew that he had learned a lot from therapy and meditation and mindfulness.
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And he knew that this was not the time to say, look at all these things I've done,
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because he knew that he had done them.
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And now he's just being and doing.
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And so at that point, he had relayed that he felt like his wife said,
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you, I appreciate you, you are there for me, but sometimes I just feel like you're trying to just
50:43
point out everything that you've done right. And here's, this is why this is such a good example,
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because he has done that. He said plenty. And he said, he actually in that moment wanted to say,
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but I am doing things right. And I know that I used to not be doing things right.
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So he says he recognized that temptation to list all of his good deeds. That was a button she was
51:01
pushing. But instead he chose to embrace the experience. And so he was just staying present.
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And then he paused and he yearned for this genuine connection. And it might not have,
51:14
he said, always happened immediately. But then he said, every conversation we started to have,
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as I became more consistent, every moment of disagreement, he said, ultimately, I realized
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it's an opportunity for me to grow and learn. I want to invite her to come along with me on that
51:26
journey and he says I really would love it if we can both see how this works and
51:31
move forward together but he realized that the the proverbial end of the day,
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that it was his journey of discovery and growth. I'll end there and I know there
51:40
was probably I look at me I think I'm gonna I was about to go victim hey I know that I probably rambled a little bit and said things over and over again
51:47
but no I'm really I'm grateful that if you made it to the end of this and I
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would love to get your feedback your comments I would love examples of it I
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would love questions I can answer in the future. And if,
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this resonated with you, please reach out, I would love to provide you with a transcript or maybe a worksheet or two that
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I'm putting together. Because I think this is such an important
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thing to learn how to hold this this assertive frame, and learn how to just be more consistent. And it will help bump up your
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emotionally mature game, which then granted, you want this connection with those around you. But if they are not able to
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connect in the way that you deserve connection, it doesn't mean that you are bad or you are doing anything wrong, but it becomes more data for growth.
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Thank you for your time. In the meantime, take it easy out for you with the wonderful, the talented.
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Music.