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Genesis 3: The Fall of Man – Innocence, Temptation & The Way Back to Eden | Beers with Jesus · Todd's World

• Todd: Welcome everyone to Beers with Jesus. Todd's World. Todd's here. Gary's here. Check, check, check. I think we're good. Yo, It's Carrie: Hello? Check, check, Go flight. you know, acceptable. Yeah. Todd: No, it's good. like the beauty of it. There's a lot of things I like about it. You know what he said today? This just bugs me. And this, I could hear this at any church. And it isn't a big deal. It's just, he said, well, what's our purpose? What are we trying to do as Christians? What would your answer to that be? Yeah, what would yours be? He thought everybody was on the same page. Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ OK. Okay. What would mine be? Well... I mean, we're supposed to be, we're supposed to be like creating more Christians. Well, yeah, mean, yeah. Todd: to get to heaven, that's what he said. And I just thought, god, I hate that answer. I don't think it's consistent. I don't think Jesus ever gave that answer. We're to know God. Like the reason you take the Eucharist every week isn't just in case you die this week. Like it's for here. And the thing is, I know he knows that. What bugs me is playing into Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Okay. Todd: the tropes that make people think, yeah, Catholics are just trying to work their way to heaven. I don't really think that's it, but I think it plays into it a little. Do you know what I mean? But that's a minor complaint. It's in, and I could, I could hear the same thing at any Protestant church or Baptist church or whatever. And I would think the same thing. think that's, that's not it. I just, that's not it. But, but again, that's that's a little, I understand where. Yo, It's Carrie: OK. OK. Yeah, I hear that. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Todd: we're dealing with, you know, whatever. They're trying to make it simple for people, make it easy, whatever. So in his way of thinking, I suppose that works. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. I was going say you can boil it down to a couple of main things, but okay. Todd: but one of them is not going to heaven. At least not based on the Bible. That's all I think. And I'm not saying that there isn't an afterlife, just Jesus never presents it as that. Jesus presents it like when we start to follow him, we're entering into life right now. We're entering into the kingdom right now. It doesn't begin when we get to heaven. Do you understand what I mean? That's not the goal. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. You just... Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Okay, that's where you're, that's where you're... Todd: That's where I go with it. And that's why it kind of bugs me is I just think, nah, I understand. It's a little quibble and it's nothing that would like be the end of the world. just, it bugs me as much whatever church I hear it from. Yo, It's Carrie: It's nothing that's going to fracture the whole church into two churches. Todd: No, no, no, no, no. I don't even think, I I think in the end, if we were talking and I said, the purpose is to know God, John 17, I think he'd be like, well, yeah, that's right. You're right. But to know God, that is kind of heavy. Whatever. I don't know. He'd probably go into something like that. You know what I mean? And I'd say, nah, maybe. mean, I guess, I guess, I guess in a way, but. Yo, It's Carrie: Did you stand up, throw your hands up in the air? No, no. Todd: Anyway, other than that no pretty good. Yeah, I thought it's pretty good. I thought it's homilies good I thought I enjoy the readings. I enjoy there There's a beauty to it that that I like that I just think is nice that And there's a focus. I will say this there's a focus on on Jesus that maybe you don't I feel like you don't get everywhere ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah, it is nice. Well, I was going to say, and I think a lot of people outside the Catholic Church, this is not a Catholic podcast, by the way. He is not a Catholic. I am. But we don't mean to harp on it. But no, just this is interesting. I'm glad to hear you say that because I think people outside the Catholic Church don't realize that. Yeah, we actually focus on Jesus. Todd: Mm-hmm. I'm not a Catholic. My daughter is though. Yeah, I never would have, I didn't think they would as much as, but I bet there's the way they structure the readings and the way the songs are and the way that everything is, well, I mean, I guess it makes sense. They're revolving everything around the wafer that they think is Jesus. So it, I mean, it makes some sense. You know what I mean? Like they're bowing and whatever to the altar. And so, I mean, they're consistent with it, but there is a focus on, regardless of how you feel about the Eucharist, there's a focus on Jesus throughout. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And a reverence. Yeah, it's I like it. I like it. Todd: You know what mean? That I like. So yeah, I do. like the, there's a beauty to it. And there's a, and when I said that to Lauren on the way home about, I said, you know, it's not getting out. She knew she's like, I know. And I said, it's not a huge deal, but you know, just something people say pastors priests say. I think that just, it's one of those things that are like little things that just happened to bug me. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Gotcha. Yeah. I know what you mean. Right. Yeah. I understand. Todd: It's nothing we're not and then I understand some people might think I'm splitting hairs a little. I don't think I am, but I just think let's focus because he is he's bringing it right down to here. But you're not trying to earn your way to heaven. You're trying to live worthy of the life that God that you're already entered into. Makes sense. And to the extent that's semantics, I guess maybe people some people think it's semantics, but. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Sure. Couldn't be. Okay. Todd: Anyway, that's my little, like I said, overall pretty good. The other thing I don't like about Catholic Church is that I'm not supposed to bring my coffee in. That bugs me. Yo, It's Carrie: good. ⁓ yeah. Todd: I really want to bring my cup of coffee in. Yo, It's Carrie: Do know what's funny? thought, I thought of that today. was like, I really wish that we could just have coffee in here. I thought of it. I thought of it too. That's really funny. ⁓ that's good. Todd: That's what I was thinking. But the things I like, I really like, and this is gonna sound weird, I like all the noise from all the kids. There's just something, there's a familial aspect to it that I enjoy. That's weird, you wouldn't think you'd enjoy it. It could be distracting, it could be all these things. But it's like we talked about last week, it's like I think that's the dirt of the life, the dirt of life that God's in. Do you know what I mean? And so I like that. I just like, I like that they've got these. Yo, It's Carrie: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: you know, these outreaches and all these things and they're just like, they're kind of down in it and they're, they're doing schools and you know, it's, it's real kind of community oriented. And so I do like that. Yo, It's Carrie: that the kids are there. Yeah. Real quick, were there first communion little kids there all dressed in white by any chance? Okay. Yeah, it's the first week of May usually. Uh-huh. Todd: No, they said something about First Communion this week for like second graders maybe and then like something about eighth grade. I don't know. I don't understand it. Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ them the first in first Sunday in May, but they actually must have too many because they did it yesterday morning apparently. And I'm like, ⁓ we didn't get to see them because watching them all come in dressed up is so cute. Anyway. Todd: ⁓ okay. Okay, cool. So anyway guys, that's us. That was our church experience today. Now we're gonna dig into Genesis three. What we do here on beers with Jesus is we just walk through the story of the Bible. Last week I thought was a great episode. I just, and I had some other people who really liked it. And I think that, you know, I don't know what would you call it? It's like anything that you do. Yo, It's Carrie: So big day today. Yep. Good. Todd: Maybe if you're writing, I'm a writer, there's times where you write it and you think, man, we hit that somehow. Or if you're painting, or it could be anything that you're doing. Yo, It's Carrie: Sure. It could be anything. You're like, I really crushed it. You felt like we crushed it last week? Or just you? Todd: I just felt like we, I felt like we hit it. I felt like we found, I felt like we found, what I felt like is that we communicated at least whatever, whatever that refraction we were seeing off that one kind of piece of, of God's eternalness. felt like we communicated it at least, you know what I mean? And that it was at least a good seed and, and, and I kind of feel like this is kind of a part too, cause I kind of feel like we're dealing with, we kind of talked a little bit about the fall last week with the trees. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Good. I hope so. Todd: And now we're going to get into it this week. So we use the message because the message is the best. And by the way, we also do Wildly Panini News Hour that drops on Tuesday. So that would have dropped yesterday. And you can find links to books and everything else at toddsworld.net. So check us out there every Tuesday, news hour, every Wednesday we do beers with Jesus. And that's kind of our weekly deal guys. So they're different, but I somehow, I feel like they fit. So for us, right. Yo, It's Carrie: Perfect. They do. Todd: Are you reading this week or am I? We're on Genesis 3. You reading? Or do want me to read or are you still on the injured reserve list? Because of... Yeah, but I'm fine reading if you're still, you know... Carrie has been struggling with a... some kind of a... a saliva gland issue. But that would be a problem if you're trying to read, you know, because if you... Okay. Alright. Yo, It's Carrie: I think, mean, did you read last time? If it's no, if it. I'm better. Yeah, no, I'm doing, I'm doing all right. So I can read. And so where are we? Todd: Genesis 3 I say we just do the whole thing you got it in you. Can you read the whole chapter? Carry the Catholic Yo, It's Carrie: Okay, I got it in me. I haven't looked at how long it is. ⁓ yeah, I got this. I could do this. Todd: I think you'll be fine. Yo, It's Carrie: All right, Genesis chapter three, you ready? All right. Todd: I'm ready. Yo, It's Carrie: The serpent was clever, more clever than any wild animal God had made. He spoke to the woman, do I understand that God told you not to eat from any tree in the garden? The woman said to the serpent, not at all. We can eat from the trees in the garden. It's only about the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, don't eat from it. Don't even touch it or you'll die. The serpent told the woman, you won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil. When the woman saw that the tree looked like good eating and realized what she would get out of it, she'd know everything. She took and ate the fruit and then gave some to her husband and he ate. Immediately, the two of them did see what's really going on. saw themselves naked. They sewed fig leaves together as makeshift clothes for themselves. When they heard the sound of God strolling in the garden in the evening breeze, the man and his wife hid in the trees of the garden, hid from God. God called to the man, where are you? He said, I heard you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked and I hid. God said, who told you that you were naked? Did you eat from the tree I told you not to eat from? The man said, the woman gave me, the woman you gave me as a companion, she gave me fruit from the tree and yes, I ate it. God said to the woman, what is this that you've done? The serpent seduced me, she said, and I ate. God told the serpent, because you've done this, you're cursed, cursed beyond all cattle and wild animals. He told the woman, He told the man, and ate from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from, don't eat from this tree. The very ground is cursed because of you. Getting food from the ground will be as painful as having babies is for your wife. You'll be working in pain all your life long. The ground will sprout thorns and weeds and you'll get your food the hard way. Planting and tilling and harvesting, sweating in the fields from dawn till dusk. Until you return to that Todd: you Yo, It's Carrie: grown yourself dead and buried. You'll start out as dirt. You'll end up as dirt. The man known as Adam named his wife Eve because she was the mother of all the living. God made leather clothing for Adam and his wife and dressed them. God said, the man has become like one of us, capable of knowing everything ranging from good to evil. What if he now should reach out and take fruit from the tree of life and eat? and live forever? Never. This cannot happen. So God expelled them from the Garden of Eden and sent them to work the ground, the same dirt out of which they'd been made. He threw them out of the garden and stationed angel cherubim and a revolving sword of fire east of it, guarding the path to the Tree of Life. Todd: Good job, Gary. Yo, It's Carrie: Thanks. Todd: ⁓ I was wondering about, ⁓ looking back, let me see here what we've got. ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: did this and then we fail. was looking at your mom's, was thinking of the, of the people, the, your mom and Darrell and Andrew Alexander and Patrick. Yeah. Just, just people's summaries of it. And I thought, yeah, I think, I think we were all kind of on the same page that, that God created. put, he put man, you know, he creates this entire world for man. Last, last week we're talking about, we kind of presented maybe a little different. Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ the retelling. Todd: ⁓ story, God's still creating, but God like in his workshop, like creating the cardinal, right? One by one and bringing them to man and just being, just delighting in man, man delighting in God's creation. You know, there's just a relationship. God's created, there's a love between them flowing. You know what I mean? And then God creates woman and then you've got this relationship between the man and the woman. And Yo, It's Carrie: Mm hmm. All right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: God's coming down and he's walking with them in the cool of the evening. They're just spending time together. God's spending time in his creation. Man is spending time with his God. And he's just getting to know what I complained about earlier. That eternal life is to know God. He's getting to know God. He's experiencing eternal life. You know what I mean? ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. getting to know is to know God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: And then that freaking crafty clever serpent man, what's he all about? God must've created him too. God must've created Satan too, right? Without God, nothing was made that was made. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: What do you think? I mean, after what we talked about last week and everything, then you see this serpent coming on. Do you think that Eve, do you think the serpent kind of knew that Eve was the weak link? You think Eve was the weak link? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. I think it could have gone either way. I do. I do. And that's not because I'm a woman. I'm not all offended that Eve is the first one to screw up. But people make jokes about that. I just. Todd: Do ya? No, I know. Yo, It's Carrie: I just think, you know, he's described as clever. ⁓ I think the thing that's interesting is, you know, God knows what's best for us. And we, through our own, you know, our own interests and our lack of understanding, we think we know what's best for us. And what's interesting is knowing everything sounds like a good thing. The serpent tells Eve, You'll know everything. You'll know good from evil. It's like, I'm assuming that there was no knowledge of evil. She probably didn't even know what evil was. I'm kind of guessing that. They didn't even know it. Right. So they don't even know what evil is, but the idea of knowing everything sounds good. He makes it sound good. And we all think, you know, more is more, but I think, imagine, imagine if this, there was like nothing, no evil presence whatsoever. Todd: Well, that appears to be the story, I think. Yo, It's Carrie: No evil thoughts, no evil influences, nothing. Todd: Well, obviously it evil influences. Yeah. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah, I know. But you know what I mean? But they were like unaware, blissfully unaware. It's kind of like, kind of like little kids playing before they realize all the dangers in the world. It's kind of like that. Todd: Little kids, ⁓ that's a good picture of it. Because you know, Jesus tells us that if we're gonna come to Him, if we're gonna enter the kingdom of God, we have to become like little children again. We have to be born again and have that kind of wonder of little kids. So I feel like in every sense, God's trying to return Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: Bring us back to Eden. But bring us back to Eden not quite, not as innocent. Well, not innocent, not bring us back to, in other words, we were first putting in Eden and we were innocent. As we come back, we're not innocent, we're forgiven. And, and we'll always, I suspect we're always going to remember that because Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Okay, yep. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. We're redeemed. Todd: That tree of life suddenly is going to be Christ's cross. It's just Christ. And it's just this continual giving. And I suspect that the saved and the redeemed will remember where they came from. Do know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. I think you're right. You, okay, so you were just saying the tree of life, and I just remembered that the gospel reading today is when Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And it's like, so the tree of life, I mean, it makes sense. I think that's such a beautiful, yeah. Todd: Yeah, I remember that too. Back to Eden. He's the way to what? He's the way to the kingdom of God. He's the way back to Eden. I think both those things are the same thing. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: But it won't be Eden exactly like it was. It'll be a little different because again, we're not innocent. Now, no any longer we're forgiven. We're redeemed. We're transformed. You know what I mean? And so how will that be different? Well, I doubt we'll know till we get to figure, you know, progressively as we get into it, but. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. I mean, I imagine too, another aspect of this is that in that state, so in the innocent state that Adam and Eve were in, and when we are transformed, like you said, I think that we will then see ourselves the way God sees us as His creation. And we don't see that. You know, they were suddenly embarrassed. Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, It's Carrie: and ashamed of their bodies. And it's like, God doesn't view us that way, you know? Todd: Yeah. No, I thought it was interesting too, is that the details of the temptation, because to some extent this is, I mean, it's the story of the original temptation, but I think in being that it's the story of all temptation. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Representative of like, I mean, it's like the template. It's the template for temptation. Todd: Yeah, like this is... Yes, perfect. That's what I think. And it can look a lot different and it can be applied differently, but I think in the end, most of it comes down to kind of what we see at play here. And the first thing the serpent does is he draws her attention to the tree. In other words, it's part of the garden. She knows it's there. She knows she's not supposed to... Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: eat it now god never said don't touch it but it's god also told adam maybe adam communicated to eve and listen if you were adam and eve it's not unreasonable to think don't don't even get by don't go touch it you know what i mean you we can't eat the fruit there's no reason to be over there fondling the fruit do you know what i mean Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think, well, at least in this translation, he does say not to touch it. Todd: Well no, Eve says that. Yo, It's Carrie: Right, but I think God said it earlier. I do, because I didn't remember that and it stood out to me. Hold on. Todd: ⁓ you do? Let's look. c the message just says you can eat from a tree in the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and evil don't eat from at the moment you eat from that tree you're dead Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Todd: ⁓ so there's a couple of things that happen. ⁓ he, the serpent comes for, first of all, I think it's, it's Christian tradition that the serpent was in somehow representing or, or Satan, right? The, great adversary, I think is, is it's, it's how it's always been presented. Doesn't exactly say that here. There's a couple of times throughout the new Testament where it talks about, ⁓ that old snake. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: And it's referencing Satan, poetical usually, but still I think generally tradition would have us believe that this was Satan's first tinkering, first kind of the first kind of wrench that he threw into God's creation. Right. So what the snake does is he draws it to her first. So first he wants her focusing on it. Right. He wants her, he wants her thinking about it. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: And he wants her attention focused on it. And whether you eat or touch or whatever, the point is he's got it. He's got her attention shifted from Christ from the tree of life to independent to being just like God. Like we talked about last week, independence, dependence versus independence. And then the snake broadens God's prohibitions. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. independence. ⁓ Todd: So not only is our attention drawn to the thing which God tells us, that's not the door you want, but in addition to that, the devil, Satan, starts to tell us, listen, look at all that God's preventing you from. And he widens that out. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm, right. Todd: Is it true God said you can't eat from any trees in the garden? That wasn't true at all. He knew that wasn't true. But that doesn't matter because what he's trying to do is he's trying to take the prohibition and make it bigger and focus on the temptation. Does that make sense? Yo, It's Carrie: Do you think it's his way of making it seem smaller? Like, ⁓ no, no, no, it's just this. And it makes almost, it's almost like she in her own words made it sound like a smaller thing. Todd: I do think that. Right, I think that's part of it. And I think also, also it's starting to, he wants to get in right away and start to mess with the idea of God. God's just out to screw you. God just doesn't want you to know what he knows. Now he's gonna get detailed on that, but it starts with, is he really not wanting you to eat anything in here? I why the hell did he put you here? Yo, It's Carrie: interesting. ⁓ it's just it's just one tree. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Todd: Right. And, and remember he was innocent and, and, and you kind of go from there, but yeah, he narrows and he focuses that temptation and then you get this in any, any promises or something that I guess in a way is true when he says you'll be just like God. She saw, she realized what she'd get out of it. She'd know everything. She'd be just like God. She would no longer have to depend Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: on God because what if God stopped doing it? What if he just decided to stop sustaining us one day? Well then we're dead. We're gone. Well God already told you that's the way to die. You know what I mean? But we don't think that. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. think too, it's such a tiny line, but ⁓ saying that she, you know, saying that she saw the tree and it looked like good eating. I feel like that's such a small little piece of this thought process, but I feel like that we so, we will so quickly justify. Todd: Mm-hmm. Yo, It's Carrie: you know, temptation will justify like, ⁓ well, this will give a good read. Well, this would be good because X, Y, Z. She's like, well, this tree looks good. How bad can it be? If it looks like it's good eating, why would it be harmful? You know, that's all happening. Todd: ⁓ yeah. Right. If a chick's that hot, why wouldn't I bang her whether she's my wife or not? She looks like good eatin'. I mean, that's the same temptation, right? Yo, It's Carrie: Exactly. It is. And I was going to say it's the flip side of the independence. It's that just, there's always, our brains are always trying to find a way. I think it's trying to pave the way for what we want. the flip, so the flip side of, I can, you know, I can call the shots. could be like, God underneath it. It's like, ⁓ and besides that tree looks good. It looks good. Todd: Mm-hmm. And justify it. I mean, I think it's the same. I, like I said, I can, I can see it. Todd's well done that we talked about leaves the blue way, uh, memoir last week and we read a little section of it. Talked about the grok reveal a little bit, but anyway, it's a good book. You should read it if you haven't, but part of my story was walking away from God for a while and Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: in having a big tort affair and getting a divorce and breaking up families and a lot of relational kind of wreckage along the way. And if you'd asked me at the time, I kind of felt like I deserved it after he took my mom from me. Now, like I didn't trust him after that because I didn't like the way things were going. And I thought, if my choice is to depend on your way or choose my own way, I'm going to do mine because that's not working out. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Todd: Because your way just leads to suffering. You know what I mean? And so I think that temptation is the same. we feel like, I'm not willing to go all in on total dependence, maybe because God's hurt us. That's that rock of offense that Christ is on the front end sometimes. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. It is. Right. What's interesting is you were in a storm. You know, it's easy for us today in our lives to look and say, deserve this because I've gone through this for the past, whatever. And I think it's really easy for us to do that. I'm looking here like the weather's perfect. They're in paradise. So, I mean, what is the real reason that these people who have everything Todd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yo, It's Carrie: been given everything and everything is perfection around them why would they still yearn for something that God said you shouldn't have. Todd: Maybe the grass is always greener. How much of our life comes down to FOMO? Fear of missing out, right? You wonder sometimes. I actually wrote that on this. thought how much of this chapter is just FOMO? What's out there? I mean, we know how good this is, but man, he made a whole world. ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: Right? Sure. Yeah, right. I mean, is it our nature? So, you know, we talk about original sin. I don't know if that's just a Catholic thing. We won't get in the weeds on. OK, I mean, this is. Todd: No, it's not just Catholic thing. I think it, I think it did kind of start with Augustine. Like many heresies. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay, so. Gosh, but I'm just thinking it's in, you know, it's in our nature. We say that it's in our nature to be, to be tempted to want to disobey. Like you have to be taught to do the right thing. You have to be taught the difference between right and wrong. But I feel like, was it always in our nature? Was FOMO always, was it just always in us? Todd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maybe. Well, like I said last week, maybe God wanted us a broken heart. Maybe even though he started with innocence, always knew that innocence wouldn't last. It would always have to be forgiveness was what the kingdom was going to be based on. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Is that what free will is all about? Ooh, Todd, I've just had a huge light bulb moment. Todd: I saw it. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead. Yo, It's Carrie: Well, it's interesting I mean, because you're talking about innocence. Innocence can't last. Like it's impossible, especially now, especially in our fallen world. But forgiveness lasts. Redemption is eternal. ⁓ I mean, because you're talking about innocence. Innocence can't last. Like it's impossible, especially now, especially in our fallen world. But forgiveness lasts. Redemption is eternal. ⁓ Todd: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, forgiveness is the way back. And that they can base kind of a relationship on. ⁓ Creation, he also, let's see here. I got so many little notes written all over here. I think it's that, but he basically got Eve to buy into him, maybe Adam too, that God was holding out on him somehow. I mean, that's kind of the serpent's whole thing. Is God's holding out on you. Yeah, forgiveness is the way back. And that they can base kind of a relationship on. ⁓ Creation, he also, let's see here. I got so many little notes written all over here. I think it's that, but he basically got Eve to buy into him, maybe Adam too, that God was holding out on him somehow. I mean, that's kind of the serpent's whole thing. Is God's holding out on you. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Right. Okay, share your little note. Okay, share your little note. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Right. Todd: If only you knew what's in you, If only you knew what's in you, Yo, It's Carrie: What I know. What I know. Todd: ⁓ if only you what you were of, Tony Evans or whatever. ⁓ You know what I mean? Like it's in you, Joel Olstein, right? Big smiles. ⁓ Only we knew all of the good in us. I don't know. Maybe that's not fair to Joel Olstein, but, ⁓ I think that that's what the, yeah. Yo, It's Carrie: like, I'm... ⁓ Allow me to illuminate. There's a fine line, right? There's a fine line between saying we've been made in God's image and not saying that we're divine. Like, there's a fine line. Todd: Yeah. But I do think the devil was telling them, listen, the way to become a God lies this way. God, and then Christ comes and says, the way to become a son of God is through me. It's through forgiveness. It's through sacrifice. It's true. Love in the unlovable. It's through washing the feet of those who've hurt you. Unforgiven the unforgivable. That's how. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: That's how we get there. And it starts with God doing that in us. ⁓ So I also think it's interesting because it... ⁓ You... That they started... They... So all of a sudden their eyes are open. They realize everything that's going on. So the state of grace has given them freedom in a way that they're going to step out of. And now their recovery... See, God isn't... Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Right. Todd: hovering their nakedness per se, they gotta do it on their own, is what they think. And they start so un-faking. But they can't even do that. The first thing they try to do is just a failure. And God's like, listen, even on his way out, he's cursing them and he's whatever, I gotta make you some clothes. We gotta redo this. No, it's not. It's I think the beginning of sacrifice. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah, is that is that's not just this translation, right? That's so interesting. He makes them close. Todd: of a blood sacrifice as a covering. It's the beginning of that metaphor. That's the first time we see God kill something to cover their sins or their nakedness, their shame, if you want to think of it that way. Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ Is it? K Wow. Is this obvious to everyone but me? I've never thought of that that way. I had no idea. Just never thought about that. Todd: Yes, everybody. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, I don't know. But I think, that's what it is. Yo, It's Carrie: But when it said leather, I was like, ⁓ Todd: It's also the first time you start to see, I think, death in creation. That you start to see not only animals and man, know, man killing animals, eating animals, all those things, but probably animals killing animals. It's just, you start to, what's introduced is when God goes through it, maybe I should go in a little bit more linear fashion, but God. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Right. Okay. Okay. Todd: They hid from God, so they recognize their nakedness and they hide. And we see right away that everything's changed in this relation. It was all about relationship before. You don't hide from somebody that you're in close relationship with. And they're walking with God and they're delighting in God and they're loving God. But as soon as they step out on their own, they step away from that relationship and suddenly they're hiding from the person. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: Made them and that and and and has given them everything Suddenly they're hiding because because they're ashamed and they can't they know what they've done Maybe they don't know exactly what it's gonna mean yet But they got a feeling it's bad. I Got you know what? I mean when they're first opened up and then they like whoa, what are we gonna do now? and I just think that God calling to him Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: Like this is that part of God as a character in his own story. This is that part of Jesus where we think, well, Jesus is God, he knows everything. Well, then why does he ask and stop when he's on his way to Jarius' house when the woman with the bleeding issue touches him and the power comes out of him and he spends, he takes all this time to be like, who touched me? And his disciples are like, what are you talking about, who touched you? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Did he really mean that? Did he know? Was he just putting on a show? I don't think so. I think that God and Christ in the story accept certain limitations. When Christ puts on flesh, he accepts certain limitations. And there's a part of him that can access maybe that kind of over-arcing deity. But I think a lot of the times he kind of operates in a veil beneath that. Do you know what I mean? He's not accessing that constantly. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: And I think that's the same with God here. think God's like, what's going on? We think, ⁓ God already knew what was going on. Cause so many people like to ruin stories cause they don't understand stories. That's not the story. Yo, It's Carrie: Right, he's fully. Well, I was going to ask, I was going to ask, don't you think God must have known like the second this happened? He had to have known. I think he knew. I think he's asking to hear them explain themselves. Todd: I don't know whether, whether he knew or not the God as presented in as a character in this story, the God who's walking with them in the garden acts like he doesn't and he lets them reveal it to him. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Right. But I think it's him, I think he wants to hear them explain themselves. That's what I think. ⁓ Yeah. Todd: Maybe it's just not told that way. It's told like, who told you you were Nate? Like, it's like God's asking questions. Does he, has God never asked a question he didn't know the answer to? Yo, It's Carrie: Right. That's kind of interesting. No, but that's kind of interesting. Todd: Like he's, that's where I think that difference comes of, of being a. Yo, It's Carrie: So you're saying he's almost like Jesus in the garden with them. Todd: I think so, yeah, think. Well listen, God, I guess if you want us to go strict Trinitarian, God the Father is a spirit. It specifically talks about that. He's not a human. But Jesus is a human. And I think that Jesus, once creation becomes, obviously the incarnation is the point at which you really, but... Yo, It's Carrie: I mean, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: but I think he portrays the human side of think when he's walking in the garden, he's wearing a body, and I think he looks just like Jesus. That's because I think he's Jesus. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it makes sense. It makes sense. Why would he look like a different man, I guess, but... Todd: Right. I think it's Jesus and I think he's walking in the garden with him and I think when he's like Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. I hope people enjoy hearing us like kind of speculate about these things because I'm really curious about these things. When we read this stuff, I love thinking about this. Todd: Well, I think I think they're all good questions, you know, like it's fair to look at the story what I don't like and I and listen, I don't like it when preachers or whoever. I don't like it when they start with, well, this is the story, but God knew it all along and God was just kind of this was not really God, you know, he didn't really mean what he said and this that and the other. I just think you're undermining the point of the story. I don't I don't I don't think. Yo, It's Carrie: Wow. Yeah. Todd: I think God told the story the way he told it on purpose. And he doesn't want us coming over the top to be like, ⁓ you didn't really mean that. He already knew. I think he, he's expressing emotions. What are the emotions of God in this? God's in relation in this relationship with the pinnacle of all creation is fractured and God's upset in the same way that you'd be upset when somebody breaks up with you for Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. Todd: nine months or whatever, you know what I mean? Or when someone dies, it's horrible, but, but God's upset. He's hurt. And he's, and he's looking at him he's like, why are you hiding from me? Who told you this? And then, and then instantly blame shifting starts. Cause first thing they do admit it. Both of them will say, I did eat, but, it was that woman, that check that you made. Yo, It's Carrie: Right, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. ⁓ yeah. Todd: You took my rib and made her. And she gave it to me. And she's hot. How could I not eat it? Yo, It's Carrie: He knew, right? Like she didn't trick him and not tell him where the fruit was from, right? This is something I heard someone talking about one time. He knew, she's like, you know, and I wonder. Todd: I don't think so, I think he knew ya. The classic thing to say that people like theologians have always said, or pastors or whatever, that Eve was deceived. Adam chose. Adam knew what he was choosing. Eve was deceived in that. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Well, even if she was deceived, she was still disobedient. I mean, I think that it's the enemy's tactic to deceive us always. Todd: True, 100%. It is. And to some extent, you could say Adam chose, but to some extent Adam was deceived too, I think. Yo, It's Carrie: Well, sure. Yeah. I mean, obviously it wasn't instantaneous for her because she turned and offered it to him. You know, it must have. Must have then. Todd: But it's funny how Adam points to Eve and Eve points to the serpent, then God turns to the serpent and the serpent's just like, like, the guy with the wrench, chug. ⁓ You know what I mean? then, and then God goes about into the curse and what the curse is going to mean. What their life on earth. Yo, It's Carrie: Yup. Gotcha. I gotcha. Mm-hmm. Todd: in all of our lives on earth. Everybody that all their kids that come after them, everybody, all the offspring, this is how it's going to be. So he starts with the serpent and he says, because you've done this, you're cursed. You're cursed beyond all cattle, wild animals, cursed to slink on your belly and eat dirt all your life. I'm declaring war between you and the woman, between your offspring and hers. He'll wound your head. You'll wound his heel. obviously there's a little bit of of a, Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: literal physical sense to this with a snake, but I think most of it is is symbolic of what's going on between man and Satan. Like for the rest of the story. Do you know what I mean? I understand that humans don't like snakes and whatever. I just I don't think that's the primary point personally. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, no, it's I mean, yeah. Todd: When he says he's declaring war, he's not declaring war between man and snakes. I don't think. Although there is a point to which I think that creation was created in peace. Like peace reigned over creation. And I think that when God declares war, all of creation is moving from peace to war. It doesn't matter how many times Pope Leo tells us we shouldn't go to war. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: We're in a state of this whole, this entire thing is a state of war. Now as a church, you're part of the spiritual warfare. And it says that we fight against princes and, and, know, powers and, know, spirits in high places, things like that. Like we're still at war. We're always at war. We're, on a war time footing. And any peace that we get, I think is, I think that explains why peace is kind of fleeting in our world. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Todd: Why it seems like it doesn't quite matter if we could just get here, we think, or if we could just deal with Iran. If Iran would just come around, we could finally have some peace. That never seems to work out that way. We seem to move from a world dominated by the aggressive use of force. And that seems to be the world we live in. And that doesn't matter whether it's man to animals. Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ my ⁓ Right. Todd: Doesn't matter if it's man to man. We're going to see that in the very next chapter with Cain and Abel, that violence starts right away. Violence is another way to say it, but war and violence become the world of mankind. Does that make sense? And if it's not a cold war between America and the Soviet Union, Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. completely. Todd: then it's a cold war in your own house between a husband and a wife that can't get along. But do you know what I mean? It's all over all the time. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Yeah. It's between siblings. It's between neighbors. It's yeah, it goes on and on. Todd: Yeah, there's only one way to peace through the Prince of Peace, right? I think that's what's going on. Then he tells the woman, I'll multiply your pains in childbirth. You'll give birth to your babies in pain. You'll want to please your husband, but he'll lord it over you. That I thought, I think that whole thing is, it's all relational. I think it does show that a woman's primary Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Interesting. Todd: ⁓ Primary drive is towards children, family, nesting, nurturing. That's what a woman is just, it's baked right in, right? And God says prosper, fill the earth, have kids. So you're gonna wanna do this. You were gonna do it anyway before, but now it's gonna be way harder. It's just gonna suck. But as bad as it sucks, you know, you're still gonna wanna do it over and over again. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah, go ahead. Todd: And, and then the, the husband lured it over, think is just, that's a, it's a, it's a, it's like relational. think, I think it's, you see relationships that are, that are going to struggle from here on out. It's not. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay, I was going say, you think it's just a prediction of the discord, of the potential ⁓ challenge it will be to maintain that peace in that relationship? Todd: Yeah, and what life's gonna look like. mean, women have certainly been ⁓ lorded over throughout all of human history at varying times worse than others. the women have been, yeah, it's been difficult. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. You know, that's interesting. you think that Adam and Eve were more equal partners before this? Todd: Yes, I do. In fact, I'll give it to you on the other book end. I think what fixes this is the gospel and the church. And I think as you read all through Paul's epistles, it's in the church that you find there's not man or woman, there's not Jew or Greek. We put away racism, we put away sexism, the patriarchy, the whole thing. That's all, the ground's all level at the foot of the cross, but that's the only place. In the natural world, it doesn't work that way. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Todd: But what fixes this is the church. What fixes this is again, what fixes everything, it's Christ. It's the tree of life. It's that forgiveness, it's that sacrifice. And that, men's, men and women back together, I think. You know what I mean? I think in the church is where you can, it's where you find that. One of the reasons I don't like the, personally, now listen, if people were to ask me how I feel about women pastors, my answer is generally, I don't like pastors anyway. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Todd: So, don't care whether they're men or women. Yeah, but the whole thing, I don't like the whole hierarchy get up to begin with. But I think that within ministry, ⁓ within a body, within the body of Christ, women have every bit as much access to Jesus, as much access to ministry, as much access to everything as men do. There's not men or women in that kind of scenario. ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: Except Pastor Darrell. Hi Darrell. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Todd: And to the extent that institutions want to reintroduce it, I think they're wrong. It's just me. But that's a division between men and women alerting over even within the church. I don't think it's good. I don't think it's right, personally. So. ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: They want to reintroduce what? ⁓ gotcha. Right. Okay. ⁓ Todd: Whatever enmity there is between the sexes, I think found its beginnings right here. I think you're right. I don't think it was there before. I think Adam and Eve were equal, like co-equal helpers, stewards, gardeners, whatever you want to think of it. They were just, they were two sides of the same coin. You know what I mean? Like that's how they were. And then the fall fractured that. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. interesting. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Todd: And we don't get back to it until we get Christ and then within the church we make our way back to Back to the garden. I think that was a Darrell who said that when he was quoting Joni Mitchell last week I thought that was good. I should find that he said Hold on. I'll find pastor Darrell's text. I thought it was pretty good. I just got Yo, It's Carrie: What he was calling Joni Mitchell? I don't remember that. ⁓ okay. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ When, yeah, you're talking about Pastor Darrell? In his, yeah. Mm-hmm. Todd: to find it. Where is it? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about now, do you remember? Yeah, what he said when I asked him for his kind of take on what we reading about. And he said, all of creation outside the garden is subject to evil. And he says, the rest of the book is summarily, concisely put by Joni Mitchell. We are stardust, we are golden, we're a billion year old carbon, and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden. Yo, It's Carrie: Yes. Todd: I thought that, I just like that because I do think that's, I think Christ is bringing us back. He's bringing us back to the garden. It's not going to look exactly the same because again, it's going to be founded on forgiveness, not on innocence. And that's a, that's that's a durable, that's an eternal foundation, right? Maybe innocence can't, isn't, isn't eternal per se. don't know because God, guess, isn't innocent in that way. I mean, God knows good and evil, obviously. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Right. Right. and if, and here's the thing, the reason innocence can't be, I don't believe innocence can be eternal is because you talked last week about how God needed to give us a way out. Otherwise you're like a prisoner, know, Adam and Eve would be prisoners if they didn't have another option. And if Todd: You know what mean? Not that he's ever committed evil, but he knows. Yo, It's Carrie: if there's another option that is away from God, well, that's going to be away from purity, away from the innocence. You're going to know about evil, not just God's love and His grace. So anything outside of just being in that grace, no other options, no free will, ⁓ It's not how God wanted it, but as soon as you introduce choices, free will, there has to be a loss of innocence to achieve that. Todd: No, I think you're right. then God, so, so to women and mind you, I've got four daughters. So I've had, I've had them throw up in my face. I was not, he ate the apple. Why would I feel like this? You know what I mean? I get that. I just tell me that I've heard that way more than once. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. ⁓ because they're going through it, going through stuff. Todd: But I make this point and I say, if you read what he tells man his life is gonna be like, that's an everyday deal. We're not talking once every 28 days, honey. We're not talking when you have a baby. But to be fair, the woman partakes in this part of the curse too, to an extent, you know what I mean? And he told the man, because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree, that I commanded you not to eat from. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah, right. Todd: Don't eat from this tree. The very ground is cursed because of you. Getting food from the ground will be as painful as having babies is for your wife. So it'll be like if you're having babies every day. Because every single day you go out to make a living. This world and this ground that used to work with you, everywhere you turn, is now going to work against you everywhere you turn. It'll be as painful as having babies for your wife. You'll be working in pain your whole life long. The ground will sprout thorns and weeds. You'll get your food the hard way, planting and tilling and harvesting, sweating in the fields from dawn to dusk until you return to that ground yourself dead and buried. You started out as dirt, you'll end up as dirt. And you could put in the middle there and you're gonna spend your whole life working in the dirt. That's kind of what he says before that. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Yeah. From dawn to dusk. Oof. Todd: So you'll end up dirt. Now I will say again, I'm even calling an old saw that I come to once in a while that he doesn't say you'll end up as a roasted marshmallow for eternity. just like, I like to point that out once in a while. And at the end of it, Yo, It's Carrie: Right, right. doesn't ask. You're right. He does not. He just basically says life, not to minimize it, but he says life's going to be hard. Now life is going to be hard. But you're right. He doesn't say, there's death at the end. Right. But not damnation. It doesn't talk about damnation. Todd: is death. Yeah, it's just It doesn't talk about for all eternity the saints of God are going to roast s'mores over you. Like Augustine seemed to think. Yo, It's Carrie: Thank goodness. Todd: Thank you, Augustine, for all your compassion. Anyway. I love it. I love the smell of burning man flesh. ⁓ Anyway, that's just an aside, ⁓ If you listen to the first one, you'll hear us talk about conditional mortality and things. And then, we do have some where we've talked about howling things too. ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: As he licks his fingers of his marshmallow, sticky as... ⁓ terrible. You have to listen to more episodes to hear Todd and I talk about hell or. Okay. Todd: And then the man known as Adam named his wife Eve because she was a mother of all living. Now that one's gonna, that one's gonna bother you going forward because it's kind of makes it sound like Eve's mother everybody. ⁓ I don't know. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's, it's, it's a confusing matter for me, but we'll get to it. We'll get to it when the world starts getting populated. We'll get to it. Todd: We'll get to it eventually and then God... God made leather clothing for Adam and his wife and dressed them. So God's still, he's still taking care of them, even on the way out. And that's my point, is he's putting that picture right at the front end, which is it's God who can cover our nakedness and cover our shame. But he does it through death and he does it by the shedding of blood. And that's the cross. That's Christ. Yo, It's Carrie: just never thought of that. So interesting. Wow. Todd: God said the man has become like one of us, capable of knowing everything ranging from good to evil. What if he now should reach out and take fruit from the tree of life and eat and live forever? So it does seem like if he ate from the tree of life, even fallen, he would live forever. And that's why God says, I'm not doing it this way. I want you forever, but I don't want you like this forever. So I got a better way to do this. Yo, It's Carrie: Yep. But he's like, he's like, nope. Right. I'm still mad at you. You screwed it Todd: I'll do the covering. And then, God expelled them from the Garden of Eden, sent them to work the ground, the same dirt out of which they'd been made. I just, there's something significant about that. I don't even know exactly what it is, but that it's the same dirt. You're working like the same dirt out of which you've been made. I think what that sounds like is it sounds frustrating. It sounds like there's a certain frustration just laid right in. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know that... Todd: You know what I mean? How far are you ever going to get when you're made of dirt and you're working in dirt and you end up as dirt? What are we? You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Right. You know what it makes me think of? Because he said, you started out as dirt, you'll end up as dirt. So now that this fracture has occurred, now death has been introduced to their world. And I feel like it's almost like it's like a symbol of death. Like they are now going into this world that contains death. Todd: Mm-hmm. It is, ⁓ Yo, It's Carrie: And it's like they're going right out on the same dirt. That's kind what it makes me think of. Todd: Yeah. You get to, you get to pick your own way. You get to choose what you do. You get to, you get to call your own shots, but it's going to be, there will be a never ending futility about it. No matter how much you achieve. And we see that still today. I mean, you see that with, doesn't matter if you have $6 billion, your life can still be empty. You're still just dirt working with dirt, ending up as dirt. And we spend all of our life trying to feel like that's not true. I don't know. You know what I mean? But as much as we work at it, I think, I feel like we still know there's still a certain hollowness to things. Even the successes that we find in the achievements that we have, if they're not found in Christ, through Christ, then Yo, It's Carrie: I know, we really do. Yeah, we do. Todd: There's just a certain hollowness to it all. It doesn't feel like you thought it would. You know? That fruit doesn't... Man, I thought it'd be better. I thought that fruit would be... I thought that taste would last a little longer. I didn't know what the hangover was gonna be like. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Right. Anyone, and you know what, anyone listening who in some, in your life has, you've been tempted, like, you you made the joke about chicks hot, you know, anyone who has been tempted and has given into that temptation knows that that's exact, this is exactly how it feels afterwards. You're just like, well, that just wasn't worth that at all. It wasn't. Yeah. ⁓ does it say that in there? Todd: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's chasing of the wind. That's what I think. Ecclesiastes maybe that's in, that life is a, it's a chasing of the wind. We just, all of like, all life is smoke, gaining wealth, love, all this stuff. It's all smoke. It all vanishes as quick as it appears. It's kind of the, that's what you're getting. Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes and he's, he's writing kind of a treatise of life looked at from Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ I love that. I want to use that. Mm-hmm. didn't Todd: from a mortal perspective. Because then he ends with, in the end, there's only one thing you can count on, fear God and follow him, trust him or whatever. Everything else is smoke, essentially, is kind of what, that's the whole point ⁓ of Ecclesiastes. Anyway, I think we did pretty good. Now, we don't have to be done, go after it, Kerry. We just hit an hour and I thought, uh-oh, I gotta get Kerry out of here. Yo, It's Carrie: ⁓ That's cool. So can we before we before we. Well. OK, I I just want to know. I just want to know about this. This the guarding of the of the garden. Well, yeah, this. He threw them out of the garden and stationed Angel Cherubim and a revolving sword of fire. Todd: Ahahahaha! ⁓ yeah, the cherubim. Yo, It's Carrie: Like, what is that? This is so interesting. This is interesting imagery. Granted, this is a translation. Todd: Sounds like it well. I think the one thing you would say is that the Garden of didn't disappear. It doesn't look like. We have to assume that whatever the Garden of Eden is, it's still the Garden of Eden. It's still there. These cherubims are still there and the sword of fire is still there. I think. We can't get there on our own. And the tree of life is still there and there's only one way to it which is through Jesus, not back through Eden. Do you know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Todd: I guess, but yeah, it is interesting because it's a weird idea. I mean, how do you fit that in? Where do we go? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. I know. It was kind of a surprising ⁓ image for me at the end of this story. Todd: How does a garden of Eden in a tree of life fit in with a globe spinning through the cosmos at like 500,000 miles an hour? You know what mean? These are the things that you say. doesn't, well, I don't know. I don't know is the answer. But to me, looks like we'll know at some point. And I think the garden will still be, I think we'll, I think we'll experience the garden of Eden. I do. And. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Yeah. You think so? Todd: And that will be, and maybe, maybe the rest of Earth will be recreated. Maybe when it says there'll be a new heavens and a new Earth, ⁓ that doesn't exactly, maybe that doesn't apply to Eden, maybe it does, I don't know. Maybe God recreates Eden. We do get a new Jerusalem. And it talks in Revelation about, ⁓ I may not be able to find it quick enough, but I forgot that last week when we talking about the Tree of Life. It talks about in the New Jerusalem toward the end of Revelation, talks about the Tree of Life. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Yeah. Todd: in in heaven or whatever you would want to think of it let me see if i can find it quick before we we roll out here another throne second death Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. I'm looking up a, I'm looking up a very like, you know, scratch the surface AI, Google AI overview of this, of this. know I should have asked Grok, sorry. I'll ask Grok later. Okay. Todd: GRUH! Here it is, here it is. Then the angel, this is Revelation 22 guys, then the angel showed me water of life river, crystal bright. It flowed from the throne of God and the lamb right down the middle of the street. Remember we had rivers thrown, flown into Eden. Remember a river flowed into Eden and then split up into four. Well here we've got a river flowing out of the throne of God right down the middle of the street. Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Todd: He the tree of life was planted on each side of the river Producing 12 kinds of fruit of fruit a ripe fruit each month The leaves of the tree are for healing the nations never again will anything be cursed the throne of God and of the lamb is at the center His servants will offer God's service worshiping the look on his face their foreheads mirroring God Never again will there be any night. No one will need Lamplight or sunlight the shining of God the master is all the light anyone needs and they will rule with him age after age after age that I Didn't remember last week when I was talking about the fruit of life. That was where I got the idea the monthly thing Because it says there's there's a fruit for every month Well, you get these these these numbers the mean things in the Bible so New Jerusalem has has 12 gates Yo, It's Carrie: Okay, interesting. Todd: and the gates are made out precious stone, and you have the 12 apostles, and you have the 12 tribes of Israel. And so all of this is kind of tying together. But again, I think it's that same picture of both with the river and with the tree of life of a continual feeding and a continual drinking. A continual eating, a continual drinking as we enter into the life of God and to immortality through Yo, It's Carrie: The tribes, okay. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Todd: Christ, day after day, after week, after month, age after age after age. Make sense? Yo, It's Carrie: Okay. Sure. ⁓ You feel like those symbolic numbers indicate ongoing, year-round, continual sustenance. Todd: Repeated yeah, I do And I think it bookends. I think if you look at the tree of life in Genesis and the tree in Revelation, they bookend each other and they both find their culmination in Christ in the cross, right in the center of the story. That's what I think, as we're looking at an overarching view of the story and then as we go from here, we're gonna get into the dirt of it. We're gonna start working. Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Mmm. Mm-hmm. The dirt. ⁓ the dirt. The dirt gets dirty fast. Yep. Todd: with dirt in dirt. We're going to see people end up like dirt. It gets messy. Things get messy fast. But I think we're going to find that God's in the mess the whole way. If we had time, and eventually maybe we will, to go through the whole Bible on beers with Jesus, but we'll definitely find it in Genesis. We found it in Mark. We found it in Acts. Every single book we study, you're going to find God's in the mess the whole way. This was always God's plan, and he's bringing us back to the garden. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah Todd: What you think, Kerry? That's a faith. And the other thing that I'll just throw out there is this just kind of struck me. Even for Adam and Eve, even in innocence, remaining in Eden required faith. It's always been faith. It required faith to remain in Eden. Faith that God was telling the truth. Faith that what God said Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah, I hope so. I hope he is. Mm-hmm. Todd: He meant and that God was gonna continually feed them, continue to take care of them, that they could depend on him. When they stepped outside of faith, like with Peter when he's out on the walkin' towards Jesus on the water and he takes his eyes off of Jesus and starts lookin' at the waves, then he starts to sink. And that's the knowledge of good and evil. That's the choice they made to go that way. And they were always gonna sink that way. Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Mm-hmm. Right, their faith had to be that God was truth. And they were deceived by the serpent. The serpent, yeah, their faith wavered. Todd: What the serpent brought into Eden was doubt. Doubt enters the garden. And suddenly doubt is undermining faith. No different than our own lives. No different than our own marriages, that our own relationships. That's the thing. You see it all over. We can be like, well, if we've hadn't eaten the apple, think how much better things would have been made. But every day we make the same choice. You know what I mean? Yo, It's Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, really. Way more. Mm-hmm. Yes. Todd: Don't just, don't pawn it off on Adam and Eve. Let's all own our own. But we all make the same choice and the path, the story, the way back is the same. And we're going to find that throughout and God's going to start to work with man. We're going to see Cain and Abel and it gets fun from here. So I think we've dealt with the, with the big stuff. That's the real foundational. And then from here, we're just going to start digging into the story of, of humanity. Yo, It's Carrie: Yeah. Todd: human history basically. See how it goes. See how the choice worked out deciding to go their own way, right? Yo, It's Carrie: Right. Ta-da, here we are. Yeah, it's good. Todd: All right, guys, thank you for joining us today, sticking with us. Come back next week, Tuesday's Wildly Opinion News Hour, where we just kind of go through the news of the day. Although we've been mixing some other stuff. We had that good ⁓ clip of an interview by Ben Sasse this week. It was really good. I say it's news and it is our news political end and we have fun with it, but we definitely mix in some faith stuff even there. ⁓ And then. Yo, It's Carrie: Yes, thank you so much. ⁓ yeah, definitely give it a shot. It's not just news. It's kind of like, it's good stuff. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's pretty good. Todd: Beers is always on Wednesdays. And visit toddsworld.net, you can find all the books. ⁓ Get Leaves of Blue Way, maybe start with there. ⁓ look, Carrie's got the Beers with Jesus merch on. Yeah, that's great, there's a bunch of merch on there too. Yo, It's Carrie: Thanks for joining us. Books and ⁓ and merch like I'm wearing the classic. Oops. There we go. I love this one. You still have this? Yeah. I love that shirt. I know that the double fisting girl with the braids. love it so much. Thanks. Todd: Yes. How could we get rid of the beers with Jesus logo shirt? I love it. Yeah, it's perfect. All right, guys. Thanks for joining us. We will catch you next week. Thanks, Kerry.