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Transcript

Childhood Survival Skills That Sabotage Your Adult Relationships: The Path to Emotional Maturity · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Hey everybody, welcome to Waking Up to Narcissism. Also, this is definitely,
• 0:04
  this episode is going to play on a virtual couch feed as well because this is a big one.
• 0:09
  This is something I've been working on for a very long time because we are going
• 0:13
  to talk about one of the subjects I think does not get enough air and that is emotional immaturity.
• 0:20
  I cannot wait to take you on the journey that we're going to go on today.
• 0:23
  But first, before we dive into today's episode, I want to share an email that
• 0:28
  is going to act as today's muse because this person's questions are so perfect
• 0:32
  that they could have scripted today's topic themselves, which I think that you'll see they kind of do.
• 0:38
  We'll call the person Mark. Mark says, hey, Tony, I've been a devoted listener
• 0:42
  of both the virtual couch and waking up to narcissism for years now,
• 0:46
  literally listening while folding laundry, commuting, and once embarrassingly
• 0:49
  in a Sunday school class at church.
• 0:51
  When I honestly don't know what happened, but my earbud disconnected.
• 0:55
  And thankfully, you weren't talking about your coronography recovery program
• 0:59
  for the full 30 seconds that you were loudly echoing in the church classroom
• 1:03
  while I tried to figure out what was happening.
• 1:06
  My wife also listens to you from time to time, but she definitely does not like
• 1:09
  it when I say to her things like, tell me more about that, or I didn't know what I didn't know.
• 1:14
  And that's a you thing, which I now understand is actually a me thing.
• 1:18
  First, I want to thank you for consistently clarifying the difference between
• 1:21
  having narcissistic personality disorder and simply displaying emotionally immature behaviors.
• 1:25
  That distinction has been genuinely life-changing for me.
• 1:28
  When I first started learning about narcissism, I went through the classic phase
• 1:32
  of, oh no, is everybody in my life a narcissist? Am I a narcissist?
• 1:35
  And I agree, cats are narcissists.
• 1:38
  If anybody has listened for a while, I do maintain that I do think that they are.
• 1:43
  But your podcast have helped me understand the much more common reality of emotional
• 1:46
  immaturity that it sounds like we all navigate, which brings me to my question.
• 1:50
  I'm getting better at recognizing emotional immaturity in others.
• 1:53
  And he says, cough, cough, my wife.
• 1:56
  But how do I honestly assess where I'm being emotionally immature myself?
• 1:59
  I caught myself last week giving my wife the silent treatment after an argument.
• 2:03
  He said, I had this moment of, oh, wait, am I being the emotionally immature
• 2:06
  one here? And he said it was a strange mirror to look into.
• 2:09
  You mentioned several times you believe we're all emotionally immature until we're not.
• 2:13
  And he said, that really resonates with me. But I'm curious,
• 2:15
  are some people naturally more emotionally mature from the start?
• 2:19
  Or do we all begin at roughly the same place and develop at different rates
• 2:22
  depending on our experiences?
• 2:24
  And what does the journey from immaturity to maturity actually look like in everyday life?
• 2:29
  He said, I'm realizing that while I can intellectually understand concepts like
• 2:32
  differentiation and curiosity and self-confrontation in practice,
• 2:35
  I still find myself reacting in ways that seem pretty childish.
• 2:38
  He said, thanks for creating content that makes me uncomfortable,
• 2:41
  self-aware in the best possible way. Mark.
• 2:44
  So thank you, Mark. First of all, I'm sorry to hear about the whole church thing
• 2:48
  because yeah, I've had my headphones connected various places or locations.
• 2:53
  And I can even tell you they're the most amazing stories as a therapist of how
• 2:57
  people, I want to say, get caught or get in trouble.
• 2:59
  And one of those is where someone's Bluetooth connects to something that is
• 3:02
  not something that they are proud of or that they are not hoping that their
• 3:07
  spouse or their family hears.
• 3:09
  And the whole everything is a me thing definitely implies that everything else is a you thing.
• 3:14
  I get that. But that is definitely not the point of that concept.
• 3:18
  What he actually did is take a brand new shiny tool and then use it as a weapon against his wife.
• 3:24
  But something tells me that there's probably an origin story there.
• 3:26
  Did you see your dad do that?
• 3:28
  Or maybe it's just what makes sense to you because you've been doing things
• 3:30
  like that since you were a small child.
• 3:32
  And we'll actually talk about that a lot a bit later in the show.
• 3:35
  But your questions, Mark, they are brilliant and they get right to the heart
• 3:38
  of what I have been wanting to explore for a long time in detail.
• 3:42
  And it's that moment of self-awareness, the wait, am I being the emotionally immature one here?
• 3:48
  Because that's actually the first sign of growing emotional maturity.
• 3:52
  And I would like to put a counter on the board for the number of times that
• 3:55
  I'm going to say things like we
• 3:57
  are all emotionally immature until we can recognize what that looks like.
• 4:01
  And I think it really does help to understand a good origin story because this
• 4:05
  whole journey of emotional immaturity to emotional maturity is definitely not linear.
• 4:09
  It's not a one size fits all. It's more like this relay race where we're constantly
• 4:13
  passing the baton between different versions of ourselves.
• 4:16
  And every now and again, we might have a much more mature version of ourselves
• 4:20
  that takes the baton and is running around the track.
• 4:22
  But then they hand it off to someone that now we're at a new position in the race.
• 4:26
  We are now fatigued or we are calorie depleted and an immature version of us
• 4:31
  might show up because as we go through life and we have different experiences
• 4:34
  in our relationships and just in life in general,
• 4:37
  then it is going to provide us with a chance to recognize these new areas of
• 4:42
  immaturity or it's going to bring up some old areas of emotional immaturity as well.
• 4:47
  Today, inspired by Mark's excellent
• 4:49
  questions, we're going to explore an emotional maturity spectrum.
• 4:52
  And we're going to go from narcissistic personality disorder all the way to
• 4:57
  the other side of that, which is more emotional wisdom, which may come with
• 5:02
  a full ponytail, a yoga mat, a gi.
• 5:05
  I don't know if they wear those outside of the martial arts,
• 5:08
  but some sort of comfortable clothing that shows that I am, I have become, I have arrived.
• 5:13
  And that is on this way to full emotional maturity.
• 5:17
  But I think most of us hang out somewhere in this messy middle,
• 5:20
  hopefully continuing to move along the spectrum toward more emotionally mature.
• 5:25
  And I am going to spend a lot of time today exploring why certain childhood
• 5:29
  behaviors that helped us survive back when we were kids, that those actually
• 5:33
  create havoc in our adult relationships.
• 5:35
  I have recently been taking a couples training from a psychologist named Terry Reel.
• 5:40
  And I've heard a colleague of mine, Jennifer Finlayson-Fyfe,
• 5:43
  mention Terry Reel's work on occasion. When she has quoted him,
• 5:46
  I've loved his work. So I finally Googled him.
• 5:48
  And then all of a sudden, I am inundated with ads for his stuff.
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  Quotes of his popping up everywhere. It was almost as if my phone or my computer was listening to me.
• 5:58
  I am now inserting a dramatic pause because I believe it is. Don't call me paranoid.
• 6:03
  Anyway, we'll explore Terry Reel's game-changing insight that he says what was
• 6:07
  adaptive in childhood then becomes maladaptive in adulthood.
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  And that will truly be one of those things that once you see it,
• 6:15
  you can no longer unsee it in a good way.
• 6:18
  I promise I'm going to create a practical translation guide to help you recognize
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  when you are responding as someone who is emotionally mature,
• 6:25
  when it is coming from your inner child how to gently then pass that baton to your adult self.
• 6:32
  Because take, for example, that silent treatment that Mark mentioned,
• 6:35
  that's not a character flaw.
• 6:37
  And I think this is such a good way to look at it. That is his inner child doing
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  exactly what worked when you were little.
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  I'm going to go silent. I'm going to sit this one out, let the storm pass, and I survived.
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  Our job is not to shame that part of us, but it's honestly to thank it for getting us this far.
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  But now, time to let the big kids take over time to
• 6:56
  let our adult self take the wheel grab your
• 6:59
  metaphorical running shoes because we're about to explore this relay race of
• 7:02
  emotional development that every single one of us is running i promise you that
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  whether we realize it or not and trust me understanding where you are on that
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  track it can honestly transform every relationship in your life and primarily
• 7:16
  that one with yourself so let's get started.
• 7:24
  It's not my job, it's not my job, not to take care of you. Hey everybody,
• 7:29
  okay, I am your host, Tony Oberbe.
• 7:31
  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker,
• 7:35
  If you have not followed me on social media, I would be very honored at virtual.couch
• 7:41
  on Instagram and at virtual couch on TikTok.
• 7:43
  And my daughter, Sydney and I, my daughter, Mackie and I were doing more and
• 7:46
  more live question and answers on those platforms.
• 7:49
  I would love for you to join us there. It's one of my highlights of the week
• 7:52
  and the magnetic marriage course.
• 7:55
  It is, it is being revamped. It is being updated. It is being refilmed.
• 7:59
  And I am so excited about it. And I would love it if you would join my newsletter.
• 8:04
  So go to tonyoverbay.com and sign up for the newsletter.
• 8:07
  Or you can email me through the contact form or reach out to me at contact at
• 8:12
  tonyoverbay.com and let me know that you're interested.
• 8:14
  As a matter of fact, I have put together a four-pillar worksheet,
• 8:18
  a four-pillar document that I am more than happy to hand out to you if you reach out to me.
• 8:22
  And if you are struggling with turning to an unhealthy coping mechanism that
• 8:27
  rhymes with coronography, then go to pathbackrecovery.com, reach out to me.
• 8:33
  I'll give you a coupon code if that would help, because that is honestly changing lives.
• 8:37
  It's a wonderful course that is self-guided, self-paced, but I have a weekly
• 8:42
  men's group call for that, that I think is so, so beneficial and helpful.
• 8:47
  And today I'm going to talk a lot about emotional immaturity.
• 8:50
  And this is my passion, is pointing out where we are all emotionally immature
• 8:54
  and what it looks like to become more emotionally mature.
• 8:58
  So if you hear things in this content today that you like, that you're interested
• 9:02
  in, reach out to me because I'm starting a new men's group called the Emotional Architects.
• 9:08
  And I would love to have you be a part of it. It's going to be a couple of group
• 9:12
  calls a month. It'll be a fairly low cost.
• 9:15
  The calls will be archived. You'll have access to the Q&As with me and we're
• 9:20
  going to become more emotionally mature and change the world in the meantime.
• 9:23
  Show up better in your relationships as a parent, just in life in general.
• 9:27
  But let's get to the show.
• 9:29
  My podcast, Waking Up to Narcissism, has been built on a foundation that narcissistic
• 9:33
  personality disorder is only seen in a very small percentage of the population.
• 9:36
  And I have some episodes where I really go into detail about the research around that.
• 9:40
  But if we just start grounding ourselves in some facts, narcissistic personality
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  disorder, depending on the study, and I will always get a little bit of feedback
• 9:48
  from this when I post something about this, but it affects approximately anywhere
• 9:52
  from some believe two to six percent of the general population.
• 9:54
  Now, the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-5, which is the diagnostic and statistical
• 10:00
  manual that therapists use for diagnosis,
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  requires a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, a need for admiration,
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  and a lack of empathy with at least five out of these nine specific symptoms present.
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  Which the diagnosis concept in general can be pretty fascinating because let's
• 10:15
  say that somebody has four and a half out of those nine symptoms,
• 10:19
  then they get to say, it turns out I'm not a narcissist.
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  Matter of fact, I'm just really good at not being a narcissist,
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  which is a little bit narcissistic.
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  But I think what makes today's conversation so powerful is recognizing that
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  there are behaviors that resemble narcissism, and they actually can be expressions
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  of emotional immaturity.
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  Or these narcissistic traits or states or tendencies that I believe exist on
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  a spectrum that we all navigate.
• 10:43
  Because I will maintain, I think I said earlier, let's put a counter on for
• 10:47
  how many times I mentioned that we are essentially all emotionally immature until we're not.
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  Meaning that as we go through life and we're learning and growing and interacting
• 10:55
  with other people, the hope would be that we start to show up as more mature adults.
• 10:59
  So let's talk about the narcissistic spectrum, this spectrum from narcissistic
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  personality disorder all the way through to emotional maturity.
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  To do so, I would like to present to you a narrative called Dinner with Daniel.
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  Imagine that you are meeting a friend's new partner for the very first time.
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  His name is Daniel. From the moment you walk into the restaurant,
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  Daniel takes up all the space in the room.
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  He is dressed very sharply, noticeably expensive clothing.
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  And before anybody can get a word out, Daniel launches into a monologue about
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  how his company would not survive without him.
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  He name drops casually. Oh, that investor. Yeah, we had lunch last week.
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  And he frequently references very high status people or exotic places.
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  Now, when your friend starts to tell a story about their recent promotion at
• 11:47
  work, Daniel interrupts, staring the conversation back to him.
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  That's cute. He says, you know, when I was your age, I had already had two promotions
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  and they were much bigger than that.
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  He doesn't smile because he really does mean that.
• 12:00
  Throughout the night, he just subtly puts your friend down. She's terrible with
• 12:03
  directions, he says, with a laugh when they try to describe a trip that they took.
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  Don't worry, though. I handled the itinerary. I always have to.
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  And he says it like it's a joke.
• 12:12
  She sure looks uncomfortable. And then when she finally confronts him very gently,
• 12:16
  very softly about cutting her off and she just wants to try to finish her story,
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  he responds very flatly.
• 12:23
  Look who's being pretty sensitive here. I think people really like how direct I am. Right, everybody?
• 12:28
  What are they supposed to say? So he just says back to her, you know,
• 12:31
  you should really toughen up.
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  Now, one of my personal pet peeves, later, the waiter accidentally forgets an
• 12:39
  appetizer. Daniel turns extremely cold.
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  Unbelievable, he mutters. You know, you'd think with the money that I'm going
• 12:45
  to pay here, they would treat us better than this.
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  I should have known to go to somewhere else, not this place.
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  And he demands to see a manager and everyone is uncomfortable.
• 12:54
  And he insists that a free dessert is the very least that they can do.
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  He comes here all the time.
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  When the manager finally offers it, he doesn't say a word.
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  He doesn't thank him. And he basically just waves him off muttering,
• 13:06
  okay, what else were they supposed to do? That's the right thing to do.
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  After dinner, he insists that you all take a selfie.
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  Positions himself naturally in the center. Takes several shots,
• 13:17
  inspecting each one. My jawline looks kind of weird in this one.
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  He said, let's do it again and again.
• 13:22
  And someone else finally says, hey, can I take a look? And he says, you look fine.
• 13:26
  And then later, he posts one to Instagram with the caption, keeping company with greatness.
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  No mention of your names. Apparently, he's the greatness.
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  In the car ride home, your friend admits, man, he's a lot, but he is really confident.
• 13:41
  And he says, I just would never understand the pressure he's under.
• 13:44
  So, I mean, I guess he's right.
• 13:46
  So, let's break down the narcissistic traits in this narrative of dinner with Daniel.
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  It is grandiosity at its best and a very, very strong sense of superiority.
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  Because Daniel talks extensively about his achievements. He exaggerates his
• 13:59
  status. He dominates the conversation.
• 14:01
  He has a very inflated view of how important he is and he lacks empathy.
• 14:06
  When his partner tries to express her discomfort, Daniel minimizes it.
• 14:09
  It's not a big deal. He invalidates her and he turns the issue back on her.
• 14:13
  He has a need for excessive admiration because this guy thrives on attention.
• 14:19
  He curates his image so meticulously from the clothes he wears,
• 14:23
  the photo taking, and he expects others to reflect his sense of greatness.
• 14:28
  Man, how lucky they are to be with him.
• 14:30
  Exploitive behavior. He takes over plans. He takes over discussions.
• 14:34
  He certainly takes over conversations without considering other people's needs.
• 14:37
  His partner basically is like a prop.
• 14:39
  And he has a sense of entitlement that when the waiter makes a mistake, he overreacts.
• 14:42
  He demands compensation because he is believed, he's very special,
• 14:46
  and he's owed special treatment, which just is Arians.
• 14:50
  He talks down to others. He dismisses their opinions or their experiences.
• 14:53
  Unless they revolve around him or they benefit him.
• 14:57
  And enmeshment with his own image, everything he does from his storytelling
• 15:01
  to Instagram captions is carefully crafted because he is gonna maintain this public image.
• 15:07
  And to him, everyone around him is very fortunate that he is even sharing that with them.
• 15:12
  So, this is the kind of example that I think shows how narcissistic personality
• 15:16
  disorder isn't just about someone being confident or that somebody's being difficult.
• 15:22
  It's a personality disorder. It's a consistent pattern of behavior that is rooted
• 15:26
  in things like entitlement, lack of empathy, an overwhelming need to be admired,
• 15:30
  seen as superior, always taking that one-up position.
• 15:32
  This is the beginning of the spectrum from full-blown narcissistic personality
• 15:35
  disorder to, we'll just say, true emotional maturity.
• 15:41
  So let's stay with Daniel and let's walk him down the spectrum.
• 15:45
  And we'll say there's four stages. So stage one, the one we just covered,
• 15:50
  narcissistic personality disorder.
• 15:51
  This is Daniel, the centerpiece.
• 15:54
  Again, he dominates attention, lacks empathy, constantly seeks admiration,
• 15:58
  dismisses others' feelings, expects special treatment, manipulates and invalidates
• 16:01
  all those around him with zero awareness, no remorse.
• 16:04
  So we got these key traits, grandiosity, entitlement, lack of empathy,
• 16:08
  emotional invalidation, superficial charm, exploitation of others,
• 16:12
  maintaining this particular self-image.
• 16:15
  A step down, stage two, we'll call it on the spectrum, is extremely emotionally
• 16:20
  immature. We'll call this one Daniel the Defensive.
• 16:23
  Now, Daniel no longer checks every diagnostic box for narcissistic personality
• 16:27
  disorder, but he struggles.
• 16:28
  He struggles deeply with emotional awareness and connection.
• 16:32
  He's not as overtly arrogant, but he reacts defensively to discomfort,
• 16:37
  it, often becoming very passive aggressive or blaming others.
• 16:41
  So now let's go back to a dinner scenario. So during a dinner,
• 16:44
  Daniel still talks a lot about himself, but now it is laced with his insecurity
• 16:47
  because he might say things like, you know, nobody even understands what I do.
• 16:51
  It's really hard to be the smartest one in the room because if his partner challenges
• 16:54
  him, he might sigh dramatically or then shut down with, here we go again.
• 16:58
  You'll always find a way to make me the bad guy.
• 17:00
  Now, he still might snap at the waiter for a mistake, but instead of demanding
• 17:03
  dessert, he sulks and he makes snide comments under his breath.
• 17:06
  He sees himself as a victim of other people's incompetence. That victim still
• 17:10
  is taking a one-up position because it is a woe is me, look at me,
• 17:14
  how do I even deal with this?
• 17:16
  So, the key traits there, defensive posture, emotional reactivity,
• 17:19
  victim mentality, blame shifting, very low accountability, poor empathy skills.
• 17:24
  He doesn't seek admiration as overtly, but he is terrified of being wrong or vulnerable.
• 17:30
  Here's where we've got this little kid that is in adult clothes,
• 17:33
  that is just trying to show up in a way that will get their needs met or have
• 17:36
  all eyes or attention focused on them because to that incredibly emotionally
• 17:40
  immature person, they don't even know they exist unless they're interacting with another person.
• 17:44
  And it can't be from a place of genuine curiosity or vulnerability.
• 17:47
  It has to be from a place of, I need you to know that I am the center of attention.
• 17:52
  I am in the one-up position over you and you just need to bring something up
• 17:56
  to me and And I can let you know how you're wrong and I'm right.
• 17:59
  Or I can't even believe you said that based off of the way that I'm feeling
• 18:02
  or the things that I know or I'm doing.
• 18:04
  So let's move on to stage three. This is just good old emotional immaturity.
• 18:08
  This is Daniel the trying.
• 18:10
  Now Daniel's starting to notice his own patterns. He's not always successful
• 18:13
  at emotional regulation, but he's starting to show signs of growth.
• 18:16
  And he interrupts far less often and even catches himself when he starts to
• 18:20
  dominate the conversation. Let's go back to the dinner scenario.
• 18:23
  Now Daniel still shares a story about work, but when his partner starts to talk,
• 18:26
  he pauses and he's like, hey, my bad. I got carried away. You go ahead.
• 18:30
  Now, it's still a little bit clunky because he was going on, but it's there.
• 18:34
  And when she brings up an issue from earlier, he does get a little bit defensive,
• 18:38
  but then he's able to take a breath, have a pause.
• 18:41
  And he says, okay, honestly, I don't know if I was listening as well as I could
• 18:45
  have. I can try that again.
• 18:47
  Thank you for bringing that awareness to me. He might still occasionally downplay
• 18:50
  emotions, saying things like, I don't really understand why that hurt your feelings,
• 18:53
  but I have to trust that it did.
• 18:56
  So it's imperfect empathy, but it's sincere. So, the key traits in this stage
• 19:02
  three, this is Daniel the Trine, increasing self-awareness.
• 19:06
  He is beginning to know what he did not know.
• 19:08
  There's still reactivity, occasional defensiveness. There's some basic empathy.
• 19:13
  There's pretty clumsy accountability, but he still has this growth mindset.
• 19:17
  I am on this path of trying to figure it out. He's starting to see the relationship
• 19:21
  and he's starting to understand that they are not about performance or control,
• 19:25
  but it's more about presence.
• 19:27
  It's about trying to continue to show up and I may not always get it right,
• 19:31
  but I'm going to continue to try.
• 19:34
  Now, enter stage four of this emotional, mature human being that is as far off
• 19:42
  of the spectrum of the narcissistic personality disordered person as can be.
• 19:46
  This is Daniel the Grounded. So, this version of Daniel is no longer seeking validation.
• 19:51
  He's not dodging vulnerability. He can sit with discomfort. He can own his own
• 19:56
  mistakes without spiraling into shame or deflection.
• 19:59
  And he remains present even if he disagrees or even if he feels misunderstood
• 20:03
  because Daniel knows who he is and he's okay with himself. At dinner now,
• 20:10
  Daniel asks about other people first.
• 20:12
  He listens with genuine curiosity, not asking someone a question so that he
• 20:16
  can then get to whatever he wants to talk about.
• 20:18
  When his partner shares a differing perspective, he says, you know what?
• 20:22
  Thank you for sharing that. I
• 20:23
  didn't even realize that it had landed that way. Hey, I'd like a do-over.
• 20:27
  And if the waiter makes a mistake, he is gracious. Hey, no worries.
• 20:31
  Take your time. We're all human. We're just doing our best. He doesn't need to be right.
• 20:35
  He doesn't need to impress. He is connected to himself enough to show up for others.
• 20:40
  As cliched as it sounds, he loves himself. So now he can love others.
• 20:45
  If you do not love yourself, then you're trying to figure out how to get others to love you.
• 20:49
  And if you have this narcissistic, grandiose version of yourself,
• 20:53
  you don't care at all about others.
• 20:55
  So, the key traits of this version of Daniel, emotional regulation,
• 21:00
  high empathy, emotional intelligence, emotional consistency,
• 21:04
  personal accountability. He's open to feedback. He has authentic humility,
• 21:08
  and he is differentiated.
• 21:10
  He can hold on to his sense of self while staying connected to others.
• 21:14
  As a matter of fact, when you get really good at that concept of becoming differentiated,
• 21:18
  then you learn more about yourself in the interaction with others.
• 21:22
  That is why we are in relationships, because I want to understand who I am.
• 21:28
  And once I know who I am, man, I can really, really want to know you.
• 21:33
  And it doesn't have to be perfect. But if I'm not sure who I am,
• 21:36
  then I'm going to view a lot of the things that you say as if you are telling
• 21:39
  me I am wrong and you are right.
• 21:41
  And then my immaturity will lash back at you and say, oh, no,
• 21:45
  you don't understand. Or I can't even believe you think that.
• 21:48
  Or, okay, really, that's what you think? Emotional maturity, level one.
• 21:53
  On one side, we have narcissistic personality disorder.
• 21:57
  Controlling, lacks empathy, emotional impact on others is severe, it's often traumatic.
• 22:03
  And then if we move on to that second, becoming less narcissistic,
• 22:09
  but extremely emotionally immature,
• 22:12
  highly reactive, deflects blame, operates really from fear and insecurity,
• 22:15
  and is emotionally confusing and inconsistent and unsafe to others.
• 22:20
  Now we're moving on to, we'll call it that stage three, emotionally immature.
• 22:25
  Shows effort, self-aware at times, but is inconsistent.
• 22:29
  But emotional growth is beginning to become visible, but it is messy.
• 22:34
  And then the one that comes with the gi and the ponytail, the unicorn, the pot of gold.
• 22:41
  High emotional maturity, centered, grounded, empathetic, accountable,
• 22:46
  curious, safe, and easy to connect with emotionally.
• 22:51
  So think of that spectrum. It is beautifully complex to understand where we land on the spectrum,
• 22:59
  because I would like for you to think of emotional development less like a straight
• 23:03
  line and more like a topographical map, because it's going to have this developmental terrain.
• 23:08
  Those are our childhood experiences because they've created these certain neural
• 23:11
  pathways that become our default reactions.
• 23:14
  You can think of situational weather, because even the most mature person can
• 23:18
  regress when triggers hit, especially when they hit certain attachment wounds.
• 23:22
  So the weather, it can be a good day and all of a sudden in comes the storm
• 23:27
  clouds and it can dump and pour rain.
• 23:30
  And no, that can be because of the cloud cover, because that can be because
• 23:35
  the clouds hit, because the rain hit. I am getting wet.
• 23:38
  I am having this experience and I am reacting to it.
• 23:42
  Relationship climate can play a role in this topographical map because we may
• 23:46
  show up differently depending on whether we feel safe or we feel threatened.
• 23:50
  And then we have to be aware of our resources and our reserves.
• 23:55
  It's about our capacity for mature responses because that'll diminish when we are depleted.
• 24:00
  There's an acronym that's big in the addiction recovery world,
• 24:04
  HALT, if I am hungry, if I'm angry, if I am lonely, if I am tired.
• 24:08
  Because keep in mind, self-awareness about where we fall on the spectrum is not about shame.
• 24:15
  It just is. And once I'm aware of where I'm at, then I can start making a choice.
• 24:22
  And the goal is absolutely not perfection, but it is expansion.
• 24:26
  It is moving from this, I did not know what I did not know, to I know,
• 24:30
  but man, I don't do whatever it is as much as I would like.
• 24:34
  And that's a hard place to be because you will beat yourself up there often.
• 24:37
  But eventually, I'll move on to this next stage of where I know far more than I did.
• 24:41
  And that one is where I'm starting to give myself much more grace and I'm having
• 24:45
  more success and I'm starting to feel a shift in inside.
• 24:49
  And then I finally become, this is just who I am. This is what I do.
• 24:55
  And when we talk about our emotions, there's a belief in the emotionally focused
• 24:59
  therapy world that our emotions travel up to two and a half times faster than logic.
• 25:03
  That is our visceral or our gut reaction. And it is an amazing thing that the body does.
• 25:07
  Our visceral reaction. We're walking down the street and then out of the corner
• 25:12
  of our eye, we see something and we recoil, but we don't even know what that is.
• 25:16
  And then we look and then we see it's just a string on the ground,
• 25:18
  not a predator, not a snake.
• 25:20
  That is miraculous the way that works because I don't even know what's happening
• 25:24
  and I am avoiding this potential danger.
• 25:27
  So, we have these default reactions. So, we often need to accept the fact that just happens.
• 25:34
  Now, we can work to start to change those neural pathways, but I think it's
• 25:38
  important to recognize that first, they are there.
• 25:40
  Those are our default reactions. So, many of those just happen from childhood
• 25:44
  because even the most mature person can regress when triggers hit and that over
• 25:50
  time becomes actually something that's pretty fascinating.
• 25:53
  If I become more emotionally mature and grounded, it does not mean that I will
• 25:56
  never react in an immature way again, but it will become not as much of the norm.
• 26:02
  So, when I do react in this emotionally immature way, I can say,
• 26:06
  wow, okay, that hit something. What's that about?
• 26:08
  It gives me an opportunity to dig a little deeper inside, self-confront,
• 26:12
  see what I can make sense of out of this.
• 26:14
  Now, this I think is the meat of what we're going to talk about today.
• 26:17
  Let's talk about childlike behaviors that show up in adult bodies,
• 26:22
  because I think these childhood patterns do become the blueprint of our adult behaviors.
• 26:28
  Now, when I started as a therapist, I determined that I would stay in the here and now.
• 26:35
  I felt like looking back at her childhood, felt like making excuses.
• 26:38
  And I remember thinking whenever I would see therapists in movies or in TV shows
• 26:42
  asking the cliched questions like, tell me about your mom or take me back to
• 26:46
  your childhood, I would think, no, I will not be doing that.
• 26:49
  I am going to stay in the present in the here and now. I will be that therapist.
• 26:52
  Of course, having no idea what I didn't know that I didn't know.
• 26:56
  But it did not take long for reality to set in because patterns became very
• 27:00
  clear. They were too consistent to ignore.
• 27:03
  I remember learning about psychodynamic therapy. This is the therapy that was
• 27:07
  built from Sigmund Freud himself.
• 27:10
  And I'm not saying that I am a practicing psychodynamic therapist.
• 27:13
  As a matter of fact, what I love is when I was in grad school,
• 27:15
  you started to recognize that you did not have to pick a discipline or a modality,
• 27:21
  but you became more, I think it was nuanced, eclectic, organic,
• 27:25
  dynamic, all those different words.
• 27:28
  But psychodynamic therapy, it's this approach that recognizes how our past experiences,
• 27:33
  how our past experiences, especially those from childhood, continue to influence
• 27:37
  the things we do in our present behaviors, relationships, our emotional responses.
• 27:42
  And it explores the, and what I think is, this is the key, the unconscious patterns
• 27:48
  that drive our actions, that create these deeply rutted neuropathways.
• 27:52
  And then it helps bring awareness to these hidden influences.
• 27:55
  The reason why we react, you can think of it this way.
• 27:58
  Imagine your mind as a house where you live and you live primarily on the main
• 28:03
  floor. That is your conscious awareness.
• 28:05
  But below there is a basement or your unconscious or the subconscious.
• 28:11
  And in this basement, there's probably some spiders, some things like that.
• 28:15
  But that's where the electrical panels, the plumbing systems,
• 28:18
  the hot water heater, the foundation are located.
• 28:20
  Now, when lights in your house flicker or pipes leak upstairs,
• 28:24
  the problem often originates in these systems that you cannot immediately see.
• 28:28
  So psychodynamic therapy is kind of like following the leaks or the electrical
• 28:32
  issues or the reason there's no hot water to the source down in the basement.
• 28:36
  I have to get around a couple of spiders and rather than just patching the visible damage upstairs.
• 28:41
  A psychodynamic therapist might help somebody who constantly sabotages promising
• 28:46
  relationships by guiding them to recognize that maybe it's their fear of abandonment
• 28:51
  and that that could stem from their dad's unpredictable presence in childhood
• 28:54
  or their anxious attachment could occur because when they wanted validation
• 28:58
  from mom, she was unavailable and overwhelmed.
• 29:01
  But when she needed to feel better about herself, she said, come give mom a hug.
• 29:04
  And so now the very thing that the person wants is for somebody to pay attention
• 29:08
  to them all of a sudden feels overwhelming and you feel flooded.
• 29:11
  So you find yourself pursuing the person that is not interested in you.
• 29:15
  So the therapist doesn't just address the current relationship issues,
• 29:19
  but they would help this person understand how these childhood experiences created
• 29:23
  this unconscious pattern that now automatically activates in these relationships.
• 29:28
  So I think it really becomes pretty necessary to explore your childhood.
• 29:34
  Because when we talk about emotional immaturity, what we're essentially doing
• 29:38
  is we're discussing this arrested development and not talking about the sitcom
• 29:43
  from back in the day, but Arrested Development, meaning I'm talking about places
• 29:46
  where our emotional growth got stuck.
• 29:49
  And these stuck points almost always connect to childhood experiences where
• 29:54
  we developed these adaptive strategies that helped us navigate these difficult situations.
• 30:00
  What we started to do is we absorbed models of behavior from our caregivers.
• 30:04
  And we started to form these core beliefs about ourselves, about others,
• 30:08
  about the world. and without being able to examine these childhood origins,
• 30:13
  now we're just left treating symptoms instead of the causes.
• 30:17
  It's like you're trying to treat a rash without identifying the potential thing
• 30:23
  or allergen that causes the rash.
• 30:25
  And the examples from my clients just illustrate this perfectly over and over again.
• 30:30
  And I've got a couple that just have happened recently. One is a father who
• 30:35
  told me that he put his child in the corner.
• 30:39
  When his child was acting out or being mean. And he said, I realized that I
• 30:44
  was following a blueprint that had been handed to me from my dad.
• 30:47
  And at first, he didn't question the effectiveness or even the appropriateness
• 30:52
  of it until he actually started to examine it in therapy.
• 30:56
  And he realized that is something that he said was completely unproductive for him as a kid.
• 31:01
  And all he learned how to do was sit in that corner and just.
• 31:05
  Not feel good about himself or his relationship with his parents.
• 31:08
  And he learned to just do his time.
• 31:10
  And another example that was very recent was a client whose parents used hot sauce as punishment.
• 31:16
  If he said something that they said was naughty, they would make him eat hot sauce.
• 31:21
  This was just a kid that was responding to things in real time as a kid.
• 31:26
  They were just reactions.
• 31:28
  And now when he started to do that, he was operating from this unexamined childhood
• 31:33
  script, not because he consciously believed it was effective because he knew
• 31:38
  it wasn't, but it was familiar.
• 31:40
  And I think what's really fascinating is that these childhood experiences,
• 31:43
  they're not even stored as logical memories, but as these emotional templates.
• 31:49
  That inner child isn't holding on to the memory of standing in the corner or
• 31:54
  tasting hot sauce to remind you what to do when your kids misbehave.
• 31:58
  I really think that it's holding on to those memories because it actually needs healing.
• 32:03
  It needs the adult version of you to recognize that was not cool.
• 32:07
  That was not very appropriate.
• 32:09
  That wasn't fair to little me. As a matter of fact, I don't ever have to eat
• 32:12
  hot sauce again in my whole life.
• 32:14
  And it's only when we start to shine a light on these childhood patterns that
• 32:18
  we can start to make these conscious choices rather than these unconscious repetitions,
• 32:22
  which I think so many of us are just doing.
• 32:24
  And we think that it's just normal. It's okay.
• 32:27
  But we can't change what we don't acknowledge, what we don't shine light on.
• 32:31
  And this is why I think despite my early resistance, I now believe deeply in
• 32:35
  asking that cliche question.
• 32:38
  Tell me more about that. Tell me about your childhood. Tell me about your mom.
• 32:42
  Tell me about your dad. It's not as an excuse.
• 32:46
  It's like an archaeological dig to understand this blueprint from where you've
• 32:52
  been unconsciously building your whole adult life. It is the roadmap to these
• 32:57
  deeply rutted neuropathways so that we can start to dig new ones.
• 33:01
  The most profound parenting work often happens when we finally start to honestly parent ourselves.
• 33:07
  And when we give our inner child this understanding, compassion,
• 33:10
  and these appropriate responses that they really never received.
• 33:14
  And I'm going to give our parents credit for not knowing what they didn't know.
• 33:17
  Or dealing with things the way that they thought that they needed to be dealt with.
• 33:21
  When we reparent ourselves with this grace, with this love, with this compassion,
• 33:27
  then we can truly start to offer our own children something different.
• 33:32
  There's a book I really enjoyed. I highly recommend it. It's fiction and it's
• 33:35
  called The Silent Patient.
• 33:37
  It was written by an author, and I'm probably going to butcher their last name, but Alex Michelades.
• 33:41
  And the author followed that up with another book I really enjoyed,
• 33:44
  which was not as much about institutions or therapy or set in that kind of an environment.
• 33:51
  But still, the way that the author
• 33:53
  weaves in therapeutic concepts into the story, I think is brilliant.
• 33:57
  There's a main character who he shares the character's experience going to therapy.
• 34:02
  The book's called The Fury, and I did enjoy the story. But what drew me in was
• 34:06
  his description of therapy through one of the characters.
• 34:09
  Here's what that character said. I think it fits in so well with what we're talking about today.
• 34:13
  So the character said, my therapist was called Mariana. I remember one,
• 34:17
  she said something chilling.
• 34:18
  It messed up my head for a long time. Looking back, I think it changed my entire life.
• 34:23
  When we are young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated,
• 34:26
  something happens. Time stops. It freezes at that moment.
• 34:29
  A version of us is trapped at that age forever.
• 34:32
  A frightened child is hiding in your mind, and it's still unsafe.
• 34:36
  It's still unheard, and it's unloved. And the sooner you get in touch with that
• 34:40
  child and then communicate with them, the more harmonious your life will be.
• 34:44
  Here's the good part. After all, that's what he grew you for, isn't it?
• 34:49
  A strong adult body to look after him and his interests, to take care of him,
• 34:53
  to protect him. You were meant to liberate him, but instead,
• 34:57
  you ended up becoming his jailer.
• 35:00
  That hit me so deep when I heard that quote in this book, because I think it
• 35:05
  just beautifully illustrates this process of emotional development.
• 35:09
  Because those moments of childhood, the fear, the shame, the humiliation,
• 35:13
  they literally freeze a part of us in time.
• 35:16
  And we then have to develop these brilliant adaptive strategies as a kid to
• 35:22
  navigate those painful experiences.
• 35:24
  But as we grow into our adult bodies, those same strategies,
• 35:27
  they don't evolve with us. that frightened child remains and it's running old
• 35:31
  programs, but now it's in new situations.
• 35:34
  So what becomes really fascinating is how these frozen moments start to manifest
• 35:39
  in adult relationships.
• 35:40
  The child who learned to people please to avoid conflict becomes the adult who can't set boundaries.
• 35:46
  Or the child who learned to shut down emotions becomes the partner who can't
• 35:50
  express vulnerability.
• 35:51
  The child who needed constant reassurance becomes the adult who seeks endless external validation.
• 35:57
  So, in my case, I think I'm batting three for three.
• 36:01
  And I think this is exactly what we mean when we talk about emotional immaturity.
• 36:04
  It is not a character flaw.
• 36:06
  It's a natural part of development. And parts of us are literally operating
• 36:11
  from the emotional understanding of a much younger version of ourself.
• 36:17
  So, I want to spend a moment and really explore what these childlike behaviors,
• 36:21
  how they appear in adult bodies.
• 36:24
  You know, what were once these brilliant survival adaptations now have become
• 36:29
  roadblocks to our relationships.
• 36:31
  And the first step toward growth isn't rejecting the patterns.
• 36:35
  It isn't a what's wrong with me, but it's more of a compassionate recognition
• 36:39
  of how those things have served us in the hope that we can begin to let them go.
• 36:44
  Basically like a thanks junior version of me. Good looking out.
• 36:48
  You meant well. And I can't even believe how hard that must have been.
• 36:52
  I can't imagine how hard that must have been to try to navigate this as a little kid.
• 36:57
  So when we look at emotional development, certain behaviors definitely serve children well.
• 37:01
  But let's look at how they do show up in our relationships.
• 37:05
  So let's explore these childlike behaviors that appear in our adult bodies.
• 37:12
  Because remembering that these were once brilliant survival adaptations,
• 37:16
  and now they become roadblocks to your relationship. And I think that very first
• 37:21
  step toward growth is not to shame yourself for these patterns.
• 37:25
  It's not to reject these patterns. But I think what it really requires is to
• 37:30
  have some compassionate recognition of how these behaviors served us.
• 37:35
  And I think that's in the hope that we can then thank them, acknowledge them,
• 37:41
  and then start to let them go.
• 37:44
  When we look at emotional development, I think there are certain behaviors that
• 37:47
  really are there to serve us well as children, but then they become these relationship
• 37:53
  roadblocks when we become adults.
• 37:58
  Because I want to just very quickly speak to something I am just so, so passionate about.
• 38:03
  And that is, I really believe, and maybe it's just my world that I live in as
• 38:08
  a therapist, my own personal experiences, but we are just now starting to really
• 38:12
  figure out what to do with our emotions.
• 38:14
  They weren't welcome in our childhood.
• 38:17
  And I just think it's because it just was. That's how things were.
• 38:21
  Our parents didn't know what they didn't know. We certainly don't know what
• 38:24
  we don't know. We're playing out these relationships that we saw modeled.
• 38:29
  But when you're a kid, even the very best of parent, when a kid emotes,
• 38:35
  when something happens, when they scrape their knee, when they get angry about
• 38:38
  something, when they don't get something they want and they express emotion.
• 38:42
  Even a good parent says, hey, hey, calm down.
• 38:45
  Or you can't talk to me like that. Or that's not okay.
• 38:49
  Or it's not a big deal. You'll get over it.
• 38:52
  Don't worry about it. How do you think that makes me feel? What role did you
• 38:56
  play? Are you sure that it wasn't your fault?
• 39:00
  And so the kid, instead of being validated and allowing them to feel,
• 39:04
  man, it looks like you have some big feelings or it looks like you are sad or
• 39:08
  angry or tell me how you're feeling right now.
• 39:11
  Get a feelings wheel out for Pete's sake and point to it or one of those charts
• 39:16
  that shows all the happy face, the sad face, the angry face and saying,
• 39:21
  point to me which one of these that you are feeling.
• 39:24
  So, the first step that I don't think any of us, I won't try to go all or nothing,
• 39:29
  maybe most people, weren't allowed to really explore what I am even feeling,
• 39:35
  where I am feeling it, what the story my brain is telling me it even is.
• 39:40
  Because over time, what we're hearing is your feelings are wrong.
• 39:45
  They are too much for me to handle.
• 39:47
  I need you to not have them and I need you to just stop doing what you're doing so I will feel better.
• 39:55
  So over time, the kid stops externalizing their emotions and they begin to internalize them.
• 40:00
  And what that speaks to is when that feeling comes up inside of them,
• 40:05
  stuff it down because it's probably wrong. You're going to bother somebody with it.
• 40:09
  And now you're all of a sudden hiding your emotions in order to make sure and
• 40:14
  manage someone else's experience.
• 40:17
  And so now you've got this inner child, this little kid that felt all these
• 40:20
  things and apparently is operating from this place where, and those things are
• 40:25
  probably wrong and I should not feel them. So, something is wrong with me.
• 40:30
  And if they finally boil up and come out, then I'm actually hoping that somebody
• 40:34
  tells me it's okay to feel that way, but here's what you need to do with it,
• 40:38
  even though that person doesn't know what it feels like to be you.
• 40:42
  So, we make these little imprints on our souls and our hearts, all these feelings do.
• 40:47
  And I go back to what that quote from the book, The Fury says,
• 40:51
  I really think that our inner child said, all right, I don't know how to handle
• 40:54
  this, but someday I'm going to guess that you're going to become that big kid
• 41:00
  like all the ones that you're seeing, your parents, those around you.
• 41:03
  And hopefully when you become that big kid, do me a favor and heal us because
• 41:07
  you're the only one that can truly do that.
• 41:10
  But somewhere we lose that, we didn't get the memo.
• 41:14
  And so we're still reacting to the world as that little kid.
• 41:17
  And instead, now is the time Even if you didn't have that support when you were
• 41:22
  young, it's time to find that support, to become that support for your inner child.
• 41:27
  It's time to heal. It's time to grow.
• 41:31
  Here comes the meat of today's episode. Let's talk about black or white thinking.
• 41:36
  Because children naturally see the world in these absolutes.
• 41:39
  Things are all good or they are all bad.
• 41:41
  And in adults, this then shows up or manifests itself as ultimatums,
• 41:46
  where people label their partners as always or never doing something.
• 41:51
  And then the relationship cycles between idealization of it is all good,
• 41:56
  or then devaluation, it is all bad.
• 42:00
  And when you start talking about the world of narcissistic traits or tendencies
• 42:04
  or even narcissistic personality disorder,
• 42:07
  a true narcissist lacks this concept of whole object relations,
• 42:10
  meaning that they see a person, an entity,
• 42:14
  you name it, as either all good or all bad, where having whole object relations
• 42:18
  is the ability to see a person or anything as an entire object.
• 42:22
  Where I can certainly be frustrated about something, but I can also appreciate something.
• 42:26
  I can love someone for the things that I love about them.
• 42:30
  I can also be frustrated with the way that they're showing up in a certain situation.
• 42:34
  And that goes back to this all or nothing black or white thinking.
• 42:37
  It's a default in us because it is easier. It's easier to just view someone all good, all bad.
• 42:44
  The problem is with the world of the emotionally immature, sure,
• 42:46
  if you are making me feel good, then you are good.
• 42:52
  But all of a sudden, if you say no, or you disagree with something, now you are all bad.
• 42:57
  Or think about somebody, I can think of this example of a client who ended a
• 43:02
  very long friendship after one argument with someone.
• 43:06
  And then at that point, they said, you know what, you never supported me anyway.
• 43:10
  And that's the kind of person that might label somebody either as completely
• 43:14
  trustworthy, or now all of a sudden they're total backstabbers and there's nothing in between.
• 43:18
  And I think if you really interact with someone that's pretty narcissistic or
• 43:22
  very high in the emotionally immature category, they often...
• 43:29
  Think that somebody that comes into their life, a caregiver,
• 43:32
  someone at a restaurant, it could be even food, is this is the very best I've ever had.
• 43:37
  This person is the nicest person I've ever interacted with.
• 43:39
  And then over time, now if someone at that restaurant didn't treat them well,
• 43:44
  or if this caregiver didn't show up when they said they would,
• 43:47
  or they did not support what this person wants in their care,
• 43:51
  now all of a sudden that person,
• 43:53
  I've never liked them. They were bad the entire time.
• 43:56
  I deal a lot in the world of faith crisis, faith deconstruction.
• 44:00
  And this is a, I call it the burning down the village behind you theory,
• 44:04
  where when someone then starts to deconstruct their faith or move away from
• 44:08
  their faith tradition or even their church,
• 44:10
  instead of being able to see it as an entire object, you know,
• 44:14
  there were things that I appreciated.
• 44:16
  These were good things, but these are things I no longer, they don't serve me
• 44:19
  or they actually cause some damage to me.
• 44:22
  That's more emotionally mature as a way to look at something versus if now I
• 44:27
  don't like it anymore, then it is all bad and it was bad the entire time.
• 44:32
  In parenting, you might be a parent who swings between I'm failing at everything
• 44:36
  and then I am the perfect parent based off of a single good or bad day or even
• 44:40
  a good or bad interaction with your kid.
• 44:43
  This next one is one that I think is so fascinating and I am so guilty of this
• 44:47
  in very many areas and it is the concept of magical thinking.
• 44:50
  Now, how does this show up with kids? Children believe that their thoughts can
• 44:54
  influence external reality.
• 44:56
  Adults with this pattern might assume partners should just know what they want
• 45:00
  without communicating.
• 45:01
  That alone, well, you should know. It is magical thinking. I magically assume
• 45:07
  or think that you should know.
• 45:09
  And a lot of times, I think with an assumption comes an accusation.
• 45:14
  And now all of a sudden, there's a lot of negativity around that too.
• 45:17
  Well, you should have known. And now I'm accusing you of not knowing.
• 45:21
  And now I've made the judgment that you don't care.
• 45:24
  But another version of magical thinking is believing that avoiding difficult
• 45:29
  topics makes the problem disappear.
• 45:31
  And what I often see in relationships is this is where someone is just not working
• 45:36
  on the relationship, but they're just thinking that eventually it will become better.
• 45:41
  I'm here. And so, at some point, I just assume that things will just,
• 45:45
  they will be If we look back at the term magical thinking,
• 45:49
  it is a bit of a magical thought that the thing that we're struggling with right now,
• 45:55
  let's say we don't know how to communicate, we can't talk about difficult subjects,
• 45:59
  that now magically it will just disappear and we won't feel the way we feel
• 46:03
  and everything will be better.
• 46:06
  Magical thinking. You should have known, or if we ignore it, it will just get better.
• 46:12
  I'm going to kick that can down the road. I think it's easy to think of examples of this.
• 46:16
  Think of somebody who believes their partner should just intuitively know that
• 46:18
  they're upset without communicating and then feels increasingly resentful when
• 46:23
  their unspoken needs aren't met.
• 46:24
  Or somebody who avoids checking their bank account, hypothetically,
• 46:28
  somehow believing that if I don't look, then that will prevent financial problems.
• 46:34
  One that I see so often, and I am still guilty to this day, is I don't really enjoy opening my mail.
• 46:41
  So if I don't open it, then there will never be any problems again.
• 46:46
  Children naturally believe their thoughts can influence the external world because
• 46:49
  their cognitive development hasn't yet separated their internal experiences
• 46:53
  from the external reality.
• 46:55
  When a four-year-old says, okay, I close my eyes, you can't see me.
• 46:59
  Or they believe that their wishes directly cause events, they are exhibiting
• 47:03
  healthy developmental magical thinking for that age.
• 47:07
  Now, we're supposed to outgrow this as we develop a cause and effect understanding,
• 47:10
  but a lot of adults still operate from this framework in emotional situations.
• 47:15
  And dare I say, we can even see things where we still go, this is where I think it's so fascinating.
• 47:20
  We go to this place where, okay, if I step on a crack, something will happen.
• 47:25
  If I don't repeat something a few times, then there's going to be something
• 47:28
  negative that happens to somebody in my family.
• 47:30
  So, that magical thinking is still there. And I think part of what we're trying
• 47:34
  to do today is just acknowledge that that made sense when we were young.
• 47:38
  It was adaptive to our circumstances, and now it has become maladaptive.
• 47:44
  Another one, emotional reasoning. Children believe, if I feel it,
• 47:48
  it's got to be true. What does that look like with adults?
• 47:52
  I feel abandoned. Therefore, you are abandoning me.
• 47:55
  And this could be even when evidence shows that there is no abandonment happening.
• 48:01
  There is no abandonment going on.
• 48:03
  And what I think is so fascinating about this one is that it really can look like this in a session.
• 48:10
  Someone just says, I don't know, I just don't really feel good about this situation.
• 48:13
  I don't feel good about what you are doing.
• 48:15
  And so, I need you to make me feel better. Now, I don't even know why I don't feel good about it.
• 48:21
  But if you don't make me feel better, then I get to say that you don't care about me.
• 48:26
  And then inside, I might say, and what's wrong with me that this person doesn't care?
• 48:30
  I think that this one's really difficult because...
• 48:34
  When we are codependent, when we are enmeshed in our relationship,
• 48:37
  which I believe most all relationships start from a place of codependency and
• 48:42
  enmeshment because we are trying to just show up and be the very best version
• 48:45
  of ourselves in hopes that this person will love me, that they won't leave me.
• 48:50
  And we will justify a little bit of that magical thinking that later everything
• 48:54
  will just be fine. It will be better later.
• 48:57
  So now when somebody does say, I don't feel good, I don't like the way that
• 49:01
  you're handling this, then this is where the people pleaser comes in.
• 49:05
  The young child, our inner child says, okay, just tell me whatever I need to do to make you happy.
• 49:09
  I'll take ownership of something that I really don't believe has happened.
• 49:12
  You just let me know what I need to do. So in that scenario,
• 49:16
  even I put that back on you to then, hey, tell me what you think I need to do to make you feel better.
• 49:22
  And I'm literally showing you that I will do whatever I can,
• 49:25
  even if it goes against my own sense of self or autonomy to try to make you feel better right now.
• 49:33
  Not too long ago, I had such a fascinating example of this.
• 49:36
  So, changing up things, of course, to protect confidentiality,
• 49:39
  but I had someone who was involved in a business relationship with another person
• 49:44
  and they weren't even aware of what had happened behind the scenes in this business situation.
• 49:50
  So, when they were finally able to confront the other person,
• 49:54
  the other person said, yeah, I've sensed the tension.
• 49:58
  I knew that something's been off between us for a long time.
• 50:01
  But what was fascinating about that is that the person that brought awareness
• 50:05
  to what they had just learned about what had been happening over time in this
• 50:11
  business relationship, that person did not know that anything was off.
• 50:16
  So, they actually thought that everything was fine.
• 50:19
  But now when they bring awareness to that, to this other person that they found
• 50:23
  out had not been showing up, maybe we'll say operating from a place of integrity.
• 50:29
  In a business situation, that person said, oh, I have felt like something has
• 50:34
  been off between us for quite a while.
• 50:36
  Well, that was, they felt like something had been off. So then it must be that
• 50:42
  they are both thinking that.
• 50:43
  They're projecting that onto them. I feel bad. So then, of course,
• 50:48
  that means that you are also aware that there's something awkward here.
• 50:51
  That other person was not aware. So that was very much a them issue.
• 50:56
  The person who had done something that was not from a place of integrity in
• 51:01
  this business relationship, but had not taken ownership of it,
• 51:04
  which we'll actually talk about here in just a few minutes.
• 51:08
  Or think of somebody who cancels plans with friends because,
• 51:11
  you know, I feel like they don't really want me there anyway,
• 51:13
  despite clear evidence to the contrary.
• 51:15
  Or somebody who feels intense jealousy when their partner mentions a coworker,
• 51:18
  and that'll start to create this relationship tension based entirely on an internal
• 51:22
  feeling rather than objective reality.
• 51:24
  Once you see it, it is really hard to unsee.
• 51:27
  It'll sound a lot like, well, I don't want you to think that I am angry,
• 51:32
  so I didn't say this thing.
• 51:34
  Well, give me a chance to feel. I might not feel angry. I might actually feel
• 51:39
  good about whatever you're doing.
• 51:41
  It starts to get really complex. Well, I didn't want to tell this person that
• 51:44
  because I was worried that they would think this. And I don't want them to think
• 51:47
  that. And I don't want them to get mad.
• 51:49
  And I mean this with love and kindness and all due respect. But that is...
• 51:55
  Also dipping into that magical thinking that I have this power and I can control
• 52:00
  everyone's emotional experiences.
• 52:02
  But in reality, emotional maturity is I need to be willing and able to allow
• 52:08
  people to have their own emotional experiences.
• 52:11
  I'm worried that you might get mad. Well, I appreciate that worry,
• 52:15
  but give me a chance because I may not be mad.
• 52:18
  Or if I am going to get mad, that's a me issue. And that might be the exact
• 52:22
  thing I need to start to grow or to really self-confront and see why does that make me mad?
• 52:30
  External validation. Children need constant reassurance from caregivers.
• 52:34
  So in adults, this leads to excessive approval seeking. It's difficulty maintaining
• 52:38
  your self-worth without continued affirmation, without continued validation.
• 52:43
  An easy one here is think of somebody who posts on social media,
• 52:46
  they check their likes compulsively and their mood is directly tied to the response.
• 52:51
  Or somebody who changes their opinion based on whoever they're talking to.
• 52:54
  They adapt almost like this chameleon to gain approval rather than expressing their authentic views.
• 53:00
  What I've been having my couples do for a little while now is any chance you
• 53:04
  get, whether it's a movie or a TV show or a meal,
• 53:07
  that if you need to type it in your phone, write down what your opinion is,
• 53:12
  and then almost this one, two, three, share it.
• 53:16
  Instead of saying, I don't know, what'd you think? Oh, I didn't really like
• 53:18
  it. Yeah, me neither. or I really liked it. I kind of did too.
• 53:22
  And I think that's a great place to practice that it's okay to have your own
• 53:26
  thoughts and your own opinion.
• 53:28
  And that is getting your reps in of trying to figure out who you are.
• 53:33
  It's okay to have your own thoughts, opinions, emotions, feelings.
• 53:37
  Another one is difficulty with accountability. Children instinctively,
• 53:41
  they protect themselves by denying responsibility.
• 53:44
  Gaslighting is a childhood defense mechanism. So now in adults,
• 53:48
  This shows up as blame shifting, as defensiveness, as gaslighting and an inability
• 53:52
  to offer genuine apology.
• 53:55
  Because going back to this concept of gaslighting as a childhood defense mechanism to a kid,
• 54:00
  if they did not see parents that were modeling apologies or
• 54:04
  taking ownership of the their own behaviors then to the kid it's coming across
• 54:09
  as if i admit this or if i get in trouble then i may be booted out of the family
• 54:15
  or i'm going to be punished and that's the last thing that a kid wants to feel
• 54:19
  like they are getting life wrong.
• 54:22
  So they will just sit this one
• 54:25
  out and hopes that the storm will pass of emotion and then they survived.
• 54:29
  Or if I say I didn't do it and I blame it on somebody else,
• 54:33
  literally like the dog ate my homework and I stick to that story,
• 54:37
  I stick to my guns and that passes,
• 54:40
  then I am learning that that is something that definitely helped me adapt as
• 54:45
  a child, and it's very maladaptive in your adult relationships.
• 54:49
  You can think of somebody who responds to feedback at work by immediately listing
• 54:52
  all the ways that others contributed to the problem.
• 54:55
  Or somebody who says, hey, I'm sorry you feel that way, instead of I'm sorry
• 54:59
  that I did that, when they've hurt their partner or subtly hurt the person that's
• 55:04
  responsible for their own pain.
• 55:06
  And I will say, and we'll save this for another episode, as you become more
• 55:11
  emotionally mature, as you start to know who you are, there are two versions
• 55:15
  of I am sorry that you feel that way.
• 55:18
  There's a, I'm sorry you feel that way, passive aggressive, that's a you issue and that's not my fault.
• 55:23
  And there really is a, I am truly sorry that you feel that way about something
• 55:28
  that I said or something that I did. And it isn't that I'm not taking ownership of it.
• 55:32
  I'm genuinely very sorry. And I want to take a look at what I said and why you
• 55:36
  feel the way you do, but let's do this in a collaborative effort.
• 55:41
  Another one that is just, you cannot unsee this and that is mind reading.
• 55:46
  Children assume that others see the world exactly as they do.
• 55:50
  And adults with this pattern, they make assumptions about their partner's intentions
• 55:53
  without checking. And they feel hurt when unstated expectations aren't met.
• 55:58
  You can think of somebody who arrives home angry because their partner didn't
• 56:01
  text during the day, having created a complete narrative about the partner's
• 56:04
  indifference without checking.
• 56:06
  They must have not cared. And now I'm coming home and I know their intentions,
• 56:09
  even if they're not willing to admit it themselves.
• 56:12
  So this one, it's mind reading. also has a little bit of magical thinking,
• 56:15
  or somebody who withdraws affection as punishment, assuming their partner knows
• 56:19
  exactly what they did wrong without having a discussion.
• 56:22
  And I think this just connects so well to the concept of projection,
• 56:25
  because in projection, we attribute our own unacknowledged feelings or our thoughts to others.
• 56:31
  So when we're feeling insecure, then we might mind read that our partner is judging us.
• 56:35
  Or when we're feeling guilty about something, we might know our partner is disappointed in us.
• 56:40
  Mind reading creates this concept of a double bind. We react to what we imagine
• 56:44
  the other person thinks, which creates then the very tension that we feared.
• 56:49
  One or two more. Poor emotional boundaries. Children naturally merge their identity with their caregiver.
• 56:55
  Again, they get their sense of self from external validation.
• 56:57
  Now, in adult relationships, this will manifest as taking responsibility for
• 57:01
  other people's feelings or making others responsible for yours.
• 57:04
  You can think of somebody who falls apart when their partner's sad,
• 57:07
  taking on the emotion as if it was their very own emergency to fix.
• 57:10
  I'm so sorry. I can't believe you feel that way.
• 57:12
  I'm just so sorry. What can I do to help when their partner might just be expressing an emotion or.
• 57:19
  It goes back to the, I'm going to dump my frustration or my anger into the relationship
• 57:24
  and see who will pick it up. My spouse, my kids, somebody who expects their
• 57:28
  partner to manage their anxiety, saying things like, you know what happens when
• 57:31
  you bring up that topic? You are beginning to make me upset.
• 57:34
  So let me go back to what I shared earlier. Those moments of childhood,
• 57:37
  fear and shame or humiliation literally frees a part of us in time.
• 57:42
  And we develop these brilliant adaptive strategies and that helps us navigate
• 57:45
  these painful experiences. But as we grow into our adult bodies,
• 57:50
  those same strategies do not evolve with us.
• 57:52
  They served us well. We are literally still alive.
• 57:56
  But that frightened child remains and it's running these old programs in these new situations.
• 58:01
  Let me share something that happened recently in a therapy session.
• 58:04
  And I think this speaks to this concept in life.
• 58:07
  I was working with a couple and we were discussing these patterns that I just went over.
• 58:11
  And we were identifying those childhood behaviors that no longer serve them
• 58:14
  in their adult relationships.
• 58:16
  Now, one partner was actively engaged and they were recognizing a lot of these patterns from the list.
• 58:20
  But when I turned to the other partner and I asked what came up for them,
• 58:23
  they just simply said, I don't know. And they seemed to just check out.
• 58:27
  So I gently asked, hey, what are you feeling right now? What is coming up for
• 58:32
  you? And I really felt like what they shared was pretty profound.
• 58:35
  This person said, honestly, I feel like I'm back in my high school chemistry class.
• 58:39
  And the teacher would call on me unexpectedly. And I never knew really what
• 58:43
  the answer was that they were looking for. and I just felt like I was in trouble.
• 58:46
  There was a right answer, but I didn't know it. And I feel that way right now.
• 58:51
  So, we dug a little deeper and as we explored a little further,
• 58:54
  they revealed that this wasn't just about chemistry throughout childhood.
• 58:58
  Questions from their authority figures, such as parents, teachers,
• 59:01
  coaches, Sunday school teachers, they never felt like they were neutral or like
• 59:06
  they could just express themselves and what they were thinking or feeling.
• 59:10
  Questions felt like tests that had right and wrong answers and wrong answers meant shame.
• 59:15
  You are bad. You should have known this. So this person we identified developed
• 59:20
  an adaptive strategy, silence.
• 59:23
  You know, the magical thinking was if I don't say anything, they'll either move
• 59:26
  on or eventually they will provide the answer they want. And then I can pretend
• 59:31
  that's what I was thinking.
• 59:33
  It's a brilliant childhood adaptation with a child that doesn't even, they're just existing.
• 59:39
  They're just trying to figure out how to survive, but they would freeze to avoid
• 59:44
  shame. And now that was showing up in the marriage.
• 59:47
  So whenever their partner asked their opinion or wanted to discuss something
• 59:50
  important, they would mentally check out just like they did in my office.
• 59:53
  So what had protected them from
• 59:55
  criticism as children was now preventing authentic connection as an adult.
• 59:58
  And I think this is exactly what we mean when we're talking about emotional
• 1:00:01
  immaturity, that it is not a character flaw.
• 1:00:04
  It's a natural part of development. Parts of us are literally operating from
• 1:00:07
  the emotional understanding of a very young version of ourself.
• 1:00:12
  These childlike behaviors. They show up in our adult bodies and they were wonderful
• 1:00:17
  survival adaptations, but now they're roadblocks to the relationship.
• 1:00:21
  And growth is not about rejecting the patterns, but it's about having a compassionate
• 1:00:25
  recognition of how they served us.
• 1:00:28
  Let's change gears a bit. Some people may think that the internet is sending
• 1:00:32
  the whole world to heck in a hand basket.
• 1:00:34
  And then you Google something so obscure and you find it that you realize that
• 1:00:39
  despite all the calamity in the world, there's still hope.
• 1:00:42
  And that hope has a name and it has been found on the Reader Rabbit Wiki.
• 1:00:47
  More specifically, Reader Rabbit's preschool, Let's Start Learning.
• 1:00:50
  The year was either 1997 or 1998. and the pattern parade was accessed by clicking
• 1:00:57
  on the pattern parade banner or by popping these balloons that then Ben,
• 1:01:01
  the adorable aunt, is holding outside.
• 1:01:04
  Now the player then has to create patterns by moving animals.
• 1:01:06
  They're dressed in different colors.
• 1:01:08
  They play a variety of instruments into various positions on the parade line.
• 1:01:13
  I played this a lot for my kids. Sure. I kind of enjoyed it.
• 1:01:19
  Now the completed parade will then play their respective instruments and then
• 1:01:22
  walk-off screen before being replaced by another set of animals.
• 1:01:26
  And yes, there is a website that not only tells you this, but also shows you
• 1:01:29
  all the various instruments and animals involved, but I digress.
• 1:01:32
  But let's talk about pattern recognition, or this is why we choose the familiar over the healthy.
• 1:01:39
  A client recently came to therapy and they joked about feeling nauseated when
• 1:01:42
  hearing the common idea that we marry our parents.
• 1:01:45
  During our sessions, we explored what I call the familiar, how we're drawn to
• 1:01:50
  relationship dynamics that echo our childhood experiences.
• 1:01:52
  This client grew up with parents who never really saw him.
• 1:01:56
  They weren't curious about his life, and they either dismissed his experiences
• 1:01:59
  or compared them unfavorably to their own. They did everything better than he did.
• 1:02:03
  The only validation he received came from major achievements.
• 1:02:06
  So, he ended up marrying someone who, while so different than his mom,
• 1:02:12
  he realized recreates this same emotional dynamic.
• 1:02:15
  A quiet, avoidantly attached woman who doesn't show curiosity about him and
• 1:02:19
  then often misinterprets his interest in her activities as criticism.
• 1:02:23
  And he finds himself attempting to increasingly up the ante,
• 1:02:28
  perform these grand gestures to gain her recognition, just like he used to do with his parents.
• 1:02:33
  And the pattern became even clearer when he mentioned that he had had this college
• 1:02:37
  girlfriend who was deeply attentive and interested in him, which he now has
• 1:02:43
  acknowledged that just felt too uncomfortable.
• 1:02:45
  She was too much. So he ended that relationship, despite sometimes now wondering,
• 1:02:50
  is that the level of connection that I really needed or desired.
• 1:02:54
  So, what felt familiar to him was this emotional invisibility and the need to
• 1:02:59
  perform to get attention, not the superficial personality traits.
• 1:03:02
  And I think this concept is fascinating and it's really relevant to emotional maturity.
• 1:03:07
  Okay, so let's talk about this pull of familiarity because our brains,
• 1:03:13
  they desperately want certainty.
• 1:03:15
  They are prediction engines. They are pattern recognition machines.
• 1:03:19
  So, what we experienced in childhood becomes literally wired into our neural pathways as normal.
• 1:03:26
  And that creates our attachment template. So, even when these patterns cause
• 1:03:31
  pain, they feel kind of bizarrely comfortable because they're predictable.
• 1:03:37
  They're the familiar. Our brain knows exactly how to navigate them.
• 1:03:41
  And I believe this ties into that acceptance and commitment therapy principle
• 1:03:44
  where our brain, bless its little pink squishy heart, is it's not always the
• 1:03:49
  smartest thing in the world because it thinks it's operating from this finite
• 1:03:54
  amount of electrical activity.
• 1:03:55
  So, it continually wants to habitualize things and use less energy and less
• 1:03:59
  electrical activity under this belief that we'll live forever.
• 1:04:03
  That is adorable because it keeps us though from doing things that actually
• 1:04:07
  would give us a sense of purpose and help us live a more connected,
• 1:04:11
  in a more fulfilling life.
• 1:04:13
  But part of this as well is a thing that I think is fascinating.
• 1:04:17
  It's called Freud's repetition compulsion.
• 1:04:19
  We're talking about Sigmund Freud. And.
• 1:04:22
  I think a lot of modern psychology can debunk some Freud things.
• 1:04:26
  So, we're just talking about this as a muse. It's pretty interesting.
• 1:04:29
  But Freud observed that people unconsciously recreate these painful situations from their past.
• 1:04:34
  And what his theory was that we do this because we're attempting to master past
• 1:04:40
  traumas by recreating them in hopes of then having a different outcome.
• 1:04:44
  And then it will go away. So, he's saying that the unconscious mind continues
• 1:04:48
  to work through unresolved conflicts by repeating them.
• 1:04:52
  And the belief is that there's this primitive comfort in the familiar.
• 1:04:56
  Again, we know what that's like, even if it's painful.
• 1:05:00
  And even some modern neuroscience has validated a lot of this,
• 1:05:05
  that our brains are drawn to recreate what they know, regardless of whether or not it's healthy.
• 1:05:10
  It's as if that healthy is, it's a judgment call that the brain is not really
• 1:05:13
  willing to make. This is just what we do.
• 1:05:16
  So if I go back to this example with my client, then his childhood conditioning
• 1:05:21
  showed that his parents didn't truly see him. They had this lack of attunement.
• 1:05:26
  He received validation only for the things he did, performance,
• 1:05:29
  achievement, and he experienced a very consistent emotional dismissal.
• 1:05:34
  So what does he do with his adult relationship choice? He married someone who,
• 1:05:38
  despite the superficial differences from his mom, recreates,
• 1:05:42
  for better or worse, that same emotional dynamic.
• 1:05:46
  Where he feels fundamentally unseen and unheard. He believes that he has to
• 1:05:50
  perform to receive recognition.
• 1:05:52
  And then he experiences this misinterpretation of him trying to be authentic
• 1:05:58
  and share as if he is criticizing.
• 1:06:01
  I think this is really the essence of familiarity trumping health.
• 1:06:07
  So, even though he's consciously joking about, quote, marrying his mom,
• 1:06:11
  I think his nervous system, though, unconsciously sought what it recognized
• 1:06:15
  as this is relationship. This is familiar.
• 1:06:18
  This is the feeling of striving for connection while being fundamentally unseen.
• 1:06:23
  And that girlfriend who was too into him represented the unfamiliar.
• 1:06:28
  Even though he could tell himself, that's what I want, it was so uncomfortable
• 1:06:31
  that his nervous system literally didn't have the wiring to process and feel
• 1:06:35
  comfortable with being genuinely seen and valued without performance or even at all.
• 1:06:41
  So, the unfamiliar, even though it was healthy, felt threatening because we
• 1:06:45
  don't have established neural pathways to navigate it.
• 1:06:48
  And I think this pattern shows what we're talking about today,
• 1:06:52
  the emotional immaturity, that it's not a character flaw, but it's a natural
• 1:06:56
  outcome of what we could call his attachment history, his childhood adaptation,
• 1:07:02
  performing for attention, was a brilliant survival strategy as a kid,
• 1:07:06
  but it keeps him locked in, unfulfilling patterns and unfulfilling relationships as an adult.
• 1:07:12
  So, what does his path toward emotional maturity look like?
• 1:07:16
  First, recognizing these patterns, these adaptations. They're not character
• 1:07:21
  flaws. There's nothing wrong with you.
• 1:07:22
  And then start to build tolerance for this anxiety of unfamiliar but healthy
• 1:07:27
  dynamics, the things we don't know that we don't know, the great unknown,
• 1:07:31
  and start creating these new neural pathways through consistent new experiences,
• 1:07:36
  growth through the discomfort.
• 1:07:38
  And I just think what's so powerful about this concept is just how it illustrates
• 1:07:41
  that we don't just marry a personality type.
• 1:07:44
  We probably marry a little bit of the emotional dynamics that recreate our most
• 1:07:47
  fundamental relationship patterns for better or for worse.
• 1:07:52
  So I have quite a bit more, but we're well over an hour at this point.
• 1:07:56
  So I think I want to wrap this up and we'll move into a part two.
• 1:07:58
  And what I love about doing a part two is that if you have thoughts or questions
• 1:08:02
  or comments or anything about this episode, please reach out to me at contact at TonyOverbay.com.
• 1:08:08
  And I'll maybe start the next episode off by answering some questions around
• 1:08:13
  what we've talked about here in the first part.
• 1:08:16
  Thank you so much for your support. I love the feedback. I really enjoy being
• 1:08:21
  able to put content out and help.
• 1:08:23
  And I so appreciate those of you who've taken the time to subscribe or follow
• 1:08:27
  or like, or go find me on YouTube or Instagram or TikTok.
• 1:08:30
  It is so much appreciated. Share this episode if you think it resonates and
• 1:08:33
  taking us out as Riley Hope.
• 1:08:35
  It's not my job. And we'll see you next time on Waking.
• 1:08:38
  Music.