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Leading Differently Together | "Prophets" With Cath Livesey · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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As prophets, we we maintain that soft
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heart at the center of church, really grounded in community rather than
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being that critical voice on the edge of church. We wanna be fully grounded
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in community, then we have so much to offer the church.
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What does loving your neighbor actually look like?
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This is Journey with Cath, where curious Canadians get inspired
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to love others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations.
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Hey, Curious Sojourner. We're continuing in our series, Leading
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Differently Together. I'm so glad you're on this journey with me as we
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meet up with some fascinating people who are living in their sweet spots.
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In Ephesians 41112, it says, God gives some to
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be apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers
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to equip the saints for the work of the ministry for building up the
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body of Christ. And today, we're gonna get curious about the
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prophetic. What do you think of when you hear that word? Across
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denominations and diverse experiences, prophecy can take a
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lot of heat and a lot of fanfare. But what makes
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something actually prophetic and what may seem
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something, well, pathetic? Stick around. I think you're gonna love
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today's episode as we explore what the Bible has to say about it
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and what it means for us here in Canada. I'm your host, Wendy
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Park, joined by producer Johan Hinrichs. And in studio today, we have
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a special guest all the way from the UK, Cath Livesey,
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founder of Accessible Prophecy and author of Holy
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Disruption, My Sheep Have Ears, and the prophecy course.
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Cath, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's great to be
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here. Cath, you work with churches around the world and
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including Canada and have a passion for nurturing a
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healthy prophetic culture. And I've actually sat in one of your workshops and
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was blown away by how down to Cath and truly accessible
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you made the topic of prophecy. Can you take me on a a
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brief tour of your personal story? How did you get
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to understanding prophecy and the prophetic in
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such a personal accessible way. Like, you can't make those things
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up. Sure. Well, I guess for me, it has been a
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long, slow journey. I became a Christian
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many, many years ago. And in those 1st years,
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it was all about the bible and, you know, I was discipled
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well. But it was only when I turned up at university and
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people started to talk about the holy spirit and the gifts of the
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spirit that I really learned anything
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about prophecy. And I guess since then, I was just
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intrigued. I was fascinated with this idea that, yeah,
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almighty god, creator of the heavens and Cath, might actually wanna
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talk to me, not just through the eternal words of the
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bible, but God might wanna talk to me in the here and
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now about what's going on for me here and now. And I think
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alongside that, I've always known, I've always had
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this deep, deep intuitive knowledge that God is so
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much better and so much closer than we can
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think or imagine. I've always been absolutely
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intrigued by God and just a passion to
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to get closer and closer and closer. So I think
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these sorts of things have been just key markers for
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me, things that have prompted me to dig deeper.
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In in my early days of exploring the prophetic, to be honest, there weren't
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that many helpful books out there. You had to
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search quite hard to find trustworthy guides.
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And I think that's why I've just got such a
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passion for helping every single Christian learn how
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to hear God's voice because way back when I was starting off,
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there weren't that many faithful guides around. Yeah. I
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was curious about that because when I was sitting in your course, and I've also
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read your book, the holy disruption, which is excellent, by the way, and we're
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gonna include that link in the show notes. I I think people here
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will definitely wanna read through that. But I
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was curious because when I was sitting there, it wasn't information that
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seemed apparently from a particular denomination. It
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felt like for the whole church. And and that got me
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curious about your upbringing and how you came to understand
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your own prophetic voice, and was that nurtured as a young
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child? But you said you you really had to seek
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answers for that truth? Yeah. I I guess
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I've got quite an ecumenical approach. I was brought
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up in the Anglican church in the the the Church of England.
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As a student, I I went to a Baptist church.
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Then when we got married, we spent a long time in what you could
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Cath, like, a free church or a house church. So Mhmm. I yeah. I
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have a real passion for the global body of Christ.
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And I think sometimes the prophetic has
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been seen to be something just for the charismatic.
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But I passionately believe that that this ministry,
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this authentic prophetic lifestyle, it's for every
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expression, every denomination, every stream. And, yeah,
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in in my experience here in Canada too, as I I have had
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some meaningful conversations with Catholic as well as
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charismatic and everything in between, conservative,
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there seems to be a resonance. If we understood
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what actually and we're gonna dive into what we're talking about by the
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biblical understanding of prophecy and the prophetic. I
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seem to hear those voices from within those denominations,
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god speaking and and listening to God's voice. And in
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your book, you also talk about the contemplative
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and also the charismatic, and both can be true. But
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sometimes we may pigeonhole it in 1 or the other, and we may misunderstand
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the full depth of how God really connects
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with with his church. Yeah. And I think one of the key things I
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wanted to do in the book was to take
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that 30,000 foot perspective on the prophetic
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and, you know, to help everybody regardless of their of their denominational
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background see the bigger picture. And, yeah,
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absolutely, there's riches and depths in the charismatic
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tradition, but there's also, you know, incredible wisdom
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in the contemplative tradition. And then you have what you could call
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more of a social justice expression of the prophetic,
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which is really important for for some churches.
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And what I want every church to do is to learn from all these
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different approaches and to get a holistic,
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big picture understanding of the prophetic and and what it means
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to faithfully follow the voice of God, both on
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a church wide perspective, but as individual Christians.
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So, you know, in terms of the fivefold,
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whether you're apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, or teacher,
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we can all learn what you could call prophetic intelligence. You
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can we can all learn just as a normal everyday
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Christian how to listen for the voice of God,
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how to pay attention to God's voice, how to
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discern the particular ways that the Holy Spirit gets our
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attention and and talks to us. And this is for
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every single follower of Jesus. Are you describing
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the mission of accessible prophecy in what you just said there? Is
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that your goal and intent? Yeah. Definitely. We have a
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twofold vision. So first of all, it is to help every Christian
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learn how to hear God's voice, to live in the reality of John
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chapter 10 where Jesus says, 4 times, my sheep
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hear my voice, and we're the sheep, and and Jesus is speaking,
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Jesus is still speaking. So that's the first part of our vision. The second
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part of our vision is to help every single
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church develop a healthy prophetic culture.
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So, yeah, it's the individual, but it's also the church.
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And you do have a small presence here in Canada as well on the East
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Coast that are meeting. I think it's prophetic huddles. Is that what we call
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it? Yeah. Definitely. So we have a
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team, the Accessible Prophecy Canada team. They're
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currently based in Nova Scotia, but slowly
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growing, doing online,
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opportunities like webinars, doing some in person
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events. But the main offering are what we call these
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online coaching huddles, prophetic coaching huddles, which are
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small cohorts of 3 or 4 or 5 people with one of our
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trained coaches who go on this deep dive into,
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what it looks like to develop that authentic, mature, holistic,
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prophetic lifestyle. So do check out Accessible Prophecy
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Canada. Yeah. And we'll include the, link in
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the show notes, and I just love that there's a way for it to
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be nurtured because sometimes when we don't have that language within
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their church or maybe it's it's a foreign concept for us to find other
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people more mature in the faith, in those
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giftings to guide us along, I think, is is such a beautiful thing of the
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body of Christ. We're no longer bound by geography anymore,
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and, we can connect, the the body of Christ
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over online or and in person. I'd like to dive into
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what we're meaning by the word prophecy and the prophetic. Can
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you demystify that for me And and for our listeners, what do
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we mean by prophecy? Absolutely.
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And I think this demystification
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yeah, there's potentially a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings
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around the prophetic. Some people just wanna run away
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from it, have nothing to do with with this ministry. So
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I'm all for simple, straightforward definitions.
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So prophecy, very simply, is hearing God
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speaking and repeating what he says. And particularly
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when we look at the new testament, we see in
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Paul's writings this thing called the gift of prophecy.
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And what we notice is it's not, an exclusive
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gift just for the very anointed ones or for leaders.
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But, you know, Paul invites all of us to
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eagerly pursue spiritual gifts, especially
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prophecy. And he goes on to talk about how the gift of prophecy
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is for people's strengthening encouragement and comfort.
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So it sounds like a fantastic gift that each and
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every one of us wanna be pursuing. I I like to talk
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about how, you know, we all have a spiritual toolkit.
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And no matter what our main calling or gifting is, we all have this
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spiritual toolkit. And prophecy, the gift of prophecy, is a fantastic
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tool to have in your toolkit that you can pull out at any
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time to strengthen and encourage and comfort people.
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So so that's a simple definition of prophecy. When it then
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comes to the word prophet because, goodness me, that's a word that we
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need to demystify. And, of course, there's an
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old testament understanding of the word, but
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we also find prophets in the new testament.
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And Ephesians 411 tells us that Christ has given
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prophets to his church. So it's not just an old testament
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role. It's something for the new covenant church of God.
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And I really think we need to grasp a new testament
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perspective. Yeah. The old testament's helpful, but we can end up with some
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stereotypes. So let's fix our attention on a new
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testament perspective and let's fix our attention on how
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Jesus himself walked in that prophetic role because
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Jesus is our best role model. He's our ultimate prophet. The
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way I, again, simply define a prophet is
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it's somebody with a particular calling and
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wiring to stay attuned to
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God's hearts and to help keep the church
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aligned with God's purposes. And I would
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also say that prophets, they're wired for
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both worship and warfare. And what I mean by that
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is, first of all, you know, prophets have such a heart
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for worship that their passion is the heart of God. They want to help
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everybody draw closer to God. They wanna help
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curate and cultivate a worshipful culture
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in the church. And they're not looking for just status quo
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either. Right? Oh, no. Goodness. Like your book, like, they're disruptors
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in a holy sense, drawing us back to the father's heart Yeah.
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Which is which is beautiful. Absolutely. So there's
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that real call and drive for
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worship and alongside that, you know, challenging any idolatry.
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But then prophets are wired for warfare.
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And what I mean by that, yeah, part of it is spiritual warfare
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because prophets are very kind of spiritually sensitive.
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Prophets often are the first to take note of
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any any signs of spiritual unhealth in
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the body. You know, it's a question we're always asking as prophets, are we
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healthy or are we unhealthy? So there's Cath of like
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spiritual warfare, intercession side of things, but there's also the broader
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perspective of looking out on the world
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through God's eyes. And where
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does the church need to have that
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voice? You know, what strongholds need pulling down? What
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areas of injustice need challenging? That's a
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part of the prophet's perspective on warfare. So, yeah,
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worship and warfare. So they're kind of like a
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chiropractor would bring into alignment the skeleton of the body when there's some
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there's a dissonance or a wheel alignment. You're gonna go off to the side of
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the road if you keep going like this, and they they keep tuning us back
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into alignment. And, they're keenly aware of
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those things that are brought to our attention. Absolutely.
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Absolutely. How is a prophetic voice
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edifying? And when we look at, Ephesians 41112,
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it's for building up, for edification of the body. In
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what ways are you seeing churches embrace not just
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solely the prophetic now we're gonna just focus on prophecy. We're we're looking at the
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5 fold. How have you seen the prophetic
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really edify and build up a body of Christ that maybe with other
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giftings that are sitting around that table or sitting in in a
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congregation, how are you seeing it at its best in its health
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edifying the body of Christ? Yeah. I I think the 5
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fold perspective, the APES perspective is absolutely key. We never want the
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And we're gonna get the healthiest church when all 5
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are working really, really well together. And as I work with
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churches around the world, I am very much helping
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them cultivate that servant hearted attitude when it comes to
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the prophetic. So it's not about me and my gifts.
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It's, well, how do we channel these
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particular gifts to help build up everybody? There's a
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brilliant verse in Acts where Luke
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describes 2 prophets in the early church, Judas and Silas,
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and it's just a little sentence. And and Luke says that
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Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to
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encourage and strengthen the believers. And that's
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a little perspective on the the
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great strength and health that prophets were bringing to the
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early church. And I think when we help prophets
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get this broader perspective on who they're called to be,
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on what they bring to the church. So, yeah, part of it is about bringing
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the word of God, but it's about equipping
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everybody in the church to hear God. You know, I would say, in in some
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ways, that's the number one role of the prophet, to help every single
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person learn how to hear God's voice in the same way that the role of
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an evangelist, yes, is to go out and win win souls for Jesus, but
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it's the role of the evangelist in the church is to help us all
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learn how to be bold in sharing our faith. So, yeah,
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equipping the body, listening on behalf of the
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body, being prepared to challenge the status quo.
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And when it's done in a humble, gentle,
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accountable way, you know, we we need to ensure that there's there's good
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accountability, there's good channels of communication,
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that as prophets, we we maintain that
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soft heart at the center of church, really grounded in community
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rather than being that critical voice on the edge of church, we wanna be fully
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grounded in community, then we have so much
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to to offer the church. And I guess in in health, at
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in maturation of the prophetic gifting, one
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would need to develop that
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love for the church and to say things in love, to direct
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people in love, even in in some some of the
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harsher things that would bring alignment, that would be
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disruptive in the sense of, like, calling people back into worship,
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calling people back into even social gaps in
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the community. They see things. They hear things. They have ear to the ground, not
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only to God, but I also see it active in ear to
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the community. And what are we hearing within the community? Where is
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God wanting the church to be in alignment with God? I'm just
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wondering, how do you see that play out in the
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to full maturation? I guess we're always maturing, but what is that
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like to to see that mature? Yeah. I
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mean, just a few things I'd wanna share there.
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So I always encourage profits I'm working with to
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work really hard on their communication skills. And what I'll often say
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is you can have the most remarkable, you
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know, mind blowing vision or word from the Lord. But if you
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can't communicate it in a way that people will listen,
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pretty much wasted. So for some
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prophets, it's about learning succinct, effective
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communication. And again, you know, keeping their hearts
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soft, learning how to speak with gentleness,
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learning how to speak really, really effectively. So, you know, the whole communication
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piece can be actually the the one thing that
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truly, truly makes the difference. I'll often
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say to prophets, ask God who your apostle
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is in this season. And I've been so
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blessed over the years as I have, you know, developed my own
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prophetic ministry that God's always provided me with an apostle.
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You know, the the prophetic and the apostolic, they really need
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each other. They really, really need each other. And as prophets,
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we have so much to learn from the apostolic because what
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and turning it into something real and lived and
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applicable. So learning the way of the
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apostle, learning really good application
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from the apostle can do so much to mature,
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prophetic ministry. But that's true of the whole fivefold. So, you know,
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as prophets, we need to be learning from the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers as
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well. Yeah. I think that is really valuable to to put into
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perspective. And I I think some of the pushback that
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I've observed within church's
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experience of the prophetic, some of the pushback might be
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this wariness towards what could be considered false
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prophecy or these whimsical ideas that are
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maybe even a way of manipulation and sometimes has been a way
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of manipulation of how God told me to say this to the church and
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thus saith the lord. And we will see extremes in any of this
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fight. We have to have discernment. Correct? But how do we
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discern what is of God and what is not? When
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somebody comes, regardless may may not even know their
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maturity in the Lord, but how do we discern the
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prophetic voice? Yeah. Absolutely. I and I think
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that the gift of discernment is an absolutely
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vital gift for the church, particularly in the days that we're all
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living through. So I encourage people
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that I'm mentoring and discipling to be asking God for the
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gift of discernment every day. That's something I try and do. The
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bible is very clear. The new testaments are very clear when it comes to
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prophecy that all prophecy needs to be weighed and
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tested and discerned. And the new testament says that repeatedly.
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So how do we discern? And I think first of
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all, we we discern from the character and nature
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of God. We, of course, discern from the
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bible. Something that I'll often say to people is listen for the
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voice that is kind. Listen for the voice that is kind, that is
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full of life and light and that reflects Jesus?
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And does this sound like Jesus? There are a lot
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of voices out there. And today, you know,
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through YouTube and and and every other platform,
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there are a 1,000 and one prophetic voices we could listen
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to. But which one reflects the voice of Jesus? Which one
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sounds like Jesus? And I think the more we are
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walking with God, the more we are circling ourselves in the
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bible, in the written word, the easier it is to
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discern. Yeah. The more we're we're walking with the Holy Spirit and asking for the
22:24
Holy Spirit's help and discernment, the easier it becomes.
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I think there's good practice when it comes to the
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prophetic. And if, you know, a stranger just
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rocks up with this completely out of nowhere prophetic
22:40
word, then there are gonna be a lot of hoops
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that, you know, that word is gonna have to jump through before we would say
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this is the voice of God. You know, we we have to
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equip everybody in our churches to weigh and test really, really
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well. Just because you hear some prophet
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on YouTube say this or that or the other does not mean
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that you are hearing a true revelation, a true word of
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prophecy that's come that has come from God's heart. There are questions we can ask
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in terms of, well, who's this person accountable to? Is this
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person part of a a a 5 fold
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team? You know, there are lots of questions that we can ask as we look
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for good practice, good wise practice in
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the prophetic. And I think that's a beautiful example of why we wanna weigh
23:29
in to the 5 fold because there might be a pastoral gift, a teaching gift
23:30
that would discern and bring scripture to the pastoral gift, a teaching gift that would
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discern and bring scripture to light or bring a
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nurture awareness to their congregation if it is kind, if it
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is edifying, it is it is true of god. I think in
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my understanding and growth in the prophetic,
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I also have to realize I cannot always
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hear to the minutest detail what god is exactly saying.
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He's not downloading a recipe. Sometimes he does. He's not
24:00
giving me a formula of exactly what to do, but we need the apostolic
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to to go out and try anyway, to to venture out and
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to to have a a different sense
24:11
of how to move forward with that word. I'm curious,
24:15
though, as we've developed Care Impact and
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been formed by not only what God has spoken to us
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in dreams and vision and and what we're hearing from the church and the
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needs that need to fill in the gap, which is a very prophetic
24:29
role to see between social services and the church, and
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how do we bring the church into the community as Jesus has
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called us to be good neighbors. And our whole motto is making
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helping strangers become good neighbors. One of the things that
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I've been hearing that has shaped some of what I've understood, even
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Jesus in scripture, is listening to those
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that I don't always listen to right in the community they've actually
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been a prophetic voice in my life as I've welcomed. Do you
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know that the verse where it says to welcome, be hospitable to
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strangers for sometimes unknowingly you are
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hosting angels. Also, the word is messengers. And
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maybe not angels with the the fluttery wings and halo sense, but
25:15
bringing in strangers, they've actually had words for me
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and helped me understand scripture and brought me into alignment.
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Is that a thing? Because I I feel like sometimes we can keep
25:26
the prophetic right in the walls of the institution of the
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church and have this Kumbaya mountaintop experience,
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but I feel often in our work that there's a dissonance
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with what people are saying, what God is saying through people and and through
25:41
circumstances and calling the church to be relevant. Can you
25:45
speak to any of that? Does it even make sense? Sure.
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I think that as each of us
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pursues a tuned in lifestyle,
25:56
a day by day walk with Jesus, where we
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are creating enough pause to pay attention to
26:04
God throughout the day, recognizing that, you know, we'll
26:07
hear God in different ways. But we are slowing down. We're
26:11
paying attention. We are seeking to look
26:15
at the world around us, to look at the community, the neighborhood around us through
26:19
the eyes of Jesus. We are whenever we leave the church
26:22
building, whenever we leave our front door, we are going out with the
26:26
Holy Spirit to keep in step with the spirit, then God can speak in
26:30
all sorts of ways, very much through
26:34
unexpected channels. I guess he did it through donkeys. Right?
26:38
Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, I think this is a mistake that
26:41
we've made. We've put a straight jacket on the prophetic.
26:45
We've thought, well, it's gonna look like this. But, actually, you know,
26:49
we can't put God in a box. We cannot constrain the Holy Spirit.
26:54
And that's part of the this beautiful journey we all go
26:57
on as we really pay attention to the different ways
27:01
that God talks to us. You know, for some people, God is
27:05
very much talking through through nature. For some of us,
27:09
it'll be just the voices we hear out and about in in our
27:12
community, but let's pay attention. Let's walk slowly
27:16
enough so that we can discern what god is
27:19
saying through some surprising avenues.
27:23
Cath, I'd love to read just an excerpt from your book.
27:27
Hopefully, people can can get it on Amazon or wherever they buy their
27:30
books to read it for themselves, but you you wrap up
27:34
the prophetic in a really beautiful way on page
27:38
Wendi. The church of Jesus Christ needs to reclaim
27:42
its prophetic identity and rediscover its prophetic voice, a
27:45
voice that speaks hope to the hopeless, that calls for transformation
27:49
across spheres of human experience and that is more than
27:53
capable of standing up to tyranny and oppression. A
27:56
voice that originates in the heart of our utterly free, powerful,
28:00
and compassionate God. The father who chooses to reach
28:04
out to humanity crafted in his image and make himself
28:07
known. A voice that is carried on by the winds of the
28:11
spirit to every corner of the globe, ready to be perceived
28:15
by all who take time to listen. This earth shattering
28:19
paradigm shifting yet tender voice cannot be appropriated
28:23
for human agendas or ideologies. The prophets
28:27
of old were overwhelmed by it as they allowed the
28:30
word of Yahweh to be wholly incarnated in their lives.
28:35
Prophets today can learn to thrive in the profound depths of this
28:38
voice as they teach the church to discern and carry it.
28:42
The voice to be rediscovered is the voice of love.
28:46
The prophetic is the love language of God of relationship
28:50
and revelation. I think that's just profound. It it sort of
28:54
sums up some of what we've been talking about, but there is so much
28:58
more to dive into. Cath, as we conclude
29:01
this conversation, are there any practical next steps that you
29:05
might be able to offer me and and my listeners here
29:09
in Canada to to grow in the prophetic?
29:13
Sure. Well, a really, really simple
29:17
next step that any of us can do is
29:21
perhaps to commit, say, over the next 4 or 5
29:24
days, just to find 5 minutes
29:28
in your day. That's all you need to find, 4 or 5 minutes.
29:32
And go somewhere or find somewhere
29:37
where you're not gonna get distracted, so turn off your phone,
29:40
maybe go for a walk, and just
29:44
practice being still in God's
29:47
presence. And for some of us, you know, our minds are going at a 100
29:50
miles an hour. It it's it's really challenging to do that.
29:54
But just practice being still in God's presence.
29:58
And then maybe choose one of your favorite
30:02
bible verses and just meditate on it
30:06
and say to God, father, what do you wanna say to me today
30:10
through this verse? And just give yourself a few minutes
30:14
just to do the pause, to do the stillness, to do the
30:18
meditation, and welcome whatever revelation God might wanna
30:21
bring. Maybe God will remind you of another bible verse. Maybe a
30:25
little simple picture will pop into your head. Maybe you'll
30:29
discern some words from the father. But it's
30:33
just creating that moment of pause in your busy day
30:36
to step back, enjoy God's presence, and be
30:40
open to however he might want to talk to you. And that's something that we
30:44
can all do. Well, that's something I'm gonna try to do this
30:47
next week. And on that note, I wanna encourage people, if
30:51
you're wanting help to pray along with these things and and be
30:55
challenged, join our journey with prayer. We we
30:58
offer that every Monday. It's a reflective, contemplative
31:02
prayer that we put out there from from the Friday's episode.
31:06
We have that every Monday if you would like to to journey in
31:09
prayer with us to follow along on Wendi. But thank you, Cath, for
31:13
taking time for this beautiful conversation, this needed
31:16
conversation, and I wanna encourage our listeners to stay
31:20
tuned as we uncover all the stories from the different
31:24
fivefold giftings. Thank you so much, Cath. Thank
31:27
you. Thank you. It's been great.
31:31
Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Cath, where
31:35
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31:38
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32:16
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