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Intimacy (aka S-E-X) w/Dan Purcell of "Get Your Marriage On!" · The Virtual Couch

0:00
Music.
0:21
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 371 of the Virtual Couch. I am your host Tony Overbay.
0:27
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. And today I feel like we have to say, hey,
0:32
close the door and let me pull the shades down and let me whisper into the microphone.
0:37
Because we're talking about sex. And that is such a funny thing because I've been a
0:41
marriage therapist for 17 years and I like to say that I've helped 13, 1400 couples or
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more and sex comes up in pretty much every couple's therapy situation. I won't
0:52
say every session. I have a lot of jokes around when people are maybe from a more
0:57
orthodox religious background. I work with a lot of that population. Then it's
1:01
usually about three or four sessions in where somebody says, hey I don't know if
1:04
you ever talk about this but sex. Do you know anything about it? And literally as
1:08
a marriage and family therapist and I have taken a tremendous amount of courses and continuing education units and part of your grad school work is
1:15
is working in the world of sex therapy. That joke about the orthodox, the real heavy orthodox
1:20
religious couple, then we eventually then start talking about sex and it ends up just.
1:24
Being amazing conversations where it all falls back into we don't know what we don't know.
1:28
We have certain things that we bring into our relationships, assumptions, and then it's
1:32
an awkward topic to talk about. So my four pillars of a connected conversation actually
1:36
work really, really well when you talk about sex. But we give it this code name of intimacy
1:41
because that sounds a little more, a little safer. I don't know. And that's what's funny
1:45
is I talk about pornography more than I talk about sex or intimacy, but the sex intimacy
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is in more of the work that I do than pornography. And pornography is supposed to be the Lord
1:57
Voldemort of phrases because I've now learned that if I try to put that on a reel on Instagram
2:02
or TikTok, I have to call it corn or cornography or you have a corn addiction, which confuses
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a lot of people because there are a lot of corn products out these days, I will be honest.
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When it comes to talking about intimacy and sex, for some reason that does almost somewhat put a
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little record scratch or, oh my gosh, okay, it's getting real. We're about to talk real serious.
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So, I recognize I need to do a little self-confrontation, sit with a little of that
2:24
discomfort because it's not uncomfortable at all to talk about it in the office or actually at a
2:28
church party or with somebody at the grocery store and that's probably where it's a little
2:32
too comfortable for me to talk about it. But on my podcast, and we talk about this today with my
2:37
guest Dan Purcell. It's a really fun interview and I was on Dan's podcast a
2:42
couple of months ago and I would like to run that as a bonus episode because I
2:45
really felt like Dan and I had a really good vibe. But Dan has a website, he has
2:49
apps, he has a podcast, he has a large following on social media. He and his
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wife have a website called Get Your Marriage On and it's talking about
2:56
having more fun and being more playful around sex.
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So I'm really excited to talk about this today because Dan is just so open about the.
3:07
Almost the shame or secrecy around sex and intimacy when you come into a marriage.
3:11
Okay, I thought, okay, I know I'm going somewhere with, I started just jumping right in and talking
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about Dan. At the beginning of the podcast, you'll hear where I talk about the fact that
3:20
I think I still have this view that the majority of my listeners and the response and the downloads
3:25
and everything is just, I'm so grateful and I'm so appreciative. So I'm assuming that out of the
3:30
7-8 million downloads that it isn't the fact that 90% of them have all the kids in the minivan
3:35
as they listen. Probably not very many at all. So I think that's the part where I still want to just
3:39
talk about intimacy and whisper. Although I want to be completely open and we need to talk more
3:44
openly about sex. One of these days I need to do a podcast talking about how to talk to your kids
3:49
about sex because that was some of the most fun conversations I feel like my wife and I had with
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with each one of our four kids.
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And only to find out down the road that they don't remember much about it at all.
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But for us, we felt like, oh, what a significant event.
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And this is leading up to actually, and this wasn't something I was thinking about plugging,
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but I just wrapped up a webinar or a training,
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for the upcoming, the Dating Divas, and I was invited to participate in this last year
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and I didn't get around to it, I jumped on the chance this year.
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But it is their 2023 sex seminar and it's a virtual seminar that I'll have links to
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coming up very soon. But it's one of these things where they put together, I think it's 20 or 25
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experts and they have everything that are talking very specifically about how to talk about sex and
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how to make sex more fun and all these sorts of things. And they asked me to come in and I was
4:35
really grateful for it. The boring title, behind the scenes title was the anatomy of a healthy
4:40
relationship, which I said, Oh, I would love to talk about that. And I really, I'm really grateful
4:45
that I had the opportunity to lay that out. I did the old starting from exiting the womb all the way
4:49
up till today and understanding that we don't know what we don't know and talking about our
4:53
abandonment and our attachment and how we show up in the concept of the four pillars. So I really
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will encourage you to go get that whole seminar. It's one of those things where it's going to be
5:01
very inexpensive, but then you get all of the speakers. But here's what the title of that.
5:07
It's no longer the anatomy of a healthy relationship. It is Relationship Tools You
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you don't know you need, tips and tools born from 15 years of practice with 1500 couples.
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So that's what their amazing copy editor can do with taking the anatomy of a healthy relationship,
5:22
and turning it into the relationship tools that you don't even know that you need.
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So I thought that this was perfect timing to have Dan on and we talk more about sexuality
5:29
in your relationship, the ups and downs and highs and lows and how we talk about it and
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the awkwardness of when we don't.
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And then I'll have more information on the Dating Divas 2023 Sex Seminar coming up in
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probably the next few weeks. I think they're going to really start promoting that heavily.
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So with that said, let's get to this interview with Dan Purcell and please go find all of
5:48
Dan's info in the show notes because there were things that I was learning at the very
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end of the episode that I wasn't aware of the depth and breadth of the tools that Dan
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and his wife offer through their Get Your Marriage On website and apps and podcasts
6:00
and all those things.
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So I hope you'll enjoy this interview with Dan Purcell of Get Your Marriage On.
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Music.
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Come on in and take a seat on the virtual couch. And action.
6:13
Okay, Dan, welcome to the virtual couch. How are you? Thank you.
6:18
So happy to be here, Tony. Okay, so this is the part where I told Dan, we got on and I said, Dan, don't say a word
6:22
because I just want to just capture this pure gold because I really enjoy being on your
6:26
podcast. I felt like we had a real fun interaction and I feel like we covered three hours and about 45 minutes.
6:33
So I'm gonna link that in the show notes. But then I sat there thinking about that and I thought,
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man, I forgot that I'm the one that, I think the first time we were supposed to record,
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I got a notification, I was on my way to Disneyland a couple days before Christmas
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and I felt horrible calling that off.
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And then I think last week, I think the morning of, I realized I had someone else in your spot.
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It's bad, it makes me sound like I'm completely disorganized but so you've been so patient and I really appreciate that.
6:57
So here we are. And you've read Death in the Family too.
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Oh yeah, that's right. Okay, man, that's, yeah.
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My mother-in-law and what an amazing woman. So you're right. So I'm just grateful that we are.
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Here and we're talking. So there's my first just thank you so much. But okay, here's the funny
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part to me, Dan, and I'm going to take you on my train of thought. I'm going to do all this. I'm
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going to be emotionally immature. I'm going to talk about healthy ego. I'll make it really quick.
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But I realized that I, so I'm a marriage therapist. I've been doing it for 17, 18 years. When I put
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your episode out here, I think it will be pushing close to 370 episodes of the virtual couch.
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And I realized what we're probably going to talk about today, one of your areas of expertise,
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As a couples therapist, I talk about every day, multiple times a day, but I haven't really talked about it much on the podcast, which is really funny.
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And it's not like I'm afraid of talking about sex or intimacy or anything.
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So I really don't have a good reason why I don't. I literally talk about it hours every day for 15 years.
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And so I don't know. And I was thinking about that because you and I talked on yours about self-confrontation and sitting with uncomfortable feelings.
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And I'm not uncomfortable with it.
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Again, I haven't done this for a long time.
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And all I could think about was there's a part of me that still thinks that for some reason,
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moms are listening to the virtual couch in the minivan and the kids are back there, you know,
8:13
listening along. But I don't think, because I got one email about five years ago of somebody
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saying that, but I think that was probably the one person that was listening to it in the minivan.
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So there's that part of me that still feels like, oh, the kids are present. We can't talk about S-E-X.
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So I thought I could come up with, so I'm excited to see where we go today. So there's
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self-confrontation number one, and then self-confrontation number two is I am really going to check
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my ego because I want, you're the guest and I want to hear everything that you have to
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offer and I think that early on, this is why I love what we talked about in your podcast
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and I still recommend my listeners to go listen. We talked a lot about that self-confrontation
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and differentiation and not needing your spouse to validate you and I really worry, thank
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goodness I don't like to hear myself talk so I'm not going to go back and listen, but
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I would imagine early on in my interviews.
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I wanted to make sure that the people knew I knew what I'm talking about, you know, because I'm a therapist.
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And so this is I'm also going to sit with the perhaps potential uncomfortable feelings of wanting you to know that I'm smart, too, Dan.
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So I am not going to I want to hear your story. I want you to go. I'm not going to I'm going to try not to say, you know what I think about that, Dan, because I want to know what you think about the things we're going to talk about.
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So if you're OK with that, I really would love for you to do a lot of the driving.
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And I just want to kind of hear your story and how you got where you are
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and what you like talking about and working with.
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I don't know, how's that sound? Sounds great, sounds great.
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Okay. Let's see, so my wife and I have been married over 19 years and we met each other in eighth grade.
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So we've known each other for a really long time.
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Were there breakups along the way or was it love at first sight on this group?
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It's not that romantic.
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We were just the same group of friends. We went on a few dance dates together,
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but I was really shy.
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And she was popular. So there wasn't a chance.
10:01
Just trying to stay in her orbit, so to speak, in a sense. Exactly.
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Is that what the goal was? Okay. Right, but we never dated seriously in high school.
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I served a mission and had a fantastic experience. Came back a year later.
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Sorry. Where'd you go? Japan. I served in Japan.
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Oh. Nihongo sukoshi wo karimasu.
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Ah, ii desu ne.
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This is about the only phrase I used to try out. Look at me, I'm already, let me tell you
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about my experiences in Japan, Dan. That's fascinating because I used to go there
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when I was in my computer career and I loved everything about Japan.
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Did you enjoy your time there, out of curiosity? Yes, yeah, in fact, I was born in Japan.
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So I lived there. Really? Yeah, I went up through second grade in Japan.
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So I already knew Japanese. They kicked me out of the NTC early,
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so I got more time than my peers in Japan.
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It was really good. Where, okay, so I used to travel to Tokyo,
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which is huge, but this place called Hachioji was one of the places we traveled a lot.
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I'm curious if you know, where did you serve? Where all did you go?
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I served in Hokkaido, which is the most northern island. Hokkaido?
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Okay, oh wow, that's quite a, that's a different experience than Tokyo.
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Yeah, it's like the Montana of Japan. Really cold. So, and out of curiosity,
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do you still use your Japanese skills or the language skills at this point?
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So my dad served his mission in Japan, so he speaks Japanese.
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My younger brother served in Japan too, so we speak Japanese.
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And we grew up there, so as a family, within our family, we can speak Japanese to each other.
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It comes really in handy when we're out in public, we know others around us know what we're talking about.
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I would think that, and that's actually where I was going, but I think that would just be so amazing and fun
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to be able to do that.
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Okay, last quick Japanese point. I love the food and there was a thing there
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called shabu-shabu. Are you familiar with that?
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Yeah, yeah, the really thin sliced beef.
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Yeah, you just drag around in boiling water and then that is pretty amazing.
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Yeah, so I don't know. What were your favorite foods or what's your favorite Japanese food?
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I don't know if I had to pick one it'd be street ramen. Oh, yeah Not like the ramen here, you know, it's
12:02
Yeah, it's on a class of its own. It's I miss that especially when it's winter time
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Okay, this is fun. We will get to for those listening. We're gonna get to an incredible topic, but I enjoy.
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Here we are being in the moment and boy I love that when you can connect and if I throw my now I throw my therapy hat because don't forget dan
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I want you to know i'm a therapist, uh, but now dan and I are having a A shared experience and now we will always remember this and it will be amazing and wonderful.
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But very quickly on that, the ramen to me, like why that's significant is I probably
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was there 10 times before I tried sushi. I didn't like sushi at all.
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So then I would just devour ramen everywhere I went until I finally did try the sushi.
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And now that's 25 years later and I've loved it ever since.
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But yes, nothing like Japanese ramen there off the street.
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Yeah. Yeah. In fact, that reminds me of a story. I didn't like the idea of eating anything raw, like sashimi or sushi.
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And I didn't like sushi either because to me, rice should be hot and steamy, not cold
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and sweet. And vinegary, the sushi rice usually is.
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And I served in a very cold part of Japan and one particular day we had no appointments.
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So we were just outside all day, snow up to our waist, just knocking on door after door,
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one's letting us in. And it was just a really miserable day. It was cloudy. We're just frozen.
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But we had one appointment at 8.30 at night at the very tail end of the day, and it was really
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on the outskirts of town. We had a hard time finding them. They lived at the top of this hill,
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and so it was like, we're slipping on the ice and snow, you know, getting into their house.
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And very modest home. They don't have like a traditional Western door. They had the Eastern,
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like gliding door. We opened that, come inside, and guess what they had served us for dinner?
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Pete Warm rice? David Sashimi and sushi. Pete Sashimi.
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Pete Okay. David The raw stuff, right?
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Pete Oh, yeah. David And I was so hungry. I was so tired. And after being rejected all day long to have someone go through this, it's expensive. It's an expensive
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meal that they're really putting out to have the missionaries come over. And I couldn't turn him
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I'm down. Anyway, that was the best sushi and sashimi I ever was. And from that point
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forward, I didn't have a problem with it. Because I love it. You know, yeah, and that
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moment was meaningful. Yeah, again, being very present there. And were you a fan ever
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since that was that did that sell you? Or was that just an isolated experience based
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off of all the things that led up to that moment? I know from that point forward, I
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didn't have a problem with it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, if I can do it here, I can do
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it there. And I think that's like a principle that we can really build on for a conversation
14:40
today, because that's, it's like faith. We need to try things. We need to do an experiment
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on things, but we also need to do it with a willing heart.
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So, my wife and I both come from really good families, but sex wasn't talked about much
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at all in our homes. And if it was, it was either about biological reproduction or the thou shalt not talk.
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There's not a lot of conversation about how to build a great and exciting sex life.
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So because no one really ever talked about it, we both inherited some anxieties about it.
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I remember our wedding night, we were so excited to be together and to have this new experience
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together, but I didn't know. I kind of had an idea what was supposed to happen because
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all the lyrics to all the love songs say, you know, you make love all night long.
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Russian. So we make love for the first time and my body doesn't last all night long.
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I think the Hall and Oates have a song, did it in a minute. Maybe that's like more applicable,
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right? Probably.
15:43
But I love what you're saying though, because you're right, it does tie into even your sashimi
15:49
and sushi experience. I mean, you absolutely in that sense, don't know what you don't know until you know it.
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Boy, knowledge can be such a hindsight principle because you wouldn't have even known the right
15:58
questions to ask heading into your wedding night because you weren't modeled a way to talk about it.
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And now back into that role of marriage therapist, I do feel like most of the conversations when
16:08
we finally start talking about sex are, well, tell me what that was like growing up.
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What certain things meant, what are expectations, and it's just a conversation that gets really
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immediately awkward and full of a lot of judgment and a lot of assumptions and then a lot of shame.
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So, yeah. So, how'd you navigate from there?
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– Not very well, because I had a hard time reconciling spirituality and sexuality. Like,
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spiritual people aren't sexual, yet I have sexual desires. And so, that's constantly in combat.
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And like, kind of the running story in my head was like, sex is all about the, quote unquote,
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the natural man, because I really didn't understand then what natural man really meant. I thought it
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meant any natural desires. I tried to suppress my sexuality, sexual desires. Like, here's an example,
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maybe two weeks after I was married, sex is so new, I'm excited about it, and I have all these
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questions. And at BYU-Idaho at the time, I go to the library and I get the courage to search
17:04
something about sex or something, and I found a textbook on human sexuality and thought.
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If this library has such a book, I'm sure it'd be a helpful resource for them. So, I write down the
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call number, I go to that section of the library, and I don't want anyone to know that I'm there.
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I don't want anyone to like, make sure no one's like, looking at me as I take that book off the
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shelf. I tuck it under my arm, and to my bad luck, it was like a woman at the checkout, like,
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scanning, checking out my book. I didn't make any eye contact with her. I don't want you to know
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I'm getting this book.
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I put it in my backpack. And anyway, later on, like that night, I flip open the book.
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I'm just leafing through the pages. And I see like an illustration of a couple having sex,
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like in the 69 position or something like that, just a drawing. And I freaked out. Oh,
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no, this is pornography. I'm not supposed to be looking at this. So I shut the book,
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and I promptly returned the book, never to get any answers to my questions because I thought
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I shouldn't be looking at it. Bad.
18:05
And look at that right there, Dan, even the, like you're going into some, I'm a very old man and I worked in the video store industry 30 years ago.
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And it's as if you were going into that behind that back wall where all the R-rated and pornography movies were and your trench coat with your hat pulled down.
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And what I was trying to do was learn about this natural thing that occurs with couples.
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And so that, and then the fact that you're going to a literally clinical textbook for it and then you even see the things and then feel like I did something wrong.
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There's so much there.
18:33
I felt like I did something wrong. Right. Yeah. So, my wife and I have always, I guess you could say, a really good marriage. Like, we have a great emotional connection. We know how to play together. We're good. We have prioritized date nights throughout our marriage. Like, we've been comfortable talking about a lot of things.
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So, fast forward 13 years, so, 13 years into my marriage. I am having the conversation with a friend and he opens up to me about his sex life.
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He starts telling me some of the things he and his wife are doing in bed and I'm like, really?
19:08
Good people do those things? And he has a very vibrant and creative sex life.
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And I guess you could call it, I had morbid curiosity. It's like, oh, no, no, wait, tell me more, tell me more.
19:20
No, no, no, don't tell me, but tell me a little more.
19:24
Yeah, yeah. so fascinated that here's a good man that,
19:28
enjoys sex with his wife, and they're very creative, and the reason why he was telling me these things wasn't to brag or anything like that, it was, he was trying to tell me that ever since he and his wife really started working on their sexual relationship, their bond became a lot stronger.
19:45
They're better friends, they communicate better, they parent together better, there's all these benefits he's experienced in his life when he's really put the effort into making sex great for he and his wife.
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And he had something that I did not have.
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I could notice that. And so this was kind of my moment where I'm like, well, maybe all along I've been wrong.
20:06
Maybe there is more to sex.
20:07
Maybe there's a lot of goodness in sex that I've just been dismissing because of the way I've been thinking.
20:14
So it really forced me to really confront my thoughts about it.
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Tell me about that, too. when you think that, is there, okay, you may start to feel like, yeah, maybe I am okay,
20:22
but is that still something that is scary to try to bring to your wife?
20:27
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I go home that night and say, hey, hey, Emily, you'd never guess what kind
20:33
of conversation I had today. Now, part of the conversation with my friend is he told me that
20:39
I think in his marriage, his wife has the one, has a higher desire for sex. So she basically told him
20:45
that he's not a good enough lover at the time, and he needs to, like, figure things out because
20:51
she's not satisfied or whatever. And which he took very personally at first. He didn't like
20:58
hearing that from her. But since I made an effort to make it great for her, and then it's great for
21:04
him, that's kind of how the story evolved, right? So, I'm really self-conscious now with my wife.
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Am I a good enough lover? Are you enjoying our time together? And our model, I guess our model
21:16
of what sex looks like or what it was supposed to look like up until then was always in the dark,
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10 minute missionary position and you're done. Like, yeah.
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That's kind of a quote-unquote avoiding anything unnatural and not knowing what that was, what that
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meant and just being modeled that that was probably the way we do things. And so, my mind's blown,
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like, no, there's other ways to do this. So, now my wife and I are having this conversation about
21:43
us and our sex life, and we probably had the most vulnerable conversation about sex in our marriage
21:48
to that point in our marriage then. We were up till like 2am talking that night about us and
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and what we think about this. What do you think about this? Is this okay? How do we
21:58
know if this is okay? This is so different from our experience yet there seems to be
22:03
more here than we're experiencing.
22:05
I do. I appreciate it because I feel like people will have these, like what you said,
22:08
the most vulnerable conversation and I won't go into I love my four pillars and there needs
22:12
to have, I think a framework is ideal. But I do feel like at times when we get vulnerable,
22:17
it is more of a, do you feel like you were coming from this place of curiosity and then
22:20
and just this collaboration versus why don't you?
22:23
Or do you feel like it was a different vibe in the conversation altogether?
22:27
Yeah, but we're both, I was really scared talking about these things, because we haven't.
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We didn't talk about these things ever.
22:34
And there's a lot of judgment involved, a lot of self-judgment.
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What does she think about me?
22:39
Does she think I'm gonna be some sex maniac or something? Like there's a lot of that self-judgment too.
22:45
You're really self-conscious going into the conversation. What will she think?
22:49
If I really tell her my experience, what I think, and things like that.
22:54
Yeah, well, and I think this is that, why it is so important to talk about this,
22:57
is as a couples therapist, I always talk about this as one of those, I call them a high charge topic,
23:01
and then I almost feel bad because that puts such pressure on having the conversation, but I really do feel like
23:07
having a good foundational principle of a connection and having a way to communicate is necessary
23:12
so that it doesn't happen like what you're saying.
23:14
So I think we're all gonna worry that, okay, if I really say this, she's gonna think
23:18
that I am a deviant and then she's gonna wanna leave. I think it hit that core attachment wound of,
23:23
will you still care about me? Do you love me?
23:25
And so that's where I feel like I even like when you're saying, guess what conversation I had?
23:29
And we still almost wanna put it out there as testing the waters.
23:32
And almost like worried that if she says, you better not have talked to one of your friends
23:36
about sex, because then we would probably go, no, no, it wasn't that.
23:39
Of course it wasn't. We're still wanting to lean into that. But I appreciate what you're saying though,
23:43
because we're going into it already worried.
23:45
And I think that's that part where we're all little bit and meshed and codependent to a point, but then have these different experiences
23:51
in life. And then, but when we start talking about them, there's that fear of, if I say
23:56
the wrong thing, is this all or nothing, they're gone. They'll leave me, which is not the case.
24:00
That's not the case. But there is a reason why we hadn't talked about it to that point.
24:04
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So then, yeah, so then, and so we push through it. Courage,
24:10
courage forward, onward.
24:12
And do you feel like Dan, at that moment, do you feel like there was, I don't know,
24:15
If you had to rate your assumptions around what her beliefs were, were you close to the
24:20
mark or did you learn a lot that you weren't aware of or what was that like?
24:24
I would say that's a both and or yes and no. I live with her. I've known her for a long,
24:31
long time, so I know pretty much how she's going to respond to things. Yet, I was blown away at
24:38
her compassion and her openness and understanding. I didn't expect that much, like, that she held
24:44
space for me to kind of explore this with her during that conversation. And likewise, I wanted
24:51
to hold space for her to explore her thoughts because we really haven't put a lot of brainpower
24:56
to really examining this topic of our marriage because we always thought this is a topic of the
25:02
marriage you don't examine. You kind of let it be. I love your answer because it's the yes and
25:07
because I really do feel like this is where that we observe and we judge in the same motion with
25:11
our spouse. So and that's where I feel like even the concepts around, oh man, can you believe that
25:16
so-and-so, you know, whatever, that they do this in their life. And we're kind of making that bid
25:22
to our partner of, what do you think? Because if you really get angry about this, then I know.
25:26
Or then we observe things where, you know, I've had some really good sessions with people where
25:30
maybe a wife has started to open up about why she may feel shut down in certain times during sex.
25:36
And where the guy has then said, no, I know, I know that that's because of this. And then she's
25:40
saying, no, it might date back to a previous relationship or some childhood trauma. And so,
25:45
So I like what you're saying, because I think we, over time, even if we think, oh, no, I know.
25:49
I know my spouse. No, we know what we're observing and we know the judgments that we make, but we're, and
25:53
then we do that long enough. And now we even just assume.
25:56
And even when they try to open up to us, often I think we say, no, no, no, I know, I know.
26:01
You can be honest with me when, I mean, they're trying. So I love what you're saying there.
26:05
So then what was that process like from there? You have that vulnerable conversation and then the next day, did you feel an emotional
26:10
hangover or did you feel excitement or what was that like?
26:13
I guess excitement, because that conversation didn't end then.
26:17
Right.
26:17
Probably for the next two weeks, we're up late every night talking about things and
26:21
what do you think about things like that. We both concluded we needed more information,
26:26
and being scared to even Google our sex questions, we thought maybe a book would be helpful. So,
26:32
we did Google like a Christian author, like, sex book, and found one. It came in the mail.
26:39
We read a little bit together that night. She fell asleep because she's tired. And I think I
26:44
stayed up to 4 a.m. and I binge read and finished the entire book in one night. It was awesome.
26:49
Like you have the permission now to read that kind of thing.
26:52
Yes. Get rid of those BYU-Idaho library days and that very moment.
26:56
Yeah. And the vibe of this particular book was like perfect for what I needed at that time.
27:02
Okay.
27:03
It was basically giving me permission that sex is a good and helpful and wholesome and
27:08
amazing thing, which is very different than the narrative I had been giving myself.
27:13
It was something to be tolerated, not something to be embraced and celebrated.
27:18
So that's what I needed at that time. So where things go from there.
27:22
So now a couple of weeks and you're still talking, you're reading books, and then you don't know what happened.
27:26
I should also mention I had a lot of questions about what's OK and not OK.
27:31
I think a lot of people have that. So do you know Jeff Stewer?
27:34
I think you know Jeff Stewer. Yeah, so Jeff and I have had our Home and Away podcast as well.
27:38
And what's funny that you're talking about this too, I have him coming up soon to talk about consent in relationships.
27:45
And in my world a lot, when I'm working with clients, and we can maybe get to this in a minute,
27:50
but I find that people do fall into these particular patterns or ruts in sex, whether it's talking about
27:55
things like duty sex or whether the guy is going to,
27:58
I mean, I had a guy put it so well, and I'm sorry, I know I am going on a tangent, but Jeff is such a good
28:02
person to talk about this with, but the concepts around consent, where if a wife is saying, I don't necessarily
28:07
feel like doing a certain thing, but then the guy is
28:10
saying, okay, but I can get you to orgasm, for example.
28:14
And then he feels like, see, that was worth it. But the wife said, I don't want to, to begin with.
28:19
And then I've had that conversation so many times where then the guy feels like, no, but I got us,
28:23
I mean, a guy said recently, and I appreciate it, he said, no, I got us to the promised land.
28:27
And she said, no, you didn't respect my boundary.
28:30
And then, right? And so often I will have a guy say, but you had an orgasm.
28:34
And that's where I have a classic line of, okay, well, yeah, if you're asking if the 20,000 nerve endings
28:40
in her vagina responded to stimulation, then yes. But was she a part of that? No, not mentally.
28:46
And so anyway, so Jeff's gonna come on and talk more about that concept of consent,
28:49
because consent sounds like things in dating or that sort of thing,
28:53
but I think in the marital relationship, that's important.
28:56
But I digress. Tell me, Dan. Suggests that I live in the same neighborhood.
29:00
Oh, you do? So, we see each other in church and I really respect Jeff and I figured of all people to
29:07
help me understand where's the line of what's okay and not okay, he'd be it. So, I say,
29:12
Jeff, can we go to lunch? He's like, sure, we'll go to lunch. So, we're at Chick-fil-A
29:16
and I get all my courage and I ask him all my questions. And so, we're talking about.
29:22
Everything in explicit detail and I feel so sorry for the family sitting next to us at Chick-fil-A.
29:27
They're sending the kids into the ball pit voluntarily, right?
29:32
Yeah. This is my chats.
29:34
He was so encouraging. He was so like, he was so like, amazing.
29:40
Yeah, this stuff is fantastic.
29:42
Keep, he was encouraging, keep going. This is good. You'll figure this out.
29:46
So I guess we just started progressing a little more. And then within a few months, I say within two months, our sex life went from good to,
29:55
I guess it wasn't bad, but we didn't know any better. Right? To like, Oh, he smokes
30:00
amazing. Like we started experiencing a lot of change, a lot of excitement and vibrancy.
30:06
And then all the things my friend talked about, our bond became stronger. We were communicating.
30:11
If we could talk about that, we can talk about anything. And so our level of communication
30:16
just deepened and all of a sudden the sky was bluer, the grass was greener. I'm performing
30:20
better at work. Like I'm whistling. There's like a pep in my step. There's so much in
30:25
life that was like so much better when our sex life just became amazing. Those twitter-pated
30:32
feelings I had early on in our relationship all came flooding back in full force and we're flirting
30:38
with each other all the time. Just the level of playfulness in our relationship just went up
30:44
like an order of a magnitude because.
30:48
The vibrancy of what we're experiencing together. And so I'm curious too, do you feel like were there still these experiences where there were not tonight?
30:56
Or did you feel like it was if somebody was saying that this was something that you wanted to do, then okay, we're doing this.
31:02
Was there any of the letdown? Not even letdown, that's the wrong way to frame it.
31:06
But do you know what I mean though? Because it sounds like right now when you're saying, okay, it was just this euphoric high.
31:11
And I think a lot of couples that I work with will often feel that because we finally talked about the elephant in the room.
31:16
But then it's, but we still don't really necessarily talk about, okay, when maybe the euphoria dips a bit, it doesn't mean that, okay, now we're going to go all the way back to where we were and how to find that area in the middle, the gray or that, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.
31:29
So I'm still very immature and had a, have a lot of growing to do.
31:33
So yes, we've experienced all of those things and it was still growing in all those areas.
31:40
However, I got to say, I think growth and progression happens.
31:44
Not, it's not so linear.
31:46
Right? Our growth is a sylvan year. Like we have growth spurts where you grow, grow, grow,
31:50
then you hit a limit and then you kind of stay at that plateau for a while or it might feel like
31:55
you digress for a little bit and then something else happens and then you have another growth
31:58
spurt so you hit your next limit and you digress for a while. That's been my experience and I think
32:04
that's the experience for a lot of couples. So yeah, there was like we're on this high for a
32:09
while feels like the honeymoon again and the honeymoon phase kind of you know wears off a
32:13
a little bit, but then we don't stay there for a very long time. We want to keep growing
32:19
and progressing, and so you've kind of go there. And in all of that, because we're at
32:25
a different level, the challenges that we now have in our marriage are going to look
32:31
very different at that level than they were at the lower level. So, things are better
32:37
in some ways, but we have new challenges. So, things feel worse sometimes because the
32:41
the challenges look different.
32:43
So we're always leveling up because there's always another level, I think.
32:47
Do you start to identify patterns of when things start to maybe flatten out?
32:51
Is there, I don't know, the seasonal things, work-related things, kid-related things?
32:56
Do you start to identify things that then you can bring awareness to to foster that growth in a sense?
33:01
Okay, yes.
33:03
So as far as patterns go, well, there's life and life happens.
33:08
Like my daughter, my 16-year-old daughter's in it, just finished a play. She was in a production. She had a, anyway, it means late nights and
33:18
I'm driving her there to play practice and picking her up late night. And it kind of
33:22
disrupted our, my wife and I, our mojo and how we spend our evenings together. Yeah.
33:27
Things like that do happen. Life happens. And do you guys were communicating about that in real time or was that something where you
33:33
would then all of a sudden feel like, okay, something's off. And then we go back and review
33:37
the game film or again, you have to know what's happening as it's happening?
33:42
I guess.
33:43
Yes. or.
33:45
We go into it knowing that, all right, daughter of a play practice,
33:49
this means this is gonna happen.
33:51
So part of my personal growth is, I guess, learning how to self-soothe a lot better
33:56
around things like this.
33:58
And that's a skill I don't think people teach enough, learning how to calm the heck down around things
34:04
when they don't go exactly the way you had hoped to go and just being okay with that.
34:09
And what's that look like? And I think this is some of the stuff we talked about
34:11
on your podcast, which I so appreciate, because yeah, and maybe that's a good context.
34:16
I hope it doesn't feel like I was trying to set you up for an answer or anything, but I like what you're saying
34:20
because I feel like in the perfect world, we know when we can say, okay,
34:23
what are things gonna look like while our daughters play practice?
34:27
One of us can be driving, we may be tired, we maybe need to communicate more.
34:31
Or I find the couples that in the middle of it, they recognize something's off
34:34
and then they are able to communicate about it, assuming the good intentions.
34:38
And so now we recognize, okay, oh, this is what's happening.
34:40
Can we make adjustments?
34:42
And I worry that too often it's the now we realize we are just off.
34:46
And then we start trying to take a look at what happened.
34:48
And now in hindsight, I feel like that hindsight piece is pretty important.
34:52
And I worry at times that couples, they don't want to, quote, dredge up the past or.
34:56
Well, that's but I really feel like you can analyze that data if you have a nice framework
35:00
and look at it at a place of, OK, that happened.
35:02
What was my role?
35:04
And so that's where I was going. But I like what you're saying about the self-soothing, too, because what does that look like?
35:08
What have you learned?
35:09
I've got a few thoughts on this, and I'm not saying I'm always really good at this, but I'm getting better and better at it.
35:15
The first thought I had is, you know the old story about the Indian chief teaching his son that there's two wolves on him, right?
35:23
One has a death instinct, one has a life instinct. Well, which one wins? The one you feed, right?
35:28
I think that's really true, and it happens on a microscopic level in our marriages.
35:32
Like. It's this idea of, are things a year from now going to be worse between us, or things between
35:38
us are going to be better a year between us, a year from now. So, it's, I guess, kind of like
35:43
an optimism versus a pessimistic outlook. And it might sound silly to say, but when you feed the
35:50
wolf that says things are going to be worse, you know, a year from now because of this or that.
35:58
But it does manifest itself in the way you relate to each other.
36:02
Because you tend to withdraw a little more, justify your resentments or there's... because you're like, oh, we're already heading down this
36:09
path, and that's the wolf you're feeding. But there's also the other wolf you can feed. Yeah, things are really bad now, it could be a lot worse, but if things
36:17
can be worse, I think that means things could be better. So, I'm going to do those things that advocate for or fight for something better.
36:27
There's also entropy is at stake. I mean, it's a very powerful force in any relationship.
36:32
Yeah, talk about that. The marital, yeah. The marital entropy, if you just leave things as
36:37
they are, they deteriorate. Is that the concept? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
36:41
So it is a constant uphill thing. So it's exhausting sometimes, but it is a fight to.
36:48
Prioritize each other. It's a fight to make sure we're connecting. It's a fight to make space for
36:54
for both of us to express what we need or what we want
36:58
out of our relationship together.
37:00
So those are forces to fight against.
37:02
I love that I haven't thought about the wolf you feed in a long time,
37:05
because I do feel like there's so much there where what you seek, you will find.
37:09
If you want to find the ways that your spouse is not there for you the way you would like,
37:14
you're going to find that. If you're going to find the ways
37:16
that you can show up different, you will find that.
37:18
And I like what you're saying, I haven't put that in the context of that wolf you feed analogy,
37:22
because I really do like that a lot.
37:24
Because if I want to find my part in something, I'll find it.
37:26
If I want to find her part in something, I'll find it.
37:29
And then I really feel like if I'm going to look for what she's doing,
37:32
then I have to acknowledge the fact that I am basically saying that I'm not at fault. This isn't a me issue.
37:37
And I would rather have somebody start with, oh, it's a me issue, because I only know really
37:41
what I'm going through.
37:42
Another tactic that helps me is paying attention to the story I'm telling myself.
37:46
And I play the game two truths and a lie.
37:49
Cool. Tell me more about that. Yeah, so often it's like, we'll never X, Y, Z, or she'll never want this or whatever.
37:58
And so then I built this story in my head. I keep telling myself the story over and over that she's never going to want to do X in
38:06
bed with me or whatever it might be, right?
38:08
Yeah.
38:09
We'll never achieve this or whatever.
38:12
And sometimes with the story we tell ourself has a lot of truth, but there's a little bit
38:16
of a lie embedded in it.
38:18
Okay. So identifying what about it, the story I'm telling myself what's true and what really isn't.
38:25
That completely true? What like, we like to self deceive ourselves in a way. We like to,
38:31
set up a story that makes us feel better or superior or we're the ones in the right,
38:35
they're in the wrong or whatever. But identifying really, that's not completely true. I mean,
38:40
there's a little bit of stretch in this area. But identifying that's tricky. So one tool that I've
38:47
help me with that is I type up a dialogue. So, this takes time. So, you got to be willing
38:54
to set aside some quiet time. I open up a Google Doc and I will type up like the dialogue
39:01
of the last conflict we've had around something or a conflict I anticipate we're having. I
39:06
say this, she says this. Then I'm going to say this, and if I say this, I think this
39:11
is how she's going to respond or this is how she does respond. So, I kind of type up this
39:14
dialogue, and that practice of typing up this dialogue helps me at least on paper,
39:21
take a step back and say, I can see here where I'm a little bit, I'm a little, like, for me.
39:27
My tendency is to take the superior stance. I'm more evolved than you. I know what's going on
39:31
and you don't. Like, that doesn't create a marriage where we're equals, right? Because
39:36
I'm condescending. So, I know there's these tendencies in me and I can like, after the
39:41
the dialogues or another one I tend to do is I play the victim really well.
39:45
Yeah. I, we're going to fall on the way like this. I have no choice in this matter. You're right. Yeah.
39:51
And then. So as I go to a dialogue, I can go, wait a minute.
39:54
I'm playing the victim here.
39:56
And the victim pattern for me is always the, I don't have a choice.
40:01
When in reality, I remind myself, I always have a choice. What are my options?
40:07
Even if they're all crappy options, what's the least crappy options of all my options I can still make?
40:14
Because when I look for those things, then it's all on me again.
40:17
I kind of keep the focus on me. This is the step I need to take.
40:22
For me.
40:23
In this in light of these things. I like it. I like it. And I think again, back to the things
40:27
that we talked about on your on your show. Yeah, all of those options may cause discomfort and we
40:33
are not huge fans of discomfort. And rather than feel uncomfortable, it's easier to pull that
40:37
victim card or that it'll never work card. Or why would I even bring it up card? Because then I can
40:42
still stay in that victim mentality and I don't have to be uncomfortable. And now I get to tell
40:45
a story to myself about something that she's unaware of that she the task, something she's
40:51
and she didn't even know she was taking the test.
40:53
So I mean, that's a lot, right?
40:55
I like what you're saying too about, I like how when you lay the narrative out,
40:59
I do not journal, I love giving journaling homework, I'm not saying it as if I think, I never do,
41:04
I wish I journaled and I have a guess
41:07
that I haven't aired his episode yet, but he's been writing every day for a year now
41:11
and he wasn't a journal writer at all.
41:13
And we were just talking about that concept of laying things out, does,
41:16
when you put things out linearly, It almost does, it declutters from your mind.
41:21
And I love what you just put another piece of that puzzle together and then you could identify,
41:25
oh, when I lay it out that way, I try to take that one up position.
41:29
And I think if things are just in our heads and that we got all kinds of stories going,
41:32
I wonder that might be harder to see that that's the pattern, do you think?
41:36
Yes, but I do also admit there's also times when I've typed it out and I still can't see it.
41:42
And that's the next stage, I go and get help.
41:45
Okay. I'm in a great group of other men that I can trust with some of these things, and they're
41:53
willing to look at my dial or whatever it is, help identify things.
41:58
I believe in marriage coaching.
42:00
I have a marriage coach that I have that I go to, and helps me see things when I have
42:07
trouble seeing it myself.
42:10
And because I think we still will always have blind spots. There's only so much we can do.
42:15
Yeah, and I like the group. I wouldn't say I really like a group like that because, you know, if we're in our own echo chamber, that's one thing. And then if we're even wanting someone to be gentle with us, bring gentle awareness. And sometimes I do feel like we need that.
42:28
Hey, you little taste of reality there. And so I think that they are the more real that somebody can be because you can still have you still the option to disagree with them, but you will never have that option if you don't have somebody be willing to confront you with what they notice.
42:41
And I think that plays into we put out a version of ourselves to the world and we say, hey, everybody, this is me validate this guy right here.
42:47
And then if people really don't feel like, OK, that's not the version I see, I'll try.
42:52
And then if somebody is being insincere and trying to validate the version of you that you think you are, then you pick up on that and then you say, OK, you don't even care about me.
42:59
And I feel like that's the position we put our spouses in or our friends and at times then we get to play the victim as well.
43:05
So I love the having a group that you can go to with that.
43:08
Okay, we when I was starting on your journey, and we only have a few more minutes, I didn't even realize that.
43:13
What? Tell us what you do and you offer and how you help people.
43:16
And you've got an amazing podcast. You've got a big following on Instagram.
43:19
What are all the things you do? And how do you help people? The first thing I did after our I guess you call it our marriage renaissance, the rebirth.
43:26
Okay.
43:27
Right. We're like, this is so amazing. I wish more people knew about this.
43:31
I'm an app developer. I'm software developer. Okay.
43:35
So I did not know what you did the end. Okay. Mostly for myself and my wife.
43:39
It's a bedroom game app.
43:40
I'm also really creative and, okay, you know, being really creative in the bedroom sounds great to me.
43:46
We made like a collection of bedroom games. We put on the App Store and it took off
43:52
because I think we hit a underserved market. It's not crass. It's not raunchy.
43:57
Yeah, it's not lame. It's full of really good information and it's fun.
44:01
But in the process of marketing that app, I connected with, like, the author of that
44:07
book that I stayed up really late reading, I connected with her.
44:11
I connected with other authors and other bloggers and Instagrammers and podcasters.
44:17
These people that I admire and learn a lot from and say, hey, I have this app, would
44:21
you like to share it with your audience? And they check it out and say, yeah, we love it too.
44:24
Of course we'll share it.
44:26
So, I kind of developed these relationships with others in this like, conservative Christian,
44:31
sex positive community, which I didn't know existed until...
44:35
I was going to make a joke there, Dan, like, and you, yeah, you found all 20 of them.
44:38
Oh, but I'm joking. I know it's a much bigger... Yeah. Probably 2,000 of them.
44:42
No, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
44:46
Right, exactly. So, one thing led to another. Then a year after, so this is in 2018, my wife and I had this harebrained idea to put
44:53
on a marriage conference.
44:55
We both kind of introverted, right? We have no idea what this is like, but we're like, we have the anti-pornography conference
45:03
in St. George, which is a real downer if you ever go to it.
45:07
You walk away feeling like, scared for your life, you want to cut, you know?
45:12
It's like, it's not an upbeat event that, right? And then we have the family history conference, but we don't have anything for like, marriage
45:20
enrichment.
45:21
So, we're like, let's do it! Let's do it! 150 people came to our first conference.
45:26
Oh my gosh, Dan. When I saw on your website that you have the couples retreat and that sort of thing, and I've been doing this forever in my podcast, and I even thought, oh, that would be very difficult to put one of those together.
45:37
What if no one comes? I went into all those stories.
45:39
And so, I can't imagine what it's like to have 500 people. That's amazing.
45:43
It was way better. And that's the day I got the shot in the arm.
45:48
I think I found my calling in life.
45:50
I love helping couples have a great sex life. sex life. That's that's it. So ever since then, I continue to develop apps. I have about
45:58
five apps on the app store. The main one is Intimately Us, and the second one is Just
46:03
Between Us. Okay. And we've put on marriage retreat. We've switched from the conference
46:08
format to a retreat format. Okay. Do those annually. My next retreat's coming up in three
46:14
weeks. I'm really excited for that. Okay. Well, I will get this out quick then with
46:17
the date of the retreat. It's sold out and it is on the 24th.
46:21
It doesn't matter.
46:22
Okay, all right. But that's exciting, that is.
46:24
They sell out within a few weeks when we announce our retreat.
46:27
So get on our waiting list if you want.
46:29
Okay, okay. Then I really wanted to help other couples kind of like what you do, Tony.
46:35
So I've gone through a lot of the training on how to coach other couples and coach on sexuality.
46:41
So I'm a pretty good student.
46:44
I can hit the books and I can, anyway.
46:48
So I have a handful of clients that I coach and I launched a program called Next Level.
46:52
And it was something that I wish I had. It's a low barrier to entry. It's a low cost, but group coaching program for couples that want to take their intimacy to the next level. And it's myself and another trained marriage coach in there. And we both, we have weekly meetings. We have a private podcast. We kind of like what you have, the marriage matters. Is that what?
47:14
Oh, magnetic marriage. Oh, you're fine.
47:16
Magnetic, yeah. I knew I had to MM. Yeah, yeah. You were close.
47:20
Yeah, yeah. As you subscribe, you can listen in to other couples being coached anonymously.
47:26
Nice. We kind of create this kind of community that's called Next Level, and that's growing
47:30
pretty big. Okay, this is exciting.
47:32
We'll have to have you back on again, too, but I did a podcast recently where it was all about
47:36
therapy versus coaching, and I talked a lot about, I wasn't aware, and I'm kind of joking here,
47:42
but that there was this therapist versus coach vibe
47:45
that I wasn't aware I was supposed to have because I really appreciate coaches.
47:49
And I know that I think that as I often kind of joke about the fact that I think a coach is necessary to say,
47:55
okay, here are the next steps, here's what's worked for me, here's what I feel like will help.
47:59
And then I feel like the therapist is almost right there beside the couple and then if and when those things work
48:05
until they don't or the challenges they have
48:07
with continuing on whatever that the program is they bought,
48:10
the book they bought, a course that they maybe didn't finish,
48:12
here comes the therapist to say, all right, let's figure that out.
48:15
Because I feel like, you know, it's a nice balance of both.
48:17
Because I bought courses and got the dopamine hit and done a couple of the modules
48:20
and then thought, man, okay, I'll do something later.
48:22
And then I thought what's wrong with me and I paid the money and why did I fizzle out?
48:26
And then I had to put my therapist brain on and have some good acceptance.
48:29
And anyway, so I really love what you're doing. And I feel like a perfect balance of coaching
48:33
and therapy is probably a nice mix, a little bit of a chocolate meets peanut butter kind of vibe.
48:38
I like that, chocolate and peanut butter, that's a good idea.
48:42
The way I look at it too is, therapists are licensed and trained for treating that mental illness too.
48:49
And there's, or something that like with dealing with trauma, or those specific trainings that I don't touch.
48:57
But if it's about overcoming differences in sexual desire, I can totally coach you through that.
49:04
I need more creativity in the bedroom. Or help us where we have this dynamic where it's
49:10
the pursuer, distancer dynamic. I can help you with all those common patterns that a
49:15
lot of couples struggle with. I can help you with many of those. And that's, and people
49:20
do come and their marriages are changed for the better as a result of this. Like, they're,
49:25
learning new habits and new tools that help them, you know, like what we talked about
49:30
today is, for example, self-soothing, if that's what they need, or if it's learning how to
49:34
have those difficult conversations that need to happen and how to have, like, those are
49:38
all things that I think couples benefit from from things like this.
49:42
So I love it. I do. And so then if we kind of wrap up where we started there, I honestly,
49:47
part of what I was excited because I really liked your vibe when I was on your show. And I know that
49:51
even as we were talking, I know as the therapist and whatever, 1300 couples later, my default at
49:57
times is to already anticipate the yeah, buts that are happening. But then the people need to first
50:04
try to understand the things they don't understand. And maybe those yeah, buts won't be as strong.
50:08
And that big fear of the unknown that's there. A lot of times I almost feel as a therapist,
50:12
I'm trying to walk us gently to discover the unknown. And I feel like sometimes maybe the services you offer saying,
50:19
hey, here it is and it works and I know it works and it's exciting.
50:22
And then as people, you know, that they didn't know that.
50:24
And so they start moving toward that a little quicker.
50:26
And then just know that you can have a good therapist there.
50:28
If that trauma response does come up or maybe you start doing the,
50:31
OK, everybody else seems to agree. What's wrong with me?
50:33
Or maybe that's then where the work kicks in. So I love I love what you're doing. That's awesome.
50:37
So I'll put links to everything. I love that the next retreat or the,
50:40
So yeah, you've got it sold out. So get on your waiting list, listen to your podcast, and then we should do this again.
50:46
Yeah, let's do it. I guess I can announce we will be having a virtual marriage retreat on June 9th of this,
50:53
year. June 9th is International Lovemaking Day because it's 6-9 on the calendar, get it?
51:00
It's also a Friday. And so we're going to have a two-day virtual lovemaking retreat.
51:05
So you and your spouse, or it's up to you to get your own hotel or kick the kids out
51:09
of the house for the weekend or whatever. And then we have sessions where we're meeting
51:14
with you and giving you very specific ideas to help you explore your own eroticism in
51:19
your own marriage. So you have a very wonderful lovemaking retreat that weekend for the two of you.
51:25
Perfect. All right, Dan, what a joy. Thanks for coming on. We'll talk to you again soon
51:28
and I'll have all the notes that we can put in the show notes and we'll try to get this
51:31
out pretty quick because I think there's a lot of good stuff here. So thanks for coming
51:34
on and thanks for having me on your show. That was a blast.
51:37
Thanks. My pleasure.
51:38
Okay, all right. We'll talk again soon. Thanks so much. Great. Thank you.
51:40
Music.