Latest / The Ben Ferguson Podcast / It’s Not Over Yet

Transcript

It’s Not Over Yet · The Ben Ferguson Podcast

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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Senator Lindsay Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruise,
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Speaker 1: the number one podcast in the entire country. What is
0:07
Speaker 1: a podcast? Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruise. I'm
0:19
Speaker 1: Michael Knowles. I'm joined by not one, but two US
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Speaker 1: Senators to help us break down the most shocking day
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Speaker 1: of the entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so
0:29
Speaker 1: much for being here. Gentlemen. The last time that we
0:32
Speaker 1: sat down, I was told this impeachment was going to
0:35
Speaker 1: drag on for weeks. We were going to get witnesses.
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Speaker 1: We were gonna get Bolton, we were gonna get Hunter Biden.
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Speaker 1: This was gonna get long and ugly. I go to sleep.
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Speaker 1: I wake up today and the senators are voting no
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Speaker 1: more witnesses. This thing could be over next week, Senator Cruise,
0:49
Speaker 1: what happened? Well, today was a big day. And let
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Speaker 1: me say, lindsay, thank you. Well. You appreciate your coming.
0:55
Speaker 1: This is late at night. We spent all day, all
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Speaker 1: day in the setting, a lot of money on production. Sorry, well,
1:03
Speaker 1: this was you're right yesterday. If the vote had gone
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Speaker 1: differently today, this trial could have gone on for months.
1:09
Speaker 1: We could have seen a drag on and on and on,
1:12
Speaker 1: and it was a big deal. It was up in
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Speaker 1: the air, and today was the most important vote we've
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Speaker 1: had in the entire trial. It really came down to
1:22
Speaker 1: we knew we had forty seven Democrats that wanted more witnesses.
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Speaker 1: Why because they hadn't proved in the case. They're losing
1:28
Speaker 1: and so the only hope they have is extended, going
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Speaker 1: a fishing expedition and see if they can find something.
1:34
Speaker 1: The big open question was were four Republicans going to
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Speaker 1: join them? We knew that two Republicans were, they'd announced
1:40
Speaker 1: it already, Mitt Romney and Susan Collins were voting with them.
1:43
Speaker 1: There were two other senators who were in play, Lamar
1:45
Speaker 1: Alexander Lisa Murkowski, and it was close. Last night. Lamar
1:51
Speaker 1: announced that he was going to come out and say
1:52
Speaker 1: enough is enough. And we just found got a final
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Speaker 1: decision from Lisa today just a few minutes before she voted.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely So I saw the update on my phone when
2:02
Speaker 1: Senator Murkowski finally decided she was going to vote no
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Speaker 1: more witnesses. How does that work? Well, that's what I
2:08
Speaker 1: was going to ask you, because it's Michael. Have you
2:11
Speaker 1: ever seen his phone. You hang in there. That's worth
2:14
Speaker 1: worth the way. Oh you know it is. The Russians
2:21
Speaker 1: can't get in this. You'll all have one in a
2:23
Speaker 1: five years. Senator Grant, you're clearly a fiscal conservative if
2:26
Speaker 1: you were using that kind of cell phone. What happened
2:30
Speaker 1: with Senator Murkowski? I know that you two gentlemen were
2:33
Speaker 1: kneeling and dealing a little bit on the Senate floor.
2:36
Speaker 1: So unless number one Ted was awesome, we had a
2:39
Speaker 1: little team trying to convince people. Can you say shit
2:42
Speaker 1: show on podcasts? I think you just did that all right?
2:45
Speaker 1: So what would happened if you call witnesses being a
2:47
Speaker 1: shit show? Yeah, you're just not gonna call John Bolton.
2:50
Speaker 1: If you're gonna call a witness, we're gonna call all
2:52
Speaker 1: the witnesses. What do you want to know a little
2:55
Speaker 1: bit about the Bidens? You know, I like Joe Biden,
2:58
Speaker 1: but give me a break. If Mike pen this son
3:00
Speaker 1: was making three million dollars a year from the most
3:03
Speaker 1: corrupt gas company in the U Train, don't you think
3:05
Speaker 1: you might hear about it. You're only gonna hear about
3:08
Speaker 1: the Bidens on this podcast. So the bottom line here
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Speaker 1: is Ted made a very eloquent argument that it throwes
3:15
Speaker 1: the courts in the chaos to be the first impeachment
3:18
Speaker 1: in history. If you have executive privilege, we'll be decided
3:23
Speaker 1: by the United States Senate that if you call one witness,
3:27
Speaker 1: you're gonna call a bunch of witnesses. The president didn't
3:30
Speaker 1: get to call one witness in the House, so you
3:33
Speaker 1: open up Pandora's bogs and number two, the whole idea
3:37
Speaker 1: of legitimizing an impeachment in the House that took seventy
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Speaker 1: eight days. You can't get a parking ticket in seventy
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Speaker 1: eight days if you can test it. Not one witness
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Speaker 1: allowed to be called by the president, no cross examination.
3:51
Speaker 1: The bottom line is the whole thing was at sham,
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Speaker 1: and we were trying to convince Lisa and everybody else
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Speaker 1: don't legitimize this, don't do their work for them. They're
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Speaker 1: accusing you of being unfair because you did not call
4:02
Speaker 1: a witness. They chose doctor call. Why didn't they call
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Speaker 1: John Bolton because it would be inconvenient. They couldn't impeach
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Speaker 1: the president by Christmas. That's not a good reason to
4:11
Speaker 1: ignore the courts. Do you think that it was the
4:14
Speaker 1: public arguments well, we all saw on TV that moved
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Speaker 1: Senator Murkowski or was it more private conversations? So I
4:20
Speaker 1: think the pivotal moment happened day before yesterday. Day before yesterday,
4:24
Speaker 1: Adam Schiff made a mistake. He was standing up arguing
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Speaker 1: and he said, he said, listen, the White House defense
4:31
Speaker 1: team had made John Bolton relevant because they have contradicted
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Speaker 1: what he said. And then he threw a little aside.
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Speaker 1: He said, if they'd a stipulated to it, then they'd
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Speaker 1: have an argument. And it was interesting. I heard that
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Speaker 1: Jay Sekulo's eyes got real wide when he said that,
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Speaker 1: and I got up and went back to the cloak room.
4:49
Speaker 1: Lindsay went back to the close. Well, I opened my
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Speaker 1: eyes at that point. So for those of us who
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Speaker 1: were not us senators, why is that the big light
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Speaker 1: bulb moment? So well, I'll tell you. So, I immediately
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Speaker 1: in the cloak room, got my phone, texted my team
5:02
Speaker 1: and said, give me the transcript of exactly what Shift
5:04
Speaker 1: just said. And I went to Lindsay and we began talking, saying, look,
5:08
Speaker 1: we need to get Lamar, we need to get Lisa.
5:12
Speaker 1: This idea of if you stipulate to a quid pro quo.
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Speaker 1: If you agree, even if there is a quid pro quo,
5:18
Speaker 1: we win. That might get their vote, that might give them,
5:21
Speaker 1: give them a ground to become comfortable. So we got
5:24
Speaker 1: the script, Lindsay and I together in the cloak room.
5:27
Speaker 1: We talked with Lamar. We showed him exactly what he said.
5:29
Speaker 1: We said, what do you think about this? We talked
5:30
Speaker 1: with Lisa, He said, hey, what do you think about this?
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Speaker 1: They were open to the idea. They weren't convinced, but
5:35
Speaker 1: they were thinking about it. They were listening. We kept
5:39
Speaker 1: talking the next day in the question period, I think
5:42
Speaker 1: the most important question is a question Lindsay wrote that
5:44
Speaker 1: I helped him write, and it was a question that
5:47
Speaker 1: was to the White House team that essentially said, if
5:50
Speaker 1: you assume, for sake of argument, then John Bolton testifies
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Speaker 1: and everything he says is right, that we just assume
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Speaker 1: everything's right, that there's a quid pro quo, is that
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Speaker 1: impeachable offense or not? And the White House lawyers that
6:04
Speaker 1: they didn't want to go down this road. They had
6:06
Speaker 1: to be dragged, kicking and screaming to this point. And
6:09
Speaker 1: I'll tell you there was some kicking and screaming that
6:11
Speaker 1: Lindsay and I were both engaged with but they got
6:14
Speaker 1: up and they gave the answer, the most important answer,
6:16
Speaker 1: where they said, look, even if he testified, even if
6:19
Speaker 1: he says it's a quid pro quo, it doesn't change
6:22
Speaker 1: that it's an impeachable offense, which means his testimony isn't necessary.
6:26
Speaker 1: And they walked through, as we've been talking about on
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Speaker 1: this podcast, that a president can always investigate corruption, and
6:32
Speaker 1: if that's right, that a president can always investigate corruption,
6:35
Speaker 1: there was more than enough evidence of corruption. And I
6:38
Speaker 1: think that played. That exchange where the White House lawyers
6:41
Speaker 1: made that argument in response to the question we teed up,
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Speaker 1: I think was pivotal to getting both Lisa and Lamar,
6:48
Speaker 1: especially Lisa, to yes, which we need. So what you're
6:51
Speaker 1: saying the White House team was pushing back, They didn't
6:54
Speaker 1: necessarily want to go down this road of if there
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Speaker 1: was a quid pro quo, then X, Y and Z right. However,
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Speaker 1: if you address that that argument and it still doesn't
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Speaker 1: matter if there was a quid pro que, then there
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Speaker 1: is no basis whatsoever for the impeachment. Well, there's no
7:10
Speaker 1: basis to call John Bolton. So what brought all this up?
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Speaker 1: You know, Ted was very proud. I'm a practical guy.
7:17
Speaker 1: Lisa mccowski is independent from Alaska. We're Republicans from Texas
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Speaker 1: and South Carolina. A little different politics. And here's the problem.
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Speaker 1: They could have called John Bolton and others, but they
7:30
Speaker 1: chose not to because they wanted to impeach the president
7:32
Speaker 1: before Christmas. The president would declared executive privilege. It had
7:36
Speaker 1: gone to court like Nixon and Clinton did, but that
7:39
Speaker 1: got in the way of this railroad right job. But
7:42
Speaker 1: the problem is, there's a blurb in the New York Times,
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Speaker 1: as they always do, saying John Bolton has direct evidence
7:48
Speaker 1: that the President asked him to condition the AID on
7:52
Speaker 1: investigating the bidens looking at interference by the Ukraine. That
7:55
Speaker 1: was different. The defense team of the President said there
7:59
Speaker 1: is no evidence and there right, there was no direct
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Speaker 1: evidence in the record that the House chose to establish.
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Speaker 1: And from just a common sense point of view, it
8:08
Speaker 1: raises a question. Lamar is an institutionalist. He wanted to
8:11
Speaker 1: make sure that the Senate was a body that was
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Speaker 1: open minded, fair and Lisa had to go back home
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Speaker 1: and explained, well, why didn't you call any witnesses? And
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Speaker 1: here's the point. If we call John Bolton. Now want
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Speaker 1: the president raise executive privilege? Because if he doesn't, he
8:30
Speaker 1: forfeits that for future presidence. Do we as senators destroy
8:35
Speaker 1: the privilege? To be the first impeachment in history where
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Speaker 1: there was no court access, we would have to decide
8:40
Speaker 1: executive privilege. And I think that made Lamar feel uncomfortable.
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Speaker 1: So walk me through that just a little bit more,
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Speaker 1: because this is now not an argument. So this is
8:47
Speaker 1: really important right here. So this is about what happens
8:52
Speaker 1: if we try to capture this testimony. The president was
8:56
Speaker 1: denied the chance to go to court in the House,
8:58
Speaker 1: they shut him out. What if we say now we
9:01
Speaker 1: want to call him for a new reason, and if
9:04
Speaker 1: he asked to go to court, the logic is the
9:07
Speaker 1: court of impeachment de sized not Article three courts. It
9:11
Speaker 1: may be the first time in history a president was
9:13
Speaker 1: impeached without ever being able to avail the courts. Right,
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Speaker 1: So what's the answer this assuming for a moment arguendo podcast,
9:21
Speaker 1: people look up, Okay, you showed off your Latin and
9:26
Speaker 1: the episode so arguing, I am like it is a
9:29
Speaker 1: lawyer word. You put it in race all the time
9:31
Speaker 1: where you say assume arguendo, which is I'm not admitting it. Yeah,
9:35
Speaker 1: but assume for case of argument this is true. We
9:37
Speaker 1: still win. And so you do that in briefs all
9:39
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, that's right in South Carolina. What if
9:41
Speaker 1: he said it is assuming arguendo, would it matter? So
9:46
Speaker 1: why I assume for a moment for arguendo, for the
9:49
Speaker 1: sake of argument, that if John Bolton did, if he
9:54
Speaker 1: was told by the President, I want to suspend AID
9:57
Speaker 1: until I find more about what the Bidens did. He
9:59
Speaker 1: had every reason in the world because if you're in charge, Ted,
10:03
Speaker 1: if I put you in charge of fixing corruption in
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Speaker 1: the Ukraine and I find out that your son, who's
10:11
Speaker 1: you know, until I'm told that job pays a million
10:13
Speaker 1: bucks here, Okay, so it's better than podcasting, don't you
10:16
Speaker 1: think When Joe Biden gets in front of the Ukrainian
10:19
Speaker 1: parliament says we got in corruption in the Ukraine, particularly
10:23
Speaker 1: the energy sector, and everybody said, well, why is your
10:26
Speaker 1: son on the border breeze by making a million dollars,
10:28
Speaker 1: it kind of undercuts your argument. It destroyed our ability
10:32
Speaker 1: quite frankly, to be credible agents of change. And that's
10:35
Speaker 1: a public policy. And you know, all Lamar said, that's right.
10:38
Speaker 1: There's a reason to look at that. And there was
10:40
Speaker 1: all kind of evidence that the Ukraine UH didn't like
10:43
Speaker 1: Trump and like Clinton at least parts of it. So
10:45
Speaker 1: the president had a legitimate public purpose. And that gets
10:48
Speaker 1: back to Dershowitz. He says, if there's a mixed motive,
10:51
Speaker 1: the reason it's impeachment sucks so much. We got to
10:54
Speaker 1: get into Trump's brain and find out how much of
10:56
Speaker 1: it was personal and how much it was public and what.
11:00
Speaker 1: And I said, you know, they said, there's not a
11:02
Speaker 1: sentilla of evidence that the Biden said anything wrong. I said, no,
11:05
Speaker 1: there's not. There's a herd of zendillas. You know, if
11:08
Speaker 1: you find one of these little suckers rumming around, you win.
11:13
Speaker 1: So like even I could prove this doesn't pass the
11:16
Speaker 1: smell test. And they started thinking, and I said, assume
11:20
Speaker 1: for a moment that the conversation was most beneficial to
11:24
Speaker 1: the house managers. You wind up right where you are today.
11:27
Speaker 1: There was a legitimate public purpose to suspend the AID
11:31
Speaker 1: and this is not an impeachable fence. Do you think
11:33
Speaker 1: the founders really meant to throw the president out of
11:37
Speaker 1: office who could never run again because for forty days,
11:40
Speaker 1: he's suspended age of the Ukraine. They wind up getting
11:43
Speaker 1: the money and they didn't investigate anybody. But this is
11:46
Speaker 1: this is a real trick, a real political trick here,
11:48
Speaker 1: because you've got Senator Alexander, who you say cares about
11:52
Speaker 1: the institutions. He's a wonderful man of credibility. Absolutely, and
11:56
Speaker 1: you've got Senator Murkowski, who's independent, she's gonna go back home.
12:00
Speaker 1: Had real problems. So they have separate problems. And I
12:04
Speaker 1: understood maybe differently than others. And now I let ted
12:07
Speaker 1: talk here. You've got to address the problem in front
12:10
Speaker 1: of you. From Lisa Murkowski's point of view. If we
12:13
Speaker 1: could show Lisa that if you had the New York
12:16
Speaker 1: Times article in front of you and I tried to
12:18
Speaker 1: get a stipulation the day before, would it really matter.
12:22
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it still fall short of the impeachment? Is this
12:24
Speaker 1: really what they meant to throw a president out? That
12:27
Speaker 1: you suspend AID when they got the money, never did
12:30
Speaker 1: investigation the big picture stuff. Then I think that turned
12:33
Speaker 1: the thinking that you really didn't need Bolton because it
12:37
Speaker 1: wouldn't change the outcome. So one of the things that
12:40
Speaker 1: I think was really potent is Lindsay is a trial lawyer.
12:43
Speaker 1: I'm an a pellet lawyer. Those are different worlds, those
12:46
Speaker 1: are different arenas. I say shit show and he says stuff.
12:49
Speaker 1: So that's the difference between a trial lawyer and at lawyer. Look, look,
12:52
Speaker 1: trial lawyers talk to jury's a pellet lawyers talk to judges.
12:56
Speaker 1: Those are different ways of framing, framing things. But he
12:59
Speaker 1: and I teamed up very close. We probably wrote a
13:01
Speaker 1: dozen questions together, some of which we asked, some of
13:04
Speaker 1: which we gave to our colleagues and they asked. But
13:06
Speaker 1: a lot of it we were aiming over and over
13:09
Speaker 1: and over again. We had a purpose at Lamar and Lisa,
13:13
Speaker 1: trying to move them, but trying to also give them.
13:16
Speaker 1: You know, we talked on this podcast a lot of
13:18
Speaker 1: times about framing the narrative and choosing, choosing the terrain
13:21
Speaker 1: on which you fight, if the whole fight. Early on
13:25
Speaker 1: the White House spent hours an hour saying there's no
13:27
Speaker 1: quid pro quo, there's no quid pro quote. Well, you
13:29
Speaker 1: know what if that's their argument, The fact that the
13:32
Speaker 1: New York Time says John Bolton says there is a
13:34
Speaker 1: quid pro quo that suddenly makes if someone they even handed.
13:40
Speaker 1: If that's the central dispute, it's really hard to say, well, God,
13:43
Speaker 1: shouldn't we bring him in to testify? What was important?
13:46
Speaker 1: And it took a couple of days to get us
13:48
Speaker 1: there is to make clear it doesn't matter if there
13:51
Speaker 1: was a quid pro quo or not. That's not the issue.
13:54
Speaker 1: So I'm start to interrupt. There were these competing strategies.
13:58
Speaker 1: Were these two? Okay? So here's the point. You got
14:00
Speaker 1: to know who you're talking to. Lisa Murkowski is very independent.
14:05
Speaker 1: She's not going to do something because somebody tells her to.
14:08
Speaker 1: It's inconvenient. If you want a witness, that's not gonna matter.
14:12
Speaker 1: It may hurt the team if you call a witness.
14:15
Speaker 1: And Lamar loves the institution, he's about to retire. He's
14:19
Speaker 1: going to do what he thinks best. And what we
14:21
Speaker 1: try to do is explain play it out. They're playing
14:24
Speaker 1: a game here. They set us up. They could have
14:26
Speaker 1: called the witness. They chose not to because it's inconvenient.
14:29
Speaker 1: Now they're asking you to deal out Article three courts bad.
14:34
Speaker 1: So assume for a moment you had Bolton in front
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Speaker 1: of you, would it really change the outcome? Here? Does
14:39
Speaker 1: it make it an ippeachable offense for Bolton to say
14:42
Speaker 1: what he's going to say, and the answer is clearly Now.
14:45
Speaker 1: There was another argument that I think moved them quite
14:47
Speaker 1: a bit, yes, and it was that what the Democrats
14:51
Speaker 1: were trying to do if we'd have been a fifty
14:53
Speaker 1: fifty this is a big one here. The Democrats were
14:55
Speaker 1: trying to go after the US Supreme Court because if
14:58
Speaker 1: it had been fifty fifty, and we talked about this
15:01
Speaker 1: on the show last time, it's completely unclear if they
15:05
Speaker 1: would have tried to make John Roberts decide, and whatever
15:09
Speaker 1: he did, it would have been viewed through a political lens.
15:13
Speaker 1: And so look, one case that a number of us
15:15
Speaker 1: made is we're in a world where people have lost
15:18
Speaker 1: faith in Congress, they've lost faith in the presidency. And
15:22
Speaker 1: if we come through this and let the Democrats tarnish
15:26
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court two, where they lose faith in every
15:29
Speaker 1: institution of government, that that's a real problem. And Michael,
15:32
Speaker 1: I think we've got a clip here that will give
15:34
Speaker 1: an example of the Democrat's strategy. Question from Senator Warren
15:39
Speaker 1: is for the House managers at a time when large
15:43
Speaker 1: majorities of Americans have lost faith in government. Does the
15:47
Speaker 1: fact that the Chief Justice is presiding over an impeachment
15:50
Speaker 1: trial in which Republican Senators have thus far refused to
15:54
Speaker 1: allow witnesses or evidence contribute to the loss of legitimacy
15:59
Speaker 1: of the Chief Justice, the Supreme Court, and the Constitution.
16:03
Speaker 1: Now that is an insulting question. Now, Michael, I'm going
16:06
Speaker 1: to tell you something surprising. Yeah, Elizabeth Warren helped defeat
16:11
Speaker 1: the impeachment of the President of the United States. That
16:14
Speaker 1: little stunt she pulled was a campaign stunt. That was
16:18
Speaker 1: a fundraising stunt that was designed to thrill the left
16:22
Speaker 1: wing activist in the Iowa caucus. There ain't nothing else
16:25
Speaker 1: going on than that. But I'll tell you what. That
16:28
Speaker 1: stunt helped deliver the votes of Lisa and Lamar. It
16:33
Speaker 1: did because it made clear this is a political game
16:38
Speaker 1: and if John Roberts doesn't vote the way Elizabeth Warren wants,
16:42
Speaker 1: she's going to call him a political hack and throw
16:44
Speaker 1: him into politics. And it suddenly raised the price of
16:49
Speaker 1: their voting and making it fifty fifty. Because you don't
16:52
Speaker 1: want to see the court thrown into that political swamp?
16:54
Speaker 1: Do you agree with that? All you gotta do is
16:57
Speaker 1: look at her statement, she said, a fair trial and
17:00
Speaker 1: the sentence impossible because of them. This is Lisa, So
17:04
Speaker 1: her statement was that they're going to set up the
17:07
Speaker 1: Chief Justice because they hate Trump so much. So the
17:10
Speaker 1: difference between fifty one and fifties enormous. If it's fifty
17:14
Speaker 1: to fifty, then you put the Chief Justice in the
17:16
Speaker 1: crosshairs of history, you begin to corrupt the court. As
17:20
Speaker 1: Ted said, they could give a damn on the other side.
17:23
Speaker 1: They just want an outcome here. And I think it
17:25
Speaker 1: really mattered to Lamar and Lisa that Ted explained the
17:31
Speaker 1: historic nature of what the Chief Justice would be required
17:34
Speaker 1: to decide. And I think I explained, honest to God,
17:38
Speaker 1: if you believed every word of John Bolt wouldn't matter,
17:42
Speaker 1: and the truth is, it wouldn't be. A left wing
17:44
Speaker 1: attack group today put out an attack ad with John
17:47
Speaker 1: Robert Farr and a Maga Hath Yeah, and that ticked
17:51
Speaker 1: off Republican senators that helped produce the vote we had today.
17:55
Speaker 1: So you think it was just an overreach by people
17:57
Speaker 1: like Senator Warren, by these left wing groups. So what
18:00
Speaker 1: I want to know, I mean, this was a truly
18:02
Speaker 1: shocking day. What happens now, Well, I just want to
18:07
Speaker 1: fill out with what you said. It wasn't just an
18:09
Speaker 1: overreach by them. They helped. It was two senators or
18:13
Speaker 1: good people thinking it through, and Ted bringing to the
18:16
Speaker 1: table and expertise that very few people have, quite frankly,
18:20
Speaker 1: and I just try to say, listen, I try to
18:22
Speaker 1: be fair. I supported the Mueller investigation. I actually co
18:26
Speaker 1: sponsored legislation that would prevent Mueller from being fired without
18:30
Speaker 1: causing Yeah, what the thin, Well, just to tell Trump,
18:34
Speaker 1: what the hell are you thinking? If you fire this guy,
18:37
Speaker 1: you're dead. And I thought Mueller would be fair, but
18:40
Speaker 1: this whole process has not been fair. So I could say, listen, guys,
18:45
Speaker 1: it's not like I think the presence beyond being looked at.
18:48
Speaker 1: What they did in the House is dangerous to the country.
18:51
Speaker 1: It's a partisan impeach, but no due process, and we
18:54
Speaker 1: need to end it the right way. Do not make
18:56
Speaker 1: it worse. And what would make it worse is to
18:59
Speaker 1: do what d said, put the court in the crossairs
19:02
Speaker 1: of history in the wrong way. And what would make
19:04
Speaker 1: it worse is to let them go to us into
19:07
Speaker 1: calling a witness. That wouldn't matter because they think we're unfair.
19:11
Speaker 1: You've done nothing wrong here it was the other side
19:14
Speaker 1: who did something wrong well, And as a consequence, John
19:17
Speaker 1: Roberts is not in a position where he has to
19:19
Speaker 1: make any controversial rulings where they get where he's being
19:23
Speaker 1: set up to be attacked as being political. He simply
19:26
Speaker 1: he presided over a fair trial and it was the
19:29
Speaker 1: Senators who are voted. And look, we're elected to make
19:33
Speaker 1: policy decisions and political decisions and also to apply the
19:37
Speaker 1: constitutional standards, and that's what we did. In some way,
19:39
Speaker 1: it feels like we dodged a bullet if it were
19:42
Speaker 1: you have no idea. No, you dodged a candid truck. Yeah,
19:47
Speaker 1: but because really just play it out. We call witnesses.
19:51
Speaker 1: Then you're not just going to call John Bolton, You're
19:54
Speaker 1: going to have the whistleblower. Is going to be a
19:56
Speaker 1: nightmare for the country. You have all kind of issues
19:59
Speaker 1: decided by the Senate should be decided by the courts,
20:02
Speaker 1: and you would set a president that I think would
20:04
Speaker 1: make impeachment of every president in future almost a certainty.
20:07
Speaker 1: And it seemed actually in some of the arguments we
20:10
Speaker 1: heard during the trial that there was a threat there
20:13
Speaker 1: or an acknowledgement that if we continue down this path.
20:15
Speaker 1: We're going to impeach every president from now on. Well,
20:18
Speaker 1: and that remains a real risk that we've opened the
20:22
Speaker 1: door to. So how do you stop that if the
20:24
Speaker 1: House loses? And one of the reasons they lost just
20:27
Speaker 1: because they've gone crazy. Donald Trump's changed the Republican Party,
20:30
Speaker 1: but he's driven the Democratic Party completely nuts. So what
20:34
Speaker 1: would happen if President Trump gets reelected? That's exoneration. Well,
20:38
Speaker 1: and let me underscore that, because that's a very good point.
20:41
Speaker 1: I actually think Bill Clinton helped keep Barack Obama from
20:46
Speaker 1: getting impeached. So now why is that Republicans impeach? And
20:51
Speaker 1: actually Lindsay was manager, you don't reve this at home, okay,
20:56
Speaker 1: And it backfired. It it hurt Republicans, it got Bill
21:00
Speaker 1: hunt and reelected. It didn't work, and a lot of
21:02
Speaker 1: Republicans took that message. Hey, wait a second, being seen
21:06
Speaker 1: being two partisan, too aggressive of using impeachment. That's a problem.
21:10
Speaker 1: And so when it came to Obama, look, Obama on
21:13
Speaker 1: the abuse of power theory that we've heard from the
21:15
Speaker 1: House managers. Obama abused his power in many respects, and
21:19
Speaker 1: yet all of us agreed we shouldn't be impeaching Obama
21:23
Speaker 1: we should beat him at the ballot box, which we
21:24
Speaker 1: tried to do, but impeachment wasn't the right tool. If
21:28
Speaker 1: Republicans hadn't gotten burned so bad on the Clinton impeachment,
21:32
Speaker 1: there would have been some loud voices to impeach Obama.
21:35
Speaker 1: But as it was, people said, let's not go down
21:37
Speaker 1: that road. So if you want to stop partisan impeachments
21:41
Speaker 1: going forward, the best way in lindsay, you're right, I
21:43
Speaker 1: hadn't thought about it and connected it like this. The
21:46
Speaker 1: best way to stop it is for Democrats to get
21:49
Speaker 1: walloped in November, because then the next Democrats will say, okay, wow,
21:54
Speaker 1: this this impeaching business. And by the way, the Republicans
21:57
Speaker 1: will too. Well. You know, we still remember. Lamar asked
22:01
Speaker 1: a question, what's the partisan difference between Nixon, Clinton and Trump?
22:07
Speaker 1: A lot, a little nun a lot of bipartisanship for Nixon. Yeah,
22:13
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing the founders had in mind.
22:16
Speaker 1: You know, this is a constitutional death penalty for a politician.
22:19
Speaker 1: You should use exparingly. Clinton had thirty three Democrats say
22:23
Speaker 1: let's look at it, bipartisan impeachment, and Clinton basically cheated
22:28
Speaker 1: Paula Jones out of her day in court, hid evidence, perjury,
22:32
Speaker 1: you name it. You can't have the most spowerful person
22:35
Speaker 1: in the country to story a private citizen's right to
22:37
Speaker 1: have their day in court. Now Here we are with
22:40
Speaker 1: Trump bipartisan rejection of the articles of impeachment, and I
22:45
Speaker 1: think that bothered Lamar, that it was the way it
22:48
Speaker 1: was done and the outcome in the House. We don't
22:50
Speaker 1: want to be joined with Lamar on a question exactly.
22:54
Speaker 1: Lamar really rose to the occasion because what you're saying
22:57
Speaker 1: is there was a bipartisan rejection of rejection. But in
23:00
Speaker 1: terms of the people who actually voted for impeachment, it
23:02
Speaker 1: was the first time in US history you had a
23:04
Speaker 1: purely partisan impeachment. Yeah, and I hope it's the last
23:08
Speaker 1: c Clinton was in his second term Nixon resigned. If
23:12
Speaker 1: Trump wins, he'll be the first person impeached in his
23:16
Speaker 1: first term to get reelected. That will exonerate him. Now,
23:20
Speaker 1: I want to know, obviously, the impeachment hearings have been
23:23
Speaker 1: so dreary and tedious, and it's gonna be kidding me.
23:25
Speaker 1: It's you. I know, you'll admit if you're watching this podcast,
23:30
Speaker 1: you're loving this. Well, the podcast maybe c SPAN. I
23:33
Speaker 1: don't know. Well, actually people listen to this because they
23:36
Speaker 1: can't watch c SPAN for thirteen hours and it makes
23:38
Speaker 1: their eyes and ears bleed. But this way, this is
23:41
Speaker 1: somewhere between c SPAN and the trial. Was there any
23:46
Speaker 1: moment that was that had some levity to it? The
23:50
Speaker 1: some voibles? I think the funniest moment was last night,
23:54
Speaker 1: the very last of the question, sixteen hours of questions,
23:58
Speaker 1: Amy Klobuchar submits the last question ends the card down number.
24:00
Speaker 1: Once she sends the wrong card down, so the chief
24:02
Speaker 1: doesn't read it. She realizes that she screwed up. She
24:04
Speaker 1: has to run down and write her name on the car.
24:07
Speaker 1: So that starts off cracking up at that. And it's
24:11
Speaker 1: not that hard. You literally write your name on it,
24:15
Speaker 1: you know, kindergart okay, and I didn't screw up, you know,
24:21
Speaker 1: put your name on the top block letters. I think
24:23
Speaker 1: she was thinking about Iowa. Maybe she wasn't saying attention,
24:26
Speaker 1: So Phil, this is a good one. Keep going. So
24:28
Speaker 1: her question was with the house managers give a closing argument.
24:32
Speaker 1: So Adam Schiff stands up. You seem kind of puff
24:34
Speaker 1: at his chest. He starts walking forward and Jerry Nadler
24:38
Speaker 1: was sitting like four seats behind him, runs behind him,
24:41
Speaker 1: push a shift out of the leg and goes to
24:44
Speaker 1: the microphone, and and Schiff is literally going, Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.
24:49
Speaker 1: And he stands there behind Adler, I mean glaring. He
24:55
Speaker 1: wanted to punch or strangle him. These are the two
24:58
Speaker 1: how stamach right, impeachment manager that they're the leads. And
25:02
Speaker 1: Nadler just went and gave his closing arguments, and Ship
25:04
Speaker 1: stood there for a good ten seconds, and then he
25:07
Speaker 1: just sat down and glared at Nadler the whole time.
25:11
Speaker 1: And by the way, Roberts he had his reading glasses
25:14
Speaker 1: on the tip of his nose. And I know I've
25:16
Speaker 1: known John Robert twenty five years. You saw a slight smile,
25:20
Speaker 1: which for him is cracking up because they almost had
25:24
Speaker 1: a fist. This band has never smiled in his luck.
25:26
Speaker 1: So he's actually wickedly fun I know, John, You're right,
25:33
Speaker 1: he's a bring Mitch McConnell's funny in his own way.
25:38
Speaker 1: So so here's the deal. Jerry's wife is sick it. Yeah,
25:43
Speaker 1: she's got she got pinkeran it cancer. Now I'm praying
25:46
Speaker 1: for driving known him for a long time, but Jerry
25:48
Speaker 1: can throw a punch. He can take a punch. So
25:50
Speaker 1: number one shift. If Jerry Nadler's out running, you need
25:53
Speaker 1: to get in better shape. So but the deal is,
25:58
Speaker 1: it was just shocking and we were all pulling for
26:01
Speaker 1: Nadler to win the race. We'd heard enough of shifts,
26:04
Speaker 1: so Shift started good. But after about thirty hours or shift,
26:08
Speaker 1: you're ready to turn the channel. You know, it's bad
26:11
Speaker 1: when people want to hear Nadler, not not Shift. So
26:15
Speaker 1: the bottom line, here's the classic story. And I know
26:18
Speaker 1: we gotta go because y'all gotta do whatever you do
26:22
Speaker 1: in a podcast, wolf drink and drive. So here's the deal.
26:29
Speaker 1: Flipflowing shut Chumber trying to be clever. Sometimes he is.
26:34
Speaker 1: Sometimes we all fall short in this business. He invites uh,
26:40
Speaker 1: he gives his ticket to be a spectator at the
26:42
Speaker 1: trial to part us. This is crooked at Snake Guy
26:49
Speaker 1: in the Ukraine has said that I'm in on it.
26:52
Speaker 1: Lindsay Graham knew it all. And they said, have you
26:54
Speaker 1: ever talked to Lindsay Graham? No, but I heard he
26:56
Speaker 1: knew it all, so so I don't know at all.
27:00
Speaker 1: So they invite him to come. He shows up to
27:03
Speaker 1: get his ticket. He can't get in because he's got
27:06
Speaker 1: an anklet bracelet from the court. You can't mate this
27:11
Speaker 1: one up. That is you know, I almost wish the
27:14
Speaker 1: humors guess can't come into the drial couse he's got
27:17
Speaker 1: an ankle brace that's par for the course. Well, you
27:18
Speaker 1: know State of the Union. I heard Schumer's bringing Charles Manson.
27:22
Speaker 1: That'd be good. I'd be inter as anything guy's did so. Um, anyway,
27:26
Speaker 1: I've never done this before. If you're number two in
27:29
Speaker 1: the podcast world, you need to up your game because
27:32
Speaker 1: this is uber were number one. I know that. I'll
27:38
Speaker 1: take that as a compliment. Maybe, you know, speaking up,
27:42
Speaker 1: We've got to get you out of here because the
27:44
Speaker 1: senators are off. You get a couple of days off. Now,
27:47
Speaker 1: weird Union. I'm headed to Texas, Heading to Texas. Senator Graham,
27:53
Speaker 1: you're done this one in South Carolina? One last store.
27:55
Speaker 1: You know the two guys that led the Alamo, both
27:58
Speaker 1: of them are from South Carolina. What does that mean?
28:00
Speaker 1: We'll go a long way for a lost cause. And uh,
28:04
Speaker 1: I was an impeachment Maxas heroes. It would love Texas heroes.
28:07
Speaker 1: God blessed Texas. But Henry I was giving us the
28:10
Speaker 1: take the hill boys. We're gonna go over the Senate.
28:13
Speaker 1: We're gonna stand for truth, justice in the American way.
28:17
Speaker 1: You know the brave men and women at the Alamo,
28:21
Speaker 1: you know they stood their ground, and you know that's
28:25
Speaker 1: our charge, that's our charter. I said, hey, Henry, didn't
28:28
Speaker 1: they all get killed? And he says, that's that's something
28:31
Speaker 1: I ignored. But it's a good point. But he did
28:34
Speaker 1: say we're still talking about him did this day? It's true.
28:37
Speaker 1: In a final point wrapping up, there will be another
28:40
Speaker 1: bomb show. There will be an all Seen now and
28:43
Speaker 1: Havin all times too. Do you think i'mis you? Something
28:45
Speaker 1: else is coming between now and and and the verdict
28:49
Speaker 1: on impeachment that will be voted on on Wednesday. There'll
28:52
Speaker 1: be another bomb show in the New York Times probably,
28:54
Speaker 1: but something else is going because I when I when
28:56
Speaker 1: I saw it today, I just thought, Okay, it's over right.
28:59
Speaker 1: I don't need to worry about it anymore. You're saying, oh,
29:02
Speaker 1: we both were on Kavanagh and you ask what's next
29:05
Speaker 1: after this? Is that we're going to ask some hard
29:07
Speaker 1: questions State Department, Why didn't you understand this conflict? Of interest.
29:10
Speaker 1: Why didn't you do something about it. We're going to
29:13
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of the FISA warrant abuse. We're
29:15
Speaker 1: going to do all that stuff. But by the way,
29:17
Speaker 1: this is breaking news. Yeah, we cannot live in a country.
29:20
Speaker 1: So you're because a lot of questions in the mailback
29:22
Speaker 1: people are asking now, trust me, not because I actually
29:27
Speaker 1: like Joe Budden. I traveled the world with him. But
29:29
Speaker 1: you know, if it had been Mike Pence or Vice
29:32
Speaker 1: President Cheney, they'd be all over. We can't live in
29:34
Speaker 1: a world where just one side gets looked at. I
29:37
Speaker 1: don't have any animosity in my heart toward toward anyone,
29:40
Speaker 1: But the truth of the matter is you gotta have
29:42
Speaker 1: a country where the rules matter for everybody, not just
29:45
Speaker 1: President Trump. I mean not for Democrats. President Trump from
29:50
Speaker 1: the day he took office and now has gone through hell.
29:52
Speaker 1: His family's gone through hell. And I promise you to
29:55
Speaker 1: those who care, we're going to get to the bottom
29:57
Speaker 1: of barisma because it's important we find doubt about Bison.
30:00
Speaker 1: But we're going to find out how could you an
30:02
Speaker 1: issue a warrant four times against an American citizen. Here's
30:05
Speaker 1: the world if Trump goes to a Russian restaurant to
30:08
Speaker 1: have dinner. He's a Russian. Yeah, you know, and you
30:12
Speaker 1: know you can have three million dollars paid to your
30:14
Speaker 1: son in the Ukraine and nobody cares. Now if President
30:17
Speaker 1: Trump gets acquitted, you're saying, the Senate Republicans are not
30:20
Speaker 1: going to give up on this. What can be done
30:22
Speaker 1: over to get to the bottom of Jim Rash's Chairman
30:25
Speaker 1: of Foreign Relations community. The first witness I want to
30:27
Speaker 1: call is John Carey's chiefest staff. When you were told
30:31
Speaker 1: that there was a conflict of interest by John Carey
30:34
Speaker 1: steps on, who is their business partner? Why don't you
30:36
Speaker 1: do something about it? And last I checked, both you
30:39
Speaker 1: and I are on foreign relations. Last time I checked,
30:41
Speaker 1: we're on judiciary and we're on foreign relations. This is
30:45
Speaker 1: the beginning of a day of reckoning. This is not
30:49
Speaker 1: the beginning of the end. Maybe the end of the
30:51
Speaker 1: beginning we're moving on. Is the end of the podcast.
30:54
Speaker 1: And at the end of the one thing I want
30:56
Speaker 1: to know before we let you get out of here
30:58
Speaker 1: and hop onto a plane. One last is I noticed
31:01
Speaker 1: it's much earlier tonight. Usually we're here at two o'clock
31:04
Speaker 1: in the morning. It's only eleven o'clock at night. Why
31:07
Speaker 1: is it that Mitch McConnell that all these senators are
31:10
Speaker 1: letting people get out of here so early? Was there
31:13
Speaker 1: some I think the Democrats wanted to go to Iowa?
31:16
Speaker 1: The Democrats three democrat jumping to go to Iowa. Did
31:21
Speaker 1: you talk to any of your colleagues? Were they well,
31:25
Speaker 1: you know, let's look at it this way. I'm not married,
31:28
Speaker 1: So why can't you get everything done the way you
31:31
Speaker 1: want it? I'll let Ted answer that question. We've got
31:34
Speaker 1: one hundred people in the Senate. Everybody has different agendas.
31:37
Speaker 1: But Monday, so Sunday's super Bowl, right Monday is the
31:42
Speaker 1: Iowa Caucus. Tuesdays the State of the Union. Bottom line is,
31:45
Speaker 1: this is the best Mitch could do. And I think
31:47
Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell did a brilliant job handle of this. I
31:50
Speaker 1: really do bets on the Super Bowl before we go. Look,
31:52
Speaker 1: I'm rooting for the Chiefs just because they beat the
31:55
Speaker 1: Texans and so on that principle. If they go on
31:57
Speaker 1: to win it all, I get to say the Texans
32:00
Speaker 1: the second best in in my reckond puem for the Falcons.
32:03
Speaker 1: There we are, that's our show, that's the that's the
32:05
Speaker 1: final verdict on the Super Bowl. We've got a whole
32:08
Speaker 1: lot more coming out. I'm Michael knowles on, behalf of
32:15
Speaker 1: Senator Lindsey Graham, so gracious to spend the night in
32:17
Speaker 1: our bunker over here. Yeah, this is Verdict with Ted Cruz.
32:29
Speaker 1: This episode of Verdict with Ted Cruz is being brought
32:32
Speaker 1: to you by Jobs, Freedom and Security Pack, a political
32:35
Speaker 1: action committee dedicated to supporting conservative causes, organizations, and candidates
32:40
Speaker 1: across the country. In twenty twenty two, Jobs, Freedom and
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