Latest / Logosofia no Dia a Dia / How to Pick the Right Fish Tape for Ethernet
Transcript
- [Prompt] custom: For those who are looking at doing their own internal home wiring, like Ethernet runs, you think tha | Hosts: corn, herman [Response] Corn: Daniel sent us this one after a trip to a specialty electronics store. He went in for a fish tape — you know, the thing you use to pull cable through walls — and instead of grabbing one off the peg and leaving, he found himself staring down an entire aisle. Nylon, steel, flat, round, five meters to forty meters, some with attachment kits, some bare. He said it felt like trying to buy a toothbrush and discovering a hundred varieties. So his question is: how do you pick the right fish tape for running Ethernet, how do you match it to the cable, what should you expect to spend, and how do you actually use the thing if it's your first time? Herman: This is the moment every first-time DIY cable runner hits. You've watched a few YouTube videos, you've measured your runs, you've bought a reel of Cat six A, you're feeling confident — and then the fish tape aisle humbles you. It's this rite of passage nobody warns you about. Corn: The fish tape aisle is an ambush. You walk in thinking it's a spool of wire with a hook on the end, which is basically what a fish tape was for about eighty years, and now there's an engineering dissertation's worth of material science on the packaging. Herman: It matters, especially for Ethernet. Network cable is fragile compared to Romex. The twist rates inside Cat six and Cat six A are precisely manufactured to control crosstalk and impedance. If you kink the cable, crush the jacket, stretch the conductors — you've just turned your ten-gigabit-capable run into something that might fail certification at a hundred megabits. Corn: The tool you pick to pull the cable directly affects whether your network performs at the speed you paid for. That's the part most first-timers don't connect. Herman: The fish tape isn't just a dumb piece of metal or plastic you shove through a wall. It's the first variable in a chain that ends with signal integrity. And the aisle is bewildering because each variation — nylon versus steel, flat versus round, five meters versus forty — exists to solve a specific problem in a specific wall environment. The trick is knowing which problem you actually have. Corn: Most of the packaging won't tell you that part. It'll say "professional grade" or "smooth glide technology," which means nothing when you're standing in a finished basement trying to get a cable up two floors without snagging on insulation or hitting a fire block. Herman: The good news is, for probably ninety percent of home Ethernet runs, the answer narrows down fast once you understand what the materials are actually doing. And the cost is reasonable — we're not talking about a three-hundred-dollar specialty tool here. Corn: That's the other thing Daniel mentioned — he wants the cost breakdown. Because some of these tapes are eight bucks and some are fifty, and it's not obvious what the extra forty-two dollars buys you. Herman: Whether you need it. Which is the real question. So let's start with what a fish tape actually is. Corn: Go for it. Herman: A fish tape is a stiff but flexible wire or flat ribbon that you push through a wall cavity, an attic space, or a conduit. You feed it from one access point to another, then you attach your cable to the end and pull it back through. The "fish" part comes from the idea that you're fishing the cable through a space you can't see. The "tape" part is because the original versions were literally flat steel tape, like a long thin ruler wound into a reel. Corn: The basic concept hasn't changed much. What has changed is the materials and the attachment systems, because walls got more complicated — more insulation, more fire blocking, more cables already in there — and the cables themselves got more sensitive. Herman: The core tension in the fish tape aisle is this: you're balancing stiffness against flexibility, friction against protection, and length against maneuverability. And Ethernet adds a specific constraint — the cable jacket and the internal twist geometry are easily damaged, so how you attach the cable to the tape matters as much as the tape itself. Corn: Which is why the aisle exists. If every wall were an empty rectangular cavity with no obstructions, we'd all use the same five-dollar steel tape and be done. But walls are chaos. Herman: Walls are chaos. You've got insulation batts, horizontal fire blocks between studs, existing electrical and plumbing, junction boxes and nail plates. And you're doing this blind. You can't see what the tip of your fish tape is hitting — you can only feel it. Corn: The material choice is really about how the tape behaves when it encounters chaos. The two options are nylon and steel. Herman: They behave completely differently. Steel is stiff, holds its shape, and can push through tight spaces with authority. If you're going through conduit with bends, or pushing across a long horizontal span in an open attic, steel is fantastic because it doesn't buckle easily. But steel is conductive — a safety consideration if there's any chance of live electrical wire in the wall — and it can be abrasive. If it rubs against a stud edge or a drywall screw during the pull, it can scratch the jacket of your Ethernet cable. Corn: A scratched jacket isn't just cosmetic. If you compromise the outer sheath, you expose the twisted pairs to moisture and physical stress, and you change the dielectric environment around the conductors, which can affect impedance. Herman: Nylon, on the other hand, is non-conductive — a real safety advantage if you're not absolutely certain what's in the wall. It's more flexible than steel, which sounds worse for pushing, but in a wall cavity with insulation, that flexibility lets the tape snake around obstacles rather than jamming into them. And nylon is gentler on cable jackets. Corn: The tradeoff is friction. Nylon against drywall or wood has more drag than steel. And nylon against fiberglass insulation can be grabby. Herman: Which is where the cross-section comes in. Flat nylon tapes — the ribbon-style ones — are designed specifically to slide over insulation. They're wide and thin, so they distribute their weight across the surface rather than digging in. A round nylon tape has less surface area contact, which is great in conduit because there's less friction against the conduit wall. But in a wall cavity full of fiberglass, that round profile can snag and twist. Corn: Flat versus round is really about what's inside your wall. Round works well. And steel tapes are almost always flat, which is part of why they're good in conduit — they glide along the smooth interior surface. Herman: Then there's the length question. This is where I see first-timers make the most expensive mistake. They think, "I might need to do a long run someday, so I'll buy the forty-meter tape." And then they're trying to push forty meters of tape through a wall cavity that only needs eight meters, and the excess coils up inside the wall and creates a snag point. Corn: Or it coils up at your feet and you trip over it. Which I have done. Herman: You've done this? Corn: I've been in the room while someone else did it. I was providing moral support. From a chair. Herman: Of course you were. But the point stands — longer is not better. A five-meter tape is for short drops between adjacent rooms or between stacked floors. A fifteen-meter tape covers the vast majority of residential runs, like basement to attic or across a single-story house. Thirty and forty-meter tapes are for commercial spaces or ranch homes with long horizontal spans. Corn: The fifteen-meter range is the sweet spot for most people. It's long enough to go from a basement network rack up two stories to an attic and back down to a second-floor office, with enough left for service loops. Herman: The cost difference is modest. A five-meter nylon flat tape runs about eight to twelve dollars. A fifteen-meter nylon flat is fifteen to twenty-five dollars. Thirty-meter steel is twenty to thirty-five. Forty-meter nylon round is thirty to fifty. Attachment kits add five to ten dollars on top. Corn: For the price of two bad takeout meals, you can get a tool that'll last through multiple runs and won't destroy your cable. The attachment kit is where I'd spend the extra money, actually. Herman: I agree completely. The classic fish tape ends in a bare metal hook or a loop — you strip the cable, wrap the conductors around the hook, tape it up, and pull. That works for Romex because Romex is tough. For Ethernet, especially Cat six A with its tighter twist rates and thinner conductors, that bare hook can dig into the jacket, stretch the pairs, or pull the conductors right out of the connector. Corn: Even if it doesn't fail immediately, you've created a stress point. Six months later, your ten-gigabit link starts dropping to one gigabit intermittently, and you spend a weekend troubleshooting everything except the cable in the wall because you assumed the cable was fine. Herman: The screw-on or clamp-style attachments grip the cable jacket evenly around its circumference, distributing the pulling force across the jacket and the strength member — the ripcord or aramid yarn inside — rather than concentrating it on the conductors. For a fifteen-dollar fish tape, spending an extra eight bucks on a proper attachment kit is the best insurance you can buy. Corn: To pull back for a second: for a typical home Ethernet run through finished walls with insulation, the starting recommendation is a fifteen-meter nylon flat fish tape with a screw-on cable grip. That combination covers the most common scenario — pushing through insulated wall cavities without damaging the cable — and it costs somewhere around twenty to thirty dollars total. Herman: That's the thing Daniel was really asking — cut through the aisle, tell me what to buy. But before you buy anything, measure your actual path. Run a piece of string along the route you plan to take — up from the basement, across the attic, down into the target room — and add three meters for service loops and vertical rises. Don't guess. I've seen people buy a fifteen-meter tape for what they thought was a ten-meter run, only to discover the actual path was eighteen meters because of the way the joists run. Corn: The string trick is one of those things that sounds obvious but nobody does it. Everyone just eyeballs the distance and hopes. Herman: Then they're back at the store buying a longer tape and feeling foolish. I'd rather feel foolish with a piece of string in my hand than with a fish tape stuck in my wall. Corn: That's a life philosophy, really. Herman: It's served me well. So we've got the material, the cross-section, the length, and the attachment system. That's the buying guide. The next question is what you do when you're actually standing at the wall with the tape in your hand. Corn: The fish tape aisle exists because walls aren't uniform and cables aren't indestructible. That's the short version. Herman: The slightly longer version is that a fish tape is doing two contradictory things at once. It has to be stiff enough to push through resistance without buckling, but flexible enough to navigate around corners and obstacles. It has to grip your cable securely, but not damage it. And it has to do all of this blind — you're operating entirely by feel. Corn: Which is why the material choice ripples all the way to whether your network actually works. Most people think of cabling as a connectivity problem — does the signal get from A to B. But with modern Ethernet, it's a signal integrity problem. Cat six A at ten gigabits is pushing five hundred megahertz through those twisted pairs. The geometry of the cable — the twist pitch, the spacing between pairs, the dielectric properties of the jacket — is engineered within very tight tolerances. Herman: You can break that engineering with a bad pull. If you stretch the cable, you change the twist rate and the impedance. If you crush the jacket, you alter the dielectric constant around the conductors. If you kink it past the bend radius — which for Cat six A is about four times the cable diameter — you create a reflection point where signal bounces back instead of propagating forward. Corn: The fish tape isn't just about getting the cable through the wall. It's about getting it through without turning your ten-gigabit link into a one-gigabit link that fails mysteriously six months later when the seasons change and the cable contracts. Herman: That's what makes this different from pulling Romex. Electrical wire is forgiving — if you nick the jacket on a twelve-gauge Romex, you tape it and move on. Network cable is a precision transmission line disguised as a commodity cable. Corn: Which is almost a cruel design joke. It looks like something you can just yank through a hole, but it's actually a radio-frequency component that happens to come on a spool. Herman: The fish tape aisle is the place where that tension becomes visible. Every variation on that shelf is a different answer to the question "how do I move a precision RF component through a chaotic wall cavity without ruining it? Corn: Let's talk about what nylon actually does inside a wall. The non-conductive thing is the headline feature — if you're fishing through a cavity and you brush against a live Romex cable that some previous owner nicked with a drywall screw, nylon means you're not completing a circuit through your hands. But the subtler thing is how it behaves under compression. Herman: When you're pushing a fish tape, you're applying force along its length, and that force has to overcome friction from every surface the tape touches. Steel is stiff enough that you can push it like a lance — the force transfers almost one-to-one from your hand to the tip. Nylon is more elastic. Some of your pushing energy gets absorbed in flexing the tape itself before the tip moves. Corn: Which sounds like a downside, but in an insulated wall cavity, that flex is actually what lets the tape snake around a fiberglass batt instead of punching straight into it and compacting it into a blockage. Herman: Steel in insulation tends to do one of two things: it either plows through and tears the batt, compromising your thermal envelope, or it hits the insulation and stops dead because the tip catches. A flat nylon tape will ride up over the insulation surface — it's wide enough to distribute its weight, and flexible enough to conform to the surface rather than digging in. Corn: There's a Fine Homebuilding piece that tested this pretty methodically. Flat nylon tapes were dramatically less likely to snag in fiberglass-insulated walls compared to both round nylon and steel. The flat profile basically surfs the insulation. Herman: That surfing action is why I'd recommend flat nylon for almost any residential Ethernet run through finished walls. Most homes built in the last forty years have fiberglass or mineral wool in the exterior walls, and a surprising number have it in interior walls too, especially around bathrooms and bedrooms for sound dampening. Corn: The counter-case is conduit. If you're running through EMT or smurf tube, you want the opposite properties. The interior of a conduit is smooth, so friction is uniform. A round nylon tape minimizes contact area with the conduit wall, which means less drag. And steel's stiffness becomes purely an advantage because there are no soft obstacles to catch on — you can push it through multiple bends without it buckling. Herman: That's why the aisle has both. It's not that one material is better — it's that they're solving different wall geometries. The problem is the packaging rarely explains this. It'll say "ideal for residential wiring" on both the nylon and the steel, which is technically true because "residential wiring" includes everything from empty conduit to packed insulation. Corn: Then there's the length question, which interacts with material choice in ways people don't expect. A fifteen-meter nylon tape is manageable — the reel is compact, the tape feeds smoothly. A forty-meter nylon tape is a wrestling match. The longer the tape, the more friction accumulates along its length, and with nylon, that friction can become significant enough that you can't feel what the tip is doing anymore. Herman: At some length, the friction between the tape and the wall exceeds the tactile feedback you're getting through your hands. You're pushing, but you've lost the ability to distinguish between "the tip is sliding freely" and "the tip is jammed against a fire block and the tape is just coiling inside the wall. Corn: Which is how you end up with a wall cavity full of spaghetti. And then you have to open the drywall to retrieve it, which defeats the entire purpose. Herman: The five-meter is almost too short to get into trouble — it's for a single vertical drop from an attic to a wall plate, or between two adjacent rooms sharing a wall. The fifteen-meter is the workhorse. The thirty and forty are for when you know you need them — and if you're not sure, you don't need them. Corn: I'd add one more thing about attachments, because this is where the Ethernet-specific concern really crystallizes. The traditional hook-and-eye system works by having you strip the cable, loop the conductors through the eye, and wrap the whole thing in electrical tape. For Cat six A, that means you're putting all the pulling force on the twenty-three gauge copper conductors. Those conductors are solid core in riser-rated cable — they're not designed for tensile load. You can literally pull the conductors out of the jacket like a string out of a straw. Herman: Even if they don't pull out, you've stretched them. Copper work-hardens. A stretched conductor has higher resistance and altered impedance at the stretch point. Your cable tester might show continuity, but your network equipment will see a reflection point that degrades the signal-to-noise ratio. Corn: The screw-on grip clamps around the jacket and compresses evenly. Some have internal teeth that bite into the jacket material without penetrating to the pairs. The pulling force transfers through the jacket and the ripcord — which is literally designed for pulling — rather than through the conductors. It's a five-dollar part that prevents a hundred dollars of cable from becoming a hidden failure point. Herman: You can test this yourself before the real run. Take a scrap piece of your Cat six A, attach it with the screw-on grip, and pull it through a short section of conduit or a hole in a scrap board. If the attachment slips or the jacket deforms, you know you need to adjust before you're forty feet into a wall. Corn: You've got your fifteen-meter nylon flat tape, your screw-on grip attachment, and you're standing in front of the wall. Step one is not "start pushing." Step one is figuring out where you're actually going. Herman: Which means a stud finder and a non-contact voltage tester. The stud finder tells you where the fire blocks are — those horizontal two-by-fours between studs that exist specifically to ruin your afternoon. The voltage tester tells you whether the spot you're about to drill has live Romex behind it. And you use the voltage tester even though Ethernet is low-voltage, because walls are shared spaces. The previous owner, the electrician who wired the house in nineteen ninety-four — none of them left you a map. A non-contact voltage tester is fifteen bucks and it prevents the worst kind of surprise. Corn: I'd also add: feed from the destination toward the source. If you're running from a basement rack to a second-floor office, start at the office wall plate and push down. Pushing is easier than pulling through unknown obstacles, and you can feel resistance more clearly when you're feeding rather than retrieving. Herman: That's counterintuitive for most people — they want to start at the source because that's where the cable spool is. But the physics favors pushing downhill through the unknown. When you hit a fire block, and you will hit a fire block, the right response is not to shove harder. That's how you kink the tape or punch through something you shouldn't. You back the tape out, and you either use a flex bit to drill through the block from your access hole, or you cut a small opening in the drywall at the block and use an oscillating tool to notch it. Corn: Forcing a fish tape past a fire block is like forcing a drawer shut when it's jammed — you might succeed, but something is now broken inside the wall that you can't see. Herman: Then you've reached the destination. Now comes the part that separates a working run from a future service call: attaching the cable. Strip about two centimeters of the jacket — just enough to expose the ripcord and the pairs. Do not strip more. You're not making a termination here, you're making a pulling eye. Corn: The ripcord is the part most first-timers ignore. It's that thin string inside the jacket, usually nylon or aramid, that's literally engineered to handle tensile load. If you tie the ripcord through the eye of your attachment, the pulling force goes through the strength member, not the conductors. Herman: If your tape has a screw-on grip, you clamp it around the full jacket with the ripcord knotted inside the clamp body. The grip compresses the jacket evenly, the ripcord takes the tension, and the conductors just come along for the ride. The bare hook method — where you strip the conductors, loop them through the hook, and tape it up — that's how you get a thirty-decibel return loss failure on your cable tester. Corn: I've seen exactly that. Someone ran Cat six A through two floors with a bare hook, pulled the conductors loose inside the jacket, and the tester showed a return loss spike at about eighty megahertz. The cable passed continuity, so they closed up the wall. Six months later their ten-gigabit link kept flapping down to one gigabit. They replaced the switch, the patch cables, the NIC — everything except the one thing that was actually broken. Herman: That failure cost them a weekend and about three hundred dollars in unnecessary hardware. The screw-on grip costs five dollars. Corn: The other attachment mistake is speed. When you're pulling the cable back through, go slow and steady. Jerking the tape creates friction heat. On cheap Ethernet cable — the kind with a lower-temperature jacket material — you can literally melt the nylon sheath against a stud edge or a drywall corner. The jacket softens, deforms, and when it cools, you've got a thin spot that compromises the dielectric environment around the pairs. Herman: Lubricant seems like the solution to friction, but it's a trap for Ethernet. Cable pulling lubricant is designed for electrical wire in conduit — it's water-based and it dries. But if any of it wicks up into the cable jacket and reaches the RJ45 connector before it dries, it can leave a conductive residue that causes corrosion on the gold-plated contacts. For the short residential runs we're talking about, you don't need lubricant. If the pull is hard enough that you think you need lube, your path is wrong — back the tape out and find the obstruction. Corn: The last step that everyone skips: leave a service loop at both ends. About thirty centimeters of extra cable coiled neatly in the wall behind the faceplate, and another loop at the patch panel or keystone at the source end. That gives you enough slack to re-terminate if you flub a connector, or to move the faceplate six inches if you realize it's behind where the desk actually goes. Herman: Service loops are free. They cost you thirty cents of cable and they save you from having to re-fish the entire run because you cut the jacket too short at the termination. Corn: Let's talk money, because Daniel asked for the real numbers. A five-meter nylon flat tape runs eight to twelve dollars. Fifteen-meter nylon flat — which is what I'd recommend for almost any home run — is fifteen to twenty-five dollars. Thirty-meter steel is twenty to thirty-five. Forty-meter nylon round is thirty to fifty. Attachment kits add five to ten dollars. Herman: For a single home run, the fifteen to twenty-five dollar range is the sweet spot. You're not outfitting a commercial crew. You're pulling maybe four or six drops over a weekend. That twenty-dollar tape will still be in your toolbox ten years from now. Corn: Put it in perspective: a full home network retrofit with four drops across two floors — twenty dollars for the fish tape, fifty dollars for a reel of Cat six A, thirty dollars for keystones and faceplates. That's a hundred dollars total, or twenty-five dollars per drop. The tooling cost per drop is five dollars. Compare that to hiring an electrician at eighty to a hundred twenty dollars an hour, and you're saving hundreds of dollars for a Saturday of work. Herman: In most jurisdictions, you don't need an electrician for low-voltage wiring. Ethernet is classified as communications cable, not electrical. You can legally pull it yourself as a homeowner. The safety concern isn't regulatory — it's practical. You're working near line-voltage wiring, so you use the non-contact tester, you use nylon tape for the non-conductive property, and you don't drill blind. Corn: The nylon tape being non-conductive is the safety feature that costs you nothing extra. If you're fishing through a wall and the tip brushes a Romex cable that some previous owner nicked with a drywall screw, nylon means you're not the path to ground. Steel would be. Herman: That's not a hypothetical. I've opened walls where the Romex jacket was chewed up from the original install, with exposed conductors just sitting there next to the stud. A steel fish tape sliding past that is a shock hazard. Nylon slides past it and nothing happens. Corn: The safety checklist before you even pick up the tape: non-contact voltage tester on the wall, know where your fire blocks are, and use nylon if there's any uncertainty about what's inside the cavity. That's three steps that take five minutes and prevent the two worst outcomes — electrocution and drywall surgery. Herman: If I had to boil it down to a single shopping list for someone who's never done this before — and I think that's what Daniel's really asking — it's a fifteen-meter nylon flat fish tape with a screw-on cable grip. That combination covers probably ninety percent of residential Ethernet scenarios. It's non-conductive, it surfs insulation instead of snagging on it, and the grip protects the cable jacket and conductors. Total cost, somewhere around twenty to thirty dollars. Corn: Before you buy it, measure your actual path with a piece of string. Run it along the exact route the cable will take — up through the floor, across the joist bay, down into the target room — and add three meters. That covers your service loops at both ends and the vertical rises you probably underestimated. Do not guess. Guessing is how you end up with a tape that's two meters too short and a hole in your wall you can't close yet. Herman: The string trick takes five minutes and it's the difference between finishing the job on Saturday and spending Sunday morning back at the store buying a longer tape. I've been that person. It's humbling. Corn: Second thing: before you do the real pull, practice the attachment on a scrap piece of your cable. Strip two centimeters of jacket, tie off the ripcord, clamp the grip on, and yank it through a short test path. If the grip slips or the jacket deforms, you adjust now — not when the cable is forty feet into a wall cavity and the only way to fix it is to pull everything back out and start over. Herman: Starting over with a fish tape is demoralizing in a way that's hard to describe until you've done it. You're sweaty, you're covered in drywall dust, and now you have to undo everything you just spent an hour doing. Five minutes of practice prevents that entire emotional arc. Corn: Last thing, and this is the one most people don't think about until it's too late: if you're running multiple cables to the same location, pull a pull string alongside the first cable. Just a length of nylon mason's line tied to the fish tape alongside the Ethernet. Leave it in the wall when you're done. Next time you want to add a run, you tie the new cable to the pull string and pull it through without re-fishing. The string costs basically nothing and it turns a future two-hour job into a ten-minute job. Herman: That's the kind of thing that separates a professional install from a homeowner special. The professional leaves the wall better than they found it, with a path for the next person. The homeowner closes up the drywall and prays they never need to open it again. Be the professional. It's a dollar's worth of string. Corn: Here's the thing I keep coming back to. We're already seeing twenty-five gigabit and forty gigabit Ethernet in the data center, and the cable requirements are punishing. Cat eight is rated for two gigahertz, which is four times the bandwidth of Cat six A. The tolerance for kinks, for jacket deformation, for the slightest impedance discontinuity — it's vanishingly small. At some point, does the fish tape itself become the limiting factor? Herman: That's a genuinely interesting question. Because the fish tape hasn't fundamentally changed in eighty years. It's still a stiff thing you shove through a wall. But the cables are becoming precision instruments. Cat eight has individual foil shielding around each pair — it's practically a bundle of four tiny coaxial cables. If you crush that foil even slightly, you've created a reflection point at two gigahertz that your network equipment will absolutely see. Corn: Either we need fish tapes that are gentler than anything currently on the shelf — maybe something with a compliant tip that distributes force like a medical catheter — or we skip the problem entirely and run fiber. Herman: Fiber is looking more practical for the home every year. Pre-terminated fiber is cheap now, the transceivers are dropping in price, and you don't have to worry about ground loops or electromagnetic interference. Corn: The fish tape aisle might solve itself, not through better fish tapes, but by making the cables so sensitive that nobody wants to pull copper anymore. We'll all be running pre-terminated LC cables and the fish tape becomes a relic. Herman: Or someone finally redesigns it. I'd love to see a fish tape with a built-in tension gauge — something that tells you how much force you're applying at the tip. Because right now, the only feedback system is "this feels harder than it should," which is not a precision instrument. Corn: If you've got a fish tape horror story, or a clever hack we didn't cover, send it in. We might do a follow-up on the listener's guide to running cable — the stuff that doesn't make it into the buying guides. Herman: Now: Hilbert's daily fun fact. Hilbert: In nineteen thirties Seychelles, a colonial acoustic ordinance required that all public announcements be delivered at precisely sixty decibels, measured from a distance of twelve feet — a regulation inspired by Edo period Japanese sumptuary laws that restricted the volume of street vendors' cries based on their social rank. Corn: I have so many questions and I'm choosing to ask none of them. Herman: That's probably the right call. This has been My Weird Prompts, with thanks to our producer Hilbert Flumingtop. If you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review wherever you listen — it helps. We'll be back soon with whatever Daniel sends us next.