Latest / The Virtual Couch / Why You Fell for Your Partner (and Why You Keep Fighting Them) — Part 2

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Why You Fell for Your Partner (and Why You Keep Fighting Them) — Part 2 · The Virtual Couch

• 0:22
  Hey everybody.
• 0:23
  Welcome back to the virtual couch.
• 0:24
  This is part two of two in these episodes we're talking about
• 0:28
  attachment styles, origin stories, the healthy and unhealthy versions
• 0:31
  of a fictional couple, Jack and Jill.
• 0:34
  this couple is based off of an accumulation of real
• 0:36
  couples we're exploring.
• 0:38
  What is at the core of , their marital struggles.
• 0:40
  And it's stuff that I see in my office as a couple's therapist on a daily basis.
• 0:44
  And if you have not listened to part one, , I really think you need to stop
• 0:47
  this episode right now and go listen to . We're talking about a lot of things.
• 0:52
  We're talking about the pursuer and the withdrawal dynamic.
• 0:55
  About the origin stories of attachment styles, . Work from a guy named Dan
• 0:58
  Siegel, who talks about co-regulating each other's emotional states.
• 1:02
  Since I released the first episode, the amount of feedback I've got on
• 1:06
  people that said, I had no idea that we really are two central nervous systems
• 1:09
  that are just reacting to each other.
• 1:11
  That when you can really slow things down or you're aware you can start to heal.
• 1:15
  Not like you'll fix everything in a few days, . It can be a really
• 1:18
  big part to help you get out of the negative cycle that you may be
• 1:21
  experiencing in your relationship.
• 1:23
  Previously in part one, following Jack and Jill, these were two
• 1:26
  people whose childhood experiences shared opposite attachment styles.
• 1:30
  Jill had learned to chase love to avoid abandonment.
• 1:33
  She didn't wanna be alone, but she's gonna chase, chase, chase and pursue.
• 1:36
  Jack Learned to retreat to avoid rejection.
• 1:39
  Their nervous systems danced this painful loop of pursuit and
• 1:42
  withdrawal, withdrawal and pursuit, but both wanted the same thing.
• 1:45
  They wanted to feel safe.
• 1:47
  They wanted to feel heard and understood, but they were finding
• 1:49
  themselves alone in their marriage.
• 1:52
  And it got to the point . Jack pulls in the driveway.
• 1:55
  Jill's nervous system is already on high alert.
• 1:57
  And Jack's , walking in, knowing that, okay, what am I gonna run into as well?
• 2:02
  And so when they meet, they're already in these heightened states of anxiety
• 2:05
  and fear and anger, and they do that long enough that their bodies are
• 2:09
  just saying, oh, this is what we do.
• 2:11
  When I get around this person, I already am anticipating how this is gonna go.
• 2:16
  So the game's already hijacked
• 2:17
  In part one, we watched Jill and Jack play out this whole dynamic and
• 2:21
  it was rooted in their childhoods.
• 2:23
  Our childhoods do shape our nervous systems.
• 2:25
  . Jill learned to chase connection to feel safe.
• 2:28
  She had a mom who was present sometimes.
• 2:32
  So Jill would come home with accomplishments or awards or
• 2:35
  things that she really needed to process with her parents, and her
• 2:39
  mom would be available sometimes.
• 2:40
  And then when her mom would realize she wasn't available, then she would
• 2:43
  go and apologize and cry, and Jill would end up comforting her mom.
• 2:47
  Jill's dad was somewhat absent, she learned that her
• 2:50
  feelings, her emotions were.
• 2:51
  Usually too much that she was the one that needed to figure out, what can I do
• 2:56
  to make this other person feel better?
• 2:58
  Even if it was at the cost of her own self, she would feel
• 3:02
  like she's betraying herself.
• 3:04
  So she chases connection to try to feel safe, but she's chasing someone
• 3:08
  that is not trying to really connect.
• 3:11
  The familiar for her becomes the person that is inconsistent
• 3:15
  and that won't be there for me.
• 3:16
  Jack learned to withdraw to feel safe.
• 3:19
  Jack had more of a, we'll call it an abusive or violent upbringing.
• 3:23
  He learned take it to withdraw, to sit this one out and
• 3:26
  while he craved connection.
• 3:28
  He saw that in Jill early on and Jill saw his stoicism as safety.
• 3:34
  But then as they got together now these real childhood patterns started to emerge.
• 3:38
  Now, the good news is that's normal.
• 3:41
  We often go toward the familiar in our relationships, but the hope is that
• 3:44
  we will then be able to heal, ideally heal together, but we're definitely
• 3:47
  gonna learn to heal ourselves.
• 3:48
  . They were fighting these ghosts, but they were ghosts of their past.
• 3:52
  They were reacting not to really each other, but to their history of trauma,
• 3:56
  of feeling not seen or understood.
• 3:59
  And so that felt familiar.
• 4:01
  So what if we could rewind, what if Jill's parents had known how to
• 4:04
  hold space for her emotions without making her responsible for theirs?
• 4:07
  And what if Jack's father had modeled vulnerability instead of criticism?
• 4:12
  What if both of them had grown up in homes where emotions were
• 4:14
  safe and repair was possible?
• 4:15
  And love, here's the key, was consistent.
• 4:19
  'cause then the kid can count on their parent to be this lighthouse, this beacon.
• 4:24
  And it doesn't mean they're gonna be a pushover or they can just
• 4:26
  walk all over their parents,
• 4:28
  if their parents really knew what secure attachment was like, and
• 4:30
  bless all of us parents and older people, and even people that are just
• 4:34
  start trying to figure this out now.
• 4:36
  We didn't know this stuff or we weren't paying attention.
• 4:38
  Or sometimes you have to get to a pretty, I wanna say crummy place to have to
• 4:42
  now say, I don't know what else to do.
• 4:45
  And then I can start this journey of healing.
• 4:47
  Now some people do take on this journey of somewhat victimhood and bless their
• 4:52
  hearts because that can be scary to really be open and vulnerable and
• 4:55
  put yourself out there if you really don't know exactly what you're doing.
• 4:58
  But today I wanna explore the version of the story of what it would look
• 5:02
  like from a healthy standpoint.
• 5:04
  I think it's good to at least show us , what healthy would look like
• 5:09
  or could have looked like with the, bless our parents' hearts.
• 5:12
  They tried with the tools that they had.
• 5:15
  So there's some acceptance there.
• 5:16
  There's probably some forgiveness there.
• 5:18
  And now with that acceptance, now I can move forward.
• 5:21
  Let's talk about the healthy path, because these two paths don't just
• 5:25
  show you what happens in relationships.
• 5:26
  They show why we love and argue and connect the way we do, and maybe most
• 5:31
  importantly, they can remind us that while we can't change the past until
• 5:34
  somebody figures out a time machine,
• 5:36
  we can absolutely learn to rewrite the patterns that the past has left behind.
• 5:41
  I'm one of those that would always ask the question of why.
• 5:44
  Why do we take history classes again?
• 5:45
  And I would hear this because we don't wanna repeat the past insert to joke
• 5:49
  about current situation in world now, but in reality there's a lot of truth
• 5:55
  to that, that when I can see, oh, these patterns lead to this outcome,
• 5:58
  if I think it's not gonna lead to that outcome, boy, I think I'm pretty special.
• 6:02
  And so history is there to teach us.
• 6:04
  So let's step back into Jill and Jack's story and see what happens
• 6:07
  when emotional safety is the starting point, not the struggle.
• 6:10
  Now, before we go there, I would love for you to go find me on
• 6:14
  Substack Substack, I think it's dot com slash the virtual couch.
• 6:18
  There'll be a link in the show notes, or go find me on Instagram at virtual
• 6:23
  couch or on TikTok at Virtual Couch.
• 6:25
  Or there's Tony over Bay Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist on Facebook.
• 6:29
  And sign up for my newsletter@tonyoverbay.com.
• 6:32
  Here we go.
• 6:33
  Back to this alternate path, if you are familiar or if you're fresh off of episode
• 6:38
  one, it will sound a lot like the similar story, but we'll hear what it sounds like.
• 6:43
  Healthy.
• 6:44
  So, Jill was seven years old when she learned that feelings
• 6:46
  didn't have to be scary.
• 6:48
  She'd come home from school heartbroken because her best friend
• 6:50
  had uninvited her from a birthday party to invite somebody else.
• 6:53
  Instead, she'll try to hold it together.
• 6:55
  But she's a kid, she's emotional, she's gonna cry.
• 6:57
  She's going to be irrational by definition.
• 7:01
  By the time she walked through the front door, she was crying, she was upset.
• 7:04
  Her mom was in the kitchen making dinner.
• 7:07
  She heard Jill come in, heard the crying, she turned off the stove.
• 7:11
  She walked into the living room and she sat down on the couch and
• 7:14
  she patted the spot next to her.
• 7:16
  Hey, come here sweetheart.
• 7:17
  So Jill sits down and her mom pulls her close, and first her mom does not say
• 7:22
  things like, Hey, don't worry about it.
• 7:23
  It's not a big deal.
• 7:25
  Or you'll make other friends, or any of the things that adults like to say, coming
• 7:29
  from a good place, in reality, to make themselves feel like I am a good parent.
• 7:33
  I told them not to worry about it, but does the kid all of a
• 7:36
  sudden go, holy cow, I did not think about not worrying about it.
• 7:40
  No.
• 7:40
  Then they think, oh my gosh, I, and my feelings are bad, or they're wrong.
• 7:44
  By doing this, Jill's mom didn't make Jill's feelings feel smaller or wrong.
• 7:49
  She just said, Hey, tell me what happened.
• 7:51
  And Jill explained through tears, and her mom listened and her mom nodded.
• 7:54
  And occasionally her mom rubbed her back in slow circles.
• 7:58
  And when Jill finished, her mom said, man, that sounds really hard.
• 8:01
  That looks like it really hurt your feelings, didn't it?
• 8:04
  And Jill whispers.
• 8:04
  Yeah.
• 8:05
  And the mom says, you know, that makes a lot of sense.
• 8:07
  I think that would hurt my feelings too.
• 8:09
  Being left out feels terrible.
• 8:11
  They sat there together for a few more minutes in the silence, and that's
• 8:15
  one of the most difficult things to do as a parent, is when there's silence.
• 8:18
  If you really break it down, I believe so often, at least for myself, I
• 8:22
  get uncomfortable with silence.
• 8:24
  It's a challenge.
• 8:25
  In the therapy world.
• 8:25
  We're supposed to be really good at sitting with silence so that
• 8:28
  the client will then say something because with that silence, often
• 8:32
  I think, man, my job is to rescue.
• 8:35
  I gotta say something.
• 8:36
  Sometimes it's a joke.
• 8:38
  A lot of times it's just.
• 8:40
  Tell me more about that.
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  But often letting the silence just be also teaches us that we
• 8:45
  can sit with some uncomfortable feelings and emotions and it's okay.
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  Time passes.
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  The world keeps spinning.
• 8:52
  So over time, Jill's breathing even out, and her crying slowed.
• 8:56
  And her mom said, what do you think you want to do?
• 8:59
  Do you wanna talk to your friend about how you feel?
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  Do you wanna take some space from the friendship, or do you just want to
• 9:03
  kind of let it be and see what happens?
• 9:05
  And Jill said, I don't know.
• 9:07
  Her mom said, that is perfectly okay.
• 9:09
  You don't have to know right now, but I just want you to know I'm here
• 9:12
  whenever you want to talk about it more.
• 9:14
  Would that be okay if I maybe checked in on you again tonight and Jill said,
• 9:17
  I guess now I want to go on so many tangents there can be a version of
• 9:22
  this that is the middle ground where the parent is holding it all together
• 9:26
  and providing that space and safety.
• 9:28
  But then at some point the parent realizes, okay, . I guess,
• 9:31
  I mean, how am I gonna know?
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  And the parent can quickly make it about them again.
• 9:35
  It's okay to just leave things there.
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  Now, imagine that's the pattern of Jill's childhood.
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  Her feelings are allowed to exist.
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  They weren't fixed or dismissed or made into emergencies.
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  They just were.
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  Her parents held space for him.
• 9:48
  Later, when Jill didn't make a soccer team at 10, her dad sat her on the front
• 9:51
  porch and said, man, how you doing?
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  Are you okay?
• 9:55
  And again, she says, no.
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  And he says, I can see that you're pretty disappointed.
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  He didn't try to make it better.
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  He observed.
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  He witnessed.
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  He acknowledged, I see you.
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  When Jill was anxious before her first day of middle school at 11,
• 10:09
  her mom said, how you feeling?
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  And Jill was scared.
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  And instead of her mom saying, okay, come on the party example, soccer,
• 10:17
  don't you see things get better?
• 10:18
  Oh no.
• 10:19
  She said, man, yeah, new things can feel pretty scary.
• 10:22
  Is there anything that I could do that would help you feel a little braver?
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  And at first, Jill said, no.
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  Then the mom threw out some options and they talked through 'em.
• 10:29
  Her mom didn't take the fear away, but she helped Jill feel less alone in it.
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  And she packed her something pretty cute and adorable at lunch.
• 10:37
  And when Jill saw that, 'cause she had forgotten about it, she had a little
• 10:40
  chuckle and she felt seen when Jill's first boyfriend broke up with her at 16.
• 10:45
  Both parents let her be sad , and they just held her and they just
• 10:48
  sat with her and they watched movies and they said, how you feeling?
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  They didn't rush her past it.
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  . They didn't let her stay in bed for a whole week.
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  They were there.
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  They were grounded.
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  She was able to borrow their nervous system, their emotional regulation system
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  like she had done when she was a baby.
• 11:04
  Part one, I quoted Dan Siegel quite a bit.
• 11:06
  He's the one that really popularized the idea that our minds don't
• 11:09
  stop at the edge of our skulls.
• 11:10
  They extend into our relationships, and he calls it interpersonal neurobiology.
• 11:14
  And it's the study of how connections between us actually
• 11:17
  shape the wiring inside of us.
• 11:19
  Siegel often says we are creatures of connection, so from the moment that
• 11:22
  we're born, our nervous systems are designed to link up with someone else's.
• 11:26
  So a newborn doesn't have a fully developed ability to
• 11:28
  calm down or regulated emotions or feel safe on their own.
• 11:31
  So they borrow their caregiver's nervous system, and that's what Jill was doing
• 11:35
  at times when she really needed it and her parent could be grounded or calm.
• 11:39
  When a baby cries, the parent will pick 'em up and rock
• 11:42
  'em and hum to them softly.
• 11:44
  That's co-regulation and action.
• 11:46
  The baby's heartbeat eventually slows down to match the parents and the body learns.
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  When I am upset and someone calm shows up, I survive and I can even thrive.
• 11:55
  So that pattern, this nervous system sinking together
• 11:58
  doesn't stop when we grow up.
• 12:00
  As adults, we do the same thing , when we laugh with a friend or we
• 12:02
  hold somebody's hand, or we even exchange just a genuine smile.
• 12:05
  Our nervous systems are making a connection.
• 12:07
  We're sending these signals of safe danger, connect or protect.
• 12:12
  So when you look at what healthy co-regulation looks like,
• 12:14
  it feels more like teamwork.
• 12:16
  Each person can lean on the other without losing themselves.
• 12:19
  You come home from a long, stressful day and your partner can sense that you're
• 12:22
  tense and they don't immediately try to fix it or just say, Hey, just relax.
• 12:25
  They just sit next to you.
• 12:26
  They maybe put a hand on your arm or your leg and let that oxytocin, the cuddle
• 12:30
  hormone flow, the hormone of connection, and they may say, how was the day?
• 12:37
  Rough.
• 12:39
  They say, I'm not a dog.
• 12:40
  Sorry, . I could not do that.
• 12:41
  , you might exhale and your shoulders drop and you didn't need advice and
• 12:44
  your calm becomes contagious Often.
• 12:48
  All we need is that solid, stable presence by us.
• 12:51
  The thing that if we would've had more of that from our parents,
• 12:55
  bless their heart, a lot of 'em didn't know what they were doing.
• 12:57
  They were doing their best.
• 12:59
  But if you look at it that way, when a parent feels anxious and they're saying,
• 13:02
  Hey, I need to get you to calm down because that will make me feel better.
• 13:05
  I need you to not do that, , I need you to know.
• 13:08
  I need you to do and I need you to understand are me things
• 13:12
  that would make me feel better.
• 13:14
  But as a parent, I would love to help us get outside of our ego and
• 13:17
  say, how can I be here for you?
• 13:19
  Or I can be here for you.
• 13:20
  I can provide this safety, this container for you.
• 13:24
  As I am here and present and calm and not trying to fix or tell you you're
• 13:27
  doing something wrong, then your nervous system can start to co-regulate with mine.
• 13:31
  Borrow mine for a little bit.
• 13:32
  I'm good, and together we will be good.
• 13:36
  But if I start saying, you know what you need to do or you need to calm down, what
• 13:39
  I'm basically saying is, Hey, this is uncomfortable for me even though you're
• 13:43
  the one that came to me with your big emotions, but I need you to calm down.
• 13:47
  I could even say it in a nice voice.
• 13:49
  Hey, don't worry about it.
• 13:51
  It's not that big of a deal, because if you'll then say,
• 13:53
  okay, I guess it's not, oh good.
• 13:55
  I not only feel better about myself, but I can also say I'm a real good parent.
• 14:00
  So often the person that's coming to us does not need advice.
• 14:03
  They need our presence.
• 14:05
  They need our calm, they need our curiosity.
• 14:07
  They need space.
• 14:09
  They need to know I see you and I'm here for you, and I don't have to fix whatever
• 14:13
  you're bringing me, and I'm not gonna tell you what you're doing or thinking
• 14:16
  is wrong, and I'm not gonna make it into a story about me even if I want to.
• 14:20
  Your calm becomes contagious.
• 14:23
  Another example of that is, let's say you're nervous about giving a presentation
• 14:26
  and your friend says, Hey, you got this.
• 14:28
  You've done hard things before.
• 14:29
  Their grounded tone can help your body remember your own
• 14:32
  capability that's co-regulation.
• 14:35
  Your brain literally sinking with someone else's calm, confidence.
• 14:39
  Healthy co-regulation doesn't mean one person is always the
• 14:41
  calm one either, it's mutual.
• 14:43
  It's reciprocal.
• 14:44
  When you are in an emotionally immature relationship, co-regulation becomes
• 14:48
  one-sided and instead of a steady exchange, one person ends up doing
• 14:52
  the majority of the emotional labor.
• 14:54
  Say you're upset after a difficult conversation with your teenager,
• 14:57
  and you try to tell your partner about it, and the moment that , you
• 15:01
  hesitate, or your voice shakes, they will roll their eyes and they'll
• 15:03
  say, okay, you're overreacting again.
• 15:06
  Now all of a sudden, your nervous system spikes
• 15:07
  not really because of what they just said, but because the person that's supposed to
• 15:10
  be your person, your emotional anchor just pulled away and instead of calming your
• 15:13
  body goes into fight, flight, or freeze.
• 15:16
  In these moments, your body doesn't care about who's right.
• 15:19
  It just wants connection.
• 15:21
  And if that connection continues to be inconsistent or unpredictable,
• 15:25
  your nervous system learns.
• 15:26
  Relationships equal instability, and they're unpredictable.
• 15:30
  And that's the beginning of a trauma bond.
• 15:32
  Dan Siegel explains that the mind is both embodied and relational.
• 15:36
  It exists in a this flow state between brains.
• 15:40
  Let's get woo woo.
• 15:40
  . It's about an exchange of energy, of safety, of peace.
• 15:43
  If you spend enough time around somebody who's calm and present and
• 15:46
  emotionally safe, your own brain starts to wire for calm and safety too.
• 15:50
  We will figure this out.
• 15:51
  We've got this.
• 15:53
  I'm here for you.
• 15:53
  I can make space for you and your emotions.
• 15:56
  If you spend a lot of time around somebody who's volatile, they're
• 15:58
  dismissive, they're unpredictable, your brain wires for hyper vigilance.
• 16:03
  Instead, you learn to scan and anticipate and appease and fix and play small.
• 16:09
  Your nervous system says, okay, I get it.
• 16:11
  Connection equals tension and criticism and fear.
• 16:15
  Got it.
• 16:15
  I'm gonna prepare for that.
• 16:16
  So let's get back to Jill because I wanna talk about Jill's
• 16:19
  parents and what they modeled.
• 16:20
  They weren't perfect, but Jill was able to, on numerous occasions, watch her
• 16:25
  parents navigate their own conflict.
• 16:27
  They didn't pretend that disagreements didn't happen.
• 16:29
  And there was one example in particular that stood out to
• 16:33
  Jill when she was about 12 or 13.
• 16:35
  She heard her parents having a really intense discussion about whether
• 16:38
  or not to take out a home equity line of credit or a second mortgage
• 16:41
  for renovations for their house.
• 16:43
  And her father's voice was frustrated and she remembers feeling tension.
• 16:47
  And she heard her dad say something like, I feel like you're not hearing
• 16:51
  my concerns about the financial risk that we're about to take on.
• 16:55
  And her mom's voice was pretty strained.
• 16:58
  And she said, and I feel like you're dismissing what I'm saying
• 17:01
  about the house needing repairs.
• 17:03
  There was a pause and then her dad said, okay that's fair.
• 17:06
  You're right.
• 17:07
  I am very worried about money and I wasn't really listening to your point.
• 17:10
  Can we start over?
• 17:12
  And it's so fascinating because if you're listening to this and
• 17:14
  if you found yourself thinking, okay, what, what's the angle?
• 17:16
  Is he just trying to get his way?
• 17:18
  You're not cynical, you're normal, you're human.
• 17:20
  That's what I thought as a marriage therapist as well,
• 17:22
  when I first heard this.
• 17:23
  And then apparently they talked it through and Jill heard them
• 17:26
  finding some sort of middle ground.
• 17:27
  She was very young though, so she just remembers that.
• 17:29
  It was like the mouth noises got very calm and it sounded like
• 17:33
  their parents figured things out.
• 17:35
  But then she still was a little bit rattled from hearing
• 17:37
  them get intense or strained.
• 17:41
  But from what she could tell both people bent a little bit.
• 17:43
  Nobody stormed out, nobody gave anybody the silent treatment.
• 17:46
  And what was really amazing is later her dad came to say goodnight to Jill
• 17:50
  and noticed that Jill looked a little worried and he didn't just say, man,
• 17:54
  I don't wanna bring anything up, just in case she didn't hear anything.
• 17:57
  And I think so often it's easier for a parent to just say, Hey, goodnight champ.
• 18:01
  And then the kids left sitting there not knowing what to do with their emotions.
• 18:04
  So her dad said, Hey, did you hear us talking earlier and Jill 'cause of the
• 18:09
  work that had been done providing safety and stability emotionally in the home?
• 18:14
  She said, yeah, 'cause I can think of how many of us as kids
• 18:17
  would've said, no, I'm fine.
• 18:20
  Then the parent feels relief.
• 18:21
  Okay, cool.
• 18:21
  Good.
• 18:22
  But so Jill said, yeah, I did hear that.
• 18:25
  And he said, I know that might have felt uncomfortable, but I just want you to
• 18:28
  know that I love your mom and we see things differently sometimes, and that
• 18:32
  is perfectly okay, but we're working on things, and we're working through them.
• 18:36
  Disagreeing does not mean that we don't love each other.
• 18:39
  What Jill's nervous system learned is that emotions are manageable and
• 18:43
  they don't destroy relationships.
• 18:45
  People can be upset and they can still stay connected.
• 18:47
  Conflict can be resolved, and it doesn't have to get mean or nasty or punitive.
• 18:52
  It doesn't have to end in this fear of abandonment or in an
• 18:55
  explosion of big feelings.
• 18:58
  What she also learned was, I can feel my feelings without being overwhelmed by
• 19:01
  them or overwhelming others, connection is stable even when things are difficult,
• 19:08
  and we can have conversations that might be uncomfortable because they're
• 19:12
  gonna actually turn into good moments where we both feel understood and you
• 19:17
  start to feel that intimate connection.
• 19:21
  People can still disagree and respect each other.
• 19:24
  It's safe to be vulnerable because people will meet me there in my vulnerability
• 19:28
  and they won't use it against me.
• 19:30
  So by the time Jill left for college, her nervous system was
• 19:33
  wired for a secure attachment.
• 19:34
  She could recognize her own emotions, she could express 'em clearly and
• 19:37
  trust that others could handle them if someone else couldn't.
• 19:41
  It wasn't like Jill didn't understand why this person was acting the way
• 19:45
  they would, but she understood that this is not somebody that I am wanting
• 19:50
  to spend a lot of time with or I'm not gonna continue to open up to.
• 19:53
  She started forming friendships where she could just be herself, not
• 19:55
  perfect, not performing, just present.
• 19:58
  And Dan Siegel's framework.
• 19:59
  Jill's mind had developed integration.
• 20:02
  Her parents had consistently provided what Siegel calls mind sight or the ability to
• 20:06
  see and understand her inner experience.
• 20:09
  They were genuinely curious.
• 20:11
  She felt able to express herself and not be perfect.
• 20:14
  She felt a connection with someone who.
• 20:17
  Truly saw her.
• 20:18
  So that's what she's gonna go seek out in her adult relationships.
• 20:21
  She now knows her inner experience is okay.
• 20:25
  It's fine.
• 20:25
  She's okay, she's fine.
• 20:27
  Her parents had served as her external nervous system regulators when she was
• 20:31
  young, when she really needed them.
• 20:33
  And gradually then she learned to internalize that
• 20:36
  regulation and trust herself.
• 20:38
  Her brain had wired itself.
• 20:39
  For one central belief, connection is safe, and I can navigate emotions
• 20:43
  without losing myself or others.
• 20:46
  When your nervous system is wired to trust that connection feels safe, then if
• 20:50
  it feels unsafe, that is not connection.
• 20:53
  So that's not someone that I want to spend time with.
• 20:55
  Now let's turn to Jack.
• 20:57
  And this is again, in this alternate path, in this version that I don't
• 21:01
  know if I've already made a joke about that comes with the unicorn
• 21:05
  and the rainbow and the leprechaun walking around with the pot of gold.
• 21:09
  But I guess I just did.
• 21:10
  Jack was nine years old when he learned that struggling, didn't mean failing.
• 21:14
  He'd been trying to understand math, long division for a week or more,
• 21:17
  and his teacher had explained it a couple of times, but something about
• 21:20
  the concept just wouldn't click.
• 21:22
  And he really felt dumb, which made it even harder to think,
• 21:25
  which made him feel worse.
• 21:26
  And it was just this loop, this frustrating cycle.
• 21:29
  One night at dinner, Jack was quiet and pushing food around his plate.
• 21:33
  His dad said, hey, you all right buddy?
• 21:35
  Jack hesitated.
• 21:37
  Much like we talked about in this healthy version of Jill, he knew
• 21:41
  that he could express himself.
• 21:43
  In his experience so far, admitting that you didn't understand something
• 21:48
  wasn't the end of the world.
• 21:49
  He's still a kid.
• 21:50
  So it's still risky because he's a kid.
• 21:53
  And this is why this is so important to be genuinely curious and make
• 21:56
  space for your kids' emotions because they're wired to worry because
• 22:00
  , anxiety is there for a reason.
• 22:02
  It's there to try to protect us.
• 22:04
  So it felt risky, but something in his father's tone made him feel safe.
• 22:09
  He thought, why not?
• 22:10
  I'll try.
• 22:10
  And he said, I'm really stuck on my math homework and I don't
• 22:13
  really understand long division.
• 22:14
  And I've tried, and my teacher seems to be getting frustrated with
• 22:17
  me and I don't know what to do.
• 22:19
  And everybody else is getting it and starting to do what Gottman calls
• 22:22
  Kitchen sinking, just throwing everything in there because he just doesn't,
• 22:25
  he doesn't like how he feels inside.
• 22:27
  And so his father nodded.
• 22:29
  I hear you.
• 22:29
  Math can be really, really tricky.
• 22:31
  I remember long division giving me a lot of trouble when I was your age as well.
• 22:35
  Not the version of Unhealthy Jack that we heard last week
• 22:38
  his dad did not pull the.
• 22:40
  Napoleon Dynamite, uncle Rico, a moment where he could throw
• 22:43
  a football over that mountain.
• 22:44
  He didn't say, you know, Jack, when I was your age, I was actually teaching
• 22:48
  the class and the teacher long division, and she was saying, thank you so much.
• 22:52
  I did not understand that concept before you seven, eight, 9-year-old,
• 22:56
  Jack, help me understand.
• 22:57
  No, Jack looked up and said, really?
• 23:01
  And his dad said, yeah, it took me forever to figure it out.
• 23:03
  And then his father paused and took his last bite and he said,
• 23:06
  Hey, do you want any help?
• 23:07
  I'd love to.
• 23:08
  I'd love to help out if I can.
• 23:10
  They sat down together at the table.
• 23:11
  Jack showed his dad the problems.
• 23:13
  His dad didn't take over.
• 23:14
  He didn't do it for him.
• 23:16
  He didn't get frustrated.
• 23:17
  And I will say over and over, this was not me as a parent, I know that if my kids had
• 23:23
  a struggle with something that I could do.
• 23:26
  Math was not my forte.
• 23:28
  I felt kind of silly.
• 23:29
  I did not help them much with math because I think I was so immature, emotionally
• 23:33
  immature and embarrassed that, yeah, I don't really understand it either, but
• 23:36
  to like third grade or fourth grade math.
• 23:38
  But if they had to write something, oh, I love the writing.
• 23:40
  So then I don't know if my kids were playing me or not, now that I'm
• 23:43
  thinking about this in real time.
• 23:44
  But if they were saying, oh my gosh, dad, I just don't know how to write this thing.
• 23:47
  You like writing?
• 23:48
  And I, I would say yes, I do.
• 23:50
  And I would probably pull an Uncle Rico moment.
• 23:52
  You know, I write a newspaper column and a blog and I'm working on a book.
• 23:55
  They probably thought, yeah, we know.
• 23:58
  But then, I would help 'em write.
• 23:59
  And then, I got a lot of good grades and middle school and in
• 24:03
  high school on behalf of my kids.
• 24:05
  But no, Jack's dad says, Hey, walk me through what you're thinking
• 24:08
  when you look at this problem.
• 24:10
  Jack felt safe.
• 24:11
  He explained his confusion.
• 24:12
  His dad listened and said, oh, okay.
• 24:14
  I think I can understand what's happening here.
• 24:16
  I can see where you're getting tangled up.
• 24:17
  Lemme show you how I think about it.
• 24:19
  That's what I like.
• 24:19
  And it wasn't a, well, why don't you do this?
• 24:22
  Or You should be doing this.
• 24:23
  I hear you make space.
• 24:25
  And then, Hey, can I offer up something?
• 24:28
  Let me kinda show you what I do or the way that it works for me.
• 24:31
  But you know, I want you to find your process.
• 24:33
  So they worked through one problem together.
• 24:34
  Slowly, dad breaks into smaller steps.
• 24:37
  And when Jack got confused again, his dad didn't sigh or criticize
• 24:40
  and say, Hey, I already said it.
• 24:41
  I don't know what, what else I'm supposed to do now.
• 24:43
  He said, okay, let's take a look at it from a different angle.
• 24:46
  And by the end, Jack solved the problem on his own and his dad
• 24:49
  smiled and said, you got it.
• 24:50
  And your brain just needed a minute to catch up with the concept.
• 24:52
  And that's how learning works.
• 24:54
  This was a pattern of this healthy version of Jack's childhood.
• 24:57
  When things were hard and help was available, it was there without judgment.
• 25:01
  When he struggled, it didn't mean that he was broken.
• 25:03
  It meant that he was learning, which is the way we learn.
• 25:05
  You don't know things that you don't know, and then you're gonna learn him.
• 25:09
  So when somebody else is saying, man, that was easy for me.
• 25:11
  Okay, let me go get a some little small trophies, some attaboy trophies
• 25:16
  and I can keep 'em around the house.
• 25:17
  And whenever you, you can tell me about how great things were for you.
• 25:21
  I will give you a trophy.
• 25:22
  When Jack was cut from the basketball team at 1314, he came home and he
• 25:26
  was devastated and his father found him in his room that evening and he
• 25:30
  didn't say, you know, Michael Jordan was cut from his team and he went on
• 25:33
  to be the greatest player of all time.
• 25:34
  there you go.
• 25:35
  Good talk.
• 25:36
  Go get him.
• 25:37
  No, he found Jack in his room and Jack said, coach said, I'm not good enough.
• 25:42
  Jack's voice was tight and he held back tears and his dad
• 25:45
  sat on the edge of the bed.
• 25:46
  He's like, man, that is a hard thing to hear.
• 25:48
  I am so sorry that happened.
• 25:51
  What was that like?
• 25:52
  Jack shrugged.
• 25:53
  It doesn't matter.
• 25:54
  And his dad said, Hey, it's okay to be disappointed.
• 25:56
  It really is.
• 25:57
  And getting cut sucks.
• 25:59
  I know you've worked really hard.
• 26:01
  And Jack finally looked up and there were tears in his eyes and his dad didn't tell
• 26:04
  him, Hey, but rub a little dirt in it.
• 26:06
  , You're just lucky to even get to play.
• 26:08
  My dad, made me play basketball with a rock I wouldn't even bounce.
• 26:11
  And we had no shoes, and we played in the snow.
• 26:13
  He didn't hear that.
• 26:15
  His dad said, I'm just proud of you for trying.
• 26:19
  And his dad sat there present with Jack's pain.
• 26:22
  After a few minutes, his dad asked, Hey, anything else you think about doing?
• 26:25
  Are you already thinking about trying out next year?
• 26:26
  Do you wanna look at a different sport?
• 26:29
  Do you wanna take a break on sports for a while?
• 26:31
  And Jack said, I don't know.
• 26:33
  And his dad said, that is absolutely fair, and you don't have to
• 26:36
  decide right now, but I just want you to know there's no thought.
• 26:39
  That's gonna be crazy here if you want to go find a local badminton
• 26:43
  club, if you want to discover what curling is, I'll get you a broom.
• 26:46
  Whatever you need, just let me know.
• 26:48
  Jack also learned about healthy conflict by watching his parents.
• 26:51
  They disagreed sometimes about money parenting decisions where
• 26:55
  to spend holidays, but their disagreements never felt dangerous.
• 26:58
  As a matter of fact, the real ish client that some of Jack is based off of said
• 27:06
  that he and a couple of his siblings
• 27:08
  they often viewed the conversation that their parents would have about
• 27:10
  Where are we gonna go on vacation?
• 27:12
  He said, if it was the modern day, they would've probably placed some bets.
• 27:15
  'cause he said it was fascinating because they were hilarious, they were sarcastic,
• 27:19
  they were witty, they were funny.
• 27:20
  One year Jack's dad did a PowerPoint presentation to try to make his case.
• 27:25
  That's a better way to handle potential conflict.
• 27:29
  One evening when Jack was around 14, he did hear his parents having a really
• 27:33
  heated discussion in the kitchen.
• 27:34
  So it felt off, and he remembers that his mom's voice felt pretty tight.
• 27:41
  She said, I feel like I'm managing all the kids' schedules all by myself.
• 27:44
  I need more help.
• 27:46
  His father's voice was a little defensive.
• 27:47
  He's like, Hey, I'm working long hours right now.
• 27:50
  I'm not sure what else I can give.
• 27:52
  So there was tension and Jack remembers feeling his chest
• 27:55
  tighten a knot in his stomach.
• 27:57
  And he just didn't know what was gonna come next.
• 28:00
  He didn't know if there was gonna be an explosion of anger or just.
• 28:03
  Silent treatment or whatever it would be.
• 28:06
  But instead he heard his father take, a breath, a pause,
• 28:09
  and he said, you know what?
• 28:11
  I hear you and I can hear that you're overwhelmed and
• 28:14
  I know I'm getting defensive.
• 28:16
  Can we have a timeout?
• 28:17
  Jack remembers this because he remembers thinking timeout is in sports.
• 28:21
  I love that that seared into his little brain.
• 28:24
  But his dad said, I need a timeout.
• 28:26
  I'm getting defensive and I need to calm down because I want to listen to you.
• 28:29
  And he remembers his mom saying, Hey, I need to take a break as well.
• 28:33
  And he remembers.
• 28:34
  His parents went out on a walk and then they came back in and
• 28:38
  they seemed happy and joyous.
• 28:40
  And he said, they picked up the conversation, they talked for another
• 28:42
  20 or 30 minutes, and Jack couldn't hear it all, but he said he heard the
• 28:46
  tone, the vocal tones, the mouth noises, and their voices gradually softened.
• 28:51
  And at one point he heard his mom say, I really appreciate you making
• 28:55
  space and having the courage.
• 28:58
  To say I needed a break that was really big.
• 29:00
  And then his dad saying, I appreciate you the next day.
• 29:05
  His dad then apologized to the family for being less present lately, and he
• 29:09
  acknowledged that he had been spending a lot of time at work because he and
• 29:14
  his mom had had some misunderstanding about some plans for the future, and he
• 29:18
  had felt like he needed to work more.
• 29:20
  So he told the family about a new schedule where he'd be home
• 29:23
  earlier, a couple times a week.
• 29:24
  He was gonna help more with dinner and homework, and he followed through.
• 29:29
  It wasn't just something to say to make himself feel better in the moment.
• 29:32
  He took action and changed what Jack's nervous system learned.
• 29:37
  Asking for help is normal.
• 29:38
  It's not weak.
• 29:39
  Vulnerability doesn't lead to an attack or rejection.
• 29:42
  Conflict can be uncomfortable, but not dangerous.
• 29:45
  It's okay to be aware that I'm starting to get a little bit emotionally flooded
• 29:50
  or overwhelmed and I need to take a break.
• 29:52
  People can disagree strongly and they can still love each other and emotions.
• 29:55
  Yours and others aren't threats to be avoided.
• 29:57
  We'll find a way whether we have to take a break, whether I need
• 30:01
  to do a reset, whatever that looks like, we'll find a way through it.
• 30:05
  Taking space is okay.
• 30:07
  If you come back to repair, that's the key.
• 30:09
  Connection feels safe.
• 30:10
  It doesn't have to feel suffocating.
• 30:12
  If I am noticing that I'm feeling suffocated, I actually can take a
• 30:16
  break or I can express that to my partner and not have this fear that
• 30:20
  they're gonna say, well, there you go.
• 30:21
  What am I supposed to do?
• 30:22
  Not go into this victim mentality.
• 30:24
  And his little nervous system learned that other people's needs don't trap
• 30:27
  you their information about how to care for each other or yourself.
• 30:32
  So by the time Jack leaves for college, his nervous system was
• 30:34
  wired for a secure attachment.
• 30:36
  He could recognize his own limits.
• 30:38
  He could communicate them.
• 30:39
  He could be present with other people's emotions without feeling overwhelmed.
• 30:42
  He could be independent without being isolated and he knew
• 30:45
  how to take care of a unicorn.
• 30:47
  In interpersonal neurobiology terms, jacket developed what Dan Siegel
• 30:51
  called integration, the linking of these differentiated parts so he could
• 30:55
  be both connected and autonomous.
• 30:58
  His parents had modeled co-regulation, a healthy version of co-regulation.
• 31:02
  When he would become dysregulated, they stayed steady and gradually his
• 31:05
  brain learned that I can go to someone, I can borrow their nervous system in
• 31:12
  a sense, and then I can now lean on that to learn about myself, and I can
• 31:17
  learn to integrate that steadiness into my own central nervous system.
• 31:22
  His brain had wired itself for one central belief.
• 31:25
  Connection is safe and I can be myself while being close to others.
• 31:28
  Now, how did Jack and Jill meet?
• 31:30
  Jack and Jill met through mutual friends at a casual dinner party where they
• 31:33
  were both in their mid to late twenties.
• 31:34
  And it wasn't a dramatic thing.
• 31:36
  There wasn't the lightning bolt or there, there weren't fireworks.
• 31:41
  And I hear so often people that will be in a relationship and it feels nice, it
• 31:44
  feels good, but they say there's no spark.
• 31:47
  And what that means is, there's not enough chaos here.
• 31:50
  So my central nervous system doesn't know what to do with this.
• 31:52
  You don't have to have the lightning bolt, you don't have to have the firework.
• 31:57
  But what you do want is to feel safe and understood and
• 32:01
  heard and of worth and value.
• 32:04
  There isn't this instant certainty if there is actually, that's the
• 32:09
  challenge, that's the problem.
• 32:11
  Why did I all of a sudden just feel this immediate connection?
• 32:13
  Oh my gosh, that's because it's like my parent, it's my dad.
• 32:16
  My nervous system said this feels good drama, chaos.
• 32:20
  Sign me up.
• 32:22
  No, that's what we want to work on ourselves, and we want to be able
• 32:27
  to enter relationships where we feel safe and understood, not just
• 32:32
  a connection, a bond, a trauma bond.
• 32:35
  That's not the goal.
• 32:37
  So when they met, they had some pleasant conversations with
• 32:40
  people who seemed interesting.
• 32:42
  It's not gonna find itself into a Taylor Swift song, but
• 32:45
  we're talking about stability.
• 32:48
  Jill was talking with a group when Jack joined and she asked him about
• 32:51
  his work, and he actually asked her about hers, not so that he could
• 32:55
  then tell more stories about himself.
• 32:56
  The conversation flowed.
• 32:57
  There was a natural rhythm to it.
• 32:59
  Jill noticed that Jack seemed comfortable in his own skin.
• 33:01
  He wasn't dominating the conversation.
• 33:03
  He wasn't baiting into the background.
• 33:04
  He was asking thoughtful questions, but then he would also share
• 33:07
  his own stories, and they didn't seem kind of crazy or grandiose.
• 33:11
  There was a balance to him that felt easy.
• 33:14
  Jack noticed that Jill laughed genuinely.
• 33:16
  She made eye contact without it feeling intense, and she seemed very curious
• 33:20
  about people without being intrusive.
• 33:23
  And when somebody in the group shared a story about a recent
• 33:24
  work failure, Jill said, oh man, that sounds frustrating, period.
• 33:30
  She didn't try to fix it or minimize it, and Jack appreciated that too.
• 33:34
  She could sit with discomfort without needing to manage it away, but it's okay.
• 33:37
  You're the very best, I think of, , this joke often where people
• 33:40
  that are so, so, so kind that if somebody says, man, you know what?
• 33:44
  I just can't stop murdering people.
• 33:46
  And then it's like the kind person, my joke in my head is always, they're
• 33:49
  gonna say, I bet you're the best murderer, though you're probably
• 33:52
  the nicest murderer there is.
• 33:53
  So don't, don't get down on yourself.
• 33:55
  Sounds nice.
• 33:57
  But , it's really this form , of trying to get rid of the
• 34:00
  discomfort and manage it away.
• 34:02
  At one point a friend tried to rope jack into helping with the a last minute move.
• 34:06
  The next day, his only day off after a busy week, this was
• 34:10
  where the masterclass set in.
• 34:11
  According to Jill.
• 34:12
  She watched Jack say kindly, but clearly, man, I can't tomorrow.
• 34:16
  I've got some plans that I've already made with people and I'm a man of my word.
• 34:19
  I follow through on things and then the guy's like, man, and he made the
• 34:23
  right mouth noises or tried to, and facial expressions and posture shifts.
• 34:28
  I was like, oh man, I just, I really thought you'd be able to help.
• 34:30
  I don't know what I'm gonna do.
• 34:32
  And everybody just sat there silent.
• 34:33
  It sounds to those who are so pathologically kind like
• 34:36
  somebody needs to help him.
• 34:38
  And if no one is in a position to help because they know themselves, then that
• 34:43
  does sound really difficult, period.
• 34:45
  I don't have to fix it or manage it away.
• 34:48
  Jill noticed the boundary.
• 34:50
  It was set without guilt, without overexplaining.
• 34:52
  What a key concept that is.
• 34:54
  The more you explain, the more you are handing this person, this
• 34:57
  attack surface that they can say, oh, well I'll poke holes in that.
• 35:00
  Yeah.
• 35:00
  That what if that those plans fall through?
• 35:02
  , Is that friend maybe they don't really wanna go.
• 35:04
  And you might even be doing 'em a favor without overexplaining and
• 35:08
  especially without being harsh.
• 35:10
  That's refreshing thought, Jill.
• 35:12
  He can say no without drama.
• 35:15
  So they exchanged numbers before leaving.
• 35:17
  The texting that followed was comfortable.
• 35:19
  Jill would text, Jack would respond within a reasonable timeframe.
• 35:23
  Neither of them overthought.
• 35:24
  It's been two hours, probably doesn't like me anymore.
• 35:27
  And sometimes he initiated and sometimes she did.
• 35:30
  There wasn't gameplay.
• 35:31
  No three-day wait rules, no anxiety about response times.
• 35:35
  After a few weeks of texting, Jack suggested they go to
• 35:37
  coffee and Jill said yes.
• 35:38
  And the coffee date went well.
• 35:40
  Two hours of conversation that felt natural, not forced.
• 35:42
  They discovered shared interest in hiking and obscured documentaries,
• 35:45
  and they laughed about bad dating stories and they didn't view that as
• 35:49
  an, an attack surface to criticize.
• 35:51
  If Jill talked about her dates, Jack didn't feel jealous and say,
• 35:55
  well, you don't talk to him anymore.
• 35:56
  Do.
• 35:57
  They admitted to each other.
• 35:57
  That dating in their late twenties felt pretty exhausting.
• 36:00
  When Jack walked Jill to her car, he said, Hey, I would love to see
• 36:03
  you again if you're interested.
• 36:04
  And she said, I would like that too.
• 36:06
  What?
• 36:06
  Neither of them consciously realized that they were both attracted to
• 36:08
  emotional health because their nervous systems recognized it as safe.
• 36:12
  The research on secure attachment, it continually shows that securely attached
• 36:17
  people tend to partner with other securely attached individuals at rates
• 36:21
  far higher than chance would predict.
• 36:23
  There's some research by Cindy Hazen and Philip Schafer, and they found
• 36:25
  that secure individuals are more likely to recognize and be attracted
• 36:28
  to security than over chaos or drama.
• 36:31
  Why?
• 36:32
  'cause their nervous systems have been wired to recognize emotional
• 36:34
  availability, consistency, and a big one that I hear in my office.
• 36:38
  People want reciprocity.
• 36:40
  And so in a healthy, secure relationship that is there, it is available.
• 36:44
  If you don't have that in your relationship now, go get help.
• 36:48
  Not trying to do an ad, but if you, if you like my content, reach
• 36:52
  out, contact@tonyoverbay.com.
• 36:53
  Tell me your story from time to time.
• 36:55
  I have room to work with couples, but these things like emotional availability,
• 36:59
  consistency, reciprocity, those become indicators of safe relationships.
• 37:03
  They're not seeking intensity or drama because their nervous systems
• 37:06
  don't confuse anxiety with attraction.
• 37:09
  So when Jill had a stressful week a month or two into dating Jack, she told
• 37:13
  him straightforward, I'm wiped out.
• 37:15
  Are you cool if we did something really low key this weekend,
• 37:18
  instead of going to that concert?
• 37:19
  And Jack said, oh yeah, of course.
• 37:22
  What sounds good to you?
• 37:23
  He didn't say, oh man, I already paid for it.
• 37:26
  I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
• 37:28
  I know you said you're uncomfortable, but that isn't good for me.
• 37:31
  So can you bring all that discomfort with you and come with me so I can be happy?
• 37:35
  No.
• 37:36
  He said, do you wanna just order food?
• 37:37
  Watch a movie at my place.
• 37:39
  He said, that sounds perfect.
• 37:40
  No guilt from Jack, no anxiety from Jill that she would disappoint
• 37:42
  him, just flexibility and care.
• 37:46
  And they spent the evening running a, a brush through Jack's unicorn's hair.
• 37:50
  Now, when Jack needed to focus on a major project deadline, six weeks
• 37:54
  into the relationship, he texted Jill, Hey, I'm gonna be pretty
• 37:57
  heads down with work this week.
• 37:58
  Can we plan something for next Friday?
• 38:00
  I so miss you, but I really need to get through this crunch time.
• 38:03
  Jill is able to actually be disappointed.
• 38:05
  Oh, man, I'm bummed, but that's a human emotion, but no problem.
• 38:09
  Hey, good luck with the project.
• 38:10
  Let me know if you need me to drop anything off, or can I
• 38:12
  give you some encouraging texts?
• 38:14
  So Gil did not interpret his need for space as rejection.
• 38:18
  Her nervous system didn't activate into panic about abandonment.
• 38:22
  She didn't have to continually question his message, and she was
• 38:26
  able to take him for his word.
• 38:28
  She recognized it for what it was.
• 38:29
  It's a temporary boundary based on a certain set of external circumstances,
• 38:33
  not a statement about the relationship.
• 38:35
  There's some research from a variety of attachment theorists that says
• 38:38
  securely attached individuals show several key characteristics in dating.
• 38:42
  They can express needs directly without anxiety or defensiveness, and
• 38:46
  they respond to their partner's needs without feeling threatened or burdened.
• 38:49
  They maintain their sense of self while being emotionally available,
• 38:52
  and they interpret behavior through a lens of trust rather than than threat.
• 38:56
  And I just, I want people to be aware that this is a thing, and if
• 38:59
  you aren't this thing currently, it doesn't mean that you can't be.
• 39:04
  It doesn't mean that you can't become.
• 39:06
  I just want you to recognize why these things are happening in your
• 39:10
  own central nervous system and in this dance of emotions with your
• 39:14
  partner, because learning is the first step on your path to growth.
• 39:19
  Jack and Jill were doing these things naturally without conscious effort
• 39:23
  because their childhoods had wired for it.
• 39:24
  There's a guy named Stan Takin, and he has a thing called a packed framework,
• 39:29
  and he suggests that secure individuals unconsciously screen for other secure
• 39:33
  individuals because their nervous systems can distinguish between familiar
• 39:37
  and safe versus familiar unsafe.
• 39:40
  So Jack's calm presence didn't trigger Jill's anxiety.
• 39:43
  It felt genuinely peaceful.
• 39:45
  Jill's warmth didn't trigger Jack's fear of being suffocated.
• 39:48
  It felt genuinely caring.
• 39:50
  This is very distinct from the typical anxious avoidant pairing
• 39:54
  or the anxious avoidant loop where calm distance triggers pursuit and
• 39:58
  emotional intensity triggers withdrawal.
• 40:00
  Jack and Jill weren't triggering each other's defense systems.
• 40:03
  They were meeting each other in a regulated middle ground.
• 40:06
  So after a few months of dating, they had their first real disagreement.
• 40:09
  Jill wanted to spend Thanksgiving with her family, and Jack had
• 40:11
  assumed they would spend it with his, but they had not discussed it.
• 40:15
  So they both felt surprised by the other's expectation, but they also realized,
• 40:18
  I guess we never talked about this.
• 40:20
  So Jill brings it up.
• 40:21
  I think we assume different things about Thanksgiving.
• 40:23
  Are you cool if we talk about what we each want?
• 40:25
  And Jack admitted he felt a flash of defensiveness, but that was his cue
• 40:30
  to be able to ground himself, pause and then jump into this conversation.
• 40:36
  He thought, why does this have to be this complicated?
• 40:38
  But then he recognized the feeling and he took a breath.
• 40:41
  That's a me thing.
• 40:42
  So he said, that is a great idea.
• 40:44
  Honestly, I was hoping you would come with me 'cause I just wanna
• 40:46
  show you off to everybody, but I realize we never talked about it.
• 40:49
  And she said.
• 40:50
  Same.
• 40:51
  I was planning to go to my parents' place and I thought that it would be
• 40:54
  fun to take you there, but I would actually love to meet your family.
• 40:57
  Maybe, we could do one at Thanksgiving and one at Christmas, and they
• 41:00
  talked through the options.
• 41:01
  Jack admitted feeling a little disappointed again.
• 41:03
  That's okay.
• 41:04
  Jill acknowledged the same.
• 41:05
  She was too, but neither made it mean something catastrophic
• 41:08
  about the relationship, and so they landed on a compromise.
• 41:11
  Thanksgiving with Jack's family.
• 41:12
  Christmas with Jill's.
• 41:14
  This is our first real negotiation, Jack said with a small smile.
• 41:17
  I think we did okay.
• 41:19
  What allowed this?
• 41:20
  Their nervous systems weren't interpreting conflict as danger.
• 41:23
  Disagreement didn't mean abandonment or attack, it just meant that they
• 41:26
  needed to understand each other and then they could find solutions together.
• 41:30
  Sue Johnson, the founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy, EFT, has research
• 41:34
  that shows that secure couples can move through conflict while maintaining
• 41:38
  connection because that attachment bond provides safety even during disagreement.
• 41:43
  Jack and Jill got engaged after a couple of years of dating, and the proposal was
• 41:46
  thoughtful, but it wasn't performative.
• 41:48
  They had talked about marriage openly for months, so it kind of wasn't a surprise.
• 41:51
  They both wanted it.
• 41:52
  They both felt ready.
• 41:53
  When Jack proposed during a weekend hiking trip, Jill said yes.
• 41:55
  Tears in her eyes, not because it was a surprise, but because it just felt right.
• 41:59
  They weren't operating from this unconscious hope of healing
• 42:02
  childhood wounds through, through their reunion, their partnership.
• 42:05
  They were choosing each other from a place of wholeness, not from a place of need.
• 42:09
  It is not.
• 42:10
  We are two halves and we become one.
• 42:12
  We are two complete individuals, and we can become even better as we
• 42:18
  have shared experiences with people that we feel a connection with.
• 42:21
  Fast forward, Jack and Jill, they've been married a few years.
• 42:24
  Their life is not perfect.
• 42:25
  They have stress.
• 42:26
  They have hard days.
• 42:27
  They have moments of misunderstanding.
• 42:28
  Everyone does, but the relationship feels like a resource, not a liability.
• 42:33
  That's the key.
• 42:34
  I have another human I can interact with to process emotion.
• 42:38
  When your nervous system can become wired for safety and connection and not
• 42:44
  spending your time defending yourself or trying to attack or withdraw,
• 42:48
  then you want to go to this person.
• 42:50
  'cause they're a resource, not a liability.
• 42:53
  This is somebody, this is your person.
• 42:54
  We're gonna bounce ideas off of each other and I'm not gonna feel criticized or I'm
• 42:58
  not gonna be made to feel like a buffoon for having my own thoughts and opinions.
• 43:01
  So then it's a Saturday afternoon and they navigate something that could have
• 43:05
  easily become a big conflict because it's one of, one of my top five hard things.
• 43:09
  It is.
• 43:09
  You got intimacy, parenting, finances, religion, politics.
• 43:14
  Joe comes home from a mechanic with the news, if you remember part one at all.
• 43:19
  We're gonna do a similar scenario, but the good version, Jill comes
• 43:22
  home from a mechanic with news.
• 43:24
  Their car needs $2,000, unexpected repairs, and she feels stressed rising.
• 43:28
  They have the money, but it wasn't planned, and it means they're
• 43:31
  gonna have to delay some other things that they had hoped to do.
• 43:33
  She finds Jack in the kitchen and she wants to talk to him,
• 43:36
  but she also feels uncomfortable.
• 43:39
  That's perfectly normal.
• 43:41
  So she takes a breath.
• 43:41
  Hey, the mechanic called and the car needs $2,000 in work, and
• 43:45
  it's so much more than I thought.
• 43:48
  Jack looks up from his laptop and he notices Jill's face.
• 43:50
  She looks stressed, not panicked, and he feels his own stress
• 43:54
  response, and it's there.
• 43:55
  He notices it, it could activate.
• 43:57
  His first thought was, okay, we just paid for a brand new fence, and now this, but
• 44:01
  he catches that before it takes over.
• 44:04
  Okay, so Jack says, okay, closes his laptop.
• 44:07
  Man, that is frustrating.
• 44:09
  I so appreciate what you're saying.
• 44:11
  Like that is, yeah.
• 44:12
  We don't really have this budgeted, do we?
• 44:14
  What'd they find?
• 44:14
  Jill explains the issue as she talks.
• 44:16
  Jack can feel her tension and he doesn't try to fix it immediately or dismiss it.
• 44:21
  He listens.
• 44:21
  He maintains eye contact.
• 44:23
  He stays present.
• 44:24
  He actually rises to the challenge.
• 44:26
  This is one of those things that we don't know, that we
• 44:28
  don't know until you get there.
• 44:30
  When this is the air you breathe, you want to provide that container, that
• 44:35
  safe space for your partner's emotions, and it feels somewhat invigorating.
• 44:40
  I want to be this person that can make space for them to help them feel safe.
• 44:44
  So when she finishes talk and he says That is a lot that you had to carry with you to
• 44:49
  bring home, I can see why you're stressed.
• 44:52
  Thank you so much.
• 44:53
  Jill Exhales, something in her body just releases.
• 44:57
  She's been worried that Jack would be frustrated with her for
• 44:59
  not catching the problem earlier or that he minimized her stress.
• 45:02
  Instead, he's just there.
• 45:05
  He says, we'll figure it out.
• 45:06
  You know, we will.
• 45:08
  It might mean pushing back the deck furniture.
• 45:10
  It might mean postponing a vacation a little bit, but we'll figure it out.
• 45:14
  Let's talk about it later.
• 45:15
  And he doesn't mean kick the can down the road.
• 45:17
  He just said, why don't we, why don't we just go grab a bite to eat together?
• 45:21
  Let's connect.
• 45:22
  Let's get right back into this, our bodies, our relationships,
• 45:25
  and then we will get back to these emotional things later.
• 45:28
  She said that would be amazing, and she pauses and says, Hey, I'm so
• 45:31
  sorry I didn't catch this earlier.
• 45:33
  I feel like I should have noticed something was off with the car.
• 45:35
  And Jack shakes his head, Hey, you're not a mechanic.
• 45:38
  These things happen.
• 45:39
  Let's just deal with what's in front of us.
• 45:41
  Things are gonna happen.
• 45:42
  We're gonna figure 'em out.
• 45:43
  That's co-regulation in action.
• 45:45
  He wasn't even doing it because he needed something or wanted something
• 45:48
  from her, and she didn't even anticipate.
• 45:51
  That later wasn't like, okay, now what do I have to do?
• 45:55
  Jill came home stressed.
• 45:56
  Jack's calm.
• 45:57
  He was grounded.
• 45:58
  He had a grounded response, helped her nervous system settle.
• 46:01
  He didn't take on her stress, he didn't dismiss it, he acknowledged it and
• 46:05
  offered a partnership in solving it.
• 46:07
  After lunch, they sit down with the laptop and budget and a spreadsheet and numbers
• 46:11
  and math and finances and all those things that I'm not very comfortable with.
• 46:14
  And Jack pulls up the accounts.
• 46:16
  Jill makes T for both of 'em.
• 46:17
  Okay, Jack says, scanning the numbers.
• 46:19
  Let's dip into the emergency fund.
• 46:20
  All in favor say aye.
• 46:22
  That's, and Jill says, I hate that we have to do that.
• 46:25
  And he said I mean technically this is an emergency and we don't want
• 46:28
  to put this on a credit card, so I think this is what we need to do.
• 46:30
  Jill says, ah, the emergency fund is getting low, makes me nervous.
• 46:34
  And Jack said, oh man, that makes sense.
• 46:36
  He acknowledges, he doesn't tell her she's worrying too much, she's being irrational.
• 46:39
  Or, , how do you think that makes me feel?
• 46:40
  Her feeling is information.
• 46:41
  It's not a problem to solve.
• 46:43
  He said, what would help you feel more comfortable?
• 46:45
  And she said, maybe if we could build it back up over the next couple of months
• 46:48
  and we could even postpone some of the other things for even a few more months.
• 46:51
  Jack considers this, his initial reaction is resistance.
• 46:54
  'cause he really is looking forward to this one particular trip.
• 46:57
  He had been allocating it there already, but he recognizes Jill's need for
• 47:00
  financial security and safety is more important than him going to the Poconos.
• 47:05
  I really don't even know where those things are, but security's valid
• 47:10
  and her suggestion is reasonable.
• 47:11
  And he says, let's do it, and I'm happy to wait on some of these other things.
• 47:15
  Are you sure?
• 47:16
  Jill says, I don't want you to feel like you can't have the things you want.
• 47:18
  He's like, oh, yeah, no, I, I really am.
• 47:20
  And I appreciate, yes, that really matters.
• 47:22
  They finalize a plan, pay for the car, repair for the emergency
• 47:25
  fund, rebuild it, assess their savings goal, buy a second unicorn.
• 47:28
  The whole conversation doesn't take that long.
• 47:31
  Nobody's voice was raised.
• 47:31
  Nobody shuts down.
• 47:32
  Nobody walks away.
• 47:34
  So what happened there, if we go back to from a neuroscience
• 47:37
  perspective, is what Dan Siegel describes as healthy co-regulation.
• 47:40
  When Jill's nervous system was activated by stress,
• 47:42
  . Jack's regulated nervous system provided a stabilizing reference point.
• 47:47
  His calm presence didn't mean dismissing her concern.
• 47:50
  It meant creating enough safety that she could think clearly about solutions
• 47:54
  instead of spiraling into panic.
• 47:55
  And crucially, this regulation flows both ways.
• 47:58
  Two weeks later, Jack comes home from work and he's frustrated and his manager
• 48:01
  gave him feedback on a project that wasn't very cool and Jack had worked hard on it.
• 48:05
  And while the feedback was somewhat valid, it stung.
• 48:09
  And there's several things that attachment research identifies that
• 48:12
  is crucial for secure relationships.
• 48:15
  First, they could repair after conflict.
• 48:17
  Research from John Gottman shows that successful couples are not conflict
• 48:21
  free, they're skilled at repair.
• 48:23
  Jack could name that they were too activated at one point and suggest a
• 48:27
  break without it being abandonment.
• 48:28
  And Jill could trust that.
• 48:29
  Let's take a break meant we're pausing and we will get back to it.
• 48:32
  Not I'm leaving this conversation forever.
• 48:34
  Second, they could take responsibility for their own parts.
• 48:37
  Neither stayed defensive, both could apologize for their
• 48:39
  contributions to the escalation.
• 48:41
  There's research from Harriet Lerner that shows that a genuine apology and then
• 48:45
  taking ownership and accountability are foundational to healthy relationships.
• 48:49
  And then third, they could help hold multiple truths simultaneously.
• 48:52
  This is so important.
• 48:54
  Jack's concern about finances was valid.
• 48:56
  Jill's desire in another situation to help out her mom is valid.
• 48:59
  They didn't have to make one person wrong and make the other person right.
• 49:03
  This is what, Siegel talks about when he talks about integration in relationships,
• 49:06
  the ability to honor differentiation.
• 49:08
  We're separate people, but we do have different perspectives while
• 49:11
  maintaining connection linkage, we're committed to finding solutions
• 49:14
  together over years of marriage.
• 49:17
  What Jack and Jill have built is a secure functioning relationship.
• 49:21
  They become each other's primary go-to person for co-regulation.
• 49:24
  They're not looking for it outside of the relat.
• 49:27
  When one person's stressed, the other's nervous system helps
• 49:29
  bring 'em back to baseline.
• 49:30
  And when one person is struggling, the other provides support without
• 49:33
  fixing or dismissing, it leads to a less dramatic relationship.
• 49:38
  There's no intense pursuing or intense withdrawing.
• 49:41
  There's no walking on eggshells or explosive fights.
• 49:43
  It's not boring.
• 49:44
  They laugh together.
• 49:45
  They enjoy each other's company.
• 49:47
  They have a solid sex life.
• 49:49
  They share adventures.
• 49:50
  It's not chaotic.
• 49:51
  It's steady and steady to their nervous systems.
• 49:53
  Is safe research shows that secure relationships have several key
• 49:58
  consistent characteristics that they both embodied emotional availability.
• 50:02
  Both partners can be present with each other's feelings without
• 50:04
  becoming overwhelmed or dismissive.
• 50:06
  They have effective communication.
• 50:08
  They can express needs and concerns and feelings directly, and there's minimal
• 50:11
  guessing or mind reading required.
• 50:13
  When Jill needs more quality time together, she says, so when
• 50:15
  Jack feels overwhelmed by social commitments, he says, so conflict
• 50:18
  resolution skills come next.
• 50:20
  That means they can disagree sometimes even with some big emotions
• 50:23
  and move through it to repair.
• 50:25
  Conflict doesn't threaten the foundation of the relationship
• 50:27
  according to John Gottman's research on successful marriages.
• 50:30
  It's not the absence of conflict, but it's the presence of effective repair
• 50:33
  that predicts relationship satisfaction.
• 50:35
  They had mutual support.
• 50:36
  They celebrate each other's successes, and they support each other's struggles.
• 50:39
  One person's success does not mean that the other person is doing anything wrong.
• 50:43
  When Jill gets a promotion, Jack is genuinely happy for her.
• 50:45
  He's not threatened.
• 50:46
  When Jack's father becomes ill, Jill makes space for his grief
• 50:49
  without making it about her.
• 50:50
  And that allows them also to maintain individuality because
• 50:54
  they can have separate friendships, separate interests, even separate
• 50:57
  time when they wanna take it.
• 50:59
  Jill has a standing monthly dinner with her college friends.
• 51:02
  Jack plays in a rec basketball league, and neither feels threatened
• 51:04
  by the other's independence.
• 51:05
  They actually know that it's good for the other person.
• 51:08
  And then they have physical and emotional intimacy.
• 51:10
  They maintain physical affection and sexual connection, but more importantly,
• 51:13
  they maintain emotional intimacy.
• 51:15
  It's this ability to be vulnerable and to truly be seen and to
• 51:18
  share their inner worlds.
• 51:20
  And they have trust and reliability.
• 51:22
  They do what they say they'll do.
• 51:24
  They acknowledge that these are things I can't do.
• 51:26
  They show up consistently, and that allows both of their central nervous systems
• 51:29
  to relax into the relationship instead of, of staying perpetually vigilant.
• 51:33
  From a, from an interpersonal neurobiological perspective,
• 51:36
  that's a mouthful.
• 51:37
  They're literally shaping each other's brains through their
• 51:41
  consistent, attuned interactions.
• 51:42
  Siegel's research shows that repeated experiences of secure connection
• 51:46
  create neural pathways that reinforce that capacity for connection.
• 51:51
  The more you do it, the more you do it each time.
• 51:53
  Jack responds to Jill with presence instead of withdraw.
• 51:56
  Her brain gets evidence that connections safe.
• 51:58
  Each time.
• 51:58
  Jill gives Jack space without pursuing anxiously.
• 52:00
  His brain gets evidence that autonomy doesn't mean abandonment.
• 52:03
  So over time, even the ways they might have been slightly less secure when they
• 52:07
  met now have shifted towards security.
• 52:10
  So Jill has become even more confident in her ability to handle distress
• 52:12
  independently because of Jack's consistent availability that's
• 52:15
  taught her nervous system that.
• 52:17
  Support if I need it, is reliably there.
• 52:20
  And Jack's become even more comfortable with emotional closeness because Jill's
• 52:23
  respect for his boundaries has taught him and his nervous system that intimacy
• 52:26
  does not mean he's gonna lose himself.
• 52:28
  This is neuroplasticity.
• 52:30
  This is the brain changing
• 52:31
  the fixed brain mindset , , is not a thing your brain can continue to learn.
• 52:36
  You can teach an old dog new tricks.
• 52:38
  Their secure relationship is literally changing the neural
• 52:42
  architecture in their brains.
• 52:43
  So episode one, episode two, the critical question.
• 52:46
  What made the difference?
• 52:47
  Why did one version of Jack and Jill end up in a painful pursuit withdrawal
• 52:50
  cycle, and the other version built a secure, satisfying relationship?
• 52:55
  The answer lies in childhoods in these thousands of small interactions that wired
• 52:58
  their nervous systems for either security or inconsistency in healthy relationships.
• 53:03
  Jack and Jill's parents consistently provided what attachment theorists call
• 53:07
  a safe haven, a secure base, and when they were distressed, their parents
• 53:10
  were readily available to help them.
• 53:12
  A safe haven.
• 53:13
  When they wanted to explore or take risks, their parents supported their
• 53:16
  autonomy while remaining available if needed, a secure base, a home base
• 53:20
  they could operate from, and they can go out and explore the world.
• 53:23
  The consistency is crucial.
• 53:25
  Mary Ainsworth, who is the one that developed the strange
• 53:28
  Situation Assessment of Attachment.
• 53:29
  They did an episode on this quite a while ago that led to the concepts
• 53:32
  around secure and avoidant and anxious.
• 53:35
  She said, it's not perfection that creates secure attachment, it's reliability.
• 53:39
  Parents don't have to be perfectly attuned all the time.
• 53:41
  They don't have to know everything.
• 53:42
  They don't have to always get it right.
• 53:44
  They need to be good enough most of the time and be willing to work on
• 53:49
  things, acknowledge things, be able to repair when they miss the mark.
• 53:53
  Healthy.
• 53:53
  Jill's mom wasn't always immediately available, but
• 53:55
  she was predictably available.
• 53:57
  Healthy Jack's father sometimes got frustrated, but he came
• 54:00
  back to repair with consistency.
• 54:02
  This teaches the nervous system.
• 54:04
  People are not perfect, but they're trustworthy.
• 54:06
  Connection might have bumps, but it doesn't break.
• 54:09
  If you look back at the unhealthy versions, the unhealthy Jill's mom
• 54:13
  was inconsistent a lot of times, absent, sometimes engulfing,
• 54:16
  rarely attuned unhealthy.
• 54:18
  Jack's dad was consistently critical and his mom was consistently unavailable.
• 54:22
  Their nervous systems learn.
• 54:23
  I cannot predict what I'll get from connection.
• 54:25
  I gotta protect myself.
• 54:27
  John Bowlby, who found Attachment Theory, describes these internal working models,
• 54:32
  mental representations that we build about ourselves and others, and relationships
• 54:36
  based on these early experiences.
• 54:39
  These models operate largely outside of our conscious awareness.
• 54:42
  That's the thing is that this is why we do the things we do, because we do them.
• 54:46
  When somebody in a relationship says, why'd you do that?
• 54:48
  My number one go-to answer is, well, I'll answer because they did.
• 54:51
  But . Maybe we can take a look at.
• 54:52
  Well, why?
• 54:53
  Because it's just the way they did it.
• 54:55
  It's the reaction that they're having to that moment in life.
• 54:59
  But let's talk about it.
• 55:00
  ' cause these things that happen outside of our conscious awareness, they
• 55:03
  profoundly influence how we interpret and respond to the relationship
• 55:07
  experiences throughout our life.
• 55:09
  We have to recognize them and acknowledge them before we can then
• 55:14
  know even what to do moving forward.
• 55:16
  What change looks like.
• 55:18
  Healthy Jill's internal working model, I am worthy of love.
• 55:21
  Others are , generally reliable and responsive.
• 55:23
  Relationships are a, a source of support.
• 55:25
  It does not mean that then she's gonna go find a unhealthy relationship
• 55:29
  because she's whimsical and naive.
• 55:31
  Her nervous system is going to make sure that if someone is manipulative,
• 55:34
  controlling, or inconsistent, that, that something feels off in healthy
• 55:38
  Jack's internal working model.
• 55:40
  I'm capable and valued.
• 55:41
  Others can be trusted with my vulnerability.
• 55:43
  Relationships are safe and mutually beneficial.
• 55:45
  Unhealthy, Jill's internal working model.
• 55:47
  I am too much or I'm not enough, depending on the context on the moment.
• 55:51
  Other people, unpredictable, they might leave.
• 55:53
  Relationships require constant hypervigilance and performing an
• 55:57
  effort and giving up of myself in order to maintain unhealthy
• 56:00
  jack's internal working model.
• 56:02
  I am inadequate unless I'm self-sufficient.
• 56:04
  I can't count on anybody.
• 56:06
  Others are overwhelming or they're very critical.
• 56:09
  So relationships are actually threatening to my autonomy and my wellbeing, but
• 56:12
  apparently I'm supposed to be in one.
• 56:14
  These work in models become self-fulfilling prophecies unhealthy.
• 56:17
  Jill expecting abandonment pursues intensely, which triggers unhealthy
• 56:20
  Jack's fear of engulfment, which causes him to withdraw, which
• 56:23
  confirms Jill's fear of abandonment.
• 56:25
  Healthy.
• 56:25
  Jill expecting responsiveness asks for what she needs directly,
• 56:29
  which healthy Jack can meet, which confirms Jill's expectation that
• 56:32
  relationships are cooperative.
• 56:34
  , There's a term that's been floating around quite a while, and I think
• 56:37
  I would predict this is one that is gonna become the hot new term.
• 56:41
  Let's talk about polyvagal theory.
• 56:43
  This is one of those things that I would just nod.
• 56:44
  Oh yeah, polyvagal.
• 56:46
  I think I saw those guys play back in the nineties.
• 56:49
  That's not what it is.
• 56:50
  Polyvagal theory provides another lens for understanding these differences.
• 56:52
  The vagus nerve, not like Las Vegas.
• 56:55
  V-A-G-U-S has two main branches.
• 56:58
  There's this ventral vagal, which is associated with social engagement,
• 57:01
  with safety and connection, and then there's this dorsal vagal
• 57:05
  that's associated with shutdown and immobilization and disconnection.
• 57:08
  So healthy.
• 57:09
  Jill and Jack, they had childhoods that predominantly activated
• 57:12
  this ventral vagal system.
• 57:13
  They learned that social engagement brings safety.
• 57:15
  Their nervous systems develop flexibility.
• 57:17
  They could activate when needed for challenges, but they could also
• 57:19
  return to calm connected states.
• 57:21
  Unhealthy.
• 57:22
  Jill's nervous system learned to stay in this sympathetic activation,
• 57:25
  fight or flight manifesting as this anxious pursuing because connection
• 57:28
  was unpredictable, unhealthy Jack's nervous system learned to shift
• 57:32
  into this dorsal vagal shutdown freeze manifest as withdrawal
• 57:35
  because engagement felt dangerous.
• 57:37
  So according to this polyvagal theory, we unconsciously read safety and danger
• 57:41
  cues from others through neuroception.
• 57:43
  I think that was a Leonardo DiCaprio movie.
• 57:45
  But Neuroception is a subconscious detection system, healthy Jill
• 57:49
  and Jackson, and receive cues of safety from each other.
• 57:52
  Unhealthy.
• 57:52
  Jill and Jackson send and receive cues of threat from each other, even when
• 57:56
  they're consciously trying to connect.
• 57:58
  So you've got this intergenerational transmission of attachment.
• 58:01
  There's Research by Mary Maine and a few others that show that attachment patterns
• 58:06
  tend to transmit across generations.
• 58:07
  But that doesn't mean it's your destiny.
• 58:10
  The key factor isn't whether parents had secure childhoods themselves,
• 58:13
  but whether they've developed what main calls earned security.
• 58:16
  That's the ability to coherently understand their own attachment history,
• 58:19
  which is what we're trying to do here, and then how it affects 'em healthy.
• 58:23
  Jill's parents likely had secure attachments themselves
• 58:25
  or they'd done work.
• 58:26
  That's the key to, to heal from insecure attachments and develop security.
• 58:30
  Unhealthy Jill's parents were likely still operating from their
• 58:32
  own unhealed attachment wounds.
• 58:34
  Her mom's anxiety might have stemmed from her own childhood
• 58:36
  neglect, and it creates a cycle.
• 58:38
  Somebody we've gotta break the cycle.
• 58:40
  The same applies to Jack's parents.
• 58:42
  The good news from research attachment patterns can change, but it takes therapy,
• 58:47
  introspection work, conscious self-work, corrective relationship experiences,
• 58:52
  uncomfortable things people can move from insecure to secure attachment.
• 58:55
  This is called earned secure attachment.
• 58:57
  There's research on, it's a little nerdy.
• 58:59
  Restorative mating, partner selection and attachment, and it shows patterns.
• 59:04
  People tend to partner with others at similar levels of attachment,
• 59:06
  security, or levels of differentiation or complimentary insecurities.
• 59:10
  So anxious and avoidant individuals, they're drawn to each other because
• 59:14
  there's this initial misinterpretation.
• 59:16
  The anxious person sees the avoidant person's distance as mystery fascination.
• 59:20
  Someone I can connect with a k, a fix or independence rather
• 59:24
  than actually unavailability.
• 59:25
  And then the avoidant person sees the anxious person's attention
• 59:27
  as admiration or warmth rather than anxiety driven pursuit.
• 59:32
  So this creates this unconscious familiarity.
• 59:35
  Both nervous systems recognize the dynamic.
• 59:37
  This feels familiar, even if it's painful, unhealthy, Jill's nervous system
• 59:41
  recognized Jack's emotional distance.
• 59:42
  It was her mom's unavailability and her dad's absence that felt like
• 59:45
  home even though it wasn't safe.
• 59:47
  So there is hope.
• 59:49
  Harville Hendricks, the guy who founded Imago Theory suggests we
• 59:52
  unconsciously choose partners who can recreate our childhood wounds
• 59:55
  because we're trying to heal him.
• 59:57
  That is deep.
• 59:58
  That is our nervous system is trying unhealthy.
• 1:00:01
  Jill unconsciously hoped if I can get Jack to stay present and engaged, I'll finally
• 1:00:05
  heal the wound of my mom's inconsistency.
• 1:00:08
  Unhealthy.
• 1:00:08
  Jack unconsciously hopes if I can be with Jill without being
• 1:00:12
  overwhelmed, I will finally heal the wound of my dad's criticism.
• 1:00:15
  But then let's, let's we're in the relationship and good old
• 1:00:18
  confirmation bias comes knocking.
• 1:00:20
  Once in the relationship, each person's behavior now confirms
• 1:00:22
  the other's core beliefs.
• 1:00:23
  Jill's pursuing confirms Jack's belief that actually people want too much.
• 1:00:28
  I know this story.
• 1:00:29
  And then he withdraws and Jack's withdraw confirms Jill's
• 1:00:31
  belief that aha, it is true.
• 1:00:33
  People always leave, but secure individuals are drawn toward
• 1:00:36
  each other because they have this accurate perception.
• 1:00:38
  Healthy Jill correctly perceive Jack's calm as calm, as genuine
• 1:00:41
  security, not avoidance healthy.
• 1:00:43
  Jack correctly perceive Jill's warmth as genuine care, not anxiety driven pursuit.
• 1:00:47
  And if you're wondering, okay, but if I'm, if I think I am secure,
• 1:00:50
  but why am in a insecure pairing?
• 1:00:53
  The research actually shows that secure, insecure pairings are very rare.
• 1:00:57
  When a secure person dates an insecure person, the mismatch
• 1:00:59
  usually becomes pretty apparent.
• 1:01:02
  There's research by a guy named Jeffrey Simpson, and he says that
• 1:01:05
  with secure individuals, they detect insecure partners faster because
• 1:01:08
  they have clear internal reference points for what healthy connection
• 1:01:11
  feels like, and they're less likely.
• 1:01:13
  This is key to make excuses for problematic behavior, and they
• 1:01:16
  exit relationships earlier.
• 1:01:18
  When they consistently feel dysregulated, they don't interpret pursuing or
• 1:01:22
  withdrawing as passion or mystery.
• 1:01:24
  They recognize it as this is insecurity and I can't fix it.
• 1:01:28
  I know I can't.
• 1:01:29
  And meanwhile, insecure individuals often then feel really uncomfortable
• 1:01:32
  with the steadiness that secure people offer because it doesn't
• 1:01:35
  activate their familiar patterns.
• 1:01:37
  So they'll misinterpret behavior as boring to available or lacking chemistry
• 1:01:41
  because it is so unfamiliar, they unconsciously create drama or they
• 1:01:45
  test to recreate familiar dynamics, and then they struggle to trust the
• 1:01:49
  consistency because it's unfamiliar.
• 1:01:50
  What's this guy's angle with?
• 1:01:52
  With him continually saying he wants to hang out, spend time with me,
• 1:01:55
  and he's willing to gimme space?
• 1:01:56
  What's he up to?
• 1:01:57
  If a secure person stays with an insecure person long enough?
• 1:02:00
  Research shows that there are two possible outcomes.
• 1:02:02
  The insecure person begins to move towards security if they're open to it.
• 1:02:05
  Secure person maintains healthy boundaries.
• 1:02:07
  The secure person begins to move toward insecurity if they sacrifice
• 1:02:10
  their boundaries and they become enmeshed in the insecure dynamics.
• 1:02:14
  But most of the time, these pairings end before either transformation
• 1:02:18
  occurs because the secure person recognizes their relationship isn't
• 1:02:21
  meeting their needs and they exit.
• 1:02:22
  So this story does not have to end with unhealthy Jack and Jill
• 1:02:25
  trapped in their pattern attachment.
• 1:02:26
  Research offers hope people can change.
• 1:02:29
  Mary Main's research on earned security shows that adults who had insecure
• 1:02:32
  childhoods can develop secure attachments through therapeutic relationships.
• 1:02:36
  A consistent attuned therapist can provide the co-regulation
• 1:02:39
  that was missing in childhood.
• 1:02:40
  That's.
• 1:02:41
  Part of, there's so many benefits to therapy.
• 1:02:43
  I have to say that when somebody is expressing their emotions and getting the
• 1:02:46
  scary things outta their head, or the RU or the loops or the ruminations to someone
• 1:02:50
  that is not saying, well, I wouldn't have done that, or, why'd you do that?
• 1:02:52
  Or, well, here's what I would do, or, that seems like you could've done that better.
• 1:02:56
  No, it's like, tell me more.
• 1:02:58
  Help me understand.
• 1:02:58
  You are calming that person's anxiety as they express things to somebody
• 1:03:03
  that is safe and helps you co-regulate what was missing in childhood.
• 1:03:07
  Over time therapy clients can internalize the therapist's steadiness and they
• 1:03:11
  can develop their own capacity for self-regulation and healthy relationships.
• 1:03:15
  Also, we need to find friendships that are safe and steady and secure.
• 1:03:20
  Friendships, mentors, romantic partners who model secure attachment
• 1:03:24
  can help rewire insecure patterns.
• 1:03:26
  That's why some people with insecure childhoods develop security through
• 1:03:29
  a long-term secure partnership, but they have to be open to that
• 1:03:32
  experience and aware, self-reflection and integration becomes key.
• 1:03:36
  It's important to develop what Dan Siegel calls mine site, the ability to observe
• 1:03:40
  and understand your own mental processes that'll help you recognize your patterns
• 1:03:43
  and help you make conscious choices and get you out of operating on autopilot.
• 1:03:48
  And then Mary Mains research emphasizes this importance of developing
• 1:03:52
  a coherent narrative about your childhood and how it affected you.
• 1:03:55
  When a therapist says, let's talk about your childhood, it's not
• 1:03:58
  about having a perfect childhood.
• 1:04:00
  It's about being able to talk about your childhood with clarity and acknowledge
• 1:04:04
  both positive and negative aspects without minimizing, glorifying, making
• 1:04:08
  excuses for becoming overwhelmed.
• 1:04:10
  That's one of the biggest takeaways I hope you'll get from today, is
• 1:04:13
  that as you can talk about things and with someone that can co-regulate
• 1:04:17
  and it feels calm, it's slowly
• 1:04:20
  , rewiring your own central nervous system.
• 1:04:22
  That's part of what helps you become okay because you realize that I can talk about
• 1:04:26
  these difficult things with someone, maybe borrow their regulation system for a while
• 1:04:31
  and I can then integrate it into mine.
• 1:04:32
  So imagine unhealthy Jack and Jill after years of this pursue withdrawal
• 1:04:35
  cycle, and they hit a crisis point.
• 1:04:37
  Maybe one of 'em threatens divorce.
• 1:04:38
  Maybe they sit in couple's therapy sessions for an extended amount of
• 1:04:41
  time and the therapist helps 'em see the pattern for the first time.
• 1:04:45
  The therapist might help 'em understand this isn't about who's right and wrong.
• 1:04:48
  They're each operating from these old nervous system wirings.
• 1:04:52
  They're not fundamentally incompatible.
• 1:04:53
  They're stuck in a dance.
• 1:04:54
  Their childhood's taught 'em, and you can learn new steps to the dance,
• 1:04:58
  but it requires both people to be willing to look at their own patterns.
• 1:05:01
  If Jill does her work, she might learn to notice when her anxiety about
• 1:05:04
  abandonment is driving her behavior.
• 1:05:06
  Self-soothe.
• 1:05:06
  When Jack needs space, rather than immediately pursue communicator needs
• 1:05:11
  directly, rather than test whether Jack will notice these covert contracts.
• 1:05:15
  Build other sources of co-regulation, friends, therapy, somatic exercises,
• 1:05:18
  breathing, yoga, exercise.
• 1:05:21
  Recognize that her worth isn't determined by Jack's emotional
• 1:05:23
  availability in any given moment.
• 1:05:25
  And if Jack does his work, he might learn to notice when his shutdown is a
• 1:05:28
  defense mechanism instead of a genuine need for space, he can learn to stay
• 1:05:32
  present with Jill's emotions without seeing them as overwhelming or threatening
• 1:05:36
  and communicate when he needs space in ways that reassure rather than abandon.
• 1:05:40
  I need an hour to process, but I want to come back and talk and follow through on
• 1:05:43
  it and recognize that vulnerability is not weakness and that Jill's needs, they
• 1:05:47
  aren't demands, they're not criticisms, and so they need to practice turning
• 1:05:51
  toward each other rather than turning away even when it's uncomfortable
• 1:05:56
  With time and therapy and conscious effort, an unhealthy Jack and Jill can
• 1:06:00
  slowly shift toward earned security.
• 1:06:02
  Their nervous systems can gradually learn that connection can be safe,
• 1:06:06
  and conflict can be resolved.
• 1:06:07
  That vulnerability can be met with care and it doesn't need
• 1:06:11
  to be criticism or collapse.
• 1:06:13
  Or giving in or withdraw or attack.
• 1:06:16
  But the process is not quick and it is not easy I have maintained that.
• 1:06:21
  I think it takes a good anywhere between two to five years to
• 1:06:24
  change that implicit memory.
• 1:06:26
  This is my take no research behind it to change your implicit memory
• 1:06:29
  or what it feels like to be you, because that's based off of the slow
• 1:06:32
  residue of your lived experience.
• 1:06:34
  And when you throw the acceptance and commitment therapy lens into
• 1:06:37
  there of every single moment of your life is the first time that
• 1:06:39
  you've ever been in that moment.
• 1:06:40
  So check that out.
• 1:06:42
  And your thoughts and feelings and emotions aren't too much, they're not
• 1:06:45
  odd, they're not, you're not broken.
• 1:06:47
  You're a human being going through life for the first time.
• 1:06:49
  So check this out.
• 1:06:50
  This is how I'm feeling.
• 1:06:50
  This is what I'm thinking.
• 1:06:51
  And sometimes I forget and sometimes I take a few steps
• 1:06:56
  forward and a few steps back.
• 1:06:57
  Isn't that fascinating?
• 1:06:59
  ' cause the research says it takes years of consistent effort, but I don't want that.
• 1:07:03
  Well, you are allowed to have it feel overwhelming and a
• 1:07:05
  lot, but make space for that.
• 1:07:08
  Attachment isn't fixed.
• 1:07:10
  It's not.
• 1:07:10
  It's not in concrete.
• 1:07:12
  It's responsive to ongoing experiences.
• 1:07:14
  Neuroplasticity is real.
• 1:07:16
  Dan Siegel's work on interpersonal neurobiology emphasizes that the
• 1:07:19
  brain remains plastic throughout life and not the cheap kind of
• 1:07:22
  plastic that bad toys are made of.
• 1:07:24
  New experiences create new neuro pathways.
• 1:07:26
  Repeated experiences strengthen those pathways.
• 1:07:29
  For better or worse, if unhealthy, Jack and Jill commit to changing their pattern.
• 1:07:33
  Every instance of Jill's self-soothing instead of pursuing strengthens her
• 1:07:36
  brain's capacity for self-regulation.
• 1:07:38
  And every instance of Jack staying present instead of withdrawing strengthens his
• 1:07:42
  brain's capacity for emotional intimacy.
• 1:07:44
  And slowly, with enough repetition and coming back to it and acknowledging and
• 1:07:48
  taking ownership and giving yourself grace and your partner, these new patterns
• 1:07:52
  become as automatic as the old ones were.
• 1:07:54
  This is the promise of neuroplasticity.
• 1:07:56
  We're not doomed to repeat our childhood patterns forever.
• 1:07:59
  We can create new ones through conscious, repeated effort, but it's important and
• 1:08:04
  ideal when both partners can participate.
• 1:08:06
  For couples work to succeed in moving from insecurity to security, both partners need
• 1:08:10
  to be willing to do their individual work.
• 1:08:12
  If one is not, then you still get to do your individual work,
• 1:08:16
  I promise that will help you.
• 1:08:18
  One person can't heal the relationship alone, but they can figure
• 1:08:21
  themselves out in the relationship.
• 1:08:23
  If only Jill does therapy and Jack refuses to look at his patterns,
• 1:08:26
  Jill might develop more security.
• 1:08:28
  She's also likely to eventually see the relationship as not healthy because
• 1:08:33
  it no longer fits who she's becoming.
• 1:08:35
  If only Jack does the therapy and Jill continues to anxiously pursue, Jack
• 1:08:39
  might develop better boundaries, but the relationship will still feel like
• 1:08:42
  a source of stress rather than support.
• 1:08:44
  The research is pretty clear that relationship transformation requires
• 1:08:47
  both people to engage in their own growth while simultaneously working
• 1:08:50
  on the relationship dynamics.
• 1:08:52
  So let's wrap this thing up.
• 1:08:54
  These stories of the two versions of Jack and Jill illustrate a central
• 1:08:57
  truth from an attachment research and an interpersonal neurobiological lens.
• 1:09:01
  Our early experiences shape, but they don't determine our relationship patterns.
• 1:09:05
  The unhealthy version shows how childhood insecurities can create painful adult
• 1:09:09
  dynamics, not because anybody was bad or wrong, but because nervous
• 1:09:12
  systems wired for self-protection will continue to protect themselves in ways
• 1:09:16
  that worked in childhood, but they damage relationships in adulthood.
• 1:09:20
  The healthy version shows how childhood security creates adult relationships that
• 1:09:23
  feel nourishing instead of depleting, not because anybody's perfect and nobody
• 1:09:27
  has problems, but our nervous systems are wired for connection and we can
• 1:09:30
  continue to seek and create healthy connection and we figure things out
• 1:09:33
  and then this possibility of earned security shows that change is possible.
• 1:09:37
  But it's, it's not easy and it's not quick, but it is worth it.
• 1:09:42
  The mind is both embodied and relational.
• 1:09:44
  We are shaped by our relationships and we shape our relationships.
• 1:09:47
  This is both a challenge and it's an opportunity if relationships
• 1:09:50
  can wire us for insecurity.
• 1:09:52
  Relationships can also rewire us for security.
• 1:09:54
  The key is awareness and willingness and time, and becoming conscious of
• 1:09:57
  our patterns and being willing to do the uncomfortable work of changing them
• 1:10:01
  and giving ourselves the time needed for our new neural pathways to form.
• 1:10:05
  Whether we're talking about Jack and Jill or any couple or our own
• 1:10:08
  relationships, the invitation's the same.
• 1:10:11
  To recognize that how we show up in our relationships comes from somewhere,
• 1:10:15
  and to have compassion for the wounds that created our patterns, and to
• 1:10:19
  courageously choose growth, even when our nervous systems are telling
• 1:10:22
  us, stick with the familiar 'cause.
• 1:10:24
  Ultimately, that's what attachment security offers.
• 1:10:26
  Not a life without struggle or conflict, but a life where connection can be
• 1:10:30
  a resource for navigating struggle instead of a source of additional pain.
• 1:10:33
  And that difference between relationships that drain us and
• 1:10:37
  the relationships that sustain us and allow us to grow and thrive.
• 1:10:41
  That is shaped in a large part by this neural wiring that's built through
• 1:10:45
  thousands of small moments starting in childhood, but also continuing
• 1:10:49
  throughout the rest of your life.
• 1:10:51
  You've got this, this is a big step to be so aware and if you need to look for help
• 1:10:55
  now, do it and start working on things.
• 1:10:58
  Give me your questions, send them in.
• 1:11:00
  I'll do a question and answer episode or two or 10 because this is so important.
• 1:11:05
  If you need help, find it.
• 1:11:06
  Taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with
• 1:11:09
  her song, it's wonderful because I hope I'm selling it to you.
• 1:11:12
  Life can be wonderful.
• 1:11:13
  It does take a little bit of work.
• 1:11:15
  Have a great week.
• 1:11:15
  We'll see you next time on the virtual couch.