Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E134: Dating Advice That Actually Works w/ Rachel Hoover Canto

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E134: Dating Advice That Actually Works w/ Rachel Hoover Canto · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
You were telling me about a girl that sent you an e-mail shortly
0:02
after your book came out saying that she hadn't gotten asked out
0:05
for six months, and then after she read your book and started
0:09
to put some of your recommendations into action, she
0:12
got asked out like 5 times. Yes.
0:15
Hey guys, welcome back to the Lila Rose podcast.
0:17
We are in a knee set. I hope you guys like it.
0:19
We've been working really hard on this and there's going to be
0:21
a lot more that we're going to be putting on the walls that are
0:23
special things. So keep watching the set evolve,
0:25
but I hope you guys like it. Today we're going to sit down
0:28
with Rachel Hoover Canto. I just read her book and I was
0:31
blown away. Actually my brother-in-law who
0:34
is dating women right now and trying to find his future wife.
0:37
He told me about this book and he said this is the best dating
0:40
book I've ever read. This book by Rachel Hoover Canto
0:43
and I read it and I said you're right.
0:46
This is the best dating book that I've ever read too.
0:49
And I've read a lot of them when I was in my 20s trying to find
0:51
my husband. I feel like meeting, dating and
0:54
marrying my husband Joe was like getting the last chopper out of
0:57
Nam. I'm so glad that we got married
1:00
and I feel so bad for a lot of people today that are trying to
1:03
find the one because it's really hard out there in the dating
1:06
world. This episode is for you.
1:08
I think Rachel does a phenomenal job in making it really
1:11
practical and even easy to take steps to find somebody, discern
1:16
whether or not they are the one. Get them to ask you out if
1:19
you're the woman actually hopefully get married one day.
1:23
She lays it all out in this awesome book which is called
1:26
Pretty Good Catholic. How to find, Date and Marry
1:28
Someone who Shares Your Faith. Spoiler alert, you don't have to
1:31
be Catholic. You can be Christian or anybody
1:34
and this book is going to help you.
1:35
Also, if you are about to turn this off because you are already
1:38
married or maybe you're dating someone happily and you don't
1:42
need to keep dating. You feel you have a good
1:44
boyfriend or girlfriend and you're like I don't need this
1:46
advice. Don't do that.
1:48
Keep listening. This advice will help you help
1:50
other people and don't forget. To share this episode with a
1:53
friend, All right, Rachel Hoover Canto.
1:56
Thanks for joining the podcast. Thanks so much for having me.
1:59
You are the first person officially on this set, so thank
2:01
you for coming out and being here for that.
2:04
I love the set, it's beautiful. Good, good, and you came all the
2:07
way in from. Nashville, TN.
2:09
Nice, How's that out there? It's good.
2:12
It is much muggier there than here, so I'm kind of enjoying
2:15
the dry heat and walking around outside.
2:17
That's nice. Good.
2:19
Well, I'm really glad you're here because my brother-in-law
2:21
told me about you. So it was the first time meeting
2:23
you and he was like, this is the best book.
2:25
He's single, he's dating, he's trying to find his wife.
2:28
And he said that your book, which just came out, is the best
2:30
book that he has ever read on dating.
2:32
And he's read a lot of books. That is high praise, but that's
2:36
exactly what I was hoping for. I was writing it from this
2:38
perspective of trying to write the book that I wish I had had
2:43
about 10 years ago when I was just starting to date.
2:45
And from the feedback from readers so far, it seems like I
2:48
succeeded for a lot of people. So praise be to God.
2:51
Awesome. Well, and I read it and I
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thought he's right because I've also, and in my 20s, I read all
2:55
the dating books and I thought you nailed it again and again
2:58
and again with just the right advice that people need to hear.
3:01
So I'm very excited for this conversation.
3:04
I'm excited too. All right, so before we sat
3:06
down, you were telling me about a girl that sent you an e-mail
3:08
shortly after your book came out saying that she hadn't gotten
3:11
asked out for six months. And then after she read your
3:14
book and started to put some of your recommendations into
3:18
action, she got asked out like 5 times.
3:21
Yes, she's actually the leader of a young adult group close to
3:25
my hometown. And she wanted to have me come
3:26
speak. And she was telling me on the
3:28
phone how this book had already impacted her life.
3:31
She just read it. She really wanted to bring it to
3:33
more people. And I was blown away by that
3:36
testimonial that it just helped her change her mindset that much
3:39
that she was able to kind of signal to these men who may have
3:43
been kind of waiting in the wings anyway, but didn't know if
3:45
she was open. And she was.
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And all of a sudden she was getting all these dates.
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So it was a really good witness to just the power of changing
3:54
your mindset a little bit and your behavior toward other
3:57
people. And sometimes that's all it
3:58
takes to kind of drop the hanky used to be the old fashioned
4:01
phrase, but just let guys know that if they asked you out, you
4:04
wouldn't shut them down. You know, they can be a little
4:06
afraid of rejection naturally. And so that was that was just
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really good to hear that she was able to to kind of get that
4:13
first step started. All right, so your book, you
4:16
give advice to both men and women.
4:17
So it's not like it's just for women or just for men, but what
4:20
advice was it that she got that helped her change her mindset,
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as you say, to move from not being asked out for six months
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to having five dates lined up? I recommend a lot of just very
4:33
subtle changes. If you're going about your daily
4:35
life, you're probably running into people all the time.
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But we have this mentality now that we're not supposed to talk
4:42
to strangers and that we're not supposed to just kind of smile
4:45
at people and make eye contact and make it obvious if we're
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interested in someone, I think. And so I, I just recommend not,
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I mean partly going to new places that maybe you aren't
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normally going to, meeting new people, getting those numbers
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up, so to speak, but also everywhere you go, just having a
5:05
maybe a challenge for yourself. I'm not just going to go here
5:08
and kind of sit in the corner with my friends and ignore
5:10
everyone, but I'm going to go and actively try to meet at
5:14
least one new person of the opposite sex and just have a
5:16
nice conversation. And maybe it goes nowhere, but
5:18
maybe it does. So I think things like that,
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even just practicing by, you know, chatting with your cashier
5:25
a little bit. How's your day going?
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You know, just sort of politeness, you know, being a
5:30
little extra friendly, I think can help us get over some of
5:33
that social anxiety. And then for women in
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particular, when you are actually interested in someone,
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you have to take that friendliness level and just dial
5:43
it up to 11 and go way beyond what you think is a normal
5:47
amount of eye contact or a normal amount of, you know,
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smiling and laughing. I mean, not not to be fake at
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all, but to just make sure you're not holding back or
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holding in your interest. Let it show on your face and in
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your body language because men really need those strong hints
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to know that the door is open and they can come knocking and
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they could ask you out. And also I think we have a lot
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of fear sometimes of just taking that initial step because we
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don't know enough about the person.
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I don't know if this is someone I would really want to marry or
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date long term. And I say that's exactly what a
6:21
first date is for. So being as open as possible to
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1st dates is a really good idea so that then you know something
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about the person and you can decide if you want a second date
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and 1/3 date and just take it one step at a time.
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OK, there's a lot already that you said that I think is very
6:36
useful information, but I want to deep dive a little more and
6:39
then I want to actually go through.
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This is your book right here, Rachel, and we're going to link
6:43
it in the episode description so everybody can get access to this
6:46
special book, which is very valuable.
6:49
And there's 11 chapters and we're going to go through some
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of these key chapters with core advice.
6:53
But I wanted to start with the advice you were just giving
6:55
about how to even up your lead generation, so to speak, in the
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opportunities to go on date so you can start that funnel
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process of meeting people. And then that's the only kind of
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pathway to ultimately, hopefully getting married one day.
7:08
A lot of people want to do that. Highly recommend marriage, by
7:10
the way. But you said something about as
7:13
the woman, the importance of showing interest and you don't
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have to want to marry them yet. Just like, is this someone that
7:21
you could potentially be interested in?
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So don't be so picky that it has to be, you know, the perfect
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man, 6 foot 2. And you know of all these
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statistics already. Yeah, all of that.
7:31
Right. But you, you you said something
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about being extra friendly and having this, you know, not I
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think you said ratchet up past 10.
7:40
What was the language? Turn it.
7:41
Up to 11. Turn it up to.
7:42
Whatever, whatever you look like, 'cause I think maybe girls
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listen there like, OK, some girls maybe are like used to,
7:47
they can be flirty, they're comfortable with that.
7:49
But basically you're saying to be flirty in an appropriate way,
7:52
or friendly is the better word. What does that actually look?
7:55
Like. It's a little different for each
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person has to go with your personality.
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I don't want to advocate doing something really regimented that
8:02
comes across fake, but I think for especially people who tend
8:06
toward being a little shy, sometimes having some very
8:10
concrete things that you can remind yourself to do is
8:13
helpful. So things like when you're
8:15
having a conversation, actually like turning your entire body
8:18
toward the person, including your feet.
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That's a way to signal I'm interested in this conversation
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and would like to stay in it. I'm not trying to run away, but
8:25
that's something. I mean, I subconsciously will
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end up kind of turned outward toward the room or something or
8:30
not, you know, looking at someone in the eye and eye
8:33
contact. I actually know a couple who met
8:36
in a grocery store parking lot and now they're married happily.
8:41
After reading this book well. The way it happened was that she
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saw this cute guy across the parking lot and just thought,
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I'm going to make eye contact with him just a little longer
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than his normal with a random stranger and just see what
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happens. And he noticed and he walked
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over and started a conversation and that's all it took.
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So if you think you're making enough eye contact for a normal
9:03
conversation, just had a little more and that shows you're
9:07
really interested in this person.
9:08
You're really focused on them. I always hear about some of the
9:13
Saints, like Mother Teresa, for example, was known for making
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everyone she met feel like the only person in the universe
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while she was having that conversation.
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And there's a matchmaker I know, her name's Cristina Pineda.
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She uses that same advice for dating.
9:27
Again, not to be artificial. It's part of loving your
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neighbor in a way to just focus on someone.
9:31
But it's also really helpful for showing a man that you might be
9:34
interested in him. You know, just make him feel
9:36
like you're all your attention is on him for that moment.
9:39
And then of course, if you end up not being interested, you can
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direct your attention elsewhere. You know, it's not a permanent
9:44
decision to to just kind of focus in on his face for a
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little while. I think laughing is great.
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I think a lot of men really feel affirmed when their jokes are
9:53
funny. You know, that helps.
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And then even depending on the situation, how well do you know
9:59
this person and find him trustworthy, being able to, you
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know, physically like lean a little bit closer to him if
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you're sitting close together, things like that can kind of
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signal interest as well. So those are some really
10:10
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10:13
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10:16
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checkout for. Someone listening right now is
11:48
like, OK, that all sounds good, but I'm afraid state of
11:50
rejection. That guy, I have a huge crush on
11:53
him. Or maybe they meet a guy and
11:54
they're super attracted to him, but they're like, I don't know
11:56
if he'd be interested in me. How do they how do you, how
11:59
would you navigate that? What advice would you give?
12:02
It's hard. I mean, rejection is always
12:04
really painful. And I think often times we focus
12:07
on the pain of rejection with men because if they're the ones
12:09
doing the asking out, then they're the ones getting a
12:11
really flat no or getting ghosted.
12:14
And maybe a little more often, but you can be rejected in a
12:17
more subtle way. Or maybe maybe the guy does just
12:19
say to you, I'm not interested. And that's really, yeah.
12:24
Stop laughing. With me, yeah.
12:26
But I think I say in there, I, I, I'm saying it more to the
12:31
men, but it goes for women too. I say somewhere in the book it
12:34
only takes one yes to make all the Nos worth it.
12:37
So even if 100 people have rejected you, so one right
12:41
person who comes along who ends up being your spouse and you
12:44
have this wonderful happy life together, you will look at all
12:47
those rejections ultimately as gifts a little bit like when we
12:50
get to heaven, we hope we get to sort of see all of our past
12:54
sins, mistakes, suffering as completely redeemed in Christ.
12:57
It's it's a little taste of that, I think, here on this
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earth. I mean, I went through some
13:02
rough breakups before marrying my husband.
13:04
And now I'm so glad that all those guys broke up with me
13:07
because it means that I got to marry him and I'm so happy with
13:10
him and he's exactly the right person for me.
13:13
So I want to offer that as hope, sort of light at the end of the
13:15
tunnel. It's all going to be worth it in
13:17
the end. But if we're not willing to take
13:19
risk of rejection, then we're never going to risk the yes.
13:24
In a sense, you know you have to give give a chance in both ways
13:27
and just hope for the right outcome.
13:31
One more question on that point. If you're a woman and you're
13:33
thinking, OK, sure, this sounds nice, but I don't want to pursue
13:36
a man I'm not. I want him to pursue me.
13:38
I don't want to be the one pursuing.
13:40
What mindset would you encourage her to have that these gestures
13:44
she's making or her engaging someone in conversation or even
13:47
being the first one to make eye contact, that that's actually
13:50
not pursuing? That is merely being open and
13:53
creating space for someone to pursue.
13:55
Yes, I would say I heard it from the men that I talked to for
13:59
this book that they usually need a lot more hinting than we think
14:05
they do. They wish that more women,
14:08
especially in the Christian and Catholic world, would show their
14:12
interest so that they know that she's open to pursuit.
14:14
I think a lot of them have been kind of conditioned to think
14:18
that they they might come off as creepy if they start pursuing a
14:21
woman who's not interested. She might even get angry.
14:24
I hear stories of men, you know, all the time they just try to
14:28
tell someone she looks nice. Or actually, a man told me once,
14:32
I feel like I can't even tell a girl that she looks nice these
14:34
days because that could be considered sexual harassment,
14:37
which is not true. It's not sexual harassment to
14:39
compliment a woman on, you know, your outfit is so nice today.
14:42
That's perfectly fine. But I understand why men have
14:45
gotten a little fearful of doing some of those things that we
14:48
would actually like them to do. So there's just a lot of ways on
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both sides. We need to meet each other in
14:54
the middle a little more. And I think pursuit is, can I
14:59
have your number? Can I take you out on a date?
15:01
It's those very concrete things. I do advocate for leaving that
15:04
to men. I think everything just tends to
15:05
go better if the man who's really very interested is
15:08
willing to kind of put skin in the game and take the direct
15:11
approach. But even my husband told me the
15:14
first few times he interacted with me, he was interested, but
15:16
he was not getting good signals from me at all.
15:19
And so he didn't do anything direct until he had more of an
15:22
opening. And he later told me he just got
15:24
to give me something. I'm not.
15:26
I'm not going to barge in there and try to force it.
15:29
I'm going to wait till I see some indication that I might get
15:32
a yes. And I think that's true of most
15:34
men. So you're not pursuing just by
15:37
showing that there is a door there to be knocked on, so to
15:40
speak. It's just the very, very initial
15:43
foundation work that is perfectly fine for both men and
15:46
women to participate in. And let's say you're opening
15:49
this door nice and wide frequently with this guy that
15:51
you have a crush on. The point there though would be
15:53
if he's not asking then go find someone else.
15:57
Yeah, eventually, I think if you've really, really sent a lot
16:02
of strong signals that could not possibly be mistaken, maybe
16:07
stronger than you thought you needed to send initially.
16:10
I do think eventually it's true that a man who is interested and
16:14
ready for a relationship will pursue.
16:16
Sometimes he might be kind of interested, he might even be
16:18
kind of flirting back, but he's just not in a position in his
16:20
life where he's ready to start dating someone.
16:23
It could be financial reasons. It could be he's in school or
16:27
starting a new career or something.
16:29
Whatever it is, there's some reason why he's not taking the
16:32
bait. And so just focusing your
16:35
energies elsewhere, you know? Yeah, and this is part of why I
16:39
think it's good to not necessarily restrict yourself to
16:43
being so focused on just one person and getting too hung up
16:45
on a crush where nothing has happened yet.
16:48
It can be really hard. You know, we have feelings we
16:50
can't always control, but still making sure even if you have
16:54
those feelings, you're willing to meet other people and just
16:56
kind of mingle in different social circles and make sure the
17:00
the door is open for for anyone who might actually be ready and
17:03
interested to start pursuing. It's a good idea.
17:05
And then what about advice on the flip side for men?
17:08
So you this is good advice for what women can do to kind of up
17:11
the opportunities to go on 1st dates and start getting to know
17:14
different people to maximize the potential of getting married.
17:18
What can men do? Ultimately, they should really
17:22
be probably asking more women out, which does take a lot of
17:26
courage. It's going to cause some
17:28
rejections. It's going to cause some
17:30
anxieties and pain. And I, I thank the men out there
17:34
for going through that for us most of the time.
17:36
I'd really appreciate it. But I think a lot of women find
17:39
it very, very attractive when the man is willing to take a
17:43
little risk and take the direct approach and he has the
17:45
confidence to pursue. So I would say men should be
17:51
paying attention to those signals and also just whether or
17:54
not you think you're getting the right signals.
17:55
If you're really interested in women, just go for it.
17:57
And it doesn't have to be any really big deal.
17:59
You don't have to profess your undying love.
18:02
You know, you really shouldn't do that.
18:03
Just say I'm really enjoying getting to know you.
18:06
Can I take you out to coffee sometime or lunch, ice cream,
18:10
whatever, you know, fill in the blank some fun activity that's
18:12
kind of light hearted just as a starting point.
18:15
And I think having something really specific like that, like,
18:19
may I take you to dinner is, is sort of time boxed.
18:21
You're not saying, will you be my girlfriend right out the
18:24
gate? That might intimidate her.
18:25
You're just saying, can I, can I treat you to something small to
18:28
sort of get us started, get to know each other a little bit
18:30
better. And I think from what I hear
18:33
from women is that they wish that would happen to them more.
18:35
They wish more guys would just do that.
18:37
And then they can give him a chance.
18:39
And then both parties can just see how it goes.
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20:26
I've heard some guys complain that they have tried to pursue
20:30
women and they just get shut down or they are excused of
20:33
being creepy or pursuing too hard.
20:36
I mean, when I hear that, it makes me sad because whoever is
20:39
accusing them of that, maybe he wasn't for you, but he's might
20:43
be for the next girl. So give him a give him a break.
20:45
Like just tell him. And that's why like I remember
20:48
in my 20s when I was dating, I would always say thank you so
20:50
much for honoring me by asking me, even if I'm not interested,
20:53
I want to go out with you. Like it was truly honoring to do
20:56
that. So I think it's also etiquette
20:58
for women. What would you say though to the
21:00
guy who's listening is like, I'm I'm discouraged or?
21:04
Yeah, again, the one yes, someday might make all the notes
21:08
worth it. But I would also say this is
21:11
some tough feedback that sometimes not everyone wants to
21:13
hear. But the number one complaint I
21:15
heard from Catholic women about Catholic men is that a lot of
21:18
them come across as just kind of awkward and boring, like they
21:23
don't have a lot of personality. And some of those?
21:25
Same women priesthood didn't work out.
21:27
I guess I'm going to get married now, right?
21:29
And some of those same women said, I've tried dating non
21:32
Catholic guys who you know are a lot more fun and just
21:35
interesting to talk to. But I I do want someone who
21:37
shares my faith and values. So how do I navigate this?
21:39
Do I really have to choose between the two?
21:41
So I think it's not necessarily that those guys are creepy or
21:46
boring or anything, it's just that sometimes the multi, the
21:51
the multiple sides of their personalities aren't just coming
21:54
out comfortably in social interaction somehow.
21:56
So it takes some practice. Same advice that I mentioned
22:00
earlier for the women as you're just going about your day, you
22:02
know, chat a little bit with the cashier in just a friendly way,
22:05
not just people you're interested in.
22:07
You know, you can get some practice with just making
22:10
conversation easily, but also look at your life and see
22:14
whether it's well-rounded, See whether you are pursuing
22:17
everything that God might be calling you to do, building up
22:20
the talents that God has given you.
22:23
How's your spiritual life? How's your physical life?
22:25
So are you getting some form of exercise?
22:27
And not just for health, but it's good for your personality
22:29
too. If you go play, pick up sports
22:31
or take dancing classes or something like that where you
22:33
could also meet other people. Do you have a social life that
22:36
isn't just, I'm trying to date women, But you know, this goes
22:40
both ways too. There are women who just are so
22:42
focused on dating that it becomes their whole personality.
22:45
That's not good either, you know, So I think having just
22:47
multiple interests that aren't just, I go to church on Sunday
22:51
and then I go to work during the week and then maybe I go to
22:54
young adult Bible study or something and try to meet people
22:57
there. And then I go to a dating app
23:00
and I try to ask someone out and there's just not much to talk
23:02
about because I haven't basically done things or
23:06
developed interests that women might also have that we could
23:09
talk about together and go on dates that are related to that
23:11
together. Read poetry and go scuba diving
23:15
I. Don't know.
23:16
Yeah, anything. I mean, there's anything you
23:18
might be interested in there? You had a chapter called You
23:23
don't have a type. And I thought that it was such a
23:26
good chapter because, but I want you to explain it for people
23:30
because what you weren't saying, you weren't saying not to have
23:32
standards. You weren't saying not to have
23:34
desires and interests. What were?
23:37
What did you mean? By you don't have a type.
23:39
It was purposely a little bit of a blunt statement for the
23:42
chapter title because I want to challenge people's thinking.
23:45
I had to challenge my own thinking on this.
23:47
So this is very much a personal journey for me that I went
23:51
through. I, when I first met my husband,
23:54
kind of completely dismissed him because I just didn't think he
23:57
looked like my type, didn't think he acted like my type.
23:59
It was sort of an initial just surface level judgement.
24:02
You know, he has earrings and tattoos and just kind of a.
24:06
More. Outgoing personality.
24:08
Yeah. I was like, this is.
24:09
It just wasn't the kind of guy I had ever dated before.
24:11
And so I was, you know, sending those signals that I wasn't
24:14
interested. And I'm so glad that he non
24:18
creepily, gently just continued trying to get to know me.
24:21
And that eventually God worked on my heart and brought me
24:23
around to be more open because it turns out the type I had
24:27
before, there's probably a reason it wasn't working out and
24:31
I needed a new type. So I challenge people to have
24:35
standards for whom you're going to marry.
24:38
So those big picture, really important things like shared
24:41
faith or shared values, shared goals for your life.
24:46
You have to have some interests in common, something to talk
24:48
about. Sure.
24:49
You know, just be able to basically click and communicate
24:51
well with each other. But any of those kind of smaller
24:55
preferences like height is always the stereotype.
24:58
Women want someone who's 6/4 or whatever, you know, things like
25:03
looks, even somewhat interests, hobbies, even slightly different
25:09
flavors of the same faith maybe. There are lots of things that I
25:12
think we need to let go of, at least in the beginning stages
25:15
and be open to meeting people who don't fit all those criteria
25:17
on the list. Be open to going on at least a
25:19
first date with people who don't fit any criteria on the list.
25:22
And just get to know people step by step so that then you can
25:26
see, number one, are you actually more compatible with a
25:29
different type of person than what you've always thought?
25:32
And #2 is this difference you have with the other person
25:36
actually a way that God wants to help you grow?
25:38
Because I found that the differences between me and my
25:41
husband were actually things that helped kind of balance each
25:43
other out. We're both growing.
25:45
We're both learning every day. As a result of that, our
25:47
relationship was instantly very good and very healthy, in part
25:51
because we're a bit different in our personalities and those
25:54
surface level differences like having tattoos versus not just
25:59
didn't matter after like 3 days, it really didn't.
26:02
I found myself actually very attracted to him, even though he
26:05
didn't look like the type that I had ever wanted to date before
26:08
so. Are they face tattoos?
26:09
No, I. Understand it?
26:11
No, no, no, he told me that the. Meaning behind each one and you.
26:14
Know. Yeah, you don't have to be
26:16
looking at them. I didn't know.
26:19
So one of the things that I, I love that you specifically
26:22
mentioned in the book was that I talked about self-awareness and
26:25
kind of getting to know yourself.
26:26
And the more we grow in self knowledge, the more we can be, I
26:29
think, in a position to love better, quite frankly, and to be
26:33
loved. Self knowledge is a gift.
26:35
But you, I think you had some common and there's somewhere
26:37
about how even the person that's like maximally self knowledge
26:41
doubt, like they've discerned and prayed and matured and been
26:44
mentored and all the things you're still not perfect in
26:47
yourself knowledge. And that's why allowing other
26:49
people to kind of rock your world a little bit and open up
26:52
your your horizons and in the way that they interact in the
26:56
world. We're not talking about morality
26:57
right now. We're not talking about like
26:58
moral issues and basic issues of faith.
27:00
We're talking about personality and preference and things like
27:02
that. You might discover things you
27:05
would have never known about yourself otherwise.
27:08
Yes, I personally experienced in particular during my
27:12
relationship with my husband when we started dating, some
27:16
deep ugly wounds in my soul. I guess my my mind were kind of
27:22
bubbling up that I didn't even know were there.
27:24
It wasn't because he was doing anything to cause any wounds.
27:27
It was because actually he was very good for me to be around
27:29
and I could see this is another way to be that's actually
27:33
healthier. And it was such a gift to have
27:36
that happen. And then just from being around
27:38
him, he was very supportive of just kind of letting me heal,
27:41
letting me navigate this, praying for me and supporting me
27:44
during all of that. I was able to heal from a lot of
27:47
things very quickly and, and come out better.
27:49
And even if we hadn't gotten married, that would have been
27:51
such a gift. So I think God very, very often
27:54
uses relationships to kind of trigger something that he wants
27:58
to do in US. And often times that's because
28:01
the person is a little different than what you had in mind.
28:03
We don't always know what's actually going to make us
28:06
happiest and holiest, but God knows best and He He can just
28:09
put the right person in your life at the right time.
28:11
OK, so what's your take on how to meet more people?
28:14
And then also that's connected to online dating because a lot
28:17
of people are using apps today to just meet people.
28:19
And I know a lot of success stories, quite frankly, of
28:21
people who've met via apps, but I haven't ever met someone who
28:24
likes online dating at the same time.
28:27
They all want to just meet them naturally.
28:29
So how do you meet more people naturally, and then how do you
28:32
approach online dating in the best way?
28:34
Yeah, I say that both of those should be tools in your tool
28:37
belt, so to speak. I used to be more against online
28:40
dating. I never wanted to do it myself,
28:42
luckily never had to. And the more I heard from
28:45
people, the more it just sounded.
28:47
I think I, what I say in the book, it, it sounds like the
28:49
worst of shopping on Amazon combined with, you know, 'cause
28:54
you're putting all your filters on, trying to find exactly the
28:56
right person and then judging based on the pictures like, and
28:59
then it comes. In and it's from China and
29:00
you're like, what the heck, this isn't what I asked for.
29:04
Yeah, So it's, yeah, not not necessarily a pleasant
29:10
experience, but I did interview people who met that way and who
29:14
have very happy marriages. And so I asked them, what did
29:16
you do that worked? And I kind of came around to
29:19
seeing it as definitely a good tool to have, but one that
29:23
should be balanced out with also trying to meet people in person
29:25
at the same time. Because you don't want to just
29:27
lose your social skills for one thing and be behind the screen
29:30
all the time, but also you just don't know that they're might be
29:33
someone out there perfect for you who's in your city, who's
29:35
just not on the same dating app. So I think doing both is good.
29:40
Online dating should actually just be online meeting.
29:43
It should be the way you meet someone initially and then you
29:45
should bring that relationship into real life as soon as
29:47
possible. And from there on it progresses
29:50
just like any natural relationship.
29:52
It might be long distance, for example, but it's I think it's
29:56
not the end of the world. If you're how how we met story
29:59
is the Internet, which might not be the most exciting thing, but
30:01
it's if it's the right person, then your life is going to be
30:04
wonderful and you're never going to regret it as far as in
30:08
person. But one, one quick second, you
30:09
said something I think that's really important in what you
30:12
wrote in your book is get it off off, off online as quickly as
30:16
possible. And so that you're not wasting
30:20
time constantly texting, messaging people on an app.
30:24
I mean, I thought that was a really interesting point because
30:25
I think a lot of people there's like this long lead time where
30:28
they have this like months go by with these casual communication.
30:32
But you actually put the clamp down on that in the book and
30:35
you're like, what do you have to say to that for now online
30:38
dating? I think the danger with lots of
30:40
texting and this is actually a piece of advice that I got from
30:44
a Catholic psychologist. His name is Doctor Greg Butaro.
30:46
He has a really nice list of seven rules for online dating
30:49
and he called it online meeting. Online dating is a misnomer.
30:52
He says it should be online meeting and he recommends being
30:55
very open to, you know, any messages you get, any likes or
30:59
swipes or whatever it is, you know, be very open to all these
31:02
people at first. But he, I think he gives kind of
31:05
a timeline. Like it should be no more than
31:06
maybe 3 days or so of just texting or emailing, you know,
31:10
written messages before you move to a phone call.
31:13
And it should be no more than a week or two before you move to
31:15
an in person date. And I really appreciate that
31:18
kind of time limit because I, I do run into people who seem like
31:22
they're in this sort of halfway state where they're, I'm talking
31:25
to someone online, but he's all the way in a different state.
31:28
And it sounds to me sometimes like maybe the other person just
31:32
isn't making enough of an effort to actually meet up in person.
31:35
And not to be hard on the guys, but I particularly dislike that
31:38
when it's the guy who isn't saying, can I drive to you?
31:42
Can we meet halfway? Can, you know, can we do
31:44
something so we can actually meet in person?
31:46
Because you just don't fully know somebody until you see them
31:49
in the flesh, You see how they actually interact in real life.
31:52
I think video calls are the the best, second best.
31:57
You can at least tell that this person probably is who they say
32:00
they are. And they're not totally
32:01
catfishing here, which is helpful, but it's still not the
32:04
same. And it's something a friend said
32:08
to me a long time ago that has stuck with me is that
32:10
communication is not a relationship.
32:12
It's part of a relationship and it's an important part.
32:15
But eventually just talking isn't enough.
32:17
You actually need to have experiences together.
32:19
So it's good. Going on dates is just fun
32:23
little experiences. And you can see how people
32:24
interact with other people around and in different
32:26
settings. They can meet your friends, they
32:28
can meet your family when it's time for all of that, I think
32:30
all of that is really important. And if you just talk online for
32:35
a really long time, you might get very emotionally invested.
32:38
And then when you finally meet in person, you might just get
32:42
get just a weird feeling like this person, what have I done?
32:46
Like ordering the thing from Timmu or whatever.
32:48
That's not what you thought. Or, or they might be exactly
32:51
what they presented themselves as.
32:53
It might not be any deception on their part, but just, I don't
32:57
know if it's it's, it's a biological thing maybe that you
33:01
just don't feel right around this person and that's something
33:03
you have to listen to as well. Whereas if you met in person,
33:05
you would know that pretty quickly.
33:07
So I think it's a good tool, but we do have to sort of put a time
33:11
limit on how much happens on the Internet before just making it
33:14
incarnational. Might be a nice theological word
33:16
for it. Bring it into real life.
33:17
Have your your body language and being in the same room be a part
33:20
of your relationship as soon as you can.
33:22
Even if it's long distance. Just making that effort early on
33:25
is going to be worth it. It's really good and we have
33:28
that rule over at one of my organization's live action.
33:31
We always meet in person before we make a job offer and we're
33:35
remote staff. It's like, that needs to happen,
33:37
but we need it needs to happen because there's so much that you
33:39
learn in person, not Zoom, not FaceTime, like an in person
33:42
meeting to understand and get to know someone properly.
33:46
And for dating, it's all the more important.
33:48
Yes, OK, your marriage is not going to be online.
33:50
Yes. You were going to go into next
33:53
how to increase opportunities to meet people Like where?
33:57
Where can you? Where do you recommend people go
33:59
in real life to meet people? I always got frustrated when I
34:04
would see people so often it's on Reddit or somewhere on the
34:07
Internet saying where do I meet my spouse.
34:09
I just. I can't seem to find anybody and
34:11
the only advice anybody ever seems to give is try Catholic
34:14
match again for Catholics or try a dating app or just talk to.
34:19
Christian Mingle I think it is right just.
34:21
Talk to people at church and of course the response is maybe
34:25
I've tried those things already and it's not working.
34:27
So there are a lot of maybe lesser known ways that I
34:31
recommend people kind of branch out and meet people.
34:33
Just the other day, I heard that there's this organization called
34:36
Catholic Sports that runs just kind of casual recreational
34:41
sports leagues in a bunch of kind of cities around the
34:43
country, and they're saying that over 100 couples have met and
34:47
gotten married through it, even though that's not their core
34:50
mission at all. I've heard similar things about
34:53
young Catholic professionals. They're doing sort of
34:55
professional development and networking and faith formation
34:57
and all these wonderful things. And they're not meant to be a
34:59
dating service, but people do just organically meet through
35:02
going to a happy hour that they're putting on or something
35:04
like that, or at their conference that they have once a
35:06
year. So looking for things like that
35:09
that are maybe not just limited to your parish or your immediate
35:13
neighborhood or just sort of the paths you're usually running in,
35:16
but you have some other interest or some other reason you'd want
35:21
to be there anyway. And you're going to meet some
35:22
like minded people that way is always a good idea.
35:25
There's infinite numbers of those things.
35:28
Again, it could be a grocery store parking lot, it could be
35:30
anywhere. But I'm also a big fan of
35:35
putting on dedicated singles events, which some people really
35:40
don't like the sound of that they think it's gonna be really
35:42
awkward. But I used to run mixers and
35:45
speed dating events in Nashville, and I've since handed
35:50
off the ministry to someone else, but we ran about 3 speed
35:53
dating events over the course of six months.
35:56
Now there are I believe 3 marriages and two more
36:00
engagements that can be traced to just those did.
36:02
You charge for that. We would charge just enough to
36:04
cover the venue, that kind of thing.
36:05
I wanted it to be nonprofit, and the first event I was trying to
36:09
participate in it and run it at the same time, and it was
36:13
absolute chaos. But that's what got me to go on
36:15
a date with my husband, so I'm very grateful.
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off your order. And then you had also some
37:24
advice for just even presentation.
37:26
And I want to just include that really quick here, like how
37:29
people should think about dress. I think a lot of times today,
37:34
people will go out of the house just dressed like they're going
37:37
to the gym. It's kind of a typical thing.
37:38
And if you're going to the gym, you should be dressed like
37:40
you're going to the gym, right? What's your take on dress?
37:43
Right. I think it's a good exercise to
37:48
just everywhere you go, present yourself in a way that you
37:51
wouldn't be totally embarrassed if you met a really cute guy or
37:54
girl that you might be interested in.
37:56
You know, think about just being mindful of, you know, unless you
38:00
are going to the gym or something like that where you
38:01
need to look more casual or be sweaty, whatever, you know,
38:04
that's fine. But thinking about that before
38:07
just going anywhere because you really never know where you're
38:09
going to meet someone and it just gets you kind of in
38:11
practice, it helps you build maybe a wardrobe that you should
38:14
have anyway of clothes that actually look nice on you.
38:17
Thinking about what colors and silhouettes actually bring out
38:21
the best of your God-given beauty or your God-given good
38:24
looks, I think is, is such a good thing to do.
38:27
And we don't often think about that unless we're specifically
38:31
going to something where we we really want to make a good
38:34
impression on people. Why not make a good impression
38:36
all the time, you know? I love that and I, I think too
38:39
everyone, some people might be listening well like, well, I,
38:41
you know, I want to just be comfortable or well, I'm just
38:44
not. Maybe some people don't feel
38:45
they're that attractive, but the reality is, I think anyone who's
38:48
seeking health and who's taking care of themselves is
38:51
attractive. And if you're meant to get
38:52
married, you will absolutely be attractive to the person that
38:55
God may place in your path. So.
38:57
Yes, just don't put barriers in the way of looking attractive,
39:01
you know Exactly. I do think you can also look
39:03
nice and be very comfortable at the same time by just kind of
39:06
finding the right things that fit well and maybe the right
39:09
materials for the weather that you're going to be in.
39:11
That kind of thing can go a long way.
39:14
The Internet is actually such a gift.
39:15
And the clothes dropping department, at least to me, it's
39:17
like, yeah, you can search for exactly what you.
39:19
Want all right, so you have another chapter called the non
39:24
exclusive stage Who says you shouldn't date around?
39:28
And this is maybe one of your more controversial chapters, but
39:31
you basically recommend going on dates with multiple people for a
39:36
period of time and not doing 1 and done dating.
39:40
Meaning you're just going just pursuing one person at a time,
39:43
basically pursuing potentially multiple people at a time,
39:46
including for men to do that. Yes, and I definitely get the
39:50
most pushback or at least questions on that point versus
39:56
anything else that I say in the book, which is interesting.
39:58
But I think what I found for myself was that it was very easy
40:04
to get really over committed to someone very quickly.
40:08
And it it seemed like every relationship was kind of all or
40:11
nothing. Either we weren't going to date
40:12
at all or I was all in emotionally by like date 3.
40:16
And then it was really, really hard if it ended.
40:19
And it led me to, you know, kind of retreat into a period of
40:22
singleness so that I could heal from that before moving on to
40:25
someone else. And after a while I mean.
40:27
Exhausting. Yeah, it's exhausting and it's
40:30
not efficient, for lack of a better word.
40:32
You know, it's like I spent years and years kind of in this
40:34
cycle. And sometimes the only reason
40:37
that happens is because we're dating out of sort of a sense of
40:39
scarcity. Like this is the only person
40:41
that I'm interested in or that I can possibly imagine meeting
40:45
right now that I might be interested in.
40:47
And so I kind of have to make this work, even if it's really
40:49
not working. Whereas if you can allow
40:53
yourself to sort of be open to multiple people, sometimes that
40:57
really helps you just naturally see who actually is a better fit
41:01
for you more quickly and, and just relax a little bit and let
41:05
it happen organically. Just get to know people a little
41:07
bit at a time. It's OK for the relationship to
41:10
be kind of shallow at first because that's a preparation for
41:14
going deeper. If we meet a new friend, we
41:16
don't immediately just pour out everything in our heart and soul
41:20
and get super invested in that person because that's just not
41:22
natural. It's much more human actually to
41:25
kind of ease in bit by bit. And then at any point it's
41:28
pretty easy to just ease back out if you realize this isn't
41:30
going to work and you don't want to go further.
41:32
So I have heard from multiple different experts, you know,
41:35
matchmakers, priests, lots of people, that it's a great idea
41:39
to take up to about 3 months to get to know someone before
41:44
deciding you're in an exclusive relationship with that person
41:46
and that you're actively discerning marriage.
41:48
And I think that's especially true if you are meeting online
41:51
or even just in kind of the young professional world where
41:53
you don't see someone every day at school or anything like that.
41:56
If you've go go from strangers to we are discerning marriage
42:00
within less than a month, that just seems like a little too
42:04
much too soon for your emotions. And it can also lead to kind of
42:09
difficulties or temptations with how much physical expression
42:12
should we have of this relationship right now and we
42:14
don't actually know each other that well.
42:16
So I think easing in for up to three months, giving yourself
42:19
that roughly 90 day time frame where you're challenging
42:22
yourself not to be all or nothing, just take one date at a
42:26
time. That doesn't mean you have to go
42:27
for 90 days. If you know sooner than that
42:29
that it's a no, it's a no. And that's fine, but not being
42:32
exclusive for at least two months, ultimately about 3 was
42:38
sort of the ideal that I kept hearing.
42:40
And I should say, some people hear this and they're thinking,
42:44
I can't even find one person to date.
42:45
How in the world did I date multiple people for three home?
42:48
Read Rachel's book exactly. Yes, but I I definitely hear
42:53
from a lot of men in particular that they just they get
42:56
interested in one woman at a time and they can't really
42:58
imagine themselves like planning dates and paying for days for
43:02
multiple girls at once. And that's fine.
43:04
I don't think people should force themselves to date 5
43:07
people at once. But I think the goal really is
43:10
to be clear about your commitment level.
43:12
So your commitment level is is at a non exclusive level for a
43:16
few months. So if you happen to meet someone
43:19
else that you were interested in one month into this first dating
43:22
connection, it would be OK to go out with them if you wanted to.
43:25
If you don't want to, that's fine, and you can also give the
43:28
other person the space to maybe not be exclusive with you, even
43:31
if you're not interested in anyone else.
43:32
So it's mutual and that needs to be communicated.
43:35
That needs to be done very respectfully.
43:37
But I think that it just keeps you from from getting too deep,
43:42
either emotionally or physically and getting too committed if you
43:46
just have the mindset, like maybe someone else will cross my
43:49
path. I'm not sure if this person is
43:50
it yet. Yeah, up to two or three months.
43:54
And then I think for most people, naturally by that point,
43:57
you know, if you really want to go deeper with this person,
43:59
really discern marriage. And ironically, I think people,
44:02
at least this is my experience. My husband and I, I, I started
44:06
dating him when I was also seeing other people.
44:08
He was just sort of one of the the mix at that time after the
44:11
speed dating event. And even though we took a while
44:14
to become boyfriend and girlfriend, you know, put that
44:16
label on it, start meeting each other's families, all those
44:18
things. Once we were boyfriend and
44:20
girlfriend, we were exclusive. We only had to date really a few
44:23
more months before we knew we wanted to get married, so it
44:25
actually seemed to speed up the whole time frame because I knew
44:28
he was the right person. We had entered into the
44:30
relationship very intentionally. Some people see sort of casual
44:34
dating and dating around as the opposite of intentional, but I
44:37
think you can be intentionally casual or intentionally keep
44:42
things a little more shallow and just ease into it step by step,
44:45
and that can actually be a very good thing for your discernment.
44:47
I think that's great. So instead of starting fast and
44:50
then slowing down and getting in a limbo, you know, there's these
44:53
stories of people that date for years and years and years and
44:56
it's, you know, usually very painful.
44:58
Often for the woman in that scenario you're recommending
45:00
actually start really slow. And then once things have lined
45:04
up and you really had the time to get to know them, then going
45:07
fast is fine, but take that time to get to know each other.
45:10
You had a chapter that was called the Exclusive Stage Deal
45:14
Breakers and Discernment. What are the red flags?
45:18
What should be the Dale Breakers?
45:21
Yeah, I, I want to say first there was a really interesting
45:25
point that I heard from again, another Catholic psychologist
45:28
that I interviewed for the book. His name is Doctor Brian Violet.
45:31
He said sometimes something that's a red flag for one
45:35
couple, meaning an absolute deal breaker for one couple isn't
45:38
necessarily for another. It might be more of a yellow
45:40
flag or something you need to work through, which was
45:42
interesting because sometimes we think, you know, certain things
45:45
are just are just too much, but some somebody else could work
45:48
with it. Red flags would be if you
45:50
disagree. I'm actually stealing these from
45:52
matchmaker Christina Pineda. But it's just good advice.
45:55
If you disagree on whether or not you want to have children,
45:58
there's really no compromise on that one.
45:59
And, and how soon should you be talking with the person that
46:03
you're dating about those things like whether or not they want to
46:06
have children? I I think you shouldn't force it
46:10
out on a first date. Sometimes it comes out naturally
46:12
and that's OK, but. Definitely by 3 or 4.
46:15
I think 3 or 4. If you're a question marked
46:18
about that, like does this person even want to have kids,
46:20
Maybe don't keep wasting. Usually people will naturally
46:23
mention something like, oh, with my future kids someday I hope
46:27
you know, and, and that's great and so.
46:30
You can also just say I love kids and then see what they.
46:33
Do or say I like, I hope to have a big family, just like share
46:36
your own side of it and see how they react.
46:38
So you don't have to be super interviewing about it.
46:40
Like do you want 12 children? You know?
46:42
But yeah, it should come out within a few days.
46:44
I think similarly, just because you might be dating someone
46:48
who's a fellow Christian or a fellow Catholic does not
46:50
necessarily mean that marriage is a very important goal for
46:53
them or that they're planning to be ready to get married within
46:56
the same time frame that you are.
46:58
So hopefully allowing some of that to come out in those first
47:02
few days is a good idea. If you have to just straight up
47:06
ask by date four or five, like not not asking you to marry me,
47:10
but are, you know, like, are you planning on getting married
47:13
within the next couple years or or you know, how's that going to
47:15
go for you? That can be so frustrating if
47:18
you are. Maybe you're the woman.
47:20
You're saying I have a biological clock that's ticking
47:22
and I'd really like to be married within the next, say,
47:24
three years or whatever. And the other person is like,
47:27
oh, I have career plans that are going to take seven years.
47:29
I'm in no rush. You know, you don't want to
47:32
learn that way down the road. So basically marriage being an
47:36
important goal roughly the same time frame?
47:38
Do you both want children even if you don't have a specific
47:40
number on it or anything? And it is amazing, I will say,
47:45
like in culture, how many in our today's culture, how many people
47:49
seem to be OK with these endless relationships?
47:53
I remember in college, I had a boyfriend at one point and we
47:55
were, I mean, boyfriend's a strong word, but we were
47:58
eventually boyfriend and girlfriend after dating casually
48:00
for a few months. And but the, the exclusive
48:03
relationship is very short because I asked him, I was like,
48:07
you know, I could kind of tell that even though he was really
48:09
into the relationship that there didn't seem to be longevity for
48:13
him in terms of a life plan beyond college really.
48:16
And so I was like, well. When do you see yourself?
48:18
Getting married was the question that I remember asking him.
48:21
And he was like, I don't know. I decided maybe in a few years,
48:24
I'm not sure. And I was like, what am I doing?
48:25
I was like, what am I doing dating you?
48:28
I mean, I think you're awesome, but I'm going to peace out
48:30
pretty quick here because this, this is not, I'm not around to
48:33
just date you for five years. You know, you're an amazing
48:36
person, but. If you both have certain goals
48:39
you're working toward, like you're still in school or
48:41
something like that, and your timelines are going to kind of
48:44
align, then it probably makes a lot of sense.
48:46
But if you are maybe one person really has their life together
48:51
ready to go and the other person might just be kind of
48:54
floundering a little bit more and then isn't sure where
48:57
they're headed or how long it's going to take.
48:59
If there's really no, no time limit on it whatsoever, you
49:03
know, then I think more often that could be problematic.
49:07
But I, as always, I would come back to pray and consider
49:11
carefully and just take it one step at a time because you can't
49:14
really put a blanket rule on that I think either way.
49:17
All right, there's a lot more in the book, but I want to get to 1
49:19
last topic before we closeout today, and this has been so fun.
49:23
You have a chapter called When should we kiss and the chastity
49:27
talk I wish I heard as a teen. This is something I'm very
49:31
passionate about talking about. We actually did a whole series
49:33
over at Live Action called The Truth About Sex because I think
49:36
the extremes of purity culture on the one hand and some of the
49:40
messages that came through whether inadvertently or on
49:43
purpose, and then the cultures excess, like sex, whatever you
49:48
want, as long as there's consent, you're good.
49:50
There's no meaning beyond that can be too unhealthy extremes.
49:55
What do you think? What are your What is the
49:59
chastity talk that you wish you'd heard as a team?
50:02
Yeah, I wish I had been given more of a just a complete
50:07
picture. I think sometimes the chastity
50:09
advice that we're giving to younger Christians is a long
50:13
list of don'ts, you know, don't do this before marriage and
50:18
mostly just don't have sex before marriage.
50:19
That's the biggest message that comes across.
50:23
And then sometimes you'll hear something like, and don't go too
50:26
far with kissing or other things too.
50:28
But it was very difficult, at least for me growing up, to get
50:33
the the chastity speaker or whoever was giving the advice to
50:36
say anything about what too far actually meant.
50:38
Well then they'd say, if you're asking how far is too far, then
50:41
you're going too far. Right, that's.
50:43
I'm not even dating anyone right now.
50:45
I'm. Definitely not going too far.
50:47
And I tended toward the kind of anxiety and scrupulosity as
50:51
sometimes in this area, and I think a lot of people do.
50:53
So then you start thinking whoever touches another person
50:57
the least before marriage is the holiest.
50:59
And that's what we're all striving for.
51:01
And that's just also not true and not human and not what God
51:04
says. So what I lay out in the book is
51:08
here's what the Catholic Church teaches us.
51:11
Here's what God actually says. This is what we can learn about
51:14
our bodies and sex and everything from scripture and
51:17
tradition. Also, here's all the rules that
51:22
they don't say, you know, God didn't give us these
51:24
commandments. The church doesn't teach this.
51:26
And so there's no rule, There's no rule in the Bible not to kiss
51:30
before marriage, right? You know, there's room for
51:33
prudence and our own good judgment in this area.
51:36
So I think we need to emphasize that, you know, there are some
51:39
things that people might advise, but it's just advice.
51:42
You can decide if it's helpful or not.
51:43
It might be very good advice that most people should take,
51:45
but that's not the same as it being God's commandments, right?
51:49
That being said, I do hear some very good advice from people I
51:53
listed in the book. Again, another psychologist,
51:57
Doctor Mario Sacasa, has a really good online course
52:00
actually called Dating Well, and he goes through lots of
52:02
different topics, but he talks about physical affection and
52:05
chastity and he says, OK, if sex is off limits, that means
52:10
anything that would very directly lead to sex or put you
52:13
in a big position of temptation is also off limits.
52:15
So keeping all your clothes on, not touching certain body parts,
52:19
you know, I won't get too detailed there, but, you know,
52:21
use a little common sense. Some things should just not
52:24
happen before marriage. Even if it's not full on sex, it
52:27
just doesn't make sense because it's preparatory to the Marriage
52:30
Act. But things like kissing, hand
52:34
holding, kind of when that's appropriate.
52:35
I think the most important principle that I would give
52:38
people is one that actually Saint John Paul the second
52:42
articulates he, he goes much deeper into it and uses very
52:46
philosophical language that I find a little hard to
52:48
understand. But ultimately what he says is
52:51
physical affection should be the expression of an existing
52:54
relationship, not the cause of your attachment.
52:59
So at every stage of a relationship, you have a certain
53:03
amount of relationship there that can be expressed in some
53:06
way physically. That's very appropriate.
53:08
So I I provide stories in the book of people who either kissed
53:16
on their first date because actually they knew each other
53:18
pretty well by then. They had been friends before.
53:20
They had already said I love you.
53:22
And this was just a way that, you know, they expressed their
53:25
relationship and it was perfectly fine for them and they
53:27
have no regrets. But a lot of people probably
53:29
shouldn't kiss on a first date because they're not actually at
53:31
that point in the relationship yet.
53:33
So it's not God's law, but it just might not be the most
53:36
prudent thing to do. It can just kind of mess with
53:39
your discernment, kind of causes attachments to form too quickly
53:42
when you don't really have the foundation and friendship and
53:44
really knowing about the person yet, so.
53:47
I think that's true too, with even like cuddling.
53:49
I've heard from a lot of wonderful Catholic young men and
53:52
women that I talked to about dating.
53:55
But, you know, sometimes it's like, well, if it's like sort of
53:57
chase cuddling, it's not like sexual, but you're like, you
53:59
know, getting cozy with them. But you're just starting to date
54:02
and that becomes like this whole part of your relationship.
54:05
You're just like cuddling all the time.
54:07
It's like that's, that's not, I mean, yeah, maybe it's not
54:09
overtly wrong or sexual or anything like that.
54:11
But the point there is, is your relationship a cuddleship?
54:16
I mean, it sounds kind of nice, I guess, but that's why you
54:19
should get married and have kids and then you can cuddle your
54:20
kids. But that's not discerning or
54:22
really getting to know them. That's like a very expensive
54:27
security blank like physical blanket that you could get on
54:31
Amazon instead of it being this human being that you're kind of
54:34
using for oxytocin. Yes, the use is really a big
54:38
part of the problem there. Even if that's not intentional,
54:41
like, oh, I'm using this person, but what are you really getting?
54:44
You're just getting a lot of oxytocin and like good feelings.
54:46
But you, you, the goal here is to really get to know this
54:49
person, their soul, like understand them, discern.
54:52
Do you want to keep getting to know them deeper, more deeply
54:55
towards marriage? So it's easy, I think, to get
54:58
lost along the way. Absolutely and and sometimes in
55:02
our modern American culture, especially young single adults
55:05
can be very starved for physical affection.
55:07
It's a good point some you know, if you're not living with your
55:09
family, then maybe you're not getting hugs all the time.
55:11
There's. No babies around.
55:13
Yeah, so sometimes we really crave that, maybe for for good
55:17
reasons, but we're just trying to get all of it from the person
55:19
we've just started dating. And so I, I would recommend
55:22
having, you know, close friends and family and babies around as
55:26
much as possible, kind of exactly like those are perfectly
55:30
safe ways to, to express affection and get your oxytocin
55:34
boost without being sexual at all.
55:36
And then with the person you're dating, you're not putting all
55:38
the pressure on them to provide that you know, or, or causing
55:41
them maybe deeper heartbreak if you break up because they did
55:45
get really bonded to you through this physical touch.
55:47
So. I think we're also scared of
55:50
sexualizing touch today. Touch is so sexualized today.
55:54
And so we're like afraid of hugging the old person.
55:56
We're afraid of hugging a friend.
55:58
We're afraid of like patting some on the back.
56:00
Or I mean, physical touch has become so, I think, taboo in
56:04
many ways, which is really sad. And so we're all starving for
56:07
it. And then maybe it means we kind
56:10
of create these outlets for it that are not as healthy or
56:13
normal. Exactly.
56:14
Yeah, There's a really interesting book that I briefly
56:17
mentioned in mine and an article she's written too.
56:20
She, she talks about this reality of being touch starved
56:24
or skin hunger and how a lot of people in the hookup culture are
56:28
hooking up because they just want to be touched and be, be
56:30
close to someone. And then they realize I didn't,
56:33
I didn't really want sex all that much.
56:34
I just wanted someone near me. I wanted to share a bed with
56:37
someone basically. And that's so sad, you know?
56:40
And so maybe as Christians, we maybe we've decided we're not
56:42
going to participate in that, but it can be so easy to sort of
56:45
do the same thing in a different way.
56:46
Yeah. So it's really good.
56:48
OK, last question and this was the last chapter, the engagement
56:54
stage. And you know, there's obviously
56:57
so much more we could talk about what we're going to end here.
57:01
When you are discerning whether or not to get married and then
57:04
you you make the leap, you're engaged, what would you say is
57:07
the most important thing you should do with an engagement?
57:10
Prepare for your marriage, not just your wedding, because I
57:15
think it's so, so easy to get so caught up in the details of your
57:19
wedding plan. I, I definitely felt that
57:21
temptation myself. My now husband and I, we had to
57:25
set boundaries for ourselves at a certain point because if we
57:28
talked, we were talking about the wedding for the longest
57:30
time. And we eventually decided to
57:32
have a couple of dates where we would say, all right, we're
57:35
going to knock out this one piece of wedding planning and
57:37
we're going to be done with it by a certain time.
57:39
And then we're not talking about the wedding for the rest of the
57:41
evening. We're not touching on that at
57:43
all. We're going to just focus on our
57:45
relationship and keep our relationship healthy and
57:47
thriving. And I think that's really good
57:49
practice for marriage too, because you're going to get
57:51
caught up in work and kids and everything else, and you need to
57:53
still focus on each other. So that's the number one thing.
57:57
It's nice to have a nice wedding, but ultimately so much
58:00
is stuff that nobody, none of the guests, maybe not even you
58:03
will remember in a year. You know, like exactly what the
58:06
centerpieces looked like is is lovely and all, but it doesn't
58:08
really matter that much. You can just kind of let it
58:11
happen and it'll be OK. Focus on the fact that you're
58:14
entering this very important covenant, this sacrament that
58:18
you're you're going before God and your community to get
58:21
married. That's the focus.
58:23
All the other details of the day are are may be worth talking
58:27
about a little bit, but not too much.
58:28
Amen. Awesome, Rachel, you're awesome.
58:31
Where can people find your book? Prettygoodcatholic.com that goes
58:34
straight to the publishers website.
58:36
It also has the whole table of contents and a little sample for
58:38
people to read. So if you want to check that
58:41
out. And it is also available on
58:43
Amazon. There's a Kindle version and all
58:46
of that. Awesome.
58:47
Thanks for this gift that you've given to a lot of people.
58:50
I really think it's going to help a lot of people.
58:52
Way to go and. Congrats on your and Congrats on
58:56
your family. Rachel is 6 months pregnant.
58:58
You can't tell, but I'm very excited for you.
59:01
Thank you. Thanks so much, Rachel.
59:03
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Lila Rose
59:05
Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it.
59:08
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