Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E65: Should CHRISTIANS Celebrate Halloween? with Fr. Ambrose Criste

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E65: Should CHRISTIANS Celebrate Halloween? with Fr. Ambrose Criste · The Lila Rose Show

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Should Christians celebrate Halloween?
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Absolutely, because Halloween and the days that follow are
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Christian festivals. Death is on our mind in these
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days, and that's a good thing for Christians to think about.
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Now what about ghosts? Most of the time, those kind of
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supernatural experiences are attributed to one of two things.
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Hey guys, welcome back to the Lila Rose podcast.
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Today we're going to do an episode on Halloween.
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It's coming up, not just Halloween, but it's also All
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Saints Day, All Souls Day the next day in some faith
0:33
traditions. So anyways, we're going to get
0:35
into Halloween. We're going to get into what is
0:37
the Christian response to Halloween?
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Should your kids trick or treat? Most people will say, yeah, of
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course, duh. What about the goblins and the
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gremlins and the witches and the ghosts?
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Are ghosts real? Do ghosts exist?
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What does that mean? Should we interact with ghosts?
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What does it mean that some Christian traditions teach
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purgatory? And purgatory has a lot to do
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with All Souls Day because in the Catholic tradition, you pray
1:03
for the dead. What does this all mean?
1:05
We're going to break it down, miss questions and
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misconceptions about Halloween, and we're going to have on the
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very popular Father Ambrose. Christ.
1:14
Father Ambrose was on before talking about angels and demons
1:17
and his work as an exorcist, but now we're going to talk all
1:20
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2:24
Father Ambrose, thanks so much for coming back in the podcast.
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Thanks for having me back, Lila. Your last episode, you, you were
2:30
a huge hit. I mean, everyone, everyone loved
2:33
that. The episode that you did on
2:35
Angels and Demons. Well, I think the topic is
2:37
really attractive. People have a lot of questions
2:38
about that. And you know, it's all for God's
2:41
glory, Lila so. Amen.
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Amen. Well, we loved people wanted you
2:46
back and there are lots of questions about faith and
2:49
spirituality we get on the channel.
2:51
And so who better to talk about Halloween than you?
2:56
We're going to talk about Halloween.
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We're going to talk about All Souls Day, All Saints Day, which
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are the traditional Christian holidays, separate from
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Halloween but connected. And we're going to talk about,
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let's see, ghosts. OK, that sounds good.
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And purgatory. We'll get into that and wherever
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else we go. So thank you again.
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Now, how have you been since we last had you on the show?
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Well, God is good and my conference and I are are trying
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to do all we can to build up the Kingdom of Christ here on earth.
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So a lot of wonderful projects underway in the Midwest in
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Springfield, IL, our new there of course at the Abbey, lots of
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great things happening all the time.
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So thank you for asking. Yeah, and you just launched a a
3:34
new program as well, I heard? Yes, a little commercial, huh?
3:37
Thanks, Lila. So the Ever Mode Institute, St.
3:39
Ever Mode is a Saint of our Norbertine order and we're we're
3:43
launching A catechetical program of formation to teach the faith
3:46
to different demographics, Catholic school teachers and
3:49
catechists and parishes and parents.
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So kind of bolstering the full and orthodox Catholic identity
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amongst the people who might be missing that and need to have
4:00
that. Wonderful.
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Wonder if I look forward to learning more about it.
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OK, so Halloween. OK, should Christians celebrate
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Halloween? Absolutely, because Halloween
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and the days that follow are Christian festivals.
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This is a Christian, a Catholic Christian series of three days,
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Halloween. Of course, you probably know
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this Lila, the the word comes from the old English All Hallows
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Eve, All Hallows Eve, Halloween. And it's the eve of All Saints
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Day, Hallows Day. All Hallows is All Saints.
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So it's the vigil of the great solemnity of All Saints.
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And that's why we have it at all, because in in Catholic
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Christian life, we mark these biggest and holiest days of the
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year with a vigil and sometimes with preparation even before the
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vigil. So this is the eve of a great
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solemnity, which is a holy day of obligation for Catholics now
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and a great festival throughout the Universal Church, All Saints
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Day now. Some people say that we took a
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Pagan holiday and we made it into a Christian holiday.
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Is there any truth to that? There's also these accusations
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about Christmas, Yes. So no, I mean it's easy.
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It's easy for people who hate Christ and his church to try to
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make these associations, which might be founded in some kind of
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similarities or certainly cultural.
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The cultural bleed from one group of people to another is
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real. But no, it's not it.
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It would be an oversimplification and also
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wrong to say that Christianity simply took Pagan festivals and
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put this veneer of faith on top of them.
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It. That's way too simple.
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And that's not exactly what happened.
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So in the case of Halloween, it's even farther from the
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truth. The late 19th century, early
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20th century accusations about about Halloween being a Pagan
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thing that was somehow baptized by Roman Catholics is just, that
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was just kind of Protestant vitriol against, against
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Catholics. You know, our, our, our country,
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the United States was founded as a Protestant Christian nation.
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And there was always a real fear and even mistrust and sometimes
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a real kind of persecution of against the Catholic Christians.
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So when all of these English and Irish and Belgian and Dutch
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immigrants were coming, especially at the end of the
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19th century, they brought with them all of their Catholic
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customs, including the things surrounding All Saints Day and
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All Souls Day and Halloween, the eve, the eve of those feasts and
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the the most kind of anti Catholic Protestants were like
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whoa. What are these trick or treaters
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doing more? Reason to to put the smack.
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The Smack. Down on the camera when those
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Catholic immigrants came into the United States in the late
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20th or the late 19th and and 20th century did, and they kind
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of brought the tradition of All Souls, All All Saints Eve and
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then All Souls Day, All Saints Day.
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And so Halloween. So you're saying there's sort of
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this emergence of Halloween in the United States.
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What did it look like then? Were they trick or treating?
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Well, so and what? Is trick or treating?
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How is that Christian? Okay, so I think 2 kind of two
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paths we can follow there, Lila. One, just the nature of Catholic
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festivity, Catholic festivals and the customs that go along
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with that very culturally founded and particular to
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different parts of especially European culture.
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So many of the, we might say, cultural trappings of the way
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that Catholics celebrate festivals comes with them when
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they come to the New World. And there's certainly some of
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that with Halloween and All Souls Day and All Saints Day,
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All Saints Day, All Souls Day. So it's it's perfectly normal
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across all of Catholic cultures to pray for the dead, to spend
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time in the cemetery on All Souls Day and to prepare for
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that on All Saints Day. So to be in those places where
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we have laid our beloved ones to rest, decorating their graves,
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bringing flowers, carrying candles, washing their
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tombstones. And in some cultures, they would
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even spend the whole of November 2nd in the cemetery having a
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picnic, praying for the dead, remembering with great fondness
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their their loved ones who are members of the church, right?
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Just because they've died there, they haven't, they haven't.
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They're still members of the church and members of our
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family. So, so along with that comes
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these wonderful customs. You, you mentioned trick or
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treating in certain parts of European culture on the the
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vigil. So the eve before All Saints
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that people would go asking door to door for little sweets and
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say, you know, I'll pray for your those who died in your
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family this last year. If you'll give me a little
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sweet, you know, a little soul cake, they called that or so you
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give me a treat and I will do this alms for you.
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I will pay this alms for your beloved debt.
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I'll say a prayer for them. And so that kind of door to
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door, asking for gifts and exchanging prayers for those
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gifts for the dead, dead. That's the Catholic underpinning
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foundation of trick or treating those words.
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Trick or treating. I think that's a much more
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modern invention. Yeah, the trick word, I think
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some people are concerned it has to do with some sort of
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witchcraft or, you know, I've heard people, you know,
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concerned, you know, Christians concerned and Catholics mostly,
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you know, evangelicals concerned.
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That's like a a cult reference. Yeah, I don't think so.
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I mean, that's not where it comes from.
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That might be what people interpret it to me now.
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But the trick, as I understand, and I could be wrong about this,
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but as, as I understand that the that English root of that, it's
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more about if the a little bit of a play, you know, this is a
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the, the tomfoolery of Catholic festivity.
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You might think about Mardi Gras, for example, or other
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times of the year when there's this wonderful partying in
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preparation for serious praying. And there's, there's a fair
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amount of that also in the history of Halloween.
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So the trick is I'm going to play a little trick on you more
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like I'm going to, I'm, I'm going to make a fool of you or
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do something tongue in cheek, something like that.
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You know, tongue in cheek kind of play a game on you.
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If you don't give me your give me the the candy.
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Now again, it's all that in Catholic life.
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That's all that's all in the context of people understand
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that that's all on good fun. And also it's not about this
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overlay of weird neo paganism. So that part, that's a very
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contemporary kind of layer of interpretation on Halloween I.
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Want to get to that. I want to get to the ghouls and
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the goblins and the ghosts because, you know, my
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neighborhood, for example, we walk down the street and there's
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like houses with these extremely scary, you know, figures.
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So I want to ask about that. But you said something really
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interesting. You said the tradition is
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connected to, you know, it goes back to prayers for the dead and
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you know all. So November 1st is All Saints
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Day. November 2nd is All Souls Day
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and the idea especially on November 2nd is you pray for the
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dead. Now this is very controversial
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among some Christians because you know, certainly the Orthodox
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and the Catholic Christians pray for the dead and they ask for
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the prayers of the dead. But you know, evangelicals and
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most mainly Protestants, you know, Baptist, this is not
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acceptable. You know, then I think it goes
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back to verses in the Bible that say you should not, you know, it
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gets necromancy. You shall not interact with
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those who are dead. These prohibition.
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So help us understand why praying for the dead is not only
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acceptable but encouraged, OK? And just before we we tease some
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of those threads out the the beautiful Catholic wisdom of
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putting these festivals together is that we have we, we
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understand, understand ourselves to be what we call the Church
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militant. Those who are still struggling
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here below, you know, working at our salvation fear and trembling
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as Saint Paul says, undergoing our our time of testing and
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getting ready to enter into the Kingdom when our life ends right
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and meeting our our judge and and please God seeing him face
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to face. That's the church suffering or
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rather the church militant here on earth.
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The church triumphant are all the Saints in heaven.
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Everybody who has arrived at the the heavenly homeland, there
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they've won the victory through Christ.
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They have reached their destination.
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That's All Saints Day. We celebrate all of those
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Saints, known and unknown, everybody who is entered
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heavenly glory and are waiting the resurrection of their bodies
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at the end of time. And then we have the church
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suffering. That's all of those souls who
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are still undergoing some purification, which is the
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Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There's an Orthodox version of
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that as well. The ancient Church and the whole
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Christian Church really until the time of the of the
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Reformation, the Protestant Reformation understood the, that
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there is this whole church universal, which is the living
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on earth, those living on earth, those awaiting their time of
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purification and those rejoicing in heaven.
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That's the whole church. We're all members of the church.
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So these these days together, what we call hallow tide, all
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hallow tide like Christmas tide or Easter tide and they could
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even call it hallow mess. The the festival of the holy
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ones is bringing all of those parts of those three parts of
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Christ's church together and and rejoicing in each other's
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goodness in the case of the Saints and praying for those who
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are still undergoing purification.
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OK, so you're purgatory. That's it that you're right.
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That's a controversial topic for non Catholic or non, I would say
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non Apostolic Christians, those whose roots don't go back to the
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beginning of the Christian Church.
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So that with the Protestant Reformation that there was a a
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great deal of rethinking some of these very ancient 5th by then
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1500 year old theological truths.
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So you're saying praying for the dead before the Reformation was
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a 1500 year old tradition? Oh sure, And even before that
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the the the Jews just before the time of our Lord's coming and
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that we read about this in the books of Maccabees.
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Praying for the dead is is also a Jewish custom.
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So that that becomes part of the Christian life too, because we
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understand that death is not the end of our relationship with one
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another. And our Lord himself says that,
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you know, God the, the father of the God, God of Abraham and
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Isaac and Jacob, He's not the God of the dead, but he's the
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God of the living. Well, when our Lord said those
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words, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob had already passed through
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the veil to the other side. And our Lord is saying that they
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are still alive. They're alive.
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And so we have a relationship with them and so can.
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You talk to them when you say they have a relationship with
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them. I know some people that their
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grandparent has passed and they really feel like their
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grandparent is watching over them.
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It feels tangible to them. These are people of faith.
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You know, they have a deep connection.
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So when you say, but you know, it's hard to know, is this real?
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Is that really happening? Or is the Lord just giving them,
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you know, comfort that they are with him in heaven or or
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something of that kind? What does it mean to have a
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relationship with the dead? Well, I think that teasing out
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what exactly is going on there in that individual Christians
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experience of that consoling kind of communication with those
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whom we love who have died, what exactly is going on there?
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It could be something emotional. It could be something deeply
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spiritual and real. It could be that God really is
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giving the consoling grace of knowing that this person is with
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me in some mysterious way and hears me.
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And of course they can if God permits them to.
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So that relationship and that communication, just like I can
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ask you to pray for me, so to you, God forbid you should go
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before me and death, I can ask you to pray for me from there
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too. We are, we are all members of
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Christ's mystical body, and death does not somehow break our
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relationships with one another. So of course, there's a veil
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between those two worlds, isn't there?
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And it's only rarely and by God's special favor that we can
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peer through the veil or that there's some more tangible kind
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of experience of the communication through that veil
16:21
of life into death. But certainly the the
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relationships are real and the intercessory power of the Saints
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is very real. Just like if I ask you to pray
16:30
for me because I have some intention on my heart that I
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need help with as fellow Christians, and you pray to God
16:37
for me or for my intention that that might be exactly what God
16:40
wanted to help affect whatever the answer to that prayer is.
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So to you, if you were to go before me and death and I asked
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that for you, why wouldn't you want to pray for me from there
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as well, right? So all that is quite mysterious,
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but the relationships are real. That's the point.
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So what it What about this prohibition against engaging the
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dead? Yeah, we don't want to so
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divination and and using in a kind of more occult way.
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I need to know the answer to this question.
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You know, like reading the reading the tea leaves or you
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know, it's it's a kind of attempt to manipulate those
17:18
relationships for my benefit or for my particular selfish aims.
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That's that's what the Lord is is prohibiting.
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And also you have to remember that the time of those
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prohibitions from the old covenant is the Lord is
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gradually leading his people out of real paganism, the the the
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worship of demons and idols and a kind of misunderstanding about
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where the dead feature into that world.
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It's a it the Lord needs us to be far, far away from what is
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real paganism, you know, with all of its cultural trappings
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and all of its errors and all of its demons.
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And so so that he's that that beautiful, gradual pulling of
18:07
his people out of that ancient Pagan, demonic world and into
18:12
the possibility for the incarnation and the light of the
18:16
gospel. And so those prohibitions are
18:19
feature part into part of that drawing of his people out of
18:22
darkness into light. So the prohibition biblically
18:26
isn't against asking for the prayers of the dead or praying
18:28
for the dead. Instead, it's against seeking
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answers from the dead as if it's an Oracle or some special spirit
18:35
that will help you with your life.
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That's. Exactly right.
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Telling you what to do. That's exactly right, which is
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also why in the current day and age, that whole world of
18:43
consulting A psychic, that's necromancy.
18:46
I mean, that's what that is. So then what is the biblical
18:51
evidence? Is there any biblical evidence
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you know, stories in the Bible or passages that show prayer for
18:58
the dead or prayer asking the prayer of the dead?
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I would invite everybody to read the second book of Maccabees.
19:03
So sadly in the in those awful days of the division of the
19:10
Christian Church in the 16th century, the Protestant
19:13
Reformation, that that period there was an attempt.
19:18
And of course, I'm giving a very Catholic reading of that
19:20
history, as you would understand.
19:23
And I. Hope your friends would
19:24
understand that to you that all of those what were then
19:29
understood to be scriptural canonical books of the
19:31
scriptures, including the letter of James and also the letters to
19:35
the Maccabees which some Christian Bibles, non Catholic
19:38
Christian Bibles now call Apocrypha.
19:41
Those are the places where some of those most contested
19:45
doctrines are to be found in the in the case of the letter of
19:48
James is. That why they were they were
19:50
removed. That's why we would understand
19:52
that to be that's why they were removed, because there's
19:54
something here that the Protestant Reformers just don't
19:56
like theologically. So take out those books of the
19:58
Scriptures that don't conform to this, this Reformed theology.
20:04
And included in that would be the Second Book of Maccabees,
20:07
where it's very obvious that prayer for the dead is
20:09
efficacious. And that the Lord.
20:12
It's pleasing to the Lord, and it's part of the life of what
20:16
will become His church. So why were the Protestant
20:20
reformers against the teaching on prayer for the dead?
20:24
It's a really good question, Lila.
20:26
The I would say the root of all of the thelod, the deepest
20:33
theological divisions from that period are philosophical in
20:38
nature first. So in this case, the the
20:42
Reformed theology in the the Protestant theology flows out of
20:46
a post enlightenment philosophical world where the
20:50
individual takes primacy that and and does this complicated
20:58
rejection of the material world outside of us as a sign of God's
21:01
goodness and the way that we come to know the truth by
21:04
looking at the things around us. You might remember Descartes
21:07
said famously, I think therefore I am somehow this turning into
21:14
the, the experience of the, the psychological, we might say,
21:18
experience of the individual from my own interiority as the
21:21
place from which I assess truth or falsehood.
21:25
That's a Copernican revolution in philosophy and it's erroneous
21:30
in many, many ways. Not in always, but in many ways
21:33
and so. What is Copernican revolution?
21:36
So just just in the same way, just in the same way that that
21:39
with Copernicus, the, the, the scientific revolution that the
21:43
Earth is the center of the universe and everything revolves
21:45
around it and, and versus the sun being the center of at least
21:49
our, our, our solar system and everything revolves around it.
21:52
That was a revolution in science.
21:55
So too in philosophy. There was that kind of radical
21:58
revolution that came with the primacy of the individual.
22:02
And there's a lot more to be said about that philosophically.
22:03
But not to belabor the point in philosophy, when I am the center
22:10
of my judgments about the truth of anything around me or within
22:14
me, which is what that philosophical error leads to,
22:19
then things get really murky as far as theological points,
22:24
metaphysical points, truths that depend upon the material
22:28
universe being the 1st place that we come to know what is
22:30
true and then have revelation to aid us in that and to assist us
22:34
with those truths that we can't know by natural reason alone.
22:36
So that's a long way of answering your question.
22:40
Probably not a very clear way of answering your question, but
22:42
there's some serious philosophical error at the root
22:45
of what became the errors of Protestantism.
22:49
So was it a combination then of the gripes, and some of them
22:52
understandable gripes, about corrupt church leaders in the
22:57
Catholic Church? And so there was a lack of trust
23:00
in the leadership of the church connected with this
23:03
philosophical movement of I am the center of the universe in
23:06
terms of deciding morality or objectivity around me and
23:09
understanding, you know, what is right and what is wrong.
23:12
And that combination led to, perhaps, the Reformation.
23:16
Yes that's a that's AI think a fairway of bringing all of those
23:20
threats together that contributed to this disaster and
23:23
it really was a disaster. It is a disaster.
23:25
You know our Lord wants it to be 1.
23:27
He prayed for that at the the night before he died.
23:30
You know, father, they might be 1 is I am in you and you are in
23:33
me that they might be one in US. You know, and we're still
23:35
waiting for that right. I'm praying for that yes there
23:40
when you look at the scandal of Christian believers who don't
23:44
live their life well or with the integrity that is required of
23:49
us, including church leaders, including priests and bishops
23:54
and even Pope's through history where there's real scandal in
23:58
the way that they represent the Catholic Christian life.
24:01
Then of course that's going to cause people to say how can I
24:04
trust you? It's a, it's a real, it's a
24:07
problem for each of us, isn't it, that when my life and my
24:10
words don't conform with what I proclaim to believe what I
24:15
profess, then that might be a scandal to someone who says,
24:19
well, why should I believe what you believe?
24:22
Look at how you live your life. So that's part of the call to
24:25
holiness, right? That we, we, we need our lives
24:28
to, with Christ's help and with the grace that comes from
24:31
Almighty God, live our lives in conformity with these truths.
24:35
And you're right, there were periods in, in the history of
24:38
the of the church where that wasn't.
24:41
So there wasn't always that kind of integrity.
24:44
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25:35
You know, one of the I as I understand Martin Luther's
25:38
particular grievances, you know, one of the, you know, the lead
25:41
reformers at the time who ended up rejecting I I understand
25:44
there was a lot of work to try to reconcile with Martin Luther,
25:47
like let's figure this out and reform the Catholic Church don't
25:50
separate from the church, but he ended up going his own way.
25:54
But one of his concerns was indulgences.
25:58
It was this idea back to trick or treat of saying if you give
26:03
me something, you know I will get a prayer or I will say a
26:08
prayer. It's kind of trading of graces,
26:12
trading for prayers, trading for graces.
26:15
Yeah, So that you're right, that's historically the the
26:18
doctrine of indulgences was one of the grievances that that
26:23
eventually drove poor Martin Luther out of the church.
26:25
At least he says that that was one of them.
26:28
And again, just because there are some abuses of the
26:34
discipline surrounding some of these truths, like the value of
26:37
indulgences or prayer for the dead, just because that was
26:40
abused in some places or times doesn't mean that the doctrine
26:45
isn't true. And so he threw the baby out
26:47
with the bathwater, But there's, there's still a baby and who
26:51
needs to be in the bathwater? There's still a baby there.
26:53
And that is the the doctrine of the prayers for the dead and the
26:55
value of indulgences. So the church still teaches
26:57
this, just like in the second book of Maccabees, where prayers
27:03
for the dead can help them can help the dead and it's a gift
27:08
for the the whole body of believers.
27:12
So to the church now believes that we can exchange the
27:16
spiritual goods with one another and help one another, all
27:20
because the whole treasure House of merit is stored up in the
27:25
hands of the church that Christ himself established when our
27:29
Lord said to Saint Peter, whatever you bind on earth will
27:31
be bound in heaven or whatever you loose on earth will be
27:33
loosed in heaven. In Saint Matthew's Gospel,
27:36
there's so much that goes along with that, not just about the
27:38
forgiveness of sins and the Sacramento order that touches on
27:41
confession, but also with this wonderful treasury, the
27:44
storehouse of grace that's in the hands of the Church of
27:48
Christ here on earth And in the, in the, in the, the, the hands,
27:54
as it were, of that institution which Christ established, that
27:57
is the Catholic Church. So we can, we can exchange the
28:03
spiritual goods with one another.
28:05
And so a Catholic believer can ask for a Mass to be offered for
28:11
the soul of their loved one who just died.
28:14
And the value, the merit, the grace that comes along with that
28:18
offering of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we believe the
28:21
Church can determine, can be applied to that soul.
28:25
That's what indulgences are. It's this wonderful exchange of
28:29
the spiritual goods and about helping those who still have
28:33
some penalties to pay. We call them the the the
28:37
temporal punishment due to sin. This is again, we're deep and
28:41
we're deep in the in the tall grass of Catholic theology here.
28:44
That's. Good.
28:45
These are where the disagreements, that's where.
28:47
It happens, that's right, that that that we can help alleviate
28:50
the temporal punishment due to sin in another member of the
28:53
body of Christ who is still paying that off in purgatory.
28:58
OK, there's a lot to unpack there.
28:59
So and I just want to get to the, to the dressing up as
29:02
goblins for Halloween. You know, should you dress up as
29:05
a goblin? We're going to be asking you
29:07
that soon. But you're on purgatory right
29:10
now and you just said something you said they're they're they're
29:14
paying the temporal price punishment due to sin due to
29:18
sin. And you can help other people
29:20
pay that price, break that down because if I'm, you know, I, as
29:24
you know, I was raised evangelical Protestant about
29:27
many friends and the understanding there is Jesus
29:29
Christ blood is covers us all. And I know you agree with that,
29:32
but we don't need to, you know, do any work, especially after
29:37
death. Goodness, you know, life is hard
29:39
enough, but to earn that salvation, Jesus Christ, death
29:43
on the cross is more than enough.
29:46
And the idea that we have to do work after death or that other
29:48
people have to do work for us after death, you know, I think
29:52
it's against that sensibility of this is not what we understand
29:55
the Bible to teach on the power of Jesus, death and death.
29:59
His his, his victory over sin and death is all sufficient and
30:03
complete in the shedding of his butt on the cross.
30:05
That's absolutely true that that every, every single Oz.
30:12
If you could measure it out like that of salvation and the
30:16
payment of the penalties due to our sin, the eternal payments
30:20
due to the eternal punishment due to our sin is paid by Christ
30:25
on the cross. Absolutely.
30:26
That's without doubt true there. Let me let me think of an
30:33
example to see if I can help everybody to understand this a
30:36
little bit. If I'm playing baseball in my
30:39
backyard and I hit a ball through my neighbor's window, I
30:45
break the window. I go next doors little boy, and
30:50
I ask the forgiveness of the neighbor whose window I just
30:52
broke. And he says, of course I forgive
30:54
you. It's an accident.
30:55
You know what happens. Nevertheless, someone has to pay
30:58
to replace the window. So I'm going to go mow his lawn
31:01
for the rest of the summer, whatever it is, right?
31:03
And I mow the lawn and then he's like, OK, good.
31:05
You paid off the penalty due to that infraction against this
31:09
this world of justice. You just so you paid back that
31:12
penalty even though I already forgave you.
31:15
There's something like that That's a all analogies limp, but
31:19
that's you know when when I commit when we commit grave sin
31:24
that offends Almighty God after our baptism, after we've been
31:27
saved washed in the blood of the Lamb.
31:29
Of course we ask for forgiveness and Christ forgives us.
31:33
That's the beauty of the Sacramento or of the church as
31:35
well. We even have a sacrament that
31:37
makes us know, helps us to know that that happened or restored
31:40
to sanctifying grace. But there is the window still
31:44
broken. And my prayers, my sacrifices,
31:49
the sufferings that come along with this human life, eventually
31:52
the old age and infirmity, all of that is what pays off, the
31:57
replacement of the window. But what if my brother said, you
32:03
know what? You've got other things to do
32:06
this summer. You can't mow the lawn.
32:07
I'll mow the lawn for you. He mows the lawn.
32:11
He pays back the actual material cost of the window.
32:15
So too, we Christians can do that.
32:16
You know what, You're a busy wife and mother.
32:19
You have a family. How about somebody else in the
32:23
communion of Christ in the body of Christ?
32:25
How about I, I fast on Friday for your intentions and my
32:29
fasting is helping. You know something like that.
32:32
You know that there's this exchange of spiritual goods.
32:34
So because maybe you don't have the wherewithal or I don't have
32:37
the wherewithal to do whatever that is, we, we exchange these
32:40
spiritual goods. We are united in the body of
32:42
Christ and purgatory is everything about that, about
32:46
that exchange of spiritual goods.
32:47
And indulgences are also that, that the ebb and flow of this
32:52
treasure throughout the whole mystical body.
32:54
It's a beautiful thing. And, and to throw that baby out
32:57
with the bathwater, I think we lose a lot.
32:59
I think that there's a lot that's lost, Like I think
33:03
there's a lot that's lost in all of those errors, theological
33:07
errors of that period. And someone might say, well,
33:10
Jesus can pay for the window. He's the richest, you know, he
33:13
has all the money in the world. He can, he can, you know, make
33:17
that window put be put back in an instant.
33:19
But in this life, as we see, the window still is broken.
33:22
There are still natural consequences to sin.
33:25
And I, I, I find that when I, when I help someone else with
33:29
their consequence or I have to pay my own, even though Jesus
33:32
forgives me, you know, I find that I learn, I grow, I can
33:37
become more virtuous that way. So in a sense, the consequence
33:41
is a gift. Yes, and in a way this touches
33:44
on that philosophical point, the complicated philosophical,
33:46
philosophical underpinning of the Protestant Catholic divide.
33:52
You're touching on something that relates to that.
33:55
Christ and God the Father. They love to use what we call
33:58
instrumental causes so that you can be the instrumental cause by
34:05
participating in this exchange of spiritual goods.
34:07
As you said, that's a gift for you to be able to help your
34:11
brother or sister in Christ, right?
34:13
He, he, he loves to use. Sure, God could fix the window,
34:20
but he loves the fact that I get to mow the lawn and help fix the
34:25
window because there's something so Sacramento about that
34:28
material about that incarnational about that.
34:31
And really, that's where that divide becomes most pronounced,
34:35
that Catholics and Orthodox, the ancient Apostolic Christians
34:39
understand the incarnation to have touched every facet of this
34:42
life here below. We're not just trapped in our
34:44
heads. We're not just thinking people
34:46
trapped in our heads, but but you know, again, using that
34:52
limping analogy, my brother mowing the lawns that I don't
34:55
have to do it and that pays for the window is somehow so much
34:58
more, so much more beautifully sharing and God's goodness as he
35:03
pours that out to his children than if God were just to fix the
35:06
window miraculously without my brother mowing the lawn or my
35:10
needing to mow the lawn to pay for it.
35:13
That's so beautiful. So one more question on
35:15
purgatory before we move on to our ghost topic and trick or
35:18
treating. So if I there's obviously the
35:23
teaching in of our Lord in the Bible about how he is the one
35:27
mediator ultimately, and he is the, he is the, you know, he is
35:32
the path to salvation, Jesus Christ.
35:34
And so this is obviously to the concern about praying to Mary,
35:37
praying to Saints, praying to the dead.
35:39
I want to ask it one more time because I, I do think it's, it's
35:42
a hard thing if you aren't, It's not, it's a cultural shock.
35:46
You know, I don't grow up this way.
35:48
And I know for me, I didn't grow up this way with prayers.
35:50
You can pray for the dead. They can pray for you.
35:52
You can ask Blessed Mother for her prayers.
35:54
I mean, not all of it as a Protestant girl for me was like
35:56
this. I got, I got to get to the
35:58
bottom of this. And once I really studied it, I
36:02
was persuaded. But you know that one of the
36:04
objections is intercessors, you know?
36:07
Yes, you can ask me to pray for you.
36:09
I can pray for you in this life, but ultimately Jesus Christ is
36:13
the intercessor, yes. Absolutely.
36:16
He is the one mediator between God and man, the God man, Jesus
36:18
Christ. Christ is the mediator.
36:21
Everything flows through him. He is the center of all things
36:24
and in Him all things came to be right again.
36:28
This is about that beautiful instrumental causality that God
36:32
loves to use amongst His created universe, that that power of
36:39
intercessory prayer, the power of the intercession of the
36:41
Saints, is about that instrumental causes.
36:46
So Christ is the Mediator and our Blessed Mother leads us to
36:51
Him. She prays for us on our way to
36:53
Him. She is the Saint.
36:56
Bernard beautifully says that Christ is the fountain of the
37:00
life giving waters, and Our Lady is the aqueduct through which He
37:04
comes. So there are these wonderful
37:07
channels of all of that mediated grace mediated by the power of
37:10
the sacrifice of Christ. And those channels are each
37:14
other. We are the channels, one for
37:16
another of the grace that comes from the mediating power of
37:19
Jesus Christ through our Blessed Mother, through the Saints in
37:22
heaven, through each other here on earth to the Saints who are
37:26
members of the Church below. And again, you see how that's a
37:30
philosophical problem, that if you understand how that
37:34
instrumental causality that is God loving to affect the things
37:37
in his creation through the instruments whom he has created,
37:42
makes all of those theological truths shine with their
37:46
brightness. So.
37:49
So you said earlier on trick or treating that yes, it's actually
37:53
ultimately a Catholic tradition that yes, of course trick or
37:56
treating is good. And I think maybe the person
37:58
you're going to their home, they're not thinking, oh, I'm
38:00
going to give you a candy so you can pray for my dead.
38:02
I wish they would but but it's a it's a practice that us
38:05
Christians can do as we trick or treat is pray for the dead of
38:08
the homes of the families that we meet.
38:10
Yes. And and pray for the and pray
38:12
for the people who are living in those homes.
38:13
Too, you know it's. Like an opportunity for
38:15
Christian witness. Yes.
38:16
So, you know, so is it right then, you know, today the
38:20
Halloween thing has gone crazy. There's obviously the scantily
38:24
clad crazy Co Ed type outfits on college campuses.
38:27
There's that. But then there's also the for
38:30
your little kids. You can dress up as a, as a, you
38:34
know, obviously a ghost. You can dress up as a witch, you
38:36
can dress like, there's devil outfits for like babies,
38:39
basically. What do we think about that?
38:42
OK. So.
38:43
It makes me uncomfortable. OK, so you're, you're
38:45
uncomfortable with a lot of things there.
38:47
I think Lily, you're uncomfortable with the fact that
38:49
once again our post Christian secular culture has Co opted one
38:53
of our Christian things, our Catholic Christian festivals and
38:57
made it completely materialistic, sensual over over
39:03
materialized farce once again, like Valentine's Day, like
39:07
Christmas is quickly careening toward that also.
39:11
I do love Sweet Tarts, so there's some things that's like
39:14
that. Material things.
39:15
Some of the material things are cute, but with Halloween a lot
39:18
of it's not cute. That's right.
39:19
And so I don't think that we Catholic Christians or
39:21
Christians in general, I don't think we should cave to the fat.
39:26
We shouldn't just let this go and say because they've ruined
39:29
it, we're not going to have anything to do with it.
39:31
I think that we can try to reclaim the culture, at least in
39:33
our own families and maybe in our church or parish communities
39:36
by saying we're going to restore as much as we can the Christian
39:40
roots and the Christian flavor of these beautiful ancient
39:44
festivals. And so I would say this there
39:47
that don't let all of the weird demonic like scare value of the
39:55
of the things on the on the face of it, keep you from
39:58
appreciating the depth of what can actually happen in the in
40:01
these wonderful high holy days of our Christian liturgical
40:04
year. By the way, the whole thing
40:07
about masquerading and even dressing up as demons and and
40:11
ghouls and friends, that's also there's a place for that in in
40:15
ancient Christian life and medieval Christian life.
40:17
Unfortunately, we don't live in a culture that makes sense of
40:19
that. But if Christ is victorious over
40:22
sin and death, then the demons are conquered.
40:27
And medieval Christians in different parts of, of
40:30
especially Western European Catholicism said that this is
40:33
the perfect opportunity for us to thumb our noses at them.
40:37
You dress up like a ghost or a goblin and you say, you see, you
40:40
have no, you've got nothing on us because Christ is victorious
40:43
over you. We're going to celebrate
40:44
tomorrow the Saints in heaven. And on the next day, November
40:48
2nd, we're going to pray for our beloved dead.
40:50
And. You can't do anything about it.
40:53
It's mocking them. It's mocking them in, in the way
40:56
that a Catholic culture can make sense of it.
40:59
There's still places where this happens not only on Halloween.
41:01
So in, in parts of Bavaria before Lent begins, that the
41:07
culture has people dress up in kind of ghoulish masks and, and,
41:10
and yeah, it's a masquerade with a parade and festivities and fun
41:15
like Mardi Gras in France or in New Orleans or in Brazil, all
41:19
those places that have that kind of French root, the French roots
41:23
that that happened at the beginning of Lent as a it's a
41:26
wonderful way to let our hair down and party with some of the
41:30
excesses of, of human life and fun in order to be able to pray
41:34
well, prepare well for the feast.
41:35
And part of that is mocking the devil who's who's, again,
41:38
figuratively, right. So the masquerading and the
41:41
costumes don't have to be weird or creepy.
41:45
Unfortunately, a secular culture doesn't understand any of that,
41:49
so I don't know how we get that part back.
41:51
Many, many fervent Catholic parishes have adopted customers.
41:56
Yeah, dress up in costumes. Kids love that.
41:58
Dress up as the Saints you know but.
42:00
You're saying it's OK to dress up as a witch or to put the
42:04
devil years on your baby? I.
42:05
Think No, I don't think so. I don't think you put on your
42:07
baby, but I think that you can make sense I.
42:10
Mean you can make. Sense even of that.
42:11
You can make sense even of that if you're in a cultural
42:14
atmosphere that makes sense of it.
42:17
Like, we are mocked together. We're mocking and we're
42:19
celebrating the victory of death of of life over death, of Christ
42:24
over death. Yes.
42:26
And so part of doing that is to dress up even as the goblins and
42:29
the gremlins and the ghouls, to say like, you have no power.
42:32
Yes, now I don't. I again, I wouldn't recommend
42:34
that necessarily for a family, you know.
42:36
Every Catholic listening is out. We're going to get our our ghoul
42:38
costume on now. Just kidding.
42:40
I. Think, like I said, you can make
42:41
sense of it culturally, but unfortunately we don't live in a
42:43
Catholic culture anymore. So you have to, you have to find
42:46
a way to, to make these things Incarnate and lived in family
42:50
life or in perish life or in church life in a way that's
42:52
going to make sense now. And a lot of that, as I said, is
42:54
about proclaiming the message of Jesus Christ in this particular
42:58
atmosphere. So it might not be a great idea
43:00
to put the, the devil horns on your little bee.
43:02
I think it'll be kind of silly anyway.
43:04
But like I said, having I, I remember as a kid, you know,
43:07
growing up in a, in a very ordinary Catholic parish and
43:10
Catholic atmosphere, it's not like that was Christendom, not
43:14
by any stretch of the imagination.
43:16
But you know, the Casper the Friendly ghost decorations and
43:20
the skeletons in the skulls. There was a context for that in
43:23
my family and in my parish. We understood what that meant.
43:25
It wasn't scary for the kids. And it's also because we
43:29
understood that to be referring both to the mockery of, of the
43:34
conquered foe and also about the fact that death is on our mind.
43:39
Death is on our mind in these days, and that's a good thing
43:42
for Christians to think about. And to remember the dead.
43:45
Memento Mori, remember the dead, remember the dead, remember your
43:49
death. And so that the the the talk of
43:53
death and the decorations and things that make us remember
43:56
death, even those have a very important place in the Christian
44:01
life. You're going to die.
44:03
Are you ready for it? What about the people who have
44:05
died? Were they ready for it?
44:07
And so surrounding ourselves with those things, I would
44:10
recommend, and you haven't asked about this yet, but I think
44:13
especially for Catholic Christians, for Catholics, take
44:15
your children to the cemetery and pray for your beloved dead.
44:18
It's a beautiful custom and death should not be scary.
44:22
It's a part of life. And it's OK to welcome children
44:26
into in an appropriate way, in an age appropriate way, helping
44:29
them to understand that death is a part of their life too, a
44:32
family life. I think that it's really sad
44:35
that Catholics don't go to the cemeteries anymore.
44:37
The Church thinks it's so important that she blesses that
44:39
with an indulgence, visiting the cemetery in the Octave of All
44:45
Saints Day and. What does that mean?
44:47
What When you say indulgence, what do you get?
44:49
So go to the. Cemetery to pray for the dead,
44:52
Yes. And there the Catholics can can
44:54
look this up online about how to how to find the, you know, what
44:58
all of that means. If you don't know what that
44:59
means. And there are many places you
45:02
can find out what all that means.
45:03
Basically, it's an indulgence to act.
45:04
Praying for the dead is a valuable and important thing.
45:06
And you can gain what we call a plenary indulgence for to be
45:11
applied to the souls of the faithful departed by visiting a
45:14
cemetery and praying for the dead.
45:15
And there's again, that's I'm oversimplifying that, but so
45:20
your Protestant friends are, their heads might spin, but
45:23
that's OK. There's so much beauty, beauty
45:25
to what you're saying, though, and you know, odds over the
45:27
years, I've come to understand it and live in it.
45:29
And again, I think culture clashes, I think as significant
45:33
as a philosophical question or disagreement, because if you
45:37
don't grow up with it culturally, it can feel very
45:40
strange. Pray for the dead, you know,
45:42
Now, most people do visit the cemetery, at least to remember.
45:46
But to to remember and to pray is the call for for Catholics
45:49
and unorthodox and I believe for all Christians.
45:52
I believe too so. So now what about ghosts?
45:55
What are ghosts? Are they real?
45:59
Not just should you dress up as one or not, but do we, you know,
46:03
if there are some actual, I know it's an exorcist, you know,
46:05
there's demons are real, angels are real.
46:08
But I've heard stories of people that really believe there was a
46:11
ghost that they encountered or that they were scared of.
46:16
So I think that the the Catholic perspective on this and also the
46:20
perspective of, I would say the vast majority of exorcists on
46:23
this would be that most of the time those kind of supernatural
46:26
experiences are attributed to one of two things.
46:31
Either some demonic presence that's manifesting itself in
46:35
that way, or, and this is a different kind of manifestation
46:40
of that the souls of the faithful departed asking for
46:43
prayers in some kind of manifest way.
46:47
That's a little bit complicated and a little that might be too
46:51
far afield for this conversation, but the so those
46:55
two things. So if you, if you, there could
46:58
be a soul that's not getting prayers and he might come
47:02
knocking. Yes, correct.
47:04
Like knock knocking. Correct.
47:07
That's that there, that, that is a possibility.
47:09
And I could tell a beautiful, fun little story from the
47:13
Orthodox world about that which was reported to me.
47:15
So this is about, you know, this is a story that comes at third
47:17
or fourth hand now. But the, the priest who was a
47:22
drunkard and he, he was struggling in his priestly life
47:27
as an Orthodox priest to maintain kind of the integrity
47:31
of his own Christian life. And but he was repentant and he
47:34
was a struggler and he was a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful
47:37
struggler. And he could celebrate the
47:41
prayers in the Orthodox Church for the faithful departed.
47:43
That's what he was doing, offering the, the Divine Liturgy
47:45
for that intention. That's pretty much all he did.
47:48
And his Bishop was really irritated with his drunkenness
47:53
and how that was a public scandal and so forth.
47:55
And so he, he wanted to remove the ability of this priest to
47:59
say those prayers and to offer those liturgies.
48:01
And the the Bishop was awakened one night by this crowd of
48:07
ghosts, that is souls of the souls of the faith departed who
48:10
were chastising him in the night.
48:12
Don't remove this priests faculties to be able to offer
48:15
these prayers because we need them.
48:17
And even though he's a drunkard, at least he's praying for us,
48:21
you know, So, so that's a just a fun little story about about
48:25
about how that the world between the beyond that veil, that
48:29
liminal veil between this world and the next is sometimes a is
48:32
sometimes perforated and we have communication across it.
48:36
And that's a beautiful and mysterious thing, so.
48:39
A non demonic ghost is not a scary thing at all.
48:43
It's a it's a soul that really just needs a prayer.
48:46
That's right. It's a bit of an over
48:49
oversimplification, but yes, in a nutshell, that's right.
48:52
And if you are, so I've had dreams in the past as an example
48:55
or felt, felt strong, a strong impulse to pray for someone who
48:59
had passed that I had not thought of in years or who I
49:03
didn't have any kind of close connection to.
49:06
And dreams where this person would be in my dream.
49:08
And the sense of it was they were asking for something from
49:11
me. And so in that case, and I've
49:13
heard other people express similar things, it's a it's
49:16
prayer that they're seeking. I think so.
49:18
And why wouldn't, why wouldn't God allow that communication to
49:21
happen in our dream life? Again, it's difficult for us to
49:24
interpret those things in some kind of a country.
49:26
It's not like a, it's not like a checklist that you can check off
49:29
all of the factors and say, oh, that was definitely this person
49:31
asking for prayers, but why not? And I would say that if you were
49:35
inspired to pray and you did, there's nothing bad about that.
49:39
But and that's nothing but good about that.
49:42
And that can't come from the evil 1 because he doesn't want
49:44
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All right, so for those listening that want to celebrate
50:34
that already are celebrating, you already mentioned the beauty
50:38
and the grace of going to pray and at a cemetery with your
50:41
family and your children for the dead trick or treating is OK.
50:45
It's got the got the thumbs up, but pray for those in the home
50:47
and pray for the dead of the home as you do that.
50:50
What are some other things that Christians can do during this
50:53
these those upcoming holy days, upcoming.
50:55
Holy days, I think the trick or treating thing, you know, I've
50:59
heard all kinds of fun and creative solutions to this.
51:02
A neighborhood that you know, is safe, a neighborhood that you
51:04
know, might be not quite so marked by all of those awful,
51:09
you know, skeletons in the yard and so forth of the, the really
51:11
over materialized thing. There's the trunk or treating
51:14
that seems that I don't know if you've heard about that, you
51:16
know, in the parish, in the parish parking lot or something.
51:20
A little bit more of a controlled environment.
51:22
I think that especially for Catholic Christians, encouraging
51:25
the people in your parish to put together a little party for the
51:27
kids. Why not let them dress up, dress
51:31
up as the Saints, you know, maybe have a parade, you know,
51:34
all of that kind of making our faith tangible and fun and
51:39
culturally rich. That's a great thing to do.
51:42
That's all Halloween related, the eve, the eve of All Saints,
51:46
All Saints Day, go to Holy Mass. It's a holy day of obligation.
51:49
Celebrate the fact that we have this cloud of witnesses
51:52
surrounding us who are praying for us, all of our friends in
51:58
heaven who have arrived at the heavenly homeland.
52:01
That's what All Saints Day is about.
52:03
And when the Saints go marching in, as it were, you know,
52:05
celebrating that triumph of Christ's victory in their lives,
52:11
there are far more, far more members of the Church in heaven
52:16
than there are on earth. You think so?
52:19
Absolutely. That's encouraging.
52:20
You think? Of all the people who are live,
52:22
I. Think so too, but.
52:23
Absolutely. How many are we're the?
52:25
Minority how? Many are not in heaven.
52:27
How do we know? Do we have any sense?
52:28
We don't. Have any?
52:29
We don't. We can't know that.
52:30
No, we. Just because there have been
52:32
billions of souls. Exactly, exactly.
52:34
We are the we are the minority and the majority are are of
52:38
members of the church. Are the deceased members of the
52:41
church if? Someone died in 300 AD?
52:45
Yes. Is are they for sure through
52:48
purgatory by now? I sure hope so, Vila.
52:51
That's a question about time. And I don't know those.
52:53
These are these are things I can't know.
52:55
We can't know. You know, how long is a soul in
52:57
purgatory? What does that mean?
52:59
And of course time is the measurement of change according
53:02
to before and after and that's what time is.
53:05
And so before and after is those are those are important factors
53:08
and how we reckon time so do. Most people go to purgatory.
53:11
Would you say I? Will.
53:12
Well, OK, so. They need a purgation process to
53:16
complete their notification. That nothing impure enters
53:19
heaven. That who is in heaven right now?
53:23
The God obviously, and all of the angels and all of the
53:29
Saints. Who else is in heaven?
53:32
Is, is Grandma in heaven? Well, was she a St.
53:36
Demonstrably a St. before she died?
53:38
Then yes, maybe. The Church probably won't.
53:40
Certainly the Church can't canonize everybody who's in
53:43
heaven right now. If someone is not a St. that is
53:48
purified, ready to see, to behold the face of Christ, free
53:51
from all stain of sin and all the temporal punishment due to
53:53
their sin, then they're going to be in purgatory.
53:57
I think I I might have mentioned this last time we talked, but
54:01
the ordinary path for every Catholic Christian, for every
54:04
Christian, is that we cooperate with God's grace.
54:06
We're saved, obviously, washed in the blood of the Lamb,
54:09
baptized, cooperate with God's grace so that we become Saints
54:12
on earth before we die. That's the ordinary path.
54:16
So there's no if we. Don't put up.
54:18
That's not that. It's it's not.
54:19
The ideal situation would be that we're sanctified because of
54:23
all the many, many gifts that our Lord gives us in order to
54:26
become his closest friends, to become Saints.
54:30
Whether or not that happens has everything to do with us.
54:33
I've heard that it's much harder to.
54:36
Be purified in purgatory than on Earth, because we can't, because
54:39
the souls in purgatory we call them the.
54:41
The poor souls in Catholic lingo are the holy souls.
54:43
They can't do anything for themselves because they don't
54:46
have their bodies with them. They're waiting the resurrection
54:48
of the body. Their their time of, of merit is
54:55
over death brings an end to the possibility to to grow closer to
55:00
the Lord in that way. And so they can do nothing for
55:04
themselves, which is why it's so important to pray for them.
55:06
They're the neediest souls in the middle body of Christ.
55:10
They are the poorest of the poor.
55:12
Our prayers are the only things that can help end masses for
55:16
Catholics hath masses said for the dead.
55:19
That's what helps speed their purification and they are, they
55:23
are so grateful. Imagine if we have all of these
55:26
intercessors in heaven now, the Saint Augustine's and the Saint
55:28
Monica's and the Saint Norbert's and our Blessed Mother.
55:32
Imagine the souls that arrived at heaven because of our prayers
55:36
helped helping their purification.
55:37
How they will be our friends interceding for us so so in the
55:42
process of sanctification on. This earth to avoid purgatory
55:46
and I, I, I, I think you weren't though I know I'm, I'm going a
55:49
direction here about Saints, but were there something else you
55:51
wanted to say about ways we can celebrate All Saints and All
55:54
Souls? And then I want to finish this
55:57
out with the topic of Saints, the positive topic.
56:00
So I I mentioned, you know, the the the.
56:03
Trappings and the fun and the festivity and the tomfoolery
56:06
around the Vigil of All Saints. That's a very Catholic thing,
56:10
carving pumpkins and lighting candles and all of that.
56:13
Where did the carving of the pumpkin come?
56:14
And that has to do with the. With the visiting of the.
56:17
Cemeteries preparing to visit the cemeteries the next day and
56:19
mocking the demons and carrying candles and and all of that,
56:23
that that those are all the cultural features that go along
56:25
with that. Those customs are preparing to
56:27
go to the cemetery and then going to the cemetery that's all
56:30
around that. So All Saints Day, go to Holy
56:34
Mass, celebrate with your family, celebrate with your
56:37
parish community and and then beginning on All Saints Day, but
56:41
certainly on All Souls Day, visit the cemetery, pray for the
56:44
dead that you can do that for a whole octave and through the
56:46
month of NN is the month of the dead.
56:49
So those are all suggestions about how to sprinkle holy water
56:52
on the graves of your of your of your loved ones.
56:55
And priests do that. We go and bless the the
56:57
cemeteries in on All Souls Day. Those are suggestions about how
57:02
to celebrate. And then you asked the Saints
57:04
so, and there's a few things here.
57:06
And then we'll, and then I'll let you go because I know you're
57:08
on to, on to the next thing. But on the topic of Saints, and
57:11
you know, the process of sanctification in this life.
57:14
And you said earlier, the goal is to go straight to heaven.
57:17
The goal is to be sanctified in this life, to allow yourself to
57:21
be sanctified by the graces of of God and, and all the graces
57:24
that he gives us through all the different means that he gives us
57:27
grace. But some of us end up in
57:29
purgatory. What's the and you said there's
57:33
a lot of Saints, though, in heaven.
57:34
You think that there's many more than there are on earth.
57:39
Is there anything more you can share?
57:40
I know there's different Saints over the years that have had
57:42
revelations about how there's actually a ton of people in hell
57:45
and you know, the concerns about people that just blow off this
57:48
opportunity in this life. And if you get to purgatory, it
57:51
is a lot harder than this earth. You said they're suffering souls
57:53
and that's because on this earth you say you have your you have
57:56
your body, but there's additional physical, I mean, I
57:59
don't know if it's physical, but certainly spiritual pain that
58:01
they're feeling in purgatory. What more can we know about the
58:05
process of Saint making? OK, so it.
58:10
Definitely makes me convicted because it's like I've got this.
58:12
One day I know I have. I might die tomorrow so better
58:16
make it count. Yes, I agree and I think that's
58:18
the point about. All of that thinking about well,
58:21
how many souls are damned and how many souls are saved it
58:25
that's a scary thing to think about, but it's motivating we we
58:29
learn from the Book of Revelation that our Lord doesn't
58:33
want us to be lukewarm. The lukewarm he spits out of his
58:36
mouth. He'd rather we be hot or cold,
58:39
right? We want to be hot with the fire
58:42
of charity, don't we? We want to be on fire with love
58:46
for Jesus Christ. And if we think that that it's
58:51
not an automatic thing that everybody just because because
58:55
they call themselves a Christian, means that they're
58:57
going to be saved and sanctified and in heaven.
59:01
If that's at least a possibility that you know what this is about
59:05
the integrity of my Christian life and allowing my life to be
59:09
transformed into a living icon of my Savior, Jesus Christ,
59:13
vessel of the Holy Trinity, filled with sanctifying grace, a
59:17
member of his mystical body, all of those beautiful things that
59:20
are true because of the life of grace, then that means I'm not
59:24
going to compromise with this world or I'm not going to allow
59:27
myself to settle into a kind of lukewarmness, right?
59:32
So it's motivating and I, I, I back away from, well, how many
59:37
is it damned? How many is it saved?
59:40
How many is it in purgatory? I think we need to we need to
59:43
think about that more as what does that inspire me to do with
59:46
my Christian life today. As you said, this might be your
59:48
last day on earth. I pray to God it's not you have
59:51
too much good work to do, but we don't know when God is going to
59:55
call us home. I would say.
59:56
So the process of sanctification then I just wanted one thing
59:58
that occurs to me about that is that embracing.
1:00:02
All of the the sacrifices and suffering that come with our
1:00:05
state in life, you as a wife and a mother, me as a consecrated
1:00:08
religious and a priest, everybody out there, all of our
1:00:11
friends out there, your life carries with it a lot of
1:00:14
purification. If we embrace that and offer it,
1:00:18
offer it back to our Lord and say, Lord, help this.
1:00:21
Let me let this suffering sanctify me and purify how to
1:00:25
purify the souls in purgatory that offer it up in Catholic
1:00:28
life. We, we for those of us who are
1:00:30
raised in Catholic households, our mothers always told us when
1:00:34
you're, you know, you stub your toe or you're or you're feeling
1:00:36
ill or you're feeling under the weather, whatever, offer it up,
1:00:40
offer it up. OfferUp that suffering as a
1:00:42
pleasing sacrifice to God for your own sanctification and for
1:00:45
the suffer the sucker, the sucker of the souls in
1:00:47
purgatory. So and so if there's, you know,
1:00:50
when we pray for all. Souls Day, and obviously we
1:00:52
celebrate All Saints Day. We don't know for sure, except
1:00:56
for the canonized Catholic Saints.
1:00:59
We don't know for sure who's where.
1:01:02
So in a way, we're kind of, there's a bit of a guessing in
1:01:06
terms of we're going to pray for the soul of this person, but
1:01:09
they might not, they might be in hell already.
1:01:12
Is that possible? It is possible.
1:01:14
Certainly it's. Possible that hell is.
1:01:15
A real possibility. And please God, none of us finds
1:01:19
him or herself there. Can you imagine?
1:01:21
No, you can't even imagine. The thing that covers me about
1:01:23
hell is we choose to go there. You've got to choose it.
1:01:27
Yes, we have to choose it. Deliberately.
1:01:29
Choose not. To be on the side of Christ in
1:01:31
his church. That's right.
1:01:34
I think I, I sometimes think that just to your, to your
1:01:37
question there about we, since we can't know except for those
1:01:40
Saints whom the Church has canonized and tells us these are
1:01:43
Saints who are worthy of our veneration and our intercept, we
1:01:47
can ask for their intercession. Liturgically speaking, they've
1:01:49
been elevated to the altars, as we say.
1:01:53
It's always as, especially as a Catholic priest, it makes me
1:01:56
very anxious when people at the funeral say, well, grandma's
1:01:59
already in heaven. We know for sure she's in
1:02:01
heaven. I'm like, well, how do you know
1:02:02
she's in heaven? What if she's in purgatory and
1:02:04
she needs your prayers? The point there is don't stop
1:02:06
praying for your beloved dead because you don't know where
1:02:09
they are. Just because we're good doesn't
1:02:12
mean that we're sanctified. So if he was a good man, she was
1:02:18
a good man. Oh, they were.
1:02:18
Nice if. Grandma or great grandma dies
1:02:21
and your young child. Asks you where are they?
1:02:25
Can you say they're in heaven? Or we hope they're in heaven?
1:02:29
I mean, we can say what? Certainly, Certainly we hope
1:02:31
they're in heaven. We say they are in.
1:02:32
The hands of Almighty God, they are in the hands of Jesus
1:02:35
Christ. They're, they're with Jesus in
1:02:38
the sense that they are with his plan for them.
1:02:40
And, and every soul who's in purgatory is going to be in
1:02:42
heaven when the time of purification is over.
1:02:45
So they are with God. That might mean that they are
1:02:47
still in purgatory undergoing their purification.
1:02:49
That might mean that they're rejoicing with the angels and
1:02:52
Saints on high. And I think you can tell your
1:02:54
children they are safely in God's hands.
1:02:56
If they died of good and holy death, they're safely in God's
1:02:59
hands. And we're going to keep praying
1:03:01
for them. There are deceased members of my
1:03:05
own religious community whom I love.
1:03:09
They're they're my brothers. They're my brothers in religion.
1:03:11
They're my brothers in the priesthood.
1:03:14
And I like to pray. There's one in particular I pray
1:03:19
to and four often, both 2:00 and 4:00, because I say I don't know
1:03:24
if you are in heaven or in purgatory.
1:03:26
If you're in purgatory, I'm praying for you right now and I
1:03:28
really hope you get there soon through my prayers and through
1:03:30
my sacrifices for you and so forth.
1:03:32
And if you're in heaven, please pray for me for this particular
1:03:35
intention. So I don't know.
1:03:38
The jury's out. We know for some and that's the
1:03:41
canonized. So what?
1:03:41
Who we celebrate on All Saints Day is the ones that we know
1:03:45
know you know they're canonized by the church That and we also
1:03:47
and we also sorry to interrupt Lila, we also.
1:03:50
Celebrate all of those who are not known to us.
1:03:52
So that is on All Saints that you're also celebrating for our
1:03:55
grandparents, great grandparents, all of those who
1:03:58
very likely could be in heaven, but we just don't know because
1:04:00
the Church hasn't canonized them.
1:04:01
So we're celebrating all the Saints in heaven, even those who
1:04:05
are unknown. Does that make sense?
1:04:07
Can it does make sense? Can you share a little bit about
1:04:09
this? Canonization process.
1:04:12
I've heard a lot of different things from different folks over
1:04:15
the years. You know, who's getting in the
1:04:16
weeds. But I think it's really valuable
1:04:18
because there's some that criticize the whole thing.
1:04:21
You know, how can you know? Or they say, of course, every
1:04:24
Christian who passes is in heaven automatically, so they
1:04:27
want to discount purgatory. But it's like, you know, are you
1:04:30
putting them on a pedestal? Why would you do that?
1:04:33
And then also, how do we know in the process of, of the church's
1:04:36
diligence, due diligence, that they actually are in heaven?
1:04:40
In addition, I'm going to ask you about the change in the
1:04:43
canonization process in the last few decades.
1:04:46
I think it was under Pope John Paul the second.
1:04:48
I think that's right. And I'm I'm not an expert in
1:04:50
those changes. But the in a nutshell, the the
1:04:53
Church elevates for the example of the whole body of Christ,
1:05:00
those individuals whom she wants to share, show them as models to
1:05:03
follow in some particular way. And usually those people, those
1:05:06
holy people who have what we call a liturgical cult.
1:05:10
That is, there are groups of people through the centuries who
1:05:13
have honored them in some kind of a public and important way.
1:05:16
So the early Saints before the 12th century, if I'm not
1:05:21
mistaken, they were usually those Saints who those people
1:05:26
who, whom the Church had lifted up in some kind of a concrete
1:05:29
way locally, you know, in a Diocese of North Africa or in
1:05:32
France, particular people where they were so obviously holy, The
1:05:36
church began to venerate them in this, in this kind of a way.
1:05:39
And then the church ratified that with liturgical cults.
1:05:42
And you can offer Mass in their honor.
1:05:44
You can say that the Divine Office in their honor, you can
1:05:46
pray to them. And with these prayers and the
1:05:48
church blesses all of that. And then then there's the
1:05:51
process that began that's a more kind of juridical process to
1:05:54
say, well, there's so the church has spread so far around the
1:05:57
whole world. How can we kind of regulate this
1:06:00
in a more systematic way? And that's the process for
1:06:03
canonization, which was then adopted by the church, which
1:06:06
involves examining their lives, the the virtues of their lives.
1:06:09
It involves the recognition of miracles that are favors that
1:06:15
are granted through their intercessory power.
1:06:17
And that's that's probably what you're talking about is
1:06:19
controversial, but but two miracles necessary identified by
1:06:24
the church and carefully studied.
1:06:25
So that is we're definitely in the tall grass here.
1:06:28
And they need scientific proof for them too, right?
1:06:30
They do these. Have to be miracles that are
1:06:33
physical or can they be spiritual healing?
1:06:35
Usually they're. Physical but.
1:06:37
Not, that's not. Exclusively necessary.
1:06:39
So that's a very complicated question, but yes, there there's
1:06:43
some astonishing miracles through the intercessory power
1:06:46
of the Saints. So should one want to be a
1:06:48
canonized St., I think we. Should all strive for holiness,
1:06:51
We should all strive to. Be Saints because that means
1:06:53
that we're just doing what what Christ and his Church has given
1:06:56
us the power to do, and that is to conform our lives to to
1:06:59
Christ. So that is no longer I live, but
1:07:02
Christ who lives within me. As Saint Paul says, we should
1:07:05
all desire that so ardently that all we want is to become Saints
1:07:10
and to be with with our Savior in heaven.
1:07:12
But I think about Saint Therese, you know, she had this.
1:07:15
This she's a little Carmelite sister who wanted so badly to be
1:07:20
a St. and she had very physical limitations and she dreamed of
1:07:23
these like, you know, incredible journeys to save souls and go in
1:07:27
every continent and do all these amazing things.
1:07:29
But she contented herself remembering that God made her as
1:07:32
she was and she in heaven could perhaps do the great feats of
1:07:36
soul supporting and and helping. Well, she was a St. in heaven,
1:07:41
but you kind of want to be known that you're a St. in heaven so
1:07:44
that you can people, you know, you can have a relation, that
1:07:47
relationship to encourage them in their life on earth.
1:07:50
And I and I also, you know, if you're a St. in heaven and
1:07:53
you're not canonized on earth yet, are you helping the people
1:07:56
Canon who's who are working on your canonization process?
1:07:59
I think that if you're, I think that we.
1:08:02
Should want God's will to be affected in our lives so
1:08:05
perfectly that if he desires that you Lila become a canonized
1:08:08
St. an example for the church that that that his will be done.
1:08:12
I don't think we should have a whole lot to say about that for
1:08:14
ourselves personally. I I would you know St.
1:08:17
Therese, she did say that she did she wants to spend her
1:08:19
heaven doing good on earth. She would be doing that whether
1:08:22
she were canonized or not. And I think all the Saints in
1:08:24
heaven, whether they're canonized or not, that is where
1:08:26
they're elevated by the church as an example like look to this
1:08:29
one, pray to this one. Ask this one for those favors so
1:08:33
we can do as a St. in heaven we can.
1:08:35
Do as much good on Earth regardless of our canonization,
1:08:38
that's not that's not going to affect necessarily our
1:08:41
relationship with other people. I I think that's true if we make
1:08:43
it all of these. Things.
1:08:45
All of these. Things are all up to.
1:08:47
God's good pleasure. He is the Lord of the universe.
1:08:51
He's the one who determines which individual people become
1:08:54
the canonized Saints that are elevated by the Church.
1:08:57
He determines the ones who are in heaven right now, unknown to
1:08:59
anybody, but whose intercessory power is making, keeping,
1:09:04
keeping the the earth going around the sun.
1:09:07
But I've noticed too, there's a lot of human will that he works.
1:09:09
Through of course, and he permits instrumental causality.
1:09:12
Instrumental causality in the Saint making.
1:09:13
Process. Yes.
1:09:15
And I've talked to some of these guys who are talking about, you
1:09:17
know, as an example, there's Mother Angelica, right, who's
1:09:20
not sainted yet. And there's these other, you
1:09:21
know, Archbishop Fulton Sheen, and there, you know, JK
1:09:25
Chesterton. And there's a lot of talk about,
1:09:27
you know, people have their favorite.
1:09:29
They really want them for multiple reasons to be
1:09:32
canonized. And then there's the little
1:09:34
known soul, you know, the father of seven 8-9 children who had a
1:09:38
very quiet life and you know, someone maybe has the
1:09:42
imagination to strike up his 'cause it's all in his
1:09:46
Providence. Of course it's.
1:09:47
All in his Providence. And he probably works through
1:09:49
people. 'S good.
1:09:51
And maybe not so good intentions along the way.
1:09:54
Absolutely, absolutely. You know that.
1:09:57
You just, I couldn't agree with you more that God's Providence
1:10:00
descends even to all of those individual circumstantial
1:10:04
decisions along the the process of canonization or the
1:10:08
publication of books or all of those things.
1:10:10
All of that is guided by God's marvelous providential care.
1:10:15
And we'll only see how that all works out once we get to heaven.
1:10:18
And we say, oh, now I understand why you use that person's desire
1:10:24
for whatever to make this canonization process go along
1:10:27
here and we'll see it all. That's going to be one of the
1:10:29
marvelous joys of heaven, to see all of the threads of the
1:10:33
tapestry, how they all work together, and it's.
1:10:38
Only how many Saints are canonized?
1:10:40
We don't have them. I don't even know.
1:10:41
That's a great question. Not much more than a. 1000 as I
1:10:44
no, I think it's, I think it's much.
1:10:45
More than 1000? Is it much more?
1:10:46
It's. Much more than 1000 it would.
1:10:47
Be many thousands, OK? We read in the martyrology of
1:10:50
the church in my monastery, the martyrs.
1:10:52
Yeah, so, so every. It's it's a long, long.
1:10:55
List beautiful, long, and if you're a martyr, you are go
1:10:58
right to heaven. Correct, that's correct that
1:11:01
that's. That's that's the, that's the,
1:11:03
the short, short cut, you know, the quick path, the tough, the
1:11:08
tough and quick one. OK.
1:11:09
Last question on Saints. You said, yeah, I don't
1:11:12
necessarily know all the details of what happened during this
1:11:14
time, but John Paul the Second did do some changes in the
1:11:17
canonization process. And my streamlined, my
1:11:19
understanding of it in part was to shorten the time before
1:11:21
someone can be canonized, meaning, you know, there was
1:11:25
maybe decades would pass or even hundreds of years before someone
1:11:29
would be canonized after their death.
1:11:30
And he was saying, no, it it can be less time.
1:11:32
So we have more modern Saints. And then he seemed to put an an
1:11:36
additional emphasis not on the religious being canonized, but
1:11:39
on lay people being canonized, including children, I mean,
1:11:43
teenagers, for example, recently that just a couple years ago.
1:11:48
Wonderful Italian young man whose whose body is in Assisi in
1:11:52
Italy in his hoodie with his with his soccer cleats on.
1:11:57
And I don't think they're cleats.
1:11:58
But is he incorrupt? He's also incorrupt.
1:12:00
That's. Another world.
1:12:02
So yeah, that means that his, his flesh is not decaying.
1:12:06
So that's a whole nother wonderful world that often makes
1:12:09
our Protestant friends heads spin.
1:12:11
But it's about the incarnational reality of the Christian life
1:12:15
that sometimes God, God preserves the body of the
1:12:18
deceased person on earth from the corruption of death.
1:12:21
Saint Bernadette, St. Blessed Carlo Cootie's Saint
1:12:24
Padre Pio, There are many there, there are many incorrupt Saints.
1:12:28
Their bodies are not rotting in the in the tomb, but you can go
1:12:30
and look at them and say, yeah, so the Catholic world is
1:12:33
beautiful. To your point there about the
1:12:35
there was an expedite expedition of the canonization process
1:12:38
precisely so that John Paul the Second Pope, St.
1:12:42
John Paul the Second, wanted to lift up some contemporary
1:12:44
witnesses for us to look to and including lay people.
1:12:48
It's not just for priests and consecrated religious, but
1:12:50
holiness is for everybody. Everybody is called to holiness.
1:12:54
Everyone's called to be a St., correct?
1:12:57
Wonderful. Well, Father, what are?
1:12:59
You doing? To celebrate the Holy days
1:13:01
coming up, Halloween and All Saints and All Souls Day for us
1:13:06
consecrated religious and for. Priests, the liturgical life is
1:13:10
supreme for us, so we'll begin our celebration of All Saints
1:13:13
Day at the Vigil. The The High Holy Days begin the
1:13:16
evening before, and so for us, Halloween begins with First
1:13:19
Vespers of All Saints Day and of course a very Solemn Mass on All
1:13:23
Saints Day. One of the great joys of
1:13:25
priestly life is offering Masses for the dead.
1:13:27
So All Souls Day uniquely Well, there are two days of the year
1:13:31
that the priests can offer three Masses in one day for the souls
1:13:34
of the faithful departed. So we celebrate many Masses on
1:13:38
All Souls Day and I often like to think and of course we visit
1:13:41
cemeteries. We bless the graves of our
1:13:43
beloved dead and of our confreres.
1:13:46
I often like to think that I pray that every November 2nd is
1:13:50
like Christmas in purgatory. And that I always have this,
1:13:54
this intention in my in my mind that with our masses and the
1:13:57
masses happening all over the world, the sacrifices of the
1:13:59
Mass that the priests are offering three each all around
1:14:03
the the universal Church, that purgatory is emptied on All
1:14:07
Souls Day every year. Wow, beautiful.
1:14:09
We'll see if that happens. I love that.
1:14:11
But no trick or treating. For you, no trick.
1:14:13
Or treating no. And you've got your costume
1:14:15
already. I've so you're all.
1:14:17
I live in. I live in my Halloween.
1:14:20
Costume. Well, it's.
1:14:21
A good one I might try to. Make one for my my 4 year old.
1:14:24
So my almost 4 year old. Thank you so much Father
1:14:26
Ambrose. This has been awesome.
1:14:28
Thanks Lila. God bless you and your viewers.
1:14:29
Thank you. Thanks for listening to this
1:14:32
episode of The Lila. Rose podcast with Father Ambrose
1:14:35
Christ. Don't forget to like this video
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