Latest / The Virtual Couch / They Said All the Right Things (and Nothing Changed): The Anxious-Avoidant Trap w/Mackie Overbay

Transcript

They Said All the Right Things (and Nothing Changed): The Anxious-Avoidant Trap w/Mackie Overbay · The Virtual Couch

• 0:22
  Have you ever had somebody look you right in the eyes, and I mean really look
• 0:25
  at you and say exactly the thing that you needed to hear?
• 0:28
  The tone was right, the facial expression was right, they maybe even reached
• 0:32
  over, touched your hand or your arm, or might have even been so bold as to grab
• 0:35
  your face in a very safe way, and this is the thing they need you to hear.
• 0:39
  And then they say something like, no, you're right, I hear you,
• 0:43
  and I'm going to do better.
• 0:44
  And in that moment, did you think, okay, that felt amazing, that's a good talk,
• 0:49
  we're good, we're on the same page.
• 0:51
  But then, and I think this is the real question, how many times did that exact
• 0:55
  same scene play out before you start to wonder, hold on, why does this keep happening?
• 1:00
  Why do I keep having the same conversation even when it does feel good?
• 1:04
  It's much better than it's been in the past.
• 1:06
  And why does it even keep feeling resolved without anything actually changing?
• 1:11
  Hey everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
• 1:14
  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 1:15
  And today I have a very special episode for you.
• 1:18
  And it is not just because my daughter Mackie is on the podcast,
• 1:22
  but it's because of the content that we go over.
• 1:24
  We're going to get into something that I think will resonate with so many of
• 1:28
  you because we've been using a phrase around the house for a little while now,
• 1:31
  and I mentioned it on the podcast before. We're calling them mouth sounds.
• 1:35
  People make the right mouth sounds, even the right facial expressions.
• 1:38
  So mouth sounds are when somebody says all the right things.
• 1:40
  They use the right words. They have the right tone of voice.
• 1:43
  They look at you and they look right at your face. And in that moment, it feels amazing.
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  You believe them because it's so much better than them shutting down,
• 1:53
  blaming you or getting really angry.
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  Of course, you want to believe them. Why wouldn't you?
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  Because this is what is so fascinating about the mouth sounds.
• 2:00
  If you said those words, you really believe you would mean them.
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  If you told somebody, you know what? This makes so much sense.
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  I get it now. I'm going to do better.
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  You are thinking to yourself, oh, I would. I would actually go try and do better.
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  I would listen to some podcasts. I'd read a book. go to therapy,
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  we would start to create an amazing life now that I have said this thing.
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  So when somebody says that to you, you're projecting a little bit of your own
• 2:24
  character, your own integrity onto them.
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  You're assuming that they operate the way that you operate. And that is not
• 2:30
  a bad thing, it's just a thing.
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  That is one of the sneakiest forms of projection there is. Now notice I didn't
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  say a negative or a bad thing, but it's pretty tricky.
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  And here's what blew my mind in this episode, and Mackie and I really get into
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  this, that it works both ways.
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  The person making the mouth sounds, they might be projecting too.
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  Because in their world, maybe everybody says they're really going to try harder.
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  Even whether they think it consciously or subconsciously, then things get in the way.
• 2:58
  People don't necessarily follow through on those things that they say.
• 3:01
  So what if they're not being intentionally deceptive?
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  In their experience, this is just what people say. You say the thing,
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  you maybe make the face, the tension drops, everybody moves on.
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  That's how it works. You meant to follow up on it, but you're not even being
• 3:14
  honest with yourself about what if I don't even really know what I need to do next?
• 3:17
  Because I feel good. I just said the right words. You looked happy with what I said.
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  So what if you have two people that are projecting completely different realities
• 3:23
  onto the same conversation and both of them walk away thinking they understood
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  what just happened? Great talk, both of you.
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  But what if they didn't understand what actually just happened and they weren't
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  even close? This is actually where the anxious avoidant attachment dynamic comes in.
• 3:37
  And Mackie and I walk through what I think is one of the most important frameworks
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  that I've discovered over the last year or so and that I've been working with in my practice.
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  I did a two-part podcast episode about the fictional couple Jack and Jill a
• 3:49
  few months ago, and we go through that in detail again today of how the anxiously attached person,
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  Jill, in the scenario, and Jack, the avoidantly attached, are literally wired
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  by their childhoods to find each other and to find each other familiar and attractive
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  and not in some abstract theoretical way.
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  I'm talking about your nervous system recognizes something familiar and tells
• 4:10
  you, oh, this one, this is the one, this feels like home.
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  And then I'm going to create some narratives, make up some stories about why it's different though.
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  Because even if you had an amazing childhood experience, there are still these
• 4:22
  wounds that are left there of not feeling heard or understood or not having
• 4:26
  your feelings or your emotions validated.
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  So even when your home wasn't particularly emotionally safe,
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  again, even if you weren't aware of what that even looked like or what that
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  felt like, you're going to find something familiar in your partner.
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  And then with Mackie, let's just say that she's literally checking boxes in
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  real time as I'm reading through the anxious attachment profile.
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  You get to watch go check, check, check.
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  And then when we get to the avoidant side, then she's saying,
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  oh, I don't resonate with that at all.
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  But oh my gosh, I have dated that person, which is kind of the whole point.
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  Because in a perfect world, you're both going to heal through the relationship,
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  heal yourself individually through the relationship.
• 5:01
  What I love about this conversation today is that Mackie also brought a list.
• 5:04
  She came prepared with everything that she's learned from a recent breakup,
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  being single again in her twenties, what she wishes she'd known,
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  what she's taken forward.
• 5:11
  And then things like feel it, even when your instinct is to run from And we
• 5:14
  even talk about what that means, not just feel your feelings,
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  because I think a lot of times people are left to think, I don't want to feel them.
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  How long do I have to feel them? What do I even do when I am feeling them?
• 5:25
  She talks about how no feeling is ever final. There's no correct timeline for healing.
• 5:28
  And one that I think is really going to resonate, sometimes being the one who
• 5:32
  leaves means you are admitting or acknowledging that you're handing the other
• 5:36
  person the gift of getting to play the victim and learning how to accept that
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  and to be somewhat okay with that can be a real challenge,
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  especially when you're the one that feels like you've been trying so hard.
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  So whether you're in a relationship right now where you keep having the same
• 5:51
  conversations and it seems that nothing is changing, or you just got out of
• 5:55
  one and you're trying to make sense of what will feel a little bit like nonsense
• 5:59
  or trying to figure out what happened.
• 6:01
  Or maybe you're a parent watching your kids go through it.
• 6:04
  And before we jump in, I want to tell you about something that I've been pouring
• 6:06
  myself into that will go along with a lot of what we talk about today.
• 6:10
  And I don't talk about it within the episode itself.
• 6:12
  Go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic and get on the wait list for the announcement
• 6:15
  of the re-release of my magnetic marriage course.
• 6:17
  Because a lot of what Mackie and I talk about today, why you found your partner
• 6:20
  in the first place, why it essentially had to happen the way that it did.
• 6:24
  I cover all of that in the course. And here's what I would love for you to take away from today.
• 6:29
  Nobody comes off of the factory floor with the tools they need to communicate
• 6:34
  effectively, to be emotionally mature, to show up with consistency,
• 6:37
  to create a magnetic marriage, because you truly don't know what you don't know.
• 6:41
  And I don't say that is just a catchphrase.
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  I say it because it's the reality of every single couple that I've worked with,
• 6:46
  including my own marriage of over 36 years, the 1,500 plus couples that I've
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  worked with in 20 years of being a couples therapist, that you actually do have
• 6:53
  to go through challenges in a relationship.
• 6:55
  Because we all do, it makes sense that you'll need to go through them before
• 6:58
  you can even realize you need different tools. And then, then actually comes the hard part.
• 7:03
  You have to have the courage to pursue help. You have to be open and vulnerable
• 7:07
  to suggest that you want something to change in your relationship.
• 7:10
  And then you have to go on this hero's journey of finding help that actually works.
• 7:14
  And there's a lot of help out there that I don't necessarily think does help.
• 7:18
  There's even and some that can be to your detriment.
• 7:21
  Then you're going to have to pay for it. You're actually going to have to watch
• 7:23
  the things that you purchase. You're going to have to listen to things,
• 7:26
  not just buy it to feel good.
• 7:27
  Because a lot of times we buy things to feel good about the purchase and you'll
• 7:31
  have to practice it, put whatever it is that you're learning into practice.
• 7:34
  And that will also come with admitting other things that you don't know that
• 7:37
  you don't know. And then this is the one that I think so many people are sitting with right now.
• 7:41
  What if you're the only one willing to put in effort for change?
• 7:45
  Or what if you're the one who is putting in the lion's share of the effort for
• 7:48
  change? and I cover all of that in this course.
• 7:51
  I also cover my four pillars of a connected conversation. I cover the losing
• 7:54
  strategies in relationships that feel so natural you don't even realize that you're running them.
• 7:59
  A lot of these things are things that we did bring into the relationship from
• 8:02
  our childhood, our childhood adaptations that kept us alive. Thanks inner child.
• 8:07
  Thanks champ. But now we need to let the big kids take over and start to heal
• 8:12
  and start to learn to be more mature.
• 8:14
  And I talk about what I call the paradoxical nature of help in general,
• 8:17
  because if what felt natural actually worked all the time, then I would imagine
• 8:23
  we'd all be perfectly happy and our relationships would be amazing all the time, right?
• 8:26
  But it turns out that not talking about difficult things, kicking the can down
• 8:30
  the road, retreating into our bunkers, those things don't work.
• 8:34
  Blaming your partner doesn't work.
• 8:36
  These things feel like they should help because we do them often.
• 8:40
  We saw them modeled from our own parents and we even saw them done to us from our.
• 8:45
  Those are the very things that are keeping you stuck. So go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.
• 8:50
  You can do it right now. Get on the wait list because this is not just another
• 8:54
  course that you buy based on the little spark of hope that you feel when you
• 8:57
  hear somebody like me saying these mouth sounds or when you go read a sales
• 9:00
  page and feel really good.
• 9:02
  This is a course that will change you in a way that you can't unchange.
• 9:04
  And I know that is a bold thing to say, but it really is the cliche.
• 9:08
  Once you see it, you can't unsee it. You won't be able to put that relationship
• 9:12
  genie back in the bottle. and I have watched couples heal and grow time and time again.
• 9:18
  And I've also watched people have the tools right in front of them.
• 9:22
  And it's so uncomfortable that they just decide they'll do it later.
• 9:26
  I've watched all that happen and I'll address that in this course.
• 9:29
  So go to TonyOverbay.com slash magnetic.
• 9:32
  Follow me on social media. I'm going to talk a lot more about that.
• 9:34
  I'm going to have more clips that are leading up to the course.
• 9:37
  Follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch, on TikTok at virtualcouch.
• 9:41
  Find my substack, substack.thevirtualcouch.com.
• 9:45
  I want all your questions, your comments, your feedback.
• 9:47
  Keep sending in your relationship questions. Give me all the details you want.
• 9:51
  And some of that might make it into a future podcast as well.
• 9:55
  Okay. My thanks to Mackie for joining me. Let's get right to it. Let me go, Mel.
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  Otherwise, you'll hear it and then I'll get mad at myself later on account of
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  mouth sounds. I know. Which you don't like, misophonia?
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  Yeah, I'm diseased. I just saw some article about that and I didn't read it enough.
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  I don't remember if it said misophonia is a sign of genius or the opposite of that. Okay.
• 10:16
  But it was something like that. But it really was something about misophonia
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  and if you have a problem with chewing and that sort of thing.
• 10:21
  I'll have to go look it up before I try to speak. Yeah, watch it before you tell me I have problems.
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  Hey, everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of The Virtual Couch.
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  I'm your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and
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  this is my daughter Mackie.
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  Hi Mackie. Hi, Tony. Also, you are host of The Mind, The Mirror,
• 10:37
  and Me, which needs to make it come back. Years ago.
• 10:40
  I know. Did you enjoy it though while you did it? Yeah, it was fun.
• 10:42
  We have a few. We've got some... Yeah, there's 20 something of them. Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:46
  And I can even run this on there. You can throw this on there.
• 10:47
  Sure. Yeah. So if you're coming from there, welcome back to The Mind,
• 10:51
  The Mirror, and Me. That's right.
• 10:52
  I don't remember anything I would say to start it, so we'll just fly past that.
• 10:56
  Yeah. I think we did, but my life looks very different than when we used it.
• 10:59
  It really does. I was curious.
• 11:01
  I've been, I don't want to say begging you to come on, but I think that's kind of fair.
• 11:04
  Whenever I leave the house, I'm like, hey, if you're not doing anything,
• 11:06
  if you want to come over. You could probably record.
• 11:08
  And you know, today when I walked by to leave for my office.
• 11:10
  Were you going to say it? Yeah, I was going to.
• 11:11
  But then I just thought, you know what? I just will go to my office and get
• 11:13
  some things done. It's a weekend. And I would come in here and I was going to write and maybe record.
• 11:17
  And then you texted me. And I volunteered myself.
• 11:19
  That's a lesson in itself right there. It is. Can't push people or something. Honestly.
• 11:23
  People's permission and you let them do their thing. Yeah. Yeah,
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  things that I've just been reading
• 11:27
  about not being so pursue-y and just allowing things to unfold more.
• 11:31
  Interesting. It's a good thing. There's something there. There is.
• 11:34
  But today, I thought it would be fun to talk about fun.
• 11:39
  To put me on the spot. A little bit, a little bit. So let's just say hypothetically
• 11:43
  that you went through a breakup a few months ago.
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  Maybe not hypothetically that happened. Maybe it really did happen.
• 11:49
  It really did. And that was my life. Yeah. A couple months ago.
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  And you had been in a long-term relationship. It had been well over a year.
• 11:56
  Really two. And this is not to discourage that person at all,
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  but the data that we got from it was pretty fantastic.
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  Fantastic, amazing, interesting. I know. I don't know if I was going to say something.
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  I don't know what I was going to say. Oh, fascinating. Very fascinating. Yeah.
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  And we'll just let this unfold is maybe a good way to put it.
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  And what was really interesting, we've been
• 12:19
  using the phrase around the house and I said it to my podcast listeners
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  when somebody uses or says the right mouth sounds
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  and they really say the right things that
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  fit in that moment when you're expressing what you really need
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  or what you're frustrated with and that person says the right
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  things and they might even say it with the right tone of voice the right
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  facial expressions and so why would you not
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  think okay cool good talk and believe
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  you and trust that you mean what you say and then things
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  don't necessarily change yeah and so
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  then when you get frustrated later and it could be a week a
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  month two months later something happened happening again
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  then you get frustrated about it and then the
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  person oh my gosh you're right doubles down
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  on the mouth sounds yeah so i don't know where do you go with that
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  talk about that i i have so many thoughts on
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  that and i think the more i've talked about this with my friends and people
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  it's very normal people are really good at saying the mouth sounds they really
• 13:13
  are and then not following through the actions but i think specifically it's
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  hard i think that'd be hard for anyone in any situation but i think one thing
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  i realized is I've always been a words of affirmation person.
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  I resonate really deeply with words.
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  Therefore, I believe words when I hear them.
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  And if I use my words, I typically mean what I'm saying. And I know that I'll
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  follow through with that.
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  When somebody tells me something, I typically believe it and I, or I want to believe it.
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  Or I just, I don't know, that's how I like receive love. So I believe it. I trust it.
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  And so I fell into a little cycle there of believing, even though the actions were never.
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  And i like what you just said because i didn't even think about the concept
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  of projection right now but i do the similar thing
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  you were projecting onto somebody that if i'm going to say
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  this thing i really mean it so then if they're going to say the thing
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  then i'm assuming they must mean it too yeah exactly and
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  what's funny is you can even take that in the way of the
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  person who is saying it in the moment that i
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  don't know if they're subconsciously or consciously thinking if
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  their version of projection would be no everybody says
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  that they're going to try harder and they kind of don't because that's
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  what that person is doing absolutely so they're projecting your
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  project parties are projecting yeah isn't that wild yeah
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  and I think that that's a it's an interesting concept just
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  in relationships in general that I feel like I've noticed to like even
• 14:36
  stepping back into dating I think it's hard
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  going into relationships because you do just assume that people work the way
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  that you work and it's like even a really great person isn't gonna work the
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  exact way that you work and that's something to navigate in any relationship
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  and that's just always interesting and you think that people will be affected
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  by things the way you will you know that's just the natural way to think of it and so it's,
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  it's interesting to meet new people and learn things that way and then try to
• 15:03
  learn how to show up for somebody and vice versa maybe this could be kind of
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  a fun muse to work through is i'm going to pull up this why the anxious and
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  the avoidant find each other.
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  And have we talked about this or really gone into the origin story?
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  I don't know. Because I'm blown away by this. We are two anxious pals.
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  Yeah, we are. We definitely are.
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  And so I tell the story of Jack and Jill. So I'd love to see where you fit into
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  this. Even though as your dad, this might be a little awkward.
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  Because it has to do with our parents for the most part.
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  Right? And as your parent. You are my parent. I am.
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  So the anxious, which is Jill in this scenario. And it's really funny.
• 15:40
  On one of the men's groups that I do a lot of work with.
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  When i was sharing this because i did a two-part episode on this
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  anxious and avoidant pattern jack and jill and more guys
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  identified as the avoidant and more
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  women identified as the anxious but this
• 15:53
  is wild jill's story learning to chase connection in this scenario i talked
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  about her childhood was marked by unpredictability man now it's funny because
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  now i don't want to have this is just a hypothetical story because in the jill
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  story it's the mom was the one that was unpredictable and And then to the avoidant,
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  the Jack story, his dad was kind of the real jerk. But again,
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  this is just something to interact with.
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  In this one, her mother, struggling with untreated anxiety and depression,
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  oscillated between emotional absence and emotional flooding.
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  So when Jill was upset, sometimes her mom didn't notice.
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  Sometimes she noticed, but she didn't respond. And sometimes,
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  most confusingly, Jill's emotions would trigger her mom's collapse,
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  and suddenly Jill would find herself managing her mom's feelings.
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  If Jill came up with big feelings or big emotions, sometimes to her mom,
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  that would be like, oh man, that's overwhelming.
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  So hey just don't worry about it like you need
• 16:43
  to calm down and that's an origin story of
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  so many of the anxiously attached some of this pattern of inconsistency i had
• 16:50
  on my notes here when jill didn't make a soccer team her mom didn't really notice
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  when she got to be on a math test at 10 then her mom was like man i never i
• 16:58
  didn't teach you well enough when her first boyfriend broke up with her 15 her
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  mom said it's not even a big deal you'll get over it.
• 17:04
  And then her dad was physically present, but emotionally absent,
• 17:07
  a kind man who worked long hours and seemed relieved to retreat into his workshop
• 17:11
  on weekends away from his wife's unpredictability. He didn't intervene.
• 17:14
  He didn't model a different way. But here's the stuff that I think when I would
• 17:16
  read this part and every, and I'm talking right now, every relationship is anxious
• 17:21
  and avoidant as far as I can tell.
• 17:23
  And you'll see why, because it's the way we heal from them.
• 17:26
  But so then what Jill's nervous system learned that connection is unstable and
• 17:29
  might vanish without warning. And again, as an anxious, I identify with you.
• 17:34
  Right? I mean, we'll even set the... I think all people end up,
• 17:38
  for the most part, all, is pretty much all that I can tell, land in this anxious or avoidant camp.
• 17:44
  When somebody withdraws, it means I did something wrong. Holy cow, do I feel that one.
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  I need to pursue harder, be more, do more to keep people engaged.
• 17:52
  My feelings are either too much or not enough, and I can't tell which.
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  I'm responsible for other people's emotional states. And if I can be attentive
• 18:00
  enough, loving enough, perfect enough, then people will stay.
• 18:03
  Isn't that wild? Then by the time Jill left for college, her nervous system
• 18:06
  was wired for vigilance. She scanned faces looking for signs of withdrawal.
• 18:10
  She texted friends immediately, worried if they didn't respond.
• 18:12
  Okay, you're out on that one then. You don't text back.
• 18:15
  I don't text back, but then if people don't text me back, I panic. Okay, okay.
• 18:18
  She volunteered for everything, helped everybody, and made herself indispensable
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  because if she were needed, then people wouldn't leave.
• 18:24
  Whoa! Deep. Her core belief, connection is uncertain and I have to work to secure it.
• 18:28
  And I felt like that's just the story of my life. That's the basis of anxious
• 18:31
  attachment. Yep. Yep. Yep.
• 18:33
  So now, enter Jack. He had this abusive... I don't know much about Jack.
• 18:36
  I know the avoidant is fascinating. I don't. And we'll talk about this too.
• 18:39
  I so do not resonate with this. Jack had this abusive, critical father and an
• 18:42
  absent, emotionally withdrawn mom.
• 18:44
  He learned from his childhood that when things got hard, people either attack
• 18:46
  or disappear. sometimes both.
• 18:48
  When he was cut from a team, his dad said, well, you should have practiced more.
• 18:51
  When Jack was nervous before a debate competition at 14, his dad said,
• 18:55
  either you're prepared or not. You shouldn't be worrying about it.
• 18:57
  And when he struggled after he
• 18:59
  had a family pet pass away, his dad told him, man up. It was just a dog.
• 19:03
  And mom didn't intervene. She was kind in small, quiet ways,
• 19:07
  packed his favorite lunch, left him notes, but she never stood up to his dad.
• 19:11
  So what his nervous system learned, and again, after I've read the anxious to
• 19:15
  the anxious person and then a couple setting, they're like, wow, that really hits.
• 19:19
  And then I'm not avoidant. So I would read this one going like,
• 19:22
  and is this at all? And then that person's crying on the couch too.
• 19:27
  Showing vulnerability invites attack or rejection. Other people's emotions are
• 19:30
  dangerous and overwhelming.
• 19:32
  When conflict arises, disappearing is the safe option. That one we will come back to.
• 19:37
  If I stay quiet and shut down, things will blow over. Being needed feels like being trapped.
• 19:41
  Feelings are weakness and weakness gets punished. And connection means somebody
• 19:44
  will either criticize me or fall apart on me.
• 19:46
  I know, right? So when we are pursuing someone saying, no, I just want you to see me or understand me.
• 19:53
  Their walls are shooting up and they are out of it. Yeah. And that's where,
• 19:56
  when I would talk to the avoidant, they would say, oh, absolutely. I feel criticized.
• 19:59
  And even if I say, I'm saying that nice face, the gentle mouth sounds,
• 20:04
  they're like, right, but you're mad at me.
• 20:08
  Interesting. So interesting. So then he became the kid who was fine with everything,
• 20:11
  didn't ask for help, didn't share when things were hard, learned to solve problems
• 20:14
  alone in his room with the door closed.
• 20:16
  He realized that his father's criticism hurt less if he didn't react to it.
• 20:19
  He learned the safest place was inside his own head where nobody could see him.
• 20:22
  So by the time he left for college, his nervous system was wired for self-protection through withdrawal.
• 20:27
  Emotions, his own or others, were like threats. Closeness felt like suffocation
• 20:31
  and independence was survival.
• 20:32
  So his core belief connection was dangerous and I have to protect myself through distance.
• 20:36
  So there's your origin story. I mean, it makes sense, which is like when you
• 20:41
  lay it out that I understand the avoidant.
• 20:43
  I don't resonate with it, but I can see like how that would lead to that.
• 20:48
  I've definitely met people that do those things and act that way.
• 20:51
  Yeah, so when they withdraw or they say the right mouth sounds,
• 20:54
  they're kind of saying, okay, is that enough? And then, are we okay?
• 20:58
  And then hoping to just move past yeah yeah okay we're fine but does
• 21:01
  it make you then wonder well then why on earth did we find each other
• 21:04
  absolutely because then how is it not a constant this
• 21:07
  is this battle this is so wild so
• 21:11
  in this scenario they meet at this professional conference they're both in their
• 21:13
  20s the initial attraction felt like finally something different but what jill
• 21:18
  saw in jack after a lifetime of her mom's emotional chaos he felt like calm
• 21:22
  water he was quiet reserved he didn't dominate the conversation or perform for
• 21:25
  attention he seemed solid and grounded Her nervous system says,
• 21:30
  finally, somebody who won't fall apart, somebody stable, I won't have to take care of.
• 21:33
  So she sees the avoidant basically as grounded.
• 21:37
  And that one makes sense. What
• 21:39
  he sees in her, Jill was attentive and responsive. She replied quickly.
• 21:43
  She asked thoughtful questions and made plans. She made eye contact.
• 21:46
  She leaned in. She remembered details.
• 21:48
  So for him, who spent his entire life feeling either criticized or invisible,
• 21:51
  all of a sudden, this person sees him.
• 21:53
  So he says, man, somebody thinks I'm interesting and somebody wants to know
• 21:56
  about me. It makes so much sense, it's kind of crazy, but what neither of them
• 22:00
  realized, they were both each attracted to the familiar dynamic.
• 22:05
  That's a cool, I didn't even know that was a ringtone thing.
• 22:08
  That's my alarm. Okay, it's time to wake up. Yep.
• 22:11
  But so what they need to realize they were attracted to the familiar dynamic disguises as opposite.
• 22:16
  So Jill's anxious attachment made her hypervigilant to connection,
• 22:19
  which looked like she was attentive.
• 22:21
  And then Jack's avoidant attachment made him emotionally reserved,
• 22:24
  which initially looked like stability and independence.
• 22:27
  So then my mind was blown because then I started talking about it's just the familiar.
• 22:32
  Yeah. So your nervous system finds the familiar. And then you would just click initially.
• 22:37
  Yeah. And it would seem good. Totally. And that's what's really interesting
• 22:40
  is so now they get together and boy, this actually then fast forwards into maybe
• 22:45
  some of the stuff you've experienced dating so far, where now that person does
• 22:49
  seem like, man, they've got their crap together.
• 22:51
  Wow, I'm having a moment here too. Yeah, I did too when you were reading the
• 22:54
  avoidant one. I was like, oh.
• 22:55
  And so, oh my gosh, yeah. But then you come up with. Disappearing,
• 22:59
  the emotions being too much. Oh, yeah.
• 23:00
  Oh, I didn't think about that. So then you go through, you went,
• 23:04
  you had this relationship that was starting off pretty darn good.
• 23:06
  But then there was an event that occurred that nobody could have seen coming.
• 23:11
  You had something really big happen at work with somebody.
• 23:14
  Somebody went through a tragedy and then you go to this person and you say,
• 23:18
  man, I need somebody to talk to.
• 23:23
  And then he, oh boy. Yeah. Go back to like, he felt like dangerous and overwhelming.
• 23:30
  Yep. When conflict arises, disappearing, if he
• 23:33
  stays quiet or shuts down things will blow over being needed felt
• 23:35
  like being trapped absolutely this is crazy and then dipped and
• 23:38
  dipped and then wanted you to think you were crazy
• 23:41
  for having emotions and feelings and meanwhile i i
• 23:45
  felt so seen because you were saying the right the right things
• 23:48
  the things that i so love were you were going through
• 23:51
  life for the very first time as you and that thing happened and you were emoting
• 23:55
  yep what's wrong with that i don't think there's anything wrong with feeling
• 24:00
  feelings so no to me nothing but again I'm an anxious attachment big feelings
• 24:05
  yeah all right what else is coming up for you here hearing that stuff well now I'm just.
• 24:12
  I have more questions which we talked about this you and
• 24:15
  i asked you questions about this not that long ago but talking
• 24:18
  about how you can learn to balance your attachment
• 24:22
  style but you typically won't swing to the other
• 24:24
  side yeah which makes sense based off of knowing the backing of
• 24:27
  it like that you'd have to change a lot of things to swing to
• 24:30
  the other side but then i
• 24:33
  guess my question is once you get past that initial things seem
• 24:36
  like they're clicking but then the reality sets in of the way that
• 24:39
  the other person works how do people even then go
• 24:41
  about that yeah and if you're saying most relationships do tend
• 24:44
  to be anxious and avoidant and currently i'm going to reserve a
• 24:47
  tiny bit of i know that there are things i don't know
• 24:50
  that i don't know yet because where i'm at is it does seem a challenge because
• 24:55
  the anxious which we are you can learn to that's why i've been so fascinated
• 24:59
  by differentiation because that's about maintaining connection with somebody
• 25:03
  you care about while learning who you are or finding yourself or being autonomous in the relationship.
• 25:09
  Because that first point of balance of differentiation is learning to know who
• 25:14
  I am without needing the other person to validate it or tell me this is who I am.
• 25:19
  Now, I would love for that person to validate me, but ultimately I need to know
• 25:23
  that, oh, I am... You don't need that to be valued or to feel seen.
• 25:28
  What I think is a struggle is, as an anxious, I can learn to not continue to
• 25:33
  need that person to tell me I'm okay. I can learn to soothe myself.
• 25:37
  I can learn to stay more grounded and not get really angry when they don't show
• 25:40
  up. These are the first three points of balance differentiation.
• 25:43
  And the fourth one is, I'm going to realize growth is going to come from the discomfort.
• 25:47
  And if I'm being presented with something that there's truth in,
• 25:52
  then actually I'll take ownership of it.
• 25:54
  And I'll even, and here was the key, and I'll even do something about it to change.
• 25:58
  Because what the avoidant tends to do is go back to like your breakup,
• 26:02
  where that person, when you finally would bring it to them, and they would go,
• 26:05
  okay, no, you're right. I need to do better.
• 26:08
  That's where i started looking at from differentiation oh that
• 26:11
  is the right mouth sound but then they feel better
• 26:14
  and you feel better and then they don't do anything
• 26:17
  exactly so in differentiation it's like not only taking ownership
• 26:20
  of your own stuff but then making effort for change and so what i'm noticing
• 26:24
  is that as an anxious i can work on myself and then but i'm still wanting connection
• 26:32
  so bad and my understanding and i have read two whole books on the avoidance
• 26:37
  So I'm basically an expert.
• 26:38
  Okay. No, but it's funny because I do so much couples work that when you identify
• 26:43
  this, the avoidant often just, it seems to, they feel relief when the anxious
• 26:47
  is no longer just being so clingy.
• 26:50
  Interesting. But I don't know that they will ever think of the relationship
• 26:54
  as much as the anxious does.
• 26:56
  And it doesn't mean they don't care. And it doesn't mean they don't love the person.
• 26:59
  Which is, that's so foreign. I can't imagine not thinking about it. Same girl.
• 27:04
  That's bizarre to me. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's the challenge.
• 27:08
  It's like the anxious can grow more calm and confident and differentiated and
• 27:12
  grounded and not need validation, but they still want that connection.
• 27:16
  And the avoidant may feel, and I'm going to own the fact that this is probably
• 27:20
  not the reality of all avoidant attached people.
• 27:24
  It seems that often what will come up in sessions is the anxious is the one
• 27:29
  that has been trying to figure out things. They've been reading the books and
• 27:32
  listening to the podcast.
• 27:33
  And then they try to present something new to the avoidant. And I go back up
• 27:36
  to this part where and then the avoidant takes that as criticism. Right.
• 27:39
  And has to run away from that. Yeah. And so then they know the right things
• 27:43
  to say to then kind of attack or put the anxious on their heels a bit.
• 27:48
  And then the anxious gets flustered and upset. and then my
• 27:51
  joke which I got to go to jokes is then the anxious now the
• 27:54
  avoidant just has to say I just kind of think you think
• 27:57
  you're right and I'm wrong and then the anxious like oh man I'm gonna go on
• 28:01
  a hero's journey for the next year and figure out am I doing that and I'll come
• 28:05
  back and say I have figured it out and then the avoidant just has to go no I
• 28:10
  think you're still pretty arrogant and then the anxious like okay I'll be back.
• 28:16
  But then here comes the projection of the, I think the anxious is often thinking,
• 28:20
  well, I'm sure the avoidant, they're doing it too.
• 28:22
  They're over there on their hero's journey. Because you only know your way of
• 28:25
  going about it. And it's easy to assume that everyone else is going to do the same thing. Yeah.
• 28:30
  But often what happens, and I'm just saying, I'm 100% owning the pattern recognition
• 28:34
  of this as a couples therapist.
• 28:35
  That then the avoidant will often say, yeah, but they were telling me I'm not
• 28:39
  even doing my work. And I'm doing work.
• 28:41
  And then the anxious kind of looks hesitant.
• 28:44
  Then I'll say, oh, okay. Well, tell them. like tell them what you're doing and
• 28:47
  then sometimes it's i'm doing my work i'm thinking about this stuff a lot you
• 28:52
  know and then who's to say that what they're doing is wrong right it's the way
• 28:56
  they're doing it right then even when you can say well what would it look like if you,
• 29:01
  wanted to read the same book together or listen to podcasts together or and
• 29:06
  then you'll find that sometimes the avoidant will even go you know what i'm
• 29:10
  on it that sounds i can do that and i'm sitting.
• 29:14
  They're going okay cool and then the anxious like okay that was
• 29:17
  great and then everybody leaves great session come back
• 29:19
  in a week or two i'm like all right how's the whole book thing going and then
• 29:22
  it's like the cover yeah so
• 29:25
  i think that's that's a challenge so i don't know if that's kind of where you're
• 29:27
  going with your question it's
• 29:28
  just kind of a constant trying to balance it well the
• 29:32
  path forward requires both people to recognize the pattern take responsibility
• 29:35
  for their own healing and slowly rewire their nervous systems for secure connection
• 29:38
  it's possible but it requires seeing what's actually happening beneath the surface
• 29:41
  of this dance that they do work on both sides it's fascinating to look at what
• 29:46
  your last brief relationship looked like because it looked amazing and then
• 29:51
  it just checks out that as you started bringing things up that weren't,
• 29:56
  in the opening script? Yeah. Like the first few pages of the script of the movie? Yeah.
• 30:01
  Going a little bit real. Yeah. And then I was like, okay.
• 30:04
  So are there anything that you want to talk about even from your previous relationship
• 30:08
  where when you look back then it's like, wait, these things weren't that crazy
• 30:12
  to want in the relationship?
• 30:14
  Oh, almost every single piece of it.
• 30:17
  And I spent that whole relationship basically just waiting for the bare minimum
• 30:22
  to happen and then hearing the right mouth noises and then never.
• 30:28
  Seeing that so it's like literally i mean i'm talking everything like waiting
• 30:32
  for trust to be there waiting to feel seen
• 30:35
  feel valued feel considered but the consideration thing
• 30:38
  is the biggest thing that's one thing i've learned that people
• 30:41
  will say that consideration is like the highest form of love tell me
• 30:44
  what that looks like too because you're right this gets brought up a lot and then sometimes
• 30:47
  i think it's hard for people to define what it would even mean to be considered
• 30:50
  and i think it would depend person to person what they need but i'm thinking
• 30:53
  of like me in that relationship there were so many things where it was just
• 30:56
  like you made that decision and you did not think about me or how it would affect
• 31:00
  me or what I would think of it. And even if it was your decision.
• 31:04
  We're in a relationship.
• 31:04
  So it does then affect me, but you didn't think about anything like that.
• 31:08
  Or you made these plans and didn't consider if I, you know, you'd be involved or you'd wait.
• 31:13
  And I'm thinking even just dumb things of say there's an event coming up and
• 31:18
  this person would not let me know about it until the day of and would have known
• 31:23
  about it for weeks, but then would get mad at me if I couldn't go.
• 31:25
  And it's like but you didn't consider me and
• 31:28
  that i would need to know and that i need to plan that you didn't tell me well it's
• 31:31
  staying on that one too because then that person because i've had so many of those
• 31:34
  kind of conversations and even if i'm using my four pillars i would
• 31:37
  let's say that you guys were doing that in a couple study and then you would
• 31:40
  bring it up and then i would say okay we're gonna go to him we're gonna assume
• 31:44
  good intentions he didn't think i'm gonna wait till the last minute so we're
• 31:47
  gonna assume he wasn't trying to hurt you we're gonna he's gonna mention that
• 31:50
  he forgot or whatever and then my pillar two you can't tell him that's ridiculous
• 31:54
  or I don't even believe him,
• 31:55
  but I would make a pause and say, even if you do think it's ridiculous and you don't believe him.
• 31:59
  And then pillar three, then let's go into questions before comments.
• 32:02
  So questions like saying, well, when did you know?
• 32:05
  And did you think about it? And then that will either expose the immaturity
• 32:08
  of the person either just saying.
• 32:10
  Honestly i didn't or that's the time where i
• 32:13
  think the avoidant could theoretically grow because i want
• 32:16
  them to have the courage to say honestly i don't
• 32:19
  or i think about it in the moment and i don't think about it again yeah
• 32:22
  even though that would hurt you yeah would that be better
• 32:25
  to know absolutely okay instead of the well
• 32:27
  i don't know i didn't think i don't know i just i don't know like just that
• 32:30
  and it's like well what do i do with that then all of a sudden pillar four which
• 32:33
  is the one that i'm realizing more and more is difficult for the avoidant is that
• 32:36
  person goes into a victim mode and goes man you're
• 32:39
  right I just suck yeah would you ever hear that every
• 32:43
  time there was anything because then what would you
• 32:45
  and I ended up apologizing and comforting when
• 32:49
  I was the one bringing something up that like I needed
• 32:52
  comfort or I needed you know yeah to feel
• 32:55
  seen and then it always ended with me I'm so
• 32:58
  sorry I didn't mean that and whatever and then he's gonna
• 33:00
  go I mean I'm saying and the next day I'd be like what just right
• 33:03
  and in that moment guys like it's okay yeah it's okay you're
• 33:06
  like okay well and then i guess i feel bad but i
• 33:09
  guess we're good and then yeah that so that's the dance oh
• 33:12
  yeah and that was this cycle over and over and over so
• 33:15
  it takes a lot for the anxious to then stay grounded and generally curious but
• 33:20
  then it also takes courage for the avoidant to then own up to the fact of man
• 33:25
  yeah this is a pattern of mine yeah and i don't think about it again i like
• 33:29
  that i don't consider you yeah because they they're They're so scared that if
• 33:33
  they say that, then you'll be like, well, I'm done then.
• 33:36
  Because if you if they would acknowledge you're right i am not
• 33:38
  considering you and it isn't just the mouth sound said because
• 33:42
  then i don't know if it always has to be the therapist but then says okay well
• 33:45
  what do you need to do in order to show her that you
• 33:48
  do consider her yeah and usually the number one answer is i don't
• 33:50
  know yeah i was like that doesn't cut it anymore it doesn't
• 33:53
  do anything that doesn't fix it and i think it's interesting too that just the
• 33:56
  consideration thing though there's so many little ways to make
• 33:59
  someone feel considered i just feel like just remembering
• 34:02
  little things about someone is such a
• 34:05
  just like oh like you cared enough to remember that and it's like the amount
• 34:08
  of times i had to repeat myself or had to say
• 34:11
  things again how at this point how do you not know that thing and it just was
• 34:15
  again it's like i would remember that about you like why would you know what
• 34:18
  i mean like just those little things but to just show you care and you just
• 34:23
  think about someone even a little bit and that just lacked the whole relationship
• 34:27
  talk about and I don't know if we can stay in generalities here,
• 34:30
  but let's say that this person reaches out to somebody that doesn't really have
• 34:35
  a deserved place in the relationship.
• 34:38
  They've got connection with somebody outside of the relationship that it's like,
• 34:40
  it isn't very productive.
• 34:42
  And so you've said, Hey, tell me about that. Trying to be genuinely curious.
• 34:46
  And then what would their answer typically be of why they needed to have conversations
• 34:52
  with the person that didn't really deserve a place in the relationship?
• 34:56
  I feel like we can go, we can, we can make that a little bit more clear.
• 35:00
  Yeah. Okay. Talk about that.
• 35:01
  Because I think this is pretty significant. It would be, it was,
• 35:03
  the person I was dating had a relationship with someone that they should not
• 35:06
  have had a relationship with.
• 35:08
  In your opinion. In my opinion. And I would acknowledge.
• 35:10
  And everyone I've spoken to
• 35:11
  agrees as well that it was kind of an inappropriate relationship to have.
• 35:14
  And then if I would bring it up with curiosity, just tell me about that.
• 35:18
  Tell me like, what is the need there?
• 35:20
  What are the intentions there? Anything like that. It would get spun to,
• 35:23
  I'm crazy for thinking that that would be anything different.
• 35:27
  And I'm in the wrong for trying to make it anything different than what it is.
• 35:32
  And that even though the topics of conversation were very inappropriate,
• 35:36
  that I must be reading it wrong.
• 35:40
  Even though I'd seen it word for word what was being said. And it was very inappropriate.
• 35:45
  And then I was made to be like, how dare you think that, basically.
• 35:51
  So then they would finally, this person would finally then say,
• 35:53
  okay, fine, I won't talk to that person again.
• 35:55
  But at that point... but then they just did they just hit
• 35:58
  it yeah they hit it and then what did it feel like even when they said okay fine it
• 36:01
  wasn't a genuine man i'm gonna really look introspective straight
• 36:04
  up i do not understand where you're coming from or why you would possibly think that
• 36:07
  but i guess i have to do this so what would you do moving
• 36:10
  forward because in the moment should that be a bigger i think so i know we're
• 36:15
  being very vague with that but it's basically if trust and a boundary are both
• 36:19
  broken and somebody has proved to you over and over and over again that they
• 36:22
  cannot hold or respect your boundaries or have given you any reason to trust them,
• 36:27
  I think you have every right to walk away. Yeah, it's hard.
• 36:30
  It's very hard, but it's like at this point, if I were in that situation again.
• 36:34
  I would not give more chances to that because you've already shown me exactly who you are.
• 36:38
  And that's one thing I'm trying to learn is that when somebody shows you who
• 36:41
  they are, you actually, it's almost on you to believe that because they've given
• 36:44
  you the warning, they're showing you exactly who they are.
• 36:47
  And I'm learning to toe the line of seeing the best in people and trying to
• 36:50
  give grace and give second chances, but also just seeing it for what it is.
• 36:55
  That I think is a really difficult thing to balance and to try to not lose yourself.
• 37:00
  And again, being kind, being generous, trying to give grace,
• 37:03
  but then also just allowing yourself to be walked all over and then showing
• 37:06
  someone that they can walk all over.
• 37:08
  Cause I think that's another thing in this relationship that I learned is that
• 37:10
  I, every time I then heard the mouth noises and then I said,
• 37:14
  okay, you're right. I forgive you.
• 37:16
  I was basically saying, and if you just say the right noises,
• 37:19
  I will forgive you every time.
• 37:20
  So you can do whatever you want, but as long as you say the right words, I will stay.
• 37:25
  And I basically handed that to this person.
• 37:29
  And then, so then it's like, who was, I didn't think that anything would change.
• 37:32
  That's deep and mature and also it stinks as well. Yeah.
• 37:36
  Because you're training the relationship how it will operate by what you tolerate.
• 37:40
  I remember a friend of mine who said, I just can't keep doing this.
• 37:42
  And his therapist said, oh, you can, you have been. And you are, and you're going to.
• 37:46
  And that's the thing that I think is hard, where it's like, no,
• 37:48
  it actually comes down to you.
• 37:50
  Making the hard choice and leaving. And that's another thing that we could go
• 37:54
  into so many things about because in this relationship that we are talking about, I did leave.
• 37:59
  That was after a long time and I should have left way before I did,
• 38:02
  but I eventually somehow got the courage to leave.
• 38:06
  And it's crazy because it's like, oh, that was like, I had the power to do that the whole time.
• 38:11
  And that's an interesting thing to then sit back and be like,
• 38:13
  wow, I could have done that. Then the boundary stuff, I'll move it into the hypothetical.
• 38:17
  So let's say that hypothetically there's a couple and the
• 38:21
  guy is communicating to somebody that
• 38:24
  he works with and they're being super flirty and this person is quite
• 38:26
  a bit older it can seem to get out of hand and then the girlfriend finds the
• 38:31
  text so then that guy is saying you're wrong and you're crazy you don't understand
• 38:35
  and then finally it's the you're wrong and you're crazy didn't get the girlfriend
• 38:39
  to stop yeah that's what i think is really interesting because if the girlfriend
• 38:42
  would have bit on any those,
• 38:44
  then he just still keeps doing it anyway with impunity.
• 38:47
  Right, but that relationship would have progressed. Yeah, and so then after
• 38:51
  the girlfriend stayed grounded and present, then finally he's like,
• 38:55
  okay, fine, I won't do it anymore.
• 38:56
  But still, it was after he tried to say, you're wrong and you're crazy and then fine, I won't do it.
• 39:02
  So from my chair, it's interesting because if the girlfriend bites at any of
• 39:06
  those earlier, it trains the relationship even more.
• 39:08
  But what it also trained the relationship with was stick with it long enough
• 39:12
  and he'll find the right thing to say.
• 39:14
  Yeah. It's really interesting. It's almost like when you take a little kid to
• 39:17
  the store and they want the toy and then you're like, no, you can't have it. And then they try.
• 39:20
  Just this one time, the parent says no. They'll cycle through enough things
• 39:23
  until it finally lands. Yeah.
• 39:25
  I'll save up for it. I'll pay for it myself. Then they lose their mind and get
• 39:29
  angry about it. Then finally the parent's like, okay, just this one time.
• 39:33
  But all the kids learn. I just had to cycle through a few more things and then I found it.
• 39:37
  That's what I think is really interesting. And then it's like that's basically
• 39:39
  carried through to a relationship, a grown relationship.
• 39:42
  And then would you ever hear the, well just tell me what I need to do.
• 39:46
  That's another one that i think is not a healthy thing because
• 39:48
  basically that person's saying no just tell me what you need
• 39:51
  me to do to make you feel better even though i'm
• 39:54
  doing it because i care or want you to feel seen or heard or
• 39:57
  i want this relationship to be better just how do i get out of this discomfort
• 40:00
  in this moment yeah yeah but it can even sound i'll see couples do that and
• 40:04
  they think that that's a healthy conversation of just tell me what you need
• 40:08
  me to do there's usually some frustration behind it oh yeah like it yes no i
• 40:13
  like that you said that because there There is a version... There's a genuine way to do that.
• 40:15
  Yeah, there is. How can I help you? How can I show up for you?
• 40:18
  Yeah, because I honestly am not sure how, but then it's funny because if the person genuinely,
• 40:23
  they would have to be able to acknowledge that that behavior they're doing isn't
• 40:27
  helpful for the relationship, but they would have to also admit the fact that
• 40:31
  they're going to take a look introspectively of why they do it.
• 40:35
  Because then now maybe it makes more sense of what would
• 40:38
  you need right now i need to know what you're doing to work are you
• 40:40
  going to therapy or right what books are you reading what podcast you're listening
• 40:44
  to are you gonna find some examples no i i mean i have a list of lots of examples
• 40:48
  i could say but i feel like since we've kind of we've briefly touched on this
• 40:53
  relationship i was in but i did go through and did a here's everything i've learned from it,
• 40:59
  so if we can maybe just rapid fire through this okay i would really like today
• 41:02
  but i basically framed this as everything I've learned being single again in my late 20s. Okay.
• 41:09
  Because I'm practically 40 years old at this point. We can just rapid fire.
• 41:13
  We could probably talk about each one of these for an hour each.
• 41:16
  So we're just going to rapid fire. Okay.
• 41:17
  My first one, feel it. When the uncomfortable feelings arise,
• 41:20
  your natural instinct will be to distract, hide, or run.
• 41:23
  Do not. You have to feel it. The actual healing is going to come from feeling those feelings.
• 41:29
  And I know people don't really get this one because then it's,
• 41:32
  well, if I'm sitting with it and feeling it, then what do i do and do
• 41:35
  you have any thoughts on that i think you you
• 41:39
  continue to do little things but you allow the thoughts to still be
• 41:41
  there and you don't try to completely distract so for me it'd be like i went
• 41:45
  on a lot of walks you know where it's like i'm still thinking i'm allowing the
• 41:48
  feelings to be there i'm not fully distracting because there's definitely a
• 41:52
  way to do that where then you're watching shows and you're playing games and
• 41:56
  you're doing things that are great and they're beneficial in those moments and
• 41:58
  they are the little things but you also need to feel things.
• 42:02
  Too. So it's like, I think you're walking, you're meditating,
• 42:04
  you're sitting in a sauna.
• 42:06
  You're like doing these things that force you or you're talking about it even,
• 42:09
  but you're doing these things that you actually have to feel the uncomfortable feelings.
• 42:13
  And that can be anything from betrayal deep as that, or just bummed that a relationship
• 42:17
  didn't work out or sad or being so mad at that person.
• 42:20
  It's letting those feelings just pass through. And you've talked a lot too about
• 42:23
  finding where they are in your body and noticing the feelings and allowing them
• 42:28
  to be there and not trying to just shove them down.
• 42:30
  That's the key. I love that you're saying that it makes sense when somebody
• 42:33
  says, I don't think that's going to work or I don't even know what to do.
• 42:35
  It's because we don't do that.
• 42:37
  And it isn't. And you nailed it where to get rid of the emotion or feeling is
• 42:41
  to then either turn to unhealthy coping mechanism. Yeah.
• 42:44
  There's a balance there. You can't go too far to just numbing and distracting
• 42:48
  because this is another side note that has been very helpful for me in my whole life.
• 42:53
  But I think it's probably a thing you've told me, but you cannot selectively numb feelings.
• 42:59
  And so if you're numbing the bad, you are numbing the good. Yeah.
• 43:02
  And there's no... you can't just pick. I don't feel like feeling that.
• 43:06
  You're now dropping everything down to a lower level.
• 43:10
  And sometimes people will accept that fact of because if I'm going to just watch
• 43:13
  shows instead of wanting to run into traffic, I'll go with that.
• 43:16
  Yeah. That one's okay. But then at some point then let's try to break down what
• 43:20
  are all the feelings because it's not usually just one.
• 43:23
  Because I think somebody, right, you can be a little bit relieved that you figured
• 43:25
  this out, but also sad and angry and frustrated and hopeless and fearful. Yeah.
• 43:32
  And then you can even throw in a little bit of there's maybe some excitement there for,
• 43:36
  potential of your future you know what i mean like there's like it can be such
• 43:38
  a complicated mix of feelings especially if we're talking specifically about
• 43:42
  breakups that's one of the most complex times to
• 43:45
  feel and there's just so much there where we
• 43:48
  saw your maturity even more is that
• 43:51
  you were you did seem to be doing a lot better
• 43:54
  as you process things but you were also feeling all the other emotions
• 43:57
  because i thought about we didn't talk about this but even when
• 43:59
  you just said and there can even be some excitement is that I know that if
• 44:03
  you're telling that to somebody like a friend then they might think cool then
• 44:06
  you're good right you know so sometimes I think people don't even want to express
• 44:11
  that I mean I'm a little bit relieved because then the other person's like okay
• 44:14
  I don't have to check in anymore we're good and it's like no you can feel okay
• 44:17
  in that moment and then still have many days of,
• 44:21
  it sucks. Okay, on this note before you have to say, I don't know if you remember,
• 44:24
  I sent in our family group chat one day, I just sent this quote that I heard,
• 44:27
  the answers you seek are in the silence that you are avoiding.
• 44:31
  Sometimes the most powerful thoughts are the fleeting ones that you may never
• 44:33
  hear if you're constantly being busy.
• 44:35
  That was so deep. I know, I love that your mom said, I feel personally in fact.
• 44:39
  But it is, it's that silence and it can be so scary to be in that silence.
• 44:43
  But that again is where I think feeling happens and
• 44:46
  then that's what leads to actually healing and working through things and
• 44:48
  processing emotions that's how we're built to process our
• 44:51
  emotions but we're in such a time of distract and
• 44:54
  shove down and don't feel it so it's tricky okay
• 44:58
  what else you got that was a good one okay then i have which this i've actually
• 45:01
  changed my mind on a little bit but initially i said trust is earned not given
• 45:05
  blindly and i don't know if i still would stand by that trust has to be earned
• 45:09
  but i think that if somebody proves to you that they are not trustworthy you
• 45:12
  no longer owe them your blind trust is where i would shift that if somebody.
• 45:17
  Repeatedly is untrustworthy they have no
• 45:20
  right to then turn around and get mad at you for not trusting them i guess is
• 45:24
  my is my shift on that but i do think you should give people chances and you
• 45:28
  should be open to trusting people even when it's new but if they've proved to
• 45:32
  you yeah you cannot trust them there because i in my specific situation it's like then i would be,
• 45:39
  something this person would do something untrustworthy.
• 45:42
  And then I would lose some trust and then I would bring up that,
• 45:45
  hey, I maybe don't feel like I super trust you and then I would somehow get
• 45:49
  yelled at for not trusting the untrustworthy person.
• 45:52
  I have such a hot take on this and I got to see if I can find this one quote.
• 45:56
  It's from a podcast that I listened to called Invisibilia.
• 46:00
  They had this author on and he had a book about trust. He said that you don't
• 46:05
  really know a person and what that means is that if somebody betrays you,
• 46:08
  then it's not such a shock.
• 46:09
  It doesn't surprise them that the person does a thing they didn't think that
• 46:12
  that person was going to do.
• 46:13
  When somebody betrays our trust, what happens is we have an idea of who they
• 46:17
  are and they behave in a way that runs against the idea.
• 46:20
  We say to them, I thought that you were different. I thought that you weren't
• 46:23
  like that. How could you do that to me when I had this idea of you?
• 46:26
  And this is a controversial take, but he says it's a tyrannical way to behave.
• 46:30
  I have this idea of you. You have to conform to it or our friendship is over.
• 46:34
  So basically he's saying we're stuck in a binary.
• 46:36
  We either totally trust somebody or they betray us and then we're done with them.
• 46:39
  But this other way of thinking, and he calls it mistrust with a capital M,
• 46:43
  gives you a third option.
• 46:44
  And it's hard to get your head around. It's basically saying trust people less
• 46:47
  and it's a more liberating world, but have more respect for the fact that you
• 46:51
  can't know them and that their behavior might sometimes betray or let you down.
• 46:54
  But where I've landed on this one is, I'm owning the fact that in a relationship.
• 46:59
  We don't know what we don't know about the other person. We are projecting how
• 47:04
  we think they'll show up in a relationship.
• 47:05
  But there are some things that why I don't want to call them universal truths,
• 47:08
  but that are pretty crummy to do.
• 47:11
  And so then when those things do happen over time, they are going to erode trust.
• 47:16
  And so when I get a couple in here, we'll say the guy has been the one who betrayed the wife.
• 47:21
  It's almost inevitable where he'll say at some point she just needs to trust
• 47:24
  me. And I say, oh, no, no, no.
• 47:26
  Right now we have to accept the fact that she may never trust you again.
• 47:29
  Because what that acceptance means now everything's on the table as far as ways to rebuild trust.
• 47:35
  So I'm with you on this. I think we naturally are going to trust our partner.
• 47:39
  You're saying in a very black and white way that it has to be all or nothing.
• 47:42
  And I think that that's just not how trust actually works. And I don't think
• 47:46
  that's necessarily a bad thing.
• 47:47
  Yeah, it's going to evolve. But then I would imagine there are some certain
• 47:50
  things, though, that there has to be an acceptance.
• 47:53
  It's like you can always have a boundary set, though, of like,
• 47:55
  okay, if this thing happens, that is going to affect the trust no matter what.
• 47:59
  Yeah. But short of that, I do understand the longer that you're with somebody
• 48:03
  over time, they're not being the person you thought they would be,
• 48:06
  which actually makes sense. Yeah. And that is interesting to view it that way.
• 48:10
  But then, yeah, again, I think there are certain things where it's like,
• 48:12
  okay, but you've now lied to me a hundred times.
• 48:15
  So why would I trust anything that you're saying? You know what I mean?
• 48:18
  So it's like, there is that line for sure.
• 48:20
  And when a person, let's say, who's been the betrayer embraces that,
• 48:24
  then I've seen real growth occur because then they are accepting the fact that
• 48:28
  i'm i can earn this back by being more honest and open because usually the person's
• 48:35
  afraid to be honest because they assume that that person will take it a certain
• 48:39
  way so they're not even set back to that managing emotion so i didn't want to
• 48:42
  tell her because i didn't want her to get mad at me.
• 48:44
  Tell her and allow her to have her own emotions or feelings and
• 48:47
  it might be she is mad but it might not yeah yeah
• 48:50
  okay rapid fire okay yeah i didn't rapid
• 48:53
  fire that one very well i threw in my this is kind of what we were talking about
• 48:56
  but no feeling is ever final one of my favorite quotes as someone who has dealt
• 49:01
  with a lot of anxiety in her life that has been a really big thing for me that
• 49:05
  no feeling is ever final it's good or bad but that as humans like we are constantly just,
• 49:11
  feeling different things and you'll notice that every feeling you've
• 49:14
  ever had has come and gone in one way or another and so
• 49:17
  it's like I think that's a really big thing to remember in moments where
• 49:20
  things are bad or dark or scary that
• 49:23
  it's like hey no this feeling is temporary don't know how long it'll last but
• 49:27
  it's going to go away at some point and it might come back like you kind of
• 49:30
  have to have that acceptance that it could come back again but it's not going
• 49:35
  to stay here at 100% forever and to just lean into that and it goes both ways.
• 49:40
  There's a level of that too with the positive feelings and being happy and like
• 49:43
  being content that that will only last for so long and then that's another like,
• 49:47
  so soak it up. Well, you know what I mean? Like there's so many ways you can spin that.
• 49:51
  I just i think that's really deep and i think it's it's important and then i
• 49:55
  think it goes with you always tell me to just bring my emotions with me or like
• 49:59
  my anxiety you'll tell me to bring it with me and i think that that's a piece
• 50:01
  of it where it's like hey you don't need to let these feelings,
• 50:03
  stop you from living your life and doing the things that you need to do or continuing
• 50:06
  to heal or continuing to grow but just know that they might be there when you
• 50:10
  don't want them to be there and that's okay you can still continue on have i
• 50:13
  sold you on the concept of impermanence yet do you know what that means okay
• 50:16
  i think you're gonna like this one this is from a recent podcasts and I've been obsessed with it.
• 50:20
  Impermanence is the recognition that everything, literally everything is constantly changing.
• 50:24
  Nothing's fixed. Nothing's permanent. Not our bodies, not our thoughts,
• 50:27
  not our emotions, not our relationships, not our beliefs, not our understanding of truth.
• 50:30
  It comes from the Buddhist world. And for some people, it sounds terrifying.
• 50:34
  Some people think it sounds like kind of nihilistic.
• 50:36
  I was going to say it and it's nihilist. Right? Because if nothing's permanent, what do we count on?
• 50:39
  But the paradox is when you accept impermanence, then it becomes healing because
• 50:43
  so much suffering is from trying to make things permanent that can't be.
• 50:46
  So, we cling to our beliefs, we cling to that I'm going to feel this way forever,
• 50:50
  we hold on to versions of ourselves that no longer serve us.
• 50:54
  Exactly, it's the default. So, we stay in these rigid positions and we're afraid
• 50:57
  that if we change our mind, then that means that we did something wrong and
• 51:00
  it being wrong feels like death. Exactly.
• 51:02
  So, impermanence teaches us that the problem isn't change because change is inevitable.
• 51:06
  The problem is our resistance to it, our desperate clinging to certainty in
• 51:09
  an uncertain world or the need to be right instead of curious,
• 51:12
  when you embrace impermanence, then I have noticed that even if I'm having a
• 51:18
  difficult conversation with somebody, I'm aware that it's funny,
• 51:21
  my brain goes to this too shall pass.
• 51:23
  And so then it allows you to not make it as big of a, this is,
• 51:27
  and this is it, this conversation doesn't have to change everything.
• 51:31
  Because you won't remember a lot of it by later that night or even the next day.
• 51:35
  And so it allows you to stay more in the conversation out of your own head and
• 51:39
  then more genuinely curious about what's going on so that's a good one huh yeah
• 51:44
  i will sell you on impermanence okay,
• 51:47
  you shouldn't be going to sleep sad every night or crying in a healthy relationship every night.
• 51:52
  Moving on, begging for someone to care, not normal in a healthy relationship. That one, Mackie. Yeah.
• 51:58
  We'll put note to self. We'll do that one in a whole other episode sometimes
• 52:01
  because there should never be a time that you literally have to beg someone to just care. Yeah.
• 52:06
  That's crazy. It is. And until you know yourself well enough,
• 52:10
  which can also sound cliched, because then I want to be so curious as to why
• 52:13
  the person I'm in the relationship doesn't seem to care about this thing.
• 52:17
  Like I want to, I get genuinely curious, co-regulation that's
• 52:20
  another one i'll put a pin in we because that is the mouth sounds yeah
• 52:23
  but i don't know if we talked about this i'm getting so nerdy into it
• 52:26
  but if you think of baby crying they don't know how to
• 52:28
  calm themselves mom holds a baby and says essentially
• 52:32
  hey let me let you borrow my nervous system and
• 52:35
  we can co-regulate because when you have that version of
• 52:38
  it that then if you're going to the person going about
• 52:41
  you why don't you care and then they're all of a sudden they're like i you
• 52:44
  know they're doing that whole thing that then once i'm you
• 52:47
  know what i deserve to be cared for about and i care about myself so i want
• 52:52
  to know why don't you person i'm in a relationship care about these things right
• 52:56
  so i'm also lending my nervous position to like show up that way yeah okay another
• 53:00
  one there's no correct timeline of feeling i think that's big and this goes
• 53:04
  to what you talk about all the time but that,
• 53:06
  this is everybody's first time doing this and it's like there is no i think
• 53:10
  we so just pretend or get caught up in the fact that there has to be some blueprint
• 53:14
  of life and that somebody.
• 53:16
  Has decided this is exactly how everything has to go and this
• 53:19
  is how long you're allowed to feel this and this is how you know there's we like
• 53:22
  assume that for some reason and it's like no nobody has done this
• 53:25
  before nobody literally nobody has done this and nobody has
• 53:28
  been you in that exact position like you talk about all the time nobody can
• 53:32
  put a timeline on how you're feeling things
• 53:34
  and obviously there's a way to like you don't want to sit and ruminate on something
• 53:38
  forever and you can argue those things but there is
• 53:41
  no it's not like okay you get two weeks
• 53:44
  to feel that and then you're you gotta snap out of it if i can
• 53:46
  be so bold in this kind of relationship that went
• 53:50
  pretty quick what you were dealing with is wild it
• 53:53
  was big if there's a tragedy in your life yeah there is
• 53:55
  no timeline nobody can say hey you got four hours to feel this and then we're
• 54:00
  moving on and you heard that that person's friend had dealt with something similar
• 54:05
  a while ago and they did it this way so therefore i had to do it that way that's
• 54:09
  crazy we're all so different and we're all doing this for the first time, where the way that you,
• 54:13
  we could have the same tragedy happen and you're going to feel it so different
• 54:18
  than I'm going to feel it.
• 54:19
  And your timeline is going to be so different than my timeline.
• 54:22
  And it's like, that's not, that doesn't mean someone's doing it wrong and someone's doing it right.
• 54:27
  And so I think that just, I mean, this, again, this was specifically coming
• 54:31
  from healing from a breakup, but I think it goes to every aspect of life,
• 54:33
  but it's like, there is no correct timeline.
• 54:35
  And that extends to, I think then everything, like
• 54:38
  I get so caught up in the I'm 26 and I'm single I'm
• 54:41
  behind and like my timeline is wrong right it's like no it's not
• 54:44
  who decided that no and so it's just
• 54:47
  that extends to every aspect of life that there is no correct
• 54:50
  timeline so I want to look directly into the camera and say that if you are
• 54:54
  someone who finds yourself often telling your partner that they are doing it
• 54:59
  wrong whatever they're doing and they're feeling and the way they're doing it
• 55:03
  yeah then knock it off respectfully how did you get the power to decide that
• 55:07
  that person's doing it wrong?
• 55:09
  So, my favorite line then would be to like this person that we're talking about.
• 55:12
  So, when he was a 26-year-old girl at work in an esthetician school where somebody
• 55:17
  there went through a tragedy.
• 55:20
  He's had that experience yeah i'm willing to listen
• 55:23
  to how he handled it but until you are in that exact position
• 55:26
  i don't want to hear it no so other than that then actually
• 55:29
  the greatest thing that he could have done was to make space for
• 55:33
  your emotions it's that simple it's i mean it really
• 55:36
  it really can't be man that sounds so difficult i can't
• 55:38
  even imagine how can i show up for you right now that's it
• 55:41
  that's all it has to be yeah so it shows you how uncomfortable
• 55:44
  it made him yeah and then it goes right to the the most
• 55:47
  one of the most emotionally immature things i think one can express
• 55:51
  is that well you're having a different experience than
• 55:54
  i am or that i think you should so therefore you must
• 55:57
  think you're right and i'm wrong so now i have to attack you
• 56:00
  and put you in a one down position and me in a one up so i
• 56:03
  feel better not cool no it's
• 56:06
  so crazy yeah um backing that though the
• 56:10
  fact that healing is not usually linear yeah and that's
• 56:12
  a normal thing you could have you could think you're doing so well you could be months
• 56:15
  out of a breakup or something going on and then have a day that all
• 56:18
  of a sudden it just kind of hits you like a truck and you're like feeling all
• 56:21
  the emotions again and that doesn't mean you took a step back that doesn't mean
• 56:23
  it's like it's you're just processing things there's so many thoughts that there
• 56:26
  because sometimes i even think that since we don't allow our big emotions to
• 56:30
  hang out much because we either were never really taught how to do them or we
• 56:35
  think we're doing them wrong that every now and again your emotions are just
• 56:37
  going to do a quick sound check and be like hey is this thing on like.
• 56:41
  Feeling all these emotions and it's like let's have a day and
• 56:44
  guess what not final not permanent it's just it's
• 56:47
  just there um then he said being alone is
• 56:50
  better than settling for less than you deserve and that
• 56:53
  leaving can actually be a very brave decision and
• 56:56
  it doesn't make you a bad guy and it doesn't mean you like gave
• 56:59
  up on something it's like no if you you know like you know if
• 57:02
  it's time for you to leave and there's nothing wrong with and maybe
• 57:05
  i'll add too that um if somebody does a lot of couples therapy with people
• 57:08
  that there's an emotionally immature partner or a narcissistic partner
• 57:11
  in the relationship that leaving doesn't even have to
• 57:14
  be something that happens immediately that it's it can be like you
• 57:17
  say healing's not healing's not linear so
• 57:19
  somebody can start putting the pieces together and then they'll probably even
• 57:23
  try to have the conversations and then they may not go well and they'll think
• 57:26
  what's wrong with me and they'll think i'm going to leave and they're going
• 57:28
  to get like i can do this and they're not and it's just this roller coaster
• 57:32
  yeah well the actual like leaving process for me probably was a five month thing
• 57:36
  yeah like from the first conversation of,
• 57:40
  if things do not change, I can't do this. Yeah. To the actual leaving. Yeah.
• 57:44
  Probably five months. Yeah. So definitely not just like.
• 57:48
  Um i have a lot more but i'll leave i'll end on just this
• 57:51
  one okay um and we've talked about this a lot and
• 57:54
  this was this was really hard for me initially we're now
• 57:57
  months out and i'm feeling pretty much just fine but um being the one to leave
• 58:02
  sometimes means giving the person the gift of getting to play the victim and
• 58:06
  you essentially sign off to be like the villain in their story even if you're
• 58:10
  not the one that did anything wrong um but that that's okay because you know
• 58:14
  your truth. You know how you were treated.
• 58:16
  You know how many chances you gave everything that you forgave and every reason you chose to leave.
• 58:20
  So you need to just lean into that and find peace. Let them think whatever they
• 58:23
  need to, to ease their discomfort, but you know, your truth, you know, your reality.
• 58:27
  Um, but I think that can be really hard and that can be a reason that people
• 58:30
  stay in relationships because they don't want to be written off as the villain,
• 58:33
  the villain or the bad guy, especially when you're the one kind of taking the
• 58:37
  hit in the relationship over and over and over.
• 58:40
  Um, if you're the one that's like unhappy and you're the one
• 58:43
  that feels mistreated and then you leave
• 58:46
  and then somehow end up the bad guy like that's a that messes with
• 58:49
  the person oh and that's really hard and and that
• 58:52
  can feel like literally just the
• 58:55
  grossest feeling in the world but you know
• 58:58
  the truth and you know the reality and the and i think too
• 59:01
  you can kind of go down the like the truth always comes out
• 59:03
  type of thing where it's like that person is going to continue the same type of
• 59:06
  relationship pattern yep for the rest of their life and the
• 59:09
  people in their life are going to see that and going to watch that unfold and
• 59:13
  kind of be able to piece together you know absolutely pieces of
• 59:15
  it that are actually true and then you know your reality you know
• 59:18
  what happened you have every right to leave and that
• 59:21
  doesn't make you the bad guy no and choosing yourself is actually
• 59:24
  a really powerful and brave thing and it's not you're not the bad guy for choosing
• 59:28
  yourself no and i i didn't even realize you had that that one down because i
• 59:31
  don't know how much we talked about that but that is one of the most difficult
• 59:35
  things that when somebody's trying to leave a marriage or you know a long-term
• 59:39
  relationship is it's what i think if I had to put these stages of grief and
• 59:42
  loss and those sort of things together,
• 59:44
  it's one of these final ones that there's an acceptance,
• 59:46
  because the person will continually try to set it up so that they won't be the victim.
• 59:53
  Or they won't be the bad guy yeah and i'm telling them man the
• 59:56
  sooner you can accept oh you will right then that's
• 59:59
  okay yeah but it's you're so right it's hard yeah that's
• 1:00:03
  the one where i make jokes all the time about all the things i learn about that about
• 1:00:06
  even me as a therapist that i change people's sexual
• 1:00:09
  orientation i made them leave their churches i made them leave marriages i made
• 1:00:13
  them change careers i don't have that kind of power right but you get thrown
• 1:00:17
  into that bad guy position all the time because people need you're actually
• 1:00:20
  helping people so much but they need a scapegoat because that person can't just
• 1:00:23
  say you know what I think I was not really the most mature person in the relationship.
• 1:00:27
  I maybe messed up a little bit.
• 1:00:28
  I did some things wrong. It's like that person was bad.
• 1:00:31
  That therapist told him that. And that can be really hard to sit with.
• 1:00:34
  It's not worth. He used to it.
• 1:00:37
  But really it's not worth wasting your time or energy worrying about how that
• 1:00:41
  person's going to spin something. Thanks Mac. That was fun.
• 1:00:44
  Was it? I had a good time. Yeah. Okay. Kind of all over the place.
• 1:00:47
  We're going to go do a little top golfing with a little grandson baby
• 1:00:50
  guy cool good thing and then and i am on the social medias
• 1:00:53
  at virtual couch on instagram at virtual couch on
• 1:00:56
  tiktok where do they find you beauty by mackie on instagram and on the ticking
• 1:01:01
  talk i don't know what it is on there probably okay all right a fun one to follow
• 1:01:06
  though if you have thoughts or questions about this episode please write in.
• 1:01:09
  Because we would do a q a and taking this out per usual wonderful the talented
• 1:01:12
  rora florents with her song it's wonderful because if you do.