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E313: The #1 Reason To Be Christian w/Gavin Ortlund | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

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  You see a trend of young men that are becoming Catholic and
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  Orthodox. Oh man, I think about this a
• 0:04
  lot. This is the nerve center of it
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  all. Has the Roman Catholic Church
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  stood the test of time for 2000 years on these issues?
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  You mean Magisterium that you felt they contradicted
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  themselves? Yes, in the Magisterium.
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  Correct. For example.
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  When I look at Luther and Calvin, there are a lot of
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  beliefs that they have that most Protestants today do not have.
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  One of them is the question of. What you just raised is a very
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  strong point. Evangelicals are weak in this
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  area and don't even know that we're doing.
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  That have you ever asked God if it is true?
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  Give me the grace to believe it. This is why I value sola
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  scriptura. What is the number one reason
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  that somebody should become a Christian?
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  You couldn't be Protestant? Would you be Orthodox or
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  Catholic? Ohh, bet.
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  Gavin Nortland, welcome to the podcast.
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  So thankful to be here, thankful for your work and what you do
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  for the pro-life cause especially, but so many other
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  things as well. So this is an.
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  Thank you, thank you. Well, I'm so grateful for you
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  being a bold apologist for life and a winsome one, which is I
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  think sometimes lost in the weeds when you're getting into
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  these debates. People can get full of anger or
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  righteous, you know, self righteousness even, and you do
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  it with such a loving winsomeness.
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  So thank you. You've written a book about how
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  to do it with a loving winsomeness too.
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  Yeah, well, we want to win people over, right?
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  We don't just want to be against what is wrong.
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  We want to rally the troops to what is right.
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  And so that's what I want to give my life to.
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  Yes, you were sharing about how you used to be pastoring a
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  church in Ojai, CA, fellow Californian, but then during
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  COVID you ended up starting your online apologetics ministry and
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  now you've left and you're in Tennessee and you're doing that
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  full time, right? What was the inspiration for
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  that? It's not something I ever
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  thought that I would be doing. I've always kind of had a wary
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  eye towards the online world, and I just know a lot of the
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  temptations that come up with that.
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  And we loved our church. We miss it.
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  You know, we're vacationing with all of our kids this week in
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  California, and we do miss this part of the country.
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  We had family in Nashville, so that was part of the draw there,
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  wanting to be closer to parents. But honestly, as I started Truth
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  Unites, my started just as a YouTube channel and I just found
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  there are needs that can be met in this way.
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  And to my own surprise, I began to get traction and began to
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  feel a sense of resonance and there was fruit that was being
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  born. As I see, you know, these days
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  especially young men don't go to the Public Library for answers.
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  They go to podcasts and they go to YouTube and they go to places
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  like this. And if Christians vacate from
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  those spaces, then they're not going to get good answers.
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  And my heart just burns with a passion for, especially for
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  young men, but really for everyone to find a sense of
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  assurance in the gospel to kind of settle into their faith.
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  I think a lot of people just have anxiety about what they
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  believe. We're bombarded with so much
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  information. A lot of people don't really
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  know how to land on something. And so I want to shepherd
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  people. I view apologetics as a pastoral
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  exercise, and I want to shepherd people toward a settled, joyful
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  faith. And I just began to see
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  opportunities for that. And then honestly, it's not been
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  a big master plan. It's just been trying to follow
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  Jesus one step after another. Beautiful.
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  What is the single biggest reason, the number one reason,
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  that somebody should become a Christian?
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  It's hard to answer this question and be able to give the
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  joy of the answer enough. Because if Christianity is true,
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  then Jesus rising from the dead is the best news imaginable for
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  those who trust in Jesus. So the biggest reason is to know
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  God. If Christianity is true, then by
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  becoming a Christian you are being reconciled to your
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  Creator. And words fail to even convey
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  what we're talking about here. But to know an infinite God?
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  To be loved by an infinite God, to have everlasting life.
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  This is the constant emphasis of my ministry is I always want to
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  try to help people understand the emotional implications and
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  that I think Christianity has good arguments.
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  But honestly, a lot of times where people actually feel
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  settled in their faith. And this has been my experience
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  has been the way it speaks to the heart.
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  And this is really become a little bit more of my focus with
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  apologetics is pastoring people to see the implications of the
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  gospel for the deepest longings of their heart.
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  People who have suffered profoundly in this life.
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  The gospel can offer healing that cannot be conveyed in words
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  How how beautiful and meaningful it is.
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  People who have deep longings and an ache in their heart that
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  they can't quite articulate what it what are they longing for?
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  I think they're longing for God. They're longing for the beatific
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  vision to see God in heaven. So the ultimate reason to be a
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  Christian is to experience what you were made for, and that is
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  fellowship with God. And oh boy, it would be fun to
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  unpack that at great length. But I want people to understand.
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  I mean, if people are feeling a sense of excitement, they're
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  feeling thrilled, they're feeling a sense of enchantment,
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  like Lucy and the Chronicles of Narnia walking through the
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  wardrobe into Narnia. That's what it should feel like
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  to consider Christianity. Because if Jesus rose from the
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  dead, it means infinite joy, infinite comfort.
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  It doesn't take away suffering, but it means there's hope in the
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  midst of it. I just want people to feel that.
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  I think a lot of people today, especially in our kind of post
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  Christian culture, Western culture, they have a sense of
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  God in spirituality and they might experience some
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  consolations where they feel there's some earnest, sincere
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  heart movement toward God the Father.
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  They haven't maybe ascended to God, this, you know, as the Holy
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  Spirit, as Jesus Christ, but they have the sense of God
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  universally is loving and he loves me, he created me.
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  And then they get involved in like New Agey stuff or their own
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  kind of personal subjective spirituality that sort of
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  unmoored from Big T truth. And then on the morality issues,
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  they're kind of all over the place.
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  And they haven't really come to believe the fullness of
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  Christianity. They maybe believe certain
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  elements, but they're like, we're not going to do the rest
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  of those Christianity stuff because it's judgmental or I
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  don't want to live by it or whatever it is.
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  But they do feel some sort of a sense of God's, God's life in
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  their life. What?
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  What do you say to someone like that?
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  I think this is probably more of a challenge to apologetics than
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  a strict atheism. I agree because it's.
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  The atheists are easy in a way can compared to this kind of
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  wishy washy person. Yeah, because you see the stakes
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  more clearly. Also, atheists are a smaller
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  percentage of the population. So many people are in the
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  spiritual but not or. Yeah, spiritual but not
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  religious kind of category. I in those conversations, I find
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  it helpful to go straight to Jesus and just talk about the
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  claims of Christ. And I want to almost let him
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  carry the weight. So I'll just quote passages
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  where Jesus says things that are hard to accept.
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  You know, he, Jesus talks a lot about hell, for example, more
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  than any other biblical figure, Jesus had a lot of warnings to
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  give about hell, about God's wrath, about the fiery darkness
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  and so forth. He taught his own uniqueness.
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  I think very clearly, not just in statements like John 14, six,
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  I am the way in the truth and the life.
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  No one comes to the Father but through me.
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  But even the metaphors he uses where he's saying I'm the light
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  of the world, I mean, that's an amazing statement.
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  I'm the bread of life. So I want to quote Jesus and
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  then I want to make a logical appeal to my friend.
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  One of my favorite arguments is CS Lewis's old trilemma, the
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  Lord Liar Lunatic Trilemma. And today we have to add on the
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  legend category as well to talk about, well, did he claim to be
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  God? Meaning he's more just this
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  positive teacher that never even claimed to be God.
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  So he couldn't be liar, lunatic, or or the Messiah.
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  It's one of it's, it could be that he just said I'm here to
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  help him like a prophet. Exactly.
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  Yeah. So that's that's probably the
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  leading alternative option for like academic skeptics today who
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  will say Jesus didn't really claim to be God.
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  That's a later development that comes about.
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  I think that's also very influenced by Islam actually,
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  because that's what Islam teaches about Jesus.
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  And so that's sort of in the kind of environment, the more
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  that there is an influence of, I think Muslim belief and, and,
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  and culture is this idea that, yeah, we respect Jesus, He was a
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  prophet. But you know, not that this
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  person would say Muhammad is a prophet, but they were just kind
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  of had the sense of Jesus's respectable.
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  He's a good teacher, but he's not God.
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  I think you're right. Islam and sort of Western
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  academia both go that route. And they're saying, well, yes,
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  Jesus existed, He was a religious person of
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  significance, but he didn't claim to be God.
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  So I think Brant Petra has a great book about this.
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  There's some great resources we have, and I think that's a great
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  area. If someone's watching this and
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  they're thinking, I want to get involved in apologetics, what's
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  an important area? Something in this space feels
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  really important right now. Maybe something on is the Gospel
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  of John eyewitness testimony, because John has some of the
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  clearest teaching about this. But even from Mark, I think it's
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  very clear Jesus assumed a divine authority in the way he
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  forgave sins in his claims. I mean that the basic plot line
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  of the Gospels is Jesus gets crucified and the charge is
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  blasphemy and you've got Caiaphas tearing his clothes and
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  at when Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 and Psalm 110 and Mark 14
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  there. So I think we can make that
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  case. And if Jesus did claim to be
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  God, then this goes back to the question about the spiritual,
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  but not religious person and say, well, we really need to
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  submit our ideas to Christ's if he claimed to be, If you become
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  accepted that Jesus rose from the dead, that he was God at
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  that point, our, our conceptions of spirituality, the rational
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  thing to do is just to lay those down and say, Jesus knows more
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  than I do. So I, that's just what I found
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  helpful in my own practice of evangelism.
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  Just go straight to Jesus and say, what did he teach about
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  this? Because most of the spiritual
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  but not religious people respect Jesus and they're not going to
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  say, well, Jesus was just totally bad.
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  They have some kind of high view of Jesus.
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  So that's where I think letting him do the the hard work there
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  and his own teachings clarify things.
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  That's one strategy I find helpful.
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  So CS Lewis introducing this idea of Lord, liar or lunatic,
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  which you just referenced as a way to help people understand or
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  really just face up to what Jesus is saying about himself
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  instead of kind of living in ambivalence.
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  Jesus is either a liar. He's lying about who he is.
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  He's a lunatic. He was just crazy and, you know,
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  went raging mad to the crucifixion and somehow the
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  resurrection is a hoax then. Or he's actually the Son of God
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  who died for our sins and he was resurrected and he gave us this
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  entire prescription of how to live.
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  And we have to ascend to one of those those things.
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  If CS Lewis were alive today, because I think he died about
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  6360 plus years ago, what do you think CS Lewis would say about
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  the state of modern Christianity?
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  The first thing that comes to my mind because I have a video
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  script that's half written, I don't know if you ever have
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  these that are just in the queue waiting like this, and it's the
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  title of it, would be kind of a fun video.
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  Would CS Lewis watch YouTube? And it's a way to make a point
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  about the dangers of technology and social media.
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  And because I think CS Lewis had some what some people would
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  regard as old fashioned instincts, but I would regard as
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  probably just more wise instincts about the way
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  technology shapes us. And I'm pretty set.
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  So my answer here is I think he would be alarmed at the way
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  technology is shaping Christians.
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  And that's not the only thing, but that is the first thing that
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  comes to my mind, partly because of in my own life, I have to be
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  so vigilant about this. I mean, I went into it.
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  I got into it later in life, in my late 30s, I started a YouTube
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  channel. But even for me, it is easy to
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  fall into getting addicted to it.
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  I've check it habitually. It affects my mental health.
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  One thing I've noticed lately, and I'm embarrassed about this,
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  but it affects my intellectual curiosity.
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  How so? Well, ten years ago, early 30s,
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  back into my late 20s, I was doing my PHDI had such an
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  appetite for reading new books. And I have to admit that though
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  I that's still there, it can get crowded out by the speed of
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  life. Now, part of this is we have 5
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  kids now, so life is just more full.
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  But it it's easy for that intellectual curiosity to be
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  dulled by the constant bombardment of the way the
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  algorithms are affecting us. And then you add on to that the
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  way the algorithms pit Christians against one another.
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  I wrote a book about disagreement, never expecting to
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  write on that topic, but just out of a pastoral burden because
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  Christians are sometimes the worst offenders in these ways of
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  just. Christians can be vicious
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  online. Absolutely vicious.
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  It's embarrassing when you think about non Christians looking on
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  to this and getting this as A and that.
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  I'm not saying I'm not one to say we shouldn't argue with each
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  other because I think there's. Just like interdenominationally
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  or Catholics be orthodoxy Protestants but vicious.
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  Like it's not even that doesn't even matter.
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  Often. Catholics, some of the most
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  people vicious people to me online.
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  I've not been pro aborts, it's been some other Catholics who
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  are very fringe in some of their behaviors or beliefs. 1000% I
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  was just at the Blessed God Summit that Ruslan hosted, had a
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  great time there, did a dialogue with Trent Horn and a few
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  others, and Trent and I were talking afterwards and we were
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  both saying the people who attacked me the most are
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  Protestants. The people who attack Trent the
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  most are Catholics in terms of that viciousness.
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  And so I think you're right, it's not something has changed
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  for the bad because of the Internet in how Christians talk
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  to each other. And even though that may not
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  seem like it's the most dire threat when we've got wars going
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  on and so many other things, I do think it's worth us taking
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  very seriously. I think CS Lewis would notice
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  that. And I think if he were alive to
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  answer your original question, he would caution us to say, be
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  very vigilant about how the Internet is shaping us in our
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  mental health and in our relations with other people.
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  Because it's not a small matter if if we're biting and devouring
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  each other as the body of Christ, that has an impact on
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  the Kingdom of God. People look at that and they
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  say, oh, that's what Jesus is like.
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  I don't want anything to do with that.
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  And then also people just grow discouraged people.
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  I've known people who say I just don't want anything to do with
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  the church. I still believe, I still love
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  Jesus, but it's just been such a brutal place to function.
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  Now, that's sometimes a particular local church
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  experience, and that can happen, but the point is, it matters how
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  we treat each other. Yes, it does.
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  And I think also making the distinction, but around what
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  does it mean about disagreement versus attack?
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  Because I think some people might see any disagreement as
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  attack and that's over, over the top, Like you need to be able to
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  disagree and discuss things, but you have to do it with that
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  charitable approach versus name calling versus slander versus,
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  you know, unfair caricatures or characterizations.
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  And then you would, you know, go after that one instead of what
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  the person actually is saying or attempting to say.
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  Character assassinations. What, what do you think when you
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  see these divisions or attacks online, would you say is the
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  biggest pitfall for Christians in terms of how it the kind of
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  pattern of behavior that you see in the way that they are being
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  vicious? The first thing that comes to my
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  mind, maybe this is off base, but the sheer issue of spending
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  so much time online that we've gotten so involved in that
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  culture that we're not even aware of how it's affecting us,
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  We're so enmeshed in that culture that we've just lost our
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  bearings. And that's why my constant
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  advice to young people especially, but all of us, is
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  just make sure you balance whatever your online engagement
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  is with lots and lots and lots of real life face to face
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  friendships. I think one of the biggest
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  challenges in our culture is loneliness.
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  Young people who just don't live in community, they don't have
• 16:30
  anyone to sit down with and unburden their heart and say
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  here's how I'm really doing. And we're not bearing each
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  other's burdens. Nobody really knows what's going
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  on inside their heart. So we need lots of real life
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  conversations. I do a lot of Protestant
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  apologetics, and so that's something I've just really tried
• 16:48
  over the years to cultivate the healthy balance of.
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  On the one hand, we don't want to be so squishy that we can't
• 16:55
  talk candidly about the differences because they matter.
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  On the other hand, we see the danger of this kind of hateful
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  approach where the other side were demonizing the other side.
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  And so part of sometimes what people need is to lean into the
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  awkwardness of disagreement and kind of be courageous to talk.
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  Sometimes it takes more courage to disagree with your friend
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  than the person online and just lean in with an open heart, a
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  loving heart, but just talk things through and and share
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  what's really on your heart. So I don't think the answer is
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  disengagement. If there's one thing I could
• 17:28
  shepherd people towards, it's wish well upon the soul of the
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  other person. Pray for them.
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  It in my mind it helps me if they're a brother or sister in
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  Christ to picture them in heaven after they've been glorified,
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  after they've been perfected and then in my heart wish them
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  towards that and and know that's where they're headed and then
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  make the arguments and we. Hope they're headed as we are.
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  We. Hope.
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  We hope. Yeah.
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  I don't know they're, I don't know for sure, but if they're my
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  fellow Christian, this is what I want to wish on them in my
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  heart. And then we make our arguments
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  and that. And the only caveat I'd give to
• 18:05
  that is if someone has really wounded you, it's also okay to
• 18:08
  have some accountability and some boundaries.
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  I don't want to act like you can't ever separate from a
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  conversation or something like that.
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  But the point is, we want to wish well upon the people we
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  disagree with. One thing that has helped me is
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  to, and this is not just for people who disagree with me
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  online, it's for anybody in my life or even people caught up in
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  the evils of abortion, you know, operating in the abortion
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  industry or abusers of children, like all of the most heinous
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  crimes you can imagine. But in order to have the right
• 18:37
  posture of heart, imagine even the oppressor, the victimizer as
• 18:41
  a child themselves. Because they all were once
• 18:44
  children. And often people that were
• 18:47
  wounded as children go on to and then never heal or never get set
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  right, they go on to wound. Now that doesn't excuse horrible
• 18:54
  behavior in any way, but it helps you can.
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  It helps you understand the makeup of someone often.
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  So imagine them as kids and it's harder to feel angry or
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  animosity towards someone who's just an adult.
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  But still, you know, it it in their heart, there's still a
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  child, a little child in there somewhere.
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  Yeah, it's beautiful. I love that.
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  And just. Yeah.
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  And. And with that, the truth that
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  everyone is made in God's image. I mean, the more that I grow as
• 19:22
  a Christian, the more and then then I study church history.
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  I really believe that idea has bettered the world so
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  profoundly. And if you, because if you go
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  into it saying every single person is made in God's image
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  and you study what it means to be made in God's image and the
• 19:37
  dignity that that invests in every human person, that is a
• 19:42
  beautiful concept. And most, I think I can say most
• 19:45
  ancient cultures didn't have something like that.
• 19:49
  Sometimes I've done some study on this.
• 19:52
  A lot of the other ancient Mesopotamian and Egyptian
• 19:55
  cultures would say the royal figure, the king or the queen
• 19:58
  bears the image of the deity. But not everybody.
• 20:02
  And Genesis 1 comes along in human history, and it's so
• 20:05
  beautiful. It democratizes this idea and
• 20:08
  says every person bears God's image.
• 20:11
  And again, it doesn't take away the the place for, you know,
• 20:14
  firm rebuke and resistance against evil.
• 20:17
  But even those people that I mean this, this makes it
• 20:20
  possible to follow Christ's commandment, pray for our
• 20:23
  enemies, because we know those people are still a reflection of
• 20:27
  God in some way. Yes, we have only one enemy, Big
• 20:31
  E enemy. It's the evil one.
• 20:33
  Everyone else is just waiting for an active conversion in
• 20:37
  their hearts for them to be closer to God and reject the way
• 20:40
  of evil. And this might sound kind of
• 20:42
  strange, but it has helped me to remember the reality of
• 20:45
  spiritual warfare when we are tempted to hate other people.
• 20:51
  Sometimes I think forgetting the fact that there are angels and
• 20:54
  demons effects that because there's a proper place for that
• 20:59
  kind of unmitigated opposition and that we feel toward the
• 21:03
  demons. I think there's a a kind of
• 21:06
  hatred that is appropriate to the demons but not to human
• 21:09
  beings. Even the word hatred, we can
• 21:11
  qualify that to make sure our hearts aren't going awry there.
• 21:13
  But point is, if we forget about our ultimate enemy, it's easier
• 21:17
  to demonize human beings and we remember that we have that
• 21:21
  ultimate enemy. It it just puts things in
• 21:24
  perspective I think. And I think also, like you were
• 21:27
  saying earlier, remembering the character of a Christian and the
• 21:29
  character of love, Love believes all things, hopes all things,
• 21:33
  endures all things. And so and that's just not like
• 21:36
  all things. That's for all people.
• 21:38
  You believe and you hope and you endure on the for the sake of
• 21:41
  other people, including that enemy.
• 21:44
  You know that that person that might seem like an enemy, you
• 21:46
  want to believe for them, you want to hope for them.
• 21:48
  You want to even endure persecution, not just because
• 21:52
  you love Jesus for yourself, but because you're called to love
• 21:55
  them. And that's a sign of what it
• 21:57
  even means to be a Christian. Yeah, it helps me also to think
• 22:00
  of the apostle Paul and people like this.
• 22:02
  And there's others in church history who have been dire
• 22:05
  opponents of the gospel, and their lives have been
• 22:08
  transformed by Christ. And so it's just wonderful to
• 22:12
  talk this through with you and step back from the noise of the
• 22:15
  online world and put your heart back into that place to say that
• 22:18
  the people who wounded me the most, it's OK to have boundaries
• 22:22
  sometimes. But am I praying for them?
• 22:24
  Yes, yes. And am I praying that God would
• 22:26
  do in them what He did when the apostle Paul encountered Christ?
• 22:31
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  When it's TV time for our kids, which we try to do sparingly,
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  I'm constantly thinking about what they're watching and
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  whether it's helping or hurting their formation.
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  That's why we really love Brave Plus in our household.
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  It's a streaming service that's vetted by real Christian parents
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  and only one out of every 20 shows are accepted.
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  Not only do the shows and movies actually align with our biblical
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  values, but more than that, Brave Plus also rejects over
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  stimulating content that's linked to mental and behavioral
• 23:56
  issues. And the best part is my kids
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  actually enjoy the shows. If you're trying to be more
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  intentional about the kind of shows that come into your home,
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  go to braveplus.com/lila and use the code Lila for seven days
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  seven days free. And when you sign up, let me
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  know what your kids favorite show is.
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  They're gonna love it. We were both just at the Blessed
• 24:20
  God Summit with our friend Ruslan, who's amazing.
• 24:23
  I heard you gave a great talk. You also gave a great talk.
• 24:28
  I think you did a talk and then you also did something with
• 24:30
  Trent, right? A couple different panels in the
• 24:33
  one talk. Yeah, and that you had a
• 24:35
  conversation with Trent Horn. And Josh Nadeau, wonderful,
• 24:39
  wonderful guy, Eastern Orthodox Christian.
• 24:41
  So it's kind of a Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox
• 24:43
  discussion. How did it go?
• 24:45
  I didn't get to see it. It was a lot of fun.
• 24:47
  It was. It went great.
• 24:49
  It was a good example of kind of I think.
• 24:51
  Are you Catholic or Orthodox after that?
• 24:53
  No, I've Protestant, I've settled as a Protestant, but I
• 24:57
  also have a lot of love for people in the other traditions.
• 25:00
  And that was a good example of a dialogue where we were honest.
• 25:03
  I mean, Trent and Josh are people that like when I it's
• 25:07
  wonderful to be able to feel free to just state what's really
• 25:11
  on your heart and bring your best argument.
• 25:14
  And when you think someone misheard you say so.
• 25:18
  And when you think someone is wrong, say, you know, with all
• 25:21
  love ice respectfully disagree here is why.
• 25:24
  But then afterwards still be friends.
• 25:26
  And that's the kind of relationship I think I have with
• 25:29
  someone like Trent, Josh as well many others outside of the
• 25:32
  Protestant world. So it was good.
• 25:34
  We we talked all about I think we talked about salvation,
• 25:37
  especially justification and things like that.
• 25:40
  That was good because I think there's a lot of
• 25:42
  misunderstandings around. You know, a lot of Protestants
• 25:45
  think what Catholics believe in a works righteousness.
• 25:48
  You have to earn your way. And I think there's
• 25:51
  misunderstandings there. And I think we can actually see
• 25:53
  we have some common ground, but we have differences, too.
• 25:55
  So we talked about, oh, boy, the necessity of confessing to a
• 25:59
  priest. That was a point of disagreement
• 26:02
  we were talking through. But yeah, good discussion.
• 26:06
  And I hope for more of those. I think the more we can model
• 26:09
  for viewers that we can talk through our disagreements and
• 26:13
  there's actually sincerity on both sides sometimes.
• 26:16
  Sometimes you have people who are in both intelligent, they've
• 26:18
  studied the issues, both are sincere.
• 26:21
  It's not like one side that going back to the online perils,
• 26:25
  one of them is if they don't agree with my position, they
• 26:29
  just haven't studied enough or they're a hypocrite and they're
• 26:32
  not really sincere. I don't think that helps us.
• 26:36
  I think the world is complicated enough that there are people who
• 26:39
  land in different spots even while they're seeking the truth.
• 26:42
  That's the approach I take because I know so many people
• 26:45
  who disagree with me. I think I'm in good faith.
• 26:48
  I think I'm seeking the truth. I know people who disagree with
• 26:50
  me. I think the same of them.
• 26:52
  So the more we can model discussions where we just, but
• 26:56
  then we can make progress and we can try to, you know, make
• 26:59
  appeals. The great thing about a Catholic
• 27:01
  to Protestant discussion is we have a lot of common ground.
• 27:05
  So we can go back to the Scriptures, we can go to church
• 27:09
  history, and we can sort of wrangle over these differences,
• 27:13
  though they are complicated. Well, and I think going to the
• 27:15
  conversation with this, I mean you said just a few minutes ago,
• 27:18
  I think you said something like, well, no, I'm Protestant.
• 27:20
  I don't know if you use the word settled.
• 27:22
  Yes, settled or convicted. Or as a Protestant, yeah, at the
• 27:25
  end of the day, you're seeking the truth.
• 27:27
  There's no special animus for either of us against
• 27:30
  Protestantism, Catholic, Orthodox.
• 27:33
  It's more we are seeking it. The goal is truth.
• 27:36
  The goal is Jesus Christ. I like what you said there.
• 27:39
  There's no special animus or bias or it's not like, you know,
• 27:42
  I'm just committed to Protestantism or Catholicism or
• 27:45
  whatever it may be just as a matter of course, and I'm just
• 27:49
  going to stick with that no matter what.
• 27:51
  You're right, Jesus is the truth.
• 27:53
  We want to follow Christ and therefore we need to have an
• 27:55
  open heart. Now, I also think there's people
• 27:57
  who study these issues long enough that they can feel a
• 28:00
  settled miss relatively. They can feel like, you know,
• 28:05
  I'm not because I've had even had people who say, well,
• 28:08
  Gavin's about to become Catholic or but then at the same time
• 28:12
  other people are saying he's about to become Orthodox because
• 28:14
  I spoke at an Orthodox. People become Orthodox and then
• 28:17
  they become Catholic. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:18
  When I've seen people go through all different directions of
• 28:21
  those things, it's kind of fascinating.
• 28:22
  But people assume that because I'm being friendly or I'm
• 28:26
  collaborating. So I will speak at an Orthodox
• 28:29
  conference on issues like marriage to defend a biblical
• 28:32
  view of marriage. One man, one woman, lifelong
• 28:34
  covenant. I I mean, to me, those issues
• 28:37
  are easy. We can stand together on social
• 28:39
  issues. That's that's, I would say
• 28:42
  urgently important. But if we do that, then some
• 28:44
  people overeat that. So that's why I also want partly
• 28:48
  that's in my mind you're. Like I'm on the Lila Roche show,
• 28:50
  I better make sure everyone knows I'm Protestant.
• 28:52
  Don't worry, we have a lot of Protestants people people know.
• 28:56
  I have a few very quick, quick rapid fire questions that I'm
• 29:00
  going to ask you. If you couldn't be Protestant,
• 29:02
  would you be Orthodox or Catholic?
• 29:04
  Oh man, no, no, no. So well, this is, I have thought
• 29:07
  about this. And the caveat is when people
• 29:10
  hear me answer this, they're going to say, oh, so he must be
• 29:12
  on his way to I. Know, I think I know what you're
• 29:14
  going. To say so it's not the case, but
• 29:16
  I would be Catholic. That surprised me when I looked.
• 29:18
  At that surprises me. I actually thought you.
• 29:19
  I thought you might say Orthodox.
• 29:21
  I thought I would land there because of the, I mean, I have
• 29:26
  tremendous respect for so many Christians in that tradition as
• 29:28
  well. And there's such beauty to it.
• 29:30
  And the this, the emphasis upon mysticism, prayer, the body, the
• 29:34
  role of the body in prayer. I've learned so much from that
• 29:36
  tradition. I love studying the essence,
• 29:38
  energies, distinction, all that. Sorry, this is supposed to be
• 29:40
  rapid fire. No, I love it.
• 29:41
  It'd be Catholic because of the filioque and a whole host of
• 29:44
  other issues. And I do appreciate the Catholic
• 29:46
  traditions, I mean, and the rich spirituality that's developed to
• 29:50
  the, to the, and in the way it, it has, it is more ecumenical
• 29:54
  that is, so I couldn't submit to any system that says salvation
• 29:59
  is just in this one institution. I think the more ecumenical
• 30:03
  posture of Roman Catholicism is, is is much better.
• 30:08
  And I appreciate that. OK, here's a fun one.
• 30:10
  What's your favorite book in the Bible?
• 30:12
  The Book of Revelation. I love the images, the
• 30:15
  strangeness of it. I just did my lengthiest video
• 30:19
  ever which was a 2 hour walkthrough of Revelation.
• 30:21
  It was so fun to study for and I love how children resonate with
• 30:25
  all the images. If you could meet Martin Luther,
• 30:27
  what would you ask him? Oh man, it'd be something to do
• 30:31
  with his grumpiness late in life.
• 30:33
  And I would I would try to talk, ask him about, you know, what
• 30:37
  are you going through that provokes this, may I say a
• 30:40
  souring over the years. And I don't know what the
• 30:44
  specific question would be, but it's be something along those
• 30:46
  lines of I understand he's in the trenches and and it takes a
• 30:50
  toll on you over the decades, but do something related to
• 30:54
  anti-Semitic concerns with him. And it would be of a
• 31:00
  confrontational nature on those issues.
• 31:02
  You would confront Martin Luther on that.
• 31:04
  Yep, that this is going to make it into the thumbnail surely
• 31:07
  somehow. OK, what did he say that you
• 31:10
  didn't like? He I think it's a fair statement
• 31:14
  to Luther to say he hardened over the years.
• 31:16
  Yes, I agree. I think, which he probably did
• 31:21
  better than I would do if I was in a situation where I'm, I
• 31:23
  mean, we have to again. It was at war chronically.
• 31:27
  And he had health issues. But there are concerns about
• 31:31
  what I, I think we can just call anti-Semitic remarks.
• 31:34
  And I won't try to reproduce exact quotations from the top of
• 31:37
  my head again, but that'd be an area of of discussion.
• 31:42
  Not the first or the last, unfortunately.
• 31:45
  Who do you think is the best theologian in history?
• 31:48
  For systematic rigor and scope, Thomas Aquinas for heart.
• 31:54
  Yeah, and pathos and imaginative depth.
• 31:59
  Augustine of Hippo. I don't know if I'm just going
• 32:02
  to leave it there. OK, should there be female
• 32:06
  pastors? I've argued no, and that is a
• 32:11
  point where the I think the Christian tradition is very
• 32:13
  clear and I think the New Testament is clear.
• 32:17
  I think God values women, wants women to serve him with their
• 32:20
  spiritual gifts. The thing is people go way too
• 32:23
  far with this sometimes. There's like this hyper
• 32:25
  masculine vibe right now that is not consistent with the New
• 32:30
  Testament or church history in many respects either.
• 32:33
  But I think there's a divine design for how marriage and the
• 32:36
  church are ordered, and I think there is a unique role of
• 32:40
  servant leadership for men in church office and in marriage.
• 32:44
  Who is your favorite Catholic St.
• 32:47
  OH? Boy, I can't remember if Brother
• 32:50
  Lawrence is a St. I don't think he is.
• 32:53
  That's a pretty good question. But I really want to go with
• 32:56
  Brother Lawrence. He wrote a book called The
• 32:59
  Practice of the Presence of God, which profoundly changed my
• 33:01
  life. It's about how you can be
• 33:03
  mindful of God at all times. And even he talks about when
• 33:06
  you're doing the dishes, you can do each dish to the glory of
• 33:08
  God. I love the human nature of that
• 33:13
  council, and who can't relate to that?
• 33:16
  I have a lot of tasks to do, but I want to do them with
• 33:19
  mindfulness to God. People should.
• 33:22
  If you read anything in your whole life, read The Practice of
• 33:25
  the Presence of God. It's short, it'll change your
• 33:27
  life. Beautiful.
• 33:29
  Who is your favorite apologist besides yourself?
• 33:32
  It wouldn't be myself. No, I look at myself and I often
• 33:36
  cringe when I look at old videos.
• 33:37
  So favorite apologist, I'm going to, I'm going to say Tim Keller.
• 33:42
  I don't know how people will feel about this answer because
• 33:45
  he's not really an apologist per SE.
• 33:47
  This is a he's gone home to be with the Lord now, but he was a
• 33:50
  pastor in New York City. But what I loved about him, I'm
• 33:52
  going to I'm going to cheat and give 2 answers him and then a
• 33:55
  man named Jerem Bars who's very dear seminary professor I had.
• 34:00
  What I love about them both is they actually practiced
• 34:02
  evangelism constantly. And So what I learned from them
• 34:07
  about apologetics was drawn out of their experiences.
• 34:11
  And Jerem in particular model gentleness and respect toward
• 34:15
  non Christians as were commanded in first Peter 3:15 And that
• 34:19
  mentality is so powerful. Once you've seen it, you can
• 34:22
  never be the same again. Because you say I want to be
• 34:24
  like that, no compromise, but love for the non Christian.
• 34:28
  That's what they taught me. What would you be if you
• 34:30
  couldn't be? Or if you weren't an apologist
• 34:33
  and pastor. This is going to sound really
• 34:35
  strange, but I've often I've never taken an acting class in
• 34:39
  my entire life, but I'm fascinated by the discipline of
• 34:44
  acting people who go into character acting.
• 34:46
  Ricky Martin, I can kind of see it a little bit.
• 34:48
  Ricky. Martin.
• 34:49
  I don't know who Ricky Martin is.
• 34:52
  Like, that's his name, right? The father of the bride.
• 34:54
  That's the movie. Steve Martin.
• 34:56
  Steve Martin. OK, I've never had a Steve
• 34:58
  Martin comparison. I'm sorry.
• 35:00
  That means my hair is coming. In Gray.
• 35:02
  Yeah, I'm so sorry. No, Look at this guy.
• 35:04
  Look, look. I hope a young Steve Martin.
• 35:09
  Harris OK. Steve Martin.
• 35:11
  Steve Martin. I got you.
• 35:12
  I've never had that one before, but I can maybe kind of see it.
• 35:15
  It's hard to tell what it's yourself that's hilarious.
• 35:19
  So acting I, you know, I find it fascinating to think about the
• 35:23
  skills that go into that and that experience of kind of
• 35:26
  entering into someone else's personality.
• 35:28
  I love Jim Carrey. I think about what he did for
• 35:30
  that movie Man on the Moon, where he's like living in this
• 35:32
  character. I find that fascinating.
• 35:34
  And it's just such a different thing from everything I
• 35:37
  currently do. What I currently do is I'm
• 35:39
  thinking a lot and acting. It's more instinctive and so
• 35:42
  it's a different part of your brain that you're accessing.
• 35:45
  So it's a random answer, but I've always been curious about
• 35:48
  acting. What do you think of the new
• 35:49
  Pope, Pope Leo? I wrote or I did a video of
• 35:53
  appreciation when he was first coming onto the scene.
• 35:56
  I think he I don't really know. I don't have a a real expertise
• 36:00
  knowledge. I don't really focus on like
• 36:02
  current events. So most of my work is on kind of
• 36:06
  the major historical structural issues, but from my impression
• 36:13
  was when I just looked into him was more more moderate and, and
• 36:20
  kind of just sane and, and just down the line on issues.
• 36:24
  And I appreciated that. And I thought, oh, this, this
• 36:27
  seems like it'll be intriguing to see where this goes.
• 36:30
  Are Mormons Christians? OK, all love to Mormons, but no.
• 36:35
  And they can be terrific neighbors and we can work
• 36:38
  together on social issues. But on for and I've, I've done
• 36:42
  some dialogues with Mormons and just explained my reasons why.
• 36:46
  And it would have to do with our doctrine of God.
• 36:48
  And we we just disagree on the fundamentals of the faith.
• 36:52
  And so we have some similar beliefs about Jesus, but we
• 36:55
  don't agree on who Jesus is and who God is and what creation is,
• 37:00
  the creator, creation, relation, salvation.
• 37:03
  There's so many down to the roots disagreements that
• 37:07
  unfortunately I have to say no to that.
• 37:10
  And what do you think is the most compelling argument for why
• 37:14
  someone who is not a Christian should be pro-life?
• 37:17
  If I'm in a conversation with a non Christian, I don't want to
• 37:21
  assume anything from where they're coming from.
• 37:24
  So I'm going to be asking some questions to see what common
• 37:26
  ground we do have. Someone might be coming from a
• 37:29
  very nihilistic place and that's going to be different than
• 37:33
  someone who has some latent Christian values where they have
• 37:37
  a more humanitarian vision of society, individual human
• 37:40
  rights, which many of our friends who are non Christians
• 37:43
  who live in the West will. I'm going to appeal to that and
• 37:46
  I'm going to basically make the same appeal that I did in my
• 37:49
  video on abortion of being a little bigger and outside the
• 37:52
  womb doesn't suddenly transfer rights or give you some kind of
• 37:58
  new qualitative status. Then when you're a little
• 38:01
  smaller and inside the womb, there's nothing that happens in
• 38:05
  that threshold that suddenly makes you into a person with
• 38:07
  rights. Therefore, if you value
• 38:10
  individual human rights, you should value it for all human
• 38:13
  beings, even precious tiny human beings who are totally helpless,
• 38:17
  totally innocent. And if anybody needs us to stand
• 38:20
  in the gap and stick up for them, it's the unborn.
• 38:24
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  prayer integrated into our entire lives.
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  Resource Center of your choice. That's Every Life dot com slash
• 39:56
  Lila. Do you see a trend of young?
• 39:59
  Men that are becoming Catholic and Orthodox.
• 40:02
  And why do you think that is happening?
• 40:05
  Yeah, that. Oh man, I think.
• 40:07
  About this a lot, I do see that trend.
• 40:09
  I'm often trying to discern how much is it just the online
• 40:15
  dynamics that make it seem so huge?
• 40:18
  But when I travel, I travel all over and speak, and everywhere I
• 40:22
  go, I ask about this, you know, how do you see things playing
• 40:24
  out in the these conversations? I think I can say everywhere I
• 40:28
  go, I hear anecdotally, yeah, what people are exploring.
• 40:33
  Sometimes it's like the ancient, like more liturgical Protestant
• 40:36
  traditions like high church Lutheran or High Church
• 40:38
  Anglican. Sometimes it's Catholicism or
• 40:42
  Orthodoxy. So that is, I do think we can
• 40:45
  speak of that as a trend or a movement.
• 40:47
  I am so fascinated sociologically, what's causing
• 40:53
  that. I wonder if part of it is the
• 40:55
  sense of the instability of the world right now and people are
• 40:59
  aching for something that feels rooted, that feels grounded,
• 41:02
  that feels like it isn't changing and bending with the
• 41:04
  times. I wonder if part of it is the
• 41:09
  Internet and there's just greater availability of
• 41:13
  knowledge. People can talk more.
• 41:15
  I remember reading one time in the 1900's the Archbishop of
• 41:18
  Canterbury and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, the
• 41:22
  head of Eastern Orthodoxy, didn't know who each other were
• 41:26
  and thinking, wow, in 200 years the technology has changed so
• 41:30
  much that we can talk so easily now.
• 41:33
  And so, and then for whatever reason, it's just, it's become a
• 41:36
  thing. You think of famous influencers
• 41:40
  and political figures who have converted or who are outspoken
• 41:45
  about their faith, and that causes an evangelical to say,
• 41:48
  oh, wait, I've heard this about Eastern Orthodox Christians.
• 41:52
  But what I gathered was a caricature.
• 41:56
  And whenever you're confronted with a real human being, it just
• 42:00
  immediately takes away a lot of the caricatures.
• 42:03
  So there's something going on. My experience in part has been.
• 42:08
  Morality, the teachings on morality.
• 42:11
  You know, when I was in college, I was learning about, you know,
• 42:16
  the history of abortion, the history of contraception,
• 42:19
  teachings on sexuality. And looking at, you know, the
• 42:22
  Anglicans bishops conference, right, in the early 20th
• 42:26
  century. And they decided which Martin
• 42:28
  Luther, John Calvin, all the Protestant reformers were 100%
• 42:32
  against this, were against contraception, right?
• 42:34
  As an example, certainly the Catholic Church for, you know,
• 42:37
  2000 years, you could say was against this and still is to
• 42:39
  this day very unpopular, by the way, because up until maybe even
• 42:43
  a decade ago, everyone's like pro birth control, yay.
• 42:45
  And now like the science is coming out that hormonal
• 42:47
  contraceptive contraception is harmful, etcetera.
• 42:50
  But that being said, learning about how the Anglican bishops
• 42:54
  made this decision that hey, actually contraception's OK in
• 42:57
  marriage, blah, blah, blah, and that was against the, the
• 43:00
  Protestant reformers. And then just tracing that and
• 43:04
  looking at the sexual revolution.
• 43:05
  And, you know, once you separate the procreative and the unitive
• 43:08
  intentionally by design, meaning sex is designed to bring life
• 43:11
  into the world. And then not, not all every
• 43:13
  time, but it has a potential, right?
• 43:15
  And then it is unifying of the spouses and you intentionally
• 43:18
  sever them. You you render this sexual act
• 43:21
  sterile by your own free will. You have this whole path that
• 43:26
  was really prophesized in humanity vitae by by a Catholic
• 43:31
  Pope that you're going to open the door to all of this other
• 43:33
  chaos. And that historically did
• 43:35
  happen. Sexual revolution inflamed the
• 43:38
  abortion rate more than anything, where you separate sex
• 43:41
  from life, sex from marriage certainly.
• 43:43
  And all of a sudden you get, you know, sexual chaos today.
• 43:46
  So I'm curious your take on all of that, how you see that and
• 43:49
  interpret that. I don't know if I've seen you
• 43:51
  comment on contraception. I don't know if that's something
• 43:53
  that you agree with the Anglican bishops on or you have your own
• 43:57
  developed moral moral philosophy on that or moral theology on
• 44:00
  that. But I'm curious your your take
• 44:02
  on that what you just raised as a very.
• 44:05
  Strong point and it's one of those issues where I can
• 44:07
  understand how people look at the Protestants and it seems
• 44:10
  like, and I'm not with the Anglican bishops on that.
• 44:12
  I have a video on abortion in the early church and I do see
• 44:16
  that it does get a little nuanced in terms of what was
• 44:19
  understood as contraception in each of those particular
• 44:23
  passages that I work through there.
• 44:25
  So I people want my full case on that specific issue.
• 44:28
  They can see that video, but I'm the main point of that video is
• 44:32
  just to say the early church was absolutely rock solid on being
• 44:38
  pro-life 100% and and it's just. Amazing how?
• 44:42
  I mean, from the Didake in the 1st century forward, they're
• 44:46
  Speaking of abortion as the sin of murder.
• 44:49
  And that was pretty consistent in the early church.
• 44:50
  So, so I can understand, so that's the main focus of that
• 44:55
  video. But I touch on issues of
• 44:56
  contraception a little bit. I can understand how people look
• 44:58
  at Protestant churches and it seems like sometimes there's a
• 45:02
  bending and some of that will be which Protestant churches you're
• 45:06
  looking at. And sometimes you you can look
• 45:10
  down the street and see this other Protestant church.
• 45:12
  I mean, because I've always grown up in churches that were
• 45:14
  pretty rock solid on these social issues.
• 45:17
  So I've actually had to grow and this is be one of those areas
• 45:19
  where I've had to learn to listen more and understand how
• 45:22
  someone else's perception of Protestantism.
• 45:24
  It's just different from mine. I grew up in Presbyterian
• 45:27
  contexts where the churches now I understand we're really
• 45:31
  healthy. They were pretty clear on issues
• 45:34
  like what we're talking about right now.
• 45:37
  They were pretty historically rooted and they were very
• 45:39
  healthy. I think the part of the issue
• 45:43
  where this gets complicated is there are other issues where an
• 45:48
  openness to change, an openness to revisit something has been, I
• 45:53
  think most of us today would see a good thing.
• 45:57
  And I talk a lot about the issue of slavery throughout church
• 46:01
  history as an example of this, where some of these evangelicals
• 46:04
  were making an appeal from Scripture, and they were arguing
• 46:08
  the Scripture must be willing to keep the tradition in check.
• 46:12
  And that was part of the explicit argumentation among the
• 46:16
  evangelical abolitionists like William Wilberforce, because
• 46:19
  unfortunately, there's a lot of sin in church history on an
• 46:22
  issue like that among Protestants as well.
• 46:25
  But they were making a scriptural case for that issue.
• 46:27
  So part of this will depend upon which issue we're talking about.
• 46:31
  Sometimes something comes into the grooves of the tradition and
• 46:34
  it lasts for a long time. But all Christians today kind of
• 46:38
  look at that and say, actually, that's not necessarily an
• 46:41
  infallible, immovable boundary marker.
• 46:43
  And I've talked about issues like this.
• 46:45
  Agustin had some views on women, on the damnation of unbaptized
• 46:49
  babies, on things like this that really did persist for about a
• 46:53
  Millennium. And yet Christians today would
• 46:55
  look at that and say, I don't know that we're in Catholics and
• 46:58
  Protestants for the most part, look at that and say, I don't
• 47:01
  think we're necessarily beholden to that.
• 47:03
  So I want to look at all the span of issues.
• 47:07
  And then what we're into, again, this gets complicated, right?
• 47:09
  We've got to figure out a way. But let me challenge my own
• 47:12
  tribe to say we evangelicals need to learn a lot from
• 47:16
  Catholics and others and some of the more traditionally minded
• 47:20
  Protestants on how easy it is to depart from tradition on an
• 47:25
  issue like the one you've raised here and not even realize that
• 47:29
  we're doing so. I mean, that's what breaks my
• 47:30
  heart the most to my academic work.
• 47:32
  My doctoral work is in historical theology.
• 47:35
  And I have to say evangelicals are weak in this area.
• 47:39
  So many times we depart from long standing Christian
• 47:43
  convictions and don't even know that we're doing that.
• 47:46
  I think that's really. One of the core questions about
• 47:50
  Catholic unity is obviously authority.
• 47:53
  Who is The Who calls the ultimate ball and strike on a
• 47:57
  moral question that isn't, you know, people can argue is not
• 48:02
  explicit in Holy Scripture right now.
• 48:05
  The person that is saying, well, no, Holy Scripture condemns it
• 48:08
  will make their argument. Then someone else will say,
• 48:10
  well, no, I don't, I don't buy that.
• 48:11
  So who calls the ball and strike between those two different
• 48:14
  Christians, right. And you know, in the Catholic
• 48:17
  Church, we have the mother church calls the ball and strike
• 48:20
  like you don't get to be a Catholic and say, well,
• 48:23
  contraception's OK sometimes or abortion's OK sometimes or
• 48:25
  transgenderism is OK sometimes or whatever it is.
• 48:27
  If you do, you are just in conflict with your own teaching
• 48:31
  authority, which you are free to be a heretic, you're free to do
• 48:34
  that, You're free to commit sin, right?
• 48:36
  But you are in conflict. And I think that was something
• 48:39
  that I'm curious about how you see it and how you tackle that
• 48:43
  as an Protestant, as an evangelical.
• 48:46
  When I look at Luther and Calvin and I read them on a myriad of
• 48:51
  issues, there are a lot of beliefs that they have that most
• 48:55
  Protestants today do not have. And one of them as a moral issue
• 49:00
  is the question of contraception and, you know, abortion.
• 49:04
  I think we're pretty united in a in opposition, which is very
• 49:07
  good. And yes, there are some, you
• 49:09
  know, Protestant fringe here and there that is still wishy washy
• 49:13
  on abortion. That does happen.
• 49:14
  But I would say there's a lot of strong Protestants who fight
• 49:17
  abortion and do a beautiful job, you included, of course.
• 49:20
  So I think that has been a good thing.
• 49:23
  But it on the on the issue of sexuality, of sex and its
• 49:26
  purpose, its design and marriage, that is another one
• 49:30
  that I, I think has, there's a lot of confusion around.
• 49:33
  So I'm curious what you think about Calvin and Luther's
• 49:35
  teaching on contraception and how you have developed your view
• 49:39
  on it. Yeah, I think, Well, let me
• 49:41
  first. Come back because I think you
• 49:42
  you were right on the money and speaking to the issue of
• 49:44
  authority. Now, let me say something where
• 49:47
  and I'm saying this not as a jab at Catholics, but as I put my
• 49:51
  heart on the table. Please do.
• 49:52
  Yeah, and I will not take. Anything as a job and I don't
• 49:54
  intend anything as a job. So I have so appreciate your,
• 49:58
  your your approach and your openness here.
• 50:00
  Thank you and and and this. Is in a spirit of see the world
• 50:04
  through my eyes for a moment So what can be put as a simple
• 50:09
  question what happens when the authority of a particular
• 50:14
  teaching apparatus within the church requires a sense to
• 50:18
  something that in your conscience you think is error
• 50:24
  and and in fact you may even regard to be it's not just my
• 50:29
  own private judgement that that's error died that is going
• 50:31
  against what Christians have always believed and so the
• 50:37
  product so I I think for Protestants the challenge of
• 50:41
  individual private errors you know departing even on something
• 50:46
  like abortion or transgenderism. I think most Protestants who
• 50:50
  have a high view of Scripture, who haven't just jettisoned kind
• 50:53
  of the supernatural basis for our faith altogether, I think
• 50:56
  we're pretty much together on those kinds of issues.
• 50:58
  And we would appeal to the Scripture as an authority.
• 51:00
  There is the danger, as you point out, of, you know,
• 51:03
  particular Protestant communions departing.
• 51:06
  But erroneous private judgement we would see as a less great
• 51:12
  threat than erroneous ecclesiastical judgement.
• 51:15
  And the dilemma that the Protestants were faith faced
• 51:17
  with in the 16th century is whether it be indulgences,
• 51:21
  whether it be other teachings about Mary, whether it be papal
• 51:24
  authority, purgatory, So many things we look at and we say we
• 51:30
  just don't think that is part of original Christianity.
• 51:33
  We think that came about later slowly throughout church
• 51:37
  history. And So what are we to do?
• 51:40
  We we have to follow, you know, the the statement from the
• 51:42
  apostles, we must obey God rather than men.
• 51:45
  I think that was the feeling, the sentiment.
• 51:47
  And so then all I know to do at that point is to go into the
• 51:51
  evidence. And this is what I try to do in
• 51:52
  a dialogue with Trent or and Josh or in other contexts and
• 51:55
  try to say, let's look at the data, the papacy, these other
• 52:01
  issues that separate us. Are they founded in the New
• 52:04
  Testament? Do they have early church
• 52:07
  historical support and work through things?
• 52:10
  I'm a Protestant because I don't believe they do.
• 52:13
  I really in my conscience, I want to follow Christ.
• 52:16
  And when I see the teaching of Christ in the apostles, there's
• 52:20
  so much that the Roman Catholic Church requires assent to.
• 52:24
  To give an example. You mean there's a lot of
• 52:27
  theological? Points that they require assent
• 52:29
  from you would theoretically if you were going to be considering
• 52:32
  becoming Catholic and you just cannot agree with is what you're
• 52:35
  saying correct? Of of course I mean that that's
• 52:38
  of course where why you are you have the platform you have and,
• 52:42
  and you have not assented or you do not agree.
• 52:45
  I, I guess I'm curious and it sounds like there's a lot of
• 52:47
  things which I, I, I had a sense that there were, and it would be
• 52:51
  very interesting to kind of explore some of them.
• 52:53
  I'm curious about the contraception one as an example,
• 52:56
  because it was very relevant to me and my experience of learning
• 53:00
  about morale, you know, Christian moral theology and
• 53:03
  what does the church or what does Jesus teach on this?
• 53:06
  And is there a, is there a way to discover this?
• 53:09
  And just looking at the inconsistencies in the last few
• 53:13
  100 years of Christians struggling with the errors of
• 53:16
  the day, because that's one of the challenges, right, is that
• 53:20
  there's errors that come throughout history and they hit
• 53:23
  good believers. And how are we to discern what
• 53:27
  is right and what is wrong? Obviously, we can sit down with
• 53:29
  our Bible. We can think it through.
• 53:31
  We can talk about it on podcasts or, you know, read books about
• 53:34
  it. But I think the moral guidance
• 53:38
  of the Church now for 2000 years has stood the test of time on
• 53:41
  core issues when others have faltered many times.
• 53:45
  One of them is abortion, of course.
• 53:46
  Another one is contraception. I think that that is the point
• 53:50
  of. Disagreement is, has the church
• 53:52
  had the Roman Catholic Church stood the test of time for 2000
• 53:55
  years on these issues on contraception and abortion, it
• 53:57
  certainly. Has, yes, I would agree.
• 53:59
  Yeah, yeah. But you know, I earlier I
• 54:03
  mentioned bloodshed, you know, that one of the teachings of the
• 54:06
  Catholic Church in the medieval times, that is it would be an
• 54:12
  example for me of what I would say.
• 54:14
  I don't trust this particular church because I see the Roman
• 54:18
  Catholic Church as a church, but not the church.
• 54:21
  And I would say this church with her teaching office, I don't
• 54:23
  trust her to be infallible in the specific way she claims is
• 54:26
  because there's many other moral issues where I think it's been a
• 54:31
  180. You mean the magisterium that
• 54:34
  you felt they? Contradicted themselves, yes, in
• 54:36
  the Magisterium, correct? So the.
• 54:39
  For example, you know the thing I just mentioned of the
• 54:42
  extermination of heretics and the medieval age and proto
• 54:45
  Protestants being burned at the stake and this was done with it.
• 54:50
  There are teachings about this topic that come in magisterial
• 54:53
  contexts. And then the issue of no
• 54:56
  salvation outside the church and the way Protestants were
• 54:59
  regarded back then versus now. I would say 800 years ago to
• 55:03
  now, it's about as clear of a 180 as I know how to locate in
• 55:08
  terms of just very clear teaching in magisterial contexts
• 55:12
  that you have to be Catholic to be saved and that heresy is the
• 55:16
  worst sin and must be exterminated and so forth.
• 55:18
  And that's a brutal part of our history.
• 55:20
  And then today, or it's much more ecumenical.
• 55:22
  And so I guess what I'm trying to say is on some issues I see
• 55:25
  consistency, but on others I see inconsistency.
• 55:28
  And I think for a teaching apparatus to be trustworthy, it
• 55:32
  needs to be consistent and kind of trustworthy across the board,
• 55:35
  not just on some issues relative to others.
• 55:38
  So we're into it now. I think I I I'd love to return
• 55:42
  to the. Contraception question.
• 55:43
  I'm curious your position on that.
• 55:44
  But to go with where you're what you're discussing now, which is
• 55:47
  very interesting and important. I think there's certainly been,
• 55:51
  you know, it's clear there have been abuses committed from
• 55:56
  Catholics, including Catholic ecclesial authorities like that
• 56:01
  is that is not something I would ever argue.
• 56:03
  It's it's a fact. And that means people that were
• 56:06
  bishops or even dishonest popes. This is part of the history of
• 56:12
  the Church. You know, one out of the 12
• 56:14
  Judas betrayed our Lord Jesus Christ in the most vicious way
• 56:18
  possible. It led to his crucifixion and
• 56:19
  death. All of this, all of that is
• 56:22
  true. But when you say magisterial
• 56:25
  context, I think that's really important because the Catholic
• 56:27
  Church holds that when something is spoken ex cathedra, then it
• 56:31
  is binding in matters of morality and faith for all
• 56:35
  Christians and it doesn't get contradicted five years later.
• 56:38
  Not like they teach, oh, abortion's wrong and then five
• 56:40
  years later it's not or something is wrong.
• 56:42
  Five years later it's not. So when you speak to magisterial
• 56:47
  context, that's, are you talking about a Pope making an edict or
• 56:52
  what are you referring to? Yeah, that would be one example.
• 56:54
  The other would be ecumenical. Councils like the Council of
• 56:56
  Florence, which is also regarded as infallible among Catholics
• 57:00
  and you've got as I'm curious on the heretic burning and then
• 57:04
  I'd. Love to hear on the on the
• 57:05
  Ecumenical Council front. Yeah.
• 57:07
  So maybe to start with. No salvation outside the church.
• 57:11
  So I have a couple of videos on this and I just have to be
• 57:15
  honest and say it looks to me like if I were to construct a
• 57:18
  sentence that said you have to be Catholic to be saved, no
• 57:21
  exceptions, I wouldn't know how to say it more strongly than I
• 57:25
  see it said. In a magisterial context that
• 57:28
  would be the Council of Florence, but also Unum Sanctum,
• 57:32
  a papal bull by Boniface the 8th I believe, which is often
• 57:35
  regarded especially at the end of its teaching, it's climactic
• 57:38
  sentence that you have to submit to the Roman Pontiff to be
• 57:42
  saved. That is often regarded as ex
• 57:45
  cathedra. And so you've got infallible
• 57:48
  teaching that you must be Catholic to be saved.
• 57:50
  And it even just, it qualifies it so much because at the
• 57:53
  Council of Florence, it's saying even if you are a heretic or
• 57:58
  sorry, sorry, even if you are a martyr, even if you are killed
• 58:02
  for your faith, you must, even if you have sacraments, you even
• 58:06
  if you get baptized, you must be Catholic to be saved.
• 58:10
  And so that's one of those things I look at and I say I've
• 58:12
  lost. I, you know, in all these
• 58:14
  discussions, of course there's intelligent people on the other
• 58:16
  side. So you listen to the counter
• 58:17
  arguments, but it really just feels like a 800 years go by,
• 58:25
  not a between Florence and Vatican 2.
• 58:28
  Because the point that I think it's a very serious.
• 58:30
  One that would mean Catholics are wrong and it's a it's one I
• 58:33
  take very seriously would be and Catholics are wrong.
• 58:36
  Meaning this whole idea of papal authority of the church guiding
• 58:40
  faith and morals for 2000 years is is not correct.
• 58:44
  And you made a comment how it may not be correct because you
• 58:46
  believe it's not correct because the Church once taught that
• 58:49
  heretics should be burned at the stake.
• 58:51
  I want to make sure I understood you correctly.
• 58:53
  Yeah. So.
• 58:55
  There are and I won't be able to recall the particular Pope that
• 58:59
  on this front. So there's two different issues
• 59:01
  here We're talking to 1 is no salvation outside the church.
• 59:03
  That's the one I just unpacked in my book what it means to be
• 59:07
  Protestant. I go through 2 examples of
• 59:09
  medieval teaching. I try to state this precisely,
• 59:13
  that heresy is the worst, it's worse than sin, it's the worst
• 59:19
  threat, and it must be burned. And that includes the burning of
• 59:23
  heretics. And so when yon.
• 59:24
  So what was the? Sorry, just to interrupt.
• 59:26
  Quickly here because the my understanding is there's nothing
• 59:30
  in the magisterium of the Catholic Church that says that
• 59:33
  heretics must be burned. There is certain magisterial
• 59:36
  teaching that heresy is very serious, but nothing that
• 59:40
  prescribes that they be burned. Even though there have been
• 59:44
  heretics who have been burned. It's different from saying there
• 59:48
  have the Church's teaching you need to burn heretics or has
• 59:51
  taught ex cathedra that heretics must be burned.
• 59:54
  I understand the distinct you're making, I think.
• 59:56
  I, I, I should not in a live discussion, I should not try to
• 59:59
  remember exactly the wording that I worked in my book.
• 1:00:03
  It's been about two years since I worked through this, but I
• 1:00:05
  think it is more than. The my recollection, I talk
• 1:00:09
  about this in chapter 3 of my book What it Means to Be
• 1:00:12
  Protestant. So if anybody wants to, hey, we
• 1:00:14
  have it right here. We have your book if we wanna.
• 1:00:17
  Look at this. I mean, our producer was reading
• 1:00:19
  you guys are on the. Ball all.
• 1:00:20
  Right. So should I look this up now or
• 1:00:22
  or if you would like to, if it's OK, you got the.
• 1:00:24
  Book handed to me SO. OK, so wow, you nice job.
• 1:00:29
  He's got it right here to page 51 where I say what must be
• 1:00:32
  grasped is that who's his execution was not a violation of
• 1:00:35
  medieval medieval Roman Catholic theology, but it's expression
• 1:00:39
  and I talk about Pontifistiates 13O2 Bull.
• 1:00:43
  Unum sanctum and the teaching there, but Unum sanctum, just to
• 1:00:49
  be clear, did not. Say that heretics should be
• 1:00:51
  burned. That's I think, an important
• 1:00:53
  distinction. Yeah.
• 1:00:54
  Heretics should be burned. Yeah, that's.
• 1:00:55
  Right. But it does say the Church has
• 1:00:57
  the authority to execute heretics, the the spiritual
• 1:01:01
  sword, which has authority over the temporal sword.
• 1:01:04
  So it was the teaching in magisterial context of the Roman
• 1:01:07
  Catholic Church that she possesses the authority to
• 1:01:10
  execute heretics even if it's not in line with what the what
• 1:01:15
  the civil authorities. Say I I don't think that's
• 1:01:17
  that's correct. The sentence I'm thinking of
• 1:01:20
  specifically. Is that the material sword,
• 1:01:25
  which is the sword of the state that is exercised at the will
• 1:01:30
  and sufferance of the priest? That's the spiritual sword, the
• 1:01:34
  church, and that the temporal authority is subjected to the
• 1:01:40
  spiritual authority, but it's not speaking about the capital
• 1:01:44
  punishment. Of non believers though, which I
• 1:01:47
  think is because it's certainly speaking about that in terms of
• 1:01:49
  because the whole idea of unam sanctum is that the church is a
• 1:01:52
  mystical body, Christ is the head, the Pope is the vicar of
• 1:01:54
  Christ. It's talking about how there is
• 1:01:57
  one Lord, 1 faith, one baptism. But it's not saying that the
• 1:02:00
  church should give capital punishment to heretics or non
• 1:02:05
  believers. I do think that is what it is
• 1:02:08
  saying. I mean, I'm open to your
• 1:02:09
  thoughts. But that's what the sword there
• 1:02:12
  is used for, and the temporal sword is what is wielded by the
• 1:02:16
  civil authority. And the claim in the text is
• 1:02:19
  that the spiritual sword wielded by the church has authority over
• 1:02:22
  the temporal sword. So you're interpreting sword
• 1:02:25
  there to mean capital punishment?
• 1:02:27
  I think it's talking about judgement.
• 1:02:29
  Judgement. I I don't I I I don't think.
• 1:02:32
  That's right, because you know, and I actually hear on the next
• 1:02:35
  page give a couple examples of other medieval teaching from
• 1:02:38
  Pope's Pope is innocent. The force 1252 will add extra
• 1:02:43
  panda, which which you've got here is the threat against civil
• 1:02:47
  authorities. If they fail to execute the
• 1:02:50
  church's command to execute the heretic, then they are
• 1:02:53
  threatened with excommunication. And that's so the sword there is
• 1:02:58
  for extermination of heretics. That is, that's the context of
• 1:03:02
  what I would, I think. And this is maybe one of the
• 1:03:05
  disagreements. Right, which we're coming to,
• 1:03:07
  which is the Church certainly today and certainly by other
• 1:03:13
  theologians and by many Catholics.
• 1:03:16
  The two swords is not talking about swords of capital
• 1:03:19
  punishment. It's talking about temporal and
• 1:03:22
  spiritual powers ultimately residing within, within the
• 1:03:26
  church. And I think that it is not
• 1:03:29
  making a reference to heretics or killing heretics or burning
• 1:03:32
  people at the stake or anything like that, although those things
• 1:03:35
  could be part of the behavior of certain Catholics.
• 1:03:38
  And I mean, there have been, again, heinous acts committed by
• 1:03:41
  Catholics. I mean, this is from, I think
• 1:03:45
  the papal. This is from Unum sanctum.
• 1:03:47
  We are informed by the text of the Gospels that in this church
• 1:03:49
  and in its power are two swords, namely the spiritual, the
• 1:03:52
  temporal, from when the apostles say, behold, here are two
• 1:03:55
  swords, that is to say, in the Church since the apostles are
• 1:03:57
  speaking. The Lord did not reply that
• 1:03:58
  there were too many, but sufficient.
• 1:04:00
  Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in
• 1:04:02
  the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of
• 1:04:05
  Lord commanding. Put up thy sword into thy
• 1:04:07
  scabbard. Both, therefore in the power of
• 1:04:09
  the Church, that is to say, the spiritual material sword.
• 1:04:12
  But the former is to be administered for the Church, but
• 1:04:14
  the latter by the Church. I think you just referenced
• 1:04:16
  that. The former in the hands of the
• 1:04:17
  priest, the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at
• 1:04:20
  the will and sufferance of the priest.
• 1:04:21
  However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other, and
• 1:04:25
  temporal authority subjected to spiritual power.
• 1:04:27
  Right, wield the spiritual sword.
• 1:04:30
  Wielded by the. Church, the clergy is not the
• 1:04:32
  executioner's block. It's doctrine, sacraments, and
• 1:04:34
  judgement. Right, but but, but what you
• 1:04:36
  just read explicitly says that the.
• 1:04:39
  Temporal sword is wielded at the will and sufferance of the
• 1:04:42
  priest. So the church, exercised through
• 1:04:44
  the the Church herself, doesn't kill the person through the
• 1:04:48
  civil authority at her request, and it is done with threats.
• 1:04:53
  So for example, here's Canon three of the Fourth Lateran
• 1:04:55
  Council in 12/15 quote. If a temporal Lord required and
• 1:04:59
  instructed by the Church, neglects to cleanse his
• 1:05:03
  territory of this heretical filth, he shall be bound with
• 1:05:06
  the bond of excommunication. So the church, but it doesn't
• 1:05:09
  say execution right? Because of the church has.
• 1:05:11
  Always held. It connects communicate and it
• 1:05:13
  does excommunicate, but that's very different from execution.
• 1:05:17
  The person being executed is being excommunicated.
• 1:05:20
  For failing to execute the heretical filth.
• 1:05:24
  If he neglects to cleanse his territory, that's the execution.
• 1:05:28
  So so sorry you're And what are you reading from?
• 1:05:30
  This is from the 4th Lateran. Council, which also uses the
• 1:05:33
  sword. Imagery.
• 1:05:34
  So just to be clear, the claim is that the Church has authority
• 1:05:38
  over the civil power. And so the civil power must
• 1:05:42
  execute whom she designates. And if not, the civil power is
• 1:05:46
  excommunicated, not necessarily exterminated.
• 1:05:49
  That's true. But she must herself exterminate
• 1:05:51
  the heretic. If not, she's excommunicated.
• 1:05:53
  So that's their, you know, I give a number of examples of,
• 1:05:58
  again, magisterial context. So I, I don't, I think from my
• 1:06:02
  recollection of this, the Roman Catholic historians are honest
• 1:06:04
  about this to say, yeah, that was the medieval teaching at the
• 1:06:07
  time. This is why this is an example
• 1:06:09
  of the kind of issue where I'm saying, with all love and and
• 1:06:13
  respect to my heart, knowing you, you, you Catholics do so
• 1:06:16
  much better on many issues. But this is one of those issues
• 1:06:19
  where I see a change from the medieval times to today.
• 1:06:23
  And I'm thankful for the change, but I don't see a kind of
• 1:06:26
  consistency across the ages. But you know, look, there are
• 1:06:31
  smart Catholics who have various answers to this.
• 1:06:34
  And so we don't need to resolve all this.
• 1:06:36
  But I'm just trying to explain. That's an example of where 800
• 1:06:40
  years ago to now the magisterial teaching of the Roman Catholic
• 1:06:44
  Church looks to me like it's not just slightly adjusted, but
• 1:06:48
  really done more of a 180. And the 2 examples I'm giving
• 1:06:51
  are the extermination of the church's authority to
• 1:06:54
  exterminate heretics and then no salvation outside the church.
• 1:06:56
  We can talk about this as much more as you want or move on.
• 1:06:59
  It's so I, I, I think it's actually incredibly.
• 1:07:02
  Important and I really appreciate you discussing with
• 1:07:04
  me because it sounds like this is a core disagreement question
• 1:07:11
  upon which hinges your distrust. Let's say a major serial
• 1:07:16
  authority, and I know there's others, but this is one of the
• 1:07:19
  significant ones. You would you would say home
• 1:07:21
  because I have such a soft. Heart for the martyrs and so
• 1:07:24
  Yonhoose people like that who were burned at the stake are are
• 1:07:29
  heroes of mine, but it's not the clearest and it's not the one
• 1:07:34
  that real. I mean, if I were to say the
• 1:07:36
  issues that for me make me I earlier I referenced I'm settled
• 1:07:40
  now that's also the case that I want to follow the truth.
• 1:07:43
  So if I change my mind, I'll I'll follow the truth.
• 1:07:45
  But when I say settled, it would be more issues like Mary Ology
• 1:07:48
  and and and papal infallibility, those ones, because I think the
• 1:07:53
  historical testimony is so clearly against things like Mary
• 1:07:58
  being bodily assumed to heaven. That's required teaching by
• 1:08:01
  Catholics. But with all, all respect and
• 1:08:04
  love, I, I think the evidence for that is overwhelmingly
• 1:08:07
  against that happening. I think the first 400 years of
• 1:08:11
  church history, you've got so many people teaching about
• 1:08:14
  bodily assumptions to heaven. And to the tune of about 20 to
• 1:08:17
  22 times, Enoch and Elijah are listed as those who are assumed
• 1:08:22
  to heaven. Never, as Mary mentioned.
• 1:08:24
  In fact, when Mary comes up, she's just spoken of as having a
• 1:08:27
  normal death, seemingly in the context.
• 1:08:30
  So so issues like that to me are the levermore decisively to say,
• 1:08:35
  I think Catholics can be amazing Christians that I look up to,
• 1:08:38
  but they their theology requires adherence to things that it's
• 1:08:45
  not like Gavin Orkland has some personal issue with it.
• 1:08:47
  It's just, I mean, as surely as I think Augustine was from
• 1:08:52
  Hippo, I, I, you know, as I come to reasonable certainty about
• 1:08:56
  certain historical claims, I just don't believe these other
• 1:08:59
  claims are in fact true that are required.
• 1:09:02
  So I need to kind of suspend my mind and stop thinking if I were
• 1:09:06
  to become Catholic, because I'd have to say, what do I do about
• 1:09:10
  the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception of Mary?
• 1:09:13
  I've heard the best. I've been in these conversations
• 1:09:15
  for years. I've heard the best cases on the
• 1:09:16
  other side. I just think the evidence is
• 1:09:19
  pretty overwhelming against some of these things being true, and
• 1:09:22
  yet they're required. And that's why I can live with
• 1:09:24
  Protestants who have many imperfections but have the
• 1:09:30
  possibility to reform the imperfections.
• 1:09:33
  That's the thing that is so brutal about when you claim
• 1:09:35
  infallibility. And then therefore it's
• 1:09:37
  irreformable. And so then you've got a
• 1:09:39
  teaching and you're just stuck with it until the 2nd coming of
• 1:09:41
  Christ and it's never going away.
• 1:09:43
  And that's where I hope my Catholic brothers and sisters in
• 1:09:46
  Christ could understand the vice grip they put on our conscience
• 1:09:50
  when they require a sense to these things, like the
• 1:09:53
  Assumption of Mary, the theology of indulgences.
• 1:09:56
  Another one that I'm pretty settled in my conscience about
• 1:09:59
  when that began in Church history.
• 1:10:01
  And I don't think it goes back to the beginning, just to kind
• 1:10:04
  of take one at a time and just back to the question of the
• 1:10:07
  heresies. You know, heretics and being
• 1:10:09
  burned at the stake. So I think to be, to be clear
• 1:10:11
  though, because it sounds like your, your, your biggest
• 1:10:14
  concerned with all this is you don't want to be bound by
• 1:10:15
  something historically that maybe the church taught that you
• 1:10:19
  would say, well, today the church doesn't teach it, but
• 1:10:20
  it's, it changed on it basically if it flopped on it, because
• 1:10:23
  today it's clear the Catholic Church doesn't teach burned
• 1:10:25
  heretics, right. But you look back on, I think
• 1:10:28
  you have to look back on and weigh the actual teaching here.
• 1:10:32
  The teaching that you were just speaking to was not saying that
• 1:10:35
  the church is mandating the burning of heretics, more that
• 1:10:39
  the church has the authority if it wishes to wield it to
• 1:10:44
  ultimately over the secular world when it comes to matters
• 1:10:47
  of faith and morals and the and today the church, you know very
• 1:10:52
  much and the church has always respected religious freedom,
• 1:10:56
  religious freedom of conscience. But for a heretic who is
• 1:10:59
  somebody saying specifically, I am Catholic and this is what I,
• 1:11:03
  but this is, you know, I, I disagree ultimately through
• 1:11:05
  them. I disagree with the Magisterium
• 1:11:07
  or whatever the church says it has and always said, has said it
• 1:11:10
  has the authority to say that is wrong.
• 1:11:13
  And then if you're living in a society where the, the
• 1:11:16
  government has the is, is actually creating law around
• 1:11:20
  what to do with heretics. And the church has said they can
• 1:11:22
  enforce that law. But I think that's different
• 1:11:24
  from you saying the church has changed its tune on the
• 1:11:28
  treatment of heretics or heresy because I, I, I still see the
• 1:11:32
  consistency. So what?
• 1:11:34
  What would you say is inconsistent about what the
• 1:11:36
  Church has taught? I'm not aware of anything in the
• 1:11:38
  medieval era that says every heretic must be put to.
• 1:11:41
  Death by the church or something like that.
• 1:11:43
  But the claim of authority over the civil power to do that?
• 1:11:48
  Most Catholics I know are not aware of that.
• 1:11:51
  Well, it doesn't wield it. Just because you have the
• 1:11:53
  authority doesn't mean you wield it.
• 1:11:55
  Doesn't mean you use it. So I think that's also very
• 1:11:57
  important, that one issue. I just brought that up because
• 1:12:01
  you referenced the sense. Of we need an authoritative
• 1:12:03
  guide for moral issues and that comes to my mind because I think
• 1:12:08
  what happened to people like yon who's was just so terrible.
• 1:12:13
  It's not morally. That's not a moral good guide.
• 1:12:17
  So that comes up in that sense. But if you want like an explicit
• 1:12:20
  contradiction, I would point more to the no salvation outside
• 1:12:23
  the church issue where it's just basically a not AI mean.
• 1:12:27
  If you want that kind of more explicit challenge, I think that
• 1:12:32
  would be probably a better example of that, yes.
• 1:12:34
  And I'd love to explore that. But I do think I just want to
• 1:12:36
  land the plane on the. Burn the heretics because again,
• 1:12:39
  the Church, including in the papal bowl that you referenced
• 1:12:43
  and in the council that you referenced, has never mandated
• 1:12:46
  the burning of heretics. And I think that's really
• 1:12:48
  important because the Church in her wisdom has always respected
• 1:12:53
  the freedom of 1's conscience. And ultimately, people need to
• 1:12:58
  have a free conscience in order to pursue truth.
• 1:13:02
  And that doesn't mean the church doesn't denounce heresy.
• 1:13:06
  It must announce heresy. But how it denounces heresy as
• 1:13:09
  well is going to change depending on historical context,
• 1:13:13
  governments, structures, you know, what's happening in in, in
• 1:13:16
  the life of the church. And there's a lot of freedom in
• 1:13:19
  that. Like the the Holy Spirit is free
• 1:13:21
  to inspire and help lead. And sometimes people are going
• 1:13:25
  to not listen to the Holy Spirit or they're going to follow their
• 1:13:28
  own maybe zeal or rage or political agenda and do bad
• 1:13:33
  things. And that's possible even in the
• 1:13:35
  name of faith. But that when you look at the
• 1:13:37
  actual magisterium of the Church, I don't see a
• 1:13:40
  contradiction. I think off the top of my head I
• 1:13:43
  won't be able to interact with that one way or.
• 1:13:45
  The other I can't remember in my research on this from about two
• 1:13:48
  years ago if there's an explicit teaching about the necessity.
• 1:13:52
  My memory is there is, but I can't remember if it's in
• 1:13:55
  magisterial context about basically the urgency and
• 1:13:57
  necessity of cleansing heretical felt filth.
• 1:14:02
  I brought that up because we were talking about the Church as
• 1:14:05
  a trustworthy moral guide on. When you say the church, do you
• 1:14:08
  mean the magisterial church or do you mean a Bishop or a Pope
• 1:14:11
  or? Even comments by, you know, a
• 1:14:14
  group of bishops, even, I mean, when you're in the US, we have
• 1:14:17
  well, exact, but defining that is important.
• 1:14:20
  For example, in the United States, we have the US CCB,
• 1:14:22
  which is the US Catholics of Conference of Catholic Bishops.
• 1:14:26
  Technically they could say something not not magisterial,
• 1:14:29
  right? And that would be magisterial
• 1:14:31
  teaching that the church has authority.
• 1:14:33
  To exterminate heretics combined with statements in those
• 1:14:37
  contexts about the urgency and necessity of doing so.
• 1:14:41
  And I'm referencing that as an example of why I don't find the
• 1:14:45
  Roman Catholic magisterium A trustworthy moral guide, because
• 1:14:49
  I look at that and I say that's not how we should treat
• 1:14:51
  heretics. And by the way, I'd say the
• 1:14:53
  exact same thing to some Protestants who have had a
• 1:14:55
  similar theology. So it's not unique to Catholics,
• 1:14:58
  but just to be very crystal clear is that there was not a.
• 1:15:01
  Specific temporal penalty that the church was commanding.
• 1:15:05
  The church was saying that the civil authorities had to fulfill
• 1:15:07
  their own civil authority penalties that they determined
• 1:15:11
  it wasn't that the church mandated certain penalties gave
• 1:15:14
  them to civil authorities said you go carry them out.
• 1:15:17
  The civil, I mean, burning at the stake was unfortunately very
• 1:15:19
  commonly practiced. All kinds of public capital
• 1:15:22
  punishment was very commonly practiced hundreds of years ago
• 1:15:27
  and to this day in in certain parts of the world, thankfully
• 1:15:29
  no no longer in most of the Western world.
• 1:15:31
  So it wasn't that the Church was saying you must commit this form
• 1:15:34
  or commit any form of capital punishment.
• 1:15:36
  I think that distinction, I care deeply about that distinction
• 1:15:39
  and I can't find, I know for a fact it doesn't.
• 1:15:41
  It's not there. The Catholic Church has not, did
• 1:15:43
  not teach in this council that there was a specific form of
• 1:15:48
  punishment that needed to be carried out by the temporal
• 1:15:50
  authorities, merely that the temporal authorities would be
• 1:15:52
  carrying out carrying out any punishment that that is a point
• 1:15:55
  of disagreement that it is. Execution by fire was a whole
• 1:16:00
  body of teaching. The whole reason fire was used
• 1:16:04
  was because of the specific theological claims about the
• 1:16:07
  nature of heresy. So execution by fire and then
• 1:16:11
  the destruction of all the body parts after the death is over
• 1:16:15
  was a part of this theology within the Church.
• 1:16:18
  You can even read but the count, just to be clear that there were
• 1:16:21
  bishops I like I said that have. Done heinous things or priests
• 1:16:24
  that have done heinous things and certainly Catholics that
• 1:16:27
  have done heinous things. One of the 12, of course, was,
• 1:16:30
  you know, left you betrayed Jesus.
• 1:16:31
  But the point I'm trying to make, and then we can move on to
• 1:16:34
  to another one because I don't mean to beat this dead horse.
• 1:16:36
  Beat a dead horse, but it's not magisterial, Lee commanded.
• 1:16:41
  I think it is because the language of burning by fire is.
• 1:16:44
  In magisterial context, and that was speaking about books.
• 1:16:47
  No burning the body. The burning of the body.
• 1:16:50
  Of the heretic to cleanse the earth of heretical filth is in
• 1:16:54
  Magisterium, and there's a command.
• 1:16:55
  You're saying there's a command in the Magisterium to burn?
• 1:16:58
  The bodies of heretics I I'm not finding that can you I'd love to
• 1:17:01
  and I know I don't know if we want to get Gavin a computer if
• 1:17:04
  you need to pull out a phone if you want to look for it in part
• 1:17:06
  of magisterial claim from UNAM Sanctum from the 4th.
• 1:17:10
  Lateran Council from the Council of Contact Constance is that the
• 1:17:14
  church has the authority to do that and then the historical
• 1:17:18
  instantiation of that occurs where it is done through the
• 1:17:23
  civil authority. And then it also in magisterial
• 1:17:26
  contexts, you have the threat of excommunication for a civil
• 1:17:30
  authority that does not act that out.
• 1:17:32
  So, you know, I think we'll have to agree to disagree for now to
• 1:17:36
  to move on to a next. Topic, but there is no Bishop
• 1:17:40
  commanding fire in the council, and the magisterium has never
• 1:17:44
  commanded execution of a heretic.
• 1:17:47
  So if someone listening can find where the magisterium has done
• 1:17:50
  otherwise, happy to review that. But it's never, it's never been
• 1:17:54
  part of the Church's master and respect.
• 1:17:56
  You keep saying that confidently, but with all.
• 1:17:58
  Of and respect. It absolutely is, and I've never
• 1:18:01
  can't find me the citation. Not not to be, you know,
• 1:18:04
  combative in any way. But I would like the citation.
• 1:18:07
  I've been asking you for the citation so I can see, because I
• 1:18:09
  it's a mystery to me because I'm looking through it now and I
• 1:18:11
  cannot see it. I'm asking what are you looking
• 1:18:13
  through? I'm looking through the the
• 1:18:16
  council. And.
• 1:18:17
  Any statements searching for any statements that have been made
• 1:18:21
  to indicate a Bishop commanding as part of Magisterium the the
• 1:18:25
  execution by fire any execution of Jan host or any heretic Yeah,
• 1:18:30
  and and although I'm not able to reproduce.
• 1:18:32
  Citations just on the spot at the top of my head from the
• 1:18:35
  Council of Constance specifically, I can tell you,
• 1:18:39
  and I've never heard a historian dispute this, that it was the
• 1:18:42
  specific decision of the Council of Constance to hand yon who's
• 1:18:46
  over to the civil authority specifically for his death by
• 1:18:51
  burning the burning of his body. And even if you wanted to try to
• 1:18:56
  say, well, you can't off the top of your head cite something from
• 1:19:01
  that council about the burning of his body, you can just point
• 1:19:04
  to a whole tradition of the practice of that and the
• 1:19:07
  theology of that in other magisterial contexts.
• 1:19:10
  I referenced the 4th Lateran Council and the threat against
• 1:19:14
  temporal authorities that neglect to follow the church's
• 1:19:18
  action, the temporal sword imagery from the from Unam
• 1:19:22
  Sanctum. So this is not really in dispute
• 1:19:25
  and it's what happened. I think it is in high dispute.
• 1:19:28
  I don't know of any name, any historian who.
• 1:19:29
  Takes that view. I mean the The Catholic
• 1:19:32
  Encyclopedia. Certainly does not.
• 1:19:34
  Say, and this is includes a body of, of theologians and you know,
• 1:19:39
  Catholic experts, you could call them that the council had a
• 1:19:43
  specific not just condemnation of John who's's heresy, but a,
• 1:19:47
  a, a, a command of civil authorities to burn him.
• 1:19:52
  And I think that that claim you're making is rather
• 1:19:55
  extraordinary. It's not one that's believed by
• 1:19:57
  Catholics or thought to be true by Catholics.
• 1:19:59
  It's not one I think that holds historically according to the
• 1:20:01
  council's teaching. And I think it's common
• 1:20:04
  knowledge that the Council of Constance.
• 1:20:07
  Act arrived upon this verdict guilty with the consequence of
• 1:20:12
  burning through the civil authority.
• 1:20:14
  Do you understand the difference between the consequence of the?
• 1:20:17
  Consequence of him being burned was not because the the the
• 1:20:23
  edict of the church was he must be burned.
• 1:20:27
  Do you see that distinction where civil authorities?
• 1:20:29
  At the time were burning people. They were, they were public
• 1:20:32
  executions, et cetera. It was, but that was not part of
• 1:20:35
  the language. And I, I disagree.
• 1:20:37
  I think we, we, we. We we may need to disagree to.
• 1:20:39
  Disagree on and that's fine, we can agree to disagree and people
• 1:20:42
  can look, but I don't see it in the in the in the council.
• 1:20:44
  I don't think either the the acts.
• 1:20:46
  Of the Council of Constance would take 3.
• 1:20:48
  Hours to read through. I'm sorry.
• 1:20:50
  I hope people read through it and don't take, you know, to, to
• 1:20:53
  to gather their own. Look into it.
• 1:20:55
  But I mean, even if someone wanted to say Oh well.
• 1:20:58
  The Council of Constance didn't specifically manage it, which
• 1:21:00
  they did. They used that language.
• 1:21:02
  That's a whole tradition of theology that they're drawing
• 1:21:05
  from. Even if someone wanted to say
• 1:21:07
  that, what did they think was going to happen?
• 1:21:09
  It literally happens immediately after, right outside the city
• 1:21:12
  gates. But do you see the distinction
• 1:21:14
  between, you know, as Catholics? A magisterium that stands the
• 1:21:18
  test of time in teachings on faith and morals, surrounded by
• 1:21:23
  governments, cultures right throughout time.
• 1:21:26
  That may change, and the magisterium remaining one way,
• 1:21:31
  and it can. It can be added to, but it can't
• 1:21:33
  be subtracted from. I think that's that is the, you
• 1:21:38
  know, a core part of our Catholic belief.
• 1:21:41
  And you're saying, well, you don't you don't buy that because
• 1:21:43
  of this, you know, horrific burning incident of John Host.
• 1:21:46
  And I'm trying to explain how the letter of the teaching,
• 1:21:49
  which you could apply today in terms of heretics are bad and
• 1:21:52
  must be mis excommunicated. Today's civil authority
• 1:21:56
  certainly would not do a public execution.
• 1:21:58
  And that's not something that the church is commanding.
• 1:22:01
  And I think that's the important distinction.
• 1:22:04
  Yeah, well, it's. Kind of fun that we've been able
• 1:22:08
  to just work through this OK, I'm not sure what to say without
• 1:22:14
  repeating myself. I, I, I just think that I would
• 1:22:17
  just encourage people watching this to just read through the
• 1:22:19
  Council of Constance read through what the bishops
• 1:22:22
  explicitly said read through the 4th Lateran Council Unum
• 1:22:25
  sanctum, other contexts where you see this read.
• 1:22:28
  It's not just Yonhus, it's many, it's the Waldensians and many
• 1:22:31
  others. And just I, I really don't think
• 1:22:35
  that this point is that much in dispute.
• 1:22:38
  I've not seen this questioned previously that much that this
• 1:22:41
  was the outcome, because everybody knows the, the, the,
• 1:22:48
  the framework is very clear. You've got the spiritual
• 1:22:51
  authority, you've got the temporal authority.
• 1:22:53
  The church claimed authority over the civil authority and
• 1:22:56
  used her as her arm for these things, threatening
• 1:22:59
  excommunication if they don't acquiesce.
• 1:23:00
  But the church didn't mandate how the civil authority would go
• 1:23:03
  about its business. And I think that's what's.
• 1:23:04
  Very important here alongside this, which I can understand, it
• 1:23:07
  would be a serious hang up of this is, you know, concern, I
• 1:23:10
  should say, with this idea of magisterial authority that there
• 1:23:14
  could have been, you know, severe mistakes made of people
• 1:23:17
  being condemned death. I mean, how?
• 1:23:18
  How horrible, right? In addition, you were saying
• 1:23:22
  that the other significant area for you was the idea that there
• 1:23:25
  is not salvation outside of the church, right?
• 1:23:29
  Yeah, that's another one. And.
• 1:23:32
  This is more yeah. So just to not ramble on about
• 1:23:36
  it that so the the context would be things like Onam Sanctum
• 1:23:39
  where you have the final summative statement there that
• 1:23:43
  you must it is imperative for every creature to submit to the
• 1:23:46
  Roman Pontiff to be saved or the Council of Florence.
• 1:23:50
  That's probably the more I could probably look it up in the book
• 1:23:53
  and read the exact wording, but it's pretty, pretty explicit to
• 1:23:57
  say everyone, even if you're a martyr, you must be within the
• 1:24:01
  Catholic Church to be saved. And then you compare that with
• 1:24:05
  something like Vatican 2. Now, again, I'm I'm familiar
• 1:24:08
  with how intelligent Roman Catholics look at this.
• 1:24:10
  They try to see it as doctrinal development.
• 1:24:13
  They'll try to look at the case of catechumens who they argue
• 1:24:17
  could be saved prior to baptism and so forth.
• 1:24:20
  But ultimately, it's just another one of those areas where
• 1:24:24
  it looks to me like you say, A, you have to be Catholic to be
• 1:24:28
  saved, 800 years go by and you say not A, and now you've got
• 1:24:34
  language about it's because Vatican 2 is much more
• 1:24:36
  ecumenical in terms of the boundaries of salvation.
• 1:24:38
  Again, I mean, I can give lots of concessions all along this
• 1:24:42
  conversation. I'm grateful for the change.
• 1:24:45
  I think it's good Protestants have also changed.
• 1:24:49
  Protestants have also committed horrific violence, so it's not
• 1:24:52
  like one of our traditions has a moral high ground to say you did
• 1:24:56
  this and we didn't. Well, and, and just to be clear
• 1:24:59
  again, as I've said many times, I don't think there's a moral
• 1:25:01
  high. Ground in practice of every
• 1:25:03
  Bishop, priest or Catholic layperson, because there's
• 1:25:06
  certainly be there's certainly have been plenty of rotten
• 1:25:09
  individual Catholics certainly, or even groups that might get
• 1:25:12
  together. But that's different from the
• 1:25:14
  teaching authority of the church being compromised.
• 1:25:17
  And I think that's, that's the distinction I'm trying to make
• 1:25:19
  because for example, a Bishop says something on X right now
• 1:25:22
  that's not considered part of the magisterium.
• 1:25:25
  I do appreciate that. I understand and to the point
• 1:25:27
  you're making about, you know, the.
• 1:25:29
  Church is salvation comes. Through Christ the head and his
• 1:25:31
  body, the church. Christ is the head and his body
• 1:25:34
  being the church. This isn't to say that there is
• 1:25:38
  not people in with sincere conscience and intention of
• 1:25:41
  heart, seek our Lord Jesus Christ and even begin to follow
• 1:25:44
  our Lord Jesus Christ. And before you know, this side
• 1:25:47
  of heaven never become Catholic and somehow they're they're
• 1:25:50
  condemned. The church has never taught
• 1:25:52
  that. And I think that's also an
• 1:25:53
  important distinction because when you say there's no
• 1:25:55
  salvation outside of the church, we're not saying that you have
• 1:25:58
  to be Catholic in this life in order to be in heaven one day.
• 1:26:02
  What you're saying is that the church is the one that
• 1:26:04
  administers these graces of our Lord Jesus Christ through
• 1:26:08
  baptism, through Eucharist, through confession, through,
• 1:26:12
  through the sacraments and the life of grace that you enjoy in,
• 1:26:15
  in the church helps you on our journey to heaven.
• 1:26:18
  So I, I, I, again, I think it's a might be maybe a
• 1:26:21
  misunderstanding about the church, what the church means
• 1:26:25
  when it says there is no salvation outside of, of course,
• 1:26:27
  Jesus Christ and his church. Well, what you?
• 1:26:32
  Just explained there. I appreciate.
• 1:26:35
  And I see that as contemporary Roman Catholic teaching.
• 1:26:38
  I think the disagreement is whether that is what a Roman
• 1:26:42
  Catholic Christian or Bishop or anyone would have said in, say,
• 1:26:46
  the 1300s. And so let me read a sentence
• 1:26:50
  from the Council of Florence. This is what I'm referring to.
• 1:26:52
  I just pulled it up in my book and just ask you.
• 1:26:55
  I mean, maybe I could just be civil just to ask you to say,
• 1:26:58
  can you understand how I am reading this rather than just
• 1:27:02
  say no, but you're wrong. And here's what it really means
• 1:27:05
  to say. Can you understand how?
• 1:27:08
  Because it seems pretty explicit.
• 1:27:10
  OK, so the sentence is the Roman Catholic Church firmly believes,
• 1:27:13
  professes and preaches that all those who are outside the
• 1:27:17
  Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and
• 1:27:21
  schismatics, cannot share an eternal life and will go into
• 1:27:26
  the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his
• 1:27:29
  angels unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the
• 1:27:32
  end of their lives. End Quote.
• 1:27:34
  And these are examples, right? It's not just a technicality,
• 1:27:38
  it's examples of what it says. But then sort of for 800 years,
• 1:27:44
  well, I'm not afraid for because there are some Jesuits in the
• 1:27:47
  early modern era who we have a different view, but for some
• 1:27:49
  pretty much everybody at that time, how it was interpreted by
• 1:27:52
  everybody. So yeah, this is one of those
• 1:27:55
  areas where I, I, I, I, you know, it's not the most
• 1:27:58
  important thing to me personally.
• 1:28:00
  It's just an example of where it looks pretty explicit to me.
• 1:28:02
  And I'm saying I don't, I'm not compelled to see the Roman
• 1:28:07
  Catholic Magisterium as a kind of consistent guide for 2000
• 1:28:11
  years. The way she was functioning and
• 1:28:13
  teaching, including in magisterial contexts 800 years
• 1:28:17
  ago versus today. They look like two different
• 1:28:19
  things. Yes, I and I see what you're
• 1:28:21
  saying and I can understand and I can understand.
• 1:28:23
  That perspective that you have that you know, on its face, this
• 1:28:26
  quote from this Council feels very different from saying,
• 1:28:30
  well, people may have ignorance or they may be seeking in their
• 1:28:33
  hearts sincerely and they might not have fullness of knowledge
• 1:28:36
  yet. And God sees all that and
• 1:28:38
  certainly God can and and the church has a lot of teaching on
• 1:28:41
  this, you know, today that you can look at that, you know,
• 1:28:43
  celebrates people who are earnestly seeking Jesus and may
• 1:28:47
  not fully have be living out, you know, the Catholic faith or
• 1:28:52
  have received all of our sacraments, etcetera.
• 1:28:54
  So I, I understand why that feels maybe as especially as a
• 1:28:58
  non Catholic, you know, someone who's not, you know, who's
• 1:29:00
  Protestant, who's self professed Protestant, that's kind of might
• 1:29:04
  sting even. But I think that the, the
• 1:29:06
  meaning there, which is understood by the church today
• 1:29:11
  is that the ordinary means of salvation through Jesus Christ
• 1:29:17
  is found through his bride, the church in the graces that he
• 1:29:20
  gives her. And that doesn't mean that he
• 1:29:22
  can't give graces otherwise. It doesn't mean that the Holy
• 1:29:25
  Spirit doesn't work in all different ways.
• 1:29:27
  And also, you know, baptism as an example is still baptism if
• 1:29:31
  it's done properly. This is an actual, you know,
• 1:29:34
  sacrament in in how it's done. And that's where a lot of
• 1:29:37
  Protestants are united with Catholics and baptism.
• 1:29:39
  But it's not that it's not to say that there's not a
• 1:29:42
  possibility of non Catholics to be in heaven or that even every
• 1:29:46
  Catholic is going to be in heaven because you could go
• 1:29:48
  unrepentant to your grave as a Catholic committing serious sin.
• 1:29:52
  That's definitely true. I mean, it's not at all saying
• 1:29:54
  all Catholics will be. Saved.
• 1:29:55
  That's so I definitely agree on that.
• 1:29:58
  When you said a moment ago that the meaning is it, it, it seems
• 1:30:03
  like what you're expounding is the meaning is what it's trying
• 1:30:07
  to rule out to me because it's saying nobody.
• 1:30:09
  And then it even goes on to talk about first, sacraments are only
• 1:30:13
  effectual if you're in the Church.
• 1:30:14
  Martyrs doesn't matter. You have to be in the church.
• 1:30:16
  So, you know, again, we might, I think we're just in, in these
• 1:30:20
  issues, we're going to have points where we bump up against
• 1:30:23
  something and we just have to kind of recognize we're, we're
• 1:30:26
  looking at differently. I think a point I would make
• 1:30:29
  apart from is there a technical contradiction here?
• 1:30:31
  Because those are, I don't know, you always want to try to leave
• 1:30:34
  room for harmonization wherever you can.
• 1:30:37
  But to me, it speaks to the value.
• 1:30:40
  So one of the things that's often said about Protestants is
• 1:30:42
  you guys don't have a kind of authoritative, trustworthy
• 1:30:47
  teaching office that can just settle things, right?
• 1:30:50
  If the issue going on is that everybody interpreted this one
• 1:30:55
  way 800 years ago, and then, you know, a few Jesuits start
• 1:31:01
  questioning it in the 1700s, I think run then, and it gets kind
• 1:31:04
  of cracked down upon. And then it's only in the 19th
• 1:31:06
  century that it really opens up. And 20th century now it's really
• 1:31:10
  open to me that pushes against and undermines this claim of
• 1:31:14
  what you need a teaching office. So that's not going to bend with
• 1:31:16
  the times because it just looks like it has been with the time.
• 1:31:19
  So I'm also making a practical appeal of, you know, the
• 1:31:23
  unchanging guide here. Looks doesn't look unchanging to
• 1:31:28
  me. And on some issues unchanging
• 1:31:31
  absolutely, but on other issues, no.
• 1:31:33
  And so that's I guess I'm there's the technical
• 1:31:36
  contradiction side of it. And then there's this other
• 1:31:37
  issue, which is how trustworthy is this?
• 1:31:42
  Because if, if you have a teaching office, what good is
• 1:31:44
  the teaching office if every single person misunderstands
• 1:31:47
  what it says? Because I, I don't know of
• 1:31:49
  anyone who explicitly said, Oh yeah, the proto Protestants can
• 1:31:53
  be saved or, Oh yeah, the Eastern Orthodox even, I mean,
• 1:31:57
  in the 1300s, they were regarded as they've left.
• 1:31:59
  They, they're not submitting to the Roman Bishop and they're
• 1:32:01
  out. There's, they're the
• 1:32:02
  schismatics. Even Thomas Aquinas, people like
• 1:32:04
  that had this very restrictive view.
• 1:32:06
  And so that that's the practical appeal.
• 1:32:09
  And I I totally understand what you're saying and I think that.
• 1:32:13
  I, I would actually just go point it back to it actually
• 1:32:15
  makes me grateful for and trust mother church more that in time
• 1:32:19
  when there's an abundance of question like, does this really
• 1:32:22
  mean that it's impossible to not be Catholic and end up in
• 1:32:25
  heaven? Is that really what this means?
• 1:32:27
  Because it's unclear. Does it really mean that?
• 1:32:29
  And the church in her wisdom says, well, let let's clarify
• 1:32:31
  this officially. No, you're that is a
• 1:32:34
  misinterpretation. It's not we're not saying that
• 1:32:36
  we have not been saying that. What we are saying is that you,
• 1:32:40
  the ordinary means of grace is found through Mother Church, the
• 1:32:44
  body of Christ as Jesus established.
• 1:32:46
  But God works in all different ways and he always has and
• 1:32:52
  always, you know, may always and you know exactly, you know the
• 1:32:55
  point as an example that you made about those who die for the
• 1:32:59
  faith martyrs, right, potentially as catechumens,
• 1:33:02
  right? They and they haven't received
• 1:33:04
  their their sacraments. They're not fully Catholic, Do
• 1:33:06
  they not do they not have a chance for salvation?
• 1:33:09
  No, of course not. The church clarifies, no, this
• 1:33:11
  is not what we're saying at all in the case of children, right?
• 1:33:15
  Does this mean that children are not baptized, don't go to
• 1:33:17
  heaven? No, we're not saying that we we
• 1:33:19
  don't know 100% where people land.
• 1:33:22
  We can believe and entrust them to the mercy of God.
• 1:33:24
  But I think my point is that the church has made when there's
• 1:33:27
  been confusion, understandably so, because there's also time
• 1:33:32
  and space and culture and, you know, governments constantly
• 1:33:35
  changing in a Protestant revolution, you know,
• 1:33:37
  reformation that happens. The church will speak into the
• 1:33:41
  confusion, including confusion that might even be about past
• 1:33:44
  Magisterium, to clarify. But that's different than
• 1:33:47
  changing it. OK, well, look, it's not to say.
• 1:33:50
  It's not to say the church has said.
• 1:33:51
  We were wrong. Let's cross this out and redo
• 1:33:55
  it. They're saying, let me explain
• 1:33:57
  this further and add to it so that we can make sure there's a
• 1:34:00
  fullness of teaching here that helps the everyday person and
• 1:34:03
  the questions that they might have.
• 1:34:05
  I appreciate what you're saying. I guess a question would be and
• 1:34:10
  by the way, parenthetical comment, you have no idea how
• 1:34:12
  honored I am to be having this conversation with you.
• 1:34:14
  So the thank you. I really mean that I for years I
• 1:34:18
  have. Followed your work and.
• 1:34:19
  Appreciated it for me to just to get to sit and talk this through
• 1:34:21
  with you. It's an honor for me.
• 1:34:23
  So thank you. I feel this truly.
• 1:34:25
  I feel the same way. I'm the kind of person where I
• 1:34:27
  like. Let's just, you know, hold
• 1:34:29
  nothing back. We'll just yes, and that's what
• 1:34:31
  we were talking about the beginning right, thank you,
• 1:34:32
  thank you. We we wrangle over this and then
• 1:34:35
  we're still friends at the. End of it, right?
• 1:34:37
  So united in the pro-life fight, in the larger evangelization
• 1:34:40
  fight of. Helping people understand who
• 1:34:42
  Jesus is and the reality of God, etcetera.
• 1:34:45
  So thank you, Amen. And you are my Christian sister.
• 1:34:48
  And so that's in my heart deeply we.
• 1:34:49
  Have so much we've been blessed with, so much with.
• 1:34:53
  Holy Scripture with divine revelation.
• 1:34:57
  What a what a gift, right? But to say that there is no
• 1:35:03
  other teaching that can be held by Christians to even interpret
• 1:35:09
  Holy Scripture, that's not my view.
• 1:35:12
  That's not your view. No, no.
• 1:35:13
  So would you say there? Is an authoritative.
• 1:35:16
  Teaching. That can be held.
• 1:35:17
  That interprets scripture. If I were to deny the Trinity,
• 1:35:20
  for example, I would. Be barred from the Lord's Supper
• 1:35:23
  at my local church because I violate our church's statement
• 1:35:26
  of faith, which has binding authority over my conscience,
• 1:35:29
  and I would lose my ministerial credentials.
• 1:35:31
  So that's your form of a church authority that.
• 1:35:35
  Is one well ministerial vows and individual church.
• 1:35:39
  Statements of faith are are two. So I guess I the clarification I
• 1:35:43
  want to offer here is that sola scriptura doesn't mean that
• 1:35:46
  there's no interpretations of scripture that function as
• 1:35:50
  binding. This has come up a lot on the
• 1:35:52
  Internet. So just to be for the small
• 1:35:54
  segment of the Internet that wants all the nuances here, that
• 1:35:57
  function, we're definitely in that segment right now.
• 1:35:59
  Gavin, that's a good point. We're way past.
• 1:36:01
  That I think everyone's. Like Lila we're this is not the
• 1:36:05
  usual thing. But this is great.
• 1:36:06
  So I'm this is awesome for people want to have these
• 1:36:08
  conversations. And again, I can't say enough
• 1:36:11
  that I think we. Need to, I think we need to, I
• 1:36:13
  think we just need to talk and just work it out.
• 1:36:15
  And then maybe a year from now we talk again and we keep
• 1:36:18
  talking. And over the years we can try to
• 1:36:19
  keep and and also I will say very clearly people, I mean
• 1:36:22
  someone like Trent. Horn or certainly Scott Hahn is
• 1:36:25
  far more knowledgeable than I am.
• 1:36:27
  I'm a work in progress. I am learning.
• 1:36:29
  I, I love to study this and learn it as best I can.
• 1:36:32
  But there's other I, I, I would not present myself on my channel
• 1:36:36
  as I am the most knowledgeable Catholic.
• 1:36:38
  We should have all the Catholic Protestant conversations on my
• 1:36:40
  channel. I'm just very happy to get into
• 1:36:42
  these conversations with wonderful friends like yourself
• 1:36:45
  and get into the weeds on it. So and you're doing a fantastic
• 1:36:48
  job and and everyone great everyone.
• 1:36:50
  Watching should say, should not say oh, who's winning the
• 1:36:53
  conversation and therefore I make a decision decision on the
• 1:36:56
  basis of that they say here's 2 Christians talking and I'm going
• 1:37:00
  to use this as a tool to learn and I'm going to investigate
• 1:37:04
  what I'm hearing and, and look at things because I think the
• 1:37:07
  Internet culture part of the bad side of it is the, you know,
• 1:37:11
  everyone wants their side to win but it's not about winning it's
• 1:37:14
  about we want to seek the truth together.
• 1:37:16
  And there's probably things and I've said in this conversation
• 1:37:18
  that are wrong, probably thinks we can both learn as we go and
• 1:37:20
  we're trying to seek Jesus here. But the point I was making about
• 1:37:23
  sola scriptura is there are what we call ecclesial rules, just
• 1:37:27
  meaning norms. So we call scripture the only
• 1:37:31
  norm that is not normed. So the other norms are normed
• 1:37:34
  norms. I told you this is gets nerdy.
• 1:37:37
  So it's just a relative authority.
• 1:37:39
  It's lower down on the pyramid scheme of authority.
• 1:37:41
  It's not infallible. It's not divine speech, but it
• 1:37:43
  still functions as authoritative.
• 1:37:45
  I get barred from the Lord's Supper if I deny the Trinity,
• 1:37:48
  but sola scriptura is the idea that the Scripture is at the top
• 1:37:52
  and it's the only infallible rule.
• 1:37:55
  So everything that happens in church history, I can even
• 1:37:58
  acknowledge the presence of the Holy Spirit working in all these
• 1:38:00
  different councils, but they're just not scripture.
• 1:38:03
  They're not divine speech, they're not infallible and
• 1:38:06
  therefore they're not irreformable.
• 1:38:08
  And honestly, it frees my conscience to say I'm going to
• 1:38:10
  seek the truth about church history, but I'm not pre
• 1:38:13
  committed to a certain set of councils to have to try to say
• 1:38:16
  these are infallible and irreformable.
• 1:38:19
  The only thing I want to make infallible is the Scripture
• 1:38:21
  because the only thing we possess today as the church as a
• 1:38:26
  rule is the Scripture. I don't think we have direct
• 1:38:29
  access to oral Apostolic teaching, for example.
• 1:38:32
  And so we're wanting to basically say God's unique and
• 1:38:34
  therefore his speech is unique. And so this is then this is the
• 1:38:39
  nerve center of it all. Catholic to Protestant is these
• 1:38:41
  questions of authority and where do we ultimately locate the
• 1:38:45
  boundary markers of who, what has the rights to determine what
• 1:38:50
  is obligatory Christian belief? And so I mentioned earlier
• 1:38:53
  things like, you know, certain beliefs about Mary that I would
• 1:38:57
  argue they're not only not in Scripture, they're unknown for
• 1:39:00
  hundreds of years after the closing of Scripture.
• 1:39:03
  And so I look at those and I say I don't think any church has the
• 1:39:06
  right to require a sense to those things when they come so
• 1:39:10
  late into church history. So Sola scriptura is the
• 1:39:13
  conservative instinct to measure Christian doctrine by what God
• 1:39:17
  has revealed. So I mean, I, I hear you.
• 1:39:20
  I think there's certainly things like for example.
• 1:39:22
  Human cloning, it's certainly not in any way in Holy
• 1:39:24
  Scripture, you know, a prohibit prohibition on human cloning.
• 1:39:29
  But I think I would say very confidently that we, we should
• 1:39:32
  fully reject human cloning. And I, I think we should have a
• 1:39:35
  church authority that says no Christians should fully reject
• 1:39:38
  human cloning. This is just as as one example,
• 1:39:42
  right? So I, I hear what you're saying,
• 1:39:44
  of course. And I, I understand this to be
• 1:39:46
  kind of the argument for sola scriptura.
• 1:39:48
  But I think at the end of the day, having authority does
• 1:39:53
  matter, including for the interpretation of Holy
• 1:39:56
  Scripture. And I understand you say, well,
• 1:39:57
  I do have authority, but it's, you know, it's submitted to Holy
• 1:40:00
  Scripture. And I could say the same thing
• 1:40:02
  as a Catholic, certainly. The magisterial teaching of the
• 1:40:06
  church is never going to contradict Holy Scripture.
• 1:40:10
  So in that sense, perhaps we are aligned.
• 1:40:12
  But the difference is your church or your Pope is a bit
• 1:40:15
  smaller scale and more more new in terms of the, the local one
• 1:40:19
  that you attend in, in, you know, Tennessee.
• 1:40:22
  But I think we both agree and Catholics would agree that and,
• 1:40:25
  and any Pope would say, well, Holy Scripture is my authority
• 1:40:28
  as the Pope. I'm not going to be denying
• 1:40:30
  anything in Holy Scripture, right?
• 1:40:32
  And I think we can agree on just loving Holy Scripture as you
• 1:40:34
  said you love Scripture. Loving Holy Scripture
• 1:40:37
  reverencing it receiving we but we have a similar view that it
• 1:40:41
  is inspired. It is the very words of God
• 1:40:43
  breathed by the Holy Spirit. Yeah, the difference one way.
• 1:40:48
  This is not the only way, but one way to locate the razor
• 1:40:50
  sharp difference is with the word infallibility to say are
• 1:40:54
  the authoritative deliverances of any church after the death of
• 1:40:59
  the apostles, whether through counsels or next cathedral
• 1:41:02
  statement from a Pope or other mechanisms.
• 1:41:04
  There are others as well. Are they infallible and
• 1:41:07
  therefore irreformable, meaning they're never going to get
• 1:41:10
  overturned? And that's where I think we can
• 1:41:13
  kind of locate I think so. I think the and that's so you
• 1:41:17
  would say then and so would you say the creeds?
• 1:41:21
  Are not infallible, yes. Not because infallible doesn't
• 1:41:25
  just mean it's like, really? Shaky, like if you say
• 1:41:27
  something's fallible, you don't, you're not just saying
• 1:41:30
  necessarily it is really uncertain and unstable, but
• 1:41:33
  you're saying it's not incapable of error.
• 1:41:35
  And even the Trinity, the teaching on the Trinity as we
• 1:41:38
  understand it, could be. Incorrect in your view because
• 1:41:41
  it's not explicitly found in Holy Scripture.
• 1:41:43
  Well, I wouldn't say that. I would say that a particular.
• 1:41:46
  Construal of the Trinity at a council is not infallible in the
• 1:41:51
  sense of incapable of error preserved by the Holy Spirit in
• 1:41:54
  the special guarding mechanism of infallibility.
• 1:41:57
  But I look at the New Testament, and I say right out of the words
• 1:42:02
  of Christ himself were baptized in the name of the Father, the
• 1:42:05
  Son, and the Holy Spirit. I would understand the
• 1:42:08
  subsequent reflection on who are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
• 1:42:13
  to be just an elucidation of what Scripture teaches,
• 1:42:16
  clarification and expansion. If there's a theme in the New
• 1:42:20
  Testament, I think the divinity of Jesus is one of those themes.
• 1:42:24
  It's so pronounced in Hebrews and in John and elsewhere.
• 1:42:28
  So but you're right. I mean, this is this is where
• 1:42:30
  there is a difference is do we regard the church's
• 1:42:33
  pronouncements, any of them after the apostles, as in
• 1:42:37
  themselves infallible, preserved from error.
• 1:42:40
  Now there are some Protestants who will say in a sense you can
• 1:42:43
  speak like that for certain councils, but in in terms of
• 1:42:46
  their own inherent nature, we just understand these to be
• 1:42:50
  human events, though the Holy Spirit's involved.
• 1:42:53
  But there's A to use the big words we say there's an
• 1:42:56
  ontological distinction between these and the actual words of
• 1:43:00
  God. And so the simple way to
• 1:43:02
  understand sola scriptura is to say God is unique, therefore his
• 1:43:06
  speech is unique. So measure the human events by
• 1:43:11
  the divine. But let me criticize
• 1:43:12
  Protestants. Just a just a quick
• 1:43:14
  interjection. I I think Catholics agree.
• 1:43:16
  With you to the point of, and certainly the Church agrees to
• 1:43:18
  the point of there's going to be no edict from Rome that in any
• 1:43:22
  way denies Holy Scripture. So I think it, it absolutely
• 1:43:27
  acknowledges the not sola scriptura in terms of we only go
• 1:43:32
  to Scripture as the only authority, you know, before
• 1:43:35
  heaven, but instead that it is absolutely foundational for the
• 1:43:39
  church, Holy Scripture and it's divinely inspired.
• 1:43:42
  And any and any sort of proclamation, you know, based on
• 1:43:46
  confusions or questions or goings on of, of any time or
• 1:43:50
  given space is ultimately going to be affirmed by Holy Scripture
• 1:43:55
  and would never deny it. Maybe I can give an example
• 1:43:58
  because I I I follow what you're saying there.
• 1:44:00
  And I don't think a contradiction would necessarily
• 1:44:02
  be the only issue that comes up at this point in the
• 1:44:06
  conversation. It would just be, do we regard
• 1:44:08
  an infallible status to obtain to these later deliverances from
• 1:44:14
  the Church, whether they're contradictory or not?
• 1:44:18
  So, you know, earlier I mentioned some of the Marian
• 1:44:20
  dogmas where I would just look at these and I would say I don't
• 1:44:23
  believe they are true. I mean, honestly, I just in my
• 1:44:26
  heart of heart, I just, I, I couldn't accept them because
• 1:44:29
  there's, I, I would say the historical evidence for them is
• 1:44:32
  overwhelmingly against Mary being assumed or immaculately
• 1:44:35
  conceived. I'm quick.
• 1:44:36
  I'm curious if you've if you've done this, this thing, It's kind
• 1:44:39
  of. Dangerous to do with God, but
• 1:44:40
  because he can sometimes take us surprising places.
• 1:44:43
  But have you ever asked God if it is true?
• 1:44:45
  Give me the grace to believe it early on in my studies.
• 1:44:48
  I not that exact prayer, but yes.
• 1:44:50
  I pray prayers like that. I really do feel like I have an
• 1:44:53
  open heart. Like, honestly, it I've changed
• 1:44:55
  my mind enough in life, I've also wrestled with challenges to
• 1:45:01
  my faith as a whole at such a deep existential level to where
• 1:45:06
  to the point where I've, you know, gone down and looked down
• 1:45:09
  the end of that tunnel and wrestled with the feeling of
• 1:45:13
  despair of what if I'm wrong? And so I don't think there's any
• 1:45:18
  resistance in me of saying, like, if I became convinced and
• 1:45:22
  yes, and I have great prayers, like, Lord, show me, you know,
• 1:45:24
  if I'm wrong, you know, show me that.
• 1:45:26
  But on the other side of those prayers, I'm still settled.
• 1:45:31
  And I, I don't believe those things have good reasons for
• 1:45:33
  them. And so that's the thing that's
• 1:45:36
  at stake with Sola Scriptura is can the church come along and
• 1:45:40
  make a pronouncement of something like the bodily
• 1:45:42
  assumption of Mary and require assent to that for from the
• 1:45:47
  faithful when there is nothing in Scripture about it and
• 1:45:52
  nothing for a long time after Scripture as well.
• 1:45:54
  I would say, well, they would say the fault, Mary being full
• 1:45:56
  of grace and. She ultimately is, you know,
• 1:45:59
  does not carry original sin as a preparing to be the Tabernacle
• 1:46:04
  ultimately for our Lord. In that sense, you can reason
• 1:46:07
  from that, the assumption. So yes, you're right.
• 1:46:12
  It's not like there's a, you know, a passage in Acts and then
• 1:46:14
  Mother Mary was assumed into heaven.
• 1:46:16
  That is true. But this idea that it, there's
• 1:46:18
  no one, there's no sort of basis for it in Scripture.
• 1:46:20
  I think the, you know, I, I would disagree with that.
• 1:46:23
  Well, inferential appeals can be made.
• 1:46:27
  You can say, well, this is what the Scripture teaches about
• 1:46:29
  Mary. She was the bearer of our Lord.
• 1:46:32
  And by the way, I'm only ever going to speak honorably about
• 1:46:34
  Mary. She's a great model of faith to
• 1:46:37
  us all. But the specific claim that she
• 1:46:39
  was assumed bodily to heaven, it's not just the absence of it
• 1:46:43
  in Scripture and the shaky nature of, in my opinion,
• 1:46:46
  inferential buildings to it, but the historical evidence for
• 1:46:51
  hundreds of years where you've got so many people saying,
• 1:46:53
  here's the people who are assumed to heaven, Enoch and
• 1:46:56
  Elijah, Enoch and Elijah, Enoch and Elijah.
• 1:46:58
  And then the first time you get someone who really investigates
• 1:47:01
  it is in the late 4th century. And I don't want to go on a long
• 1:47:04
  rabbit trail here, but basically suffice to say I make the case.
• 1:47:07
  I have a whole chapter on this in my book, and I make the case
• 1:47:09
  there. It looks like nobody had ever
• 1:47:10
  heard of this idea by 350 AD except outside the church.
• 1:47:15
  And then it slowly is coming along the way and the way it's
• 1:47:18
  described. Some of the texts were these
• 1:47:20
  narratives of her assumption to heaven are first mentioned.
• 1:47:23
  It's recognized to be a A. Later it's spoken of as a new
• 1:47:28
  belief. It comes about right at the same
• 1:47:30
  time as alternative beliefs about her end, namely non bodily
• 1:47:35
  translations to heaven, her body being preserved in a special
• 1:47:38
  place. So all these all these things
• 1:47:40
  that you look at and you say, if this was part of the Apostolic
• 1:47:43
  deposit, something that was actually happened in the 1st
• 1:47:46
  century, why would no one have heard of it for 300 years or
• 1:47:51
  something like that? And so that the reason I bring
• 1:47:54
  this up is not to try to score a point or something, but it's
• 1:47:57
  because This is why I value Sola Scriptura.
• 1:48:00
  I don't want my conscience or anyone's conscience to be yoked
• 1:48:03
  to something that doesn't have any basis in divine revelation.
• 1:48:07
  But it's just something that came about way after the fact,
• 1:48:09
  after the apostles are all gone, that they wouldn't have
• 1:48:11
  recognized. And unfortunately, this would be
• 1:48:14
  one example where I think there is that.
• 1:48:16
  And I feel pretty settled about that.
• 1:48:18
  I understand if someone's a Catholic, they're going to find
• 1:48:21
  a way to make this work, but I, I don't think that that is what
• 1:48:25
  the evidence supports. And if, if someone wanted to
• 1:48:28
  argue with that, I would just say, OK, you know, imagine if we
• 1:48:31
  had to argue for the resurrection of Christ and we
• 1:48:34
  didn't have any testimony about it for hundreds of years, we'd
• 1:48:37
  be in a troubled state. So I'm just giving that as an
• 1:48:41
  example of where kind of the structural nature of the concern
• 1:48:45
  here. We agree, we love Holy
• 1:48:47
  Scripture, we agree that God has spoken.
• 1:48:50
  So that's why just an example of an issue where I value sola
• 1:48:54
  scriptura is we're trying to keep Christianity tethered on
• 1:48:57
  those issues that the apostles taught, that Jesus taught, and
• 1:49:00
  that we're a part of divine revelation.
• 1:49:02
  I know it's a point of difference.
• 1:49:03
  I, I guess we're getting into just explaining it from our
• 1:49:05
  different sides here. And I'd be happy to hear any
• 1:49:07
  thoughts you have on that. Or we can land the plane on
• 1:49:10
  unifying points or whatever you want to talk about.
• 1:49:13
  Thank you, Gavin, I and I again, I so appreciate you having this
• 1:49:16
  conversation. And there's so much more to
• 1:49:17
  explore, like even on, on the Assumption.
• 1:49:19
  I think there is certainly historical tradition for the
• 1:49:24
  Assumption of Mary, the Dormition or the Assumption of
• 1:49:26
  Mary that goes back in the at least of the 4th century.
• 1:49:30
  So I know you said the first 3 centuries because that's your,
• 1:49:32
  your cut off there. But you know, Saint John of
• 1:49:34
  Damascus talking about it in the, I think 5th century.
• 1:49:37
  Is it, is it later in the 6th? Which century is that?
• 1:49:41
  It's the 7th century, OK, but you're.
• 1:49:45
  Right in the six hundreds or the. 7th century you're right,
• 1:49:47
  but I think it's. As early.
• 1:49:48
  As the 4th century. So this idea that it just came
• 1:49:50
  out of nowhere, you know, in the 18th century, like all of a
• 1:49:54
  sudden we're talking about something that's not correct.
• 1:49:57
  You know, there was a very much a.
• 1:49:59
  Tradition. In in the Church of not just
• 1:50:03
  Mary potentially being assumed into heaven, but certainly of
• 1:50:06
  Mary as mother of God and as his intercessor for us, etcetera.
• 1:50:09
  So, but we could probably do a whole episode just on that.
• 1:50:13
  And you know, you know, maybe I, maybe maybe we should do a round
• 1:50:16
  table. Actually, you're very, you're
• 1:50:18
  very sharp. So thank you.
• 1:50:19
  I mean, I, I know you spend your entire, you know, work and, and
• 1:50:22
  you've written this book on this and you've studied this in depth
• 1:50:25
  and I, I really appreciate that. I appreciate the openness of
• 1:50:27
  your heart as well and your willingness to talk about it
• 1:50:30
  with me. So candidly.
• 1:50:32
  I, I so appreciate and value this conversation.
• 1:50:34
  I hope we can keep these kinds of.
• 1:50:35
  Conversations going, I think we need more of this.
• 1:50:37
  Just again, like like we said at the beginning, we're being open
• 1:50:40
  and we're just talking, we're sharing, we have disagreements.
• 1:50:42
  We're talking that through. And like I said, it's awkward at
• 1:50:45
  times because of how much love and respect I have for you.
• 1:50:47
  I don't want to offend you. I don't want to, not at all.
• 1:50:49
  But yeah, but it's so awesome to be able to do that and.
• 1:50:52
  So hopefully this will serve. Viewers to just say, OK, these
• 1:50:56
  are important issues. I've heard these two different
• 1:50:58
  perspectives. Let me keep studying this, keep
• 1:51:00
  seeking the truth and hopefully we can keep talking as well.
• 1:51:02
  Of course, I would love that. And we'll have, we're going to
• 1:51:04
  have Scott Hahn. On the show in a couple weeks,
• 1:51:07
  who I would love for you to speak with.
• 1:51:08
  Have you talked with Scott before?
• 1:51:10
  I've never personally done so. I would love to do so.
• 1:51:12
  I know of him. That would be a privilege if I
• 1:51:15
  ever had the chance to do so. So yes, I'm going to when I
• 1:51:18
  speak with him, I'm going to ask him if he.
• 1:51:21
  Has seen your work before, but I would love to try to connect to
• 1:51:24
  the two of you. I know we have John Bevere here.
• 1:51:26
  And I don't know if I said on camera I was like, have you
• 1:51:28
  talked to Scott? Scott is someone that has been
• 1:51:29
  very just wonderful as a wonderful Bible scholar and a
• 1:51:33
  wonderful obviously Catholic scholar.
• 1:51:34
  So, but he comes from an evangelical background and was
• 1:51:37
  very passionately evangelical and he kind of had to
• 1:51:41
  disentangle and navigate many these things that we, you and I
• 1:51:44
  are discussing. So yeah, no, I hope I can get to
• 1:51:47
  know him and talk with him. Yeah, thank.
• 1:51:49
  You thank you so much, Gavin. It's been a pleasure.
• 1:51:52
  It's been. My my honor, thank you so much.
• 1:51:54
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• 1:51:56
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