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E230: Submission That Liberates: The Obedience Paradox Explained w/Mary Stanford | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  What you teach is revolutionary in the best of ways.
• 0:02
  And the key to this book is that there is something
• 0:05
  irreplaceable. When it comes to the husband and
• 0:06
  wife, there is a unique way in which he gives.
• 0:09
  In a way that I can't. What is the obedience paradox?
• 0:12
  The paradox is that we tend to. I have heard horror stories
• 0:16
  though of women going to very traditional pastors and they say
• 0:19
  tough, do whatever he says. I really don't think blind
• 0:22
  obedience is actually obedience. If we like a guy because he'll
• 0:25
  do whatever we say and let me rule, don't expect him to stand
• 0:29
  up and engage. When you need him to.
• 0:30
  I think the most attractive thing to a guy when he comes to
• 0:34
  see his wife is. Hey everyone, welcome back to
• 0:39
  the Lila Ro Show. On today's episode, we're going
• 0:41
  to be talking all things biblical submission.
• 0:43
  What does it mean for wives to submit to their husbands?
• 0:46
  What does this teaching actually mean?
• 0:47
  What does it play out in a Christian marriage?
• 0:49
  We're going to be sitting down with Mary Stanford, who's
• 0:51
  amazing. She's the mother of seven
• 0:53
  children as well as a wife of 30 years.
• 0:56
  She's also a professor over at Christendom College, an author
• 0:59
  and a speaker, and she has written the book called The
• 1:02
  Obedience Paradox, where she gets into this question of what
• 1:05
  it means for wives to obey their husbands.
• 1:08
  I'm going to kick us off by reading from Ephesians 5, where
• 1:10
  Saint Paul talks about the roles in a marriage where a man and a
• 1:13
  woman come together and become husband and wife.
• 1:15
  Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.
• 1:19
  Wives, be subject to your husbands as to the Lord.
• 1:23
  For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head
• 1:25
  of the Church, His body, and his himself its Savior.
• 1:28
  As the Church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be
• 1:32
  subject in everything to their husbands.
• 1:35
  Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church, and
• 1:38
  gave Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, having
• 1:41
  cleansed her by the washing of water, with the Word, that He
• 1:44
  might present the Church to himself in splendor, without
• 1:46
  spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, that she might be holy
• 1:49
  and without blemish. Even so, husbands should love
• 1:51
  their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves
• 1:55
  himself. For no man ever hates his flesh,
• 1:57
  but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church,
• 2:00
  because we are members of His body.
• 2:02
  For this reason, a man shall leave his mother and father and
• 2:05
  be to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
• 2:08
  This mystery is a profound 1, and I'm saying that it refers to
• 2:11
  Christ and the church. However, let each one of you
• 2:14
  love his wife as himself and let the wife see that she also
• 2:18
  respects her husband. We're going to be exploring this
• 2:20
  passage and all things Biblical submission with Mary Stanford.
• 2:24
  And did you know that over 70% of you all are not yet
• 2:27
  subscribed to the YouTube channel?
• 2:28
  So make sure that you hit that subscribe button and ring that
• 2:30
  notification bell so you don't miss future episodes.
• 2:33
  Mary Stanford, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:35
  Thank you so much for having me. We were already talking and
• 2:38
  having a lot of fun, so I'm excited to continue the fun
• 2:40
  conversation now for the show. Thanks for coming in all the way
• 2:44
  from Virginia. Wow, it's been an adventure and
• 2:46
  I should have come sooner. It's just been amazing.
• 2:48
  Here, I love that. And you have a lot of
• 2:50
  responsibilities, which are all beautiful for our listeners.
• 2:54
  Tell us a little bit about your background personally and then
• 2:56
  professionally. Yes, well, I'm one of nine
• 2:59
  children and love that. Yeah.
• 3:01
  So growing up in a big family in a in a family that did some
• 3:04
  homeschooling, my mom did it for a long time.
• 3:06
  So I got to experience that back in the 80s when people thought
• 3:09
  it was weird. But that gave me confidence to
• 3:12
  homeschool my own kids. I'm now a mother of seven kids
• 3:16
  I've been married for. We're going to have our 25th
• 3:18
  anniversary next Sunday and. During, you know, after college,
• 3:24
  after studying philosophy, I, I got a master's from the John
• 3:28
  Paul 2 Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family.
• 3:30
  And that really, I realized that my, my heart was really in that
• 3:34
  area of understanding the human person and, you know.
• 3:39
  What we're made for, and that was when I was really introduced
• 3:42
  to the theology of the body. So that's also something that
• 3:44
  I've gone on to teach. I teach as an adjunct at
• 3:47
  Christendom College in Front Royal and where my husband is an
• 3:51
  English professor. And so it's just been beautiful
• 3:53
  to be homeschooling, to be a mother, but also to be a part of
• 3:59
  that college community where you're always giving talks and
• 4:01
  talking. To young people, and I don't
• 4:04
  know, it sort of keeps you, keeps you young, but they also
• 4:07
  ask good questions, right? I find that so much of my own
• 4:10
  teaching has been. Improved by the constant
• 4:14
  questioning of students, so I'm really grateful for that.
• 4:18
  Well, what you teach is revolutionary in the best of
• 4:20
  ways for the current cultural climate we're in.
• 4:24
  And I think some people might write it off as like religious
• 4:27
  over here, but it's not about a religion per SE, as it is about
• 4:31
  truth and the natural law and what we can observe about human
• 4:34
  behavior and human identity from in just the natural world.
• 4:38
  So you have this book, The Obedience Paradox.
• 4:41
  So we're going to talk about this today as well as a lot of
• 4:44
  other things, finding true marriage, finding true freedom
• 4:48
  in marriage. And you spend a whole book
• 4:51
  tackling that little pesky verse that some people got really
• 4:56
  offended by about submission in marriage.
• 4:59
  And I think a lot of people are quick to say, oh, it's a mutual
• 5:03
  submission. And yes, there's a certainly
• 5:05
  elements of mutual submission, of course, but they're very
• 5:07
  clear and different directives that are given by Saint Paul to
• 5:14
  women versus men in a marriage. Yes, and it it might seem sort
• 5:19
  of, I don't know, crazy or just, you know, suicidal to to talk
• 5:24
  about this topic, but I figure if we're really going to
• 5:28
  understand marriage and we see how much is at stake with the
• 5:30
  family and our culture and. And needing to nurture healthy
• 5:34
  families, that understanding what that means and that image
• 5:39
  of husbands loving your wives as Christ loved the church.
• 5:42
  We need to get that right and we need to understand it
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  biblically. We need to understand sort of
• 5:48
  what this means in a way that sort of transcends the culture
• 5:55
  because it's. Supposed to be true in every
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  age, sort of. You know, how do we?
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  Live this what does it look like?
• 6:01
  What does it mean and what does it not mean.
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  So I personally just you know, between scripture, John Paul's
• 6:08
  theology of the body. A lot of the insights that Edith
• 6:11
  Stein, Saint Teresa, Benedict of the Cross had in terms of sort
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  of the physical differences between men and women reflecting
• 6:20
  underlying spiritual, psychological differences that
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  really I think. It gives us a framework and a
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  language to talk about this in a way that hopefully is not only
• 6:34
  not offensive but also hopefully fruitful in practical ways.
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  I love that. So here's a question for you.
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  You've been married 25 years. It sounds like you said you're 1
• 6:43
  of did you say 8 kids? I'm one of nine.
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  Oh, you're 1? Of nine kids and you have seven
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  of your own. Did you grow up in an intact
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  family? If I may, if I may ask, if your
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  parents were married? Absolutely.
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  I mean, if they had nine kids, they probably stuck together.
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  Exactly. No thanks.
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  Be to God, be to God. And that to me is huge.
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  And I will say this, many people have come to me, you know, for
• 7:04
  the book or for advice on this topic simply because they were
• 7:08
  not blessed to have this dynamic modeled for them, right?
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  Whether it was a difficult marriage or a non marriage or
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  divorce or something that a lot of the young people today who
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  are desiring to live in a biblical.
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  Way. But they don't know what it
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  looks like. And so there's sort of a there's
• 7:24
  a lot of questions about what does it mean to submit?
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  You know, does it rob me of my dignity or what does headship
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  mean? Does it mean he makes all the
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  decisions or what does this look like?
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  So I think that having my own parents have model a healthy
• 7:39
  marriage was everything. How many years married for?
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  Your parents, so they are. I think they're at 53 this year.
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  Yes, and you can you look at them as a role model marriage in
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  your marriage. You're like, I look at my
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  parents, which it's so rare for people to be able to say that
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  today about their parents. Not that it's not possible, not
• 7:54
  that there aren't. Some people are like really
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  admire their parents marriage, but a lot of people who don't
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  admire their parents marriage or lack of marriage.
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  Absolutely. And so there's a lot of fear.
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  And someone once raised the question about seminarians, you
• 8:09
  know, they have to study for the priesthood for many, many years.
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  And why is it that a, you know, a Catholic couple can get
• 8:14
  married in six months or even less if they have special
• 8:17
  permission? And well, the church is always
• 8:19
  understood that observing your parents marriage for your, you
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  know, a decade or two, right? Your, your, your, your young
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  life was preparation for marriage.
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  And so because of the situation we're in today, so many people
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  don't quite have that. So they're definitely looking
• 8:37
  for answers. They want good things and they
• 8:39
  want to have a healthy marriage. But if they haven't had it
• 8:42
  modeled, it's very scary. It's incredible the power of
• 8:46
  justice being around the health. You know, there's that saying
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  you become the most like the four or five people you hang out
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  with. That's who you most become like
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  you're kind of the composite of the people you hang out with.
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  There's certainly truth to that. I mean, it's not the full
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  picture, but it's true to like the people that raise you, of
• 9:04
  course, imprint you. Now you can do what you want
• 9:07
  with that. In your older years, you can
• 9:09
  make choices about the good, the bad, you know, how to heal from
• 9:12
  wounds or lack of formation. And some of the best and
• 9:15
  greatest souls and even teachers are those that have overcome
• 9:18
  challenges of from their childhood, childhood.
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  But regardless, we are impacted by our childhoods and by the
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  models we're given. So I love what you just said
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  that this, this idea of you have your training already when you
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  are preparing for marriage in terms of how you have been just
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  impacted, influenced by marriages closest to you.
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  And it and it also just reminds me of the power of mentorship
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  and just the need for us all to seek out mentorship, but
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  particularly those of us who feel that there were some things
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  lacking in the models we've had. Discount, as you put it,
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  sometimes we have negative experiences or maybe we went
• 9:53
  into some habits with our own parents that we don't want to
• 9:56
  replicate. And that's that can be good too,
• 9:59
  right? You can say, I know that I want
• 10:00
  to do this or that differently and then that's important.
• 10:03
  I'm sure there's probably things my own kids will say, OK, we
• 10:05
  love my parents marriage, but I think I want to do this a little
• 10:07
  differently and that's OK too. But certainly, at least for me,
• 10:14
  when you see healthy marriages, and even if it's not your
• 10:16
  parents, if there's mentor couples and my husband and I
• 10:18
  meet with couples all the time just to sort of have an
• 10:20
  alternative couple for couples that are preparing for marriage.
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  It's good to see that because I think it gives you hope.
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  It can be done. It can be done.
• 10:29
  You can have a good and healthy marriage between two imperfect
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  people, right? And so for those who have been,
• 10:35
  who haven't had that in their own family, you just, you want
• 10:38
  to give them hope that it is possible.
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  delivered. What we're and we're going to
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  get into the book that you wrote, which is very, you know,
• 11:56
  beautifully philosophical really about why we have this Christian
• 12:00
  teaching about submission in marriage, what it actually
• 12:03
  means. But I want to kind of start
• 12:05
  foundationally back to you personally in your view of the
• 12:07
  of all this, in your own experience, what were the things
• 12:10
  in your parents marriage that you feel that you can identify
• 12:14
  as these were kind of key successes in how in their
• 12:18
  dynamic that you have tried to implement in your own marriage?
• 12:22
  That's a great question. I think that one of them was
• 12:28
  cultivating an attitude of respect toward my dad.
• 12:33
  It was, you know, always. Understood.
• 12:36
  Yeah, my mom and dad didn't agree about everything, but
• 12:39
  like. My mom would speak of my dad in
• 12:42
  a respectful way that would it just communicated to us how how
• 12:45
  important that was. I didn't understand at the time,
• 12:48
  as I've come to sort of study and try to explain exactly what
• 12:53
  an attitude, a disposition of respect does in a particular way
• 12:56
  for a man. It was just, this is Dad, this
• 12:59
  is how we treat him right? What did that look like?
• 13:01
  What are some practical examples of like what it looked like to
• 13:04
  show respect as a wife, your mother showing that respect to
• 13:08
  your. Father, I think it's being
• 13:10
  attentive efforts she made you know every.
• 13:12
  Night I I I. Look back and my mom had so many
• 13:15
  kids and she again was sort of an an early homeschooling mom.
• 13:17
  She had a lot going. But but we had dinner every
• 13:21
  night. We waited.
• 13:22
  My dad sometimes worked late. We waited late, we set the
• 13:25
  table. We it was just sort of like
• 13:27
  this. We wait till dad gets home,
• 13:29
  right? Just a show of respect, talking,
• 13:32
  you know, just. Heeding what he.
• 13:33
  Had to say, Dad said to do this. Guys, come on.
• 13:35
  You know, just sort of it was, it wasn't.
• 13:38
  Overt, but you you felt it, you experienced it and and then you
• 13:42
  know, from my dad to my mom, you know, if my mom, you don't
• 13:46
  believe me even the decision to home school, I would say that
• 13:48
  was definitely that came from my mom.
• 13:50
  Her instincts about what were going on at our parochial
• 13:53
  schools in the 80s. They were spot on.
• 13:56
  There was a lot of stuff that was harmful, I think.
• 14:00
  And, and she said, you know, I want to do this thing.
• 14:03
  And I think my dad probably thought, oh boy, what?
• 14:06
  How? Strange, you know.
• 14:07
  Again, it was very it. Was a big deal at the time and
• 14:12
  and yet he trusted her he trusted her instincts when it
• 14:15
  came to her kids and their kids, right but she.
• 14:19
  Had special gifts, I think of intuition as you know Edith
• 14:22
  Stein talks about. That moral sense about what's
• 14:25
  good for kids. She had it big time and my dad
• 14:28
  listened to her and it was scary.
• 14:31
  I remember she said she did a rosary every day for a year that
• 14:34
  dad would come around because she knew they both had to be on
• 14:36
  board. Did.
• 14:37
  He did. Did your?
• 14:39
  Dad know that your mother was praying the rosary daily for him
• 14:42
  to change his mind. I don't.
• 14:43
  Think so I. I'll need to confirm on that
• 14:45
  after this, but. But what I also appreciate about
• 14:48
  that. Being like, oh, you won't let me
• 14:50
  home school. It was more like you're not on
• 14:52
  the same page as me. Like, come on, fight, you know,
• 14:54
  fight, fight, fight. It was more like, I love you.
• 14:56
  Yeah. Let's pray about it.
• 14:57
  Thank you for considering. OK, let's.
• 14:59
  Let's think about it. I'd still love to do it.
• 15:01
  I know that her posture it sounds like was a gracious.
• 15:04
  It was huge because I think if she.
• 15:05
  Tried to railroad him into it right this I mean that back
• 15:09
  there's a whole story that I share in the book about when you
• 15:12
  try to railroad your husband into something and.
• 15:14
  And because she she did, she respected it him, and she knew
• 15:18
  that she couldn't do this alone. So for her part, it was patience
• 15:23
  of communication, right? She didn't just pray, she pray
• 15:26
  and she spoke and she presented and she tried to convince, you
• 15:29
  know, So she was bringing all of her powers to the table, but at
• 15:32
  the same time, respecting and praying and offering, right?
• 15:35
  And for my dad's part, though, coming around to that, to me it
• 15:39
  says I trust you. I trust the instincts you have
• 15:42
  about our kids. And of course, he wanted to make
• 15:44
  sure, you know, he wanted to make sure he was doing his duty.
• 15:47
  You know, you have a duty to educate your kids properly and
• 15:50
  you know, are we setting the, again, this is back in the 80s,
• 15:52
  Are we setting themselves, ourselves up for them to not
• 15:55
  transition back into school when eventually they go to high
• 15:57
  school or college? You know, he, he had the
• 15:59
  questions and he was concerned about our future.
• 16:01
  So his, any hesitation or reservations he had were again,
• 16:06
  part of his sense of responsibility.
• 16:08
  So I I saw that. I saw how he trusted her.
• 16:12
  And I saw then once he'd made the decision and he's trusted,
• 16:16
  you know, what my mom would say about this or that he worked his
• 16:19
  tail off. He worked.
• 16:21
  And so that that dynamic was very beautiful.
• 16:26
  And I it helps me to recognize like, yeah, even if I think.
• 16:31
  There's something really important.
• 16:34
  It's incumbent upon me to try to communicate that, but also to
• 16:38
  recognize husbands need to take ownership.
• 16:41
  If they're not taking ownership, they're not fully invested.
• 16:45
  You can't do it alone. You cannot do it alone.
• 16:49
  And I've had mothers come to me and say I'm having problems
• 16:53
  getting my husband engaged. I I need him to be engaged.
• 16:56
  You know you got teenagers. Whatever it is.
• 16:59
  And sometimes, sometimes it's because you didn't think you
• 17:04
  needed him engaged earlier because you thought you had it
• 17:06
  covered you. Just went to your.
• 17:07
  You went to your route without careful engagement.
• 17:10
  And then when you realize, oh, I do need him.
• 17:13
  And I spoke. And you're mad that he's not
• 17:14
  there and you're. Mad and I spoke to a priest
• 17:16
  about this and he said he had a woman come say something similar
• 17:22
  and he's he challenged her. He said has he always been this
• 17:25
  way? And she said, what kind of?
• 17:28
  And he's, he said, is that why you married him?
• 17:30
  Because he let you take the reins and call all the shots?
• 17:34
  That was probably something that was attractive.
• 17:35
  To you back when you married him.
• 17:37
  And she said, actually, yeah. And so it even goes back to the
• 17:43
  kind of people we decide to date and marry if we're if.
• 17:46
  We like a guy because he'll do whatever we say and let me rule
• 17:51
  right? Don't expect him to stand up and
• 17:53
  engage when you need him to. So in that conversation, she
• 17:57
  realized he hadn't changed much. It was she that had changed and
• 18:00
  it had become open to the. Realization that a family is a
• 18:03
  community and you can't do it alone, right?
• 18:05
  That whole What did she do? I, I, I don't know, he didn't
• 18:09
  follow up with me, but we, I was talking about this very thing
• 18:12
  and he kind of shared that with me and I thought, wow, OK, it's
• 18:15
  important because, you know, I have college kids and there's,
• 18:19
  you know, I know many young women that are, you know, of
• 18:21
  course, seeking to meet wonderful guys.
• 18:23
  Everybody wants the Prince Charming, right?
• 18:25
  Everybody, every girl will say. Of course I want a Prince
• 18:28
  Charming. I want some wonderful guy to lay
• 18:30
  down his life for me. But they're not willing to see
• 18:34
  that you don't. A Prince Charming isn't built in
• 18:37
  a night, right? Like I can't just put it all on
• 18:38
  the line. It's got to be years of little
• 18:40
  risks, little laying it on the lines, right?
• 18:43
  We have to allow our young men to take responsibility.
• 18:47
  Have. Responsibility lead at times and
• 18:50
  things. That slowly build their
• 18:52
  confidence. And so I think there's all sorts
• 18:54
  of ways that, you know, in our in our dating culture today
• 18:57
  that's not happening. And so then suddenly we want
• 19:01
  guys to step up. And some of.
• 19:03
  Them don't feel a quiz I really want to explore that more with
• 19:05
  you and the posture women should have both in dating and
• 19:07
  marriage. I mean that's of course a big
• 19:09
  part of the of the book, but I have to ask one more question
• 19:11
  about your parents marriage. So thanks for like sharing about
• 19:14
  it because it's, I just find these models incredibly helpful
• 19:17
  to talk about them in like practical details too, because
• 19:21
  stories are so powerful and shaping our understanding of
• 19:24
  ourselves in the world. And when we're only hearing bad
• 19:26
  stories or broken stories and we're not hearing like what the
• 19:30
  health looks like, the healthy dynamics, it's very hard to try
• 19:34
  to mimic it or do the do the healthy thing like 'cause we're
• 19:37
  just inventing it on our own, like, you know, trying to
• 19:38
  experiment, you know, claw our way through the dark.
• 19:41
  So back to your parents. Did you ever see them fight?
• 19:44
  And if so, what did fighting or conflict look like?
• 19:47
  And then what did conflict potential resolution look like
• 19:49
  with your parents? Yeah, I think it is.
• 19:52
  You know, I was a very sensitive child that if my parents even
• 19:55
  had a small argument, I remember being upset, very upset by it,
• 19:58
  because I thought. Oh, but I think it's important
• 20:04
  that of course we're all human. And so most people will see
• 20:07
  their parents have a conflict. But it's important then to see
• 20:12
  them make up my parents, you know, again, Irish, Italian.
• 20:17
  There was a little bit of that sometimes if they had a
• 20:20
  disagreement, sometimes things got a little emotional, but but
• 20:24
  they were not afraid to to kiss and give each other a big hug.
• 20:27
  They were not afraid to be affectionate in front of us
• 20:28
  either. And I still remember how how my
• 20:31
  heart would feel if my parents. You know, you'd feel a little
• 20:34
  embarrassed, but it was like. You felt so happy, you felt so
• 20:37
  secure knowing that they would be affectionate and hug and and
• 20:42
  that things didn't linger, right?
• 20:44
  If there was something OK. But then there's a new day.
• 20:47
  And it just gives kids that sense of OK, consistency and
• 20:51
  peace. But also, yeah, my parents could
• 20:55
  work through this or that, right?
• 20:56
  We need that model too. We need disagreements modeled.
• 21:00
  And and again, you can't always do it perfectly, but I know some
• 21:03
  people will say, oh, never fight in front of your kids.
• 21:05
  There is an an importance to showing United front, but it I
• 21:09
  don't think it means they can never witness.
• 21:11
  Conflict or disagreement? Yeah.
• 21:13
  But I definitely would also say in big things with with us as a
• 21:17
  family, they would present a united front.
• 21:20
  You don't want to undermine each other, you know.
• 21:22
  Well, I really wanted to let you go to this party, but dad didn't
• 21:25
  or vice versa. Well, you know.
• 21:27
  Just. Looks like backstabbing.
• 21:28
  Honestly, it's. So you know, it's it's.
• 21:31
  Your mother, Your father. No, and and that just it it
• 21:35
  children only suffer when you do that, right?
• 21:37
  Because it, it divides and, and we really do, someone wrote
• 21:42
  once, and I don't know who, that when children love their
• 21:46
  parents, that they don't actually love them as two
• 21:48
  separate persons. They actually sort of love them
• 21:51
  as one. And of course their identity is
• 21:53
  so bound up in that relationship.
• 21:55
  And so hence, right when that relationship is ours or
• 21:58
  separates it, it's really the child that's feeling torn apart.
• 22:01
  And so it doesn't matter what your pride is saying, you're a
• 22:05
  united front. And again, some of that comes in
• 22:08
  with the submission stuff that I'm going to be talking about.
• 22:10
  But but either way, and I know my and my husband does it for
• 22:13
  me. They they do it for each other.
• 22:15
  You know, when you're having you don't undermine one another.
• 22:20
  But yes, still, I don't think that is inconsistent with
• 22:22
  sometimes witnessing A disagreement, even if things get
• 22:26
  a little heated. But you know, we apologize.
• 22:29
  Kids need to see apologies. I think there is nothing so
• 22:33
  disarming as like a genuinely humble apology, because when
• 22:37
  someone gives that to you humbly not an I'm sorry, but right, but
• 22:42
  a humble apology, it disarms you and it it frees you to say, you
• 22:47
  know, I'm sorry too. I probably overreacted or it, it
• 22:50
  just, it's almost like it just gives you the freedom to
• 22:53
  suddenly also apologize. Humble yourself, because
• 22:56
  sometimes we're afraid if we apologize that my credibility is
• 22:59
  shot. Right.
• 23:01
  If I if I say I was wrong about this, no one's ever going to
• 23:03
  trust me again. That's not true.
• 23:06
  So witnessing apologies, I think that was something I did witness
• 23:09
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  I love that. So for the obedience paradox,
• 24:14
  what is the obedience paradox? This is the title of your book.
• 24:17
  Right. And I think the paradox is that
• 24:20
  we tend to associate obedience with a lack of freedom, right?
• 24:27
  Somehow, if you have to obey, does that mean you're sort of
• 24:32
  sub personal? You're not an equal, you're not
• 24:34
  free, you are bound to do whatever he says or whatever.
• 24:38
  And so the paradox is I would say that's not actually the
• 24:42
  case. As a matter of fact, to actually
• 24:45
  obey, to say to someone just in general, whether we're talking
• 24:49
  about God or in a situation to say, I want what you want,
• 24:55
  right? Thy will be done.
• 24:58
  I'm saying that with my will, right?
• 24:59
  Only a free creature can do that, right?
• 25:02
  Only a free creature. It's really not appropriate to
• 25:05
  even speak of creatures that don't have freedom as obeying.
• 25:09
  You know, we talked about doggy obedient school.
• 25:11
  We talked about maybe the the planets obeying the laws of
• 25:14
  nature. That's that's really just in a
• 25:17
  it's an analogy. It's not what obedience actually
• 25:19
  means, right? It means freely saying, yeah, I
• 25:23
  want to make your well, my well. And so not only does it require
• 25:26
  a free creature, but it also opens us to the possibility of
• 25:31
  spiritual union, whether it's with God, with a spouse, as
• 25:35
  friendships, you know. So this idea of obedience, I
• 25:40
  think biblically is 100% linked with this notion of receptivity.
• 25:45
  I mean, even the word obedience comes from the word to hear.
• 25:49
  And every time our Lord in Scripture talks about hearing
• 25:53
  and receiving, He always associates it with the bearing
• 25:57
  of fruit, right? He who hears my word and keeps
• 26:00
  it, he it is that will bear much fruit.
• 26:03
  It's this receptivity. Saint Elizabeth when she's
• 26:06
  praising Our Lady in the Visitation says blessed is she
• 26:09
  who believed, right? What she heard, what was told to
• 26:13
  her and blessed is the fruit of her womb.
• 26:16
  So there is a link between hearing between receiving and
• 26:21
  and embracing and bearing fruit. And so in the book really the
• 26:26
  the paradigm that I use, which again, I I think is biblical.
• 26:32
  It it it is consistent with the relationship between Christ and
• 26:35
  the Church is that there is between Christ and the Church.
• 26:38
  Described as bridegroom and bride.
• 26:41
  There is a dynamic of giving, of generous initiation and willful
• 26:49
  receptivity. That is what we see physically,
• 26:53
  right? In the inner marriage, right?
• 26:56
  But only through that it's, there's an asymmetry, right?
• 27:00
  There has to be this element of something generative and
• 27:03
  something receptive that creates a union that can bear fruit.
• 27:07
  And so we see it in the physical world we see it in.
• 27:10
  You know the physical aspect of marriage but our Lord talks
• 27:13
  about. You know, a seed falling on good
• 27:16
  soil. He talks about a branch clinging
• 27:19
  to a vine. If it doesn't receive, it won't
• 27:22
  bear fruit. And so there must be something
• 27:25
  when we're talking about wives submitting to their husbands.
• 27:30
  It's a disposition of receptivity.
• 27:33
  And again, we tend to sort of think.
• 27:35
  Oh, it it means that he has to call all the shots and she has
• 27:39
  to blindly obey. No, no, we can talk about that.
• 27:43
  We can. Talk about decision making, but
• 27:44
  in the wider context of marriage and everyday life, what does it
• 27:49
  mean to have a receptive disposition?
• 27:53
  What does it look like in the everyday?
• 27:56
  And how is it that women maybe by nature have some gifts in
• 28:01
  that category already, right? We see that our our bodies
• 28:04
  mirror it, right But what does it look like?
• 28:06
  What are some abilities that women have?
• 28:10
  And again, we're being, I'm generalizing here, but I think
• 28:13
  usually when you talk about it and you you think about everyday
• 28:17
  examples, you say, OK, I do see that there is something, some
• 28:22
  receptive gifts that that the feminine brings to the table
• 28:26
  that makes the family work. Right.
• 28:29
  And both. I mean, you can't do 1 without
• 28:31
  the other. That's what complementarity is.
• 28:32
  It's something that in you is only really activated by
• 28:35
  something that only they have. So when you were thinking about
• 28:40
  writing this, what was the impetus?
• 28:42
  Did you was it the couples that you and your husband were
• 28:44
  mentoring, these young Christian couples that were preparing for
• 28:48
  marriage and and the girls were all like, I want to get married,
• 28:51
  but I don't know about this submit thing.
• 28:53
  What does that even mean? What was the?
• 28:56
  It's so strange. Personally, as a student, I
• 28:59
  always wanted to understand it and I was captivated by this
• 29:02
  notion of of gift and receptivity.
• 29:04
  There's really. It's so.
• 29:06
  Philosophically and theologically rich that that was
• 29:09
  something. That I had.
• 29:10
  Really dwelt upon a lot when I was at the JP 2 Institute and
• 29:15
  and I remember even at the time as a grad student I I did.
• 29:18
  A paper on it. I wanted to understand what what
• 29:20
  does this? Mean headship and submission.
• 29:22
  So it was kind of a personal question.
• 29:24
  And just to just to make sure I'm tracking when you say, what
• 29:26
  does this mean? And I love obviously the framing
• 29:28
  of gift and receptivity that John Paul the second uses in
• 29:31
  theology of the body. We are gifts, the, the, the
• 29:34
  natural feminine ability to receive.
• 29:36
  And that's like physically the act of intimacy of sex.
• 29:40
  That's what it is. But it's also like this
• 29:41
  emotional, psychological, spiritual receptivity as well.
• 29:45
  But are you saying that you are really kind of trying to Plumb
• 29:49
  the depths of that particular Let me pull up the Bible verse
• 29:52
  about submission really quick. Ephesians 5 Ephesians was
• 29:56
  Ephesians 5 really yes what you were wrestling with or I.
• 30:00
  Don't think I was wrestling. With it personally in the sense
• 30:02
  because I had witnessed my parents and it was healthy.
• 30:05
  I I. I didn't feel threatened by it,
• 30:07
  but I I would notice that sometimes, like priests, when
• 30:11
  that epistle would come around, priests were has tended to be
• 30:13
  hesitant. Either they.
• 30:15
  Then there's even at one point there was something bracketed
• 30:17
  out where like they didn't have to say that part.
• 30:20
  And then if they did have the courage to preach on it, they
• 30:23
  would usually spend most of the homily sort of cushioning it by
• 30:26
  saying, yes, but but look at the men.
• 30:28
  You know, they're called to give and to lay down their life,
• 30:30
  which is again, wonderful, huge risky.
• 30:34
  This is everything like this is actually what men need to be
• 30:36
  like dwelling on. Is that call Wow right?
• 30:40
  What about the women? We have to do our part.
• 30:42
  Then what does it mean? But I thought if all you keep
• 30:44
  saying is that he is called to make sacrificial gift, then
• 30:47
  logic dictates the response to a gift is receiving and So what
• 30:52
  does that look like and what are some?
• 30:54
  Things that even in our fallen nature as women kind of inhibit
• 30:58
  our receptivity, right? What, what can we work on?
• 31:00
  You sort of want bride and groom to be asking what can I work on
• 31:04
  so when you. Hear a young man saying, I can't
• 31:06
  wait to be head of the house. I want a woman who will submit.
• 31:09
  That sometimes could come off as a little bit alarming because
• 31:13
  instead of saying, how can I find a woman who will submit?
• 31:16
  You don't need to worry about that just yet.
• 31:18
  Let's worry about what it What can I bring?
• 31:21
  What do I have to offer and how can I lay it down?
• 31:23
  How can I serve her? And she's going to be moved by
• 31:27
  that and she's going to respect that.
• 31:28
  And I'm telling you, most women are going to want to receive
• 31:33
  that. But again, sometimes we
• 31:34
  ourselves haven't done enough self examination.
• 31:36
  And sometimes we can hurt and wound the men in our lives and
• 31:38
  dismiss them. And because we don't realize
• 31:42
  when we fail to be receptive, how they experience that because
• 31:46
  their identity is very bound up in what they have to offer.
• 31:49
  And again, that's sort of a something that I tie in that
• 31:51
  goes in with our physical differences as well, right?
• 31:54
  A man, his physical design is meant to be generative.
• 31:59
  It's to act on the world beyond himself physically.
• 32:03
  Our design is uniquely to receive and nurture something
• 32:07
  inwardly, literally, physically, right?
• 32:09
  And so recognizing that so much of a man's identity is bound up
• 32:15
  in what he does. Whereas for us, it's more
• 32:17
  interior, right? We have different body.
• 32:19
  I don't want to say different body, soul relationships, but
• 32:22
  that's sort of how Edith Stein says it.
• 32:23
  She says a man tends to view his body in some ways as an
• 32:26
  instrument. That's not totally false.
• 32:29
  Our body has an instrumental quality.
• 32:31
  Women tend to identify with our bodies.
• 32:34
  Right, We get that. We see a body, we see a person.
• 32:37
  There's something very beautiful about that.
• 32:39
  But there could be something dangerous.
• 32:40
  About that, too, we can think that we're just a body, but
• 32:43
  these are two different emphases that come out in the gift
• 32:46
  dynamic, right? If we don't receive well what
• 32:49
  he's offering, we're not receiving him well.
• 32:53
  So I think that in this dynamic, I was personally intrigued by
• 32:57
  its beauty and depth. I wanted to know more in an
• 33:00
  intellectual way if I could explain it better, because there
• 33:03
  was people that were saying, oh, that's not a thing, submission
• 33:06
  will be, it's not a thing. But why couldn't anybody tell me
• 33:08
  what it meant? And so then I would incorporate.
• 33:11
  It there is. When I would teach my course on
• 33:13
  John Paul's Theology of the Body, he touches on it in his
• 33:16
  Theology of the Body. He says a few really important
• 33:18
  things, but but it's not the. It's not the.
• 33:21
  Bulk of it. But so I, I sort of felt
• 33:24
  inspired to keep explaining. So I had students ask me what is
• 33:27
  this? What is this?
• 33:28
  And people would ask me to give talks on it.
• 33:29
  I didn't even know why it kept coming to me.
• 33:32
  And so over time with the questions and with the
• 33:35
  challenges, this book came out. I really, I really like it
• 33:39
  wasn't that I was struggling personally, but then looking
• 33:41
  back at my own marriage, I could.
• 33:42
  See. Oh, that's.
• 33:45
  That's why I hurt my husband's feelings when I said that.
• 33:47
  Or oh, that's why that made such a difference to him.
• 33:50
  You know, things that maybe I was doing instinctively or I
• 33:53
  things I didn't do and I realized.
• 33:55
  Oh, This is why. So it's my book is sort of a
• 33:58
  combination. It's scholarly, but it's also
• 34:00
  practical. And it's also like, I think
• 34:02
  there was I, I, I don't think, I think if I tried to write this
• 34:06
  25 years ago, oh Lord, I don't even want to know, right?
• 34:10
  Because I think it was definitely formed by my
• 34:12
  experience and of trying to be a wife and a Good Wife and and
• 34:16
  failing and trying again. So.
• 34:19
  I have noticed what you're saying earlier.
• 34:21
  Is this this fear of even talking about a woman's role
• 34:26
  because we're so quick to say, well, yeah, this woman has a
• 34:29
  role, but men do too. What about the men?
• 34:31
  What do they have to do? And you can also get a woman's
• 34:34
  role really wrong. Yes.
• 34:36
  And I think that's part of where the fear comes in because it has
• 34:39
  been used in a way to humiliate and harm in some ways
• 34:44
  historically. And it also has been used today
• 34:46
  in a way to, you know, liberate to a way where we become these
• 34:51
  dominating, really horrible maniacs.
• 34:54
  I mean, the the empowered woman today, according to kind of
• 34:57
  mainstream narratives, is like abortion on demand, sleep with
• 35:01
  whoever I want. I'm not going to submit to a
• 35:03
  man. Children are a burden.
• 35:06
  You know, maybe I'll have one or two, but I'm going to have my
• 35:08
  career. And if that's the most important
• 35:09
  thing and I can do whatever I want.
• 35:11
  And it's all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me.
• 35:13
  And it's it's exhausting, quite frankly, not life giving for
• 35:16
  women because it's not how we were designed.
• 35:18
  But then there's this flip side of like, well, then you're just
• 35:20
  going to be the little Suzie Q homemaker that has no autonomy,
• 35:25
  no interest, no desires outside of just this like very
• 35:30
  exhausting day in, day out toil. And you have this domineering
• 35:33
  husband or this no good husband that you have to submit to.
• 35:36
  So it's. Like she's like.
• 35:38
  Those are the options extremes and how do we right how do I
• 35:42
  live because both of those look. Pretty scary.
• 35:44
  And again, I think it's my opinion that at least the giving
• 35:50
  receiving languages, it takes a little bit.
• 35:53
  It it helps to make a distinction because it also
• 35:55
  says, OK, what what is a gift, right?
• 35:59
  It hopefully that would discount things like abuse, right?
• 36:03
  Abuse, you know? Verbal or physical right, that
• 36:07
  is not a gift, right? If anything that robs it takes
• 36:10
  it robs a woman of. Her dignity.
• 36:13
  It's that's not a gift, right? You don't have to submit to
• 36:16
  abuse. So it helps us to sort of say,
• 36:19
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  That's we heart nutrition.com. So you're saying there's
• 37:20
  parameters that exist for what it even means to submit.
• 37:24
  And I think this is where the confusion lies.
• 37:26
  Yes, right. Like what does it mean to
• 37:28
  submit? And there's a whole bunch of
• 37:29
  questions that come from that. If I say what about abusive type
• 37:32
  of behaviors? There's one thing.
• 37:33
  And then what about the managers not taking leadership and your
• 37:36
  feminine intuition is being like, I think we got to make a
• 37:39
  move here. And then of course, there's a
• 37:41
  situation where the guy is kind of all over to the place.
• 37:43
  So it's like you're submitting to who?
• 37:46
  No man is perfect. Yes, every man has their
• 37:49
  challenges and no woman is perfect, obviously.
• 37:51
  So there's two imperfect people here.
• 37:53
  One has to submit to the other. What does that even mean?
• 37:55
  And how do you deal with all of these circumstances that might
• 37:59
  arise or or issues that the people might have?
• 38:02
  Yes, I think so. Break it down for.
• 38:03
  Us, So I would say #1. One way in which we fall into
• 38:08
  this fear of, oh goodness, does this mean he makes every
• 38:11
  decision and tells me what to do and I have no autonomy and no
• 38:13
  respect. You know #1 no, I would, I
• 38:16
  would. I want to go there.
• 38:17
  I want to talk about what I would call like final state
• 38:21
  decisions, right? When we all as couples at some
• 38:23
  point reach kind of an impasse where I think this is the best
• 38:27
  course of action. I think this is the best.
• 38:28
  What do we do? OK, so we'll.
• 38:30
  Go there. But but number one, that that
• 38:33
  doesn't happen every day if it happens every day.
• 38:36
  Maybe there's an issue going on? But what do you what do?
• 38:39
  You mean like that couples would be at loggerheads every single
• 38:42
  day about a decision, right? Because when I think of the
• 38:46
  course of my marriage, I can't think of, you know, I can
• 38:52
  probably count on one hand the amount of like.
• 38:54
  All right here. This is a big decision regarding
• 38:56
  our family and and our family's future.
• 38:58
  And I think this is the best and he thinks this is the best, and
• 39:02
  we got to make a decision. And I gave it to him.
• 39:05
  Like if that's happening every day, it just seems like there's
• 39:08
  a lack of trust in that relationship.
• 39:10
  Meaning that's happening every day, then there's a
• 39:13
  micromanaging that's happening inherent.
• 39:15
  Which I think it's probably coming from a lack of trust,
• 39:18
  right? And so when you think about
• 39:21
  every day in and day out, right? I make tons of decisions for my
• 39:25
  kids, for dinner, for things like that, right?
• 39:28
  And guess what? Most of them we don't even talk
• 39:30
  about because my husband trusts me and I trust him.
• 39:33
  So we're not always sort of second guessing each other.
• 39:36
  So. When you think about a dynamic
• 39:38
  of gift, anytime there's a a free offering and a free
• 39:41
  receiving, it is trust. That is the glue that holds any
• 39:46
  gift dynamic together, the person who is.
• 39:50
  Sort of doing the offering is trusting that what he's he or
• 39:53
  she is doing is going to be received well and appreciated,
• 39:56
  right? We're not guaranteed that right?
• 39:58
  You can give somebody a gift and have them reject it.
• 40:00
  You can be hurt, right? As a as a giver, a receiver is
• 40:04
  trusting that whatever is being offered is done out of love,
• 40:07
  done for their good, right not to use them, control them
• 40:10
  extort. You know, there's all sorts of
• 40:11
  sort of we know this in our culture.
• 40:14
  As a matter of fact, we have a culture of very controlled gift
• 40:16
  giving right when you look about like.
• 40:18
  You know, wedding registries and gift cards and returning gifts.
• 40:21
  We are very, we know. I think deep down the human
• 40:24
  person knows that any form of giving and receiving is fraught
• 40:27
  with risk and fraught with the possibility of getting hurt.
• 40:30
  That's why we like controlled forms of gift giving, right?
• 40:32
  We try to make ourselves invulnerable.
• 40:35
  But that being said, in the course of of everyday life.
• 40:40
  If you're not having a big decision every day, where?
• 40:44
  The man of the house is saying no, we're going to do it this
• 40:46
  way and everybody obey. If that's not happening, what is
• 40:48
  happening every day? Well, I'd say every day is full
• 40:51
  of opportunities to give well and to receive well.
• 40:56
  Now, am I talking about the husband as being the only giver?
• 40:59
  No, I personally know that I do lots of giving to my husband and
• 41:04
  kids every day. But the key here and the key to
• 41:07
  this book is that there is something irreplaceable when it
• 41:10
  comes to the husband and wife. There is a unique way in which
• 41:14
  he gives in a way that I can't, in a way that I receive in a way
• 41:18
  that he can't, that if that's not present, there's trouble.
• 41:22
  So what this means is I do lots for my husband, of course, and
• 41:26
  he knows it and he appreciates me.
• 41:27
  But if I am being wonderful, Mary, who gives all the time,
• 41:32
  but I am not at the same time receiving well with gentleness
• 41:36
  and gratitude and kindness and appreciation to what my husband
• 41:41
  does for me each day, he will not experience love.
• 41:44
  Because men experience love when what they do is well received.
• 41:50
  The identity of a man is very much bound up in his actions.
• 41:53
  Again, physiologically, we see that it's true.
• 41:56
  I have four sons. I've I've I've.
• 41:58
  Seen this, you know. I can tell them I love you, I
• 42:01
  love you. They're like, yes, you're my
• 42:03
  mom, but I need to go out there and do something.
• 42:05
  Right, I need to excel in this. My three-year old son, he wants
• 42:09
  to open the car door for me. He he wants to.
• 42:12
  He wants to be, he wants to be needed and he wants to be a man
• 42:15
  at three years old. And it's the most adorable
• 42:17
  thing, but it's very instinctual.
• 42:20
  And you see that little masculinity in a beautiful way.
• 42:22
  And I I want him to do I let him carry my bag?
• 42:26
  No, absolutely. A man has to feel that he has
• 42:28
  something to offer. This is not to say that we don't
• 42:32
  as women, but there's a particular identity forming way
• 42:35
  in which when what they do is well received and when we we
• 42:39
  make them feel that they have had something to offer, it
• 42:42
  affirms their identity. As women, we tend to crave love
• 42:46
  and affirmation. Through our receptivity.
• 42:49
  Right. When you're a woman and you want
• 42:50
  to know if Somebody Loves You, well, you want them to do
• 42:53
  something for you, right? Bring me flowers, give me a hug,
• 42:55
  give me a kiss. Do something for me.
• 42:57
  And then I know. I know he, he loves me.
• 43:00
  So we tend to crave love in the form of a gift.
• 43:03
  Men tend to crave love in the form of their own gift being
• 43:06
  well received. It's such a beautiful,
• 43:09
  complimentary it really. Isn't it that it's, and it's the
• 43:12
  same movement, right? In other words, we can
• 43:14
  experience love in the very same movement, right?
• 43:17
  If he does something for me, I know he loves me, right?
• 43:20
  But then in receiving it well and not immediately criticizing
• 43:24
  it, right, he's experiencing that love.
• 43:26
  I mean, I feel like. I experienced it that every
• 43:29
  every Christmas. I try to get my husband a nice
• 43:32
  gift, but I know that if I'm not wholly.
• 43:35
  Pleased. With what he's done for me, he's
• 43:37
  going to feel sad and he's not going to feel that affirmation.
• 43:41
  I could, I could probably get him anything, but if I love what
• 43:44
  he got from me, he's happy. So there's this.
• 43:48
  So even if you get excited about what you got for him, that makes
• 43:50
  him excited. I've noticed with my husband
• 43:52
  anyways, like even if it's not something he that's great for
• 43:55
  him but he wants me to be satisfied.
• 43:58
  That and that's it. Which?
• 43:59
  Means me to be. And when you talk about being
• 44:01
  satisfied, I think that's. Another way of saying he wants
• 44:05
  me to receive well, right? When you're satisfied, that
• 44:07
  means you've received something. I got joy from this.
• 44:10
  A husband wants to see a smiling wife.
• 44:12
  You know, sometimes we can talk about.
• 44:13
  I've heard women argue about, you know, how dressed up you
• 44:16
  should get for your husband every day.
• 44:17
  And sure, like, we do have to realize that I don't have to
• 44:20
  look at myself all day, you know, but those around me do.
• 44:22
  But I think the most attractive thing to a guy when he comes to
• 44:26
  see his wife. Is a smile.
• 44:29
  So. Basic and so come on, as a
• 44:32
  woman. All of the.
• 44:33
  Worries and anxieties and relationships that I'm carrying
• 44:35
  around all the time. Right.
• 44:37
  It's so easy for me to allow that to overtake myself all the
• 44:41
  time, so when you see how powerful is, he wants to make me
• 44:44
  happy. Well, it's like the happy wife.
• 44:46
  Happy life isn't just about the misery of living with an unhappy
• 44:50
  woman. It's about something much more
• 44:51
  deep than that, which is what, to your point, it's about.
• 44:54
  The man's desire is for the woman to be Eve like the height
• 44:58
  of creation and all her glory and beauty, you know, at rest,
• 45:01
  at leisure, like he wants to create the guard, you know, tend
• 45:04
  the garden for Eve. Like this is an instinct deep
• 45:06
  within him to provide to be the giver like you're describing.
• 45:10
  And so if Eve is not happy and at at leisure, it's not about
• 45:13
  oh, she's annoying because she's mean to him.
• 45:15
  It's more just that he's not at a core, in a core foundational
• 45:18
  way fulfilled because he's like, I don't have a happy Eve next.
• 45:21
  Night and so that's hopefully what's motivating him.
• 45:24
  One of the things we have to contend with which you've
• 45:26
  already mentioned is OK, what if he's not giving well, right.
• 45:29
  What if he's he's not giving well?
• 45:31
  Right, Which means he's either to lunch or, you know, just
• 45:35
  whether it be a lack of virtue or simply he's trying hard, but
• 45:38
  but he's he's not making me happy, right.
• 45:40
  How do you deal with that? How do because by very.
• 45:43
  Definition. You can't.
• 45:44
  Demand a gift. You can't.
• 45:46
  You have to lead, right? You can't say that, right?
• 45:50
  So one thing that that at least I have when we talk to our
• 45:55
  couples that we speak to and when I talk to people is I, I
• 45:58
  usually ask, OK, listen, men have to be motivated to give and
• 46:04
  to make you happy. If it doesn't.
• 46:06
  Seem like they're trying hard enough for their they're doing
• 46:08
  something wrong, you know, and they're just not giving.
• 46:09
  Well, I guess I could. I could put it that way.
• 46:13
  Sometimes it's helpful to say, OK, number one, are they, you
• 46:19
  know, have I shown appreciation for what they have done?
• 46:23
  Right? It's, it's very easy when you're
• 46:25
  upset at someone or in disagreement with someone to
• 46:28
  totally identify them with that fault or that problem, right?
• 46:31
  And it's like, no, actually I might be upset about this, but
• 46:34
  look at all the other things I haven't noticed, I haven't
• 46:36
  appreciated. So we need to.
• 46:37
  Start there. What can I appreciate?
• 46:38
  What can I? Because that does build him up.
• 46:41
  I had the privilege of giving a talk to a room of 40 men on this
• 46:46
  topic. It was they decided to separate
• 46:48
  the husbands. And the wives that I was, I.
• 46:49
  Was kind of nervous, but it was very beautiful.
• 46:51
  And when I mentioned this point about when we appreciate what a
• 46:55
  man does, this darling man raised his hand and he said, I
• 46:59
  have to tell you, I work really hard for my family.
• 47:03
  He goes, but when my wife is happy and when she's thankful,
• 47:06
  he goes. How did he put it?
• 47:08
  He said it fills my sails and I'm ready to do it all again
• 47:14
  tomorrow. So number one, what can I be
• 47:17
  appreciative for? What haven't I noticed?
• 47:19
  Right? Sometimes we tend to notice just
• 47:21
  the things we want. I mean, there's things my
• 47:23
  husband does that I didn't even. Realize he's been doing all
• 47:26
  these years because I just didn't even notice and so didn't
• 47:29
  thank him for right? Changing the oil.
• 47:32
  And the filters and also there was a.
• 47:35
  Plant locking the doors at. Night like my husband is good
• 47:38
  with plants. There was a plant that I was
• 47:42
  people used to admire. I had it for 10 years.
• 47:44
  I told them it was I'm. Not really good.
• 47:45
  With plants, so I, I was explaining to them that it was a
• 47:47
  totally no maintenance plant and then I, I found out ten years in
• 47:51
  that my husband had been, you know, dusting it and watering it
• 47:53
  every day. So talk about he's.
• 47:55
  So funny, Mary. He's great, he's great.
• 47:59
  But. So find the So you're saying
• 48:01
  find something to appreciate, find something to appreciate.
• 48:03
  But there's got to be one thing, even if you're on the rock.
• 48:05
  That can build right? But then something else
• 48:08
  sometimes, especially for different personality types.
• 48:12
  I mean, again, this is not to judge women.
• 48:14
  There's so many different personalities, so many different
• 48:16
  situations. But I've spoken with a lot of
• 48:19
  women that don't trust their husbands to do certain things
• 48:22
  because they do it wrong or they always screw it up or I just,
• 48:25
  and so they're burdened because they're doing more than they
• 48:27
  probably should be doing. But deep down what they're
• 48:30
  communicating is I don't trust you to do XY or Z.
• 48:33
  And so they're going to shut down.
• 48:35
  You've made them feel that they have nothing to offer.
• 48:37
  And so this is really hard talk about vulnerable giving over
• 48:41
  certain things or you might not be ready to give over a bunch,
• 48:43
  but how about? Saying, honey, I do need you, I
• 48:46
  need you to make dinner once a week or or I need you to take
• 48:48
  over. You know the budgeting for this
• 48:50
  or it what whatever it is, whatever is the planning for
• 48:53
  this giving, giving it to them even like starting small.
• 48:57
  OK, if you're having a control issue like with your husband,
• 48:59
  starting small, giving. Something to them telling them
• 49:02
  you trust them to do it. What do you think is driving the
• 49:04
  control issue that women have? I think that is as a matter of
• 49:10
  fact when when you talk about the Bible.
• 49:12
  Right, even though it does, I mean.
• 49:14
  It was the first sin. I want to.
• 49:16
  I want control. It was.
• 49:17
  Eve's first sin that then LED Adam into sin, and Adam had his
• 49:21
  own issues, but Eve's issue was I want control.
• 49:23
  I want to be God. Absolutely.
• 49:25
  And and in the in the beginning chapters of my book, we take a
• 49:29
  deep dive into Genesis and that's where I think So what
• 49:33
  happens at the end of that first sin?
• 49:35
  We see God telling them he says to her, your desire shall be for
• 49:40
  your husband and he will rule over you.
• 49:43
  I think it's really important to clarify that that phrase.
• 49:47
  There is not so much prescriptive as in this is God's
• 49:53
  plan. Now for men and women, it's more
• 49:55
  descriptive. It's the natural consequence of
• 49:58
  what they've done, the natural consequence of sin, right, of
• 50:01
  saying I don't want a receptive obedient relationship with God.
• 50:05
  I'm going to take what I want. I'm going to use God, right?
• 50:08
  I'm going to take his knowledge, right.
• 50:09
  They were promised to have the knowledge to be like God's.
• 50:12
  I'm going to take that. So I don't need God anymore.
• 50:15
  That's an approach that is not receptive is one of taking.
• 50:19
  But then we see that Adam and Eve are left that the
• 50:22
  consequence, the consequence of that decision is not sort of
• 50:26
  identical on either side. We see that she now is subject
• 50:33
  to his control, or at least a desire for him to maybe control
• 50:36
  use. She's more objectified in his
• 50:39
  eyes, right? But what about her?
• 50:42
  Your desire shall be for your husband.
• 50:43
  This is an unhealthy desire. Women desire relationships.
• 50:47
  We know we're fulfilled so much through relationships.
• 50:50
  We know what we want. Men are fulfilled through
• 50:52
  relationships too. But we we know it, right?
• 50:54
  We want it so badly, right? How can I get a man?
• 50:57
  How can I get that love right? What is the temptation?
• 51:00
  The temptation for women is we want it so badly, we got to make
• 51:03
  it happen. And what do we do?
• 51:05
  Oftentimes we allow ourselves to be objective, objectified,
• 51:08
  right? We will.
• 51:09
  We often don't see ourselves as more than an object.
• 51:13
  So our desire to make things happen, right?
• 51:17
  So in other words, the fallen desire for us is we resist
• 51:22
  receiving. We don't want to have the
• 51:24
  patience and the self-control to receive and to wait.
• 51:27
  Men no longer have the strength to be these givers and these
• 51:31
  risk takers. They'd rather relax and take and
• 51:33
  use, right? So we see these ugly forms of
• 51:36
  fallen men and women. What's the curse for Adam?
• 51:39
  His curse again is right the the the specific curses, right,
• 51:43
  whereas he's inhibited in his work, thorns and thistles, the
• 51:45
  earth will resist him, right? Well, also the earthly part of
• 51:49
  him, right? His body resists him.
• 51:51
  He's got urges and desires that are very difficult to master
• 51:53
  right and I love it in love and responsibility.
• 51:56
  John Paul says man is sort of his curse is pure sensuality,
• 52:02
  but he calls the woman's curse. Now we know her specific
• 52:05
  struggle and she's going to have pain in childbirth, right?
• 52:07
  But this, your desire shall be for your husband and he will
• 52:11
  rule over you. Man is sort of subjected to a
• 52:15
  kind of pure sensuality, women, he says.
• 52:18
  Pure sentimentality, right? This desire for emotional
• 52:22
  gratification and relationship. We want it so badly, but we want
• 52:26
  to do it without receptivity. We want to make it happen.
• 52:29
  So then flash forward to our Lord coming dying for us.
• 52:32
  This new relationship. Husbands, love your wives as
• 52:35
  Christ love the church. This is a new and and wives
• 52:40
  submit to your husband's. This is not.
• 52:43
  A sort of recap of what happened in Genesis.
• 52:46
  This is actually what's required with grace to restore it
• 52:51
  absolutely higher. Because the role of it was like
• 52:53
  as Adam wasn't asked to lay down his life for Eve in the garden
• 52:57
  and Eve wasn't asked to submit to Adam, they were both
• 52:59
  submitting to God. Interesting, right, that that
• 53:02
  wasn't. Even sort of, there's a new.
• 53:03
  Spelled out, but they definitely were fractured.
• 53:05
  That union was fractured. So while grace can unite us back
• 53:09
  to God, what can unite us back to one another?
• 53:12
  It's Him again. I would argue as a Christian
• 53:15
  that it's because of grace that a man is strengthened.
• 53:18
  To lay it all on the line. But it's also Grace that gives
• 53:21
  her. The strength to receive that
• 53:23
  gift because he is men husbands have been given like Christ as
• 53:28
  their model right. No human man right is going to
• 53:32
  be that perfect. Which means.
• 53:34
  That for us, it can be a struggle to receive a gift that
• 53:38
  isn't perfect. Oh, he did this this for me, but
• 53:40
  he didn't do that or he didn't do this.
• 53:42
  Right, Right. The daily struggle of receiving
• 53:45
  well, but what that does is the only way you can have oneness,
• 53:48
  the only way we can have union is through a gesture, a giving
• 53:54
  gesture and through a receptive gesture.
• 53:56
  If one of those pieces is missing, right, you can't have
• 53:59
  union. So I think when men are called
• 54:01
  to to give until it hurts, right, that is just the
• 54:04
  corrective that they need. It's it's hard, but it is
• 54:08
  fulfilling, just like for us every.
• 54:11
  Instinct in me is like. I know what I want and I know
• 54:15
  how I want it to be done, and I want to make it all happen.
• 54:17
  But having to be receptive, that's a challenge for me.
• 54:20
  But I actually find that I do have some skills.
• 54:24
  I have some gifts. So I think that it absolutely
• 54:27
  requires grace and it requires virtue.
• 54:30
  We see, And what Edith Stein is really good at illustrating is
• 54:33
  what happens when women sort of fall in.
• 54:36
  Women give into some of our typical flaws things like well,
• 54:40
  OK, our bodies and our. Our psyches are very person
• 54:44
  relationship oriented, right? Well, that's why, she says.
• 54:47
  That's why it tends to be more of a feminine sin to gossip all
• 54:50
  the time, right? Because we're so interested in
• 54:53
  persons and personal details that pretty soon we're just
• 54:55
  talking about them every chance we.
• 54:57
  Get even if we have no actual connection to the situation
• 55:02
  women, because we are so geared toward persons, we are very
• 55:06
  attentive to the sort of many. Facets of a person at one time
• 55:10
  we just even you know neurologists have noted that
• 55:15
  like women are pretty good at what we call them multitasking
• 55:19
  we have an ability to sort of switch our attention back and
• 55:21
  forth really easily because. We're used to sort of being
• 55:24
  oriented toward a complex reality, but on the the negative
• 55:28
  side, sometimes our multitasking goes out of.
• 55:31
  Control. And she says we can tend toward
• 55:33
  a kind of superficial engagement, whether it's
• 55:35
  relationships or overdoing it. Whereas men in some ways their
• 55:39
  gift. Can be a blocking out in a laser
• 55:41
  focus which is tremendous. But it has a cost as well.
• 55:46
  And so when we have these, so we all.
• 55:49
  Need virtue, and we all need. Grace But deep down again like I
• 55:54
  would say on a daily basis, me receiving well even in the
• 55:58
  little things is how I live it out and have this union and this
• 56:02
  peace in my house on a given day.
• 56:05
  Doesn't mean I'm not doing things for my husband and
• 56:06
  family. No, of course not.
• 56:08
  We're doing a million things. But being sensitive to a man's
• 56:11
  soul and recognizing that if I receive well just what he does
• 56:14
  for me at a given day, that's actually a form of submission.
• 56:18
  Interesting. So what?
• 56:19
  So give us the practicals here of what you already mentioned,
• 56:22
  finding something to be grateful for and acknowledging that in
• 56:24
  your husband. My mind is going to all of the
• 56:27
  people listening right now and the many stories that people
• 56:30
  have themselves are no people who know, you know, friends or
• 56:33
  loved ones. And you know, there is anywhere
• 56:36
  you look, there's a broken relationship or relationship
• 56:39
  that has brokenness in it very human, especially today.
• 56:42
  And so I can already think of the, you know, millions of
• 56:45
  stories of women who say, but my husband doesn't take the
• 56:50
  initiative or he, you know, doesn't appreciate anything that
• 56:54
  I do or he just plays video games.
• 56:56
  I mean, there's, there's a million stories and we could
• 56:57
  tell, we could represent the men's side too, about their
• 57:01
  gripes with their wives. But.
• 57:02
  Right now, I guess right now I guess we're speaking more to the
• 57:05
  women like what they have the power to change, yes, because
• 57:08
  this is meant to be empowering to women to be, especially if
• 57:11
  they're wives, but preparing to be wives or just generally as
• 57:15
  women a feminine in the feminine nature, how they can operate in
• 57:18
  a receptivity. And I guess I would argue
• 57:20
  though, that if we're able to exercise a little more
• 57:23
  tenderness on our receptivity or like noticing things,
• 57:26
  appreciating things, or even like I said, asking her husband
• 57:29
  for help in in giving over some of that, even even if he doesn't
• 57:32
  do it perfectly right, being willing to give it, to give it
• 57:35
  over that, that will. Have an effect on motivating him
• 57:39
  He's going to see how happy it made you he's going to see how
• 57:42
  he felt when he contributed and helped you out in an area where
• 57:45
  you had been kind of shrill and suffering right if he sees.
• 57:48
  That that's going to be a motivator, the one motivation
• 57:52
  that never seems to work, it's a documented failure, is nagging.
• 57:56
  I mean, I hate to ever be. Accused of being shriller,
• 57:59
  nagging as a wife, right? But it's like you.
• 58:00
  Never. Why don't?
• 58:02
  You. Why don't you?
• 58:02
  You never do this. I I want this, this, this OK?
• 58:05
  We all OK. It's a thing.
• 58:08
  Does it work sometimes to get something done?
• 58:10
  Yes. But is it bringing you together?
• 58:13
  Is it building unity? Is it making you happy?
• 58:16
  And it usually isn't because you had to demand it and then you
• 58:18
  kind of felt like the bad guy and maybe he's resentful and
• 58:21
  then you're both. Resentful.
• 58:22
  So I would actually argue that even finding a few small ways to
• 58:25
  exercise receptivity is actually precisely the way that you
• 58:29
  motivate giving. And Saint John Chrysostom said
• 58:32
  this. He said wives respect your
• 58:35
  husbands even when they show you no love, and husbands love your
• 58:40
  wives even if they show you no respect.
• 58:42
  So that love and respect to me, I mean, even Saint Paul says
• 58:45
  that at the end of the Ephesians 5 passage, he says, so husbands
• 58:49
  love your wives and wives respect your husbands.
• 58:51
  And you're kind of like almost waiting for him to say love your
• 58:53
  husbands. That's how you love them.
• 58:56
  Because respect is synonymous with appreciation, with
• 58:59
  gratitude, with receptivity, that is.
• 59:02
  Its own special love language. So I would definitely argue that
• 59:04
  I'm actually, I mean, I'm a woman.
• 59:06
  So yeah, I'm talking to women. And if I had to talk to men, I'd
• 59:08
  say lay it down, Look for ways that you can concretely serve
• 59:14
  her. There was a video we were
• 59:17
  watching. It was to make us all laugh.
• 59:19
  It was one of these comedy videos and.
• 59:21
  The the wife was saying this is how my husband gets ready for
• 59:25
  when we're having company. And then they showed the husband
• 59:28
  like in the garage, organizing all the extension cords.
• 59:31
  It was it was a gesture of hard work that was absolutely not
• 59:34
  serving her needs in any way. And everyone was ha, ha, ha,
• 59:37
  right. So husbands, listen, you want to
• 59:39
  make her happy? Find.
• 59:41
  Out what she needs and as women sometimes we wanted to play a
• 59:44
  guessing game no for some husbands you know but let him
• 59:47
  ask so husbands asked ask how can I help you how can I serve
• 59:52
  right because they're. Not really going to be happy
• 59:54
  unless you're thrilled. So husbands, it's incumbent upon
• 59:57
  them, right? You're going to be happy when
• 59:59
  she's happy. So find out what's going to make
• 1:00:01
  her happy. However, here's a caution and
• 1:00:05
  maybe this will kind of go into like the harder situation topic.
• 1:00:10
  And I use an example from Pride and Prejudice in the book.
• 1:00:14
  If making her happy just being saying yes to everything that
• 1:00:17
  she wants, even if you don't see that it's good, that is a
• 1:00:21
  problem. The example that I give, that I
• 1:00:24
  gave in the book, I don't want to pick on anyone in particular.
• 1:00:26
  So in Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Bennett does not think it's a
• 1:00:30
  good idea to allow his daughter Lydia to go on a seaside holiday
• 1:00:34
  without chaperones, right? He thinks it's not a good idea.
• 1:00:37
  She's a flirt, she's disobedient.
• 1:00:40
  He doesn't think it's good. He thinks it's imprudent, right?
• 1:00:42
  His reason, his logic, his whole core being is saying don't do
• 1:00:45
  this. But he ends up letting her go,
• 1:00:48
  and the reason is because his wife wouldn't leave him alone
• 1:00:50
  about it. Come on, come on.
• 1:00:52
  In other words. I'm not going to be happy unless
• 1:00:54
  you give me what I want. If it violates his understanding
• 1:01:00
  that, and this is the problem, and you know what, when you do
• 1:01:02
  that enough, they're going to check out.
• 1:01:05
  And what I focused on in the book is actually what happens to
• 1:01:08
  their marriage. Well, of course, she runs off
• 1:01:10
  with Wickham and does all sorts of things.
• 1:01:12
  You know, she might have done that anyway.
• 1:01:14
  Right. We, we can't control what our
• 1:01:16
  kids are ultimately going to do. You do your best as a parent.
• 1:01:18
  But what happens between the couple, right?
• 1:01:20
  They're more alienated than ever because she didn't the.
• 1:01:23
  Resentment. And so engaged means this is
• 1:01:30
  part of where my respect comes in.
• 1:01:31
  I do have to respect his opinion.
• 1:01:33
  And even if we've talked a situation to death and looked at
• 1:01:36
  all the angles and prayed about it, if we get to an impasse
• 1:01:39
  right, I'm going to respect him because he can't.
• 1:01:44
  He needs to do what he thinks is best.
• 1:01:46
  And this is something that Eda Stein points out for women.
• 1:01:51
  We are so person oriented that we tend to give our
• 1:01:54
  relationships priority. I can get on board with
• 1:01:59
  something that I'm not as excited about for the sake of a
• 1:02:02
  relationship. I used the example of when I
• 1:02:05
  wanted to hang out with my husband when we were dating.
• 1:02:07
  I knew on Sundays he enjoyed watching.
• 1:02:08
  Football. So if I wanted to hang out with
• 1:02:10
  him, I had to watch the game and at the time I wasn't interested.
• 1:02:14
  Well, I did it. I actually came to like football
• 1:02:16
  a lot, but I did it for the sake of the relationship.
• 1:02:19
  My mom learned all about cars because my dad was an engineer
• 1:02:23
  and loved, I'm going to say he loved classic cars.
• 1:02:25
  I think they were actually just the cars at the time, but we all
• 1:02:29
  classic and she learned all about it because for her, that
• 1:02:32
  relationship was more important than the thing.
• 1:02:35
  Men, they tend to focus on the thing itself.
• 1:02:38
  Without the personal considerations.
• 1:02:40
  And so if you're talking about something and he genuinely
• 1:02:43
  thinks this is not the right move.
• 1:02:45
  For us, or this is. Not the right thing.
• 1:02:46
  I want to allow we need to recognize that he is his
• 1:02:52
  identity is not just bound up in his deeds, It's bound up in his
• 1:02:56
  opinions and in his decisions. So when he makes that call, he's
• 1:03:01
  bound to that his his identity is kind of on the line.
• 1:03:04
  So if it goes sideways, he's going to be.
• 1:03:07
  All in on trying to fix it because we have the ability to
• 1:03:12
  sort of get on board with something because for the sake
• 1:03:15
  of the relationship, again, this is a maternal thing like.
• 1:03:19
  I have a. Friend who was planning to have
• 1:03:20
  all girls, but she had all boys. She loves these kids.
• 1:03:24
  She'll nurture that relationship at anything.
• 1:03:25
  She became an expert in all things military and all things
• 1:03:27
  Lego. Without.
• 1:03:29
  Without. Missing a beat, right?
• 1:03:31
  If we can say all right, ultimately.
• 1:03:34
  We're going to go with your decision.
• 1:03:35
  Because I love you. I can more easily distinguish
• 1:03:39
  who my husband is from what he does.
• 1:03:41
  I can say I love you. I don't.
• 1:03:44
  Really love that decision. I'm not talking about moral
• 1:03:47
  decisions, I'm talking about the practical prudential decisions,
• 1:03:49
  right. Because of that, not only is it
• 1:03:54
  a kind of. Fail safe because when things go
• 1:03:56
  wrong or this decision turned out this way.
• 1:03:58
  He's not alone in it. He's with me because men are
• 1:04:02
  very easily debilitated by failure because they identify
• 1:04:06
  with their actions. So when they fail, when they
• 1:04:08
  have unemployment, when they have issues like that, it cuts
• 1:04:11
  at them in a certain, very particular way.
• 1:04:13
  So if he makes the ultimate call and it goes sideways #1 he's
• 1:04:18
  going to take ownership, but he's not going to be devastated
• 1:04:21
  by it because we did it together.
• 1:04:23
  I stood by him. So that ability that we have is
• 1:04:27
  an incredible gift, I think, for weathering the storms of life.
• 1:04:32
  And I told a true story in my book about a couple that went
• 1:04:35
  through this. She clung with him.
• 1:04:37
  The decision went sideways. What was it?
• 1:04:39
  Can you hear? It was it was my friend's
• 1:04:42
  parents and he wanted to retire early.
• 1:04:46
  He accept the package, invest the rest and build her her dream
• 1:04:51
  house which was like a farm and. And she didn't, she said, you
• 1:04:55
  know, I think you're not going to be happy retiring so soon.
• 1:04:58
  I'm a little concerned about the investment that you want to do.
• 1:05:01
  And I just, you know, so they talked it to death, but in the
• 1:05:04
  end. You really wanted to do this for
• 1:05:06
  her. I want to build you.
• 1:05:07
  I want to do it. I want to do it.
• 1:05:08
  So she does. Within a very short time after
• 1:05:12
  building her the dream house, the barn, everything, the
• 1:05:15
  investment collapsed. He had to re enter the workforce
• 1:05:19
  and couldn't to make necessary repairs and maintenance on all
• 1:05:22
  of the new property for like 10 years.
• 1:05:25
  But he worked his tail off during that time making it up to
• 1:05:28
  her taking ownership and because she had stood with him.
• 1:05:32
  They have a very happy marriage, so it's painful.
• 1:05:36
  Instead of berating him because it wasn't, what an opportunity,
• 1:05:40
  right? She went his direction.
• 1:05:42
  His direction fell on its face. And she could have.
• 1:05:45
  And most women by their human nature, their sinful nature,
• 1:05:48
  might just say, I told you So what the.
• 1:05:50
  Heck. I know.
• 1:05:51
  Listen to me next time, you know?
• 1:05:52
  But instead, it sounds like she just cheered them on.
• 1:05:55
  We're in this together. We'll figure.
• 1:05:56
  And that's the thing. And that's by going by clinging
• 1:05:59
  to them. Again, this is not a recipe for
• 1:06:01
  no suffering, but it is a recipe for what I for.
• 1:06:05
  There's, there's two kinds of suffering, right?
• 1:06:07
  There's suffering that alarms us that something's wrong, right?
• 1:06:09
  Like when you're when you're burning and you're real, you're
• 1:06:11
  standing too close to the stove. OK, well, that's a warning,
• 1:06:13
  right? But there's other suffering that
• 1:06:15
  I call fruitful suffering. Right, like when you're having a
• 1:06:18
  baby or when you're getting in shape, right?
• 1:06:20
  It hurts, but something fruitful comes from it.
• 1:06:24
  The dynamic of generous giving and generous receiving is
• 1:06:27
  absolutely something that can be painful at times, but it's a
• 1:06:32
  fruitful suffering and it it can bring you closer together and
• 1:06:36
  even in the bigger scheme of things, right?
• 1:06:38
  Because none of this is done without the mutual
• 1:06:40
  subordination, which means ultimately all of my receiving,
• 1:06:44
  even my sacrificial receiving as a wife and all of my husband's
• 1:06:47
  generous toil and giving as a husband.
• 1:06:50
  They're both a form of receiving from God, right?
• 1:06:52
  It can bring us closer to union with Him.
• 1:06:55
  And that's something really important.
• 1:06:56
  And that's why I talk about Saint Joseph in the book for the
• 1:06:58
  Husbands St. Joseph.
• 1:07:02
  He actually received God's will. He obeyed by taking leadership
• 1:07:06
  of the Holy Family. He did not feel that he was
• 1:07:09
  necessarily up to it, right? That phrase when it says he
• 1:07:13
  wanted to divorce her quietly, right?
• 1:07:15
  Many in the tradition of the Church have thought that Saint
• 1:07:18
  Joseph believed that Mary had somehow been unfaithful to their
• 1:07:21
  betrothal. But Jerome and Origen, they they
• 1:07:25
  both said no Saint Joseph knew Mary was holy.
• 1:07:27
  He just recognized that something supernatural was going
• 1:07:31
  on here. And he didn't feel worthy.
• 1:07:32
  Most men don't feel. Worthy to.
• 1:07:36
  Have our Lord as their model laid on your life like God.
• 1:07:39
  So there's going to be a fear and a risk because there's so
• 1:07:43
  much risk in giving And so kind of recognizing that.
• 1:07:47
  And I think the more we can do it on a daily level of just
• 1:07:51
  appreciating and just recognizing how much our
• 1:07:53
  appreciation means to him. It sounds easy.
• 1:07:56
  It's actually kind of hard, right?
• 1:07:58
  But that when we get to those big moments where you've reached
• 1:08:03
  an impasse, I still think that the dynamic really it's a kind
• 1:08:08
  of fail safe. It's almost our submission in
• 1:08:10
  those moments is almost a guarantee of unity even when
• 1:08:13
  things go sideways, because it's not a guarantee that every
• 1:08:16
  decision my human husband makes. If I if it's a.
• 1:08:20
  Decision like that is going to be the best one, right?
• 1:08:23
  There's no guarantee. So it's sort of more of a
• 1:08:25
  guarantee for the marriage. I think that the word, when you
• 1:08:28
  say the word submission, like what you just said so
• 1:08:30
  beautifully, we're talking about really it's synonymous with
• 1:08:33
  respect and with at the end of the day, deference.
• 1:08:38
  But it's not so non synonymous with blind obedience, you know,
• 1:08:42
  accepting, you know, bad behavior, even in terms of like
• 1:08:45
  abusive behavior. And I think that's where there's
• 1:08:47
  so much confusion about the word.
• 1:08:50
  And if you don't see it modeled healthfully, it can be a scary
• 1:08:52
  concept, right? Absolutely.
• 1:08:54
  What would you say are the very clear, maybe the top three or
• 1:08:56
  pick your number, do's and don'ts of submission, Biblical
• 1:09:01
  submission? What are what are what are I
• 1:09:03
  think you mentioned being great grateful, you know, finding
• 1:09:06
  something to be grateful for on a daily basis is part of it.
• 1:09:09
  Maybe one of the top three, but you pick and then what are the
• 1:09:12
  top 3 don'ts like this is actually.
• 1:09:14
  You might think this is submission, but this is actually
• 1:09:16
  not what submission means. Right, right.
• 1:09:17
  So. Gratitude appreciation, which
• 1:09:21
  another way of saying is I trust you right knowing they husbands,
• 1:09:26
  knowing that we trust them, knowing that they have something
• 1:09:29
  to offer right. That's incredibly.
• 1:09:31
  It's vivifying, it's life giving for them because it helps them
• 1:09:34
  to want to give more and more. But because this you mentioned
• 1:09:39
  blind obedience, I really don't think blind obedience is
• 1:09:42
  actually obedience, right? We want eyes.
• 1:09:45
  We want eyes wide open obedience, right?
• 1:09:47
  Because a blind obedience sort of means I'm not thinking, I'm
• 1:09:50
  not bringing my spiritual dimension, my intellect and will
• 1:09:52
  to the table. And that's not how we treat
• 1:09:54
  human beings. That's not, that's not it,
• 1:09:57
  right. And a husband trusts his wife.
• 1:10:01
  He trusts her gifts, especially her gifts of intuition, empathy
• 1:10:04
  and adaptability. Those.
• 1:10:06
  Let's just say he's not fully in that zone, right.
• 1:10:08
  So let's let's say, let's like when I say the top do's and
• 1:10:11
  don'ts of submission, regardless of the husband, like like let's
• 1:10:15
  just say the husband is not locked in yet.
• 1:10:18
  Early bird has his issues, you know, so, but you're still want
• 1:10:21
  to show up as the biblical wife and do your role even when he's
• 1:10:26
  not fully engaged in his Because I think that's where it really
• 1:10:29
  gets complex. Right.
• 1:10:30
  How do we? Live in our imperfect
• 1:10:32
  situations. I mean, in terms of don't, yeah,
• 1:10:35
  it doesn't mean except abuse is not a gift, so it doesn't
• 1:10:40
  require being received. So I mean, I you want to, I want
• 1:10:42
  to clarify that. So we're so so you're saying
• 1:10:45
  under the do's and don'ts of submission, regardless of the
• 1:10:48
  circumstance of what the man is doing, right.
• 1:10:50
  Under the don't, it's, you know, submitting does not mean
• 1:10:54
  allowing yourself to be abused, right?
• 1:10:56
  And can would you be willing to define abuse?
• 1:10:57
  This is also very controversial. Yes it is, but I think.
• 1:11:01
  A lot of women are like, well, he's grumpy with me.
• 1:11:03
  It's emotional abuse, you know? And that and I I I.
• 1:11:06
  It's tough, I know. I.
• 1:11:07
  Know. I know that is.
• 1:11:09
  AI would certainly say abuse is not just physical.
• 1:11:11
  They're going to absolutely be emotional and verbal, right?
• 1:11:14
  In the book I mentioned. We have to.
• 1:11:17
  Recognize that sometimes there is a difference between a lack,
• 1:11:20
  right, a lack of provision, right?
• 1:11:23
  So say he's not, he's not providing well enough for the
• 1:11:27
  family or maybe there's a a lack of affection.
• 1:11:31
  Those things are not easy. They cause suffering, right?
• 1:11:34
  But I would say those are things that can often be.
• 1:11:39
  Ameliorated they can they can be fixed or fixed, but right, they
• 1:11:42
  can be improved right through that.
• 1:11:44
  What Saint John Chrysalis somestead, right?
• 1:11:47
  Respect him anyway. Be grateful for him anyway.
• 1:11:48
  Try to build him up. But again, do communicate,
• 1:11:50
  right? We are spiritual living
• 1:11:51
  creatures. We got to talk about these
• 1:11:53
  things. So a lack versus sort of an so,
• 1:11:57
  so that's of omission versus more of a Commission, right.
• 1:12:01
  Abusive words and abusive, you know, physical gestures and
• 1:12:05
  things, you know, no. And and it means, again, it's
• 1:12:09
  oversimplifying. You can't tolerate that.
• 1:12:12
  It often it, it takes an immense amount of support to get away
• 1:12:15
  from that situation, but that's. Going to be the only way that
• 1:12:17
  she can preserve her dignity. And as a matter of fact, ETA
• 1:12:21
  Stein talks about sometimes it's it can be harder for a woman to
• 1:12:26
  sort of stand on her dignity because of our particular
• 1:12:30
  weakness of identifying too much with her body.
• 1:12:33
  It's it's almost like we don't always have the strongest sense
• 1:12:36
  of spiritual identity because a man identifies with what he
• 1:12:40
  does. He knows he's more than just his
• 1:12:42
  body. Do you mean to say that she
• 1:12:44
  submits too much so there is such a thing and it's not true
• 1:12:47
  submission? She often accepts herself being
• 1:12:51
  objectified, yes, so and and that's, that's not helpful.
• 1:12:55
  And that's where and that's where there is a toxic, there is
• 1:12:58
  a toxic submission that even unfortunately in some cultures.
• 1:13:02
  What you're willing to to take or how you're willing to be
• 1:13:05
  treated. Cultures In Christianity, there
• 1:13:08
  is this sort of thing of like, well, submit, period.
• 1:13:11
  And like Saint Joseph Chrysostom says, submit even if he's not a
• 1:13:14
  respectable guy or he's not being, you know, respect even if
• 1:13:17
  he's not being respectful. OK.
• 1:13:18
  So there's some tolerance, I'd say there's some tolerance for
• 1:13:21
  lack. But what we have to recognize
• 1:13:23
  too is, and even in the book, I quote a couple of of popes, but
• 1:13:27
  at one point in custody, Kenobi Pope is the 11th.
• 1:13:31
  He says, by the way, a wife's obedience, it's not the same as
• 1:13:36
  a child's obedience. It's not because we think she's.
• 1:13:39
  She's dumb or still developing right?
• 1:13:42
  In other words, we're relating as human creatures and so to to
• 1:13:48
  somehow. Here's an interesting thing.
• 1:13:50
  When Saint Paul uses the word submit, the Greek word he uses
• 1:13:54
  is in the reflexive. It actually means wives submit
• 1:13:58
  yourselves to your husbands. He's not saying lives.
• 1:14:02
  We know that you are intellectually and sort of
• 1:14:05
  morally inferior and so you, you can't do certain things.
• 1:14:08
  No, of course you are. You're human, right?
• 1:14:11
  Bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh.
• 1:14:13
  We have all of the same spiritual capacities, but we are
• 1:14:16
  being asked for the sake of this relationship, if this
• 1:14:18
  relationship. Is going to work.
• 1:14:21
  I am being asked, called, exhorted to with my mind and
• 1:14:26
  will say. I love you, honey.
• 1:14:28
  I receive what you have to offer.
• 1:14:30
  Your will is my will, whatever it is, right?
• 1:14:32
  In being appreciative to him, in accepting a final say decision
• 1:14:36
  that's there. But it's not because I wasn't
• 1:14:38
  smart and didn't have anything to offer.
• 1:14:40
  And again, that's where the trust comes in.
• 1:14:42
  When you have these. Extreme cases.
• 1:14:44
  These husbands are not trusting in their wife's ability to make
• 1:14:47
  good decisions, and that's treating that wife as less than
• 1:14:51
  human. So.
• 1:14:54
  That, again, I would argue, isn't.
• 1:14:56
  It's really not submission at all, it's simply my will was
• 1:15:00
  taken out of it. So what?
• 1:15:02
  So when it comes to the do's and don'ts of submission, regardless
• 1:15:05
  of the cases, including the bad cases, unfortunately, right?
• 1:15:08
  So it sounds like you're saying when it comes to the don'ts,
• 1:15:12
  you're saying that you at the end of the day, you have to be
• 1:15:17
  your daughter of God. 1st. Before you are even a wife and
• 1:15:21
  you need to respect yourself and your own soul and your own body.
• 1:15:25
  And if you have a very disrespectful husband,
• 1:15:28
  tragically, then you don't have to accept him being
• 1:15:31
  disrespectful to you. You can just literally walk out
• 1:15:33
  of the room, you know, or or or you know, leave and not engage.
• 1:15:36
  If there is, you know, red lines that are crossed in terms of
• 1:15:39
  berating you, certainly physically abusing you, being
• 1:15:44
  unkind to you, and you need to still take care of yourself.
• 1:15:47
  So that sounds like. And for absolutely in other and
• 1:15:51
  if that if there's any hope for that relationship to be healed,
• 1:15:54
  it's. It is and saying no, no.
• 1:15:57
  I'm not OK. With it, I'm not OK with that
• 1:15:58
  biblical man, unless you draw that line, there isn't a way to
• 1:16:01
  heal it. And that goes back to the mutual
• 1:16:03
  submission. It simply means that she is not
• 1:16:06
  a woman, is not defined in her husband's eyes.
• 1:16:09
  She is defined ultimately in that relationship with our Lord.
• 1:16:12
  And that's where she's going to find her dignity.
• 1:16:14
  And that is what's going to give her, ideally, the strength to
• 1:16:16
  deal with those times when it's hard.
• 1:16:18
  Same thing for him, right? When it's hard for him to.
• 1:16:20
  Be the head of this family and maybe he's not getting
• 1:16:23
  appreciation or either at work or at home, you know, wherever
• 1:16:25
  it is. He is ultimately relating to God
• 1:16:29
  in and through this relationship.
• 1:16:31
  And so that's why that's such an anchor for for both sides,
• 1:16:36
  really. So the don't then would be don't
• 1:16:39
  give your identity up to your husband in terms of letting him
• 1:16:43
  just rule over you like the curse prescribed the.
• 1:16:47
  Curse described exactly. That wasn't a prescription from
• 1:16:49
  heaven. That was a description of what
• 1:16:52
  sin will do to the relationship. So you know, do not sin and also
• 1:16:56
  protect yourself in many ways from being sinned against by
• 1:16:59
  having certain boundaries. Again, this is all there's all a
• 1:17:02
  perfect way to do this. So the don't of submission is
• 1:17:05
  don't submit to bad leadership in terms of him being harmful to
• 1:17:11
  you. But that being said, the due of
• 1:17:14
  submission is what is bad leadership.
• 1:17:16
  Even if he's making a decision you don't agree with provided
• 1:17:19
  it's not endangering your soul right or someone else's soul.
• 1:17:23
  Yes, you got to get on board with a cheerful look on your
• 1:17:26
  face, but that not in a not in a blind way to your point, you
• 1:17:30
  have to also explain this is hard for me.
• 1:17:33
  This is what I would think like instead.
• 1:17:34
  I understand though you feel so strongly.
• 1:17:36
  We've talked about, yes, we maybe even talk to spiritual
• 1:17:39
  guides and other mentors and you still feel strongly because I'm
• 1:17:42
  your wife and I trust you because you are my husband.
• 1:17:45
  God gave you to me. I will go your way and I will
• 1:17:47
  make the very best of it. Yes, because you are, at the end
• 1:17:50
  of the day the CEO. Yes.
• 1:17:51
  And I think that that's where you can see the fruitfulness.
• 1:17:55
  You know, there's no fruitfulness without union.
• 1:17:57
  We know that from a physical perspective, right?
• 1:18:00
  But the fruits of marriage, Lila are not just physical.
• 1:18:04
  The fruits of marriage is a real ontological union.
• 1:18:08
  And if you have a real union, it is always fruitful.
• 1:18:11
  It's just that you don't always know what the, that's the nature
• 1:18:13
  of fruit. You don't always know what it's
• 1:18:15
  going to be, what it's going to look like, how it's going to
• 1:18:16
  turn out. And believe me, it's not just in
• 1:18:19
  having, you know, 7 wonderful children that are all perfect.
• 1:18:22
  No, no, the actual fruits of marriage are myriad.
• 1:18:25
  And I, I did a podcast recently with, for a support group for
• 1:18:29
  infertile couples. I was like, no, you don't.
• 1:18:32
  The spiritual fruitfulness isn't like a secondary, it's actually
• 1:18:35
  the original fruit of marriage. It's a spiritual fruitfulness.
• 1:18:38
  And often times we just, we don't know how it's going to
• 1:18:42
  grow. We don't know what our
• 1:18:43
  sufferings and our challenges are going to are going to sort
• 1:18:48
  of produce in us. But this is one other point
• 1:18:51
  about fruitfulness is that are the fruits that grow from our
• 1:18:54
  marriage and our relationships. We those fruits don't usually
• 1:18:58
  exist for us. Fruits exist for others.
• 1:19:01
  And I can't tell you how many times I've benefited from the
• 1:19:03
  fruit of other people's suffering wisdom, experience.
• 1:19:06
  People have said they have benefited from mine and you
• 1:19:08
  realize, OK, mine is not to judge, mine is to receive.
• 1:19:12
  And so with those distinctions, with those qualifications that
• 1:19:16
  yes, we're not talking about endangering your soul because
• 1:19:19
  that is a. Form of abuse.
• 1:19:20
  We're not talking about, you know, enforcing me to do
• 1:19:23
  something immoral, right? Painful situations.
• 1:19:27
  But they're not gifts, which means they're not leadership.
• 1:19:29
  They don't require reception because receiving those isn't
• 1:19:32
  actually receiving. It's it's been, it's consenting
• 1:19:34
  to just being harmed and wounded, but.
• 1:19:37
  But when it's just something I don't I don't like, I just think
• 1:19:39
  this. Is better.
• 1:19:40
  I want that right and and we've. Talked about it and he does
• 1:19:43
  trust me, but he also has to go with his own mind and gut and
• 1:19:47
  you don't. It's dangerous to take that away
• 1:19:50
  from him because you're taking away ownership when you make all
• 1:19:53
  of the demands. And we want him to own this
• 1:19:55
  family. We want him to care.
• 1:19:58
  But I would say, again, just kind of reiterating what we said
• 1:20:01
  at the beginning, that that those kind of things don't
• 1:20:03
  happen every day. And if they're happening?
• 1:20:05
  Every day in your life. There's a trust issue going on.
• 1:20:08
  But what if there's a trust issue going on back to the
• 1:20:10
  don'ts category? Let's say he's micromanaging the
• 1:20:13
  woman. Yeah, And he's like, I don't
• 1:20:15
  like the dinner tonight. I don't like what you're
• 1:20:17
  wearing. I don't like that you took
• 1:20:19
  Johnny to the park. I don't like.
• 1:20:20
  And unfortunately, there's again, a small group of men.
• 1:20:22
  And there's also vices that women have.
• 1:20:24
  We're talking about how women respond in this particular case
• 1:20:27
  or like sexual things. He has a sexual appetite that
• 1:20:30
  just seems out of line with reality.
• 1:20:32
  She's like, I don't like this is not reasonable.
• 1:20:34
  And like, you're not really like seeing me.
• 1:20:36
  I'm like your I'm like your object here.
• 1:20:38
  I'm not your subject. And so I've heard these horror
• 1:20:41
  stories. You know, I know people who've
• 1:20:42
  been in these marriages and they're Christians and they're
• 1:20:46
  trying to be submissive wives. But they also know that to be a
• 1:20:50
  submissive wife in the biblical sense is to not be is not to be
• 1:20:53
  a doormat. But sometimes, in the bent view
• 1:20:56
  of this husband, unfortunately, he thinks she should be the
• 1:21:00
  doormat. Right.
• 1:21:01
  And then he starts using Ephesians 5 on her and then you
• 1:21:04
  have guilt. And then it's just like this
• 1:21:06
  toxic mire that she's in. What?
• 1:21:08
  What? Is she?
• 1:21:09
  And again to. Clarify.
• 1:21:10
  At least you know the Catholic Church teaching for centuries
• 1:21:13
  again. Leo the 13th, Pius the 11th.
• 1:21:15
  They they all clarified a woman. Is not bound to obey her
• 1:21:21
  husband's request if it is not within reason or her dignity.
• 1:21:24
  So number one, there is not an obligation that a woman is not
• 1:21:28
  bound to obey her husband's every request if it is not
• 1:21:32
  within reason or if it goes against her dignity.
• 1:21:35
  So there you go. And again, I think that you said
• 1:21:37
  that. Right now, in this moment, it's
• 1:21:39
  in my book, it's either Leo the 13th or Pius the 11th.
• 1:21:42
  And so yes, it was a Pope and but but again.
• 1:21:45
  And isn't that just logic? Like it, it it to me.
• 1:21:48
  It's of course right, because this is supposed to get him to
• 1:21:51
  heaven as well, this relationship.
• 1:21:53
  Letting his wife and having his appetite absolutely the part of
• 1:21:57
  the sacrifice. And that's why something like in
• 1:21:59
  marriage, something like natural family planning.
• 1:22:02
  Well, if him and his reason and logic in consultation with his
• 1:22:06
  wife says, oh, now you know, maybe we need.
• 1:22:08
  To give you a break from a baby. Or maybe we need to wait to have
• 1:22:10
  another baby. Well, that's fine, but the only
• 1:22:13
  way you get to have that is for you to sacrifice the marital
• 1:22:15
  act. You have to suffer in a
• 1:22:18
  sacrificial way to have this be a fruitful thing and not an
• 1:22:21
  abusive thing. It sounds like what you're
• 1:22:22
  saying though to the implication is that you need you need help
• 1:22:25
  like if you're in that situation.
• 1:22:26
  And I think that's what I said in the book.
• 1:22:28
  That's a couple in need. If you're in need of help
• 1:22:31
  because he is, he has issues and you probably have some too, but
• 1:22:35
  whatever, you're being harmed and so and you need to get your
• 1:22:38
  stuff figured out. But this is a harmful dynamic.
• 1:22:40
  I have heard horror stories, though, of women going to very
• 1:22:43
  traditional pastors or even some priests who are kind of more
• 1:22:46
  fundamentalist and they're kind of psychological bent and they
• 1:22:49
  say tough, do whatever he says. And.
• 1:22:53
  And then it's a downward spiral from there because then they
• 1:22:55
  kind of try that and it gets even more weird and toxic and
• 1:22:58
  then it's just a disaster. But I think you find you find
• 1:23:02
  someone of sound judgement of your faith that you go to and
• 1:23:06
  you don't keep secrets. I think that's the other thing
• 1:23:08
  that I've noticed that are really harmful patterns for some
• 1:23:10
  women is when, like I had a close, close acquaintance in
• 1:23:14
  over the years who incredible human being, credible person and
• 1:23:18
  she kept big secrets from everyone about the way he her
• 1:23:22
  husband treated her to protect him out of respect for him.
• 1:23:25
  But these were not just like his follies and foibles.
• 1:23:27
  These were abusive act, you know, activities and finally,
• 1:23:32
  she, you know, shared, but she had been like putting on such a
• 1:23:35
  cheery image for years that some people didn't even believe her
• 1:23:38
  because they're like what you ever you thought everything was
• 1:23:40
  great. He's the best, he's a St. and so
• 1:23:43
  she was in a way, living a double life to cover him.
• 1:23:45
  And it wasn't Christian to do it to do it that way.
• 1:23:48
  Now I don't mean to be too hard on her, but that was
• 1:23:50
  unfortunately something that again, the curse, she just
• 1:23:53
  wanted him to rule over her and so she just went with it.
• 1:23:56
  And that is so hard. And John Paul in the Theology of
• 1:23:59
  the Body, talks about the function of shame.
• 1:24:01
  And he says, listen, shame, we associate shame with sin, right?
• 1:24:05
  Because shame pops up wherever sin pops up, right?
• 1:24:08
  But. Just because shame pops up
• 1:24:11
  doesn't necessarily mean it's your sin, right?
• 1:24:13
  Sometimes you can have secondary embarrassment.
• 1:24:15
  You're sort of horrified by something you see and you're
• 1:24:17
  like, oh, I'm ashamed and I didn't even do it right.
• 1:24:19
  Or, or maybe I cover up because I'm in danger of, you know, I'm
• 1:24:22
  in a dressing room. Somebody barges in on me.
• 1:24:24
  I I feel shame, but it it's. Not because I did anything
• 1:24:27
  wrong, it's because shame pops up wherever someone's dignity is
• 1:24:30
  in danger. He's that's why he says it's a
• 1:24:33
  positive function. Shame we've come to we, we, we
• 1:24:36
  use the word shame in our culture in a different way now,
• 1:24:38
  you know, body shaming or fat shaming and like, wait a minute.
• 1:24:41
  That's that's that. Can be unkind, it can be
• 1:24:46
  uncharitable, but. But shame, the fact that shame
• 1:24:51
  is an experience that accompanies sin.
• 1:24:52
  And he says it can be a gift to us.
• 1:24:54
  It's protective. So if you're ashamed of what's
• 1:24:56
  going on or what your husband's doing to you and your marriage,
• 1:25:01
  it that it's there for a reason. It's the kind of pain, yes, it's
• 1:25:05
  the kind of pain that's a warning.
• 1:25:07
  It's a warning pain and you need to you need to deal with.
• 1:25:11
  It is is again agonizing as that is of course, to our best,
• 1:25:15
  right? We try to protect the
• 1:25:16
  reputations of others, but there's times that that's not an
• 1:25:18
  absolute. I was actually teaching a class
• 1:25:21
  on this to my freshman. We were looking into the 8th
• 1:25:23
  commandment and the what we owe to other people's reputations.
• 1:25:26
  And certainly we have a a grave responsibility not to just trash
• 1:25:30
  people's reputations. You're entitled to your good
• 1:25:32
  name. And in this Internet age, right?
• 1:25:34
  It's just like gossip on steroids.
• 1:25:36
  But we all know that there's a limit.
• 1:25:38
  Sometimes you absolutely have to tell something that's true, even
• 1:25:41
  if it harms a person's reputation, because actually it
• 1:25:44
  is still good for that person. It's the only way to get.
• 1:25:46
  Them to heaven as well. So we have to make sure that we
• 1:25:49
  realize that when shame pops up, it's a warning and it's meant to
• 1:25:52
  be protective and we don't cover up because we think that.
• 1:25:56
  Sort of like 2. Commandments are in tension or
• 1:25:59
  something, no, And that shame is there for a reason not to.
• 1:26:02
  Be. Sort of.
• 1:26:03
  Cloaked you know you can. We have protective impulses,
• 1:26:06
  especially as women write for our children and our husbands.
• 1:26:09
  But, but ultimately. We're there we we can't forget
• 1:26:13
  that we have to protect them by protecting ourselves and
• 1:26:15
  standing on our dignity. So it's.
• 1:26:17
  As hard as that is, and and that is where friends come in, not
• 1:26:20
  telling everybody, you know, you don't like that person that's
• 1:26:22
  always complaining about her, her husband, you know, that's
• 1:26:24
  that's tough. But when we have good friends,
• 1:26:26
  you need good friends. You need them.
• 1:26:27
  And because they can be the ones that sometimes say, you know,
• 1:26:31
  sometimes they can help us to realize, oh, you're normal.
• 1:26:33
  That's hard. All guys are like, it's OK, you
• 1:26:35
  know, but we can also be the ones to say, yeah, that's not
• 1:26:38
  normal. That's not OK.
• 1:26:39
  And so often times you will see when women are in the situation,
• 1:26:43
  sometimes they will isolate. They won't want to hang around
• 1:26:45
  with friends because. It's almost like they'll sense
• 1:26:47
  that, but. At the same time we we just
• 1:26:50
  have. To be encouraging and and open
• 1:26:51
  hearted and, and also we need to make sure that our friends know
• 1:26:55
  that we're not perfect either. We all struggled and gosh, I can
• 1:26:58
  only imagine if my husband was sitting around what he'd
• 1:27:01
  complain about me, you know, like I'm not a perfect person to
• 1:27:03
  live with. And I know that too.
• 1:27:04
  So that we're both, we're both ideally making a lot of.
• 1:27:09
  Sacrifices, but because we love the other.
• 1:27:13
  There is obviously so much more to be said even on that topic
• 1:27:16
  and I feel like that is its own podcast topic of abusive
• 1:27:20
  situation. So I don't want to derail it
• 1:27:21
  because it's like assuming every situation is abusive and it's
• 1:27:24
  not. I thought I and, and again, so
• 1:27:28
  much of this is so beautiful. It's like it's encouraging, it's
• 1:27:30
  encouraging information. I would love to kind of close
• 1:27:34
  this out more on the positive side of things that you found to
• 1:27:38
  be practically helpful tools in expressing respect for your
• 1:27:44
  husband and shoring up his leadership in the marriage and
• 1:27:49
  being more in the posture of receptivity as the wife.
• 1:27:52
  You shared the note about gratitude, which is beautiful.
• 1:27:55
  Any other thoughts? Or that's a great one.
• 1:27:57
  There's always a challenge, especially as your kids get
• 1:28:00
  older. You know, for a long time I just
• 1:28:03
  had little kids. And then your kids get older and
• 1:28:05
  you can talk to them and laugh at things and laugh at each
• 1:28:08
  other's foibles. And there is this temptation.
• 1:28:11
  Oh if I am frustrated at. You know, oh, dad didn't do this
• 1:28:14
  or oh, this, you know, it's really easy to share those
• 1:28:17
  things with your kids. See that it's It's terrible.
• 1:28:21
  It's an instinct. Don't do that.
• 1:28:24
  You don't complain to get kids about your spouse, No.
• 1:28:26
  Yeah. And it's, you know, whether you
• 1:28:27
  don't do it to them when they're 15, don't do it to them when
• 1:28:30
  they're 30. I'm sorry.
• 1:28:30
  It doesn't. Even though we all are adults,
• 1:28:33
  it still hurts because you just, you know, And again, if there's
• 1:28:36
  a real issue and dad's abusing mom, OK, talk to us about it.
• 1:28:39
  But. But just that desire.
• 1:28:40
  Just don't do it. One time I was going off to
• 1:28:44
  class, I would teach my night class at the college and I do it
• 1:28:48
  once a week and I would always have a baby.
• 1:28:50
  I was nursing and my husband would watch the baby for three
• 1:28:52
  hours. I'd go teach.
• 1:28:53
  And I was actually teaching on this very topic and it was
• 1:28:56
  raining outside. And he is an umbrella guy.
• 1:28:59
  He always makes sure I have an umbrella and uses an umbrella.
• 1:29:02
  And I've just never been an umbrella girl.
• 1:29:04
  I would rather just run to the car.
• 1:29:05
  It's just, it's just what I do. So we're standing there.
• 1:29:07
  Time to open the Umbrella I. And by the time you're.
• 1:29:09
  Closing it, you get wet and you're getting in, usually at.
• 1:29:11
  Yourself. So I have my thing, right?
• 1:29:13
  And so we're standing in the doorway and he's trying to give
• 1:29:16
  me an umbrella. And I made kind of an ugly scene
• 1:29:20
  and I kind of stomped out and it was ugly.
• 1:29:22
  I get in the car, I'm prepping my mind for this class I'm about
• 1:29:26
  to teach, and it taunts on me. Oh, he loves me.
• 1:29:30
  He was trying to do something for me, serve me, care for me.
• 1:29:34
  And I was going to tell my students how important that is.
• 1:29:37
  And I just rejected. It it it was.
• 1:29:40
  Totally humiliating, but hopefully totally humbling.
• 1:29:43
  Because he realized. OK, that was a little way.
• 1:29:45
  That was a little way it was. It was nothing, but it was
• 1:29:49
  something. Right.
• 1:29:50
  And so for him. Loving you.
• 1:29:51
  Yes. And to recognize it, it's like
• 1:29:53
  that book, the five love languages, right?
• 1:29:55
  Gifts come in a lot of different ways, shapes and forms.
• 1:29:59
  I'm often astounded as to how many couples don't really take
• 1:30:03
  the time to understand one another's love language.
• 1:30:05
  And it I mean, that goes both ways.
• 1:30:07
  Like it helps men. How can I please her more,
• 1:30:10
  right? And for us, Oh, I totally didn't
• 1:30:12
  recognize. This ad or the other thing, this
• 1:30:14
  gesture, this whatever, because I was looking for a gift in
• 1:30:18
  another way. And so really those, those small
• 1:30:20
  things and they build that culture of the house and they
• 1:30:23
  build that affection between you that can really sustains you.
• 1:30:27
  So I think that that's again, the meat and potatoes of
• 1:30:32
  submission I think happens in these little things.
• 1:30:35
  And it's not some scary micromanaging.
• 1:30:37
  If it is, that's a problem. But it's and so then you say,
• 1:30:40
  OK, well then what? Is it?
• 1:30:41
  It's this? It's this day-to-day
• 1:30:44
  appreciation and trying to serve well.
• 1:30:46
  And it doesn't mean we can't tell him our needs.
• 1:30:49
  But when we do, we usually have to find something to praise
• 1:30:53
  something. We have to communicate our
• 1:30:55
  needs. When I communicate my needs to
• 1:30:57
  my husband, I sometimes have the bad habit of telling him six
• 1:31:01
  things that I need right now, and they're all priority.
• 1:31:04
  The masculine brain usually doesn't work that way, right?
• 1:31:07
  They need to triage. They need to prioritize.
• 1:31:09
  I'll have my husband in the middle of something I asked him
• 1:31:11
  to do and then something else will, will happen And I'll say,
• 1:31:14
  honey, I need you over here. And he's like, you just asked me
• 1:31:17
  to fix the computer, you know, So recognizing how do I
• 1:31:19
  communicate my needs to, to to my husband?
• 1:31:21
  Am I doing it gently? Am I helping prioritize?
• 1:31:24
  Am I praying, Am I praying about this?
• 1:31:27
  Because having our own prayer life, I mean, it's, it's good
• 1:31:30
  for couples to pray together and I recommend it, having your own
• 1:31:33
  prayer. Life is a path on that.
• 1:31:37
  That journey of recognizing your dignity, coming closer to our
• 1:31:40
  Lord. Asking our Lord to help you
• 1:31:42
  prioritize What is it because. Often some husbands can read
• 1:31:47
  minds, others can't. So really, how am I talking to
• 1:31:50
  him about what I need? And am I?
• 1:31:53
  Am I? Am I prioritizing it?
• 1:31:56
  So that's I think just. A concrete thing, one other
• 1:31:58
  thing came to mind and that was, and you kind of touched on it.
• 1:32:01
  We could have another show on it, but it did have to do with
• 1:32:05
  more the intimacy of marriage and sex and.
• 1:32:09
  Have sex? Yes.
• 1:32:10
  Yes. No.
• 1:32:12
  It was enjoy yourself like. This, you know, because I'll see
• 1:32:14
  people debating about, oh, you know, if a wife is feeling
• 1:32:16
  tired, does she have to obey her husband's request?
• 1:32:19
  Well, again, if a wife is. Exhausted.
• 1:32:20
  I don't think that's that's reasonable, right?
• 1:32:23
  It's not a reasonable request. However, you can get into a
• 1:32:26
  pattern in a marriage, especially when you've got
• 1:32:27
  little kids where you're tired all the time, right?
• 1:32:31
  And it's like, well, if I'm tired all the time, what's going
• 1:32:33
  on here? Well, think of it this way.
• 1:32:36
  Husbands, this is a generalization, but they're
• 1:32:39
  problem solvers. They like to solve problems.
• 1:32:41
  They, you know, objectives. How can we fix this?
• 1:32:43
  How can we change this, right? What do I need to be less tired?
• 1:32:47
  Maybe I need a walk, a nap, a shower?
• 1:32:49
  Maybe I need him to help with XYZ, right?
• 1:32:51
  If you communicate those needs to your husband, usually he's
• 1:32:55
  motivated, right? He's going to do it.
• 1:32:57
  And guess what? If you are more energetic and in
• 1:33:01
  the mood and it's not just a sense of duty, it's actually
• 1:33:04
  desire, right? It's going to be more satisfying
• 1:33:07
  and more joyful and that's only going to build and build.
• 1:33:10
  So it's a win win. So instead of saying that, you
• 1:33:14
  know, when we talk about this issue, there has to be this
• 1:33:16
  checklist. Well, you wives have to do this.
• 1:33:18
  They can never say no that you know.
• 1:33:19
  That's not like this. OK, yes, we're called to
• 1:33:22
  reasonably honor our husband's request, just as he is called to
• 1:33:26
  reasonably serve us to the best of his ability.
• 1:33:29
  But if we're in a rut or a pattern, think what?
• 1:33:32
  What could we do? What could I ask him to do for
• 1:33:35
  me that would actually help lift me to where this is better?
• 1:33:38
  And so we're just sometimes we're asking the wrong
• 1:33:40
  questions. And I think there can be a
• 1:33:41
  healthy way in which we we show them gently how they can serve
• 1:33:46
  us better. I love that.
• 1:33:49
  I love that too because it's also the principle of take care
• 1:33:52
  of yourself so you can receive gifts and give them yourself.
• 1:33:56
  And self-care does matter. It does.
• 1:33:58
  And it's a gift to other people to take care of yourself.
• 1:34:00
  So. You can be a gift, that's what.
• 1:34:02
  It comes down to Mary. This is so lovely.
• 1:34:05
  How can people find your book and follow your work?
• 1:34:08
  Yes. So our my book is published by
• 1:34:11
  our Sunday Visitor, but it's also it's on Amazon.
• 1:34:14
  I don't quite have a platform, but they can find me at
• 1:34:16
  Christendom College again where I teach.
• 1:34:18
  So I have a little page. There and and there's.
• 1:34:21
  Yes, and we're going to be linking all of my other.
• 1:34:23
  Sort of interviews and things that I've done there.
• 1:34:26
  But I love hearing your perspective, especially because
• 1:34:28
  you're living it. And that's such a refreshing
• 1:34:32
  gift, I think, to other women to be open about that and then also
• 1:34:37
  provide that philosophical framework.
• 1:34:38
  So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:34:41
  Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Lila Rose
• 1:34:43
  show. Let me know what you think.
• 1:34:44
  I loved hearing from you all. I read the comments so you can
• 1:34:47
  leave a comment here on YouTube or over on Spotify.
• 1:34:50
  And also by reviewing the show, leaving us five stars, you can
• 1:34:53
  also help the show reach more people.
• 1:34:55
  So please do that. I appreciate it and I read every
• 1:34:57
  single one of the reviews. Also don't forget if you're
• 1:35:00
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• 1:35:02
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• 1:35:05
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• 1:35:15
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• 1:35:20
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• 1:35:23
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