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20.40: Mary Robinette Kowal’s Personal Writing Process · Writing Excuses

• 0:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: This episode of Writing Excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons and friends.
• 0:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: If you would like to learn how to support this podcast, visit www.patrion.com slash writing excuses.
• 0:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: Season 20, episode 40.
• 0:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: This is Writing Excuses.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: Mary Robin and Coals, personal writing process.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm Mary Rubinette.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going on.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Dan.
• 0:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm Erin.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm Howard.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So we had this thought, I hear a lot of people say, but what is your writing process?
• 0:38
  [SPEAKER_05]: And ask successful writers, people who are published, what is your writing process?
• 0:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: As if it is a key to being able to write.
• 0:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: The idea here is that you're gonna hear from each of the hosts, we're gonna tell you what our personal writing process is, the other people are probably gonna look at us like, that's what you do.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: And the idea is that the only important process is the one that works for you and that that's going to change over the course of your career or the course of the project that you're working on.
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, and by way of clarification, when we say, you're going to hear from each of the hosts about this, on this episode, we're talking about Murray Rubinitz, right in process, and each of us are going to point fingers and say, but how can that even work?
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: Because I do not know how that can even work.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, so my writing process is based on having a completely random schedule, but also having started with a random schedule where I was putting writing in the gaps of everything else I was doing.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_05]: I started writing novels sitting in a white cargo van in a passenger seat, writing longhand while it was on puppetry tours.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, because that was the thing that I could do, and then I had this ancient, so I mean at the time it was new.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: But this sewing machine of a portable computer, and so then my process was, I would transcribe things.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_05]: The idea of doing that now seems like, how did I even?
• 2:14
  [SPEAKER_05]: But the kind of lingering effects of that is that, um, I tend to write best in transit.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: still.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I love writing on an airplane.
• 2:25
  [SPEAKER_05]: A train is amazing.
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_05]: And then at home, my writing process used to work best when I went to coffee shops and then pandemic completely interrupted that.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: So for me, I have gone through phases where I'm like, I will write to every day and I will have this
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: I am having a reasonably good brain day.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: There are, you know, this is a day with fewer distractions.
• 2:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: Some of the things that have shifted in my life is that I've had to do a bunch of elder care.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So I went through a phase where I felt like
• 3:07
  [SPEAKER_05]: every time I sat down to write that I would in some way be punished for writing, not by someone in specific, but that if I sat down to write my mom was going to fall, and so I started to develop this real avoidance of wanting to get into the mode, because because something
• 3:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: is that I am trying to retrain my brain and retrain my, I should say, I'm trying to retrain myself to work with my brain because I have an understanding of the fact that I have ADHD, I have depression, I didn't know those things when I started writing.
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: And so like I'm trying to learn how to trigger hyper focus on demand.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: and how to turn it off or how to be okay with having hyperfocus broken.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So a lot of my writing process now is using binorale sound to say, oh, this is writing time, or making sure that I have lined up dates with other people.
• 4:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a lot of hacking of my brain that goes on, but people will ask me, what is my writing process?
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  [SPEAKER_02]: Right out of the gate, I love this because
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  [SPEAKER_02]: One lesson that gets taught all the time and I hate it is that you have to write every single day if you want to be a real writer and that's not how you work.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's not how I work either.
• 4:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: And being able to recognize, well, this is a good day, this is a good time and other days and other times you might have something more important to do and that's okay, it doesn't make you a bad writer, it doesn't make you an inherently unprofessional writer, it's just
• 4:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to rewind to an earlier thing, though, because the thought that I had as you describing it is, cargo vans don't have very good suspension, so writing by hand in the passenger seat of a moving cargo van seems like your penmanship is quite remarkable and I begin to understand why.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I didn't actually think about that.
• 5:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: Something that you said, Dan, about the writing every day, reminds me of a thing that I learned for myself, which is that there is value in saying I write every day for me because one of the things that I struggle with is executive function.
• 5:38
  [SPEAKER_05]: And the I write every day reduces a level of executive function because it means that's
• 5:44
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I've, I've, I've, I've, I've preached this on the podcast, you know, I try to write three sentences every three sentences every day.
• 5:52
  [SPEAKER_05]: And that's actually not true for where I am right now.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I don't actually do that, but that does make it much easier to, for my habit to be.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I have some free time.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to go on Instagram.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: rather than I'm going to sit down to write.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: And so that's a lot of what I'm trying to balance is learning how to re-shape habits so that I lean towards, oh, I have free time I'm going to write, which is what I used to do.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: Like my second novel, I literally wrote probably half of it using a palm pilot and graffiti on the New York subway.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So I was just fitting it into the cracks
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  [SPEAKER_05]: and now like I can arrange my schedule so that I can write any time I want to, but like I have cat videos to edit.
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Two things.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: One, I...
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  [SPEAKER_00]: I really love this idea that like you fit it into the cracks of your life and I'm curious about that but first, I actually read this book on habits and one of the things that they said is that what habits do is move something that you're doing from a thing you do to a thing you are.
• 7:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so for example, people will say, I am some, I am a writer who writes every day versus like I need to write every day.
• 7:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: and that if you do a habit long enough that's why people will be like I'm a runner versus I am someone who runs daily and that then it shifts so that it just feels like such a baseline of who you are that you go ahead and like do it because it feels like it's part of your identity.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: That can be good or bad it can become like a prison of identity but that's something that like I think that's why sometimes people like that feeling of like I am a daily writer.
• 7:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 7:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: The way I think about it is a difference between a habit and a practice.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: A habit is something that, you know, you feel you need to do every day.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: It's on your calendar or whatever it is.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: If you fall off of that, then it feels like a failure.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that failure in your state often prevents people from returning.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: Versus a practice is something that you're always working at, right?
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  [SPEAKER_03]: You're not expected to be perfect at it.
• 7:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: You try to do it every day.
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  [SPEAKER_03]: And then,
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  [SPEAKER_03]: tomorrow is always another opportunity to be the person that you see yourself as right so I am a writer.
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm I practice writing that means that you're making time and space in an intentional way but not holding yourself to an unrealizable standard right because I think very few people who say they write every day actually write every day right stuff happens right there are emergencies, efficiencies, there's travel, there's all these other things and quite frankly I think you should be making time for those things other interests in your life other people in your life
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so it's okay if even if you are a daily writer that you are not literally writing every day, right?
• 8:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think a lot of us can get really hung up on this like completionist perfection and I think the idea of a practice can make that space for you to still see yourself as that thing and doing the thing without beating yourself up.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and I have some other ideas about like some of the ways that I have found to go in and out of a daily writing practice, and I will talk about those more after the break.
• 9:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: So before we took our break, I said that I was interested in exploring how I go in and out of a daily writing practice because one of the things that I've realized as someone who has ADHD and like in hindsight, so many of my career choices make sense because one of the things that fuels an ADHD brainer that we respond well to is new things.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: But we also really enjoy
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  [SPEAKER_05]: And so, in hindsight, I was choosing careers where I was in theater, so I had a new project, every couple of months.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: Novel, interesting, challenging, and urgent, right?
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  [SPEAKER_05]: Those are the triggers.
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_05]: And I love doing those things, and so a new novel, very exciting.
• 9:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: So, I've realized that when I started,
• 9:59
  [SPEAKER_05]: I was still participating in the late-Limited Nano, and that is binge writing, that is hyper-focus for a month on a thing, and so now I recognize that, oh actually, it's okay for me to say, I'm going to focus on this for this period of time.
• 10:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: But if I'm in a situation where I have to switch tracks that I have to be able to learn how to take myself in and back out again for that.
• 10:34
  [SPEAKER_05]: And so one of the things that I've been working on is micro sessions.
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: Because I think one of the things that happens to someone who enjoys hyperfocus is that you think, oh, I'm going to get into that and I'm either going to be punished because I will miss, you know, I'll be late to do something else or someone's going to interrupt me and that will be frustrating.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: And so I've been doing setting timers and saying, okay, five minutes.
• 11:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: And that will just, it's like, look, I got a lot of words done.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I can do this in a five minute first and then kind of building up.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So that if I've been in a phase where I haven't been writing for a while, I can ramp myself up into it instead of having like a day where I'm like,
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  [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, it's time for me to write.
• 11:24
  [SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna write 2,000 words because that's what I write when I'm writing at pace and and then I'm exhausted because I haven't been writing daily and and then I don't write.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So like learning to use these microstations to ramp up has been helpful.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's this famous object lesson involving a Mason jar and eggs and rice in which
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  [SPEAKER_01]: You want to get everything into the jar, and if you pour the rice in first, there isn't room for the eggs.
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  [SPEAKER_01]: You put the eggs in first, and the rice will fill the gaps.
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  [SPEAKER_01]: And the object lesson is, find out what's important to you, put the important things in your life first, and then let everything else fill the gaps.
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  [SPEAKER_01]: And what you've described with some of the catches catch can writing process,
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  [SPEAKER_01]: is learning to, and I'm going to extend and then break the metaphor because I'm me, learning to be the monk who can write on a grain of rice, turn your writing process into something that can fill the tracks, that can be on the grains of rice.
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  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you want it to be an egg.
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  [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes you want to block out four hours and just write, but you have to have the ability
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  [SPEAKER_01]: I say you, for your process, you have to have the ability to write on a grain of rice on some days.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: And so that is actually part of the thing is that when I have a deadline, which is again, triggers the urgency thing, it's so much easier for me to do time blocking and stick to it.
• 12:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: Otherwise, I'm very likely to block things out on my calendar and then be like, oh, we can move that.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: thinking a lot about again about the cracks and you writing on the modes of transit which I think is fascinating as somebody who has occasionally like written on the subway and what I wonder about this is like there's so many interruptions like so being on any former transit like.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: at any moment, like things could be happening, a road sign of thing, but it's like things that you anticipate happening.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like an interruption that you, sounds like it's like an interruption that you have some internalized is going to happen, versus an unexpected interruption.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what I mean?
• 13:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm wondering if that's something that you've played around with or thought about.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think that the interruptions that happen in modes of transit are either things that you're expecting so you can plan for them because I know my stop is coming up or there are things that you don't actually have to engage with.
• 13:49
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, the interruptions that I was dealing with were things that I had to engage with.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, like, I'm, I am, my, my mom passed in 2023.
• 13:59
  [SPEAKER_05]: We live in a basement apartment.
• 14:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, there are three dogs.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: I hear something hit the ground and I still have this, this trauma response of, I need to go deal with that.
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  [SPEAKER_05]: And like, a hundred percent don't, the dogs are fine.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: So I think some of that is the difference between interruptions you have to engage with in the ones you don't.
• 14:23
  [SPEAKER_05]: But I think the other thing that again in hindsight was happening for me was that there was just enough white noise,
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_05]: And that made it easier to ignore all of the other chat, like in the process of I have to ignore all of this other stuff, it made me also ignore all of the other random chatter in my brain, you know, because I had to focus to block everything else out.
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, one thing that's interesting, and I was thinking about this as we're talking about, you know, the fitting, the writing in the cracks, but also your life is very demanding, right?
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 15:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: The travel, there's a lot of interruptions.
• 15:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the question I had was, how do you defend your time?
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: And as you were talking about this last bit, I realized, oh, travel because it's this liminal space where you're sort of, you know, how you walk into an airport and suddenly all societal rules are off like you're like, oh, I can have, you know, lunch at nine in the morning.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: and you see people drinking like three martini is and you're like, what is happening right now?
• 15:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's breakfast.
• 15:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's breakfast, right?
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: But there is this thing about like airports and planes and trains and subway where because it's like dead time or mean between other things.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: No one can actually really interrupt you in that time because you're traveling free in that space, where you're protected.
• 15:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: So you're, I could see with how much you travel, like let's you have this sort of defended space.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: But when you're at home, do you have strategies for protecting your time?
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: How are you keeping all the daily demands your life a little bit at bay for like these 20 minutes, this two hours, whatever it is?
• 16:05
  [SPEAKER_05]: no one can schedule a meeting with me before noon except in very rare occasions where it's like a time sense of thing and that's you know and even then I'll have let my assistant do that I don't get to make that call because I will I will give my time away and no one can make a meeting with me after six p.m.
• 16:25
  [SPEAKER_05]: so I have I have these windows in which meetings can happen no one can make a meeting with
• 16:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and so those are some things that I've done to try to
• 16:41
  [SPEAKER_05]: carve out a little bit more time.
• 16:43
  [SPEAKER_05]: I also, this is ridiculous, but it has worked.
• 16:51
  [SPEAKER_05]: I have trained LC and Gupi that when I am at my desk, and I say, Mary Robinette, working now, that they will both mostly curl up and go to sleep, because they know that they will get treats and that I will play with them when I'm done.
• 17:08
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, and that has made a huge difference because as much as I love the fact that I've taught my cat to talk, she is a toddler and needs a lot of attention.
• 17:15
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but, uh, those are those are things that
• 17:22
  [SPEAKER_05]: give me the ability to have space to write.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_05]: The person I have to defend my writing space from the most is actually myself.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, see that again for the people sitting in the bag.
• 17:35
  [SPEAKER_05]: The person I have to defend my writing time from the most is myself because I will give it away.
• 17:40
  [SPEAKER_05]: I will think, oh, I can do it later, I will prioritize other things.
• 17:45
  [SPEAKER_05]: So, I have found that the best practice for me is that I get up in the morning and when I manage to do this, I have a really good day.
• 17:57
  [SPEAKER_05]: Or I'm already in a good brain space so I'm able to do it, cause correlation who knows.
• 18:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: But I write down these are the things, the time-sensitive things that I have to do today.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_05]: Here's the places I need to be, here are three tasks that I'm going to try to accomplish.
• 18:12
  [SPEAKER_05]: And if I don't write down writing is one of those three tasks, I will have effectively given my time away.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_05]: But then I do a timeline for myself of what I'm going to be doing.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: So what I'm basically doing is I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_05]: Clumping my executive function at the beginning of the day when it's when I have the most of it So that when I finish a task I can look at my notebook and go oh now I'm supposed to move to this You know move on to this you know I'm supposed to write and And reframing it as I just said supposed to I've been trying to reframe it as now I get to write
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_05]: because supposed to comes with a certain amount of shame and guilt if you don't do it.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_05]: So now I get to write and then I have a couple of things that I only get like I have this candle that I love and I only get to have a light the candle when I am writing.
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_05]: I have a playlist of music that I really like, but I only turn that playlist on when I'm writing.
• 19:17
  [SPEAKER_05]: Um, so I have a couple of things and then there's usually the other thing that I've found that works very well for my brain is to, um, to have another piece of writing that is my reward for finishing this piece of writing.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, once I finish this, then I get to do that.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_05]: And once I finish that, then I get to do, you know, like, then I get to write the scene where they make out, and then I get to do the thing where the dragons, you know, are flying.
• 19:45
  [SPEAKER_05]: And then I get to that, that seeing the next bit of writing is the reward for this bit of writing helps me, like, link and excitement.
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I really love about this and I suspect that we will find it is true for all of us is that your writing process is continually evolving.
• 20:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
• 20:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not one thing that works for you.
• 20:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's things that are changing.
• 20:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And some of that is your circumstances have changed.
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, who you are living with, what job you have, but a lot of it is just you are learning more about yourself.
• 20:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: And you just said that something you have found about yourself, giving yourself a reward, you are an incredibly accomplished and experienced writer and you are still discovering things about yourself in your process.
• 20:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that is, I hope, really,
• 20:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: beneficial for aspiring writers to hear that on the one hand, maybe the downside is that you never hit the point where you've perfected everything, it's never a solved problem, but the upside is that you are continually learning, you're continually growing, you're continually figuring out new things that work well for you.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
• 21:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: So that's our hope for you, our listeners, as you are listening to us talk about our writing processes because all of us are going to, all of us have different brains and all of us have different struggles and challenges and goals.
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_05]: for you.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_05]: I have some homework.
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_05]: What helps you want to do the things that aren't writing, the other things in your life, the other tasks, the other joys that you have, what helps you with those?
• 21:31
  [SPEAKER_05]: Because the tools that you use for those also work with writing,
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_05]: So is there anything that you use like, is it lists, is it spreadsheets, is it, you know, body double, and what is it that helps you want to do something?
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_05]: And can you use those same things to guide your writing process?
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: This has been writing excuses.
• 21:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're out of excuses.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: Now go right.
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_05]: Writing excuses has been brought to you by our listeners, patrons and friends.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_05]: For this episode, your hosts were Mary Robinette Koal, Dongwon Song, Erin Roberts, Dan Wells and Howard Taylor.
• 22:09
  [SPEAKER_05]: This episode was engineered by Marshall Card Jr., mastered by Alex Jackson, and produced by Emma Reynolds.
• 22:16
  [SPEAKER_05]: For more information, visit writing excuses.com.