Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E199: Ex-Witch Tell-All: Cults, Dark Magic, and Being Rescued by Jesus w/Jac Marino Chen

Transcript

E199: Ex-Witch Tell-All: Cults, Dark Magic, and Being Rescued by Jesus w/Jac Marino Chen · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  At what point did you actually start practicing the occult?
• 0:03
  The initiation was a black robe. I was hoodwinked.
• 0:05
  A sword was held to my neck. I had to swear an oath that I
• 0:08
  could never talk about it. They seem so liberated.
• 0:11
  They aren't held down by dogma. They can just be free, be
• 0:14
  sexually liberated, be spiritually liberated.
• 0:17
  Hasbro, the toy company, has a Ouija board.
• 0:19
  Yes. The deeper I would go into it,
• 0:21
  the more I would grow this disdain for Christianity.
• 0:24
  There's a very just punishment for that, which is a very real
• 0:27
  place called hell, and that's where I was headed.
• 0:29
  But God is love. Hello everybody, welcome back to
• 0:34
  the Lila Rose Show. But I'm sitting down with Jack
• 0:36
  Marino Chen, who was practicing in the occult in the new age.
• 0:41
  She was actually involved in ritual magic and a whole lot
• 0:44
  more. Jack shares about how she fell
• 0:46
  into the occult, became a practicing occultist at a
• 0:49
  Freemason lodge, and then she shares her incredible story of
• 0:53
  how God found her and rescued her from that world.
• 0:55
  As always, don't forget to subscribe to the show wherever
• 0:58
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• 1:00
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  Go sign up at the link in the bio Jack Murray, you know, Chen,
• 1:30
  welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:33
  Your story caught my eye. I thought I have to talk with
• 1:36
  Jack. It's an incredible story and I
• 1:38
  think it's so relevant to so many people today because of the
• 1:41
  state of the world, with the occult, with the new age, so
• 1:44
  much demonic activity, and people should know your story.
• 1:48
  So thank you for being willing to share it and give your
• 1:51
  testimony. Yes, it's an honor and it's
• 1:52
  truly so humbling that God would use saving me out of such
• 1:56
  darkness to now I get to testify that He is the Savior and it's
• 2:00
  truly humbling and I'm thankful for every opportunity to do it.
• 2:03
  So you're from California originally, right?
• 2:05
  Yes. I'd love to just hear the
• 2:07
  beginning, you know, young Jack, what life was like.
• 2:10
  And then obviously we're going to get into what ended up
• 2:12
  happening, you know, later on in your childhood.
• 2:14
  But I'd love to hear the how your childhood was initially.
• 2:18
  Yeah, I grew up in San Diego and I went to a a preschool that
• 2:22
  was, I'm Christian, and I thought everyone in my family
• 2:25
  was Christian, kind of like how you're born in American.
• 2:27
  I just thought, oh, if you know, if my family's Christian, I'm
• 2:30
  Christian, we're all Christian. And Jesus was just someone who I
• 2:33
  imagined when I was scared at night.
• 2:35
  I had no understanding of the true holy God or what sin really
• 2:39
  was, or that Jesus is the only way to God the Father as the
• 2:43
  Savior who died on behalf of sinners and rose again.
• 2:47
  I might have known some facts, but I didn't know who Jesus
• 2:50
  truly is. And I I surely didn't know
• 2:52
  anything about repentance and faith.
• 2:54
  And so that left me thinking, OK, I'm a Christian, but having
• 2:59
  no, no biblical foundation, I don't remember ever hearing the
• 3:02
  gospel. I could have heard it, but I I
• 3:04
  truly didn't believe it or know it in that way.
• 3:07
  Did your parents go to church? We, yes, we went to church.
• 3:11
  I was in a Sunday school. But when I was young, I was
• 3:16
  sexually abused and that went on for a while and that left me
• 3:20
  confused and and in pain. And then when I was 5,
• 3:23
  unrelatedly, my dad and mom separated because my dad
• 3:27
  struggled with drug and alcohol abuse, specifically amphetamine,
• 3:30
  but a lot of it was alcohol, alcohol abuse.
• 3:34
  And so she didn't feel like it was safe anymore.
• 3:36
  And so once that whole thing happened and my family was
• 3:39
  split, my mom and I stopped going to church and I was still
• 3:43
  imagining this Jesus at night, but I I didn't know who he was.
• 3:46
  And so that's kind of how I entered into life.
• 3:50
  How young were you when you experienced the abuse?
• 3:53
  That's a good question. It's hard to know.
• 3:55
  By the time I have memories, really, I had already developed
• 3:59
  a fascination for this person. And later, when I was 7, this
• 4:03
  person was caught abusing a toddler.
• 4:06
  And that's kind of how I know that.
• 4:08
  OK, this was a real thing that I experienced when I was that
• 4:10
  young, but it's hard to know exactly when it started.
• 4:14
  When you were going through this time of your parents divorce and
• 4:18
  you said you were still imagining Jesus at night and
• 4:21
  things like that, but was there sort of a hunger in you that you
• 4:24
  had for, you know, maybe it was your family to be back together
• 4:29
  again or what was kind of going through your heart and your mind
• 4:32
  at that time? Yeah, I had a close relationship
• 4:35
  with my dad, but it wasn't healthy.
• 4:38
  It was I was so concerned and I felt responsible because he had
• 4:42
  told me I was his reason for a living.
• 4:44
  And I'm sure he meant well when he said that, but there was just
• 4:47
  this thought in me that it's my responsibility for my dad to be
• 4:50
  sober because if he relapses and he loses me, then he won't live.
• 4:54
  And I was just a very like, nervous child in that sense,
• 4:57
  really just wanting my dad to be back, my parents to be back
• 5:00
  together. And I didn't necessarily, I
• 5:04
  would say because when the abuse started happening, at least when
• 5:08
  I started having memories, there's a certain point at a
• 5:10
  certain age where I knew I at least had some childhood
• 5:14
  knowledge of, OK, what I'm doing, I'm not allowed to be
• 5:16
  doing this. What's happening is not allowed
• 5:18
  to be happening. And so I started lying to
• 5:20
  authority figures and really anyone to cover the abuse.
• 5:23
  And that kind of fed into this almost rebellious nature.
• 5:28
  And so I definitely hungered for supernatural, for something
• 5:31
  beyond this world, for some kind of connection.
• 5:34
  But I ended up gravitating more towards supernatural
• 5:38
  experiences. And when I was seven, there was
• 5:41
  an experience where I was outside and I saw these lights
• 5:44
  in the sky. And my dad had two friends who
• 5:47
  were like father figures to me who'd passed away really
• 5:50
  brutally from addiction, from consequences of addiction.
• 5:54
  And so the only context I had was these must be the angels of
• 5:57
  my dad's friends visiting me. And I felt so much love and I
• 6:02
  really clung on to that. And then later I learned about
• 6:05
  aliens and UFOs, a family member talking to me about that and
• 6:08
  thought that must be what that was.
• 6:10
  That makes more sense. And then I grew this really
• 6:12
  fascination as a 7 year old with, OK, no one really knows
• 6:16
  me. I felt like because I was
• 6:18
  covering up this abuse and at that time, the person who'd
• 6:21
  abused me had been caught. And I had told myself I received
• 6:25
  a call, you know, the call of did this person ever touch you?
• 6:28
  And I just decided as a child, of course, then I'm just going
• 6:33
  to say nothing ever happened. I was so afraid of what would
• 6:36
  happen. I was so afraid of how it would
• 6:38
  affect my family that I, I just said I'm just going to live the
• 6:43
  rest of my life and never think about it again.
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  And you know, as a 7 year old thought I could just never think
• 6:47
  about it again. And that would be how it is.
• 6:49
  And so when I had the supernatural experience, I also
• 6:52
  believe that these angels or aliens knew me and they they
• 6:56
  knew who I really was. They saw everything that had
• 6:58
  happened and they loved me and accepted me.
• 7:00
  So I grew this kind of identity with supernatural experiences.
• 7:05
  Then I was lusting for more of them and and this identity with
• 7:09
  these aliens. Did you I'm so sorry that you
• 7:13
  went through abuse as a kid. I mean, it's like every parent's
• 7:16
  worst nightmare and absolutely heartbreaking.
• 7:19
  Did you when you were a child? And again, it sounds like it was
• 7:23
  coming to light. And then seven-year old you
• 7:25
  start to have these sort of kind of intense experiences,
• 7:29
  imaginative or even kind of semi mystical experiences with these
• 7:32
  lights. You you made this comment that
• 7:34
  you felt that no one really knew you.
• 7:38
  Did you feel as a kid that your parents couldn't fully see you
• 7:42
  or hear you because they hadn't known or been able to protect
• 7:45
  you from the abuse? Or can you speak more to that
• 7:47
  dynamic? That's a really good question.
• 7:50
  I'm so protective of my mom because she, you know, was a
• 7:54
  single mom, worked a full time job.
• 7:56
  She was trying so hard in a situation where she had to leave
• 8:00
  my dad because of drug and alcohol addiction.
• 8:03
  My mom was not an addict at all. And so she was just very high
• 8:06
  strung and stressed, reasonably so.
• 8:08
  But as a child, I I just saw my dad as the fun guy.
• 8:11
  Like we were best friends and kind of that dynamic.
• 8:15
  So at home, because my dad was in this vicious cycle of being
• 8:18
  in hospital from overdose or the effects of binging and then
• 8:23
  rehab way back home in some sort of housing that then ends up
• 8:26
  back in the hospital that wasn't very secure.
• 8:30
  And then I had my mom who was stressed and I would, you know,
• 8:34
  see her when she got off work. And then I had the family that
• 8:36
  watched me after school. And that's where I had that
• 8:38
  supernatural experience where I just felt, I thought that they
• 8:42
  were my family as a kid, you don't understand.
• 8:44
  And I was hurt that I didn't feel like they loved me as much
• 8:48
  as their kids, which is totally understandable.
• 8:50
  But I just didn't have a fully, you know, functioning brain as a
• 8:53
  child. And so I just kind of felt like
• 8:55
  this rebellious little kid that no one understood and sadly
• 8:58
  ended up because I didn't know the gospel, because I didn't
• 9:01
  know Christ, turning to these other supernatural experiences
• 9:05
  that fed that that hole in me. And when you say you saw lights
• 9:09
  at 7, do you think looking back on that, was that your
• 9:13
  imagination, do you think or do you think there was something
• 9:15
  else going on there? I truly believe there's
• 9:17
  something else going on. I had an experience later in
• 9:20
  life with the same lights in the sky when I was in my 20s and
• 9:25
  there was someone with me who like affirmed that they saw it
• 9:28
  too. So that kind of helped me look
• 9:30
  back. But also when I was young and my
• 9:31
  friends started having imaginary friends and playing pretend, I
• 9:35
  would, I felt frustrated because this was this experience that I
• 9:38
  had and I wanted more of them. And I didn't understand that
• 9:41
  kind of play pretend when I'd had this experience.
• 9:45
  But I definitely wouldn't say they were angels or I guess I
• 9:47
  wouldn't say they were aliens. I would say that it was demonic
• 9:51
  if anything, fallen angels, and that it was something that that
• 9:55
  led me deeper into this, the route that I ended up going on.
• 10:00
  And when just before we go down the route, because I, I think
• 10:03
  again, very instructive to kind of see where the openings might
• 10:07
  be and you're hurt. I mean, you're, you would have
• 10:09
  been badly hurt as it as like as a little one.
• 10:12
  And when you see these lights in the sky, it starts to kind of
• 10:14
  open up this fascination, this interest and sort of this other
• 10:17
  power or this other, you know, realm potentially.
• 10:20
  Can you share what the lights looked like?
• 10:22
  Are these like stars? What was the?
• 10:24
  What did you see when you were 7?
• 10:25
  Yeah, the, it looked kind of like very bright stars, but it,
• 10:28
  it wasn't just light. It felt like these extremely
• 10:32
  powerful personal beings that were communicating with me, not
• 10:36
  in words, but but just in this inner knowing that they loved me
• 10:40
  and they saw me and they knew me and I was special to them.
• 10:43
  And it didn't seem like a ship or a UFO in like a metallic, you
• 10:48
  know, material thing, but just this powerful presence of light
• 10:53
  like a like a personal being. And the word that I can use best
• 10:57
  to describe it as it just felt very familiar to me and very
• 11:01
  powerful. Hey guys, we are now in Lent,
• 11:04
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• 12:08
  and jumpstart your Pray 40 challenge.
• 12:10
  Now go to hollow.com/lila. At what point then, did you
• 12:15
  start to get into the new age? So.
• 12:19
  And what is the new age? I mean, I'm going to ask that
• 12:20
  too, but you can tackle either of those questions.
• 12:24
  The New Age is kind of an umbrella term.
• 12:26
  It pulls in a lot. It pulls in UFO kind of stuff,
• 12:30
  it pulls in New thought, it pulls in just even Hinduism,
• 12:34
  Eastern religions. It's kind of an umbrella term
• 12:36
  for a lot of different beliefs. It's almost like a buffet style
• 12:41
  thing where most New Agers take from a bunch of different
• 12:44
  religions, a bunch of different schools of thinking.
• 12:46
  And so it's kind of hard to pin down in that way.
• 12:49
  But there are a lot of similarities between New Agers
• 12:53
  and one entryway for me, when I did get into high school, I
• 12:57
  started drinking and using drugs, just trying to find
• 13:00
  escape. I was cutting myself, I was
• 13:03
  bulimic and a lot of time I just didn't eat.
• 13:06
  Just a very lost kid again. It breaks my heart thinking how
• 13:09
  I truly like, I thought I was a Christian and when people in my
• 13:13
  life would talk about the way I was living, I had one friend who
• 13:17
  took me to church and to Awanas and I just, I, yeah, I loved my
• 13:23
  sin ultimately at that age and thought that I was a Christian
• 13:26
  and thought that anyone who said different was just being
• 13:28
  judgmental. But I did not know the gospel
• 13:31
  and I did not truly know Christ. And in high school, in all that
• 13:35
  drinking and and starting to party, I came across the book
• 13:39
  The Secret by Rhonda Byrne, which was really popular back
• 13:43
  then it. Was so popular.
• 13:44
  Yeah, I remember seeing it everywhere.
• 13:46
  Yeah. And still sometimes I think it's
• 13:47
  pops up. Yeah, and it and it doesn't seem
• 13:51
  the fairy like it doesn't seem bad.
• 13:54
  And so I got my hands on that. Actually, I think I got the
• 13:57
  movie 1st and was so fascinated by it and really wanted to.
• 14:01
  I mean, that was such an attractive lie to me that, hey,
• 14:05
  I can actually create my own reality.
• 14:08
  I don't have to be in pain. I don't have to have experienced
• 14:10
  this. I can manifest my own desires.
• 14:14
  Like that was so alerting to me in the state that I was in.
• 14:18
  Again, my dad was still in the cycle of addiction and I was
• 14:21
  just a hurting, rebellious kid. And so that sounded very
• 14:24
  fascinating to me. It also gave a context for the
• 14:29
  supernatural experiences that I had and was having.
• 14:31
  I'd started using Ouija boards too, just in a a hunger for more
• 14:35
  of those experiences. And reading about the Law of
• 14:39
  Attraction was so alluring. And looking back in the intro
• 14:44
  for the Secrets movie or DVD, you know, it has, it flashes
• 14:49
  words like alchemy, Rosicrucianism, a lot of occult
• 14:52
  things that I would later get into.
• 14:54
  But back then it just seemed so innocent.
• 14:57
  And so that was kind of what started me down that track.
• 15:00
  I then got into a relationship with an older man who was Native
• 15:03
  American. He wasn't an older man, he was
• 15:05
  older than me and he was teaching me about Native
• 15:09
  American spirituality and that again, thinking I'm a Christian,
• 15:14
  but starting to give away the, the small amount that I knew
• 15:17
  about Jesus. Like I knew that he proclaimed
• 15:20
  to be the only way, but I didn't, I didn't get what that
• 15:22
  meant. And so I started putting that
• 15:25
  away. Oh, maybe I need to be more open
• 15:26
  minded, you know, Native American spirituality, ancestors
• 15:30
  getting prophecy kind of things. So.
• 15:34
  How old were you at this point? I was 17 when I got in that
• 15:37
  relationship. And at this point, when you get
• 15:40
  into this relationship, you had already used Ouija boards.
• 15:43
  Yeah. Well, when did you first do
• 15:44
  that? That was in middle school and it
• 15:47
  started with a friend at a sleepover who had one of the,
• 15:50
  you know, I believe it's Hasbro, glow in the dark ones.
• 15:53
  And it was just exciting, Hasbro.
• 15:56
  The toy company has a Ouija board.
• 15:58
  Yes. And it's supposed to just play
• 16:00
  game. It started as just a game.
• 16:01
  And I believe that the the people who made it even said,
• 16:05
  oh, I don't, I'm not a spiritualist, I'm a
• 16:06
  Presbyterian. I don't believe it's anything
• 16:09
  and yet and it doesn't matter what you believe because if
• 16:12
  you're making these tools to practice mediumship that that's
• 16:15
  what it is and. And when you were as as early as
• 16:18
  middle school, so you had the lights experience at 7, did you
• 16:21
  have some sort of spiritual experience connected to that
• 16:26
  Ouija board or other things? You know, after 7, between say 7
• 16:29
  and 17, the time that you're meeting this guy.
• 16:32
  Yeah, yeah, I would, I would have called them maybe
• 16:36
  supernatural. It's more of those spooky things
• 16:37
  like lights turning off and you're not 100% sure why, but
• 16:41
  you get that thrill of, you know, the supernatural kind of
• 16:44
  chasing this high of supernatural experiences.
• 16:46
  I mean, people are so fascinated by the supernatural and the
• 16:50
  spooky things and and wanting to know more.
• 16:53
  And that was definitely me. I didn't have anything as
• 16:55
  profoundly life changing as that one moment.
• 16:59
  Actually, yes, I did. When I was young, there was just
• 17:03
  a moment when I was in a house and I remember seeing a shadowed
• 17:06
  figure that at that time I believed with Satan.
• 17:09
  Now, I don't necessarily believe it was Satan, but something
• 17:12
  dark. And I believed that it was
• 17:15
  telling me that it wanted me to to basically continue in
• 17:20
  rebellion and, and follow that path.
• 17:22
  And I could go back to being who I who I really was and who I
• 17:25
  supposed to be later, but to have fun for now.
• 17:28
  And that moment really stood out to me as I chose, OK, I'm going
• 17:31
  to just keep living in, you know, the, I believe at that
• 17:34
  time the abuse had stopped. But just keep living in this
• 17:37
  lie, keep living in this pursuit of these things.
• 17:40
  I know I shouldn't necessarily be doing still as it as a young
• 17:43
  kid, but knowing it's wrong. But I'm just going to have fun
• 17:46
  and go back to, you know, doing the right thing later.
• 17:49
  I went and when you're talking about that, and I think, you
• 17:51
  know, I don't know if you're referencing like the abuse, but
• 17:54
  I know for some little kids with the abuse, like, you know,
• 17:57
  there's this psychological thing where they act out the abuse
• 17:59
  like they it's something that becomes they're habituated too.
• 18:02
  And it's very difficult to disentangle that there's they're
• 18:05
  they're babies, they're little. Was it so much that or was it
• 18:09
  more just, you know, I want to be a tough bad kid?
• 18:12
  What was when you say rebellion, what did that look like?
• 18:14
  That's a really, really good question.
• 18:16
  I don't think anyone's ever asked me that.
• 18:18
  On one hand, it was, it was definitely.
• 18:20
  And I know that I can only speak for myself and for myself, there
• 18:23
  was a point where I what it was sin for me, like what was going
• 18:28
  on and when I was lying about it.
• 18:30
  But when you're young, when you're that young and
• 18:33
  experiencing abuse and it wasn't sin.
• 18:35
  It was something that was happening to me.
• 18:37
  And even if I was to your point, acting out there, especially
• 18:41
  when I was first sharing my testimony, like and because I
• 18:45
  really did stuff it down for so many years, that was kind of
• 18:48
  hard for me to, you know, parse out how much of me acting out
• 18:51
  was just like the consequences of sin done to me.
• 18:55
  How much of it was at what age did I know that what I was doing
• 18:58
  was wrong? When I was in middle school, I
• 19:00
  actually started, I had AI guess homosexual relationship and that
• 19:07
  was, you know, mutual. But I felt guilt for the some of
• 19:10
  the things I showed this person that I had been taught as a
• 19:13
  child and, and just kind of sorting through all that.
• 19:17
  So it's such a good question because I never want my
• 19:19
  experience to be put on someone because even though at a certain
• 19:22
  point I do, I knew what was wrong.
• 19:25
  I had the ability to be aware of that.
• 19:27
  And I chose I'm just going to be bad and I want to be bad and
• 19:30
  it's fun to be bad. And then there there was a lot
• 19:33
  of times when it was consequences of being sinned
• 19:36
  against. Well, and I think too, like it's
• 19:38
  it's hindsight's 2020 often and you had only the help that you
• 19:43
  had. You only knew what you knew, you
• 19:45
  know, so there was some innocence there where you can do
• 19:49
  something as wrong as a little kid and not know what's wrong.
• 19:51
  Like you know, when your two year old bites you, they're not
• 19:54
  necessarily doing that because they're like malicious biting,
• 19:57
  right? They're just exploring, they're
• 19:58
  doing things. So it is a always the question
• 20:01
  like at what point do you do you know what you're doing is wrong?
• 20:05
  Maybe you know a little bit of it.
• 20:06
  You don't know the big. Picture, maybe you choose it a
• 20:08
  little bit, but you're not choosing it fully, right?
• 20:10
  There's all of these variations to it.
• 20:12
  But it sounds like what you're saying though is there was this
• 20:14
  sort of directional pole. Yes.
• 20:17
  In part because of the woundedness, we were like I, I
• 20:20
  want to go down. What felt to you like it was
• 20:22
  dark, but it still was a place you wanted to be.
• 20:25
  Is that is that a fairway to? Yes, yeah, OK.
• 20:27
  There's definitely a certain point where my desire to
• 20:30
  continue pursuing these highs of supernatural experience and even
• 20:33
  just living this Revalia's lifestyle.
• 20:35
  I was aware that it was sin. I wouldn't called it sin, but I
• 20:37
  was aware that it was against God.
• 20:38
  Something in your conscience was bothering you.
• 20:40
  Absolutely. So you're doing the Ouija board
• 20:43
  stuff. You are, you know, seeking maybe
• 20:45
  more supernatural experiences. You're having this, you know,
• 20:49
  homosexual relationship of sorts with this other young person at
• 20:52
  some point. Was there any, was there
• 20:54
  anything else that kind of you can share that maybe open the
• 20:58
  door to you getting Morehead first, you know, falling into
• 21:01
  the new age? Yeah, I think a lot of it was,
• 21:03
  you know, staying up all night doing drugs, wanting a lot of it
• 21:06
  was fear of man, like wanting people to, you know, think so.
• 21:10
  As a as a high school student, you were doing drugs, so that
• 21:14
  became part of it too. And what at what age, around
• 21:16
  what age was it? Did drugs enter the picture for
• 21:18
  you? OK.
• 21:19
  Yeah. And yeah, so I didn't, I really
• 21:22
  didn't want to do drugs or alcohol because I'd seen first
• 21:24
  hand up close it destroyed my dad's life and the lives of
• 21:27
  people that I loved. But I was so desperate to escape
• 21:31
  myself. I just thought, again, I'll go
• 21:33
  back to doing what I know is right later.
• 21:34
  For now, I'm just going to do this thing.
• 21:36
  I don't want to lose my friends. And so that really fed into the,
• 21:40
  you know, being contemplative on psychoactive marijuana, for
• 21:45
  example, you know, feeds into thinking about, OK, now I'm on a
• 21:50
  Native American reservation doing drugs, thinking about
• 21:52
  these things. Maybe I need to, to be more open
• 21:54
  minded. Who am I to say that the Native
• 21:55
  Americans didn't, you know, have this right?
• 21:58
  Maybe I'm just close minded and I started to have a disdain
• 22:02
  towards Christianity, you know, thinking that I knew so much
• 22:05
  about it. Really, I I didn't know that
• 22:07
  much about it at all. Did you know that over 140,000
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  goodranchers.com. Did you have any spiritual ish
• 23:14
  experiences while you were on drugs?
• 23:16
  Definitely later I later on in a different relationship, I tried
• 23:23
  LSD and that just seemed to confirm the alien experience
• 23:28
  that I had. I believed I could see just
• 23:31
  piercing through the sky, see all these highways of of aliens
• 23:35
  and it was a very terrifying experience.
• 23:37
  But from that moment on to having, you know, tapped into
• 23:40
  this weird or really just opened my mind up to these lies being
• 23:44
  put in my mind really continued me thinking, OK, these
• 23:48
  experiences that I had, this is it.
• 23:50
  And my Christian dogma is just holding me back from being truly
• 23:54
  awakened, truly ascended, truly open minded.
• 23:57
  And maybe I can get to know Christ, but not the Christ of
• 24:00
  the Bible. Like clearly there's something
• 24:01
  more because I had this crazy experience and just more and
• 24:06
  more, the deeper I would go into it, the more I would grow this
• 24:09
  disdain for Christianity again, not even knowing the gospel and
• 24:13
  thinking that I just needed to continue pushing down any of my
• 24:17
  conscience, bearing witness and running into this in order to be
• 24:20
  a free spirit at. What point did you actually
• 24:23
  start practicing the occult and tell me about the lead up to
• 24:27
  that. Yeah, yeah.
• 24:28
  So I got into a relationship, the one the one that I tried LSD
• 24:32
  in with a man who I didn't know was a new Ager or deep in the
• 24:37
  new age but. How old were you at this point?
• 24:40
  I would have been 19, I believe, and he was teaching me all these
• 24:45
  things about karma and the universe and ascending.
• 24:48
  And right when I saw him, I felt that same familiar feeling that
• 24:51
  I felt with those entities back when I was a child.
• 24:54
  And I just felt I, I actually, the night that I met him, I
• 24:57
  never left his side and became this very, my previous
• 25:02
  relationship with the on the Native American reservation was
• 25:06
  physically abusive, but this relationship was spiritually
• 25:10
  just toxic. And he really became God to me.
• 25:14
  I hung on his every word. And in that relationship, he was
• 25:19
  a DJ. And at first it was at at this
• 25:22
  point I'm in Hollywood. And at first it was at big clubs
• 25:27
  in Hollywood, but then it moved to be at kind of Burning Man
• 25:32
  type transformational music festivals.
• 25:35
  And at those festivals, you know, there was all this stuff
• 25:38
  going on that was really new to me.
• 25:40
  Like I've never been around what the world would call hippies.
• 25:43
  And they seem so free and sexually liberated.
• 25:46
  And we're charging their crystals and trading, giving me
• 25:49
  crystals for free and. Was this an actual Burning Man
• 25:53
  you went to or just festivals like it?
• 25:55
  A festival like it yeah, here in California, most of them were
• 26:00
  and yeah. So started being really
• 26:03
  attracted to. OK, these people seem to be
• 26:06
  ascending and in that relationship too.
• 26:08
  I believed that relationship was maybe the darkest point of my
• 26:13
  life where I just. I believed he could always see
• 26:15
  me. I kept having synchronicities,
• 26:17
  seeing 1111 or you know, 222 that must mean this thing.
• 26:22
  And everything became like a sign.
• 26:25
  So I also, having started doing psychedelic drugs with this
• 26:29
  person, really opening myself up, letting go of any knowledge
• 26:33
  that I had about Christ because I wanted to be accepted by this
• 26:37
  person. And in that relationship he was
• 26:43
  would talk about sorcery kind of things.
• 26:45
  He bragged about giving someone Crohn's disease by focusing all
• 26:50
  of his negative energy on that person every day and to get back
• 26:53
  at them until one day they got this thing.
• 26:56
  And he intentionally was wanting a person to get Crohn's disease
• 27:00
  and would pray for it or demonic intercession for it.
• 27:04
  I don't know what that correct term would be for that.
• 27:07
  But he would kind of curse them. Right.
• 27:08
  On a daily basis. Yes.
• 27:09
  And they got Crohn's disease. Yes.
• 27:11
  Do you know if that actually happened?
• 27:12
  I have no idea. Yeah.
• 27:14
  Was was he prone to brag about kind of spiritual powers that he
• 27:17
  had? Yes, yes.
• 27:18
  So you would think that I would think, OK, this is probably not
• 27:22
  a good thing. But by that point it had been
• 27:24
  years. And I looked at so much yes,
• 27:27
  that I just thought like, oh, I feel bad for him.
• 27:30
  This isn't great, but I love him and I just must not understand
• 27:35
  it. So that kind of got me thinking
• 27:37
  about energy work. And I didn't want to hurt anyone
• 27:39
  but the intrigue. And we're meditating with our
• 27:42
  crystals. We're doing more psychedelic
• 27:44
  drugs for the purpose of having supernatural experiences.
• 27:47
  So still this really lust for the supernatural being lured
• 27:51
  away and enticed by my own lust drove me deeper and deeper into
• 27:57
  more of the occult. And maybe then I still would
• 27:59
  have been new age tiptoeing into the occult.
• 28:02
  But when that relationship ended, it was very confusing.
• 28:06
  It was by that point I every single thing was a sign.
• 28:10
  Every sound was a sign like I couldn't have a conversation
• 28:14
  with another person because I was just so tripped out as so
• 28:18
  not grounded in reality. So not sober minded and, and
• 28:23
  when it ended, he said he was coming back for me.
• 28:26
  I had just moved into a studio apartment in Hollywood and I
• 28:29
  just felt so alone. My dad was homeless at this
• 28:31
  time. And I just thought because, for
• 28:35
  example, at those festivals, there was stuff going on, you
• 28:39
  know, the kind of orgies that we see in the Bible Tantra place
• 28:44
  like play, it's called. And I personally couldn't do
• 28:48
  that. I was embarrassed that there was
• 28:52
  just something in me that felt sick about it.
• 28:54
  I. And he, so this boyfriend was
• 28:56
  asking you to get involved in these things.
• 28:58
  He or he was involved in these things.
• 29:01
  I don't know if he was involved. It was the festivals that we
• 29:03
  were going to and the people that were there were, you know,
• 29:06
  inviting me to the Tantra tent and stuff like that.
• 29:08
  And I thought this purse, this boyfriend looks up to these
• 29:12
  people so much and they seem so liberated.
• 29:16
  They aren't held down by dogma. They can just be free, be
• 29:19
  sexually liberated, be spiritually liberated.
• 29:22
  And I, I just honestly had this desperate desire to be approved
• 29:26
  of by this, by this man. And so I was disgusted with
• 29:29
  myself that I felt I just couldn't do that.
• 29:32
  And so when we broke up, I just thought, it's my Christian dogma
• 29:38
  holding me back like that. That's why I don't have the
• 29:40
  power that he wants me to have or that the people that he likes
• 29:44
  has throughout my life. Like, clearly I'm not
• 29:47
  manifesting my life well. My dad's homeless, I'm
• 29:50
  miserable. I lost the love of my life.
• 29:53
  So was he or did he break up with you or did you?
• 29:56
  How did that relationship deteriorate?
• 29:59
  So he said that he basically he wasn't making it in Hollywood.
• 30:05
  He had to move back to his hometown to make a life so that
• 30:08
  he could support us. Sounds like the manifesting
• 30:11
  wasn't working for him. Either that's a great point that
• 30:14
  I didn't even think about at the time and that he loved me more
• 30:17
  than I loved him. So he had to date someone else
• 30:19
  right away to distract himself. But only we knew our connection.
• 30:23
  So I I couldn't doubt it. And of course people were going
• 30:27
  to come into my life and say like clearly, you know he
• 30:30
  doesn't love you. Look at this.
• 30:31
  But but you know our connection, only we know our connection.
• 30:35
  And because of so many drug induced trips, so many just
• 30:38
  weird spiritual experiences that were happening in that
• 30:41
  relationship, I just thought only only we know our
• 30:45
  relationship. And so I just have to keep
• 30:47
  believing I know he's coming back for me.
• 30:50
  And I just lived in that delusion for years.
• 30:53
  Were you? When you say the new age, it was
• 30:56
  the new age, but it wasn't the occult yet.
• 30:58
  What do you mean by that? Yeah, it's a great question.
• 31:02
  The line is blurred, I would say.
• 31:04
  But in, in my opinion, I would say when I think of the New Age,
• 31:08
  I think of more hippies like crystals charging your crystals
• 31:14
  in the moon, maybe sometimes tarot, psychic work,
• 31:17
  clairvoyance and UFOs to maybe some new thought in there.
• 31:22
  The the secret is somewhat new thought.
• 31:25
  It's also a cult, but just kind of mixing all those things.
• 31:29
  But when I really snapped when that relationship ended, I just
• 31:32
  thought I need to push down any of my conscience bearing witness
• 31:37
  and just dive in. And so that's when I, I, well,
• 31:41
  when I really want to say, I just want to speak of God's
• 31:45
  kindness it in, especially before it gets really dark,
• 31:48
  because God was so kind to convict me at, or at least for
• 31:52
  my conscience to be screaming out that this is not right.
• 31:55
  I, I'm so thankful that I was unhappy.
• 31:57
  I'm so thankful for God's kindness to me to restrain me
• 32:02
  from partaking in those things. And I'm so thankful that Jesus
• 32:06
  Christ truly is the Savior and that it doesn't end.
• 32:10
  Here. Amen.
• 32:10
  Yeah. So, but, and then when all that
• 32:15
  happened, I just, I, I believed I was being led by an entity
• 32:19
  called Thoth, which is an ancient Egyptian deity, really
• 32:24
  demon. And again, at that time I was,
• 32:28
  it was all signs and synchronicities for me and I was
• 32:31
  led to this Freemason lodge. I'm so sorry, I have to ask.
• 32:35
  You've mentioned it a few times. Synchronicity.
• 32:38
  Is that a technical world for word, for the occult, or for New
• 32:41
  Age? What do you mean by
• 32:42
  synchronicities? It basically means when you
• 32:48
  almost like serendipity, like when something happens and it's
• 32:50
  a coincidence. Yes, but then in the new age you
• 32:53
  think this has to mean something.
• 32:55
  If I keep seeing 1111 when this man calls me, then it's a
• 32:59
  synchronicity. Or if, for example, Angel
• 33:03
  numbers you OK, I keep seeing 22.
• 33:06
  That must mean something. Let me look up what the
• 33:08
  synchronicity this thing that keeps happening means.
• 33:10
  And really it can lead into divination, which it did for me
• 33:14
  that then you're thinking, OK, I keep seeing these things.
• 33:16
  Let me interpret this sign in Omen.
• 33:18
  What does it mean? And that's really popular in the
• 33:21
  new age because there's this a learning quality defining magic
• 33:24
  in the mundane. Like who, who wouldn't want
• 33:27
  that? You know, the big lie is life is
• 33:29
  super magical. You're just stuck in this matrix
• 33:32
  and religion is keeping you down.
• 33:34
  Just become liberated and then everything becomes fun.
• 33:37
  The you know, the reality is that it's a huge trap that leads
• 33:41
  to eternal death. But that was very enticing to me
• 33:45
  and it was leading me into this totally not OK state of mind
• 33:51
  where I was again, couldn't have a, a normal conversation.
• 33:54
  But I was just completely opening myself up and being LED
• 34:00
  by these signs and then by these entities.
• 34:02
  And in that relationship to using drugs for supernatural
• 34:08
  experiences, I believe that these entities wanted to use my
• 34:11
  body and see through my eyes in meditation, which I'd started.
• 34:15
  That's another part of the New age meditation, guided
• 34:17
  meditation. But I didn't think of that as
• 34:20
  possession. I just thought like, like since
• 34:24
  I was a child, I'm special to them, they want to use me.
• 34:26
  I've been chosen for this. Just so much deception but
• 34:30
  genuinely wanting to open up myself to be this vessel used by
• 34:33
  them. I love Seven Weeks Coffee
• 34:36
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• 34:39
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• 35:38
  Plus you'll get your free gift. I have one more question just
• 35:41
  about your thought process in this, because again, I think
• 35:43
  it's so instructive for people listening because this stuff is
• 35:46
  there's so much of the stuff out there, the secret, but there's
• 35:49
  so much like symbolism, occult stuff, obviously psychics, you
• 35:53
  know, you download an app, there's this app called peanut
• 35:55
  app for like moms and it's like, do you want to meet other moms
• 35:58
  who are into like their tarot card readings or whatever?
• 36:00
  I mean, it's just it's everywhere, right?
• 36:02
  Was there and you're in Hollywood at this time too,
• 36:05
  you're in LA Was there pop cultural you know influences on
• 36:11
  you besides the secret like other TV shows, I you know other
• 36:16
  you know other other things that you think were part of the
• 36:19
  influence this influence on you that's a good.
• 36:21
  Question. I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't
• 36:23
  have said so in the moment. But in retrospect, like even
• 36:27
  just mainstream music, I think Katy Perry and her music videos,
• 36:31
  there's there's deep, deep occult symbolism in so many of
• 36:35
  them that I just watch it back. And I'm thinking this is wild
• 36:38
  that I was watching this years before I got into the occult,
• 36:42
  but I was still really attracted to this like mystery and power.
• 36:46
  So looking back, I do think there is this intrigue when you
• 36:48
  see, say a really successful person or maybe someone who is
• 36:54
  really successful in business and they they manifested it and
• 36:57
  you can manifest your life too, Mom, like you're having a hard
• 37:00
  time. You can manifest this.
• 37:01
  Let's manifest our best 2025. It's attractive, and maybe it's
• 37:05
  coming from a person of power. That was enticing to me to
• 37:09
  seeing people like the guy who did Chicken Noodle Soup for the
• 37:12
  Soul, was a big proponent of the law of attraction, and he's so
• 37:17
  successful. Like, he seems great.
• 37:18
  Why wouldn't that be attractive? What is?
• 37:20
  The law of attraction, by the way.
• 37:21
  And what how is that tied into the new age?
• 37:22
  I know you mentioned it earlier. Yes, the law of attraction is
• 37:25
  basically thoughts create things and kind of it ties in the
• 37:29
  occult idea of as above, so below and really the idea is
• 37:33
  that you're a microcosm of the macrocosm.
• 37:36
  So I am basically ultimately you are God.
• 37:40
  That's the grand lie. When you follow these all to
• 37:43
  their end, it's it's great news. You are God and the God of the
• 37:47
  Bible is the bad guy, which is such demonic deception that
• 37:51
  destroys souls. But really that's what you find
• 37:54
  at the end of all of it. So the idea is that because I'm
• 37:58
  a microcosm of the macrocosm or because I'm I'm a little I'm a
• 38:02
  little God. Basically, I'm a reflection of
• 38:05
  God. I can manifest into the into the
• 38:10
  world what is inside of me and so out picturing that.
• 38:15
  So you can, you know, if I want a red car, then I need to really
• 38:20
  see myself in a red car. Imagine how it feels, you know,
• 38:23
  really see it, use visualization, believe that I
• 38:26
  already have it, only ask once and then I'll manifest it.
• 38:29
  So the law of attraction is, is ultimately, guess what?
• 38:32
  You have the power to have whatever you want and you're the
• 38:35
  most powerful magnetic force in the universe and ultimately
• 38:40
  makes you God. It's crazy because we have so as
• 38:43
  Christians, like we can ask the Father in his name and when two
• 38:46
  or more gathered together or you know, why would he?
• 38:49
  You know, when you pretty your father, why would he give you,
• 38:51
  you know, a rock when you're asking for bread like God as our
• 38:54
  father, so he will provide. So it's like there's an element
• 38:57
  there, this trust in the universe that if you trusted in
• 39:01
  the true God, you will provide, right?
• 39:04
  But then obviously it's making yourself God.
• 39:06
  So it's just, but that's all of it, right?
• 39:08
  Every, every, every false religion is aping parts of the
• 39:12
  truth to try to win people over, to deceive them.
• 39:17
  Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's amazing
• 39:19
  to see. I mean, I went to UCLA.
• 39:22
  You spent years living in Los Angeles.
• 39:24
  It's everywhere. I mean, not just in LA.
• 39:26
  It's all over the world, I think, but certainly in parts of
• 39:29
  the United States. It's concentrated.
• 39:31
  But you see this, you know, New Ageism, signs of the occult, and
• 39:36
  it's so normalized. Yes, and even in the book the
• 39:39
  secret it pulls from the Bible verses completely out of
• 39:42
  context. So you can read the Bible like a
• 39:44
  fortune cookie or something completely stripped of context.
• 39:47
  Make the verse mean whatever you want it to mean and trying to
• 39:49
  justify law of attraction using those.
• 39:51
  So that was upsetting, but you're absolutely right.
• 39:54
  And I'm I'm so thankful for the relationship that we have with
• 39:58
  God as Father in Christ. But in the law of attraction, it
• 40:03
  completely tries to thwart God's sovereignty saying.
• 40:06
  Not only is what you want to have best, and not only can you
• 40:10
  make it happen, but like you deserve it.
• 40:12
  So yeah. So you were, I, I took you on a
• 40:16
  tangent. So thank you for going down
• 40:17
  there with me. But you were getting up to the
• 40:18
  point where you were, I think you had just mentioned going to
• 40:20
  this Freemason lodge. So you're, you broke up with the
• 40:22
  guy or you guys separated. You're kind of like saying I'm
• 40:26
  going to let off whatever Christian dogma is holding me
• 40:29
  down. I'm going to go all in on the
• 40:30
  occult. And you're describing what that
• 40:32
  looked like. Yes.
• 40:33
  So I was just walking one day, this building literally glowed
• 40:37
  to me. Like to me, there was this white
• 40:40
  energy coming off of it. And so I was so intrigued by it.
• 40:44
  I sat outside on the grass and, and just was like soaking in the
• 40:48
  energy. And I learned that it was a
• 40:50
  Freemason lodge. So that got me on this track of
• 40:53
  like, OK, this is the next thing.
• 40:55
  Also at that time in LA, yes, also at that time, I'd been at a
• 40:59
  metaphysical shop and these tarot cards glowed to me in the
• 41:02
  same way. And it was the Thoth deck by a
• 41:06
  man named Aleister Crowley. And so I just thought, oh,
• 41:09
  that's the next thing I'm I'm going to get now.
• 41:11
  Aleister Crowley is known as the most wicked man to have ever
• 41:14
  lived. He brought, well, he brought
• 41:17
  esotericism largely to the West, but he especially brought sex
• 41:21
  magic and just really dark stuff.
• 41:24
  He called himself the Beast. What is?
• 41:26
  Esoterism and sex. Sex magic.
• 41:29
  Esotericism is similar to the word occult.
• 41:32
  It's just kind of like esoteric is something that is only meant
• 41:36
  to be understood by a small amount of people.
• 41:38
  So you know, only the only if you've really been called to
• 41:41
  this can you know. And then the occult is kind of
• 41:44
  just hidden. It means hidden.
• 41:45
  So it's things that are hidden for only special people to know.
• 41:51
  And so he brought a lot of that kind of, you think, secret
• 41:55
  societies, you think what goes on behind closed doors, that
• 41:59
  kind of stuff. And sex magic is awful.
• 42:03
  It's similar to Tantra which is Eastern, which again brings in
• 42:08
  the idea that it's basically pantheistic or panentheistic,
• 42:13
  meaning either God is all or and all is God, which is pantheism
• 42:18
  or basically everything is God. But God is also like transcends
• 42:23
  it to both are total lies. But Tantra ties that in so that
• 42:29
  basically it it it uses sex and they would say the divine
• 42:34
  masculine and the divine feminine and uniting those
• 42:38
  dualities to then basically reach moksha, which is spiritual
• 42:43
  liberation. So it's the same liar combining
• 42:46
  duality to reach spiritual liberation and their different
• 42:50
  kinds of Tantra. Some are more open, both are
• 42:53
  perverse, but some are more openly perverse.
• 42:54
  Some are more kind of spiritualizing those things.
• 42:57
  Sex magic is very similar, but instead of for the purpose
• 43:01
  necessarily of spiritual liberation, it's for the purpose
• 43:04
  of making your will be done. And that was Aleister Coley
• 43:07
  saying do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
• 43:10
  So it's yes, absolutely. Complete inversion of thy will
• 43:15
  be done. Yes, crazy.
• 43:17
  So he brought that over and that I mean, that's where we see
• 43:19
  people. I mean, I don't, I don't know
• 43:21
  how much I can get into on YouTube, but the things that he
• 43:23
  taught and believed with blood and fluids and children is
• 43:29
  brings a lot of that kind of stuff and the Coltie stuff in.
• 43:33
  What was his name again? Aleister Crowley So.
• 43:35
  You discover Aleister Crowley and he when you met, you
• 43:39
  mentioned sex magic and then you mentioned, you know, blood,
• 43:42
  liquids, children, like the extremely dark stuff.
• 43:45
  Obviously, we're publishing this on YouTube and, you know, I
• 43:48
  don't know that we need to get into super graphic descriptions,
• 43:50
  but many people know, you know, especially in Hollywood, there's
• 43:54
  these accusations of and these sort of theories about, you
• 43:58
  know, people in high places of power doing really horrific
• 44:02
  blood rituals, sexually abusive rituals, including potentially
• 44:07
  involving children in order to, you know, basically serve
• 44:11
  demons, serve this evil 1 in order for them to get ahead,
• 44:15
  basically, and to have what they want.
• 44:18
  Yeah, and it all sounds like conspiracy.
• 44:20
  Unless, you know what he taught. Not what Aleister Crowley
• 44:24
  taught, but also how revered he was in the big circles in
• 44:29
  Hollywood. He was on The Beatles album
• 44:31
  cover Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
• 44:33
  He was. Alistair.
• 44:35
  Crowley. Crowley was on the cover of a
• 44:37
  Beatles album, The man who was promoting sex magic and
• 44:40
  ultimately, what was sexually abusive of children.
• 44:43
  And someone has a song called Mr. Crowley, I believe it is The
• 44:47
  Beatles. You'll have to check me on that.
• 44:48
  But but he was revered in. But was was the part about
• 44:53
  abusing kids? Maybe drinking blood?
• 44:55
  Like the very horrific dark parts?
• 44:57
  I mean, the worst of all would be abusing the child.
• 44:59
  Right. It's all, it's all scary.
• 45:01
  Was that something that was, you know, written down that he
• 45:05
  taught, I mean. Yes, it's hard to, I mean, of
• 45:08
  course, it's like believe the best.
• 45:09
  It's hard to know how much people knew.
• 45:11
  But even just at face value, like he called himself the B666,
• 45:15
  like that's what he called himself.
• 45:16
  So it's hard to justify revering a character of that sort.
• 45:21
  But again, who am I to be saying that?
• 45:24
  Because I was, I tried to justify it.
• 45:27
  I had all these this moral ambiguity.
• 45:29
  And that's a huge problem in this culture where everything's
• 45:31
  subjective when you don't have the Bible as the authority, when
• 45:35
  you're not looking to Scripture, but you're you're just, you
• 45:37
  know, whatever feels right. Then I just thought, OK, how,
• 45:42
  how maybe maybe he was just misunderstood.
• 45:44
  You know, he was really against Christianity and pushing back to
• 45:48
  it. So maybe it was just he was able
• 45:50
  to break free from dogma. And maybe all that stuff is, I
• 45:53
  just don't understand. Maybe it was spiritual, maybe
• 45:55
  didn't mean it like that. Like all these justifications I,
• 45:57
  I tried to make because I was drawn toward him specifically.
• 46:03
  And on the tarot cards, I learned about the Hermetic Order
• 46:10
  of the Golden Dawn, which is in a Hermetic order that he was
• 46:13
  once in, he ended up being kicked out of.
• 46:16
  But then I started feeling really drawn to that Hermetic.
• 46:19
  Order. What is a Hermetic Order?
• 46:22
  It's a great question. Hermetic means tightly sealed.
• 46:26
  So it basically again, is this, you know, all the same, like,
• 46:30
  oh, this is how exciting is secret knowledge.
• 46:33
  And again, we, we think back to Genesis 3, how tempting
• 46:36
  forbidden knowledge, secret knowledge is the tree of the
• 46:38
  knowledge of good and evil. And so that's basically these
• 46:42
  things promise that there's this secret knowledge that you've
• 46:46
  been called to. So you only the teacher appears
• 46:50
  when the student is ready is a phrase that they use a lot like
• 46:52
  you're only, you'll only learn about it if you're being called
• 46:56
  to this thing. So it really feeds on the pride
• 46:59
  of that. And so basically this Hermetic
• 47:02
  order practiced alchemy magic, not like a performance magic,
• 47:08
  but ritual magic. And in vacations it was really
• 47:12
  into Kabbalistic things. Kabbalah, which is basically
• 47:18
  Kabbalah is Jewish mysticism. And there's a lot of using the
• 47:22
  Bible in that order, but completely out of context.
• 47:25
  Have you heard of the Abbey of Thalingma?
• 47:28
  I think I've heard of Thelema. So Aleister Callie started
• 47:31
  Thelema. Yes.
• 47:32
  Because I'm, I'm just trying to connect the dot because again, I
• 47:35
  think the accusation is like Q Anon, you know, it's just a
• 47:39
  bunch of like people that have these morals that are like all
• 47:42
  buttoned up. The Christians who are saying,
• 47:43
  oh, Hollywood is involved in demonic, you know, sex rituals,
• 47:47
  abusing children. Like, again, not all of
• 47:49
  Hollywood, obviously, but there's some really dark stuff
• 47:51
  that's being practiced here. And, you know, there's real
• 47:55
  children whose lives are at risk here.
• 47:58
  This is a concern that some people have.
• 48:01
  And obviously child sexual abuse exists.
• 48:03
  Obviously you've endured it and sex trafficking exists.
• 48:06
  And, you know, we obviously talk about that on the show.
• 48:09
  But I just want to go back to this idea that this Aleister
• 48:12
  Crowley and my understanding is with this Thelma or Albie of
• 48:16
  Thelma, that this is where there are accusations that there were
• 48:20
  there was ritualistic abuse of children.
• 48:23
  So I am, I'm just curious if you have any other thoughts on that.
• 48:28
  Yeah, it was kind of like a well known secret among some.
• 48:32
  But then it's not that it's not like Aleister Crowley was ever
• 48:35
  convicted of the abuse of children, right.
• 48:37
  So this again these these things are hard to can be hard to
• 48:40
  parse. Yeah, and I and I get that it
• 48:43
  can especially like if you're air dropped into it, it can
• 48:45
  sound like, OK, what are you talking about?
• 48:47
  But again, understanding his belief system, understanding his
• 48:51
  and, and he was kicked out of the Golden Dawn for black magic
• 48:55
  and, and doing what you're not supposed to do and started his
• 49:00
  own kind of schools of thought, one of like being Thelma.
• 49:04
  And so it, it's really not surprising to hear that because
• 49:08
  again, those were his belief systems.
• 49:09
  He believed that there's power in blood, power and fluid and
• 49:13
  you know, sex magic power in sexual energy.
• 49:20
  Did they believe that children could be sexually involved or
• 49:24
  active? Was that part of the belief or
• 49:26
  was that not really spoken about?
• 49:27
  Yeah. So it's a good question too.
• 49:29
  In the order that I was in that I ended up joining, this wasn't
• 49:33
  talked about and it could have been the grade that I the grade
• 49:36
  is like you move up grades, the grade that I was in.
• 49:39
  Maybe if I had stayed in it for years and years, maybe that
• 49:43
  would have came out, but but Alice Crowley having been in
• 49:48
  this order and me reading his works and his beliefs.
• 49:51
  This is coming from my understanding of Crowley, but
• 49:53
  not what I saw in the order. However, in the order there was
• 49:59
  the belief system there was so congruent with Alice Crowley's
• 50:04
  teachings and beliefs about the universe, beliefs about.
• 50:08
  I mean, we were taking it's so awful.
• 50:10
  We were taking Eucharist. It was called Eucharist, but to
• 50:16
  that makes me emotional to Osiris, which is the Egyptian
• 50:21
  deity and so. Where were you getting
• 50:24
  Eucharist? What?
• 50:25
  What do you mean? So they would call it Eucharist.
• 50:28
  It wasn't really they. Pretend this is Jesus.
• 50:30
  Right, yeah, aren't, or I would say no, they they, they
• 50:37
  blasphemed the whole thing. So they would say that they're
• 50:40
  just almost making an offering to Osiris, but they so I I hope
• 50:46
  I'm not skipping ahead too much, but in the order the reason why
• 50:51
  I joined it is because there was a crot well, one, I was I was
• 50:54
  feeling drawn to it and I kept being afraid to join it because
• 50:57
  I knew Austin Crowley had been in it.
• 50:58
  And again, I'm sorry. I'm going to pause again.
• 51:02
  God is so kind because he is truly perfectly holy.
• 51:06
  Like he every good thing that I have ever received any of us
• 51:10
  have ever received, God gave us. He is perfectly good.
• 51:13
  He's only been good to us and all have sinned and fallen short
• 51:17
  of his glory. We've all gone our own way.
• 51:19
  I I can speak for myself, I definitely have, but all of us
• 51:22
  have. And that the there's a very just
• 51:25
  punishment for that, which is a very real place called hell,
• 51:28
  where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth and eternal
• 51:30
  torment. And that's where I was headed.
• 51:32
  And but God is love, and that he fulfilled that by God the
• 51:38
  Father, sending his Son Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, who
• 51:42
  lived a perfect life fully God fully man tempted as we are,
• 51:46
  never sinning, never sinning. And he went to the cross,
• 51:49
  despising the shame, where he was beaten, mocked, scourged and
• 51:54
  crucified, and where He on the cross bore sin and, and that
• 51:59
  just punishment of God, the wrath of God in the place of
• 52:01
  sinners, which is absolutely amazing.
• 52:05
  And then he died, was buried three days, rose on the third
• 52:08
  day, and is now and then ascended to the right hand of
• 52:11
  God the Father as the one mediator.
• 52:13
  The Bible says between God and man that all who turned from
• 52:17
  their sin repent and believe in Jesus, can be washed clean, made
• 52:21
  a new creation, have everlasting eternal life, not by merit, but
• 52:24
  because of Christ's perfect work, is so amazing.
• 52:27
  And so thinking of the truth of the Savior who suffered and died
• 52:33
  in the place of sinners, bloodshed in the place of
• 52:36
  sinners, to talk about this, it's very emotional because that
• 52:41
  is the truth that is the one and only true God.
• 52:43
  It's emotional for you now looking back on it, yes, because
• 52:46
  you know who Jesus is and you know how he saved you.
• 52:48
  So you're like, yes, imagining yourself doing what you did,
• 52:51
  right, blindly, largely. It's painful, right?
• 52:54
  Absolutely. What?
• 52:55
  What was it that was you were describing?
• 52:57
  You were saying you would. This was part of the new order
• 53:00
  that you joined. So now going into that, I would
• 53:04
  have so because I got scared and I saw this cross on the card
• 53:08
  deck and I thought, OK, you know, making my morally, my own
• 53:14
  moral judgments. There's a cross on this Golden
• 53:17
  Dawn thing like their logo is a cross.
• 53:19
  So therefore God must be OK with it and just making these weird
• 53:24
  justifications. And then in the order they in
• 53:29
  the Hermetic order, they say they worship the Tetragrammaton.
• 53:32
  So they say they worship Yodhe Vavhe, the God of the Bible.
• 53:36
  And yet they do so by invoking Egyptian deities, including
• 53:43
  bound down to golden statue of Osiris, I'm sorry of Isis.
• 53:47
  And then also part of the ritual magic, the rituals was called
• 53:52
  Eucharist to Osiris, which was they would say, so again,
• 53:58
  thinking that I am a Christian still, although I went back and
• 54:01
  forth on that, they would say that Jesus is a type of Osiris.
• 54:06
  So they would say they believe in Jesus.
• 54:09
  They would say that you can be a Christian and be in it.
• 54:11
  But they would say that Jesus is a type of this Osiris figure,
• 54:13
  Osiris, the Redeemer, blasphemy, awful.
• 54:17
  And that in taking wine, bread. And I believe there's another
• 54:22
  element that it was worship. And I, my conscience was
• 54:27
  screaming out, but I just kept thinking what I was taught in
• 54:31
  this occult order, which is that Christians have a small amount
• 54:35
  of knowledge. And then these traditions have
• 54:37
  been passed down by ancient schools of knowledge that are
• 54:41
  hidden for only the selected to acquire.
• 54:47
  And so we, we are passing down this knowledge and that includes
• 54:50
  these rituals and that includes these things.
• 54:54
  And so I still would have said I was a Christian and I was just
• 54:57
  pushing down these thoughts, which they kind of trained you
• 55:01
  to do, thinking that no, I am worshipping the God of the
• 55:05
  Bible. I'm just learning how he's
• 55:09
  really supposed to be worshipped.
• 55:11
  What was it like to actually practice?
• 55:15
  I think the term you've used is ritual magic.
• 55:19
  What did that look like? And it did that start when you
• 55:21
  joined this? Yes, yes, ritual magic.
• 55:27
  On your podcast, so you have a podcast which I'll we'll learn
• 55:30
  more about at the end of the interview, but you, I think it
• 55:33
  describes you as an occultist practicing ritual magic.
• 55:36
  Yes, that's what I was. Praise the Lord that that's not
• 55:41
  what I am. Praise the Lord, I'm so glad
• 55:44
  you're here. Yeah, so it, it kind of goes
• 55:49
  back and forth between it's called ritual magic, it's called
• 55:51
  ceremonial magic. And a lot of it's influenced by
• 55:54
  Crowley, a lot of it's influenced by these traditions
• 55:58
  passed down. But we met in a Freemason lodge
• 56:01
  and did. They give like a a special
• 56:04
  permission slip for that. I have no idea.
• 56:06
  I don't know how we ended up there.
• 56:07
  I was just. Because Freemasonry, I'm
• 56:09
  learning, I've been learning more about it recently and it's
• 56:10
  very, very dark. Yes, it's very at its heart, but
• 56:14
  a lot of people still think it's OK or they don't really
• 56:16
  understand the implications of the history.
• 56:19
  But it's very much, you know, secularism.
• 56:22
  Yeah, yeah. So I, I just, I felt that I was
• 56:26
  called to this order. I reached out to them and a man
• 56:29
  told me to meet him at a coffee shop.
• 56:30
  Everything that he was talking about that they practice was
• 56:33
  exactly what these entities had been leading me to get into,
• 56:35
  like alchemy, tarot, Egyptian mythology, the Book of Thoth,
• 56:42
  which all probably just sound like words, but it's just dark
• 56:46
  demonic stuff. So I was like, wow, finally I
• 56:48
  can talk to someone. This person is like, whatever
• 56:52
  weird place I'm at, that's where he is.
• 56:54
  This is it. And so even though I was afraid,
• 56:58
  I thought this was the next step, he told me, OK, this
• 57:01
  Sunday, let's meet at this Freemason lodge for your
• 57:04
  initiation, you know, told me to buy Red Sox for the.
• 57:09
  Ritual. Red Sox Red Sox went to a.
• 57:11
  Magic ritual initiation. My husband always thinks it's.
• 57:15
  And this is in Hollywood still. This.
• 57:18
  I lived in Hollywood. The Masonic Lodge was in LA.
• 57:23
  But yeah, I went to a sporting goods store to buy my red socks
• 57:25
  and the initiation was a black robe.
• 57:29
  I was hoodwinked. And the rituals?
• 57:32
  What? Does that mean you're covered
• 57:33
  fully? Yeah, like, yeah, like a.
• 57:37
  You can't. Right, like something over my
• 57:39
  head. And yeah, it's, it's very dark.
• 57:45
  It's always hard for me to talk about because there there's so
• 57:48
  much spiritual fear put on me. A sword was held to my neck that
• 57:53
  I had to swear an oath that I could never talk about it or I
• 57:56
  was giving spiritual powers. A real sword.
• 58:00
  A real sword, yeah. And so, But anyway, the it's
• 58:04
  important to talk about though, and expose the unfruitful works
• 58:06
  of darkness. And what brings me great courage
• 58:08
  is I love Colossians one, I love Ephesians one that talk about
• 58:11
  Christ being far above all rule and authority and power and
• 58:14
  dominion and every name that is named so.
• 58:17
  Thank you for your courage and of course God is God is with
• 58:21
  you. Amen.
• 58:22
  Yeah, so they take, they take a lot from the Bible and tried to
• 58:28
  make the Masonic Lodge like the Tabernacle or the temple.
• 58:33
  There's a lot of going around in circles.
• 58:35
  There's sensors with incense and, and they take some parts
• 58:41
  from Catholic mass of repeating things in Latin and, and it's
• 58:46
  very ritualistic, but you're, there's a lot of symbolism like
• 58:50
  the checkered floor representing duality, the black robe
• 58:53
  representing the ignorance as that you have before you go into
• 58:58
  the secret knowledge, which they would call light 2 pillars.
• 59:03
  It's all very symbolic and the things that you're doing in at
• 59:07
  least those initiation or great advancement rituals are a lot of
• 59:12
  words, a lot of it's kind of like theater, honestly, and you
• 59:17
  know, incense. But it it, it sees that there is
• 59:23
  power in the one true God and tries to RIP from the Bible and
• 59:27
  pervert it and suck power out of it.
• 59:29
  And yet I was so deceived thinking, Oh, I didn't know the
• 59:32
  Bible. So I'm thinking, oh, this is
• 59:33
  biblical. Great.
• 59:34
  I'm learning the names of God. You know, I'm learning about
• 59:38
  what the temple was like. They had all these different
• 59:41
  aspects of it. Like this church looks a little
• 59:42
  weird, like the checkers and the columns, but we're going to make
• 59:45
  it work. Right.
• 59:46
  And this, I might get back for this, but I had been in a
• 59:50
  sorority and I'd been through, you know, a weird initiation.
• 59:54
  So when? It's funny, as you were
• 59:56
  describing it, I was thinking about I was in a sorority for
• 59:58
  like less than six months and then I deactivated freshman
• 1:00:01
  year. But I was remembering the
• 1:00:03
  rituals that they had and there was a Bible verse.
• 1:00:05
  Yep, But it was kind of some it was, you know, not I don't I
• 1:00:08
  wouldn't go as far as calling it demonic, but it was it was
• 1:00:10
  silly, right? I think it was silly.
• 1:00:11
  And there's secret. Oh, like you're you're sort of
• 1:00:14
  secrecy. Yeah.
• 1:00:15
  So when my mentor said like, oh, are you scared?
• 1:00:19
  I was, well, one, I had been working up to this really my
• 1:00:21
  whole life and belief system, but it's all I was also like,
• 1:00:24
  no, I was in a sorority, you know, I'm used to this kind of,
• 1:00:27
  you know. Yeah.
• 1:00:29
  Yes, so and then when we would go for I can't remember the name
• 1:00:35
  of it now, but we would go for at one time we went for 8 hours
• 1:00:38
  I believe, or maybe even more in one day met at the Masonic Lodge
• 1:00:42
  for a day of basically learning and practicing the ceremonial
• 1:00:46
  magic, which included the invocation of deities like 1
• 1:00:51
  invocation of the goddess Isis, which is a demon, which involved
• 1:00:58
  just dressing like these. It's it's very Pagan.
• 1:01:03
  What you would imagine Pagan things happened behind closed
• 1:01:05
  doors, dressing up veils, receiving prophecy.
• 1:01:11
  It was told to me, you know the world hasn't hardened you and
• 1:01:16
  and you know the whatever sees that you've kept soft or
• 1:01:20
  something that so was it. Done like, like learning the
• 1:01:22
  magic there were these rituals. Was it part of it?
• 1:01:24
  Like, like you mentioned, your heart is soft.
• 1:01:26
  Like, no matter the difficult things in the world and what's
• 1:01:28
  happened to you, like, if you're good.
• 1:01:30
  Yeah. Like, is that kind of the heart
• 1:01:32
  of it? And like, there's some beauty
• 1:01:33
  and fun and mysticism here. Was that kind of the, the, the,
• 1:01:37
  the charm of it? Like we're doing this together.
• 1:01:40
  Yeah, kind of. I would say that that was one of
• 1:01:43
  the moments where I was. So before we did that, we had to
• 1:01:45
  bow down on our knees and our face to a golden idol of ISIS.
• 1:01:50
  And I was. Literally saying in the Masonic
• 1:01:52
  Temple. In the Masonic Temple and what?
• 1:01:54
  How big was this golden idol? Oh, this big.
• 1:01:58
  Not that not that impressive, but I was.
• 1:02:01
  And how many people were bowing, bowing down with you?
• 1:02:04
  I don't remember, maybe 10/8. Not a, not a huge.
• 1:02:08
  Amount and this was just to initiate you or were there
• 1:02:10
  others being initiated at the same time?
• 1:02:12
  So this was a different event. This was like spending time
• 1:02:16
  doing these kind of things. When I was initiated, it was
• 1:02:18
  just for me. So I then it plays into feeling
• 1:02:21
  special, like all these people are here, you know, pride,
• 1:02:24
  pride, pride, pride. But while I'm bowing down, I'm
• 1:02:28
  literally thinking to myself, God knows my heart.
• 1:02:30
  Like I know this, this seems wrong, but but God knows my
• 1:02:34
  heart, this is probably right. I mean, who am I to say, you
• 1:02:37
  know, the secret traditions passed down.
• 1:02:38
  This must be right, just justifying things while my
• 1:02:41
  conscience is screaming. And then the more you know
• 1:02:45
  sigil, learning how to draw sigils, a lot of it was called
• 1:02:48
  gematria, which is reading the Bible and allegory and code.
• 1:02:53
  So every I had to learn the Hebrew alphabet.
• 1:02:55
  I had to learn all the elements and symbols associated with each
• 1:03:01
  Hebrew letter. Like everything you're using the
• 1:03:03
  Bible. But now it's this weird code.
• 1:03:05
  Like we know the real meaning of the Bible.
• 1:03:08
  It it just is. So it just evolves into
• 1:03:11
  vapidness. But you think you're sending, I
• 1:03:13
  think of even in Romans one talking about claiming to be
• 1:03:17
  wise. They became fools, like just the
• 1:03:19
  foolishness of it all, but thinking that I'm gaining this
• 1:03:22
  knowledge. And so that went on for a while.
• 1:03:25
  More rituals, more, you know, an advancement in grade.
• 1:03:28
  And I was told you're so good at this.
• 1:03:31
  I've never seen someone move up this quickly.
• 1:03:33
  You're getting it so quickly, like feeding into my pride.
• 1:03:35
  How would you know you were getting it?
• 1:03:37
  Like did you take a multiple choice test afterwards, like bow
• 1:03:41
  to ISIS like or whatever, you know, check like yes, wore the
• 1:03:45
  rope child. Like how did they?
• 1:03:47
  How did you know you were moving along so quickly?
• 1:03:49
  That's such a good question. Yeah.
• 1:03:52
  So they they would observe you and see how you're practicing in
• 1:03:56
  the rituals and you have to do, I mean, well, first I'll answer
• 1:03:59
  your question yes, to move up and agreed.
• 1:04:01
  There was a test, like a test where it isn't some of it's
• 1:04:04
  multiple choice, some of it's connect the, the things.
• 1:04:08
  So yes, literally a test of knowing the knowing the the
• 1:04:13
  facts and then also videoing yourself doing so something we'd
• 1:04:16
  have to do and I do every morning are these rituals
• 1:04:19
  because the idea is that you you need to meet God in the middle.
• 1:04:25
  So you go here and God will meet you somewhere here.
• 1:04:30
  And then that's, that's what you have to do.
• 1:04:33
  And so every morning I'd be doing these meditate, do a
• 1:04:37
  certain meditation and prepare myself.
• 1:04:38
  And then these different rituals called the LBRP, which is the
• 1:04:41
  lesser vanishing ritual of the pentagram.
• 1:04:43
  And I'm always so careful because I know there's such an
• 1:04:46
  intrigue with this stuff and it's not, there's nothing it
• 1:04:50
  there's, it's just trash. Like it truly is a vapid demonic
• 1:04:54
  delusion that hurts. People, I recommend the New York
• 1:04:56
  Times world and crossword puzzle.
• 1:04:58
  Like if you want to like draw some stuff like get a good
• 1:05:02
  sketchbook. I don't know like so so.
• 1:05:04
  True, but the reason why I share this one specifically is this is
• 1:05:08
  the one that I get the most people in the occult reaching
• 1:05:10
  out to me like help and confused.
• 1:05:13
  I practice the LBRP every day. It's just very, it's kind of
• 1:05:17
  like a, a basic daily thing in, in hermeticism and occultism
• 1:05:21
  and, and you're saying the names of God.
• 1:05:25
  Part of it is you say the Lord's prayer, but you're not even
• 1:05:28
  speaking English. I'm not even really sure what
• 1:05:30
  language it is, but you're drawing a cross on your body
• 1:05:34
  while saying that. And then when you do, you draw
• 1:05:37
  pentagrams and you say different names of God.
• 1:05:40
  I'm again thinking, wow, like I'm learning about God that
• 1:05:44
  they're worshipping the I mean, they're using his name, this
• 1:05:49
  heterogrammaton Yodehaveov. Hey, and they're talking about
• 1:05:52
  Jesus. So but it's so important.
• 1:05:54
  And I just want to put this in there to understand.
• 1:05:56
  Just because someone says they worship Jesus or just because
• 1:05:59
  someone slaps on the name of the God of the Bible does not mean
• 1:06:04
  that who they are truly worshipping is the biblical God.
• 1:06:08
  And that's why I'm so thankful that we have scripture.
• 1:06:10
  I love. I believe it's second Timothy
• 1:06:12
  316 that all scripture is inspired by God and profitable
• 1:06:15
  for teaching, for proof, for correction and for for training
• 1:06:18
  and for correction for training and righteousness.
• 1:06:20
  Just I'm so thankful that we have the Bible.
• 1:06:23
  Otherwise, I mean, I was told that these were the secret
• 1:06:26
  traditions that were being taught.
• 1:06:28
  Like, you know, they've been taught for a long time.
• 1:06:30
  They must be right. All these things.
• 1:06:32
  So I'm so, so thankful for that. But when someone says they
• 1:06:35
  worship the true God or they or they use the right names, like
• 1:06:37
  to ask, OK, what do you mean by that?
• 1:06:40
  Ask for definition. Ask for how.
• 1:06:42
  OK, how do you, how do you worship God?
• 1:06:43
  Because God's very specific on how he commands to be
• 1:06:47
  worshipped. And anyway, so that's so
• 1:06:49
  important. But this whole time I'm pushing
• 1:06:52
  down my conscience, rebelling against God, thinking that I'm
• 1:06:56
  worshipping the true God because his name is being blasphemy.
• 1:06:59
  I mean, it's truly taking the Lord's name in vain.
• 1:07:03
  And and then I had a supernatural experience where I
• 1:07:06
  believed I had a vision of Christ during the blasphemous
• 1:07:10
  Eucharist. What?
• 1:07:12
  Was that like? Unbiblical and I I saw a light
• 1:07:19
  in me that all there were all these dark like oaks or
• 1:07:24
  something being thrown on me through my life, but inside was
• 1:07:27
  Christ like I am Christ. You know in that sense we're all
• 1:07:31
  Christ just lies. But because it was a
• 1:07:34
  supernatural. Spirit.
• 1:07:35
  Exactly, exactly. But because it happened in that
• 1:07:39
  situation, I thought, you know, oh, I even though I'm feeling
• 1:07:43
  convicted, I, I need to stay in this order.
• 1:07:45
  I need to just push it down and stay in the order because I'm
• 1:07:48
  having these, you know, these visions of Christ.
• 1:07:51
  What was the moment that? How?
• 1:07:54
  How long did this go on for? It's hard to say.
• 1:07:58
  I would say about two years I'm. Not just saying joining this
• 1:08:02
  particular, what did you call it?
• 1:08:05
  Not a cult, but a. Nicole, Order, Hermetic.
• 1:08:08
  Order a hermetic order. So you were in this for a couple
• 1:08:10
  years and did it. Was there any point where you
• 1:08:14
  thought that's really weird or this is like crosses a line for
• 1:08:17
  me? It's so interesting how many
• 1:08:23
  justifications you can try to make for sin, like if you love
• 1:08:26
  your sin, which I love. I found my entire identity in
• 1:08:29
  being an occultist. I didn't know who I was apart
• 1:08:33
  from the occult. I had such pride and, you know,
• 1:08:36
  thinking who else has done been in a Freemason large practicing
• 1:08:40
  ritual magic. Like I can't tell anyone about
• 1:08:42
  this. There's this isolation, this
• 1:08:44
  pride. You're not allowed to is a top
• 1:08:46
  secret. Yes, you can.
• 1:08:48
  You can share very little, like maybe that you're in an equal
• 1:08:51
  order, but in general it's like, you know, you, you swore with a
• 1:08:54
  sword, so you're you're afraid to say anything.
• 1:08:57
  Was there any? Threat if you tell someone what
• 1:08:59
  would happen to you. It was well, spiritually there
• 1:09:05
  was a serious weight. So when you asked if it was all
• 1:09:08
  light and fun that that wasn't alluring part.
• 1:09:10
  But in general there was like this seriously oppressive,
• 1:09:13
  demonic heavyweight over everything we did that I just
• 1:09:16
  thought was this power that I wanted to tap into.
• 1:09:20
  But it it was there was such a fear, like a spiritual fear
• 1:09:25
  about sharing any any of it that I really didn't need anyone in
• 1:09:29
  the order. So remind me, I was terrified to
• 1:09:32
  talk about it. What?
• 1:09:34
  How did you get out? So it's truly just the grace of
• 1:09:40
  God. I was so, so, so just deep in
• 1:09:45
  it. It was my entire life.
• 1:09:47
  I wasn't working at the time. So every day, all day, like I
• 1:09:50
  was just practicing this stuff. I was reading about this stuff.
• 1:09:52
  I was doing rituals. How did you afford that?
• 1:09:55
  My family was supporting me, yeah, which was so sweet of
• 1:09:58
  them, but so not good did. They know that you were doing
• 1:10:02
  these these. Rituals some of them did and,
• 1:10:08
  and they, honestly, they just, it just, you know, they didn't.
• 1:10:12
  And there's only so much I'm sharing and, and there were dues
• 1:10:15
  I had to pay. So I had some families
• 1:10:17
  supporting me with that, which just breaks my heart thinking
• 1:10:19
  like, that's so bad. But truly God's grace because I
• 1:10:24
  was, as I'm practicing these things and I'm, I'm reading the
• 1:10:27
  Bible, like because Bible verses were said in Latin and in some
• 1:10:31
  of the rituals I'm, I'm thinking, OK, there's clearly
• 1:10:34
  something to this Bible because they're using a lot.
• 1:10:38
  So I started to read it for myself and I read that Satan
• 1:10:44
  masquerades as an Angel of light.
• 1:10:45
  And I, I've never heard that. I didn't know that.
• 1:10:48
  And I just, the whole time I've been thinking, what if Satan is
• 1:10:52
  behind what I'm doing? And I was pretty sure of it, but
• 1:10:55
  I'd gotten to the point where I started thinking, which is
• 1:10:58
  again, when you follow these belief systems down, the
• 1:11:02
  teaching is that Yahweh or the God of the Bible is the bad guy
• 1:11:08
  and that Lucifer was the good guy giving free will, giving
• 1:11:12
  knowledge and that, and that's, that's at the end of of it.
• 1:11:16
  And I had started, I didn't fully believe that because I
• 1:11:20
  didn't get how that fit in with what we were doing.
• 1:11:22
  But it was it was this whisper in my mind.
• 1:11:26
  But when I read that I believe it's Second Corinthians 11/14,
• 1:11:29
  it pierced me and I just was like, yes, like Satan is behind
• 1:11:34
  what I'm doing. But I was still so immersed in
• 1:11:37
  this and so loved my sin. Like I really enjoyed my
• 1:11:42
  practice. I would have said that I didn't
• 1:11:44
  turn. Can I just ask you, when you say
• 1:11:46
  you loved your sin, you really enjoyed your practice, is that
• 1:11:49
  because it just, it was an identity that was interesting,
• 1:11:53
  where you got to do stuff? You mentioned the sense of pride
• 1:11:55
  and power. Yeah.
• 1:11:58
  And do you think that's what it is for most people today?
• 1:12:00
  That's a really, really good question.
• 1:12:02
  I think it definitely is. Like there's, it's good to, it
• 1:12:06
  feels good to think that you have identity.
• 1:12:08
  It feels good to think that you are God like that you actually
• 1:12:12
  are in control of your life. Putting you in the driver's
• 1:12:14
  seat, putting you in control, even though it's a vain
• 1:12:17
  delusion. You don't want to.
• 1:12:19
  I didn't want to give that up. And also I enjoyed, for example,
• 1:12:23
  tarot card reading divination. I thought it was, to your point,
• 1:12:26
  glitter and fun. Those parts of it where it, it
• 1:12:30
  felt beautiful to me and I was deceived enough to think it was
• 1:12:33
  beautiful. And again, it it put me in the
• 1:12:35
  driver's seat and I didn't have to turn from any of my sin.
• 1:12:41
  Living in sexual morality. I had started practicing sexual
• 1:12:44
  magic on my own in my own practice.
• 1:12:46
  Praise the Lord honestly, I see God even using working all
• 1:12:50
  things together for good in my life.
• 1:12:52
  But even seeing how the abuse had me like not very open in
• 1:12:58
  that way. And so praise the Lord, I didn't
• 1:13:00
  get into the tantric, those kind of things with other people that
• 1:13:04
  was around me, but in my own practice, getting into these
• 1:13:07
  twit like I was absolutely wicked and I, I thought that it
• 1:13:12
  was good. And so I didn't have to turn
• 1:13:14
  from that or submit to God in these practices.
• 1:13:18
  I could have God and my way. I could have God and my sin.
• 1:13:23
  Like there's no need to submit to Jesus Christ as savior.
• 1:13:25
  You could just have them as a type to become or something to
• 1:13:28
  ascend to. Like there was such an
• 1:13:30
  attraction and and thinking that you are in control and not
• 1:13:34
  submitting to God. So that was a huge part of
• 1:13:37
  staying. I also read in I believe I read
• 1:13:39
  in Matthew 7. It could have been a parallel
• 1:13:42
  one, but that you can tell a tree by its fruit.
• 1:13:45
  I didn't even really know what that meant.
• 1:13:47
  But as I'm going to the Masonic Lodge and seeing the highest up
• 1:13:51
  in the orders, the ones giving the presentations and teaching
• 1:13:54
  their fruit was just as bad as mine.
• 1:13:56
  I could tell they were just as depraved, lost.
• 1:14:00
  There's something behind their eyes that I recognize behind
• 1:14:04
  mine, which was dark and that, you know, bothered me.
• 1:14:08
  And so I'm going to the lodge and, and thinking about these
• 1:14:12
  things. And then around this time, my
• 1:14:14
  grandpa, who I didn't really have a relationship with, he
• 1:14:18
  visited me and he sat me down and said, how's your
• 1:14:24
  relationship with God? And I just was so prideful at
• 1:14:28
  this time. I was reading Hindu texts and,
• 1:14:33
  you know, ancient Egyptian and some Islamic and just thinking,
• 1:14:36
  you know, I am so like, I just so smart and wise.
• 1:14:40
  And I said that, oh, I've never been as close to God.
• 1:14:42
  I'm reading this and this and this.
• 1:14:43
  And he just looked at me and said Jesus is the way, the truth
• 1:14:47
  and the life and no one comes to the Father except through him.
• 1:14:51
  Wow, yeah and I don't know if he said and it like if you die in
• 1:14:56
  your sin, you you know, you will go to hell or if it was just
• 1:14:59
  implied, but I was shaking. I was so mad.
• 1:15:02
  I couldn't believe you and have. You told you the gospel, he
• 1:15:05
  preached. Yes.
• 1:15:07
  Is he a practicing Christian? Was that?
• 1:15:09
  I. Was it like a a special grace
• 1:15:12
  God gave him to give you that word?
• 1:15:14
  I I didn't know I didn't really know him, but yes, he was a
• 1:15:18
  Christian and I just thought he was so judge mental.
• 1:15:22
  I was like, I like, I will never talk to this man again.
• 1:15:25
  Who does he think he is shaking, angry.
• 1:15:28
  And but it didn't matter what I thought because that truth
• 1:15:33
  continued to Pierce me as I continued in my practice.
• 1:15:36
  And my grandpa recently passed away and I just think about when
• 1:15:38
  he gets to heaven and and had the rewards of his faithfulness
• 1:15:43
  because he didn't he didn't even know for so long, but he was
• 1:15:46
  faithful to share even though I how you treated him terribly in
• 1:15:50
  anger. And so just I encourage anyone
• 1:15:52
  just faithfully share the truth of the gospel.
• 1:15:55
  You don't know how it'll impact someone.
• 1:15:56
  God really used that to bring you to Him.
• 1:15:58
  I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you, Heaven's gain.
• 1:16:01
  Right. Yes, Amen.
• 1:16:02
  What did you tell him? I don't want you to say that to
• 1:16:04
  me. I don't really just it was just
• 1:16:06
  an off thing. Where you kind?
• 1:16:07
  Of yeah, I I sure was clear that I was unhappy and I didn't talk
• 1:16:11
  to him again, did he? Bring it up again.
• 1:16:13
  I didn't. I don't even think I saw him
• 1:16:15
  again. Yeah.
• 1:16:16
  And then I read, or actually I didn't read it, but I was in my
• 1:16:20
  studio apartment and I remembered the lie in Genesis
• 1:16:22
  three, that the lie from the enemy, the serpent, that if you
• 1:16:28
  eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
• 1:16:31
  you'll be like God knowing good and evil.
• 1:16:34
  And that really is the lie in the occult, that there's duality
• 1:16:38
  and that you need to integrate it really to, to ascend to, to
• 1:16:42
  liberate. That's, that's like the a huge
• 1:16:45
  part of it. And so dark and light is, is
• 1:16:48
  just different sides of the same coin.
• 1:16:49
  And I hate to say it, but androgyny is even talked about
• 1:16:53
  in in Tantra and, and you know, join, joining these masculine,
• 1:17:00
  feminine, joining the dark light, joining the it's, it's
• 1:17:03
  all about integration. And so that just stood out to me
• 1:17:06
  to where I was. I had no doubt in my mind that I
• 1:17:09
  didn't even fall for a new fangled lie.
• 1:17:13
  This is the same lie. It led to the fall and it's it's
• 1:17:17
  leading to the fall in my life like I I am headed for eternal
• 1:17:21
  destruction and I was I was astounded, and yet I still still
• 1:17:26
  was too prideful to turn and can just continued continued in in
• 1:17:32
  my sin. And at this point, it was your
• 1:17:33
  whole life, it sounds like pretty much daily practice.
• 1:17:36
  Were you weekly going to the Masonic Lodge or how often?
• 1:17:38
  Would you go? My practice was every day.
• 1:17:40
  Even I remember Christmas, you know, Easter, getting up in the
• 1:17:43
  morning for hours to do these things.
• 1:17:46
  And I don't remember how often we went to the lodge because
• 1:17:48
  towards the end I stopped going as often, but it was maybe once
• 1:17:51
  a month. Were you teaching other people
• 1:17:53
  too? Was that part?
• 1:17:54
  Of not no, OK, but I would go to even different like outings.
• 1:17:58
  We went to the Getty Museum, which has been in the news
• 1:18:00
  lately a lot now. I just think that's interesting.
• 1:18:03
  They had an alchemy exhibit that was very on point with the deep
• 1:18:06
  dark occult stuff we were learning, which is strange and
• 1:18:10
  you know, to people's houses for terror night, stuff like that.
• 1:18:12
  So it was a huge part. I mean, they were my circle.
• 1:18:16
  Like they were the only people I could really talk to.
• 1:18:18
  And and so I didn't turn. And then one night I was walking
• 1:18:22
  across my studio apartment. It was just like any other
• 1:18:24
  night. I had my throat tarot deck
• 1:18:27
  spread out and everything. And I was spiritually attacked
• 1:18:30
  and I fell to my knees and it felt like my soul was just being
• 1:18:34
  sucked out of me into utter darkness.
• 1:18:36
  And I heard myself cry out. Jesus Christ save me.
• 1:18:41
  And in that moment it, I knew it was God, the God of the Bible,
• 1:18:46
  the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who delivered me just
• 1:18:49
  like that from the attack. But I also felt the peace that
• 1:18:53
  I'd been searching for my whole life.
• 1:18:56
  And I was aware that what I was doing was sin because I had like
• 1:19:01
  a Bible in my bathroom. And when I'd flip it open, it
• 1:19:04
  would almost always be to something about sorcery being an
• 1:19:07
  abomination. And I'd be like, no, that can't
• 1:19:09
  be right. But in that moment, this small,
• 1:19:14
  this small, only seeing the small glimpse of God, you know,
• 1:19:18
  not visually, but this small, just such a small fraction of
• 1:19:21
  who he is was so astounding to me that I was terrified of my
• 1:19:27
  like realizing my sin and and knew he is right like I am
• 1:19:31
  wrong. These traditions passed down to
• 1:19:33
  me are not right like God and his word are right.
• 1:19:37
  I like he this God is right and not me.
• 1:19:40
  And so I was terrified. I got out my Bible from under
• 1:19:42
  the bed that I'd been keeping there as just because of scary
• 1:19:46
  things that have been happening and I started reading it for
• 1:19:48
  myself from Genesis on. And again, I had a lot of time
• 1:19:53
  because I wasn't working other than occasionally DoorDash, and
• 1:19:57
  I still thought I had this higher knowledge.
• 1:19:59
  So I'm reading the Bible, shaking again, thinking, OK, I,
• 1:20:04
  you know, I have this higher knowledge, but I'm going to read
• 1:20:06
  it. But it really didn't matter what
• 1:20:07
  I thought because God's word is living inactive and judges the
• 1:20:10
  thoughts and intentions of the heart.
• 1:20:12
  And it was just piercing me with truth, conviction of sin,
• 1:20:15
  reality of who God truly is, this holy God that I have sinned
• 1:20:20
  against like I have been living an act of rebellion.
• 1:20:22
  And yet he sent his Son to die. On my behalf, like it's
• 1:20:29
  unfathomable, like his bloodshed covers my sin and all these
• 1:20:34
  weird rituals we are doing like powerless.
• 1:20:37
  Nothing compared to the power of who God truly is and the mercy
• 1:20:40
  and the grace shown through Jesus Christ.
• 1:20:43
  Reading this just astounded. But well, I will say, by the
• 1:20:50
  time I finished reading it, I realized that I could get sober,
• 1:20:54
  which was I, I thought I would die an addict.
• 1:20:57
  I was like a functioning addict but.
• 1:20:59
  So this is alcohol or drugs? Alcohol I was, I smoked weed,
• 1:21:03
  but I, you know, wouldn't do it when during practices I was like
• 1:21:06
  very obedient with the with the order, but I I was totally I
• 1:21:12
  didn't know what it felt like to really live a sober life.
• 1:21:16
  So I just, but I knew that I had God with me, Like I knew that
• 1:21:21
  the one true God is with me and, and I can get sober.
• 1:21:24
  And that was such an astounding thing.
• 1:21:26
  Like God is enough for me. Jesus is enough.
• 1:21:28
  Like I, I have rest from works. I can, I can do this in Christ.
• 1:21:33
  And so I got sober and I would love if it was.
• 1:21:38
  And, you know, that's it. How long did that take, by the
• 1:21:41
  way? Getting sober, That's it.
• 1:21:43
  Oh, I locked myself away in my studio apartment.
• 1:21:48
  And I believe there was, there were a couple times where I
• 1:21:51
  wasn't 100% on board, like I tried to stop drinking, thought
• 1:21:54
  I could just have a little here and there, but I realized like
• 1:21:57
  I, I can't drink. And so it probably took three
• 1:22:02
  weeks and then I just, well, Turkey locked myself away.
• 1:22:07
  And you felt like that was an essential step towards dealing
• 1:22:10
  with this question of God in your life because, and this was
• 1:22:13
  after that demonic attack that you experienced where you felt
• 1:22:15
  like Jesus saved you, and then you started to read the Bible.
• 1:22:18
  Yes, I, I just my whole life I'd since that time at 15 when I
• 1:22:23
  first drank and I, I, I knew I didn't want to feel anyway, but
• 1:22:26
  that way because I could escape myself.
• 1:22:29
  But I knew like I was an addict like my dad, like through and
• 1:22:33
  through. I couldn't live without it.
• 1:22:35
  I wasn't like my friends who did it for fun, like I needed it.
• 1:22:39
  And as I'm reading about idolatry, as I'm reading about
• 1:22:42
  God's kindness, his faithfulness, I hated that I was
• 1:22:45
  an addict. I, I really loathed that.
• 1:22:47
  And so realizing, like in Christ, I have the strength to
• 1:22:52
  turn and. So at what point did you
• 1:22:55
  actually definitively say I'm leaving the magic, I'm leaving
• 1:23:00
  the hermetic order, I'm I'm going to go find Jesus and Jesus
• 1:23:05
  alone? Like what?
• 1:23:06
  At what point did that yeah happen?
• 1:23:09
  You know, I would, I would love to say it was right then, but I
• 1:23:13
  was so deceived and deluded and it was really confusing how they
• 1:23:21
  used the Bible and said, No, no, we, we worship Jesus like we so
• 1:23:25
  and also using the Bible with these different like I was, I
• 1:23:28
  was confused and I continued, I stopped going as much.
• 1:23:34
  So when I said I stopped going as much, that's when and
• 1:23:39
  expressed my, my feelings and and that kind of thing.
• 1:23:43
  But I still thought that I could be right with God and do these
• 1:23:49
  do this. I I just thought that again,
• 1:23:51
  these are the traditions passed down.
• 1:23:52
  These are the works that that like get me up to God.
• 1:23:55
  Like I was making these justifications and was tried to
• 1:24:01
  put them together. But when I was getting my makeup
• 1:24:06
  done, I was talking to the lady doing it, the kind lady.
• 1:24:09
  And actually I was driving listening to the radio and a
• 1:24:12
  pastor, a Calvary Chopper Chapel pastor came on and I didn't know
• 1:24:16
  it was a sermon, but something hit me as truth started
• 1:24:19
  listening to his sermons and he did one on being lukewarm.
• 1:24:23
  And I just, I was just like radically convicted that I have
• 1:24:27
  one foot in in sin and one foot in Christ.
• 1:24:30
  And I genuinely wanted to follow Christ, but I was thinking I
• 1:24:33
  could somehow have this so. This was this was around this
• 1:24:36
  time you heard the sermon from the Calvary Chapel.
• 1:24:39
  Yes, pastor, Yes. About Luke Ormans and so these
• 1:24:41
  things were, it sounds like you're just getting convicted
• 1:24:42
  again and again and again and again, right.
• 1:24:44
  What was the, the final straw that broke the back of like, I'm
• 1:24:48
  actually, and you know, you were sharing with me before the
• 1:24:51
  interview about this moment where you just literally
• 1:24:53
  physically left Los Angeles and drove to Arizona and joined a,
• 1:24:58
  a, a Bible based church out in Arizona.
• 1:25:00
  Was did it? Was it up to that moment that
• 1:25:02
  you were still like feeling held back by this, you know, these
• 1:25:06
  the draw and the allure of this? I mean, it's a community that
• 1:25:09
  you were in. It's a physical community that
• 1:25:10
  you were in with human beings. It's also all of the demonic
• 1:25:13
  stuff. But what was that moment for
• 1:25:15
  you? Yeah, that moment was, I believe
• 1:25:20
  it was directly after the the that sermon and there was an
• 1:25:24
  altar call. And I don't at all.
• 1:25:27
  I don't believe that that is what saved me.
• 1:25:28
  But it was just a moment that I realized that, you know, I, I am
• 1:25:33
  not living right with God. I have to either like I'm
• 1:25:36
  commanded to follow Jesus. And part of that is denying
• 1:25:38
  myself. I don't get to hold on to any
• 1:25:40
  worldly parts of me. I am to deny myself and follow
• 1:25:43
  Jesus. And so I went up to my pastors.
• 1:25:45
  This was about a year, maybe a little less than a year after
• 1:25:49
  that time where I fell on my knees and I just said I am
• 1:25:53
  saved. But I'm like I need to just help
• 1:25:55
  me like. These are Christian pastors.
• 1:25:57
  These are Christian pastors, so you so.
• 1:25:58
  Between the time so you got on your knees, you're in your
• 1:26:01
  apartment, you get sober. Yeah, you're still sort of
• 1:26:04
  struggling with completely extricating yourself, but you
• 1:26:06
  joined a Christian Church in Los Angeles.
• 1:26:08
  Yes, that's. Yeah, well, you were at the
• 1:26:10
  Christian Church. Were you still doing some
• 1:26:13
  Masonic temple stuff or some magic stuff as well and kind of
• 1:26:16
  dabbling in it, thinking, oh, this sounds pretty Christian,
• 1:26:18
  this part of it, so it's going to fit.
• 1:26:20
  Yeah, I'm so thank you so much for bringing me back to that.
• 1:26:22
  Yes, after hearing this one Cover Chapel Pastor on the radio
• 1:26:27
  after a series of events, I ended up finding a church plant
• 1:26:30
  in Hollywood where I'd go off and on, you know, still so much
• 1:26:33
  pride thinking OK, like I believe this, but you know, I
• 1:26:36
  have this higher knowledge. All these things that went on
• 1:26:38
  for months and they were so faithful.
• 1:26:39
  The pastor and his wife sitting down with me.
• 1:26:42
  I would I fought them on hell. This my God wouldn't do that and
• 1:26:45
  they're like, well, let's open the Bible because this is the
• 1:26:48
  inspired word of God. They were so patient with me
• 1:26:51
  sitting under the preaching of God's Word was convicting me.
• 1:26:53
  Then hearing that sermon specifically on lukewarm, so I
• 1:26:56
  was already not fully in. You know that back and forth.
• 1:27:00
  Were you at the same time still going at all to the, you know,
• 1:27:03
  hermetic Order? Were you still involved with
• 1:27:06
  them? I was at the same time, yes.
• 1:27:08
  And were they aware that you were going to this Christian
• 1:27:11
  Church? I don't think so.
• 1:27:14
  They knew that I wanted. Like I said, I was a Christian
• 1:27:16
  the whole time. But like, good, we got her.
• 1:27:19
  I mean, that kind of did that turn them off or they were kind
• 1:27:23
  of excited like, oh, we've got a Christian here.
• 1:27:25
  Yeah, it's hard to know because so many of the people there,
• 1:27:28
  like, thought they were Christians too.
• 1:27:30
  Wow. Because they think they're
• 1:27:32
  worshipping Jesus. But again, it's a Jesus.
• 1:27:34
  I mean literally in the literature it says there can be
• 1:27:38
  no vicarious atonement. Atonement.
• 1:27:41
  Jesus is a type for you to become like so.
• 1:27:43
  So, so many people who are literally members of this human.
• 1:27:47
  Am I saying really hermetic? Hermetic order that's practicing
• 1:27:50
  ritual magic and doing a cultish occult activities.
• 1:27:55
  They, many of the people, including yourself, were
• 1:27:57
  thinking we are Christians. Right, yes, but again, having no
• 1:28:01
  no truly biblical basis. Yeah.
• 1:28:03
  So I'm so thankful for the faithful pastors at that church.
• 1:28:06
  And then from that moment really that I got baptized.
• 1:28:09
  I just see running after the Lord.
• 1:28:11
  I reached out to the order and I said I'm I'm leaving.
• 1:28:14
  They say you cannot leave because really more so in a
• 1:28:18
  spiritual way like you because you you were tied to them an
• 1:28:22
  oath and all that stuff. But I said, OK, like, well, I'm
• 1:28:25
  not coming back. So and so they call it stepping
• 1:28:28
  away. Did the sword come out again?
• 1:28:31
  I mean. Is that it?
• 1:28:33
  No. Was there any threat or anything
• 1:28:35
  or was more just a? Yeah, that's again really a good
• 1:28:40
  question. It's something that I, I hear
• 1:28:42
  from a lot of people who come out of the occult is at first
• 1:28:45
  there seems to be like this understanding and this poll,
• 1:28:47
  like I was told, you know, you were called to the great work.
• 1:28:50
  It's called the great work ties in alchemy and that kind of
• 1:28:52
  stuff. But kind of like, oh, you were
• 1:28:54
  called to this. There's just calling on your
• 1:28:56
  life. But I understand if you need to
• 1:28:57
  step away for a time. And it's like, well, we get it,
• 1:29:00
  but. Like so have you kind of like
• 1:29:02
  you'll be back kind of thing, right?
• 1:29:04
  And I hear that a lot people coming out of the occult, like
• 1:29:06
  their old mentors are really nice at first.
• 1:29:09
  But then as the people grow and then start, you know, saying,
• 1:29:12
  hey, you teach this, The Bible says this.
• 1:29:14
  That's where it's like, OK, that's enough.
• 1:29:16
  At what point did you last connect with them or we were in
• 1:29:20
  touch with them? That would have been 2017.
• 1:29:24
  It's been years. And was that after you had moved
• 1:29:27
  to Arizona? I moved to Arizona in 2010, but
• 1:29:30
  I'm actually I believe it it might have been in 2020-2021.
• 1:29:35
  Someone reached out to me again, someone that I genuinely think
• 1:29:39
  means well but is deeply deceived.
• 1:29:41
  The person who was I called my my fairy godmother and just was
• 1:29:46
  a mentor to me really hurt that I was speaking out about about
• 1:29:52
  occultism and about the order. And so I got that opportunity to
• 1:29:56
  share like, OK, this is specifically what we practiced
• 1:29:58
  and this is what the Bible says. And, and because of that,
• 1:30:01
  because God's word is true and not, you know, man's opinion
• 1:30:04
  about what you should be doing, not even though they say this is
• 1:30:07
  an old tradition, like what does the Bible say it that didn't,
• 1:30:13
  was not met with. Well, but I'm, I praise God that
• 1:30:15
  I got the opportunity to at least share, you know, the
• 1:30:18
  gospel and what the Bible says about these things and.
• 1:30:20
  So when you ended up actually leaving Los Angeles and starting
• 1:30:25
  really developing your Christian faith, and I understand now,
• 1:30:28
  you're at a beautiful church, you got married recently, it
• 1:30:32
  sounds like there were varying degrees of removing yourself
• 1:30:35
  from that world, yes, And then deepening your own faith, your
• 1:30:38
  Christian faith, and being formed in what Christianity is,
• 1:30:41
  right? And I think there's so many
• 1:30:43
  people today, you mentioned lukewarmness, that they think
• 1:30:46
  they can kind of be in both places where they kind of
• 1:30:48
  generally identify as Christian. Maybe they even go to church on
• 1:30:51
  Sundays. But they are also caught up in
• 1:30:55
  these, you know, spiritual elements that are not of God,
• 1:30:58
  that are, that are called the demonic.
• 1:31:00
  But those lines are so blurred, even culturally.
• 1:31:03
  Do you think that, you know, have you heard from other people
• 1:31:08
  who were in your shoes before? Since you've come out and
• 1:31:11
  speaking, you have a podcast now you're writing a book.
• 1:31:13
  Have you heard from other people who are who have said you know
• 1:31:16
  I'm in, I was in a similar boat as you or I'm confused?
• 1:31:19
  Yeah, yeah. Praise the Lord, Yes, praise the
• 1:31:22
  Lord that there's people, even a dear sister at my church who
• 1:31:24
  came out of similar stuff that it I mean, and you and you hear
• 1:31:27
  the stories and you just see God's grace, God's kindness,
• 1:31:31
  God's mercy to meet them because by human understanding, there's
• 1:31:34
  no reason why they should have woken up to it like they were
• 1:31:39
  deep in it. But but for everyone, it's
• 1:31:42
  either reading the word of God, hearing the gospel preached some
• 1:31:46
  in some way, they they hear the truth and God uses that.
• 1:31:49
  I mean, I think of Romans 116. The gospel is the power of God
• 1:31:53
  for salvation to everyone who believes that's true.
• 1:31:56
  And it can be scary when you see people in the occult deep in the
• 1:31:59
  stuff you think, OK, they're way too far gone or they're, I mean,
• 1:32:02
  they're demonic. You don't.
• 1:32:03
  But God's word has power. The gospel is the power of God
• 1:32:06
  to salvation. And so I hear these people who
• 1:32:09
  heard the gospel are they read and God broke like broken their
• 1:32:14
  heart and and and either made them think started started that
• 1:32:18
  questioning or truly regenerated them in that moment.
• 1:32:21
  I mean, what's? Been the most surprising message
• 1:32:23
  you've received from someone who was in the occult.
• 1:32:25
  Yeah, it always amazes me when because I get a lot of pushback.
• 1:32:29
  I would say it's because people who are in that specific
• 1:32:33
  hermetic ceremonial magic, they don't like like they don't like
• 1:32:38
  light shine on the darkness. I mean, these are supposed to be
• 1:32:40
  secrets. So it's awful if you share them.
• 1:32:43
  So I, I mean, I usually get pushed back, but when someone
• 1:32:46
  comments saying this, what she's saying isn't like some delusion.
• 1:32:50
  This is real and God saved me out of this or reach out to me
• 1:32:54
  and say that like that amazes me that God is still saving people
• 1:32:59
  out of not just like out of such specific things that I just have
• 1:33:03
  such a heart for people who are deceived in in that world.
• 1:33:07
  And then people do reach out to me who are like, Hey, can we
• 1:33:11
  please get on a call? I'm desperate.
• 1:33:13
  A lot of them are having like spiritual attacks and are
• 1:33:16
  practicing these same things. And I get to, I don't know if
• 1:33:19
  it's planning a seed or watering a seed, but get on the phone
• 1:33:21
  with them and, and share the gospel and share what the Bible
• 1:33:24
  says compared to what they're doing.
• 1:33:25
  And I praise God for every opportunity to do that because I
• 1:33:28
  know and you can know that everyone practicing those things
• 1:33:33
  is deeply lost. Like there's no true peace or
• 1:33:36
  joy in it. I was reading about Freemasonry
• 1:33:39
  in the United States and they're being I think it's in the
• 1:33:42
  1,000,000, but certainly the hundreds of thousands of
• 1:33:44
  Freemasons like official Freemasons, I'm sure.
• 1:33:48
  And you weren't even that, you know, you went to a free they
• 1:33:50
  hosted you, you know, and, and your group, but there was a, you
• 1:33:54
  know, this, this is a increasingly women and men
• 1:33:57
  seeking, seeking God or seeking divinity, seeking something.
• 1:34:02
  I think it's a huge temptation for people today.
• 1:34:04
  How many people do you think are involved today in the New Age?
• 1:34:09
  Wow. And yeah, I mean, what do you
• 1:34:12
  have a sense of what that is and based on your experience of
• 1:34:15
  being in LA and in it? Yeah, I mean a lot.
• 1:34:19
  I mean it. It's hard to say because so, so
• 1:34:22
  many people are involved in it without even recognizing, I
• 1:34:26
  mean, talking about new moms who want to manifest their, you
• 1:34:30
  know, better life for these things for their kids or, or
• 1:34:33
  people just don't even know. Maybe someone gave them a
• 1:34:35
  crystal to help their, their, their sister has cancer and they
• 1:34:40
  want something that'll heal. So they get into crystals.
• 1:34:42
  And then, oh, that seemed to have worked.
• 1:34:44
  Let me get this crystal like things where people don't even
• 1:34:47
  don't even know that the roots of these things they get into
• 1:34:50
  that. I mean, we see it being promoted
• 1:34:52
  in our culture, promoted in Disney, promoted in kids things,
• 1:34:57
  you know, make your make your dreams come true, then turns
• 1:35:00
  into how can we literally manifest our dreams coming true?
• 1:35:03
  It permeates our culture. So it's hard to say how many
• 1:35:06
  people have really bought into these lies and maybe don't even
• 1:35:08
  realize that they're what they're practicing, what they're
• 1:35:11
  believing, thoughts becoming things.
• 1:35:12
  Think positive. If you're thinking positive
• 1:35:15
  because you believe it's going to attract a positive or
• 1:35:18
  whatever you want into your life, you by definition are then
• 1:35:22
  starting to accumulate new age beliefs.
• 1:35:25
  When you look back on this time in your life and and you
• 1:35:28
  mentioned earlier people calling you and and experiencing said
• 1:35:32
  the word, I think spiritual attack or demonic attack.
• 1:35:35
  Did you see sort of a connection between the increase of like
• 1:35:40
  overt demonic activity? You mentioned you were scared
• 1:35:42
  you had the Bible under your bed.
• 1:35:43
  You felt like some your soul getting sucked out of your body
• 1:35:46
  at one point towards that kind of, you know, the most intense
• 1:35:49
  time when it kind of got really heavy for you.
• 1:35:51
  Did you have a sense that Satan was sort of starting to reveal
• 1:35:54
  his hand later on, once you were really in and locked up?
• 1:35:57
  So to speak. Yes, again a great question.
• 1:36:00
  Yes, I remember I had this like altar to both went by other
• 1:36:05
  names to Hootie to Hootie just the same ancient Egyptian deity
• 1:36:08
  and on a mirror I had its name and suddenly things just I
• 1:36:13
  thought I thought we were friends.
• 1:36:15
  Suddenly things started changing and and I I Remember Me seeing
• 1:36:19
  shadows things coming on the mirror.
• 1:36:21
  I was terrified. I felt like I was never alone,
• 1:36:23
  even though I was always alone in my studio apartment.
• 1:36:25
  And I just remember thinking, I'm too afraid to take the altar
• 1:36:28
  down. Like now that this entity is
• 1:36:30
  starting to show its power and its face and it's dark, like I'm
• 1:36:34
  over, I'm in over my head. And now I don't know how to
• 1:36:37
  backpedal because I've already opened myself up to this.
• 1:36:40
  I've wanted this entity to use my body.
• 1:36:42
  I've been following it around. So yes, as I got deeper into
• 1:36:46
  this and as I'm more and more deceived and wanting these
• 1:36:51
  things to happen, I yeah, it the mask was starting to come off.
• 1:36:57
  And recently there's something called the Church of Satan and
• 1:36:59
  they say that they're an actual religious entity.
• 1:37:02
  They should nonprofit status and and abortion is their sacrament.
• 1:37:05
  So they're arguing for religious liberty reasons.
• 1:37:07
  They should be able to commit abortions as part of their
• 1:37:10
  effectively demonic sacrament. I've heard it said that
• 1:37:14
  witchcraft and other demonic activities happen at abortion
• 1:37:18
  clinics. I've been to abortion clinics to
• 1:37:19
  pray outside. You can kind of sense the
• 1:37:21
  darkness, the spiritual darkness there.
• 1:37:23
  This is where children are being killed.
• 1:37:25
  Did you ever experience anything connected to the practice of the
• 1:37:29
  occult and abortion? Yes, that's a great that's again
• 1:37:33
  great question. What's interesting, just an
• 1:37:36
  aside, the Church of Satan is is usually kind of just a anti
• 1:37:40
  Christianity Anton Lavey like not necessarily worshipping
• 1:37:43
  Satan, but just this weird anti Christianity.
• 1:37:46
  So not surprising that they would, you know, love their sin
• 1:37:49
  and try to do that. And then Luciferianism, which is
• 1:37:52
  more in line with kind of the witchcraft occult does worship
• 1:37:57
  Lucifer. But in the when I was in the
• 1:38:00
  occult, I went to a couple moon witch circles where, you know,
• 1:38:05
  sit around a fire, make offerings to the moon God and
• 1:38:08
  and set intentions and release. And in again, ritual magic,
• 1:38:14
  blood is seen as a powerful tool, specifically menstruation
• 1:38:19
  for release and and letting go. And so I'm not at all surprised
• 1:38:24
  to see more in the witchcraft kind of circles you've seen,
• 1:38:29
  maybe you've seen, I've certainly seen on YouTube people
• 1:38:32
  having abortion rituals, awful, but trying to make it into this
• 1:38:37
  beautiful Worshipful divine act and offering it as this release.
• 1:38:42
  And so I'm not surprised to see that because again, of the
• 1:38:45
  mentality of you are God, So you make your own decisions and
• 1:38:49
  seeing blood as this powerful magical tool for release and
• 1:38:52
  setting intentions bring that together.
• 1:38:55
  You know in their mind that it's not only justified, it makes
• 1:38:59
  sense. So dark, yes.
• 1:39:01
  Did you ever discuss that with anyone, abortion or other blood
• 1:39:04
  rituals with anybody that you were involved with in the occult
• 1:39:08
  in Los Angeles? Yeah, praise the Lord.
• 1:39:11
  No, but Planned Parenthood was a huge part of my life since I was
• 1:39:14
  15. Praise the Lord.
• 1:39:16
  I never had an abortion, but I took Plan B twice and kind of
• 1:39:21
  thought of it as the same thing as this is just, you know, a
• 1:39:23
  release. And, and just the I was around
• 1:39:27
  that a lot where abortion was not seen as a human life.
• 1:39:31
  It was seen just as part of your body that you can you're in
• 1:39:35
  complete control of. How has your life changed since
• 1:39:39
  leaving the occult behind and being saved?
• 1:39:44
  I mean entering deeply into a relationship with Jesus and
• 1:39:47
  learning the truths of the Christian faith.
• 1:39:49
  How has that changed you? Yeah, truly in every way.
• 1:39:52
  Like it's hard to think of a single way that it hasn't.
• 1:39:54
  I think of 2nd Corinthians 517. Therefore, if anyone is in
• 1:39:58
  Christ, he's a new creation. Behold, the oldest passed away.
• 1:40:01
  The newest come like I. I don't reckon.
• 1:40:05
  I mean, sometimes I I struggle not to, to call me her when I
• 1:40:09
  see old pictures just because I don't recognize that part of me.
• 1:40:13
  I don't, I don't look the same. It's such a compliment to me
• 1:40:16
  when people in my life now hear that my testimony and they say I
• 1:40:20
  can't even imagine that. And that I remember the first
• 1:40:23
  time someone said that to me, that I just glorified God
• 1:40:27
  because that is the only way people could imagine me for most
• 1:40:30
  of my life. That's who I was and that now in
• 1:40:32
  Christ, my desires have changed, my affections have changed, my
• 1:40:37
  practices have changed, my heart has like who I am has changed,
• 1:40:41
  and that people like can't imagine that.
• 1:40:44
  That is truly a testimony of how God truly changes you.
• 1:40:48
  People have said that about you, yes, Like friends and family.
• 1:40:50
  Yes, and especially people who maybe I meet at church and they
• 1:40:54
  don't know my past. They're it.
• 1:40:55
  They're shocked because they know me now deeply.
• 1:40:59
  And and then it's, it's hard to to put the two together.
• 1:41:03
  And that's truly God's grace. And, and I'm amazed because it
• 1:41:09
  wasn't like in the new age, you're always doing all these
• 1:41:11
  things to change the external, like putting on new paint on
• 1:41:15
  yourself. But who I was inside never
• 1:41:17
  changed but in Christ. Like who I am inside changed and
• 1:41:21
  then and then outside I guess. But it was like who I am is new
• 1:41:26
  in Christ. What do your parents think of
• 1:41:29
  the change, especially now that they're probably hearing details
• 1:41:32
  that they didn't even know were happening?
• 1:41:34
  Yeah, my dad is. My dad got saved at the age of
• 1:41:40
  69 which is amazing. He was homeless at the time and
• 1:41:43
  he gave his life to Christ and we've my husband and I have seen
• 1:41:46
  fruit and it it's true like God is amazing.
• 1:41:50
  It's truly amazing. Learning now how to be brother
• 1:41:52
  and sister in Christ and and reform a relationship has been
• 1:41:55
  awesome. My sweet mom, like I love her
• 1:41:59
  and my heart goes out to her because they're like, for
• 1:42:02
  example, when I was on Allie best Ducky, I told her just
• 1:42:05
  maybe don't watch that one. Like, I just want to protect her
• 1:42:07
  heart. And she knows.
• 1:42:09
  And she was deeply concerned, like, up all night, you know,
• 1:42:13
  sick about it. I mean, she's my mom.
• 1:42:15
  Sick about when she learned about what you were involved in?
• 1:42:18
  Sick when I was involved in it so.
• 1:42:20
  She was. She was watching you from a bit
• 1:42:22
  of a distance. You weren't telling her most
• 1:42:24
  things. Probably, yes.
• 1:42:25
  I'm gonna guess. Yes, I would barely see her, she
• 1:42:28
  lived far from me, but she was. Worried about you, she thought.
• 1:42:31
  What weird stuff is my daughter involved?
• 1:42:33
  In exactly, exactly. And so it's been amazing how our
• 1:42:38
  relationship has grown when we had kind of we had a really hard
• 1:42:40
  relationship because I was really rebellious and she never
• 1:42:44
  really knew who I was because I was always lying.
• 1:42:47
  And now to be in Christ and to be like reconciled and we have
• 1:42:51
  such a sweet relationship is truly the grace of God as well.
• 1:42:55
  Have you heard from any of the people that were in the order or
• 1:42:58
  the cult with you, especially since you've come out now so
• 1:43:02
  publicly, you know, sharing the secrets, you know, talking about
• 1:43:05
  what you experienced? Yeah, the only person that's
• 1:43:09
  directly reached out to me and then immediately blocked me was
• 1:43:13
  the one that I talked about where I had the opportunity to
• 1:43:15
  share with her. The other ones who have reached
• 1:43:17
  out, who are in an order similar are have just like one person's
• 1:43:23
  particular who I don't know but has vehemently opposed me,
• 1:43:27
  threatening me years like an obsessive, you know, kind of.
• 1:43:31
  Threatening. Not not physically, but
• 1:43:35
  threatening to, you know, destroy me or those kind of
• 1:43:38
  things which can make, I mean, I'm, I'm a weak girl.
• 1:43:42
  Like sometimes I feel like an aunt, but I'm so encouraged.
• 1:43:45
  I love the Psalms and how God is our strength and our fortress
• 1:43:48
  and our protector. And again, I'm so thankful to
• 1:43:50
  have God's word that I can go to in those times.
• 1:43:54
  Well, and also like the curses of these people don't stand a
• 1:43:58
  chance to the name of Jesus. Like that's the, you know, the
• 1:44:01
  ultimate hope, of course, that we have, you know, God is God.
• 1:44:05
  Yeah, God is God, Yes. And it you're absolutely right.
• 1:44:08
  And it can be so tempting to like, you know, it again, that
• 1:44:12
  like I was enticed into this deception.
• 1:44:14
  But think what comforts me so greatly is the doctrine of God's
• 1:44:17
  sovereignty. Like he is completely in
• 1:44:20
  control. He's not.
• 1:44:21
  It is so comforting. I know who my God is.
• 1:44:25
  And so I mean, sometimes I forget because I'm a I'm a human
• 1:44:29
  and I get distracted and I get scared.
• 1:44:32
  But when I am sober minded and I am in the word and I remember
• 1:44:37
  who God is, like there is such peace in truly serving the God
• 1:44:41
  of the universe. Again, not the way that I wanted
• 1:44:43
  to, not the way that whatever told me I should, but in the way
• 1:44:47
  that God has told me to in His Word.
• 1:44:50
  You made a comment earlier that I just want to pick up on
• 1:44:53
  because it was very interesting. You said something like the
• 1:44:55
  abuse that you endured as a child.
• 1:44:58
  In a way, God used that to protect you from going deeper
• 1:45:01
  down the sex magic route because of your own, you know, fears or
• 1:45:06
  caution around that. Can you share more about that
• 1:45:09
  and how you see that now looking back?
• 1:45:11
  Yeah, I mean, I just I love Romans 828 how God works all
• 1:45:16
  things together for good to those who love him and are
• 1:45:18
  called according to his purpose. And I truly see that in my life.
• 1:45:22
  Like I look back and and sometimes things are hard.
• 1:45:24
  Like my husband knows well, he's walked me through so many
• 1:45:26
  things. That past relationship was
• 1:45:28
  really hard to to recognize what's lies fill my mind with
• 1:45:32
  truth. Like for anyone who's gone
• 1:45:34
  through this stuff, I know it's not a walk in the park, but God
• 1:45:36
  is faithful every step. But I'm just I'm so I'm so, so,
• 1:45:42
  so thankful to have my church community around me and have
• 1:45:45
  have those helps. Can you remind me what you
• 1:45:49
  asked? Again, Oh, just looking back on
• 1:45:50
  it, you know how you see this, this idea that God used, you
• 1:45:54
  know, the abuse to protect you from other bad things that you
• 1:45:57
  might have explored. Yeah.
• 1:45:59
  And so when I mean, there's sometimes I'm tempted to think
• 1:46:02
  because of those things, like I, I wish, which I don't even love
• 1:46:05
  saying anymore, but like it'd be so nice if I didn't experience
• 1:46:09
  these things, you know, then our marriage would be easier than I
• 1:46:11
  wouldn't be. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed,
• 1:46:13
  but the reality is when I soberly think about it, I praise
• 1:46:16
  God that I went through those things because he had a good
• 1:46:19
  purpose in it. One, yes, there's that aspect of
• 1:46:22
  me being restrained in those ways, but also even the really
• 1:46:25
  hard things I went through, God now uses to glorify himself that
• 1:46:28
  I get to praise the Lord and say, Hey, I, I tried these
• 1:46:33
  things and it's only by God's grace and his mercy that I came
• 1:46:38
  out of it. And now I truly know that.
• 1:46:41
  One, I could have just known it by reading his word, but He
• 1:46:43
  truly is the one and only Savior.
• 1:46:45
  There's salvation in no other name given among men under
• 1:46:48
  heaven by which we must be saved.
• 1:46:50
  Like you're not going to find forgiveness of sin and new life
• 1:46:54
  anywhere else. Anywhere else.
• 1:46:56
  Jesus Christ is again, the way, the truth and the life.
• 1:46:59
  And so I'm really thankful for what I experienced because I get
• 1:47:03
  to glorify God in this way, not at all because I deserve it or,
• 1:47:07
  or because I earned it. And that's something that really
• 1:47:09
  stands out to me too, is, you know, again, I was doing so many
• 1:47:14
  rituals and so many things and works and trying to attain my
• 1:47:18
  way to God and trying to make my way to God.
• 1:47:20
  And the rest that I have in Christ, that from works, that
• 1:47:23
  his merit is accounted to me. Like Jesus Christ is the hero,
• 1:47:27
  not me. He is the Savior.
• 1:47:29
  And it is finished. Is is, I mean amazing.
• 1:47:35
  Jack, if you could go back to that time when you were on your
• 1:47:38
  knees crying out, Jesus saved me and you felt like you were being
• 1:47:41
  physically attacked by the demonic, looking back now, what
• 1:47:45
  would you tell that old Jack in that moment now?
• 1:47:49
  Yeah, yeah, I so many things, but I think about I was
• 1:47:56
  Ephesians 2 says, and you were dead in your trespasses and sins
• 1:48:00
  in which you once walked, following the course of this
• 1:48:02
  world, following the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit
• 1:48:05
  that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, among whom we
• 1:48:09
  all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the
• 1:48:11
  desires of body and mind. And we're by nature children of
• 1:48:15
  wrath like the rest of mankind. But God being rich in mercy
• 1:48:19
  because of the great love with which He loved us even when we
• 1:48:22
  were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with
• 1:48:25
  Christ. By grace you have been saved and
• 1:48:27
  raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly
• 1:48:29
  places. And then verses 8 and 9 say, For
• 1:48:32
  it is by grace you've been saved through faith.
• 1:48:34
  And this is not your own doing. It's the gift of God, not a
• 1:48:37
  result of work, so that no one may boast and that that is the
• 1:48:41
  truth and the reality. That would have been such a
• 1:48:43
  comfort to me because I was desperately trying to work my
• 1:48:46
  way to God. I was desperately trying to run
• 1:48:48
  away from my pain, trying to forget the abuse that happened,
• 1:48:51
  trying to be my own God in control, living in this sin,
• 1:48:55
  following the Prince of the power of the air, carrying out
• 1:48:57
  the desires of body and mind like that.
• 1:48:59
  That is me, but God, but God. And you know, I only knew a
• 1:49:05
  small glimpse of that at that time, but to see his
• 1:49:07
  faithfulness from that moment on through my life, like his
• 1:49:12
  faithfulness to complete the work that he began in me.
• 1:49:16
  I mean, I will. I would even if I could spend
• 1:49:20
  every every word for the rest of my life only praising him.
• 1:49:23
  It wouldn't even be close to enough.
• 1:49:25
  Like, yeah. You went from this ritual
• 1:49:30
  magical world with all of these symbols and its own dogmas,
• 1:49:35
  ultimately its own belief system.
• 1:49:37
  And now you've entered, you know, this part of your life
• 1:49:41
  where you're with God, you are trying to follow him, and you're
• 1:49:43
  exposing this other life that you were a part of.
• 1:49:47
  Yeah, there might be some people skeptical saying, well, it looks
• 1:49:51
  like she's just trading one sort of hyper mystical world for
• 1:49:55
  another dogmatic, you know, supernatural belief system.
• 1:50:00
  What would you say to them? Yeah, and that's something, you
• 1:50:03
  know, we get a lot and it's there.
• 1:50:07
  There's a difference between getting to know God for who he
• 1:50:11
  truly is and then all the other religions of the world and all
• 1:50:14
  the other religions will tell you you can be God and you need
• 1:50:18
  to work your way to God. And Christianity is the one
• 1:50:21
  religion and the truth that is God is God and you are not and
• 1:50:26
  you will never be. And that Christ did it for us.
• 1:50:31
  It's not that I earn my way to God.
• 1:50:33
  It's that God loved us so much that he made the way for us in
• 1:50:37
  Christ. That he lived the life that I
• 1:50:39
  didn't live, that he died the death I deserve to live.
• 1:50:42
  That is bloodshed like the he truly is a substitutionary
• 1:50:46
  atonement, which is a fancy word that he, he is the atoning
• 1:50:49
  sacrifice for me. Like I'm washed clean.
• 1:50:52
  I've searched all the other religions.
• 1:50:54
  You don't find forgiveness of sin and redemption anywhere
• 1:50:58
  else. That's because this is this,
• 1:51:00
  this is true. This is the reality.
• 1:51:02
  And it's hard to push away from rebellion and it's hard to
• 1:51:07
  submit and bow the knee and humble yourself.
• 1:51:10
  But if you're watching this and you're in deception, I I
• 1:51:14
  encourage you to pray and truly humble yourself before God,
• 1:51:17
  confess your sin and and turn to Him.
• 1:51:20
  So many people in their world today are obsessed with
• 1:51:22
  mindfulness and with, you know, meditation and magic.
• 1:51:28
  How do you persuade people who are living in the new Age and
• 1:51:31
  don't think it's harmful? They think it's actually a good
• 1:51:32
  thing that this is actually a path that can destroy your soul.
• 1:51:35
  Yes, sometimes it can be helpful to to share the the core of the
• 1:51:41
  teaching, like, oh, you know, you're talking about this, but
• 1:51:44
  you know, the core of this is this.
• 1:51:45
  Sometimes that's helpful. I just encourage anyone sharing
• 1:51:49
  to pray, pray, pray and to know the words so that you can share
• 1:51:53
  the truth. But yeah, sometimes it can be
• 1:51:55
  really helpful to to know what the root is or if you don't
• 1:51:59
  know, say, hey, you know, I'll get back to you, say
• 1:52:01
  mindfulness. If you know something's kind of
• 1:52:03
  off but you're not sure, you can maybe look up like where does
• 1:52:06
  this stem from? What are the beliefs behind it
• 1:52:07
  to get an understanding of because things are so packaged
• 1:52:11
  in this, you know, things can be so packaged to be totally fine
• 1:52:15
  and innocent. But then when you look at like
• 1:52:18
  what the belief system is behind it, if you just knew that it
• 1:52:21
  would be clearly opposed to God. But people get deceived because
• 1:52:23
  it's packaged so well. So just to be able to point them
• 1:52:27
  to what it well one, what the truth is and also what is the
• 1:52:31
  core of it. There is so much chaos in the
• 1:52:34
  world today, a lot of confusion, people seeking the truth.
• 1:52:38
  What would you tell people listening right now in there may
• 1:52:44
  be confusion or the chaos that they're experiencing.
• 1:52:46
  What? What message would you have for
• 1:52:47
  them? Yeah, I think of Jesus's words
• 1:52:49
  in John 1717 where he said sanctify them in the truth.
• 1:52:53
  Your word is truth. Like it really was me like
• 1:52:57
  humbly. And even when I wasn't humble,
• 1:52:59
  it was me reading the word of God and God using his living and
• 1:53:03
  active word to to again judge the thoughts and intentions of
• 1:53:06
  my heart and Pierce through my heart.
• 1:53:08
  So praying, immersing yourself in the word of God just so that
• 1:53:12
  so that you know the truth, because when there's so many
• 1:53:15
  lies in your head, you need to know the truth.
• 1:53:18
  And again, I can speak from my testimony.
• 1:53:21
  It was reading those that Scripture that was even though
• 1:53:24
  in the moment I thought whatever it was piercing me, piercing me,
• 1:53:28
  piercing me as I was practicing my, my, you know, craft.
• 1:53:32
  So just to, to get in the word of God, to know who God truly
• 1:53:36
  is, because that's where God has chosen to reveal himself.
• 1:53:39
  Yeah. And get to know him.
• 1:53:41
  Jack, what does your ministry look like now and how put?
• 1:53:43
  How can people find it? Thank you for asking.
• 1:53:47
  I'm a wife and I love being a wife and I love getting to serve
• 1:53:51
  my husband. So that's my first ministry.
• 1:53:54
  And yeah, I also do a podcast called New Age to New Heart
• 1:53:59
  where we talk about the new Age and it's me, Doreen Virtue and
• 1:54:04
  Gennesa, and we talk about what we used to practice and why it's
• 1:54:08
  unbiblical. And I'm writing a book right
• 1:54:10
  now, which I'm extremely excited about.
• 1:54:12
  It's an apologetics book and also sharing my testimony.
• 1:54:17
  So it's, it's really been a blessing to really get to the
• 1:54:20
  core of what these teachings are and expose them for the fraud
• 1:54:24
  and the awfulness that they are. And it's been really amazing to
• 1:54:27
  be meditating on God's word and, and seeing, laying out the false
• 1:54:30
  teaching, being in the word and seeing God.
• 1:54:33
  The word is amazing and the truth is so much better than the
• 1:54:36
  lie, but kind of unmasking that deception.
• 1:54:39
  So I'm that'll come out June of next year.
• 1:54:42
  Amazing. Thank you so much, Jack, for
• 1:54:44
  coming in and sharing your story.
• 1:54:45
  It's incredible. Praise the Lord, thank you so
• 1:54:47
  much for having me. Thanks so much for listening to
• 1:54:50
  Jack Marino Chen's incredible testimony.
• 1:54:52
  I hope it was inspiring for you. You can find and follow her at
• 1:54:56
  the link in the description. Don't forget to subscribe, guys,
• 1:54:59
  if you're not already subscribed and we will see you next time.
• 1:55:02
  And a huge thank you to EWTN Eternal Word Television Network,
• 1:55:05
  which is the largest religious broadcaster in the world.
• 1:55:08
  You can get access to Lila Rose Show episodes 24 hours in
• 1:55:12
  advance at ewtn.com. On demand and a big thank you to
• 1:55:16
  EW 10 and their incredible mission to bring souls to Jesus.