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Second Thoughts | Why Playing It Safe Won’t Change the World · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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  We can be with people that don't look like us, and we can even get
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  accusations from others thinking, oh, look who she's associating or he's associating
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  with. We can do that. That is the Jesus way. That
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  is how we are going to see growth within the church. Because we're all
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  in really big trouble if Jesus only served people he agreed
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  with. Mhmm. This is Journey with
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  Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find
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  inspiration to love others well through real life stories and
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  honest conversations.
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  What if the biggest thing holding us back isn't fear, but
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  familiarity? What if staying in our comfort zone
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  keeps us from fully living out our faith? We're in our
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  second thoughts episode, Wendy. We are having a conversation about our
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  previous conversation with David and Shannon Steeves. After
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  our talk, I kept coming back to this. What are we missing when we only
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  surround ourselves with people who think like us, worship like us, or
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  live like us? And maybe more importantly, how do we break out of those
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  bubbles? So, you wanna kick off this conversation,
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  our second thoughts episode, which if you're new to this podcast,
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  we're reflecting on our previous conversation wanting to take the content a little bit
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  deeper. Maybe having those conversations we can't have in front of our guests. I don't
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  know. What a conversation it really
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  was. David and Shannon were a delight to have. A young married couple,
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  very diverse. Talk about bursting bubbles, getting out of comfort
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  zones. Bubbles were popping all over in their story,
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  Johan, in the way they found each other, as an
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  American and Canadian, but David coming from two cultures
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  prior, three cultures, and and you'll have to pick up their story to to catch
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  the details. And Shannon and David, how they're working through their
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  marriage, how they're working through denominationalism and
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  different thoughts, and even Shannon as she's taken on a role on our
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  team, crossing the the barriers between social services
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  and the most vulnerable people in our city of Winnipeg and
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  the local churches. We could pick on so many areas of
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  their story to say, oh, that's what it means to step out of your
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  comfort zone. But, Johan, what did you get out of it? It made me
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  think a little bit about my upbringing. We moved from Saskatchewan to
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  Winnipeg, and my dad actually pastored, I like to say,
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  a Jamaican black church even though my dad's a white,
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  Pentecostal evangelical guy. But our church mostly
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  consisted of a black community. It brought us some of those thoughts,
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  and even when they got into talking about their different church
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  experiences, I thought about, hey, what are my church experiences and what
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  are the things I've brought with me to the new church expressions and the new
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  jobs that I've had. Just really sitting with that, it's like, what have I brought
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  with me that I've changed, I've adjusted things I don't wanna keep, things
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  I I wanna hold on to? Yeah. I think we often don't even
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  realize how insular our thinking is
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  until we've crossed different thresholds where we've had to stretch our
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  own imagination for how life actually operates. Sharing my
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  experience, I grew up white Mennonite, very
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  isolated, monocultural, I would say, for the most
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  part. But being introduced as a young child into different
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  cultures but even still, I I was still the person in power.
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  My culture dominated the the room. And it it's taken
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  me on a journey when I was going in South America and Middle East and
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  just being the minority, but still realizing I'm carrying
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  a certain assigned power I didn't like. I felt discomforted by
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  I was also assaulted day after day with things that annoyed me, and I
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  didn't understand the culture to, now in my own
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  family being the only white Mennonite cultured
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  person around our table and still realizing
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  there's still things within me that I need to confront.
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  It's not to say that my upbringing is bad. I have a lot to
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  add value into conversation, but realizing that
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  my way isn't the only way. How about you, Johan? My
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  thinking is different. I can't go back to that girl that was five years old
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  in Altona, Manitoba in kindergarten. I I can't be
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  that person anymore. Because when you enter into different
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  cultures, entered into different denominations, and things like that,
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  it changes you, I would like to say for the better.
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  What what are your thoughts, going through different cultural experiences?
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  Yeah. I mean, again, when we were in Saskatchewan, my dad was pastoring
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  an indigenous church. So most of our community was indigenous. It wasn't officially
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  indigenous, but that's the people that he had. And then we moved to Winnipeg, and
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  it was a Jamaican church. So two very different cultural
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  expressions with my white dad pastoring. So
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  I I grew up with different cultural experiences and, like, even
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  when David talked about I think about these different cultural experiences and I
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  want to learn from each of them and bring the
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  good with me. Just realizing that
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  that Christianity, the kingdom isn't a Western
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  religion that we've kinda grown up in, And realizing there's
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  many different expressions and many different ways to worship
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  and different communities, I I just love I
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  love that fabric that the Lord weaves us in it, and there's not one right
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  one. It's like that fragrance going before heaven of
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  worship. God wants all the different fragrances. It'll
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  be really boring if it if it all smelled the same, if it all sounded
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  the same. So I I just really think bringing in all these
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  different expressions are is just a representation of what the
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  lord has in store for us when we get to heaven. Absolutely.
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  I I think one of the things that I took away from our last interview
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  with Shannon and David and from our own experiences that we've discussed
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  over coffee is that there is such richness
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  in diversity. In different ethnic diversities,
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  in different denominations, we get to encounter one of the
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  things I love about my job is I get to sit around tables that
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  are Baptist, Pentecostal, Vineyard,
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  Catholic, diocese. They're so and, like,
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  sitting around different nucleus of tables that often
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  think alike for the most part, that that's what unites them
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  together. But being able to be sort of a neuron between
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  cells sitting at different tables and celebrating the
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  diversity, and that could go with cultural groups too. There's a
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  a a quote. I think it's a bit adapted, but from Henry now, and
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  he talks about diversity and how can we love
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  across diversity. And he says something like this. Love begins when
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  we risk being known by people who are different than us.
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  And I think that's important. Like, it's not just about having a
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  parade of diversity as if that becomes our goal,
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  our end goal. But what does it mean to actually love
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  another person, not just in my image or what how they fit
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  into my world, but how do we actually just show up at the
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  table and love each other in our diversity,
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  but we have to get away from just simply our own
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  kind, the places where we feel comfortable,
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  but sitting within diversity. Yeah.
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  Getting uncomfortable. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. I think we need to put
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  ourselves in uncomfortable situations in in order to learn how to do
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  that, get out of those comfort zones, to be able to learn how to love
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  people properly. I mean, I've had the privilege of growing up where
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  my parents fostered over 50 kids, different diverse
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  backgrounds, all sorts of cultural backgrounds. So I've had to learn
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  to love and live with different cultures and different
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  expressions and whole different lifestyles, but not everybody
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  has that opportunity. Sometimes we're stuck in those echo chambers
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  where the person sitting beside us is very much like
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  us. So how do we get churches out of their
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  comfort zone and how do we get them learning to love these other
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  diverse expressions? I know our society,
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  we often find ourself with like minded people
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  who think like us, who worship like us, and and and it's very easy by
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  default we wanna find. I think there's a sense of security and
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  camaraderie in that, but I think we have to be intentional.
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  There's no one in Canada that can say, oh, I don't have
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  the opportunity for diversity. We have to be
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  intentional about seeing other people as our
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  neighbor. We have to see that other person and not just be blocked out
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  by fear. What if they don't like me or what if we don't think alike?
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  God invites us into those places, and and we
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  have nothing to fear in creating space
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  around our table. And also not just waiting for people to come to
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  us, but going into circles, being intentional, being a humble
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  presence, in these places, not to assimilate and pretend, oh, now
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  I'm Jamaican or now I'm South American from the
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  from Bolivia, for example. But I can live within among
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  them and learn different ways and practices and
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  world views and learn to appreciate the
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  other. So why do we build up these
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  bubbles if it's keeping us from diverse experiences that
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  could potentially be exciting? I would say we probably, deep
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  down inside, fear discomfort.
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  Like, who really wants to be discomforted. Right? We
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  want something that's familiar. We want something that's
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  safe, but it really challenges our
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  security. But I believe that if we are secure in Christ, if
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  our attachment is securely rooted in Christ, who by
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  very nature of coming out of his comfort
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  showed us the way of discomfort. He was always
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  breaking social bubbles. If you you look through scripture, he
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  was eating with outsiders. He was talking to the marginalized. He was challenging
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  power struggles and structures within
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  society, and we are invited to
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  that. But I think we we've got to get through
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  that notion of feeling safe
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  is where god is. No. Actually, God is on the margins.
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  And so if we wanna find Jesus, it's like Matthew 25.
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  When did you see me hungry? When did you see me in prison? Who wants
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  to be among the hungry? Who wants to go into prison? I've I've volunteered
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  there. It's not a a most comforting place. But
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  Jesus says, that's where I'm found. And often we're looking
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  for Jesus in the clubhouse, in the church, where we
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  feel safe, where we we have safe theology. We use a lot of
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  safety talk. And our god is not safe. We know
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  from Aslan. Right? But he is good. But I think we know
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  inherently that going through uncomfortable experiences
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  actually helps us to grow. It's like, why do we choose certain
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  experiences to say, you know what, I wanna stay comfortable in this
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  area. I don't really wanna grow in this area. So I think maybe
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  maybe the question is what areas do I wanna grow? And
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  then you take the answer to that question and say, okay, what areas do I
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  need to get uncomfortable in order to do that? Mhmm. So like, do we wanna
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  grow spiritually? Okay. What's gonna make you uncomfortable? How are you gonna grow
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  spiritually? Because you learn from being uncomfortable and you
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  learn from mistakes and taking risks. But it seems like
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  we're not willing to do that in in so many areas. Yeah. And so
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  that is an invitation. People will have different kinds of
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  invitations right around them what that looks like. I
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  couldn't tell every listener, do this x, y, and
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  z, and then you are gonna grow, or then you are gonna be more open
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  minded, or you're going to love others better. Yeah. It looks
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  different for all of us. Right? It it is different. I I know one of
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  the times, if I can share, I was invited to go to The Middle
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  East on a peace mediation delegation tour. Now that
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  was a a learning opportunity that I had when I was in seminary. I
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  wanted to get out of the classroom because, like, I can read textbooks. I can
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  talk to theologians in tweed suits, but I actually wanted to
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  be in the Israel, in Palestine to see what has
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  actually happened. I I went there on a biblical, like, quest to
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  understand the Bible better, but I also wanted to understand in my global
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  studies what is actually happening on the ground. And so I
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  left my textbooks behind. I packed my little backpack and
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  went there, one summer from peace mediation. And and I did
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  some some touring on my own. And this is during an era
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  when there were and still is it's not tour season right
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  now, and it wasn't back then either. There's always wars, and
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  and that was a really, time of unrest. And
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  I sat down with soldier Israeli soldiers and had
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  conversations with them. I stayed with a Palestinian family in
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  the West Bank and and learned their stories. I got to
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  visit with a family that was grieving because they had just
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  lost their son and their brother and their uncle. He was a suicide
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  bomber. I talked with a family who lost their
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  son, a Palestinian boy getting bread and was shot,
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  by snipers. I also went into settlements and Jewish
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  settlements that had taken over the land. I sat with Christians and
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  a huge uprising of church believers within the Palestinian. I
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  sat with them, and I also on the Israeli, the the messianic
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  Christians and Jews. That was my purpose, to sit with
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  and have chai. Boy, did I learn to love chai. I came
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  away from that experience, though, seeing Jesus
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  in each one of them. And now when I look in the news, I know
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  they they love to do black and white. This is what is right. If you're
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  gonna be good, do the it's always more complicated. And I think
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  it starts with a thousand cups of chai
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  of just sitting and listening and hearing and
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  relating. And I feel that Jesus taught me
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  that. In the Garden Of Gethsemane, I was literally there talking
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  with people. And that's what what Jesus was teaching me and
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  inviting me to. And I can tell you, I learned a lot
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  more out of that peace mediation delegation trip. I wasn't there bringing peace. I
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  didn't obviously, there's still like, I couldn't be the hero there.
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  We we really need the Lord as hero there. But listening,
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  it was very transformative for my life.
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  Yeah. And this series is called the cost of indifference. So I was thinking about,
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  okay, what's the cost of not having these diverse experiences?
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  And again, it comes down to growth, I believe. Mhmm. It's like a
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  plant in soil. If it sits in that same soil for too
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  long, it has used up all those nutrients and there's nothing
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  new coming into it. Right? Yeah. That's why so many farmers use
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  crop rotation or they use diff they do different crops every year because it
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  needs new nutrients in that soil, new experiences to be
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  able to grow and be healthy. So I think the cost of
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  indifference in in not diversifying and not getting
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  these new experiences, not getting uncomfortable is gonna be lack
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  of growth. You're gonna be stagnant. You're gonna be stuck in that
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  echo chamber and not and not grow. Let's land the plane a little bit on
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  that. I like what you're saying there, but how do we help churches
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  get out of echo chambers and yet still hold their distinctives? And and we're
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  not asking churches to change their theologies or their practices,
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  but to grow and to create room for others in the community.
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  How do we actually do that? Because there's a bit
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  of territorialism around, well, this is what we believe.
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  And yet, can I just be honest with you? The more I'm in
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  different denominations and and around the tables, I love them
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  all. But when we we stay within our denominations
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  and we only affirm each other based on what we all believe
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  to be true and we don't expand out and and we don't
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  have room for listening to other perspectives. Don't get me wrong.
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  I've done homeschooling out of necessity too, but we become a bunch of denominational
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  homeschoolers. We don't get out. It it becomes insular,
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  and we start acting weird in community. We start saying things that
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  are destructive, not because I I don't think any denomination
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  wants to be a bigot, but it sure sounds a lot like
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  that. It sure sounds offensive, or it sure sounds territorial.
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  It sure sounds, like a power struggle when it comes out
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  because we're not necessarily in touch. We don't necessarily translate. And and
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  I'm not saying denominations are bad. I think there's actually beauty in
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  diversity. But there is a huge danger, and I
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  see that played out. And the cost of indifference
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  is in the community, not necessarily within the club around that table.
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  People are will affirm each other. There's confirmation bias. We're like, oh,
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  wow. We're we're we're endorsing certain behaviors and
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  beliefs and even vocabulary that just don't translate
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  into community. I don't think Jesus would have necessarily talked
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  like that with the good Samaritan. I think there's a few things that we can
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  do. I keep in thinking about church leaders. First of all,
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  get around a table and have conversations like this
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  about stuff. Mhmm. But the other thing, like, do what Jesus did and
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  serve one another. It's not necessarily about, you know what, let's
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  be ecumenical, let's do this unity thing and all get
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  together and just worship together, but actually
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  wash the feet of another pastor that you don't necessarily
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  agree with or you don't have the same theology with. Like, let's learn
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  to serve one another. And I think that that getting
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  low, like, that's that's what's gonna cause
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  transformation because that's what Jesus did.
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  Yeah. And and we can learn from each other without losing our
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  identity. I know my theology gets challenged every time
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  I can get and my worldview gets challenged every time I
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  encounter other people. That doesn't mean I just assimilate, and now all
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  of a sudden now I have that theology. I think if we're
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  rooted in Christ, the holy spirit can navigate that for
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  us. He can be trusted in those situations. We're we're not gonna get cooties
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  because we work alongside another denomination
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  that thinks maybe vastly and polar opposite than we do on a
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  certain issue. It's when we idolize those issues, those
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  theologies, those doctrines that we wanna fight for, we
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  miss out. The indifference there is that we miss out on
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  serving the other, serving each other, and loving each other, the
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  person that we disagree with. But, ultimately, the vulnerable
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  person, they don't get served because we're too consumed
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  with trying to set the world straight to think like us,
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  to behave like us, rather than working together.
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  And we gotta get over ourselves saying, you know what? If I serve this person,
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  other people might think I agree with him. We don't need we don't need to
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  agree with someone to serve them. We just need to love them and
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  get to know them a little bit. And I think then the differences
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  don't matter so much because we've seen the person that Jesus
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  sees. Amen to that. I I know I've been challenged
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  by people to say, k. Wendy, you're you're going to government
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  table. You're you're you're working with organizations that are not
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  not necessarily faith based. You're working with that denomination. Do you
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  know what they believe? Several times, I have the burn marks and the scar marks
• 19:32
  to prove it. I've been burned at the stake for those things, but I will
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  always side for the vulnerable. And it and it doesn't change who
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  I am and who I believe god to be, but there's always a sense of
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  mystery. There's always a sense of wonder. I don't have the corner on religion,
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  but God sure does. He can be trusted. It's not fun to
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  stick your neck out. However, I believe that's the
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  Jesus way has always had us to be with
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  the vulnerable, to sit in discomfort, to
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  have conversations and learn to have civil conversations. And now in
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  a a political time where we're we're hard pressed to find
• 20:08
  civil conversations. Right? But we're challenged to love the
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  other, to have civil discourse, not always agreeing,
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  with the other, and that's how we can grow together. But if at the
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  bottom line is that we're gonna love them no matter what, it
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  changes the outcome. We can do hard things. We can have hard conversations. We
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  can sit in discomfort. We can be with people that don't look like us, and
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  we can even get accusations from others thinking, oh, look who she's associate or
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  he's associating with. We can do that. That is the Jesus
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  way. That is how we are going to see growth within the church.
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  Because we're all in really big trouble if Jesus only served
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  people he agreed with. Mhmm. Let's land on the listener
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  challenge for this week then. So think of someone that you are very
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  different from, whether it's theologically or even
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  culturally, and think of a way that you can serve
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  that person or organization. And and do it. At
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  least do it once. Try it. And that's gonna be the challenge for this
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  week. But now it's time for that Care lingo segment. Here we go.
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  CareLingo. Today, I'm gonna choose an acronym that
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  sometimes gets thrown around in caregiver talk,
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  TBRI. So, Johan, can you tell
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  me what you think of when I say the word TBRI? It's
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  not that hard because I came onto the team a couple years ago now, and
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  I kept hearing this term, and I had no idea what you guys were talking
• 21:35
  about in the middle of a conversation. So this is a good one for our
• 21:39
  listeners to hear because I think we've probably thrown around the podcast in
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  previous episodes. I think so. Yeah. So
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  in true Johan fashion, I got two options, I think. TBRI,
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  if I was hearing it for the first time, I might think too
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  busy, rarely involved. You know, in the caregiver space,
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  sometimes you we get so busy, that we'd Like TMI.
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  Too busy, rarely involved. It could be a good text. Yeah. Exactly. It's
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  like Yeah. That guy is TBRI. He's too busy, rarely involved.
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  What Care Impact's doing, you know? We don't want TBRI
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  people, connected to Care Impact. Oh, no. That is
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  not even straight. Yeah. And then there's
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  the other one, TBRI. Totally burnt
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  out running on instinct. Now I I
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  sometimes relate to this one a little bit more. I'm not totally burnt out,
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  but, you know, sometimes you get busier times, like Mhmm. When
• 22:35
  that when that next podcast episode is due and you haven't started the
• 22:39
  edit yet, I'm running on instinct. Just, you know, click, click, click, click, click,
• 22:42
  click, and this episode's getting out tomorrow no matter what. Yeah.
• 22:46
  Yes. So TBRI. So what is the real definition? Well, let me
• 22:50
  translate here for you. I can put it's something that I utilize all the
• 22:54
  time. It it it's a filter that I use and we use as a a
• 22:57
  team here at Caro Impact, but it refers to trust based
• 23:02
  relational intervention. So t, trust be
• 23:05
  based relational intervention. It comes out of the
• 23:09
  Karen Purvis Institute for Child Development. So, originally, this
• 23:13
  is a term TBI, trust based relational intervention was referred
• 23:16
  to child development, particularly with foster kids,
• 23:20
  kids coming from difficult places in in adoption and some
• 23:24
  beautiful training out of that. Some of our team members have that training.
• 23:28
  Also, is the basis for, trauma free world, which we are
• 23:32
  doing trauma care, training across Canada using
• 23:36
  TBRI. So it's a trauma informed approach that is
• 23:39
  designed to help people in hard places heal through
• 23:43
  connection. Relationships is so important, and empowering
• 23:46
  them. And and being able to redirect where they are going. It's
• 23:50
  going beyond the behavior looking what are the what's behind the
• 23:54
  behavior that's causing this person such distress. And
• 23:57
  it's not about managing those behaviors. It's looking at the root
• 24:01
  causes, who have gone through significant loss
• 24:05
  or trauma, neglect. I would go further than that. I
• 24:08
  utilize it actually in how I negotiate with government or how I
• 24:12
  sit at the table with pastors. Those that are actually have
• 24:15
  fear responses, I'm like, k. What's going behind that behavior?
• 24:19
  The way people are are behaving, how do I connect with
• 24:23
  them? How do I relationally connect? Because Care Impact is all
• 24:27
  about breaking relational poverty across these sectors.
• 24:31
  And so we have to learn how do we connect before
• 24:35
  we bring, some possible solutions, direction,
• 24:39
  and supports into those areas. Because it's not just about fixing
• 24:42
  people, it's about connecting with people, and there's actually healing.
• 24:46
  And it's beautiful that it's it's when science catches up with
• 24:50
  God. There's a lot of neuroscience involved with TBRI,
• 24:54
  but it's all biblically based, and it's something that,
• 24:58
  is changing families. It's changing social systems. I I have
• 25:02
  asks from social services if we can bring some training
• 25:06
  in this nature. So that's TBRI. You have
• 25:09
  it. Trust based relational intervention. So,
• 25:13
  listeners, if you think you might know someone that needs to know what
• 25:17
  TBRI is, send them this episode and continue to share the
• 25:21
  podcast. Again, we are on Facebook. We got a Care Impact podcast
• 25:24
  group if you wanna go on there and get the latest updates. And maybe you
• 25:28
  have a word you wanna add add to this Care Lingo segment or
• 25:32
  whatever else, join our community there. And I think that's
• 25:35
  it, Wendy. We will see you next week. Later. Thank you for
• 25:39
  joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly
• 25:43
  episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our
• 25:46
  community, visit journeywithcare.ca, or find Care Impact
• 25:50
  on Facebook and Instagram. Or just check the show notes for these
• 25:53
  links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts,
• 25:57
  leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in
• 26:01
  faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a
• 26:04
  meaningful impact.