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On the Other Side of the Couch: What I Learned Losing My Mom · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to what I think is going to be a very,
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very special episode of The Virtual Couch Presents.
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And most likely you'll hear this one on both or either The Virtual Couch as
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well as waking up to narcissism.
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So before I get to that, I will make the business items hopefully brief.
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Email me why you think so and what's going on in your life.
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Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee, as we set sail out of Galveston.
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And it is going to be an amazing cruise focused on living an incredible life.
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We'll talk about all kinds of things, mental health, not in an awkward way with
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see me and ask me all of your questions about everything,
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marriage and family and parenting and ADHD and emotional maturity.
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All of it, but just come with a soft serve cone in hand. But we would love to have you join us.
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And so let's get to today's show.
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And please understand that I am here to share and possibly entertain a little
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bit, but not to diagnose.
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So please find a good therapist, because I think that is truly what matters the most.
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Now, I haven't talked much publicly about this, but on July 13th of this year,
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so a little over two months ago, my mom passed away.
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She was 77 years old. And so today I'm going to replay an interview that I did
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with my good friend, Tricia Jameson.
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She's host of the Q&A Files podcast, where I normally join her.
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She's a board-certified functional nutritionist and her husband, Dr.
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Jeff, who is a board-certified family physician. And we tackle all kinds of
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questions from listeners and articles on mental health and physical health and
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nutritional health, all those things.
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And Tricia asked me shortly after my mom died if I was open to talking about
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it or when I might be open to talking about it.
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And I really was open to talking about it pretty fairly soon after.
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And I even wrote down a whole bunch of things and I recorded a little bit,
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but then I just never did anything with the recording.
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So I'm excited to share this with you. I think it's a really raw conversation
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that I wanted to bring to my listeners because so many of you have been there
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through the last decade plus of putting out podcasts.
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And it's that odd thing where the therapist doesn't, as much as I'm talking
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about myself on the podcast, there's still a part of me that doesn't let people in too much.
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So I thought that this was something I really wanted to share.
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But before I get to that, I do want to start with a story. I am a licensed marriage
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and family therapist, which is going to matter here in just a little bit,
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because it is important to note that it is not the same as a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
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If I'm being honest, well, first of all, I do get confused for both pretty regularly
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where some of my own clients will say something about, well,
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you know, I told them that Dr.
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Overbay said, I'm thinking, man, who is this Dr. Overbay that shares my name?
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And I'm not even sure who they are, but I'll hear those things and I will normally try to correct those.
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And to be fair, before I was halfway through graduate school,
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I honestly wasn't totally sure what the difference was either between a therapist
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and a psychiatrist and a psychologist. So let me clarify, because I think it will come into play.
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A licensed marriage and family therapist, an LMFT like myself,
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typically earns their undergraduate degree in a subject, maybe psychology.
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Mine was actually in mass communications with an emphasis in public relations.
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And while I never declared a minor, I did take several psychology classes as
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well as a sociology class or two. and I really enjoyed them.
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I absolutely loved them. But at that time, I didn't really even think that one
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could make their living doing therapy.
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But to be an LMFT after you get your undergraduate degree or your bachelor's
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degree, or at least I'll kind of go down my path.
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But I went on to get my master's degree in counseling.
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And that took a couple of years. And then from there, I completed a clinical
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internship, which was about 3,000 hours of supervised therapy work.
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Before then, I could sit for two licensing exams. And you pass them.
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And it's rigorous. And it can be stressful.
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But it doesn't make me a doctor.
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A clinical psychologist, on the other hand, goes beyond the master's degree.
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That I earned, and they get a doctoral degree, which can be two, three years more.
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And that's where they get their PhD or their PsyD, meaning a doctorate in psychology.
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So yes, they are doctors, but probably not the kind that you want to stand up
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when somebody yells, is there a doctor on this plane?
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And then there's a psychiatrist, and that's a legitimate medical doctor who
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went to medical school and did rounds and probably set a few bones and maybe
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even delivered a baby before deciding that they wanted to focus on the mind.
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That is the kind of doctor who prescribes medication and manages very complex
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mental health conditions from a medical perspective.
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And I would definitely rather have them saying, I am a doctor.
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If somebody yells, is there a doctor on this airplane before the doctor of psychology? No offense.
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So again, very clearly, I'm not a doctor, but for as long as I can remember,
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my mom, bless her heart, believed I was a doctor and not just any vague,
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proud parent sort of way.
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She really did think that I was a full-blown white coat wearing stethoscope,
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toting, prescription writing doctor.
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And not that long ago, even she bought me this really cool pen light that she
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thought that I would like for when I needed to dilate somebody's pupils or maybe
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even look down their throat, which are not things that I do.
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I've never actually dilated a pupil if I'm being honest, But I've definitely
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tried to look down my own throat.
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Google tonsil stones or what we refer to in my home as throat peanuts.
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Or honestly, don't because you'll either realize they have a name and kind of
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one of those if you know, you know kind of things.
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Or you'll never be able to unsee what you're about to see.
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And never, ever smash them between your fingers. Because if you thought getting
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the smell of onions off your fingers was difficult.
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Anyway, maybe that was something. Maybe this whole thing I should edit out this part.
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But I'm not going to. But back to the story. So no, no amount of explaining
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that I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist could ever quite override
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the story to my mom that her baby boy is a doctor.
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And she would say with total conviction, well, you're the doctor, you should know.
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I remember one time her asking me if a medication was a blood thinner or something like a sleep aid.
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And I tried to gently clarify and she cut me off with, okay,
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no, I'm asking you, you're the doctor, just tell me. And another time,
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I disagreed with her about a piece of advice that she had given someone in my
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family, and then she even raised an eyebrow and said, well, that surprises me coming from a doctor.
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So eventually, I stopped trying to correct her, because it really didn't matter.
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That was her story, and I guess in a way, it was her truth.
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Now, fast forward to just a few months ago, it was maybe a month or a month
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and a half before she passed, and she was first admitted into the ICU,
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and it was looking really touch and go.
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Her lungs were full of fluid, and she was really struggling to breathe,
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and it was this start of what became her transition to hospice.
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Now, when I arrived at the ICU, we weren't sure that she would make it through
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the first couple of days.
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She was on almost 100% oxygen, and speaking was really, really difficult.
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And so I come into the room, my dad's in there and we're talking and I'm watching my mom's struggle.
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And it was really, it was, it was difficult to see. The doctor walked in shortly after.
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So my dad started talking to the doctor about my mom's condition.
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And then from across the room through her oxygen mask and just sheer will and
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determination, my mom pulls the mask off and says, Lynn, let Tony talk to him. He's the doctor.
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And my back was to her and the real doctor looked at me and he was clearly unsure of what to say.
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And I just smiled and said, I'm not actually a doctor. I'm a marriage therapist.
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And what was just so fun in real time, that real doctor replied,
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I could probably use you. And I just said, yeah, you probably could.
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A lot of my clients are from hospital staff and we shared a good chuckle.
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But again, I'm not a doctor.
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Later, I shared that moment with our family group chat with my kids.
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And I added that when the nurse was being firm with my mom about keeping her
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oxygen mask on, I really thought my mom was going to go right there.
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She was so determined to talk. And then I shared with them, well,
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you know, at least grandma would have died doing something that she loved,
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talking and telling somebody that they're wrong.
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So it was at that moment, my mom pulling off her oxygen mask to advocate,
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I guess for me, reminded me of this story I heard from another therapist,
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but it hit me so hard that I haven't been able to stop thinking about it.
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And I just wanted to share it.
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It's as if I could have seen this thing happening to me.
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And I'm certainly not recommending anybody do what I'm about to describe,
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which this therapist did without guidance from a hospice team.
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However, this moment became one of the most oddly fitting and meaningful gifts
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that this therapist had ever received from his mom.
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And again, if I'm being honest, I very much identified with this story very,
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very deeply as if this were my very own story.
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As if I could have seen it playing out in my own life in precisely the same
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situation in the exact same way.
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Had this been my own experience. But if it had been my own experience,
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of course, I would not want to share it as my experience because I would have
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hated for anyone at the board and care facility that I will describe who were
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doing their best to take care of people during their final days to get in any kind of trouble.
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Even if this story was exactly true and if hypothetically it was mine,
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which I'm saying it isn't.
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So let's just say that this therapist's mom had also spent the better part of
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the last few years believing that he too was a doctor. So imagine that, the coincidence.
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For this guy, same. Not in a cute, symbolic way. She really thought he had his MD.
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And anytime he tried to correct her, she'd wave him off with something like,
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well, you're the doctor, you should know. And so then he too eventually stopped
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trying to correct her. Okay, I think you get the point.
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As her health declined, she was eventually transferred from the hospital to
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a boarding care facility, one exactly like my mom's.
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The kind of small home-style setting where hospice patients receive end-of-life
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care, just like the one that my mom ended up in. And this therapist and his
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father and the therapist's wife were there bedside for her final days again,
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which crazy is exactly like it was in my situation.
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And his mother also became incoherent in her last few days.
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Now, because she had told all the caregivers that her son was a doctor well
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before her son, the therapist, not a doctor had arrived.
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The staff believed her that her son was a doctor.
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So when that therapist arrived to sit with his mother before she eventually
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became incoherent because he would travel back to that location every couple
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of weeks. He'd kept his practice in that area.
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The staff would come in on occasion, and his mother would introduce him as her son, the doctor.
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And you could just see the pride that radiated from her in those final days.
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And so the son, he just rolled with it.
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As the end drew near and his mom faded into incoherence, the hospital staff
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was at the point in this end-of-life care where they were just managing her
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pain. It was just that, pure and simple.
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And so she started to receive liquid morphine as they prepared for the very end.
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Now, a day or two before she passed, her breathing was beginning to get very, very agitated.
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And that was the cue for them to give her more of this liquid morphine,
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this medication for pain.
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Because she was starting to exhibit symptoms of more and more severe pain.
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And in this one particular situation, it was really clear that she needed another
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dose of the liquid morphine. But there was a problem.
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There weren't any of these pre-filled syringes ready, and the nurse wasn't on site.
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But the caregiver turned to the son and said, hey, we're in a little bit of a jam.
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We need a nurse or a doctor to fill the syringes. And well, you are a doctor.
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You can fill that syringe, right?
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In that moment, after days of waiting and watching and holding this space,
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he just stood up and he said, yes, I am. You bet I can definitely do that.
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So he accompanied the staff member to the nurse's station, and the staff member
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noticed that actually they were out of the liquid morphine, to which the therapist,
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who apparently had keen observation skills,
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saw a bottle in his mom's medication tote that looked exactly the same and said on it, morphine.
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He pointed that out, and it was funny, he told me, that the staff member said,
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oh, okay, yeah, you would know, you're the doctor.
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And the therapist thought to himself, no, I guess I'm just actually good at
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noticing similar shapes and reading labels on bottles, but a confirmation bias, right?
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That person in charge was looking for evidence to confirm, I guess,
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her cognitive bias in that moment that he was in fact a doctor.
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So the therapist walked into the room with his father and the therapist's wife
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looking at him with these big eyes thinking, what the heck are you doing?
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But he confidently administered the dose to his mom.
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And this therapist had conveyed to me that it was actually a pretty tender experience.
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And it was definitely almost like he said this gift that his mom had given him,
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one that had been set up years in advance.
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I don't know if she had apparently been in on the long con, but to him,
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it really was quite the moment.
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Humorous, yeah, but also somewhat kind of special,
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maybe even sacred, like something had come full circle and it really felt like
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somewhere deep inside of her, she waited for that moment so her son could help
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her one last time the way that she always believed he could as her doctor.
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Because if you knew that mom, she pretty much always found a way to get her way.
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And maybe this was her final say, not just about how or when she would go,
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but also about whether or not her son really was a doctor.
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Because in her eyes, he was.
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So for my mom, or scratch that, for that mom, that story was her truth.
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Her son was her doctor. and nothing that he could have said could have changed that.
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Kind of like a beautiful delusion that made perfect sense to her.
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And in the end, maybe that's all that mattered.
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So back to my experience with my mom. As I sat bedside during those final days,
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I found myself in a completely different role than I am used to.
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Not as a therapist helping others process grief, which I've been fortunate enough to do quite often.
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And I know the things to say that apparently were the right things to say.
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But this time I was the sun and I was experiencing it firsthand.
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You know, it's one thing to guide clients through loss, but it's another thing
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entirely to be the one sitting bedside next to somebody that has been a part
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of your life for literally your entire life, waiting for something you can't control.
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It's happening. It's relentless. It's going to be what it's going to be,
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whether you want it to or not.
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Whether there would have been an easier way for you to experience it or not,
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it's just going to happen.
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This conversation is definitely not a clinical discussion about the stages of
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grief and loss or therapeutic techniques for processing loss.
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I think this is pretty raw, it's honest, and hopefully funny,
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because that's what real grief looks like. It's messy, it's unpredictable,
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there are ups and downs, and there can be humor, and it doesn't follow the textbooks.
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And Tricia asked the questions that I think would have been really interesting
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to ponder beforehand, accepting the fact that I honestly wouldn't have known
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the answers, because that was just about to be the very first time that I was
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going to go through that experience as me.
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So we talk about the humor that shows up in even what might be viewed as the
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darkest moments, the spiritual experiences that maybe you hope for,
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but might not get, and why, hey, let me know if you need anything,
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might not actually be as helpful as we think it is.
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But most importantly, I think we explore what it means to sit with uncertainty,
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to be present with pain, or with all the emotions that are kind of happening at once.
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You might have some pain, sorrow, grief, humor frustration
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and being sleepy and hungry and
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and dopey and doc kind of had to go there or at
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times feeling almost apathetic and also to try and find meaning in that whole
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process of waiting so whether or not you are processing your own loss or supporting
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somebody who is or if you're even just curious about what it's like when the
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the helper i guess that would be me becomes the one who needs the help.
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I think this conversation is something that offers a little of all of that,
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because it's definitely not about having all the answers, because how could you have them?
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It's the first time you're going through that whole experience as you,
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but it's about being, I think, human enough to sit with the questions and to
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notice all the things that are happening in a way that you're not doing any of it wrong.
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You're just going through it. You're just being and doing. So you can just kind
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of check that out. This is what I'm thinking. This is how I'm feeling.
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Here's my conversation with Tricia about grief and grace and what I learned
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on the other side of the couch.
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Sometimes you walk with others through their hardest moments. We offer words.
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We hold space for them. We speak softly into someone else's pain,
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especially when you're a therapist, a coach, or a physician.
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You learn how to sit with suffering.
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You learn how to stay steady for others. You learn the language of deep compassion.
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But then one day, it may be your turn.
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So today's episode is a tender one. It's about what happens when the helper becomes the griefer.
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When the one who usually has the answers finds himself sitting in the unknown.
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This episode is called On the Other Side of the Couch, Grief and Grace with Tony Overbate.
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Tony recently lost his mom, and today he's sharing what that journey looks like,
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not just as a therapist, but also as a son.
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So welcome, friends, to the Q&A Files. I'm Tricia Jameson, and today we're having
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an honest, heart-level conversation about grief, grace, and what truly shifts
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in us when we're the one experiencing that grace.
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Before we dive in, as always, I'd like to start with celebrations.
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And I know even in the midst of grief, sometimes there's those little moments
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of light. I remember when my dad passed away, we just had a lot of those tender moments.
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Is there anything that you'd like to share with us today, Tony?
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Well, it's funny. I was already queuing up a joke. So now I can't.
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Go ahead and share the joke.
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Because that is who you are. It is who I am. And we'll talk about that too,
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because that was pretty fascinating.
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When you said that I had lost my mom, and I think I've told you off the air
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before, but I can't turn off my humor brain and it's going constantly.
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And when people have said to me in the past where they've said,
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you know, we lost my grandpa back in 2012, my immediate thought is,
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do you guys ever find him and it makes me laugh every time and so i thought that so many times,
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i'm never gonna look at that question the same ever
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again it's the best oh my god as a matter of fact i've been i've been jotting down
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some notes for doing a bit of a podcast on some on the
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virtual couch or some of these things and i already of course i'm gonna have
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to call it losing tony losing tony's mom and it's going to start with a hilarious
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narrative of yeah we can find her it was really rough oh my gosh we're still
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looking for her okay i will tell you a celebration And so this one actually
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has some humor in it as well.
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It was two weeks ago on a Wednesday. This is really funny because it was the client that just left.
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And then I got out of that session. I had a text from my dad and he said,
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hey, if you can, can you can you FaceTime me? My dad doesn't ever ask for me to FaceTime.
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And I knew that he was at this board and care with my mom. And I still go back
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and forth between California and Arizona because I've maintained my practice there.
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And so I had been spending some time with my mom in the board and care.
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And she'd been, even though she was on hospice, she seemed like she was rallying.
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And, and we were, when I would hang out there, we would watch TV together.
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She would tell some stories, that sort of thing. But then I FaceTimed my dad.
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And he had my mom there and you could tell that she just looked like she was
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kind of already gone internally and it looked like it wasn't even her.
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And then I realized, oh man, I might be saying goodbye to her right now. And it was wild.
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And I just sat there. I didn't have a client at that time. And then he just
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texted and said, hey, if you can get here today, that'd be great.
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And so then I called my wife and then I canceled the rest of the afternoon.
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And then we were on a plane and we landed.
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And so the humor, of course, is that I was hungry and we hadn't eaten.
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And I picked up the rental car right before midnight.
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And if we wouldn't have made it by midnight, we'd had an Uber.
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And so it's like that timing worked great.
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And In-N-Out is open until 1.30 in the morning. So I just thought,
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OK, well, it's on the way to the boarding care.
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And I sat there thinking, man, if I end up missing her by 10 minutes because
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I wanted a cheeseburger and some well-done fries, that probably wouldn't be
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a good thing. But I got the cheeseburger and we ended up.
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So I guess the maybe a celebration is, you know, we did make it there.
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That was a it was pretty amazing just to go from in my office one minute to
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then home and pick up Wendy and we're at the airport and then I'm there.
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And then we were at the Borden Care by one that morning and then it was let
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the waiting begin and it was almost four days of her hanging in there.
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Yeah, so celebration. In-N-Out, well done fries and a cheeseburger on the way
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to the Borden Care. There we go.
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Having a full tummy makes everything so much better, right?
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Yeah, but that would have been pretty bad though if I would have pulled up there
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and I'm still got my soda cup in hand and my dad says you missed her by a minute
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or two. So that would have been a challenge, right? Yeah.
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Well, it's interesting too, because when my dad passed away,
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we were living in Yakima and I had that phone call.
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You better come over. And I'd kind of already said goodbye to my dad.
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So Yakima is about three, over three hours to get to Spokane.
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And if I had left right at that moment and I had all these children that I needed
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to pack or find something to do with them, I wouldn't have made it.
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So I think it was the best decision.
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But I remember feeling a lot of guilt. Just, oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm not going over.
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Even though the day before I left, I did say goodbye and I just did all those
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things that you try to do at a time like that.
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But I still think that even today, it's like, gosh, maybe he would have held
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on if he knew I was coming. Maybe.
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I don't know. And so, but they, my siblings talk about this tender moment that they all had with him.
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And I wasn't part of that experience.
23:59
So sometimes I do feel a little. Okay. The therapist in me says,
24:01
I'm sorry to hear that because, and I think it ties into maybe what we're going
24:05
to talk about today because I've processed with so many people those moments.
24:09
And so it was such an interesting experience to then be in that moment there at the bedside.
24:15
And just in general, and I was telling my wife this, that it's fascinating because
24:21
the hospice staff, the hospice nurse was incredible and there was a hospice social worker.
24:27
And I think that's just such a special person that works in that space.
24:32
But then I also, again, going back to jokes, the things that they said were so comforting.
24:39
But then I realized at one point it was like, wait a minute,
24:42
they've got all their bases covered.
24:43
Because at first they said, you know, sometimes they wait for you to be out
24:47
of the room to go because they don't want you to be there.
24:49
But sometimes they wait for you to get in the room and then they go.
24:52
And when each one of those was said, I was like, man, that's beautiful.
24:55
Then I realized, wait a minute. So if I'm there or if I'm not.
25:00
But they're correct either way. You know, because I thought that was that was really funny.
25:04
And I realized, gosh, we want certainty so bad. And we just wanted somebody
25:08
to tell us, hey, do you think it'll be tonight or do you think it'll be tomorrow?
25:12
And nobody knows. Nobody knows. But people are trying to then figure out the
25:17
right thing to say, trying to figure out what would you want to hear.
25:20
And there were times where at one point, I think I was wanting to hear that
25:24
it wouldn't be much longer because it just really seemed like she was not there.
25:30
And that person's like, oh, she could stay for days.
25:33
And then I was like, that's not the right answer. And nobody knows.
25:36
And so I just thought that was a really fascinating part of it.
25:38
Oh, but where I was going with that, Trisha, is, again, I'm so sorry to hear
25:42
that you can still go to that place of, did you feel like you missed that opportunity?
25:49
Yeah I mean it's been so many years later,
25:54
And I definitely don't focus on that as much.
25:59
But yeah, I mean, there's still that. If we ever talk about it,
26:03
they kind of share some of those tender moments just prior.
26:07
And it's just, you can feel a different presence in the room.
26:13
And it just, there's a lot more light.
26:17
And for those that have more of a spiritual outlook, that is something that people look for.
26:25
Yeah. So, yeah, I appreciate that. Well, and so I'll tell you the hilarious
26:29
couples therapist version of this, too, where I worked with a couple once.
26:34
And it was so interesting to now understand being in that, and again,
26:38
in that moment or in that situation and understand even some of the stories
26:41
that I've worked with before and what they must have been like.
26:44
And there was a couple that the wife was so upset that the husband was not there
26:49
when it was her mom or her dad had passed away.
26:52
But then the guy said, but you asked me to go get you Starbucks.
26:56
And so then I did and I missed it. And then she was saying, but you should have
27:00
known, you know, you should have known that he was.
27:02
And that's one of those where it's, man, people just so want to make sense or
27:05
they weren't in a good spot anyway.
27:07
And so it's like there's something that then she now will most likely hold over him.
27:12
Oh, that's so sad. I really appreciate that comment, though,
27:15
that people want to make sense of the situation. And sometimes you just can't.
27:21
You just get to experience it. There's no making sense of it.
27:25
And that was, you're so spot on because I started to notice we would check her
27:30
oxygenation level and it would be a certain number. And then we're on chat GPT and Google.
27:36
And it's, oh, if it's this, it could be any minute. So I'm like,
27:39
oh, man, we're all up by the bed. And wasn't it like in the 40s or something like that? Yeah.
27:43
But my mom, bless her heart, was very stubborn. So she was going to do it on her own time.
27:47
And I think I sent you and Dr. Jeff something I had shared with my extended family. But,
27:54
They were saying that hearing is maybe the last thing to go.
27:57
And so for a while, we were doing the, hey, it's okay. Like,
28:01
you can go. You've done great. And I realized, wait a minute.
28:04
She doesn't like to be told what to do.
28:05
So then a little later, I was back. I'm like, hey, you know what?
28:09
You can actually stick around as long as you want. As a matter of fact.
28:12
Rebirth psychology. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Oh, I love it. That is so funny.
28:18
So how long from then? How long from then did she pass away?
28:22
So it was, I mean, it was, we got there Thursday morning at like 1 a.m.
28:26
And she passed away on Sunday afternoon.
28:29
And so that was a few days and she was incoherent that entire time.
28:33
But there was such a, it was such an interesting experience on Sunday morning.
28:38
Out of nowhere, she opens her eyes and there's a CNA in there and a hospice nurse.
28:43
And then, oh my gosh. And it was like a movie script. And then we all get over
28:47
there and holding her hand and my dad's looking at her and you can go.
28:50
And she's like trying to talk and she can't really get anything out.
28:54
And there was a tiny part of me that was worried if she did,
28:56
she might not say nice things.
28:58
But it was nice because we were like, no, she's trying to say she loves us and
29:02
goodbye. And so I liked that version a lot.
29:04
And then her breathing got really intense and then it slowed down and she closed her eyes.
29:09
And then she went right back to just there.
29:13
And I just thought, man, that was a movie ending that then it didn't end.
29:17
So then there was like, it was just so fascinating because then we all just
29:21
kind of sat back down again and just.
29:23
Four days later I mean we're out of stories to tell we've been
29:26
playing music it was really interesting and so then
29:29
a few hours later I needed to go do laundry I brought it with me and so I ran
29:34
over to my dad's house and then my mom went while I was gone yeah so it was
29:38
just so interesting that that experience wow so I want to go back to that place
29:45
in just a few minutes but But I was just thinking about,
29:48
you know, you've sat with so many people in grief over the years, your clients,
29:53
friends, even a lot of your listeners here.
29:56
Can you take us to the place that you felt this shift?
30:02
You know, what surprised you? What was helpful for you?
30:05
I love the question. I'm a big acceptance and commitment therapy person.
30:09
It's the first time we're going through life is us. So there is really no playbook,
30:12
but there's ways that we assume we should show up or things that we think we
30:16
should be thinking or feeling.
30:18
So I was so ready to just go there and be.
30:22
But the part that I forgot was that your mind can think anything it wants.
30:29
And so I would still have these moments where I'm sitting there and I'm just
30:33
trying to be present, but I would notice the stories my brain wanted to tell
30:38
me of things like, man, maybe you could have done a better job as a son.
30:41
And the part that was interesting was...
30:44
The good news was having really embraced acceptance and commitment therapy long
30:48
ago, I immediately went to this place of like, whoa, that's the thought I'm
30:53
going to have right now. That's not a very productive one. I'm not a big fan of that one.
30:56
Instead of it just like, oh, I feel bad. Yeah.
30:59
Yeah. So that was the part. And then once that happened and it happened pretty
31:02
early, then it was I just realized, oh, that's right.
31:06
I can do all the work I want to, but my mind can think anything it wants.
31:10
And then my body will feel a lot of different feelings. So I was able to look
31:14
at those with more curiosity and because some of them weren't great.
31:18
Some of them were hilarious.
31:19
Some of them were, they were just all over the place. And so I appreciated that.
31:23
That was where it really shifted to, oh, I'm here.
31:26
Like I am doing this. This is, this is happening. This is an experience that I will now pull from.
31:32
You know, this is, this is something that I will never forget,
31:36
except for if I do, when I get older, if my memory slides.
31:39
And i've written a lot about it while i was there and since
31:42
and so i've tried to like pack in all the feelings and
31:45
emotions and memories and but it really it was kind
31:48
of surreal just to think that i don't know i don't know if you've had that feeling
31:52
for where you're in a moment and it's like wow this is really happening and
31:57
that was one of those that just felt really profound yeah this is real time
32:00
yeah yeah definitely i've had that experience it's very it's almost like this
32:05
out-of-body experience?
32:07
A little bit. Yeah. It's really interesting.
32:10
You know, I've got one that's going to sound like I'm trying to work in,
32:12
oh, let me mention my ultramarathon races, but it really, one of the other times
32:17
I would feel this and not, of course, in that similar way.
32:20
So I did a few of these like a hundred mile runs and that's kind of nuts now
32:24
to think about it that I'm, because I'm not going to probably do any more of those.
32:27
Right. And so I would be at the starting line on one of those.
32:30
And I would just think it would be so wild to think, wow, I am about to do this
32:34
for like the next 24 hours. Like I, and it is about to happen.
32:38
And I just, it was one of the most out of body experiences. And so there was a similar feeling.
32:43
That's funny. We mentioned that, that I was there. I'm like, whoa, this I'm here.
32:47
I'm not leaving. It is going to end. I don't know when.
32:52
It was wild. And you're going to experience it for 24 hours.
32:55
And I am. Yeah. And it ended up being whatever four times 24 is.
32:59
Yeah. Great. With my mom, right? Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah.
33:04
Wow. I really appreciate that. And I think that so often we have those experiences in our life.
33:11
And sometimes we just don't take a moment to just really sit and feel it and to experience it.
33:17
Like, you know, and I appreciate that you're writing things down.
33:21
You're taking notes. You're really doing your part so you don't forget these
33:26
things because I think these are really important.
33:27
There's things that I wish that I had written down about, you know,
33:32
whether it's experiences with my dad or when I was going through some experiences.
33:36
I just, it's just a lot of memory.
33:39
And how often does that memory shift and change?
33:44
Oh, and I would say pretty much all the time. And so it's like you have an experience
33:49
and then the next time you tell it, all of a sudden there's something new or
33:53
improved or who knows what it really is today. I don't know.
33:58
So I was thinking that the other day when I was talking to Jeff and I was just
34:01
saying, gosh, I was talking about an experience. I'm like, gosh,
34:04
I wonder if that even happened.
34:05
Yeah, for real. I wonder if how much of this is even real. This happened so,
34:12
you know, when I was a child and just as a child and looking through a different
34:16
lens and having such a childlike perspective.
34:21
Yeah. And then you kind of grow up and you kind of, it's just interesting now
34:25
to look back and go, gosh, I wonder how much is real.
34:28
I mean, it feels real. You think it's real. Well, that's exactly. I don't know.
34:32
Yeah. I have to tell you, there was a director that I was listening to a podcast
34:37
and it was a movie and it was a military or like a war movie.
34:41
And the director had some really, really interesting things about memory that
34:45
I had to stop on this walk and jot these down.
34:49
Okay. So he said, I love this. Memory is open to the passage of time and stress and trauma.
34:56
And so then I added in there and a need for validation and a fear of abandonment.
34:59
And so, and I wrote this note down of my first client experiences.
35:03
I don't even remember because I was in my own head so much because I was, I was afraid.
35:07
And then he said, memory is more reliable on what I felt because we don't have
35:12
video, but we have snapshots and then we're filling in the gaps. And I love that.
35:16
So it's about what you felt. and then these snapshots of what happened and then
35:20
you fill in the gaps with with the emotions and and then it does it changes
35:24
that entire and that entire memory so fascinating and if you've had a negative
35:29
experience what are you going to fill it in with not positive wonderful.
35:33
Memories they're going to be negative so yeah even if it was positive,
35:39
absolutely one that's that's that concept where even in twin studies
35:42
i mean two twins can have the same input and
35:45
then have completely different output because of whatever they were feeling or
35:47
thinking or interpreting or their own lens yeah it's
35:51
just so fascinating that is so fascinating yeah so
35:54
you were just talking about your secondary emotion which
35:58
yeah is what humor right yeah did you find yourself during this time i know
36:08
i know you i've known you for several years now and when When things have even been stressed,
36:15
when you felt stressed or, you know, you're going through a challenge or difficulty,
36:19
you always do reach for humor.
36:22
And I love that. And I appreciate that. I'm like, I reach for the positive. Yeah, you do.
36:29
But did you find when you were going through this experience,
36:33
and I know you just mentioned that you did reach for humor, was there anything
36:36
else that came up for you?
36:38
I mean, like, did you try to distract yourself? Did you look for more logical
36:42
things that you needed to grab hold of? Was there anything different that came up?
36:47
Yeah, I really like your question. And I'll say first what was interesting about
36:52
humor, and then I'll tell you what I did that I found myself looking at differently.
36:55
But the concept of differentiation, of holding on to myself when I'm interacting
37:02
with others or when I felt like there was pressure to be a certain way or a
37:06
different way, that that was a big challenge.
37:09
Cause I would find myself wanting to tell a joke and then, and I would notice,
37:13
oh, I'm a little worried that someone might think this about me,
37:16
but then I've been doing a lot of content on my episodes lately about emotional maturity.
37:20
And there's one of the concepts there where it's like, I'm worried this person
37:23
will think this, but I need to let them think whatever they're going to think.
37:26
And I'm going to do, I'm going to be.
37:28
And so I would on occasion, I can't, I wish I could pull a good example of this
37:32
right now, but I would say something that I said, because that's what I say.
37:35
And I would be aware that someone may take it a certain way but that was okay.
37:40
That was something that was a them thing and it didn't always go great because
37:45
sometimes I get a couple of looks.
37:47
Because there might be a nurse in the room and I'm saying something pretty funny
37:51
because my mom's there and it's maybe somebody that's in there that they think
37:56
that might be inappropriate or but that's okay.
37:58
So that differentiation concept was continually being. Yeah.
38:03
I love that. So where did you get your humor? Was your dad funny?
38:06
Was your mom funny? Was an uncle funny?
38:08
Where did this come from? Was it just a mechanism that you had to learn to just deal with life?
38:13
Just curious. I've never actually thought of that because my dad is pretty funny.
38:17
Okay. I didn't really, I didn't, my dad worked a lot when I was younger and
38:20
I think he had a lot of stress providing and, and I don't know.
38:26
I, that's a funny, that's a great question. I don't know.
38:29
But I was always like class clown and that sort of thing.
38:33
But it was, and I know now the, I mean, I know you know this stuff as well,
38:36
but that was how I got my validation.
38:38
That was how I existed was if I crack jokes, people laugh, then that meant I
38:42
was there, meant I existed.
38:44
Right. Did your parents laugh at your jokes?
38:47
No, not so much. Yeah. Ouch.
38:52
So no validation there for you. I'm sorry. No, no, no.
38:56
But what I did think when you were saying, did anything else come up?
38:59
I did find myself really wanting to have almost like spiritual, mystical experiences.
39:04
I wanted to, I don't know, I wanted to, I wanted to feel the spirit in the room
39:12
or I wanted to feel like I did notice that I wanted those things to happen.
39:17
Yeah. And you didn't? No, no. But I mean, and that was because I will say that
39:23
I work with a lot of people that are working on their faith journeys,
39:27
faith deconstruction, faith crisis, you name it.
39:30
And so often people will say things like, you know, I don't feel this fill in
39:33
the blank burning in the bosom or whatever.
39:35
And I get to work with enough people where I get to say, oh,
39:37
that that isn't necessary or it's you're normal and human.
39:41
But I did notice that there were, I've worked with enough people that have been
39:46
through that grieving process or the someone dying and they've had a pretty,
39:50
pretty profound spiritual experience.
39:52
And, and what I did do was when there would be a nurse there and I love,
39:56
I mean, the whole reason I do what I do is I love.
39:59
How people work. And so I, whether it's a grocery store clerk and I'm going
40:03
to ask them, what's your biggest sale today? Or, you know, whatever,
40:05
how do you mean customers?
40:07
So the hospice people, I found myself asking every one of them,
40:10
Hey, have you had some pretty, pretty interesting or crazy experiences with this?
40:14
And they all have. And I knew they would, cause I've had hospice workers as clients.
40:18
And there were some pretty amazing stories. And it's funny because a couple
40:22
of them stopped and I would joke and say, I'm a therapist. It's okay.
40:26
And then they would tell some pretty, pretty wild stories.
40:29
And, and so I think there was a part of me that was like, I would like one of those, please.
40:33
Yeah. Order out. Yep. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if that's the way it works.
40:38
Right. I don't, apparently.
40:39
Yeah. Yeah. Probably not, but okay.
40:42
That's interesting. I appreciate that for sure. Well, and it's, I've had a,
40:46
I still remember the first funeral director client I had, and I had to ask them,
40:51
you know, I just said, Hey, have you had some pretty, pretty wild experiences
40:54
and I kind of assumed they'd say no and they were like oh yeah and then they
40:57
would tell me one every time they came in and it yeah that stuff's pretty pretty
41:01
amazing yeah do you feel like potentially that because you weren't experiencing
41:08
that you wanted to kind of,
41:10
feel that through other people that have had that experience oh trisha that's a good question.
41:17
And and that question might even lead to as you were saying it actually what
41:21
came up for me was And you and I talked off the air, maybe we'll talk about
41:25
this down the road, but I probably would have loved to have had a better relationship.
41:29
My mom had dealt with a lot of pain, a lot of chronic pain.
41:32
And so I wonder now as we're talking, maybe there's a part of me that wanted
41:37
to have, if I couldn't have had necessarily the in-person connection,
41:41
that maybe I wanted this spiritual connection there.
41:45
And maybe that was me subconsciously saying, okay, or no, it was literally consciously,
41:50
but thinking, okay, if I could have this big experience going out,
41:54
then it will all make sense.
41:57
And there I am wanting to make sense of things, maybe.
42:00
Yeah. That logical part of your brain coming out. Yeah. Yeah.
42:03
Right. I like that. That's very good.
42:07
Did anything catch you off guard emotionally? You know, something that felt
42:11
small, but really hit hard.
42:13
Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, there's, and I know that we are,
42:18
our audience are all adult human beings.
42:20
So that, but that part of me is like, oh, I don't want to say anything that would make anybody sad.
42:24
But that concept of, I'd heard of the death rattle where the breathing that
42:29
people will often get where, and that was a little rough to hear because I had
42:35
heard so much about it from other clients.
42:37
And they would just say, and then, you know, they experienced the death rattle.
42:40
And so I'd heard about it. But that was one of those where being in the room
42:43
and hearing the way that her breathing became really labored and knowing that
42:48
there wasn't a lot they could do. They ended up moving her a little bit.
42:52
And it did address that to the point where actually for the last day,
42:55
it sounded like she was literally snoring.
42:57
So that was fine because then I could make jokes about that in my head.
43:01
But there when i first heard the before it
43:04
was sounding like snoring that one it is wild to
43:07
think of that just brought up some emotion and i and
43:10
that one i i wasn't sure i don't know i don't i don't think i would have really
43:13
enjoyed that if that would have gone on for another couple of days which it
43:16
would have if they hadn't have been able to position her a way that she was
43:20
sounding like she was snoring so that was that was pretty yeah that was tough
43:24
i remember that and i think that There's some reality of,
43:29
you know, it's close, you know, it's imminent.
43:33
And it's like, sometimes when you have that experience and there's other things
43:37
happening, just like the snoring or just sometimes they kind of talk or they do certain things.
43:43
It's okay. That's here we are. We're still here.
43:46
But then there's, it's more finite.
43:48
It's more like, here we are. This is, like I said earlier, this is in real time.
43:54
This is happening now. And I don't know how much longer that's going to get real. Yeah.
44:01
Yeah. No, you're right. And I will say this is so cliched.
44:04
I know that there's no, I've said a lot with clients, there's no right way to
44:09
grieve. We're all going to grieve in the way that we do. And I love that concept.
44:13
The other cliche that I thought about often was that you hear that we don't
44:16
do death well in our country.
44:19
And because we're, I don't know, we're like doing everything we can to stave
44:22
off death. We don't like to talk about death.
44:25
And I understood that more because as I was there, there was,
44:30
and I think the hospice people, and I'm going to have one of them on my podcast
44:33
soon because I want to talk more about that.
44:35
But it was like, I could also see that it could also be a beautiful thing, a transition.
44:41
You know, we spent these few days and I wrote a post on Facebook that I might
44:45
want to share a tiny bit with you about.
44:47
Sure. Of what I really, okay, let me pull that up real quick here.
44:50
But I think that there were things that I was glad to be there and experience,
44:56
but that I also, yeah, maybe this would help somebody to know that.
45:01
That it will be uncomfortable it can be awkward it
45:04
can also be funny and it can be sad and you know this part
45:07
of that you can have a whole lot of different emotions at once right so
45:10
i just said rest in peace mom and i said i'm grateful that wendy and i were
45:13
able to be there with my dad right up to the end and i said i always thought
45:16
of my dad as determined and stoic successful in business and his hobbies but
45:19
as my mom transitioned from the icu to hospice i got to witness another side
45:22
of him he was his quiet dedication to her his tender care through some of the
45:26
most difficult and demanding days of their 58 years together.
45:29
And I said, mom continued to be mom, meaning she was going to go when she was
45:32
good and ready and not a minute sooner.
45:34
And that left Wendy, my dad and me with a lot of time bedside for four days before she passed.
45:38
She was incoherent throughout that
45:40
time, but a hospice worker said that hearing was the last sense to go.
45:44
So she encouraged us to talk to my mom, share stories, play music she liked.
45:48
And that ended up being the advice that I thought was amazing.
45:51
So I said, over those four days, I got to know both my parents better than I
45:54
ever had. We shared memories from their childhoods, high school years, decades of marriage.
45:58
And while we were told that based on her condition and vital signs,
46:00
she could pass in any minute, she had other plans. And so a lot of those minutes
46:03
brought a lot of emotions and a lot I didn't expect.
46:06
And so I put here at the end, I said, now I can't help wondering if she was
46:10
hanging on so that I could have those days with my dad to see the strength in
46:14
his tenderness and realize that moving forward, it's him and me and then his
46:17
grandkids and a great grandson.
46:19
So then I looked at that whole experience then of, okay, I never would have
46:23
had that experience if she had not hung on.
46:26
And so that was pretty tender. And because I had a brother die 30 years ago,
46:30
so I've been the only kid for a long time.
46:32
And now it's just my dad and I, he's actually going to move down to Arizona with us.
46:36
And that was just, that was, I won't, I treasure those three or four days where
46:41
we were just there bedside.
46:43
Well, see, and I love that. I love that you, and I remember reading that,
46:47
you told that, and I just thought that was so tender, especially the last part
46:52
when you mentioned how you felt like that was, this was an experience that you
46:57
got to enjoy with your dad.
46:59
And maybe that's why she held on longer and how you were able to look at that
47:04
in such a different light.
47:06
And I think that that's what this journey is about, is how are you looking at life? What is it?
47:13
What does this look like for you on this end?
47:16
So how's your dad doing? How's he doing now? I think really well. I think really well.
47:22
Yeah, he's, I mean, he misses her in 58 years. That's a long time.
47:27
Long time. But I'm really glad that he's going to move down with us.
47:32
And so there's this part where I want to have a relationship with him because
47:37
that's something that he and I haven't necessarily had as much of just because
47:41
of, I don't know, but all kinds of different circumstances. So I'm looking forward to that.
47:46
Yeah. Well, good. I think that that is fantastic. That's, and that's where he
47:50
should be. He should be with you and your family. Yeah.
47:54
So I remember when your daughter went through a really bad car accident.
47:59
I thought about this too.
48:00
Yeah. And you had mentioned how, you know, you help so many people deal with
48:06
their emotions and just moving through them and walk through their grief.
48:12
And I remember how much that changed you because you were on the other side,
48:16
you're on the couch and how you're able to see through such,
48:22
have a different perspective on when somebody is struggling like that.
48:26
So how has being in this yourself deepened your understanding of compassion and empathy?
48:35
Yeah, first of all, I feel very grateful that you remember that because that
48:40
was a game changer for me.
48:42
And I would talk often about the ACT principle that I love of,
48:46
oh, I'm noticing my emotions.
48:48
They are there. I'm not trying to push them away. And I'm inviting them to come with me.
48:52
And I made it sound like it was just so easy to do. And then when those emotions
48:56
were crushing and I didn't want to get out of bed, then I was like,
49:01
oh, man, I need to go back and redo all those podcasts.
49:04
It's like, hey, hey, those are OK. All right. The times where you can invite
49:08
them with you and you eat a whole
49:09
bag of Reese's and don't exercise for a couple of days, you know that.
49:13
OK, I get it now. So I thought about that often as this was happening.
49:16
And it really was more of the, okay, yeah, what am I going to learn?
49:20
What's my experience going to be? And I thought about, I wondered,
49:24
would the experience with Alex, because I think that was four years ago,
49:27
maybe four or five years ago.
49:29
I wonder if that would have been different. But then it got to the circular logic.
49:33
Because of that experience, I did a whole lot. I went on a deep dive for the
49:37
next couple of years of really understanding emotions. Even as a therapist,
49:40
I feel like I should have probably had a better relationship with emotions before then.
49:43
But then it's been really learning where they are at, what they're trying to
49:47
tell me, inviting them in. They've been messengers since childhood. I've shoved them down.
49:51
I'm the adult. So I think that whole experience led me on this journey to figure out the emotions.
49:56
So then sitting there with my mom, I think that's what helped me be that much
50:01
more aware of the emotions. So I love that you asked that because I've thought
50:05
about this because let's say that that hadn't happened with Alex.
50:07
I would imagine this probably would have been the experience where then I would
50:10
have had the, oh, man, that's not so easy to just say, here they are.
50:14
Here's emotions. Invite them to come with me.
50:16
So because of that experience, I think I was able to really experience this
50:21
event and all the emotions and sit with them and thank them and acknowledge
50:25
what were they trying to tell me versus just, oh, wow, I actually have them.
50:29
So this is your first time yeah i think
50:32
that that is i really really appreciate that
50:35
because i think so often we always think how come
50:38
i haven't experienced this before or how come whatever it might be and i think
50:43
because you weren't ready that wasn't when you're in a place that you're ready
50:48
and you're you're receptive and accepting of what's coming and you can handle
50:54
things in a way that you can teach, you can learn, you can grow.
50:58
And now look where you've taken it to the next level with this experience with
51:02
your mom. So I think it's so good.
51:05
Yeah. And I have been saying lately, too, that, you know, when we didn't know
51:10
what we didn't know, then, of course, we didn't know it.
51:13
And then you learn something new and it's you learned it because you didn't
51:16
know it before. I'm going to sound a little nerdy here for a second.
51:18
So then at some point, though, then, well, that means then there's lots of other
51:21
things that I don't know. And so I can't wait to learn them as well.
51:25
And it does leave me more kind of genuinely curious about the future.
51:29
So not that I want to have all the the challenging experiences,
51:33
but I know I'm very confident now.
51:35
Though, that I will make it through them and I can learn something from them.
51:39
And I can, you know, really believe that apparently all these things truly will be for my good.
51:43
When before it's like, really, this is going to be for my good,
51:47
but now, okay, I believe it. Right. Exactly.
51:50
So now I can believe it. And it doesn't mean that it's going to feel great all
51:53
the time, but I have confidence now that overall, all right,
51:56
this will be for my good. I'm pretty confident.
51:59
I think that's so good. And going along with what is good for you,
52:06
when people would ask you what they could do to help you or let me know if you need anything. Yeah.
52:15
How hard was that? Yeah. I think people are definitely genuine,
52:19
but there's also this space of they have no idea what to do.
52:24
Totally. So when people reached out, was there something more meaningful?
52:30
What actually helped you okay trisha it's
52:34
so good we haven't talked in a while it's so good to be back and i your questions
52:37
are so good because i thought about this one a lot and it
52:40
does go back to the when somebody says oh i'm so sorry sometimes i do and i'm
52:45
not i'm saying bless everyone's heart and they all mean well but i do know that
52:49
sometimes i've said that because i'm like oh well man hey i'm so sorry and i'm
52:53
almost like calling it drive-by validation like you know hey so sorry and I
52:57
feel better. I did a good thing. I told them I'm sorry.
53:00
But I'm not really thinking about what that person maybe needs.
53:03
So I have tried to be so much more genuine about and you send a nice text to
53:07
them. Hey, how are you? Because it's, oh, okay.
53:10
Sorry for your loss sounds, it's the right thing. But,
53:14
I don't know. How are you? But even then, I want to be like,
53:18
I'm fine. So I've had a couple of people. Yeah, right?
53:22
I was genuine with you. It was funny. One of my clients I talked to this morning,
53:25
I hadn't talked to since, and he had texted me. He's like, man, that really sucks.
53:29
And I told him, hey, that was actually spot on. That was like.
53:34
Yeah, that's really hard. Or that must have been a bummer or something.
53:38
And I was like, oh, that was. Yeah, it really was.
53:40
And it was really interesting. And I still remember I had just started grad
53:44
school. So we're talking 20 something years ago.
53:47
And my neighbor, one of my neighbor, his wife had passed away and just like the day or two before.
53:54
And it was like, I just remember we were almost all like out and we saw him
53:57
and everybody was like, Hey, I'm so sorry. Let me know if there's anything I can do.
54:00
And I had just started grad school. So of course I'm a full fledged therapist in my mind.
54:04
But thankfully the professor had said
54:07
something about ask them what that's or how they are feeling and man it was
54:11
so awkward but i did and i just went to him and i just said hey what is what
54:15
have the last couple of days been like and he just broke down he's like oh they've
54:19
been so hard and i've done this and i can't believe you know and i was like
54:23
oh that almost like that works that.
54:25
You know instead of me just going like hey i'm so sorry for your loss i
54:28
mean if there's anything i can do because that just again great
54:32
words right but i don't think
54:35
that person is going to tell me that they need anything right
54:38
so what would you say to someone that is in the middle of a loss or they're
54:45
grieving that could be helpful for them to have those actions those words or
54:54
Or how can they reach out to them?
54:56
Both sides. How could the person, what do you think that they could share with
55:01
people that are asking? And what do you think the person that is asking, what can they say?
55:08
Yeah. Okay. I grabbed, I interviewed the author of this book a little,
55:12
it's a kid's book on grief. It's Ashley Boisson.
55:15
She's amazing. And this is a one day, a child's journey through grief and loss.
55:19
And she was on, Ashley's such an amazing person, but she was on Dateline.
55:24
Her husband had been murdered.
55:25
And, but I mean, the story, and she tells it, but the murdered by her affair
55:30
partner's husband. So that's why it made it a children's story.
55:34
Yeah, exactly. But that part isn't in the book.
55:37
But when I interviewed her, though, she had such a good point about this.
55:40
And I thought about where she was just saying that somebody would say,
55:43
hey, tell me about your mom.
55:45
Or she was like to kids. I was like, oh, man, tell me what you remember about your dad.
55:49
Or what was his name? So people want to talk about it.
55:53
I think if someone would have even said something like, tell me a funny story
55:57
about the last few days. Oh, then I'm in.
55:59
Oh, I've got funny stories. I've got one that I don't know if I can truthfully
56:03
tell legally, but it's so funny. Oh my gosh.
56:08
But for me, it is like, hey, anything crazy happen or anything that you didn't expect.
56:14
That's why I think this interview has been so fun because it's just,
56:17
oh, it's like telling stories about things because I like those because I know
56:21
we like to be heard and understood.
56:24
And so when somebody is just like, I'm so sorry and let me know if I can do
56:26
anything again, it's okay. I appreciate it. That is a human interaction.
56:31
But, man, what's that been like? Then I'm in. I'm on board.
56:35
Which is also hard because as a therapist, I don't, I've also thought recently,
56:39
did I get into this so that I don't have to talk about myself?
56:41
Maybe that's it. Because then, you know, when somebody turns it around on me,
56:44
well, no, that's not what you're doing. You're paying so I can ask you questions.
56:47
You know, so it is still kind of funny. Right. Exactly.
56:51
We could go on and on. This has been so. Sorry to be so vulnerable,
56:56
but I have a client at three and a half to go to the bathroom.
56:57
Oh, I know. And that's so rude. but I just
57:00
so fun no I do I just appreciate your time here
57:04
and I appreciate that there's something
57:07
about the beauty of grief because it
57:11
doesn't ask for permission but it also leaves us with a deeper sense of presence
57:16
and I think that's the important part is we just need to be present for one
57:22
another we need to focus on when there is loss when things feel strange and
57:27
funny or there's sweet human moments or whatever it is,
57:31
what can we do? We don't want to make things awkward.
57:34
We want to be able to reach out. We want to, and I think of one of the things
57:37
that might be helpful is maybe send a text, a sweet moment that maybe if you
57:43
knew the person that you could share.
57:46
I think that those things are meaningful. And I remember when I'd get cards
57:49
for my dad and they would send a little bit of a, I remember when.
57:53
And that actually was really helpful because I appreciated how people perceive
58:00
my dad and just some stories that were really important to me.
58:04
And I still think about them.
58:06
So I think that those things are going to be, I just wonder just in my situation,
58:11
how that could be more helpful.
58:13
And I think everybody wants to say, I'm sorry, but sometimes those words are
58:17
just, what do they really mean?
58:19
But it's like, what else do you say? No, it's true.
58:22
I'm sharing my condolences, whatever it may be, but it's, I remember when.
58:27
And I think that we just went to a funeral just a few minutes ago and I know
58:31
you need to go. But it was just such a celebration of life.
58:34
And that's all they brought up or all the memories of what they experienced with this person.
58:39
And they were beautiful and funny and happy. And it wasn't this depressing.
58:45
Oh, my gosh, this is awful. It was a wonderful experience. I like what you said,
58:50
though, about the grief not asking for permission.
58:52
That really hit because it's like, yeah, nobody said, hey, when's a good time
58:56
for your mom to pass away if you need to get in here?
58:59
Because, you know, in that one, I might even take that one from you.
59:02
Yeah, like I always say, Tricia, wait, what do I say? Grief doesn't ask for permission.
59:07
Yeah, that's what I always say. yeah grief doesn't ask
59:10
for permission yeah and i love it i have
59:13
to think about what i said i don't even that's good it was really good yeah
59:17
i have to go back and listen to the recording i'll put that in the show notes
59:21
for you how's that okay thank you all right trisha always always a pleasure
59:25
we'll see you in a couple of weeks i can't wait to be back together all right
59:28
thank you so much have a great day we're thinking of you.
59:33
Music.