Latest / The Virtual Couch / From Self-Judgment to Self-Compassion: A Guide to Emotional Resilience w/Nate and Marla Christensen

Transcript

From Self-Judgment to Self-Compassion: A Guide to Emotional Resilience w/Nate and Marla Christensen · The Virtual Couch

0:18
Hey, everybody.
0:19
Welcome to episode 431 of The Virtual Couch.
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I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and today I welcome Nate and
0:28
Marla Christensen onto The Virtual Couch, and we are going to talk about the concept
0:32
of self compassion, and you're going to probably hear a lot more from me About the
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topic of self compassion because there's a wonderful researcher named Kristen Neff
0:41
who has done 20 years of research now and we're going to talk about it today
0:46
on the podcast But the data is there that says actually being nice to yourself
0:51
we'll alleviate and eliminate so many problems that besiege us on a daily basis.
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And what I love so much about this is it really fits in nicely with
1:00
my favorite therapeutic modality in the world, acceptance and commitment
1:04
therapy, which starts from a place of that you are not broken.
1:08
You are human.
1:08
You're the only you that has ever walked on the face of the earth.
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So you think and feel the way you do because you do.
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So I think that lends nicely to giving yourself a lot of grace and having
1:19
compassion on not being perfect and not knowing what you don't know.
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So when people really do say to you things like, well, I
1:27
don't like that you did that.
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That's okay, because maybe I'm not even a big fan of it either.
1:32
But, it's the first time I've been me in this situation, and that's what I did.
1:36
So check that out.
1:37
Let me just jump right into the interview.
1:39
Before we get to that, I would love it if you would go to tonyoverbay.
1:43
com, sign up for the newsletter.
1:44
And follow me on social media, on Instagram at virtual.
1:47
couch and on, TikTok at virtual couch
1:50
or on Facebook and look out for the live question and answers that I've been doing
1:54
with my daughters, Sydney and McKinley.
1:56
, those are just highlights of the week.
1:58
Or actually, go find the Virtual Couch YouTube channel and there you can
2:03
see clips, there are YouTube shorts, as well as there's a YouTube video
2:08
of pretty much all of the podcasts.
2:09
So please go and subscribe to the Virtual Couch YouTube channel as
2:13
well And if you have questions, send them to contact at tonyoverbay.
2:16
com or you can go right to the contact form on my website and
2:20
I want your marriage questions.
2:22
I want your parenting questions.
2:23
I want your mental health questions.
2:24
And we'll answer those.
2:25
If not on those lives, I'll get those answered and we'll post
2:29
those clips somewhere, somewhere in the world of social media.
2:33
So thank you so much for joining me today.
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I don't think I say it at the end of the podcast, but I want to thank Aurora
2:38
Florence for her always amazing song.
2:39
It's wonderful.
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That will take us out.
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But now without any further ado, let me get to this interview with Marla and Nate
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Nate and Marla, welcome to the virtual couch.
2:48
Thanks for having us.
2:51
Okay.
2:53
I am very excited about this because we are talking about a a concept that you
2:59
guys sent me an article by Kristen Neff and I've been obsessed with this thing.
3:03
And it's currently one of these, how did I not know that these
3:07
concepts existed or were out there?
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And I don't know if you guys have already done a podcast on, and I want
3:12
you of course, to tell who you are, talk about your podcast and then.
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It, I, my immaturity Nate and I have done a couple of, group sessions where
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we have some people all together and they they go to talk about a podcast
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episode and it turns out it's about you guys and not me, which is fine.
3:27
That's okay.
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I still allow them to continue with therapy.
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But yeah, talk about your podcast, the one that maybe inspired this, who you guys
3:34
are, and then where are we going today?
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I will sit back, relax, and just Try to not make jokes because I really like
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what we're going to talk about today.
3:41
Go ahead, Nate.
3:42
Oh, I thought you were going to take it.
3:44
Okay.
3:45
So I am Nate Marla and I are both employees of yours.
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sounds, Yeah, yeah, but it is true.
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I'm an associate clinical counselor and Marla is both an associate
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clinical counselor and associate marriage and family therapist.
4:02
We see people for therapy and all sorts of different Reasons
4:07
and ailments and troubles.
4:08
We are located in Northern California.
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So we see people virtually and in person in Rocklin in our office the
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office that Marla is in right now.
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We have a little podcast.
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I call it little because it's Like barely a passion project.
4:25
We like doing it, but it's hard to find the time sometimes.
4:28
, we have not quite figured out the magic of scheduling that, that seems to work.
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So we do it when we can.
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Is
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that a Royal we like, do you agree with all that Marla?
4:39
What are, do you feel like you could figure out that scheduling?
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Not trying to get you guys in marital discord.
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It sounds like a confrontation here.
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Yes and no.
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How does that sound?
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That's really good.
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It's probably mostly me.
4:53
What?
4:53
Oh wait, that's weird.
4:55
Thank you, Nate.
4:57
No, it's both of us.
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I think sometimes life gets busy.
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For us and some of our priorities shift, but yeah, I'm not sure.
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I think maybe I love it a little bit more than Nate does.
5:10
Yeah.
5:10
Okay.
5:11
Is that true, Nate?
5:12
Yeah.
5:12
It's, it's, it really rubs up against kind of my I enjoy learning.
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So that part is nice, but organizing material and presenting really
5:23
kind of exacerbates my anxiety as you well know because we share the
5:28
ADHD fun.
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And when I'm laughing, Nate, because I don't even know how many times you've
5:33
been on my podcast, this might even be a number 10 or something, who knows, but.
5:37
I will forget that then I'll say, let's do a podcast next week.
5:41
And then a few days before you're saying, Hey, so do you have an outline
5:43
or do you have a specific direction?
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And then I just think I don't, but I don't think that's the
5:48
answer Nate's looking for.
5:49
And so then we will then end up sometimes postponing the podcast
5:52
and then maybe the ADHD kicks in.
5:54
I'll forget about it.
5:55
But I have always enjoyed when we go on together and then Marla and I today
5:59
earlier in a session, somebody brought up the one we did on betrayal trauma.
6:01
And again, said how wonderful that was and how helpful I mentioned
6:04
it on a group call last night.
6:06
And I think we put that one together.
6:08
I think I had let you know a couple of days before, how
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would you feel about this?
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Yeah.
6:13
Not that one is better than the other.
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Of course.
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Yeah.
6:16
Yeah.
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Well, I mean, you make it work, right?
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Life is life is fun.
6:20
And your podcast is
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called, I don't think you mentioned it yet.
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No, it's called working change.
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And so it turns out there's a lot of podcasts out there.
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We had about 50 different names we really like.
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This one might be a little bit more on the clunky side, but I think it
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accurately kind of depicts my, maybe my belief that like changes work.
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It's hard.
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And so sometimes, we kind of resist change because we don't want to do the work.
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Also side note want to give Marla props who just completed
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her trauma certification.
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Oh, nice.
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This
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week.
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Congratulations, Marla.
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Okay.
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It was
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a grief certification.
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Oh, sorry.
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You're right.
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Grief certification.
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Yes.
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Grief and loss certified now.
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That's great.
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And then I'm working on a trauma.
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Like a bit like a interrelational somatic therapy certification.
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Also.
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Okay.
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And then if there are people in California, please reach out.
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Yeah.
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Self compassion and grief and loss are like my thing right now.
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I'm loving it.
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Yeah.
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And Nate, what are your areas that you really enjoy working?
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You know, I do a lot of work with anxiety.
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I am naturally a very anxious person.
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So I've had to do a lot of work with that.
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I enjoy helping people with that.
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Tend to see people with, with anxiety related disorders or maybe adjacent.
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So OCD, depression work with people with addiction challenges.
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I really enjoy working with maturity which sometimes comes up in couples stuff.
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So working out of codependence and things like that.
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Okay.
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And then just putting myself on notice that you guys were on Leading Saints
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with my, my dear friend, Kurt Francom.
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It was an amazing episode.
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I'll put that in the show notes.
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And then I did a interview with the two of you and Kurt
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afterward that is, has yet to air.
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So if anyone is enjoying Nate Marla, go consume all of their content and then
8:10
look in the next couple of weeks and I will make sure and put that episode out.
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Okay.
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So where are we going today?
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I'm excited about this.
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We are going with self compassion and how we kind of landed on this was
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Marla and I had been doing a lot of work around the self, like personally
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and with our clients, and compassion came up for me a while ago in, when
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I was reading the book that Marla recommended, uh, Radical Acceptance.
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They recommended it when I was in school, but I was like too
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overwhelmed with other stuff.
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So when Marla was going through her program, it came
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up again and she loves books.
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And so she just ordered it and she's like, Oh, here, that book
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you mentioned that I heard about.
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And so that, that came up for me and I realized, Holy cow, I am.
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I'm not very compassionate towards myself.
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And so that kind of started this journey for us that we've been on for some time.
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And then probably two months ish ago, maybe a month and a half ago,
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we did a podcast contrasting pity, sympathy, empathy, and compassion.
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And we got a lot of good feedback on that.
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And so the last one we did was specific to self compassion.
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To clarify, Dr.
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Neff who writes a, does a lot of studies on this my understanding is she hopefully
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still teaches at the University of Texas, but is, done a lot of research on it.
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She looks at compassion as omnidirectional.
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So to her, self compassion is, is, while it's, talking about compassion
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towards self, she would categorize it as a part of compassion.
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We'll use the term here, self compassion, just to delineate what we mean.
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We might also use the word compassion, which is, could be going
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outward or could be focused inward.
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But that's kind of what led us to this point.
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Was there any, uh, any other things, Marla that you wanted to add to what got
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us here and why we're talking about it?
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No, I think I saw a lot of one of the problems with clients that
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come in are that they criticize.
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There's a lot of negative self talk.
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There's a lot of rumination and they tend to isolate.
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Those are issues with like depression and anxiety and things like that.
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And so it got me curious of is there something here?
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That can help with that.
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And so like Nate said, I love books.
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I mean, we have way too many.
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I'm probably going to start a library here soon.
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It's my own issue.
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But I came across this and I thought, okay, I'm going to just
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deep dive, try to find a good book on this, a good workbook for it.
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And I came across Kristen Neff and I really enjoyed her workbook.
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Like it was hitting all of the points for me.
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And I was like, wow, this like self compassion concept.
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What is it?
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Let's really like deep dive into this.
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And it was super curious.
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And I kept coming to Nate and being like, check this out, check this out,
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like saying this with my clients.
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And like, it's really resonating and wow, this is like really simple and
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an easy way to describe something.
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And I was just loving how simple and complete it was and
11:05
how like nourishing it was.
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For my clients also a lot of anxiety was lowering and depression was
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lowering as they were starting to do some of these concepts.
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So
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looking at
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myself also.
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And then, you know, looking at my clients and saying, what more
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can we do to like, stop beating ourself up and just be healthier.
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So I want to say, do you guys see just often the, I feel like
11:27
the constant refrain I hear is the, what's wrong with me?
11:30
And I will not stop going down the acceptance and commitment
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therapy road of nothing.
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You're human.
11:35
First time you've been you in this situation.
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So check that out.
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And I say that and I just it's what's really interesting why I want to hear
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you guys talk about this so much as in my own home even I realized while I feel
11:47
like my interior landscape of my mind no longer does the what's wrong with me
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and I can't even tell you how liberating and free that feels I think it takes a
11:55
fair amount of time and it seems like this might be a quicker way to get there
12:00
than just trying to Just accept that I'm thinking that, which I love the
12:04
concepts of acceptance commitment therapy.
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I'm noticing I'm thinking what's wrong with me, but boy, people just have such
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a default track that goes to that place.
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And I showed my path back men's group.
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It was some yeah.
12:16
It was some really cool information from Daniel Ayman from the Ayman Clinic.
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But he talked about, I don't know, maybe Nate, you're a big brain guy, Marla,
12:22
you might know this as well but Dr.
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Ayman even talked about what negative self talk does to a particular part of
12:27
the brain to the point of where he even said that it causes more Confusion
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and some other things like that too.
12:32
So if you guys aren't familiar with that, I'll make sure and grab that.
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Maybe even insert it in here, the, what he says in that.
12:37
But I had to send that to my family and say, man, the, the negative self
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talk is a really significant issue.
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I think with people, especially with things like anxiety and depression.
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And this concept like aligns really well with that.
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Acceptance and commitment therapy.
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It, you know, it's, it's how do I accept it in a healthy way?
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Okay.
12:58
You know, just, and how do I move forward and how do I be kind to myself?
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I, it aligns, like it just like inserts right in, I think.
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So this concept, I was like, it's really easy to adopt, but the more I'm looking
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at it with my clients, the more I'm like, why are we not teaching this?
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Why do we not teach this even to our children?
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We have a four year old Nate and I, and some of these
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concepts I'm starting to like.
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With her, Oh, let's be mindful.
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Let's like be kind.
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And it's interesting to see the shift in her just at such a young age, even
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that
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she can adopt it, like common humanity.
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Like, Oh, everybody does it.
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Oh, really?
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It's really an interesting thing that, you know, if we could teach it more,
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. How
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would this impact everyone?
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So what does it look like?
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So self compassion for like, the best like definition that I can find
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was being really being open to your own suffering, you know, offering a
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very nonjudgmental understanding to like your pain, your inadequacies
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and all your failures, which is hard.
14:01
It is.
14:01
I guess you're saying that.
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I think already people have to be saying like, but I don't want to,
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I don't want to think about this.
14:06
Yeah.
14:06
Yes.
14:06
There's a lot of pushback on this.
14:08
It's, how do I do this?
14:09
And what is that?
14:11
And that's what, and you know, it's interesting.
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She in her papers that she wrote, she came up with some of the things that people
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will push back against on self compassion.
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You know, I sent Nate into that area.
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I'm like, okay, Nate, you talk about that.
14:25
So Nate, if you want to talk about those four areas that she said.
14:29
Sure.
14:30
Sure.
14:31
So there seems to be like four, I guess you would call them like
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four areas of resistance that, that people tend to kind of have.
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And I don't fully understand why we like feel the way that we feel,
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you know, we're all similar in age.
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So, I don't know if we all had this experience where it's kind of like.
14:49
You hurt yourself and your parents just like, you're okay, rub some dirt on it.
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And like, there's not really much acknowledgement
14:55
about the fact you're hurt.
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It's more of this kind of like, Oh, it's not a big deal.
15:00
And so I think there's this, for some of us that are taught
15:03
that way, maybe this was kind of this innate Oh, ignore the pain.
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Oh, it's not that bad, any number of things, which.
15:11
Which, interestingly, a lot of studies that came up in the paper that, that Marla
15:16
asked me to review for this reflected the fact that we seem to do compassion
15:21
better outwardly than we do inwardly.
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Like, there's just some resistance that people have to it.
15:29
So, the four like common resistances or complaints about why people feel like
15:35
self compassion is a problem are first that they believe self compassion makes
15:41
them weak, second that they believe that self compassion leads to self
15:45
indulgence, So, you know, that's Oh, I don't have to be, you know, I don't, I
15:50
don't need to do anything hard today.
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I can sit on the couch and eat Twinkies all day.
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Third is that self compassion is selfish.
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So if I'm giving myself compassion, then I'm not thinking about others.
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I'm too wrapped up in myself.
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And then the last common complaint is that it undermines motivation.
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So for some people, it's like, Oh, I can't be too nice to myself or else
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I'm not going to go do the hard things.
16:15
Yeah.
16:16
It's funny because all of those are so good because I think a lot of the
16:20
stories our brain tells us, but I'm so, fixated is maybe not the right word on
16:25
the, what we do with our discomfort.
16:27
If we alleviate the discomfort, if we avoid discomfort, and then there's a
16:31
a researcher named Terrence McKenna, who says about, , life and you're
16:34
jumping out into the great abyss and finding out there's a feather bed.
16:37
And I found that so many things that we are so afraid of , it is just
16:41
the story our brain is telling us.
16:42
Where if we do give ourselves, and I'm sure we'll talk about this today, but
16:45
compassion or acceptance, that then, We may actually end up being more
16:49
motivated to do versus that fear that I won't, but I'll never go explore that
16:54
because I'm so afraid of this unknown,
16:56
yeah.
16:57
And I think that actually ties in pretty well with with some of the
17:01
studies that looked at some of these complaints that people have.
17:04
So if it's okay, I'd like to take a few minutes and like address
17:08
each of those individually.
17:09
So we actually can say, okay, well, what, What is, what are the studies and what is
17:14
science telling us about those complaints?
17:16
Cause you guys know, that's kind of my favorite.
17:20
Nerd alert.
17:21
I got it.
17:22
Like, sorry, I'll play or whatever.
17:23
Okay.
17:24
Yeah.
17:24
I love this flashing red.
17:26
Yes.
17:27
Yeah.
17:28
All right, so complaint one that self compassion makes one week.
17:32
So studies are showing that this is in fact completely incorrect.
17:36
And what one study was showing in 2021 study related to self
17:41
compassion was showing that people that are self compassionate.
17:45
Actually, that have PTSD experience less symptoms and they experience a
17:52
larger capacity for growth and learning.
17:55
Now, that makes a certain amount of sense because for anybody that listened
17:58
to our podcast about compassion studies on compassion show that the areas
18:03
of the brain that get activated when someone's experiencing compassion is the
18:08
oxytocin system and the dopamine system.
18:10
So these are large systems.
18:11
So it's components within the system, but the areas of those
18:13
systems are getting activated.
18:15
So what that means is it feels, it helps us feel close to others.
18:18
And the dopamine system is about like learning and motivation.
18:21
So like it's absolutely.
18:24
Usually using those systems related to motivation.
18:28
So that goes to, I think the fourth complaint, but, the ability to experience
18:34
lower symptoms and to increase in learning and motivation ties in well with that.
18:40
A 2015 study of people in the military showed that having low levels of self
18:47
compassion was found to be a stronger predictor of developing PTSD symptoms
18:55
than the level of combat exposure itself.
18:58
Whoa.
18:59
What do you think about that?
19:00
I mean, I did not see that one coming.
19:02
I was trying to guess where this was going, something about depression . Okay,
19:05
so if you have more self compassion, you are less likely to have PTSD symptoms,
19:10
even though you've been in combat.
19:12
You're on the right track.
19:13
What they're saying is they can predict with more accuracy.
19:18
If you were going to develop PTSD symptoms based on your level of self
19:23
compassion, as opposed to how severe the whatever the military I'm not exactly
19:30
sure what the, they use combat exposure.
19:32
So severity of combat exposure versus weighing that against self compassion.
19:38
Self compassion is a better determiner of PTSD symptoms, so low self compassion
19:44
as opposed to combat experience.
19:46
Yes, the actual level of combat experience.
19:49
Seems wild.
19:50
I can't wrap my head around that one, honestly.
19:52
Yeah, yeah.
19:53
When I read that, I was like, wow, That's quite surprising.
19:55
Didn't, didn't expect to see that
19:57
because I think with a lot of the population that we all work with, if
19:59
there's things like betrayal, trauma or narcissistic abuse, and there's complex
20:03
post traumatic stress disorder, then how much more effective would that be if
20:09
the person was more compassionate toward their self of lessening those symptoms.
20:14
That is fascinating.
20:15
Yeah.
20:16
It doesn't, yeah.
20:17
I mean, I'm recognizing that I'm carrying some of these own, these
20:19
biases in because as I'm reading this, I'm like, Oh, that surprises me.
20:23
So, so obviously I have some of these biases myself that I'm working through.
20:28
So those are related to how self compassion makes us strong and not weak.
20:32
Then the studies that talk about you know, it, Self indulgence.
20:37
Self indulgence is defined in in this particular article and I
20:40
probably should quote the article.
20:42
I should have done that first.
20:42
I'm sorry self compassion theory method research and intervention by Kristen Neff.
20:47
And this is a 2021, 2023.
20:50
Yeah,
20:51
2023 article.
20:52
Thank you.
20:52
So if anybody wants to look at the, there's a lot more to it, which
20:56
is just pulling a few things out.
20:57
Self indulgence, as defined in the article, refers to engaging in behavior
21:02
that is pleasurable in the short term, but harmful in the long term.
21:06
So again, sitting on the couch eating Twinkies.
21:09
My taste buds are gonna love it.
21:11
You know, I get to be relaxed all day, but not good for my
21:14
body, not good for my psyche.
21:16
So what they found was researchers in, uh, were looking at several articles
21:20
in over 2019 and 2021 found that People with higher levels of self compassion
21:27
engaged in health promoting behaviors, such as reduced smoking, healthy diet
21:31
and exercise, seeking medical care, increased physical activity, safe
21:36
sex, and less bedtime procrastination.
21:39
Okay.
21:40
Now it's almost starting to get a little silly.
21:41
I remember the first time when I learned about the nurtured heart approach, I
21:44
felt like it, they had all this data from school systems where, kids got
21:47
along, they created their crafts better.
21:50
Nobody went without, I thought, okay, really?
21:52
But I went and looked at the data and it really supported that.
21:54
So this is fascinating what this does.
21:57
And I know that we will get to the point where we'll talk about, cause
22:00
I'm wondering if people right now are saying, okay, But what do I do?
22:03
Do I just tell myself?
22:04
Yes, we will get there.
22:05
Okay.
22:05
We will get there.
22:06
We will get there.
22:06
I just want to make sure that I address these concerns because and sorry, I'll
22:10
try to be, I'm like so amazed by this.
22:13
I
22:14
think I'm speaking for maybe the listener where they're like, okay, let's just
22:16
hurry up and get to the self compassion.
22:18
Okay.
22:18
I'm telling them right now, you must have compassion on yourself.
22:21
To get to the self compassion.
22:23
Yes.
22:24
There we go.
22:25
So, additionally, a 2018 study showed that eight weeks of mindfulness and
22:30
compassion training increased immune functioning as measured by you're going
22:35
to get this word right, immunoglobin.
22:37
So there was physical changes in the body.
22:40
Related to increasing mindfulness and self compassion so actually
22:45
makes us more healthy So it doesn't make us it doesn't cause us to be
22:49
less healthy and self indulgent.
22:50
Third complaint that it's selfish.
22:53
This relates to like relationships.
22:55
So if you're having any struggles in your relationship, perhaps
22:58
there's, something to glean here.
23:00
2013 study looking at a hundred couples and long term partnerships found that
23:07
self compassionate partners, people that are higher in self compassion
23:10
were more emotionally connected, more accepting, and more autonomy supporting.
23:17
Of their partners, they were also less detached, less controlling, and less
23:23
verbally and physically aggressive.
23:25
2020 studies showed that self, people high in self compassion were more
23:30
accepting of their own and their romantic partner's personal flaws.
23:35
And they all had ponies, and they all had unicorns, and they all had pots of gold.
23:39
Yes.
23:40
Everything was wonderful, they had no problems.
23:42
That's
23:42
what
23:42
I
23:42
was
23:42
gonna
23:43
say, I really appreciate it.
23:44
This is really good, it's really exciting.
23:46
Yeah.
23:47
Okay, last one, and then I'll be done and we can get to the fun part
23:51
of what to do, and actually Marla has, I think, a little bit more
23:55
information about self compassion.
23:56
Self compassion undermines motivation.
23:59
So we mentioned just a little bit earlier when people practice
24:01
compassion, it actually stimulates some areas of the brain related to
24:07
dopamine functioning, which connects well to motivational learning.
24:13
They also found that people that practice self compassion were, are
24:19
motivated to achieve for intrinsic reasons and not because they
24:23
want to garner social approval.
24:25
That relates to probably self compassion versus self esteem.
24:29
I didn't really get into that, but there is some stuff that we could talk about.
24:32
Self esteem is important, but also dangerous because it's
24:36
related to how others view us.
24:38
So it puts us at a need for validation.
24:41
Whereas, when we practice self compassion, we can validate ourselves,
24:45
we can accept, our flaws, we can, You know, work towards whatever end we
24:50
want, but that's based on our needs and not necessarily somebody else.
24:54
What somebody else is telling us we need to do.
24:56
Can I tell a story real quick, Nate?
24:57
Yes, please.
24:58
Funny is that when you guys talked about this, I just went ahead and
25:00
Googled what study I thought you were referring to and I've gone crazy
25:04
on that one and it's not the one that we're talking about right now.
25:07
So I did prepare a few things and it's more about that.
25:10
So it turns out, which is good because I'll take, I'll tackle that on a whole
25:14
separate podcast and I have nothing else to add to this one so that it's
25:17
really helpful, yeah, so I'm, I'm
25:20
I'll tell you what happened there, Tony.
25:21
Okay.
25:24
It's good.
25:25
Um, 2003, Chris and Neff kind of like coined this term and really brought
25:30
it into the light of psychology.
25:33
Okay.
25:33
There's an interesting graph in the.
25:36
The article that Nate is talking about, and it shows how much self compassion
25:41
is being talked about in the world of psychology, and it's like literally like
25:45
zero in the beginning of the century.
25:48
And then it slowly trends upward and it's like spiking now.
25:52
Okay.
25:53
So somewhere along the way, we really started to understand in the Western world
25:57
that self compassion was, is, is real.
25:59
Really all of that
26:01
and
26:01
that we should be using it and utilizing it more.
26:03
It is a very Eastern philosophy.
26:06
It's rooted heavily in like Buddhism and they talk about it a lot.
26:11
In that.
26:12
And so for us over here, we're like, what is this?
26:16
This is indulgent.
26:17
This is weak.
26:18
This is you know, all these selfish things.
26:21
We've kind of poo pooed on it for a long time.
26:24
And now we're like, Oh, wait, wait, maybe we should.
26:26
And we're studying it and we're applying it and we're finding
26:29
all of these really great things.
26:31
And so it's not something when I went to go dig into it, I
26:34
couldn't find anything about it.
26:36
Yeah.
26:37
Until recently.
26:38
And so it is kind of curious as to like, where has this been?
26:42
Yeah.
26:42
Why have we not been talking about this?
26:44
You know, how does this work?
26:45
So you had her original 2003 article.
26:49
I
26:49
just found like the other day that there was another 2023 article where
26:53
she's kind of updated this and added like more research because they've
26:56
been researching it since then.
26:58
20 years later.
26:59
Yeah.
26:59
Decades.
27:00
They've been researching.
27:01
How does this work?
27:02
Because she's been very curious as to I've got all these claims
27:05
that I've put forth in 2003.
27:08
How does it really impact us?
27:09
Well, let's go through the research.
27:10
So now we've got two decades worth of research that is now showing what she's
27:14
been saying in 2003 is really what it is.
27:17
Wow.
27:18
And
27:18
yeah,
27:19
Nate has the end of it.
27:20
You have the beginning of it.
27:21
Okay.
27:22
And I had both of them and I just.
27:23
so much.
27:24
Gatekept it for both of
27:25
you guys.
27:27
Well played.
27:28
Well, we still want it.
27:29
We still want to talk about some of the stuff in that early article
27:32
that you feel would be important because we really liked it.
27:35
This 1 here is yeah, it's just collecting a bunch of data
27:38
and then adding data to it.
27:40
to it.
27:40
The last thing that I thought that would be helpful related to motivation
27:44
was 2020 study showed that people that were higher in self compassion
27:49
were more accepting of their mistakes.
27:51
They looked at errors or failures as opportunity to learn.
27:55
As opposed to like trying to hide from any, you know, doing anything wrong.
27:59
So, that would probably tie to perfectionism.
28:02
So those are the complaints and those are what science are telling
28:05
us about why our complaints, whatever resistance we're feeling is natural.
28:10
I feel it.
28:11
A lot of people feel it.
28:13
We have data saying that it's, yeah, that it's actually not correct.
28:16
So back to you guys.
28:19
That's good.
28:20
So what is it, Tony?
28:22
Yeah.
28:22
What is self compassion?
28:24
Positive affirmations, petting a dog, some meditation,
28:27
unicorns and things like that.
28:29
Yeah.
28:30
No.
28:30
Tell me more.
28:30
Yeah.
28:31
I'm very curious.
28:32
So self compassion, we talked about the definition, but it really anchors
28:36
into three things she talks about.
28:38
The first one is mindfulness and a lot of people have a really hard time with this.
28:43
They're like mindfulness.
28:44
You know, as a society, we, we live a lot in the past.
28:47
We live a lot in the future.
28:48
We like to plan.
28:49
We like to like be somewhere else.
28:51
She's saying no, let's like anchor and be mindful.
28:54
Be in the moment, be present.
28:56
And she talks about, you can't even have self compassion until
29:00
you like, you're kind of mindful.
29:01
So mindfulness is the acceptance of the experience.
29:05
Can I accept this experience?
29:08
Can I just even acknowledge it?
29:09
You know, some of us have our time even acknowledging something.
29:12
And then the self compassion component is can I be caring now about this experience?
29:18
So first we have to be mindful.
29:19
What is mindfulness?
29:20
Well, the opposite of mindfulness is am I over identifying with it?
29:24
Am I ruminating about it?
29:26
Because if I'm doing those things, I'm somewhere else.
29:29
So being mindful is like gently observing your feeling for
29:34
what it is and not judging it.
29:36
Like removing the judgment, removing how that impacts myself.
29:41
That's funny.
29:41
I'm
29:42
sad.
29:42
I'm like, Oh, how does that impact me?
29:44
Well, it impacts me all these ways, rather than just saying I'm sad.
29:47
Yeah, I'm noticing I'm sad and this is happening.
29:50
I, this has been one of the biggest things for me personally.
29:52
We've been talking before we hit record.
29:55
I'm in Arizona.
29:56
We didn't do daylight savings.
29:57
It's messed a lot of things up.
29:58
And one of the best things about it is I really have noticed that
30:02
it is harder for me to get angry.
30:05
It's frustrating.
30:06
I'm noticing my frustration as I see clients that are double booked because
30:09
Arizona has decided to not do it.
30:12
Do daylight savings and the rest of the country does.
30:15
And then that is causing some scheduling changes with people
30:17
that live in different places.
30:19
That is a thing.
30:19
And I love that concept around it is happening.
30:22
So now what can I do about it?
30:23
Because if we're all up in our amygdala and our feelings, then I think we
30:27
often get hijacked by those feelings.
30:29
And then we either need somebody to tell us it's going to be okay, or we
30:32
would get to run around and be upset.
30:35
And those aren't.
30:36
They're normal, but not so helpful.
30:37
So I, I love the concept of Oh, this is a thing.
30:40
It is happening.
30:41
These are feelings check those out.
30:42
And and I know that takes a lot of practice to do.
30:45
So when somebody is hearing this, I don't think that, and probably most
30:48
people start tuning out when they hear mindfulness, but it is a key.
30:52
It is such a key to life, I think.
30:54
So this is nice to hear that is a very big anchor for this practice.
30:58
Definitely.
30:59
And then, Once you can be mindful of it, you can be self kind.
31:03
That's the second principle, am I like the opposite of that is self criticism
31:09
judgment and things, you know, and we have a lot of negative self talk,
31:13
so it's, how do I be kind to myself?
31:16
How do I say positive things that are beneficial and not harmful.
31:20
So that one, you know, you can work with your therapist on that one, as far
31:23
as like detangling from the negative thought and being self kind, if I can
31:27
say what I really love, if I can say
31:28
one thing real quick, Marla, and I will, I will, maybe I'll, maybe I'll
31:30
throw this at the beginning or the end, or I'll go in depth, but mindfulness
31:34
meditation is not about stopping thought.
31:36
And I get that.
31:37
I had another one of those sessions yesterday where somebody's
31:39
I can't stop my thoughts.
31:40
And I just said, as can no one else, but then it is all about bringing
31:45
yourself right back to the present moment, whether that's through your
31:47
breath or the things you feel or smell.
31:49
So if somebody is currently then saying, man, I wish I could do
31:52
self compassion, but I've tried the mindfulness and I can't stop my thoughts.
31:55
Then please go back and learn more about the practice of being
31:59
mindful and the meditative practice.
32:01
I will.
32:02
I'll do an updated episode on that or something because that it's, it
32:05
is it's not what people think it is.
32:06
And I, and it needs a new mindfulness needs a new PR team.
32:09
I think.
32:09
Yeah,
32:11
it does.
32:11
You know, and she mentioned that one really good thing to do to be mindful,
32:16
you take it back to your five senses.
32:18
Yeah.
32:19
What can I see, touch, taste, hear, smell in this moment?
32:23
Am I, can I ground myself back here?
32:26
Often it's like, I'm sad and I go everywhere else or I'm angry
32:29
about Arizona, you know, and I'm all over the place, but Hey, I'm
32:33
here, I'm sitting in my chair.
32:34
I can feel here.
32:35
My feet are on the ground.
32:37
I'm good.
32:38
Yeah.
32:38
This is frustrating.
32:40
We're doing this
32:41
now.
32:41
What do I want to go do about it?
32:43
Yeah.
32:44
Which is so much more healthy.
32:45
And that's kind of like act.
32:46
How do I want to behave in this moment?
32:48
That aligns with my values.
32:50
Yeah.
32:51
And so that's kindness.
32:52
The last one I really love though, it's, it's more of like common humanity.
32:56
It's like saying that I'm human, I'm having a human experience.
32:59
I'm not perfect.
33:00
I'm
33:02
not going to isolate myself and be all alone, not throw a pity party for
33:05
myself and say like, Oh my gosh, nobody else knows my pain because I'm special.
33:09
And I have all this pain that nobody can like even identify with me.
33:13
It's saying that like more than likely somebody else has experienced
33:16
this and would feel very similar.
33:18
To how I'm feeling and it's hard.
33:20
It's hard being human.
33:22
We have these, it's okay.
33:24
We have these thoughts and that helps us be kind also, what would
33:29
I tell my girlfriend if she was sitting on the couch with me, or my
33:31
guy friend, I wouldn't be like, Oh, you're the worst person in the world.
33:34
You did that.
33:35
You know, be like, Oh, don't worry about it.
33:37
Don't sweat it.
33:37
Oh my gosh, I do that all the time.
33:40
You'll be okay.
33:41
We'll, we'll figure it out.
33:42
But can I tell myself that and what does that do when I tell myself
33:46
that, how does that benefit me?
33:48
That's what self compassion is.
33:50
It's can I be in the moment, can I be kind to myself, and can I share that this is
33:54
like a human experience I'm having here?
33:57
I'm not judging myself.
33:59
I'm not isolating myself.
34:00
I'm not criticizing myself in those things.
34:02
And so it's not, sitting on the couch with your Twinkies like Nate said.
34:05
It's, really wanting to be an active participant in your own life.
34:10
In a really healthy way.
34:11
I like what you're saying too, that what Nate said earlier, that we're much
34:14
better about doing it for, with someone else or to, or for someone else, when
34:18
you were saying, what would I say to my girlfriend who's sitting here and why
34:20
do we beat ourselves up incessantly?
34:22
And then I think it does circle right back around to the things that
34:25
Nate shared, because we are afraid that if we do not beat ourselves
34:28
up, we will not stay motivated.
34:29
We won't accomplish anything that we'll just and I think
34:32
that today's theme is Twinkies.
34:33
I was much more of a ding dong guy though.
34:35
I don't know if you guys I liked those a lot better.
34:37
Yeah.
34:37
Or there was a,
34:38
it's kind of like ew on both of them, so,
34:39
oh, come on.
34:40
There was a short, didn't have your D Chales, I think.
34:42
Pinkies, yeah.
34:43
Okay.
34:43
The, yeah, the Chaco dial was really the unsung hero.
34:46
And I don't know what happened to those, although I'm sure there's
34:47
still plenty of all of them around.
34:49
'cause that was always the thing that supposedly they made one batch in
34:52
the fifties and they're still around.
34:54
Yeah,
34:54
probably
34:55
. Yeah, I digress.
34:55
Some bomb
34:56
shelter.
34:56
Yeah.
34:57
Okay.
34:58
So, you know the interesting part though, Tony, is that like
35:01
you talk about motivation and Nate's talked about motivation.
35:04
And with this, she talks about it's, that's part of self compassion.
35:09
There's a motivating part of self compassion, but it's a motivation
35:13
out of like love for yourself.
35:15
Not out of like fear, oftentimes like we're motivated because
35:18
if I don't do this, this bad thing is going to happen to me.
35:22
Or, I'm going to be judged this way or whatever.
35:25
So we're scared and we're doing things because we're scared.
35:28
This is more of I'm going to do this because I value it because
35:31
it's a good thing for me.
35:32
It's going to support me.
35:34
That's going to provide for me.
35:35
It's going to nourish me.
35:36
It's going to comfort me and soothe me, but in a really healthy space, not in um,
35:41
a negative or fearful kind of component.
35:44
So it is a motivating, like there is a motivating part to self compassion.
35:49
That I think it gets overlooked.
35:51
This is, and again, wonderful.
35:53
Do you guys as clinicians, though, run into the part where it's, it can just
35:57
be really difficult for somebody that, it's almost like they were never maybe
36:00
they were never allowed, like we were saying earlier, to have, feel their
36:03
feelings, and so then, that's a pretty big stretch, I think, sometimes to
36:07
try and, and move them into self love.
36:10
which maybe would be this self compassion.
36:12
And I really do believe that there's so many things that sound like cliches
36:15
until somebody really embraces them.
36:16
One of those being, if you don't love yourself, then it's hard to show up
36:20
and really be able to love others.
36:22
And so it sounds like this is one of those tools for somebody
36:25
to learn to love themselves.
36:27
But I wonder just how difficult is it for somebody to almost like allow themselves
36:34
or give themselves the permission.
36:36
To do this self care or self compassion or have you guys run into that?
36:40
what do you see in your office?
36:42
Nate, have you seen it?
36:43
I've seen it.
36:43
Have you seen it?
36:45
Oh yeah.
36:46
Yeah.
36:46
Yeah.
36:47
Why don't you, uh.
36:48
So for, yeah.
36:49
So for me, I would say the thing that I run into is you
36:53
got to work on mindfulness.
36:54
I would say if you're having a hard time with the emotional part of this
36:58
then where's the sticking point for you?
37:00
Are you, do you not want to recognize it because it's just uncomfortable.
37:04
Do I want to avoid it because I don't want to like have to sit in it because they,
37:08
some people don't have a tolerance for it.
37:11
This isn't like, I'm going to sit in it.
37:13
I'm going to suffer in it.
37:14
This is, I'm going to acknowledge it so I can release myself from my suffering.
37:18
You can come along with me for the ride, but I don't need you to
37:21
like, I don't need to sit in it and then just become your best friend.
37:25
Yeah.
37:26
Which again, sounds amazing.
37:27
And I know we all know that, but, and so anybody listening that struggles
37:30
with that, I think it just becomes a boy, you have to hear more cliches.
37:34
Trust the process.
37:35
Do more reading about this, see a therapist , I worry
37:37
that people listening.
37:38
And again, that's a me thing that they are doing the, okay.
37:41
They said mindfulness.
37:42
They said, love yourself.
37:43
They said, treat yourself kind.
37:44
And that, I don't know.
37:46
Why do you think people have such a hard time with that?
37:48
With giving themselves grace or doing things that will, , that will help them.
37:53
You think it sounds , too woo woo or too out there isn't practical.
37:57
. What do you think?
37:58
So I wonder a little bit about one of, one of the workbook that Marla
38:02
mentioned talked about the yin and the yang of self compassion.
38:06
I sometimes wonder if, if people their viewpoints on self compassion
38:10
are maybe narrow or skewed.
38:12
, I don't know , if it was Kristen Neff or someone else, was talking about the
38:16
kind of this is the verbiage they used.
38:19
The masculine and the feminine associated with compassion.
38:24
So the feminine with compassion might be more related to mercy
38:28
and kindness and things like that.
38:30
And we're all to some degree, both masculine and feminine, but you know, if,
38:34
if you see yourself as a masculine man and you hear compassion and it's kind of
38:39
like, I don't know, I don't know if that really appeals to who I'm trying to be,
38:42
then, there could be resistance there.
38:44
The other side of that coin is the masculine of self compassion, which is
38:49
related to protection, which is related to providing, which is related to discipline.
38:55
And so you might even find that maybe some women that see themselves as really
39:00
feminine might have resistance to that because, you know, they don't feel
39:04
like it embraces like who they are.
39:06
So I think there's components.
39:07
That can cause resistance on either side of that.
39:10
And I'm sure that there's many other things, but that's where my brain goes.
39:14
It is absolutely, I think, a cultural thing.
39:16
Okay.
39:18
Tell me more.
39:18
I
39:18
think that we had been raised to, to see this as self compassion is kind
39:24
of like compassion is a weaker thing.
39:27
It's something that you do when somebody dies and you bring a castle all over.
39:30
Yeah.
39:31
But it's not something that like, you know, you rub some dirt on it and you
39:33
get over it is like our generation, like we said before, how we were raised.
39:38
And so.
39:39
If you're taking too much time to like center on yourself and to think
39:43
about yourself, you're selfish, like all the reasons that we gave,
39:47
but it's
39:47
not, this is more of like, how do we have more of a inclusive
39:52
idea of what compassion is?
39:54
Let's broaden this.
39:56
And so it is, like Nate said, there's like the comforting, the soothing
40:00
and the validating the yin part, the yang part is more like masculine
40:04
providing, protecting, motivating.
40:06
That's an action part.
40:08
Yeah.
40:08
But with both of them it's moving forward in a really like healthy way.
40:13
If you had just one or the other, it could look kind of harming,
40:16
but putting them together.
40:18
It is healthy.
40:19
You know, how do I comfort myself?
40:21
How do I soothe myself?
40:22
How do I validate myself instead of looking for somebody
40:25
else to do that for me?
40:26
Exactly.
40:26
That's what
40:27
codependency is.
40:28
Yeah.
40:28
And so can I do it for myself?
40:29
That's me being differentiated, and strong the yang part, how do I
40:34
protect, provide and motivate myself?
40:36
Well, again, that's great.
40:37
That's what we want all of our kids to do.
40:39
You want them to grow up and do all these good things.
40:42
So I see both of that and I'm like, yeah, you need both of it.
40:45
And it's both really healthy.
40:47
So how do we incorporate all of that in that?
40:50
And so I think culturally we've just been taught that you just kind of avoid it.
40:55
You'll overlook it.
40:57
You don't whine about it,
40:58
A man through it, whatever you got to do, but we're, this
41:01
is not where we want to go.
41:03
And I think we're wrong.
41:04
I do too.
41:05
There's a I don't know if you guys have clients in a minute.
41:07
If you got another minute here.
41:08
I'm good.
41:08
Are you okay?
41:09
Do you have a second?
41:10
Yeah.
41:10
Okay.
41:11
There's a quote and this is I'm going to, I'm going to own this, that this is
41:14
from a fictional book called the Furies.
41:17
By, Alex Michelitis, Michelitis, who wrote the silent patient,
41:20
which is an amazing book.
41:22
And and he speaks so much about.
41:25
therapy in his books that I had to go look and see if he was a therapist, but he just
41:28
says that he's very Pro therapy, but he's talking about when we're young and
41:32
scared and we feel the sting of shame and humiliation when we learn what emotional
41:36
abandonment is, whether neglect or simply by lack of tools or awareness from our
41:39
parents said something profound happens.
41:41
And this is again, a fictional character saying this within this
41:43
book, but he says, time stops there.
41:45
It freezes at that moment.
41:47
And then that freeze, a part of us gets stuck at that age forever.
41:49
And I like where he says, imagine a scared little kid hiding somewhere in
41:52
the corners of your mind, that kid still feels unsafe, feels ignored and unloved.
41:55
They still want validation from a parent.
41:57
And it's been trying to get that validation its entire life.
41:59
. And so I wondered then, , if we were not.
42:02
Seeing our kids and understanding that they had emotions and feelings
42:05
and validating them and allowing them to really be okay with them.
42:09
Because then he goes on, this is the line that I think is so fascinating that he
42:11
talked about the sooner that you reach out to that kid and start talking to them
42:15
the more peace you'll find in your life.
42:17
And he said, think about it.
42:18
Isn't that why he helped you grow up.
42:20
The hope was to have a strong adult body to take care of his needs and
42:22
protect and nurture him because he already knew that nobody else
42:25
would be able to do it for him.
42:26
Unfortunately, you were supposed to be his liberator, but
42:28
somehow you became his warden.
42:30
So I almost feel like that if we would have maybe had more of that
42:32
self compassion young and been modeled that, that yeah, this
42:35
would be more of a factory setting.
42:37
But here we were wanting that desperately to know that we were okay, that we
42:40
didn't have to be perfect as a kid.
42:42
But then the grownups around us.
42:45
Not knowing what they didn't know.
42:46
And this is where I think even a good version of a parent is still
42:49
trying to say, don't worry about it, but it's going to be okay.
42:51
That sounds good, but then really, so now it's almost like our inner
42:55
child had to grow up this big adult to try to then rescue us,
42:59
but we still don't have the tools.
43:00
So we're still going about it like we did when we were a little kid, immaturely.
43:04
So I feel like this speaks to emotional maturity so well
43:08
. Yeah, I.
43:09
Totally agree.
43:10
This reminds me of the book, The Child in You by Stephanie Stahl about
43:14
reparenting, which I've had to do a lot of work on because of my own
43:19
struggles, part, a lot of which was me.
43:22
You know, I, I had parents that were together and they were
43:25
loving but I am really neurotic.
43:27
It's just genetic and I isolated a lot and I didn't give people
43:31
an opportunity to love me.
43:32
And I always wondered why, why nobody loved me when I was hiding in my room.
43:36
I wasn't giving him a chance to, you know, but it, what I found is.
43:41
And I think that this is even true in parenting.
43:43
Like sometimes the attempt means a lot.
43:46
So even if it's sloppy, if it's just I don't know what I'm doing,
43:49
but you're just trying, you're just owning it and you're trying.
43:52
Like I have found great comfort in my own process of trying to reparent
43:56
myself and trying to self soothe.
43:58
I, I really like, what Snarsh teaches about, that process, when I'm not
44:02
being differentiated, what am I seeking from this person that I can't give
44:06
myself and is it that I can't give it to myself or is it that I would
44:09
rather someone else do it for me?
44:11
Can I do it?
44:12
And I just don't want to.
44:13
And that's what I find I often land in is that I am capable of doing it.
44:18
It just feels better when somebody else does it.
44:20
So, and it feels perfectly good when I do it.
44:22
It just.
44:23
Like I, it, I don't know.
44:24
It's less energy, right?
44:25
Like so.
44:25
Yeah.
44:26
But I like think so.
44:27
I don't know.
44:27
I hope that ties together well.
44:28
I
44:28
think it does.
44:29
And I think that part too, that I think often is where it goes
44:31
back to that we still at our core need to know that another person
44:35
sees us or we may not exist.
44:36
While I might be able to do it for myself, I wonder if there's still just this
44:39
inherent need for, but it would be better.
44:42
If somebody acknowledges me as a human being and therefore, how
44:45
will I know that I matter or exist?
44:47
Well, if they are doing these things for me and I, cause I mean, there's the
44:50
negative side that we all see with that one too, where somebody has like some
44:53
trauma bond to somebody because they feel like, well, this is at least I know
44:56
that, , I'm in a relationship, which is unfortunately not the healthiest way to
44:59
do that, but they are in a relationship.
45:02
Yeah, that speaks to self esteem, Tony.
45:04
Yeah.
45:05
Right.
45:05
Which ties back to self compassion.
45:07
Yeah.
45:08
That we just, you know, we are looking for somebody else's judgment to tell us, okay,
45:14
I, esteem myself at this level because everybody else is telling me I'm good.
45:19
Self compassion is the opposite of that.
45:20
I don't need judgment.
45:21
Bye.
45:22
That's good.
45:22
I can do this for myself.
45:24
As a child, I can look at my child, even that's young and who was hiding
45:28
in the corner and say, it's okay.
45:30
Most children at that age would feel that way.
45:32
Common humanity.
45:34
They would all be scared.
45:35
Like that's normal.
45:36
And it's okay to be scared.
45:38
How are the mindful that, well, that was really terrifying in that moment.
45:43
I think that that is, more powerful than the self esteem of receiving
45:47
somebody else who validates me.
45:48
Oh, you know, that's I'm really sold on this concept.
45:51
I am too.
45:52
I like it all right final thoughts from either of you not to put you on the
45:55
spot But , anything before we wrap up?
45:58
I had one statement that I really liked that self compassion
46:02
is the antidote to shame.
46:04
I'm a recovering addict and so, you know, very shame based
46:07
trying to hide from my pain.
46:09
And I, I totally agree with that statement.
46:12
That I think really is one of the more powerful ways that I've seen self
46:16
compassion helped me improve as a human.
46:19
I like that a lot.
46:21
Yeah.
46:21
Yeah.
46:22
Yeah.
46:22
I would say the same.
46:23
I would echo that.
46:24
I would say, as I have seen Nate apply self compassion to himself, it's
46:29
been really changing for him and who he is and for myself, when I'm more
46:34
compassionate with myself, it's so much easier, it's remembering it's retraining
46:40
ourselves to remember these things.
46:42
Can I be mindful?
46:44
Can I be kind of myself?
46:46
Can I just, I'm a human.
46:48
I mess it up.
46:49
Can I, you know, I don't have to be perfect.
46:51
And I think when we do that.
46:52
We have a better quality of life and the people around us also enjoy us more.
46:58
Yeah.
46:58
I like that Marla.
46:59
And I think with maybe it's a lot of the work that I do with couples that
47:03
they're starting to wake up to , their partner's emotional immaturity.
47:07
And so then they've been managing those emotions for so long that when
47:09
they turn inward and start to work on themselves, that I mean, obviously
47:13
it doesn't all of a sudden magically make the whole relationship better,
47:15
but I do think that it will often expose the immaturity in a partner.
47:19
And then and I don't think that that is, what am I trying to say
47:22
there that it's that would be scary.
47:24
That partner might even push more buttons because they want to get that person back
47:27
into the role that they're familiar with.
47:30
But I have found that when people get out of I was going to say in a bad
47:34
relationship, but even if they get out of their own mind and start to
47:37
look inward and realize they're okay.
47:39
That's again, what I like about act so much is when you realize you are
47:42
the only you, and this is the first time you're going through life.
47:44
So even it takes the sting out of, well, why did I do this the way I did it?
47:48
Well, truly, because I did, because, you know, see earlier first time it's
47:51
ever been me and right now I didn't quite have a rule book or a playbook.
47:55
And so, but now I can look at that with curiosity.
47:57
So I just feel like this adds so much more to that because plus I'm
48:01
doing the best I can and I'm having a human experience and check that out.
48:04
And Because I think so much of this back to what Nate's talking about with Shnarsh,
48:07
where there's a part about that, where if you're good with yourself, you're more
48:11
likely to be grounded in your response.
48:13
And when people are trying to tell you that you must do this or you are doing
48:16
it wrong, that's where I think the magic of being grounded and differentiated
48:22
and, self compassion maybe kicks in where then I can say, Oh, well, do tell,
48:25
tell me what I'm supposed to think and feel, cause, cause ultimately that's
48:28
a me thing and I'm good, but boy, you have to believe that you're good.
48:31
. Yeah.
48:32
Yeah.
48:33
Yeah.
48:33
All right.
48:34
You guys, thank you so much for, , for coming on and
48:37
go listen to working change.
48:39
Yes, sir.
48:40
What's your next episode?
48:41
Do you know?
48:41
Do you already have a plan?
48:42
I think we're doing something on grief.
48:45
Okay.
48:46
Grief and
48:46
loss.
48:47
That says just grief.
48:48
Okay.
48:50
Right.
48:50
Yeah.
48:50
All right.
48:51
Go find working change.
48:51
It'll
48:52
be more about loss than grief.
48:54
Okay.
48:55
Okay.
48:55
Yeah.
48:55
And then if anybody wants to find Marla or Nate, well, yeah.
48:58
What is the best way to get ahold of you guys?
49:00
I can put stuff in the notes, but what would be the best way?
49:03
I don't know if we have a great way.
49:04
I mean, we have our, our email that we created for our podcasts is
49:08
working change, coaching at gmail.
49:11
com.
49:11
So they can reach out to us through that, but they, I think a lot of
49:14
people connect to us through you and people are welcome to do that
49:18
to you.
49:19
Yeah.
49:19
Yeah.
49:20
They use our names also.
49:22
That's pretty easy.
49:23
Marla Christensen counseling at Gmail and then it's Nate Christensen
49:27
counseling at Gmail is another way.
49:30
All right.
49:31
Lots of
49:32
emails, people.
49:33
Exactly.
49:33
I'll have
49:33
them all in the show notes.
49:35
I will do that.
49:35
All right.
49:36
Thanks, you guys.
49:36
I'm going to have to stop.
49:37
Hang on one second.
49:38
Okay.
49:39
Thanks, you guys.