Latest / Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community / Second Thoughts | Sacred Spaces or Sacred Cows?

Transcript

Second Thoughts | Sacred Spaces or Sacred Cows? · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

• 0:02
  And that has allowed us to put all our expenses
• 0:06
  into building community, into those
• 0:09
  relationships, into pouring into staffing that
• 0:13
  could make real change happen rather than making mortgage
• 0:17
  payments. This is Journey with
• 0:20
  Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious Canadians find
• 0:24
  inspiration to love others well through real life stories and
• 0:28
  honest conversations.
• 0:32
  What if the most transformative thing we can offer is not a program,
• 0:36
  but ourselves? Hey. We're in our
• 0:40
  second thoughts episode just coming off an interview with,
• 0:44
  Wendy's friend, Erin Oxford. So Wendy, it's
• 0:47
  been a few days since we've chatted with her. Has there been anything from that
• 0:51
  conversation that has sat with you? Yeah. I always love
• 0:55
  having conversations with Erin. She's like an old lost
• 0:59
  friend that when you pick up a conversation, it feels like you've never left. I
• 1:02
  haven't even known her that long, but, she's a
• 1:06
  kindred. And I just really appreciate
• 1:10
  just her soft presence even with us. Like, we talk about
• 1:14
  presence over programs, and I feel like we had presence over
• 1:18
  podcasts, with her in conversation, some of the examples
• 1:22
  that she just gently shared. This is life,
• 1:25
  what it looks like in Downtown Toronto with her
• 1:29
  ministry, and I was just
• 1:32
  moved and encouraged without the
• 1:36
  need to do, do, do, and formula, formula.
• 1:39
  And, wow, that's an amazing program to simply
• 1:43
  be present with her. Yeah. There's a few takeaways I've
• 1:47
  had. I mean, I I did like what she talked about with storytelling. I
• 1:50
  think you brought the topic into the conversation with her where, they have these
• 1:54
  storytelling nights. And that just Mhmm. It made me think about even doing
• 1:58
  this podcast, how it's so important to have these stories. Because when
• 2:01
  we understand, when we know people's stories,
• 2:05
  that's when the most compassion comes out. It's really hard to have
• 2:09
  compassion for someone that you haven't seen, the path that
• 2:13
  they've walked. You haven't stepped into their shoes. Yeah. Because
• 2:16
  otherwise, we we think of people to be fixed or we see
• 2:20
  the presenting issue or the the thing that people
• 2:24
  have categorized them in for, but we may not know that
• 2:28
  they're an excellent cook. Or we may not know that they're
• 2:31
  just so brilliant. We might just see them as a label
• 2:35
  of homelessness or a label of poverty or label of
• 2:39
  child welfare, and we miss the beauty,
• 2:43
  the giftedness, because we haven't taken
• 2:46
  the opportunity to see the person. And that's
• 2:50
  what Erin really has challenged our listeners,
• 2:54
  challenged myself to be reminded of. Let's first be
• 2:57
  with before we think where we go from here because that is actually a
• 3:01
  cocreated thing as we're in relationship. We figure those things
• 3:05
  out. It's not like we just sit there and do nothing. But together
• 3:09
  in relationship, we're able to figure out what does it mean to
• 3:12
  be in community with each other. And it's not like this is
• 3:16
  something that you can only do if it comes naturally to you. Like Mhmm. I
• 3:20
  was reflecting on this how how far I've come in the last ten
• 3:23
  years. I I basically I might be the wrong person to talk about this
• 3:27
  because I literally wrote a book almost on the topic of
• 3:31
  Well, then you're the perfect person to talk about this. Ministry over people. I mean,
• 3:35
  that's not the premise of the book. But there was definitely this underlining
• 3:39
  thing where I separated, ministry to
• 3:42
  people and ministry to God as two separate things and definitely put
• 3:46
  the ministry to God as the number one. And, like, while
• 3:50
  there's there's truth to that, the wrong part was
• 3:53
  separating them to begin with. Because I believe that they're supposed to
• 3:57
  come together. It's the first and second commandment. They're like one another. He doesn't say
• 4:01
  they're separate from each other. And while my stories and experiences
• 4:05
  in the book are all valid, part of my life and
• 4:09
  and my journey, like, even since joining Care
• 4:12
  Impact, hearing people's stories and the path that they've
• 4:16
  walked and all these different perspectives, like, I really was in that echo chamber
• 4:19
  for a long time. It's really made me more of a
• 4:23
  compassionate person, and and I've been able to see more of
• 4:27
  God because I've been able to see the reflection of God in so many different
• 4:31
  people and experiences and how God has worked through many people. And, you
• 4:34
  know, when you've kinda pushed people to the side and you just put ministry first,
• 4:38
  you you really miss out on on that personal connection
• 4:42
  Yeah. On the humanity that God has given us all and the
• 4:46
  ability to see God's work in other people.
• 4:49
  Yeah. Johan, I really appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty,
• 4:53
  your honest reflection because I think if we're all honest,
• 4:58
  we can identify with where you're coming from and that your
• 5:01
  book, by the way, was brilliantly written. I I don't think it's at all like,
• 5:05
  oh, that's no longer true. There's there's so much truth to ministering to
• 5:09
  God. But I think what what I see here, what you're
• 5:12
  describing is something that we should all aspire to and all
• 5:16
  have the humility that you just shared right now and the vulnerability
• 5:20
  that you just shared on display for me right now in
• 5:24
  that as we grow in Christ, this is the
• 5:28
  waters we are swimming in. Doing ministry, that's that's the paradigm that
• 5:31
  we were born into, and so it's it's no wonder that we wanna
• 5:35
  minister to God separately from doing outreach ministry.
• 5:39
  However, as God works within us, I think that's the natural progression of
• 5:43
  the Holy Spirit in our life. And as he brings people into our
• 5:46
  life, he continuously shifts our our
• 5:50
  thinking, expands our thinking, not necessarily, like, changing
• 5:54
  theological worldviews vastly, but we get to know God in
• 5:57
  more depth. And what was the turning point? Can
• 6:01
  you define a turning point or some moments along the
• 6:05
  way, maybe people that God has put into your path that
• 6:08
  helped bring Jesus into that relationship that
• 6:12
  merged the gap so it wasn't just God up here and and people
• 6:15
  outreach over there. Who were the people in
• 6:19
  your path that brought that gap together, closed that gap?
• 6:23
  I think it was it was in my own household seeing how
• 6:27
  I was putting ministry first and seeing my my
• 6:31
  family, my own kids not being ministered to and suffering
• 6:34
  for it. And then being able to transition out of that place into
• 6:38
  a church community that, where there's something for them, where they're being ministered
• 6:42
  to by others, being poured into by others, and not and not just
• 6:45
  relying on me to do it, but actually having friends and and peers
• 6:49
  that love Jesus and pour into each other. And and
• 6:53
  just seeing the change in them and and the amount of fruit that I'm seeing
• 6:56
  in their lives just from being in community with others,
• 7:00
  it's just been transformative for me to see. In between that
• 7:04
  time, we we kinda started a little small group,
• 7:08
  kind of a small house church and just valuing the
• 7:12
  friendships that I have around me and the people that have walked alongside
• 7:15
  for so many years and realizing, you know what? The only reason I was able
• 7:19
  to sustain that is because of those friendships and people that would uphold
• 7:23
  me and lift me. But putting ministry first, sometimes
• 7:27
  I grieved not investing as much as I could have in
• 7:31
  them over the years. And and now I'm just thankful that I can
• 7:35
  do that a little bit more. And even thinking about John
• 7:38
  16, how Jesus said it's better that I go.
• 7:42
  There's lots of layers to that. But one of them I think is if
• 7:45
  Jesus was still on earth, he would've just had a
• 7:49
  crowd following him everywhere. Mhmm. And he was one
• 7:53
  person when he was on earth. But because he left, he was able to send
• 7:57
  the Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit to indwell
• 8:00
  in in his people, so he's actually present with them
• 8:04
  in community wherever they are. And I think that's his heart, not to have
• 8:08
  people just following his physical presence everywhere, but to actually have him
• 8:12
  indwelling and in community, ministering to one another with the holy
• 8:16
  spirit ministering to us and just seeing the fruit of that. Well and
• 8:19
  that's a powerful statement, actually. It's a theological positioning,
• 8:23
  actually, where we aren't just looking to God up in the the
• 8:27
  clouds and having a holy moment. We're pursuing God
• 8:31
  in community, that there is so interconnected.
• 8:35
  And I think that's one of the things that I if I reflect in my
• 8:38
  life and in in our society, there's a lot on spiritual
• 8:42
  formation. We can go to bible college. We can go to seminary. We can go
• 8:45
  to church. And it's a lot about me, myself, and God,
• 8:49
  but there's not a lot relationally, laterally,
• 8:53
  across into community. How do we find God? How do we experience God? How do
• 8:56
  we pursue God? So it's not just a social club. We're not just talking,
• 9:00
  oh, you you enjoyed hanging out, and therefore, that's a
• 9:04
  godly thing. Debatably, yes and no. But how
• 9:08
  do we pursue God in relationship? How do we
• 9:11
  make him a part of our relationships? And and that's something
• 9:15
  that our team at Care Impact we've been sitting with, and how do we help
• 9:19
  close that divide? So we have these church experiences, but then as
• 9:23
  we're inviting them into, vulnerable situations or or real
• 9:27
  needed situations in the community with families and children and youth
• 9:30
  aging out that really need some supports around them,
• 9:34
  they're inviting community, how do we close the gap? And so we've
• 9:38
  we've kinda coined the term relational spiritual formation
• 9:42
  on finding God pursuing God, not just as an
• 9:45
  outreach project to bring Jesus to people, because they might even have Jesus.
• 9:49
  They're just falling on hard times. But how do we
• 9:52
  intentionally pursue Jesus, walk with Jesus
• 9:56
  into community? And sometimes, oftentimes,
• 10:00
  it's the very people who are giving that cup of water, visiting that person in
• 10:04
  prison. That's where we find Jesus. It's Matthew 25 all over
• 10:08
  again. And I think we have a lot to to grow. And
• 10:12
  coming back to what Erin was talking about, one of the stories
• 10:15
  that really, impacted me, and I know, you mentioned
• 10:19
  it earlier as well, when her community, the Dale
• 10:23
  community, they did an offering because Erin was in
• 10:26
  need, with her husband medically ill. And
• 10:30
  they came together and raised a total of
• 10:33
  $78 panhandling in whatever ways they
• 10:37
  could. They wanted to bless Erin, And that stood out to
• 10:41
  me, how they were wanting to give back and
• 10:44
  and work with her in relationship. That that spoke of mutuality
• 10:48
  in my mind. And this was in a community that had a lot of means.
• 10:51
  Right? Like, they put everything together to just they wanted
• 10:55
  to support Erin. Even though she had the money raised
• 10:59
  for the for the surgery, like, this was just this almost
• 11:03
  felt like a bigger a bigger gift to her because she knew they didn't have
• 11:06
  it. But, Wendy, you kinda, I mean, Eren talked
• 11:10
  about how they had to give up a building because they didn't,
• 11:14
  first of all, bit Oh, yeah. They weren't able to afford it. So it just
• 11:17
  kinda forced them to grow smaller, which is kinda cool, and it
• 11:21
  really developed who they are today. You kinda went through a similar
• 11:25
  situation with Carry Impact part of our roots too, where you gave up a building
• 11:28
  once. Right? Like so is there a little bit of a is there a
• 11:32
  little bit of a parallel there as well? Well, I think there is a big
• 11:35
  takeaway. And and nowhere in our discussion with Erin did she
• 11:38
  say buildings are bad, get rid of them, and and go sit in sackcloth,
• 11:43
  because buildings are good. They still use buildings. However, they've
• 11:46
  they've restructured how they their relationship to
• 11:50
  buildings because they're you're right. Their budgets. And
• 11:54
  she said we couldn't afford it. But I would argue a lot of
• 11:57
  churches, if their priorities were the people, they can't afford it either.
• 12:01
  Right? A lot of ministries, a lot of churches can't afford buildings. They're
• 12:05
  costly. However, a lot of churches still pour all
• 12:08
  their funding, into their their buildings at
• 12:12
  the expense of reaching people. But we
• 12:16
  too, we were offered a building. We were in a building renting it very
• 12:19
  affordably because it was sitting empty. And so we had a really good
• 12:23
  relationship, and I really appreciate working with them. They were a
• 12:26
  dwindling congregation willing to to sell it to us at an affordable rate.
• 12:30
  And I've done building projects in the past for community
• 12:33
  development projects, and, I thought, wow. This is a really
• 12:37
  good piece of land, a really good building. We could have a ministry
• 12:41
  center. So my vision just kicked in overdrive. I had a
• 12:44
  proposal ready to go. I thought, you know what? This is actually stood a chance
• 12:48
  to get it all funded. But somewhere along the line, we had
• 12:52
  already a letter of offer, received as far as
• 12:56
  sort of our intent to purchase, and they had accepted it.
• 12:59
  But God really put it on my mind, on my heart to say,
• 13:04
  Wendy, I don't want you managing
• 13:07
  buildings. I didn't call you into building management. Yes. You could have many
• 13:11
  ministries operating out of one building. Yes. It would be a
• 13:14
  sustainable way. Yes. That's cool, but it's not your mantle to carry.
• 13:18
  And, being an opportunist, I thought, but are you
• 13:22
  sure, god? And he always is. Are you sure, god? Because this is
• 13:26
  an amazing building. We could do a ton of good for many
• 13:29
  ministries, for many people, but he he shifted us
• 13:33
  away. And I am so grateful. Like, God can be trusted
• 13:37
  in those niggles and those nudges even when it's counterintuitive, even when
• 13:41
  everything stacks up in my favor. And I gave that up, and
• 13:45
  a few months later, the pandemic happened. So I was super glad that I wasn't
• 13:48
  sitting with a big empty building. And we had already shifted
• 13:52
  into remote working, and that has allowed us to put all
• 13:56
  our expenses into building community,
• 14:00
  into those relationships, into pouring into staffing that
• 14:04
  could make real change happen rather than making
• 14:08
  mortgage payments. And so, yeah, I've been on both sides.
• 14:11
  I've done a $6,600,000 project
• 14:15
  in a in a development project that is still running today, and thank goodness
• 14:19
  there's still green space and buildings and programs running because of it. But
• 14:23
  I've also exited a building, And I'm working out of my Shasta
• 14:27
  in my backyard, and I say glory be, because God can
• 14:31
  use both of it. But both of those, God was directing
• 14:34
  me for the community. What is his intent?
• 14:38
  And I think we're not looking for a formula, copy and
• 14:41
  paste ministries. He's looking for how can we be
• 14:45
  most intentionally with the people that he's called us to.
• 14:49
  And I think what we are building, we're building with the
• 14:53
  intent of people getting together in community and seeing transformation
• 14:56
  that way. Like, even Yeah. With our neighbor up that we're building, it's a
• 15:00
  it's a small group experience learning how to love our neighbors
• 15:04
  better, but it's meant to be done in community with others. This
• 15:08
  podcast, the stories again, we want people to hear the stories
• 15:12
  and be able to relate to their neighbors, relate to others in a better way.
• 15:15
  I mean, at the same time, I'm in a church that has a bunch of
• 15:18
  buildings. They're doing a lot of really good things and there's, and I don't really
• 15:22
  have an issue with it. Like, they buy old buildings and refurbish them rather than
• 15:26
  building new because they want it to pour into the community. So they're doing some
• 15:28
  really good things. So I think there are ways for us to be able to
• 15:31
  use buildings better. Well and it's easier said than done because
• 15:35
  I I know there's plenty of good examples. And if you are one of those
• 15:38
  ministries or one of those churches that are doing things differently
• 15:42
  with your building, let us know. Join our our
• 15:46
  podcast group and and interact with us because you guys are
• 15:49
  leading the way. There's a lot of churches that have multi
• 15:53
  churches running out of one building. I think that's awesome across the
• 15:56
  denominations. I see some churches that have multi
• 16:00
  programs, nonprofits, and churches, and schools
• 16:03
  operating even right here in our own city. I have good examples of that.
• 16:07
  And I think there's so many good uses for our buildings.
• 16:11
  You're right. We're not against buildings, but I feel that there needs
• 16:15
  to be a huge release of control. And sometimes
• 16:19
  buildings can be our sacred cow. Sometimes buildings
• 16:23
  can be something that, no. This is our ministry. Now this is how
• 16:26
  we do it. We wanna do programs our way when really what
• 16:30
  we're creating is multi silos across the city. We wouldn't
• 16:34
  necessarily see it that way because we're so well invested in our our
• 16:37
  bubble that we are like, this is it. We're the mecca.
• 16:41
  But I love the examples when we can open up our
• 16:44
  buildings to faith based organizations,
• 16:48
  government programs, others that we can really utilize
• 16:53
  the bricks and mortar for something so much
• 16:56
  greater than just simply doing church
• 17:00
  in community under our own programs and really having control
• 17:04
  over all those things. And I think we have to reconsider
• 17:08
  how we are stewarding our buildings, or are we just wanting to have a
• 17:11
  control in having our little ministry niche in the the
• 17:15
  community? So it is kinda odd having these essentially, the
• 17:19
  largest meeting spaces in any city. It's only to be used once or twice a
• 17:23
  week. It's really strange, actually. It is.
• 17:26
  So what about that where when we choose productivity
• 17:30
  and programs and and meetings over
• 17:34
  presence and being present with people? Yeah. I guess the other thing is
• 17:37
  we can say, oh, you know what? We have this building. It's seven days. So
• 17:40
  let's just ramp up the programs. Let's hire people. Let's
• 17:44
  get the tithes rolling. And it is a bit of a marketing thing within the
• 17:48
  church. So if we get enough people and we get enough programs, we can
• 17:52
  make sure we use it twenty four seven, and we can be a hub.
• 17:56
  Not bad in itself, but then you have to ask yourself,
• 18:00
  are we just building a community center for
• 18:04
  ourselves? Is our club just getting busier for our
• 18:07
  people, or is it actually doing some greater good? Is
• 18:11
  it being actively present? Is it meeting needs that our community is
• 18:15
  actually wanting? Is it responding to to those things?
• 18:19
  Or are we just being busy with our buildings? Yeah. I don't know. I
• 18:23
  don't know if I have an answer to that. And And I think that's something
• 18:26
  that we're gonna continue wrestling with. Like, what are we using our
• 18:30
  buildings for? Are we really serving the community and the
• 18:34
  people that the Lord has has given us in our
• 18:38
  sphere of influence in our area of the city? And I believe we're
• 18:41
  gonna have to account for that one day when we stand before him. I've given
• 18:45
  you these things. How did you use them? Yeah. And I wonder
• 18:49
  I wonder if it it also starts, Johan, with fasting from
• 18:53
  being busy, getting off the treadmill of program, program, program.
• 18:57
  And it's not an invitation to apathy, but an invitation to stop and be
• 19:01
  present. Because how can we actually know what is needed in the community? How can
• 19:04
  we actually discern how our buildings should be used if we don't get off
• 19:08
  the bandwagon and stop printing bulletins of all the programs? You
• 19:12
  know? And so and stop filling our websites full of of of
• 19:15
  programs or an empty building that we're not doing anything.
• 19:19
  Could we stop and listen and be present with
• 19:23
  people to discern what we should be
• 19:26
  putting our hand to, where we should be investing our time
• 19:30
  with. If we follow Jesus, which we should be, he
• 19:33
  started with people at the well, with the with the
• 19:37
  leper, with the people. He he hung out with the people
• 19:41
  and just responded. It sounds so simple,
• 19:44
  but I dare the church to do that. And Erin talked about this too
• 19:48
  where she went to her community to ask, hey. What do you wanna
• 19:52
  see with this ministry? Like, what what do you think is possible? She talked
• 19:56
  about how she had to do that dance of what is possible and
• 19:59
  what they wanna see. And and that might be a good question for us
• 20:03
  to ask. What you know what? We have these resources. We have this building. We
• 20:06
  have this community. These people that are willing to pour into their
• 20:10
  surroundings, their neighborhoods. Yeah. What is possible? Well, I can
• 20:14
  tell you from experience when I was, working in an old dilapidated
• 20:17
  building in in a core area of Winnipeg.
• 20:21
  And we were literally having, like, our
• 20:24
  roof cave in and mold, and it was it it
• 20:28
  needed to it was condemned. And we needed to but that place
• 20:32
  was so needed, a a needed area to be present in.
• 20:35
  I remember filling one of the rooms we dedicated to a dream
• 20:39
  room, and we put lined the walls all with paper, rolls of
• 20:43
  white paper. We put a bunch of markers. And what the message that we said
• 20:46
  to all the people in our programs and in in the community, we said,
• 20:50
  welcome to the dream room. Come in anytime that the the building is open.
• 20:54
  We want you to graffiti these walls full of ideas of
• 20:58
  what you need, what you envision, not just what you need, but
• 21:02
  what you envision a flourishing community should look like. And so
• 21:05
  we had from little kids doing
• 21:09
  coloring on the walls and pictures of a playground to
• 21:13
  grandma's cougombs that were expressing their heart's
• 21:17
  desire of what they saw flourishing communities looking like or the
• 21:20
  the memories that they wanted to bring back that would bring health to our community
• 21:24
  and vitality to the community. We put that all together. Boy,
• 21:28
  was that a happening, buzzing place. It was so fun. And I
• 21:32
  realized, man, right around us, we could have come up with,
• 21:35
  like, oh, we're gonna do this, that, and the other thing. And they're they're all
• 21:38
  the traditional what you should do to solve, fix a community. But here
• 21:42
  were some innovative, amazing ideas.
• 21:47
  And what that did in the development process for
• 21:50
  the the rebuild of the new building, one, they were part of me coming
• 21:54
  to funders and saying, this isn't just my wish list. This is what our
• 21:57
  community has spoken, and this is why they want these
• 22:01
  things. But you know what the best thing, Johan, that was
• 22:05
  vivid in my mind was when we had the grand
• 22:08
  opening day, and we invited community to walk
• 22:12
  through and tour their building. And I could overhear
• 22:16
  these people say, oh, this is what I put in
• 22:20
  for. Oh, yeah. We we talked about this. This is exactly what we
• 22:24
  designed. And just to see that ownership, this is our building,
• 22:28
  and us to just say welcome home, There's nothing like it. But
• 22:31
  I think if we if we bring that down to a church level, we have
• 22:35
  a little ways to go to make a dream room for the community to
• 22:39
  speak rather than us providing solutions for what we
• 22:42
  would love the community to have. Are the buildings and
• 22:46
  the programs, are they serving the community or is the
• 22:50
  community serving the buildings and programs? I think that's kinda what it comes down
• 22:53
  to. Something we all need to wrestle with. I think we should probably
• 22:57
  end the conversation there, and let's get into our CareLingo
• 23:00
  segment. CareLingo. Alright. This is
• 23:04
  kind of a related word to our topic, when we're
• 23:07
  talking about programs and
• 23:11
  programs over people, that sort of thing. Our term today is
• 23:15
  voluntourism. Mhmm. It's kind of a plan word. I'm not I'm not
• 23:19
  even sure if it's a real word, but it's it's I've heard it a lot.
• 23:22
  Yeah. But, you know, there's there's sometimes made up
• 23:26
  sometimes made up words that you hear lots.
• 23:30
  Honestly, I didn't know what it was when I first heard it, which is, I
• 23:33
  don't know, probably several years ago. But I'll let you give the right definition. But
• 23:37
  what I would have thought is, you know, booking your next vacation,
• 23:41
  with someone with matching t shirts that has a caption on how you're
• 23:45
  helping others. You know? Oh, that's so annoying. It's like,
• 23:49
  look at us. Look what we did. We're going on tour. We're
• 23:52
  going on vacation. But we want people to know,
• 23:56
  while we're sitting on the beach, that we're really good people, that we help others
• 24:00
  when we're back at home. So volunteerism. Yeah.
• 24:03
  Well, maybe, we should make your dream come true. You and Corey go on a
• 24:07
  vacation. We could make you a t shirt for Care Impact volunteerism.
• 24:12
  I'd I'd be up for that, volunteer. Yeah. I'd wear this
• 24:15
  shirt. Yeah. Okay. Even if I don't agree with it right now, if it gets
• 24:19
  me on a vacation, I'll take it. You're not volunteering, but if people don't give
• 24:22
  you more support, it's basically as volunteers. I might look like
• 24:26
  I'm living a lavish lifestyle, but really, I I help people. I'm
• 24:30
  a good person back at home. I live I
• 24:33
  live frugally, volunteerism. What does it actually mean, though,
• 24:37
  Wendy? Well well, it's it it may be part of a a
• 24:41
  larger discussion than we have time for here today, but it there is some
• 24:45
  critique around the tourism when it it's spoken of sort
• 24:48
  of on a negative tone, when we critique short term service
• 24:52
  trips that prioritize kind of those feel good experiences,
• 24:56
  exposure to other countries, and a bit like, let's be
• 24:59
  honest, a bit exploitative, get those pictures with those cute grubby
• 25:03
  kids and the white girl in the middle. I'm just talking myself
• 25:07
  here. And getting those exposure trips probably in
• 25:11
  a warm country maybe in the December, just saying,
• 25:14
  or or January. But we we prioritize that
• 25:18
  volunteer. Maybe we're painting an orphanage or or something that they
• 25:22
  could have hired somebody to do for themselves and had a job
• 25:25
  given locally or, maybe something a little more
• 25:29
  constructive that they actually wanted than what we bring in our suitcase,
• 25:33
  over that long term well-being of communities. And so,
• 25:37
  yeah. So it's it's useful for volunteerism is a
• 25:41
  term that might be useful for conversations about, how
• 25:44
  we go about missions, how we go about outreach, even in our own community.
• 25:48
  You don't have to go across the world. You might be going across the
• 25:52
  tracks. And how are we exposing? How are we
• 25:56
  being present in community? That conversation
• 25:59
  about, like, power, who holds the power in that, and who
• 26:03
  are we listening to, and how are we being present,
• 26:07
  and is that relationally sustainable in what
• 26:10
  we're doing, or is there, if we're honest, a bit of exploitation?
• 26:14
  But there is good ways. Let me let me end with this. There are
• 26:18
  good ways to engage cross culturally, whether it's across the
• 26:22
  world or across the tracks. There are ways to actually
• 26:25
  meaningfully be present and learn with and do in an
• 26:29
  equitable way. So don't be afraid of of
• 26:33
  crossing cultures and learning and being a blessing to
• 26:36
  others, but just be aware of volunteerism.
• 26:40
  Yeah. Because you wanna build relationship, not not
• 26:44
  just, you know, one and done. It's a posture. And
• 26:48
  there's there's the idea of helping and not hurting as well when you
• 26:52
  go into a new culture. Right? But until next time Until next
• 26:55
  time. Remember to stay curious. Thank you for
• 26:59
  joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on weekly
• 27:03
  episodes, upcoming opportunities, or to connect with our
• 27:06
  community, visit journeywithcare.ca or find Care Impact
• 27:10
  on Facebook and Instagram, or just check the show notes for these
• 27:13
  links and all the links related to this episode. Share your thoughts,
• 27:17
  leave us a message, and be part of a network of individuals journeying in
• 27:21
  faith and purpose. Together, let's discover how we can make a
• 27:24
  meaningful impact.