Latest / Catholic Spirit Radio / Catholic Conversations #184: “I Knew the Bible — Then I Became Catholic”: Dr. David Anders’ Conversion

Transcript

Catholic Conversations #184: “I Knew the Bible — Then I Became Catholic”: Dr. David Anders’ Conversion · Catholic Spirit Radio

0:00
Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
0:04
Hello, and welcome to Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
0:09
I'm your host, Teresa Chambers. Today, I have the privilege of interviewing
0:13
one of my favorite hosts on Catholic Spirit Radio, Dr.
0:17
David Anders, host of Call to Communion on EWTN.
0:21
He is here to discuss the value of Catholic Radio and tell us about his faith journey.
0:28
Welcome, Dr. Anders. Hi, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate the invitation.
0:32
Catholic Spirit Radio has called to communion on weekdays from 1 to 2 p.m.
0:37
And Dr. Andrews' favorite question is, what's stopping you from becoming a Catholic?
0:42
His show explores and asks various questions about Catholicism,
0:47
with most questions being asked by non-Catholics.
0:50
And I know listening to called to communion over the years, Dr.
0:54
Andrews, I've appreciated your knowledge and expertise on Catholicism and the
0:59
knowledge of other faiths.
1:00
For those who don't know your history, please tell us how you became a Catholic.
1:07
Yeah, thanks so much. I really appreciate that offer. So I grew up in Birmingham,
1:11
Alabama, which I read one time was the most Protestant city in America as measured
1:16
by church attendance per capita.
1:18
And so it was a pretty thoroughgoing Protestant city. And so that meant that
1:23
I didn't know a lot of Catholics growing up.
1:25
And in fact, I should say that the only Catholics that I knew were ex-Catholics.
1:30
They were Catholics that had stopped practicing Catholicism and had come over
1:33
into the Presbyterian Church or some other Protestant church that I was affiliated with.
1:38
And so needless to say, the testimonies that they gave about their Catholicism
1:42
were not glowing because they had left the church for one reason or another.
1:45
And most of them, it was because they had—usually, the common story is that
1:50
they had grown up Catholic but didn't know anything.
1:52
They grew up Catholic but didn't know the Bible. They grew up Catholic but didn't
1:55
have a relationship with Jesus, what have you. And then they found some other
1:58
spirituality and other tradition.
2:00
So the tradition I grew up in also believed quite emphatically that it would
2:05
not be possible to go to heaven if one were a consistent Catholic, right?
2:11
That the Catholic Church was fundamentally in error about essential things.
2:17
And that if one took the Catholic faith seriously and believed it, one could not be saved.
2:22
In particular because the Catholic faith teaches that with the help of God's
2:26
grace, we do in fact merit eternal life, and the Protestant Church teaches that
2:30
you cannot possibly merit eternal life even with God's grace.
2:33
It's entirely by faith alone, and that to even believe that you could merit
2:38
salvation would be to disqualify you for salvation because that requires trusting
2:43
that you were saved by Christ alone and not by your own merit.
2:46
So Catholics were ruled out from the beginning as having any possibility of
2:49
salvation. You add to that the fact that Catholics also prayed to Mary and the saints,
2:54
which Protestants regard as idolatry, and it wasn't hard to see how they came
2:57
to the conclusion they did, which was the Pope was the Antichrist and the Church the Whore of Babylon.
3:02
So needless to say, becoming Catholic was the last thing in the world I had in mind.
3:07
But after high school, I eventually made it, went to Tulane University in New
3:11
Orleans for a couple of years and then transferred to a Christian college in
3:13
the Midwest, Wheaton College in Illinois, where I got bit by the theology bug
3:18
to start studying theology, and I decided, hey, this is pretty cool.
3:21
I'd like to do this for the rest of my life. I also met a girl when I was at
3:25
Tulane who ended up becoming my wife we graduated from Wheaton and about a year
3:29
later I enrolled in seminary again an evangelical Protestant seminary with the
3:34
goal of becoming a professor I wanted to teach theology in a Protestant seminary or Protestant college,
3:40
no intention of becoming Catholic and when it came time for PhD studies I elected
3:45
to study the history of the Protestant Reformation because after all that was
3:49
the that kind of the heart and soul of my tradition and I wanted to understand
3:52
the faith really, really well.
3:53
To make a long story short, I was disillusioned, or disabused, maybe I should say,
3:59
because in studying church history, I came to understand that the church that
4:03
I thought that I had belonged to was not the church, the faith once for all
4:08
delivered to the saints, but it was in fact a modern innovation,
4:11
and modern evangelical Protestantism,
4:13
wasn't even faithful to its own roots in the Reformation.
4:16
So Lutheran, Calvin, and the 16th century reformers would not have recognized
4:20
it. they in turn would not have recognized Luther and Calvin.
4:23
To say nothing of their lack of continuity with Christian antiquity,
4:28
the Church of the First Four Centuries.
4:29
So that really threw me for a loop, and it made me question a lot of things,
4:33
and I went back to the study of Scripture, which I knew quite well,
4:36
but I knew it from a distinctly Protestant angle,
4:38
and I went back with a more open mind and came to the conclusion that the Scriptures
4:42
themselves did not support the Protestant position,
4:45
but were more convenient, I should say, to the Catholic faith.
4:49
And And that and some personal struggles I was going through led me to the realization
4:54
that not only was faith alone not true, it was also not relevant to my existential
5:01
needs, that I needed more than faith alone in life.
5:03
I needed the transformative power of grace to acquire virtue,
5:06
to be a better husband, a better father, a better person.
5:09
I needed more than Scripture alone in my life to guide me.
5:13
I needed the wisdom of a tradition and the example of saints.
5:15
And in short, all of the riches of the Catholic faith began to appear to me
5:20
not only as true, but also as deeply relevant to me.
5:24
And so I began to consider the possibility of becoming Catholic.
5:29
But it's a big step to become Catholic when you've been raised to think it's the whore of Babylon.
5:33
It was the stuff I put off for a long time, until one day, I was living in Birmingham
5:37
again, I'd come back from the Midwest,
5:39
and I was in my car, and I pulled up behind another car at a stoplight,
5:43
and I looked ahead of me, and I noticed the car in front of me had a bumper
5:46
sticker advertising the local Catholic radio station.
5:50
And I thought, well, that's interesting, so I might want to listen to it.
5:52
So I tuned in, and lo and behold, I fell on EWTN, I was listening to Catholic Answers, in fact.
5:58
Didn't know I was listening to EWTN. Didn't know I was listening to the Catholic Answers.
6:01
But I found the programming to be quite compelling. And I thought,
6:05
I'd like to talk to these guys.
6:07
And I had, as of yet, I really had never talked to a living Catholic.
6:11
All the Catholics I knew were dead 500 years or more.
6:14
So I learned about Marcus Grodi and the Coming Home Network in Ohio.
6:18
And I called those fellows up.
6:20
And I asked them to network with me and help me find a Protestant who had become
6:26
a Catholic in my hometown of Birmingham, Alabama.
6:29
And that's when I learned that EWTN was located five miles from my house.
6:33
Something that I did not know. I didn't even know there was such a thing as EWTN.
6:38
So the first time I ever went to EWTN, it was not to make Catholic radio.
6:42
It was to meet a convert and talk about the possibility of becoming Catholic.
6:45
I eventually did become Catholic in 2003.
6:48
So I guess we're coming up on 22 years ago. It was November 2003.
6:53
And then I remembered at EWTN that they had Franciscan friars out there who
7:00
heard confessions on a daily basis, and that seemed like a pretty good deal to me.
7:04
So I started going back out there. Again, no thought of Catholic radio.
7:06
I started going back out there to go to confession, and I noticed that they
7:11
had mass on the campus, and it was a mass choir that sang.
7:15
And back in the day, I used to be a singer, and so I thought,
7:18
well, maybe I'll join the mass choir.
7:20
So I joined the mass choir. I found myself singing in the vicinity of an alto
7:26
named Adrienne Price, who happened to be married to the radio programming director, Tom Price.
7:33
And through my relationship with Adrienne and later Tom, I got invited to do
7:39
some work with Marcus Grodi on the Coming Home Network.
7:41
I was on the Journey Home, and that went down fairly well.
7:45
And I got invited to do a few more things. I filled in a number of times on
7:50
Catholic Answers as a guest, answering questions and objections from Protestants,
7:54
and then that led to an invitation to doing a once-a-week show with EWTN.
8:00
And then that was in 2012, and then in 2014, an invitation to host my own show,
8:08
which became called The Communion, which is a daily show Monday through Friday,
8:12
and televised a couple times a week.
8:15
So Catholic Radio was really integral to
8:19
So my conversion to Catholicism, it wasn't the only thing, but it was a key
8:23
moment in my life, and I had no idea that I would end up on the other side of the microphone.
8:28
But now, doing the work that I do, I get to recapitulate the steps of my own
8:34
intellectual quest, my own spiritual development, and turn that into help,
8:40
I think, for people that are on the same journey or a similar one.
8:42
And you know what? That is an amazing place for us to pause because I could
8:49
ask you a thousand questions on what you just said, but we've got to take a
8:52
quick break to hear from our sponsors.
8:54
My name's Teresa Chambers. We're interviewing Dr. David Andrews from Call to
8:59
Communion, and we will be right back.
9:01
You're listening to Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
9:04
Miracles, miracles, miracles.
9:07
Yes, with God, all things are possible.
9:10
How can we not be astounded when we think of the miracles told in the Bible,
9:15
the Eucharistic miracle that happens on the altar during the consecration at
9:19
every Mass, and the miracles that transform and save people we know?
9:23
Hi, this is Debbie Giorgiani from EWTN. The topic of miracles is so stirring
9:29
that we chose that theme for the Catholic Spirit Radio Network's Fall Appeal
9:33
this October 29th through the 31st.
9:36
When you listen, your hearts and minds will be awed by the facts and real stories of miracles.
9:42
We've invited extraordinary guests to join us. You won't want to miss a single
9:47
one, October 29th through the 31st, exclusively on this radio station.
9:53
As you listen, I know that your appreciation of the value of Catholic Spirit
9:57
Radio will be reaffirmed.
9:59
This network is a tremendous asset with 12 stations reaching communities like
10:04
yours throughout Illinois and Wisconsin.
10:06
Catholic Spirit Radio is a
10:08
listener-supported nonprofit, so your donations are what make it possible.
10:12
Please support this radio station in a big way. Mail them a fall appeal check.
10:18
Call during the broadcasts, or go online and make a donation.
10:22
During these days, every donor gets a special thank you gift,
10:25
and we promise to pray for a miracle or need just for you.
10:29
On top of that, we have hourly food gift cards to give away,
10:33
and maybe you'll become the owner of one of the two grand giveaways.
10:37
We're excited to share this time with you. Here are the dates again.
10:41
October 29th through the 31st, 7 a.m.
10:44
To 6 p.m. Miracles. With God, all things are possible.
10:49
Tune in to our radio station or watch the live feed on your Facebook page.
10:53
Hear facts and stories about miracles and feel the excitement as we join together
10:58
to support the Catholic Spirit Radio Network and its evangelization mission.
11:03
God bless you. Catholic Spirit Radio invites everyone for an outdoor rosary
11:08
and song event on Tuesday, October 7th, which is the Feast of Our Lady of the
11:13
Rosary. The event parking lot opens at 6 p.m.
11:15
With refreshments, fellowship, and tours of the radio station.
11:19
The rosary begins at 7 p.m.
11:21
With Marian songs interspersed throughout the prayers.
11:24
Bring your rosary lawn chair family and friends to 108 Boykin's Place in Normal.
11:29
Let's pray and sing for Mary's intercession for peace and to unite our nation under God.
11:34
It's time again for the Rosary Rally. The American Needs Phantom of Rosary Rally
11:38
is scheduled for Saturday, October 11th. Over 22,000 rosary rallies will pray for our nation.
11:44
Join us on October 11th on Center and Chestnut Streets in Bloomington. Prayers begin at noon.
11:55
Here we are back with Dr. David Anders on Catholic Spirit Radio.
12:00
Dr. David Anders is EWTN's host of Called to Communion, right here on Catholic
12:05
Spirit Radio, Monday through Friday from 1 to 2 p.m.
12:08
And we just had a quick break so that we could take a pause because he had just
12:13
told us how he became a host on EWTN growing up just five miles from EWTN's
12:21
home base in Birmingham, Alabama.
12:23
But one thing I wanted to ask you, Dr. Andrews, is what would you tell someone
12:27
who is just like you, who just saw a bumper sticker that said Catholic Spirit Radio,
12:32
listen today, listen now, What would you tell that person who may not be a Catholic
12:36
that's listening for the first time? I'd like to ask them a question.
12:40
I would like to put a question to them. And this is the question I would like to say, do you think—,
12:45
that a man could grow up and learn the Bible really well, that he could believe
12:50
it, that he could give his heart to Jesus, believe he was saved by faith alone.
12:56
Understand all the reasons that Catholics are wrong, understand that Catholics, you know,
13:01
worship Mary and worship the saints and bow down to a tyrant in Rome called
13:06
the Pope and do all these terrible things that Protestants say they do,
13:10
understand all of that about Catholicism.
13:13
Know the Bible really well, and then with wide eyes open make the decision to
13:18
become Catholic knowing that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus.
13:22
Do you think a person could actually do that?
13:24
The reason I ask the question is that if you had put that question to me 20
13:28
years ago well not 20, if you put it to me 25 years ago, 26 years ago I would
13:33
have said absolutely not.
13:34
No way. Nobody could really know the Bible.
13:37
Maybe an ignorant person, nobody could really know the Bible and they'd do something
13:41
so foolish as to become Catholic. No, that's unthinkable.
13:44
I couldn't have contemplated it.
13:46
And I would like to challenge that person and tell them, that's who I was.
13:51
I was that guy. I was the guy who knew the Bible really well.
13:55
I mean, I was a theology, undergraduate theology student.
13:59
I was a seminary grad. I went to one of the best evangelical seminaries in the
14:03
world, studied with the top scholars, leading lights in evangelical Protestantism.
14:08
I mean, I knew the thing backwards and forwards, and I had all the reasons why
14:14
Catholics were wrong, and I mean, I could rattle them off better than anybody.
14:17
I mean, I was an effective apologist for Protestantism. I remember convincing
14:21
Catholics to leave the Catholic Church, right, with my pro-Protestant apologetics, and I was good at it.
14:27
I really understood the issues, and I was absolutely sure the Catholics were wrong.
14:31
But I reversed my position eventually and came to realize that I had the wrong
14:35
side of the argument. I remember it was a key moment in my life.
14:39
Again, my conversion was made up of like a thousand key moments.
14:43
Like none of them was the thing.
14:44
You know, they're all just bricks in the road that were building a structure
14:48
that eventually became my Catholic faith.
14:51
So I was at the University of Iowa. I was in the School of Religion,
14:55
the religion department.
14:56
And it was a sort of multi-traditional department. So they had,
15:00
you know, people who studied history of Christianity, people who studied Judaism,
15:03
people who studied Buddhism, Hinduism, you name it.
15:05
And there were also people in there who studied the New Testament.
15:07
Some people studied the Old Testament.
15:09
And there was a fellow in the school who was a New Testament scholar.
15:14
He was specializing in something with intertestamental Judaism,
15:17
and he had been a Pentecostal believer, and he had lost his faith because of higher criticism.
15:22
And I, you know, my heart went out to him because he grieved the loss of his
15:27
faith, but, you know, he'd lost it.
15:28
And so I did what good evangelicals do, and I started sharing with him about
15:33
my experience of Christ.
15:35
You're not arguing, you're sharing. And he was like, yeah, I've kind of heard all that.
15:39
But, you know, he said, it's the Catholics who have the better side of the debate
15:44
concerning justification.
15:46
And I couldn't believe my ears because I thought, wait a minute,
15:50
I could imagine an ignorant person saying that.
15:54
But this guy knows the New Testament in Greek better than I do.
15:58
And I mean, I know it well, but he's been working on this thing for years.
16:01
He really knows what he's talking about.
16:03
And here he is making an outlandish statement like that.
16:06
And I said, well, how can you say such a thing? I mean, here it is in black
16:09
and white. You know, Paul says we're justified by faith and not by works of the law.
16:12
And he began to walk me through systematically a reading of the book of Romans.
16:17
And I knew Romans. I might have read it 10,000 times. to walk me through a reading
16:21
of the Book of Romans that suddenly made intuitively more sense to me than the
16:27
reading that I had been given as a Protestant and had been current for 500 years.
16:31
And it made me really uncomfortable. I mean, I thought, there's something to
16:36
what this guy is saying. It made me really uncomfortable.
16:38
And so then I went back to the drawing board, and I said, well,
16:42
I've got to think this thing out for myself. So I went to the library,
16:44
and I checked out a bunch of research on Paul's letter to the Romans and Paul's
16:48
letter to the Galatians.
16:50
And I didn't read Catholics. I really read the top evangelicals,
16:53
well, not evangelicals.
16:54
I read the top Protestant scholars in the field on these books,
16:58
you know, recent scholars.
16:59
And then I learned something really shocking. And what I learned was many of
17:03
the top Protestant scholars had rejected the Reformation reading of these books
17:09
and said that Luther had basically gotten Paul wrong.
17:11
And there's a movement in modern biblical scholarship called the New Perspectives on Paul.
17:16
And it basically is trying to read Paul in his first century Second Temple Jewish context.
17:24
And it sheds some light, brings some perspective in what he does and the fruit
17:28
of that from my way of looking at it is that the new perspectives ended up vindicating
17:33
the oldest perspective which was the Catholic perspective on Paul,
17:37
and these guys are not Catholics who are coming up with these arguments.
17:39
I mean many of them are pretty vehement anti-Catholic for reasons other than
17:43
the letters of Paul But that really shook me to my foundation, shook me to my core.
17:49
Alongside this, I'm mostly a historian, not a biblical scholar,
17:52
so I'm studying history, and I'm reading, in particular, St.
17:54
Augustine, who was the Protestant's favorite church father.
17:59
And he's always the one they cite in support of their views.
18:02
And I was digging in and just reading thousands of pages of Augustine.
18:06
And I came to another really, really, really disturbing realization,
18:09
and that was that Augustine didn't hold the Reformation doctrine.
18:13
The position he held was much more similar to St. Thomas or to the Council of Trent.
18:18
And so neither Scripture nor Christian antiquity really supported the Protestant reading.
18:23
And that was just absolutely devastating to me, you know, because the two pillars
18:27
of my evangelical faith were, number one, the doctrine of justification by faith
18:30
as being the teaching of Scripture,
18:32
and number two, that it was this teaching of the ancient church,
18:36
supposedly, that the Reformers had recovered.
18:38
And now I find the scriptures don't teach it and the reformers didn't recover
18:42
anything they invented it.
18:44
And that did not make me a Catholic, but man,
18:48
that shook my Protestantism absolutely to the core, and it threw me into a completely
18:55
different mode of existence, and that existence was salvage my faith at all costs.
18:59
And that was my objective, not to become a Catholic, but to find a workaround,
19:04
to come up with some ad hoc explanation for this new data that could still accommodate
19:10
me remaining Protestant.
19:11
Because I had my entire life invested in being Protestant.
19:15
My family, my marriage, you know, my heritage, my education,
19:22
my job, my future, my friends, everything was wrapped up in this identity.
19:27
I really wanted to save it. I did not want to become Catholic at all.
19:32
And so I began to subject the tradition to critical scrutiny in the hopes of vindicating it.
19:38
And what I found was the more critical scrutiny I brought to bear,
19:42
the worse the picture was looking.
19:43
And maybe later on in the interview, we can go on and talk about some of those
19:46
other pillars that came crumbling down.
19:48
But you asked me the question I would put or the statement I would make to the casual listener.
19:54
And it would be, do you really think a well-formed Christian could,
19:58
with eyes wide open, make a decision to become Catholic?
20:01
If you think the answer to that question is no, let me talk to you.
20:06
Well, and I think that you're kind of tying things back to evangelization,
20:10
which is kind of what we're doing on Catholic radio today.
20:15
So what do you think is the great way? Catholic Radio, if people want to know
20:20
a great way to evangelize, and I'm not, this is not just, this is not me being
20:23
self-serving here, support Catholic Radio.
20:26
That you could not do a better job. And I'll tell you why.
20:30
First of all, when I became Catholic, I went and knocked on the door of the parish.
20:34
I met the priest, and I said, Father, I think I may want to become Catholic.
20:39
And he said to me, Oh, did you marry a Catholic? Or did you read your way into the church?
20:45
And I said, Well, option B, I read my way in. Because that's how I got in.
20:49
And it was conspicuous what he did not say. He did not say to me,
20:53
Oh, did you marry a Catholic? Did you read your way in?
20:56
Or did the Wednesday night evangelism group come knock on your door?
21:00
And you know very well why he didn't say option three. Tell me why he didn't say option three.
21:05
Because there's no Wednesday night evangelism group. Yeah, I was going to say,
21:08
I'm like, never heard of that one. There's no Wednesday night evangelism group.
21:11
Like, how many Catholic parishes have a Wednesday night evangelism group? Very few, right?
21:17
Actual human, you know, human-to-human evangelistic outreach is something that
21:22
Catholics are told they ought to do.
21:24
And yet, by and large, Catholic parishes do not resource them to do it.
21:29
Now, and let me tell you something, resourcing people to do that,
21:32
there's basic things you can share that are very valuable.
21:35
But the Catholic is at a little bit of a competitive disadvantage.
21:38
And I'll tell you why. If you are, you know, up against, as it were,
21:43
your friendly neighborhood Baptist, he just has one book he has to master the Bible.
21:48
But the data set of Catholic tradition is vast.
21:53
And Catholicism is premised on the idea that the Bible is not self-interpreting,
21:58
and so it has to be read within the larger tradition, and that tradition's 2,000 years old.
22:02
And it's not easy for the lay Catholic to feel like they've got their head wrapped
22:07
around the totality of the Catholic tradition, and that makes them feel anxious about sharing, right?
22:13
And I'm not saying they can't share, and they should, but I mean,
22:16
that's a challenge. I mean, it really is a genuine challenge.
22:19
And so they hesitate about it, and the church doesn't always do a good job of
22:23
resourcing them, but they feel the burden, and they want to evangelize,
22:26
and they want to share their Catholic faith with their neighbors,
22:28
and they don't quite know how to get over that hump.
22:31
Well, Jesus said, you know, one of the key elements of the Catholic tradition
22:35
is our doctrine of the communion of saints, not just the saints in heaven who
22:39
pray for us, but that we collectively, as the body of Christ,
22:43
can bear one another's burdens,
22:44
share one another's obligations, and support one another in the work of being
22:48
the body of Christ, that that is integral to what it means to be a Christian,
22:52
like to cooperate with one another, to each his own gifts within the church,
22:56
as long as we're serving the same body.
22:57
You know, I don't have to single-handedly be everything. St.
23:00
Paul says each has his own gift, right?
23:02
And to some is given to be teachers and evangelists, but not to all.
23:06
Paul says this exactly, right?
23:08
Jesus also says, if you give a cup of cold water,
23:12
to one of these little ones who follow him, and he's talking about the company of the disciples,
23:16
those that were following him in his evangelistic ministry if you give a cup
23:20
of cold water you don't lose your reward like you are a participant in the teaching
23:25
ministry of the church if you support those that are teaching the faith,
23:29
that's what Jesus says that's what Jesus says so when you support Catholic Radio,
23:34
you are A, giving your cup of cold water you're participating in the work of spreading the gospel,
23:40
by making it possible for people who have given their lives to acquiring the relevant expertise.
23:48
Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't share with your neighbor. You should.
23:51
But when you support Catholic Radio, you're enabling people like Ray Grundy,
23:57
people like all the good staff apologists at Catholic Answers,
24:00
people like me, people who have spent their entire lives, people like Marcus Bader,
24:06
people who've spent their entire lives learning about the Catholic faith and
24:10
learning how to share it effectively, you're enabling them not to share with
24:13
a few people, but to share with millions.
24:17
And one of the most frequent calls I get on the radio is from a fellow by the name of Anonymous.
24:23
Anonymous. I love that guy. Who does not want their interest in Catholicism to be known.
24:30
And so what he does is he calls a national radio show and then talks on the
24:34
radio, which is like not a very anonymous forum, but nevertheless, he calls all the time.
24:39
And here's the little secret. Your non-Catholic neighbor is extremely unlikely
24:45
to walk across the lawn and knock on your door and ask you about your Catholic faith. He won't do it.
24:52
Strangely, though, he'll call me. He tells me all the time.
24:56
Catholic Radio enables us to get into the homes and really to get into the cars,
25:02
to get into the automobiles of the commuting world of America and talk to truck drivers, talk to moms,
25:09
talk to dads, talk to young people, talk to old people from every walk of life,
25:14
from every race, every religion, every corner of this nation.
25:19
And tell them things that they absolutely would not learn elsewhere.
25:24
The truths of the Catholic faith, they're not looking for them.
25:28
They're not out there seeking for them, and they're not going to go across your lawn to ask you.
25:32
And if you come knock on their door, they're going to think you're a weirdo.
25:37
But for some reason, they will flip on the radio. Maybe it's just to make fun
25:42
of us in the privacy of their car.
25:43
I mean, I've had that. I've had guys that start listening to Catholic radio
25:46
because they want to poke fun on us or criticize us.
25:48
So they want to, like, practice their chops, you know, like,
25:52
see if they can take down a Catholic apologist. Like, really oppositional.
25:56
I had a guy call my show years ago. He was a truck driver, and he listened on satellite radio.
26:01
And he called in to tell me how wrong I was and how dumb I was.
26:05
And I really appreciated his call, and I dialogued with him charitably for a
26:09
little while, and he answered some of his objections.
26:11
And I kind of left him quizzical. A couple weeks later, he calls back.
26:14
He says, well, I got some more for you. He hits me with some more objections.
26:17
And again, he's trying to take me down. Mm-hmm. And I answered his objections.
26:22
And this happened a couple of times. And then gradually, he shifted from antagonism to interest.
26:29
And then he shifted from interest to, to like, a kind of compelling eagerness.
26:36
And then he called us one day and said, I've made the decision to become Catholic.
26:40
And he did he became Catholic and it started out.
26:44
With a desire to humiliate me and put me in my place.
26:48
And it ended with him becoming Catholic. And it's not just my show,
26:52
right? And that happens far more often than you think.
26:56
Now, I mean, seriously, seriously, how many times has that happened to you in
27:01
your daily life, not on Catholic radio?
27:04
I bet the answer to that question is none for most people.
27:08
Most people don't have the experience of a Protestant friend coming up and saying,
27:13
hey, I'm going to humiliate you and your Catholic faith and tell you all the reasons you're wrong.
27:17
They're not going to start that conversation because the medium doesn't allow for it.
27:23
The context doesn't allow for it. But I invite it, and the medium of radio creates
27:29
that possibility to make people comfortable doing that.
27:32
And then think of the millions of people that are listening to the conversation,
27:37
the other truck drivers and the moms and the dads that aren't making the call
27:41
but are cheering that guy on in the hopes that he'll take me down.
27:45
And they're listening to my answers.
27:47
All those people are being influenced to become Catholic.
27:52
And every day and every week and every year, we get thousands of testimonies
27:57
from people just like that who had no interest in Catholicism,
28:01
who are suddenly signing up for RCIA.
28:04
You know, this last year, 2025, was a bumper crop for Catholic converts around
28:11
the world, not just in America, around the world.
28:15
And do you know what made the difference?
28:18
You know what made the difference? I'll tell you what made the difference.
28:20
And I know it's particularly about France, because I've done the research on
28:24
France. France is of particular interest to me.
28:26
You know, France used to be the most Christian nation.
28:29
Now it's the most secular nation. It's one of the most modernistic and secular
28:33
nations on the planet. Now, mass attendance is very, very low, okay?
28:37
But they had a bumper crop of RCIA candidates, and I was actually speaking to
28:42
a Frenchman just a few days ago who works in France in Catholic social media,
28:47
and he confirmed to me, what I've also read in studies,
28:51
that the RCIA candidates in France this last year, 60% of them were there because
28:59
they had encountered Catholicism in Catholic social media.
29:04
So the role of media, what we're doing, right, in actually bringing people to
29:11
Catholicism is measurable and enormous.
29:16
So if you want to use your donation dollars to support evangelism,
29:21
I literally do not think you can find a more efficient use for your money than
29:27
to support the work of Catholic Radio.
29:28
And let me tell you something about supporting your local Catholic affiliate.
29:32
If you do not support your local Catholic affiliate, EWT programming cannot
29:37
get in your neighbor's car.
29:40
Because that's how they find it. They spin the dial and they pick up the local
29:43
station and they start listening.
29:46
So it is imperative for the model to work that you support the local Catholic
29:51
affiliate radio station.
29:53
Okay, and I'm going to pause you right there because we need to check in with
29:58
those who support Catholic Spirit Radio by checking in with our sponsors.
30:02
My name's Teresa Chambers.
30:03
We're interviewing Dr. David Andrews from Call to Communion,
30:07
and we will be right back. You're listening to Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
30:12
Catholic Spirit Radio invites everyone for an outdoor rosary and song event
30:17
on Tuesday, October 7th, which is the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary.
30:21
The event parking lot opens at 6 p.m. with refreshments, fellowship,
30:25
and tours of the radio station.
30:26
The rosary begins at 7 p.m.
30:29
With Marian songs interspersed throughout the prayers.
30:32
Bring your rosary lawn chair family and friends to 108 Boykins Place in Normal.
30:37
Let's pray and sing for Mary's intercession for peace and to unite our nation under God.
30:42
It's time again for the Rosary Rally. The American Needs Phantom of Rosary Rally
30:46
is scheduled for Saturday, October 11th.
30:48
Over 22,000 Rosary Rallies will pray for our nation.
30:52
Join us on October 11th on Center and Chestnut Streets in Bloomington.
30:56
Prayers begin at noon. Miracles, miracles, miracles.
30:59
Yes, with God, all things are possible.
31:03
How can we not be astounded when we think of the miracles told in the Bible,
31:08
the Eucharistic miracle that happens on the altar during the consecration at
31:12
every Mass, and the miracles that transform and save people we know?
31:16
Hi, this is Debbie Giorgiani from EWTN. The topic of miracles is so stirring
31:21
that we chose that theme for the Catholic Spirit Radio Network's Fall Appeal
31:26
this October 29th through the 31st.
31:29
When you listen, your hearts and minds will be awed by the facts and real stories of miracles.
31:35
We've invited extraordinary guests to join us. You won't want to miss a single
31:40
one, October 29th through the 31st, exclusively on this radio station.
31:45
As you listen, I know that your appreciation of the value of Catholic Spirit
31:50
Radio will be reaffirmed.
31:52
This network is a tremendous asset, with 12 stations reaching communities like
31:56
yours throughout Illinois and Wisconsin.
31:59
Catholic Spirit Radio is a
32:00
listener-supported nonprofit, so your donations are what make it possible.
32:05
Please support this radio station in a big way. Mail them a fall appeal check.
32:11
Call during the broadcasts, or go online and make a donation.
32:14
During these days, every donor gets a special thank you gift,
32:18
and we promise to pray for a miracle or need just for you.
32:22
On top of that, we have hourly food gift cards to give away,
32:26
and maybe you'll become the owner of one of the two grand giveaways.
32:29
We're excited to share this time with you. Here are the dates again,
32:33
October 29th through the 31st, 7 a.m.
32:37
To 6 p.m. Miracles with God, all things are possible.
32:42
Tune into our radio station or watch the live feed on your Facebook page.
32:46
Hear facts and stories about miracles and feel the excitement as we join together
32:51
to support the Catholic Spirit Radio Network and its evangelization mission. God bless you.
33:01
We are back. Thank you for listening to Catholic Spirit Radio.
33:05
This is Catholic Conversations, and I am Teresa Chambers.
33:10
With me on the phone is Dr. David Anders, the host of Called the Communion on
33:15
EWTN, Monday through Friday from 1 to 2 p.m.
33:18
We've been checking in. We've learned a lot about your history.
33:21
We know that you grew up just five miles from EWTN as a Protestant.
33:26
And now we're going to switch gears a little bit, and we're going to talk a
33:30
little bit more about that evangelization over the airwaves with Catholic Radio.
33:34
How can your donation make a difference?
33:38
Yeah, thank you so much. So when you donate to Spirit Radio,
33:42
what you enable them to do, first of all, is keep the signal on the air.
33:46
Let me tell you about the importance of that.
33:48
So I mentioned at the beginning of the show that when I was still Protestant
33:53
and on the fence about becoming Catholic, I saw a bumper sticker.
33:57
Advertising the local Catholic affiliate radio station.
34:00
And I tuned in and listened, and that was a major milestone in my becoming Catholic.
34:05
Well, I listened to that same station for a while. I continued to listen after I became Catholic.
34:09
And the station manager at that time was a man named John Martin Noni,
34:12
whose name your audience might know because he's also been a frequent guest
34:16
on EWTN and a host and has his own apologetics ministry.
34:20
So he's kind of a well-known figure. But he was managing the local Catholic radio station.
34:25
And I tuned in one day, And I heard John come across the broadcast,
34:29
and he said, you know, I need y'all to support the radio station and send in
34:32
donations because we're not going to be able to stay on the air if you don't support us.
34:36
And, you know, I had grown up
34:37
hearing, you know, public radio and public television make fund appeals.
34:41
And you know what? I never did. I never gave money. And public radio never went off the air.
34:46
And so I guess unconsciously grown accustomed to the idea that when radio stations
34:51
ask for money, I don't give, and they stay on the air.
34:54
And I keep listening, and I don't have to worry about paying for it.
34:57
Well, you know, John kept this up for a couple of weeks, you know,
35:00
really urging people, hey, we're in dire straits. We need money if you don't
35:03
pay for us. We can't stay on the air.
35:05
And then one day I tuned in and I got static.
35:09
And the reason why is they got off the air. It didn't receive the support it
35:13
needed. And they quit broadcasting.
35:16
And I was devastated because this had become my lifeline. I had become quite
35:19
dependent on Catholic Radio to teach me about the faith and to grow in my newfound
35:23
love for the church. And it went away.
35:26
You know, Mother Angelica, when she was alive, she gave a number of interviews
35:31
to Raymond Arroyo, who wrote her biography and the story of EWTN.
35:34
And in that book that he wrote about her, he asked her a question.
35:37
He said, Mother, what do you think will become of EWTN?
35:41
And her answer shocked me when I read it. It was so realistic.
35:45
She said to Raymond, she said, well, you know, nothing lasts forever.
35:49
Nothing lasts forever. She did not take for granted that EWTN would last forever.
35:55
And I always share with people, and I say, don't take your local radio station for granted.
36:01
They go off the air. And I've seen it happen. You know, I have some relatives that live in Maine.
36:08
And one of my relatives in Maine was a frequent listener to my program on a
36:11
Catholic affiliate radio station in Maine.
36:14
And one day my cousin called me and said, hey, why did they take you off the air?
36:18
I didn't know they took me off the air. And I went and looked into it.
36:21
I found out that that local Catholic radio station that had been carrying EWTN
36:26
had gone away, had gone away, had come out under a new owner and new business model.
36:32
And I've seen that happen to other stations. Now, I should add,
36:37
new EWTN stations are coming online all the time.
36:39
And we continue to grow, and we've got over 500 stations nationwide.
36:46
But don't be led astray by survivorship bias. And along the way, we've lost a lot.
36:50
And in some of those markets where we went away we haven't come back,
36:55
and so that's a market that used to have EWHN Catholic Radio that no longer
36:59
has it because they couldn't secure the money they needed to keep it on the air,
37:03
so don't take for granted that Spirit Radio will be there tomorrow if you don't
37:08
support the ministry they won't be and then EWHN programming will not be in your community.
37:14
Right. And I think that is a good reminder for everyone to share,
37:18
you know, their favorite program that they listen to on Catholic radio and share
37:25
the links on social media, share them on your page,
37:28
send them privately to your friends.
37:31
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, because I just recently had my sister-in-law came
37:37
into the church this spring and she listens to Catholic radio all the time.
37:42
And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I was helping with fun
37:46
drives doing live radio, and I was excited. So I was telling all my family and
37:51
friends, well, look at that.
37:53
I got one strike on me for getting one plus one into Catholicism. So it works.
37:59
That little bit works. It absolutely does. It absolutely does. It absolutely does.
38:03
So we do have lots of options for radio, but Catholic radio is the truth.
38:09
And that's what makes it so good.
38:12
How do we decipher the mistruths that are on secular radio?
38:17
How do we balance those habits of listening? Well, sure.
38:21
So, you know, one of the reasons that people tune into EWTN and Catholic Radio
38:27
Programming is because it speaks to realities in their life that the other radio
38:34
stations don't speak to.
38:35
And as you know, the form of radio that has become dominant nationwide is the
38:43
secular political talk show.
38:46
It's cheap to produce, they're highly popular, and they're everywhere.
38:52
And there's a feature of those that, by and large, I mean, 99.9% of them proceed
39:00
by supporting a particular political ideology.
39:04
The host is very overt about it, and he says, you know, I'm a team player,
39:07
this is my team, I want my team to win.
39:09
Here's my ideology, and I want the other side to lose.
39:12
Right. And that kind of programming really appeals to an element,
39:19
a really embedded element of human personality, which is tribalism.
39:24
Right. We have a natural inbred tendency to want to take sides and to support
39:30
our side and to see the other side go down.
39:33
You know, there's a social psychologist named Jonathan Haidt who wrote a book
39:37
called The Righteous Mind about disagreements in religion and politics.
39:41
And he cites some studies showing that the bias to tribalism is so deep that
39:49
if you take children and you divide them into groups randomly,
39:53
so there's no principle of division,
39:54
it's just a random division, and assign them to teams,
39:57
that after a short period of time, the members of the teams will begin to regard
40:01
the other team as morally inferior,
40:04
morally inferior, and their own team is superior.
40:07
And so it's very pernicious, right?
40:11
That tendency to ideological division is very pernicious. As we see in recent
40:16
political events, like the assassination of Charlie Kirk, for example,
40:19
that was facilitated by deep ideological division and my side bias.
40:26
And in the depths of our heart, I believe, this makes us uncomfortable and we
40:33
know that there's something wrong with that.
40:35
We know that there's something wrong with demonizing your ideological opponent
40:38
and wanting to tear them down.
40:40
And at the heart of the gospel is a scandal.
40:44
Paul said it was a scandal. It was a surprising doctrine that he said had been
40:50
hidden from the beginning of time and only now revealed to God's apostles and
40:54
prophets. and it is this.
40:56
It was that Gentiles are heirs with Jews of the promises of Abraham and that
41:02
the ethnic division that ran through the heart of ancient civilization that
41:06
defined the my side bias of the day was no more.
41:09
And in Christ, there was no male, there was no female, there was no Jew,
41:13
there was no Greek, there was no slave, there was no free.
41:15
And the Catholic Church teaches that Catholic social doctrine,
41:20
Catholic morality, is not right-wing, is not left-wing, is not centrist.
41:26
In fact, it's not to be found anywhere on the existing continuum of political
41:31
bias because it speaks to human realities, perennial realities,
41:36
spiritual realities of the moral order and not of the political sphere.
41:41
And, you know, Jesus said, do not take the splinter out of your neighbor's eye
41:48
until you take the log out of your own.
41:50
And one of the reasons, I think, that we're so quick to want to join teams and
41:54
take down the other guy is that we know that there's something wrong with us
41:58
internally and we don't want to deal with it. It's just easier to criticize our neighbor.
42:02
And so the message of the Catholic faith gives us a way, a constructive way,
42:06
not a discouraging way, to finally focus our attention on what we need most,
42:10
not defeating my neighbor in political or ideological warfare,
42:14
but looking to my own spiritual needs and asking, where are the biases in me?
42:19
Where is the self-deception? Where are the self-destructive habits that I have,
42:24
that I can't seem to get free of?
42:26
And the gospel promises a solution to the problem of me, right?
42:30
St. Paul says, in my mind is one law that wants to do the good.
42:34
And my flesh does another lot work in my members and I'm wretched because I'm
42:37
divided against myself.
42:39
Who will rescue me from this body of death?
42:41
And then he gives the answer, thanks be to God through Christ Jesus our Lord.
42:45
Right, because what's impossible for man is possible with God.
42:47
The heart of Catholic Radio is the presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ,
42:51
which is the promise of transformative grace for me so that I can change the
42:56
world, not through political conquest, but by being a light,
43:00
by changing my character so that I come to do what Jesus said and that is to even love my enemies.
43:07
That's a message that you do not hear on the right, on the left,
43:12
or anywhere on secular media. What you hear instead is, my side is right,
43:19
their side is wrong, defeat the enemy.
43:22
The Catholic Church says, we're all wrong, we all need grace,
43:27
forgive the enemy, heal your soul.
43:30
I agree. I think that that's very true and as we head into the coming holidays
43:37
that are going to be soon it's time for everyone to reflect and,
43:43
grow and get closer to their faith and get closer to God.
43:47
Amen. And radio is one great way that we accomplish this, and we're so thankful
43:53
to have had you to share your story with us today.
43:57
I know you have one book, and I can't remember the name, but please tell us
44:01
about your current projects and what you have already done.
44:05
Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. So I do have a book that
44:09
came out in 2018. The title of the book is The Catholic Church Saved My Marriage.
44:13
And a while back, EW10 began asking me for a book, and I started to write a
44:17
standard apologetics text, and my wife said to me, no, no, no,
44:20
no, no, no, you need to tell the story of our marriage.
44:23
And so she was right, and I rewrote the text, and it's not a standard marriage book.
44:27
It's not just a book about our marriage, and it's not just a book about,
44:30
you know, how to have a good marriage.
44:32
It's really a story of how becoming Catholic and the theology and the doctrine
44:36
and the practice of the Catholic Church affected me in my most intimate relationship,
44:42
namely my marriage and family.
44:44
And so you learn a lot about Catholic doctrine. You learn a lot about Catholic theology.
44:48
You learn a lot about the doctrine of marriage. And the goal of it was to show
44:52
that Catholic faith, Catholic practice, and the grace of God can have a meaningful
44:57
impact on you in the most important relationships of your life.
45:00
And so that book is The Catholic Church Saved My Marriage.
45:03
I'm working on another manuscript right now, which is going to be on the Catholic
45:05
understanding of relationship to Christ as distinct from what some other traditions
45:09
might say about relationship to Jesus.
45:11
And I also have a few other things going on. I am a Catholic life coach.
45:16
And so if you want to have these kind of conversations with me one-on-one,
45:19
you can contact me at drdavidandrews.com, drdavidandrews.com for consultation.
45:25
And I do a lot of public speaking around the country. So if you want to have
45:28
me come out to talk to your parish or for your fundraiser or even,
45:32
you know, to your friends and family, you can contact me again at drdavidhanders.com
45:36
and I'll come speak to your group.
45:38
Great. And, you know, you talked earlier, you quoted Matthew 19,
45:42
verse 26, which is our theme for our fall appeal.
45:46
Jesus looked at them and said to them, with men, this is impossible,
45:51
but with God, all things are possible.
45:53
And that's the theme for our fall appeal, which is coming up on October 29th,
45:58
30th and 31st from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m.
46:02
Our goal is to raise $55,000 as a part of our $150,000 annual budget.
46:07
We are super excited to have had this time with you, Dr.
46:13
Andrews. We've got a few minutes left. What is your hope for 2026?
46:18
Well, what is my hope for 2026? You know, I personally, my hope for 2026 is
46:26
that I can live with gratitude each individual day and take each day as it comes, right?
46:33
You know, the scriptures say that we should worry about today and tomorrow has
46:37
enough trouble of its own.
46:38
No one knows the future. I can't predict what's going to happen in 26.
46:42
I don't know if the stock market's going to go up or down. I don't know if the
46:44
wars are going to conclude or get worse. I don't know any of that stuff, right?
46:48
What I know is that there's sufficient grace for me today to live my vocation
46:53
generously and charitably.
46:55
And I pray that I and everyone can do just that.
46:58
So that's my hope for 2026, that we can leave each day in the grace of God with
47:03
gratitude and forgiveness for ourselves and others and kindness to our neighbors.
47:07
Well, thank you very much, Dr. Andrews. Your show, Called to Communion,
47:11
is on EWTN Monday through Friday from 1 to 2 on Catholic Spirit Radio.
47:17
My name is Teresa Chambers. I have been your host. Thank you very much for joining us.
47:22
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You've been listening to Catholic
47:26
Conversations. Download our podcasts at catholicspiritradio.com.