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Anxious or Avoidant? Why Your Relationship Patterns Repeat & How to Change Them (Part 1) · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey, everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch and Waking Up to Narcissism.
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Now, how does that work? First, happy 2025.
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This is one of the first times that I've taken a little bit of a break from
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the podcast world, and I have missed it. I have missed each and every one of you listeners.
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So I'm glad to be back. There are so many exciting things planned for 2025.
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Now, why Waking Up to Narcissism and Virtual Couch?
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Let's go on my train of thought. There have been a fair amount of people who
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have said that they almost have to sneak listen or sneak watch Waking Up to
0:40
Narcissism. And that truly does break my heart.
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And while I have all of my podcast friends listening here, virtual couch and
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Waking Up to Narcissism, I will own that I am contributing to the overuse and
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even maybe the desensitization of the word narcissism over time.
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But the name of that podcast is very well thought out, Waking Up to...
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That could be waking up to the narcissism or narcissistic traits or tendencies
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in yourself, in your relationship to anyone, a spouse, a boss,
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a pet, if you happen to be a cat person.
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But I was clear early, and I try to say often as much as I can to the detriment
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of word count, that it's more like waking up to the narcissistic traits,
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tendencies, or states in yourself or your spouse or boss or cat or even more.
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I think it's really important to recognize that narcissistic personality disorder
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is a very small percentage of the population.
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And I would even say that if you are listening to this, even in protest,
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chances are probably that you are not a narcissist, but you are most likely emotionally immature.
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I believe we all are. So welcome to the club.
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Becoming more emotionally mature, more emotionally consistent.
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More emotionally safe is a lifelong pursuit.
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But once you get the hang of it, it is actually a very empowering feeling and
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something that becomes part of the journey of finding out who you are,
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the whole solid sense of self, recognizing that I am okay.
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I'll give you a pretty good example. So I am currently, right now,
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experiencing back and arm pain literally for the first time in my 55 years on the planet.
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And I had an MRI a week or so ago, and I had to sit in a little tube for half
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an hour and not move, and that was a trip all in and of itself.
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But the results admittedly weren't what I had hoped for or even anticipated.
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And apparently, I can't just ignore them and everything will go away because
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the pain continues to be there.
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So over the past couple of years, I've talked a big game about just being and doing.
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Check that out. This is happening for the very first time in our lives.
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And give yourself grace and accept the emotions and the feelings and all of
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those wonderful things. And I believe them.
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And then all of a sudden, I have some really acute pain and I'm thinking about it so much.
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And I was also on another podcast that I'm associated with, The Q&A Files. Go find and subscribe.
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It is with my friends, Tricia and Dr. Jeff Jamison, where we answer all kinds
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of questions from the view of a life coach, Tricia, a doctor,
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Dr. Jeff, and a therapist, me.
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But I made sure in this recording that I worked into my part several times that
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I now think that I will never get better. I will never feel whole again.
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I will never run again. We're going to have to take off my arm at some point.
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I do have more empathy now for people who experience chronic pain,
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and I'm only on three or four weeks into this.
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But I complained about it like a little child, a very emotionally immature child,
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wanting people to tell me that I'm going to be okay, making all of the focus on me.
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So check that out. All of a sudden, I'm struggling a bit to use all of those
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tools, those incredible tools that have served me so well.
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But I hopefully have now settled more into acceptance that this is happening.
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And it truly is my muse, my opportunity to self-confront and grow,
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possibly even make some significant changes.
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And everything from diet to the type of exercise I do, which brings up questions about identity.
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And all of that is uncertain and scary. So truly check that out.
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But ultimately, these are all me things and I need to do everything that I can
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to learn to heal myself, advocate for myself.
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Sometimes I do want to shut down. I do want somebody to tell me that it's going
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to be okay. I do want somebody to tell me what to do, despite the fact that
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nobody knows exactly what it feels like to be me.
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Back to that emotional immaturity. We are all emotionally immature and we never
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know when it's going to creep up on us because we likely weren't modeled how
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to adult perfectly by our parents because we're barely scratching the surface of how to do that now.
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Now, our feelings and our emotions, while I will still argue that they aren't
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necessarily welcome everywhere, they are being tolerated or we are starting
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to talk about them more and we're starting to understand what our emotions are trying to tell us.
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I'm grateful that they are not 100% shunned by society.
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But what I've decided to do, and this is the big takeaway, is to slowly but
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surely bring all podcasts back to a home base, the virtual couch.
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And while I would love it if you subscribe to everything I do,
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so if you, my Waking Up to Narcissism listeners, can eventually make your way
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over to hitting the subscribe or follow button on the virtual couch podcast
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feed, all content will be there.
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All content will originate there. Now, if you only want the Waking Up to Narcissism
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content and you're not in a place where that can be viewed or taken the wrong
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way by a spouse, a partner,
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or your cat, because I do swear that they know things, then you can just continue
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to stay right where you are, just subscribing to Waking Up to Narcissism.
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But if you subscribe to the Virtual Couch, you'll start to see Virtual Couch
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Presents a Waking Up episode.
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So catch that, Waking Up. Maybe we'll leave out the narcissism of the title.
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Or you'll see a Virtual Couch Presents a Love ADHD episode, or a Murder on the
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Couch episode, or just a general Virtual Couch mental health episode. You name it.
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So this Virtual Couch podcast feed will be home to all, and Waking Up to Narcissism
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will stay Waking Up to Narcissism.
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So go to my newly updated website, tonyoverbay.com, sign up for the newsletter
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and follow me on TikTok at virtual couch or on Instagram at virtual.couch.
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I still have my private women's Facebook group. That is phenomenal.
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And then the men's emotional architects course and group and monthly cohort is here and we are ready.
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So email me. I will reach out to those of you that I have the emails to,
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but email me. It is going to be a very powerful group of helping us become more emotionally mature.
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And I also have the path back, the online. And I realize now that one of the
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reasons that I don't think there's as big of a subscriber base on YouTube.
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Maybe it sounds like I'm making excuses, but I have now learned that just straight
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up talking about cornography, but not referring to it with the corn.
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Hopefully you see where I'm going with this, that I have a cornography recovery
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program that helps you become the very best version of yourself.
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But when I've been saying the real thing, apparently that is not always okay.
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I've been needing to blur that out verbally, But regardless,
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the Path Back is an incredible program.
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If you are struggling with turning to corn as an unhealthy coping mechanism,
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go to pathbackrecovery.com or reach out to me. I will give you a coupon code as a happy new year.
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Come join that group. It's phenomenal. The Emotional Architects group is amazing.
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The Private Women's Facebook group is so incredibly good.
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My Magnetic Marriage course, online parenting course. Go subscribe and follow
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and like and all those sorts of things.
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Let's get to today's show.
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Hey, everybody. My name is Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family
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therapist. And today we are going to talk about something I think is so fascinating,
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and I want to start with story time.
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This is a study that changed how we understand human relationships.
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Let me take you back to London in the 1930s and the 1940s. I will not try to
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do an accent or even close.
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But what's really interesting is sometimes the biggest discoveries that we have
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come from somebody simply paying attention to what everybody else is overlooking.
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So picture this, you've got a young psychiatrist and his name is John Bowlby,
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and he's working at a clinic for troubled kids.
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And at this time, the popular belief was very, very straightforward.
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And you may see some of this today.
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Feed kids, keep them clean, give them a roof over their heads,
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and they will be fine. The emotional stuff, not really on anybody's radar.
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But Bowlby started noticing something that didn't quite fit into this theory
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because he kept seeing patterns in the troubled kids that he worked with.
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And a lot of them had experienced very early separation from their parents,
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or they had really disrupted relationships with their caregivers,
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whatever that caregiver was, if they'd been orphaned or if they'd been adopted.
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So, Bowlby was onto something big, but it's so wild to throw that concept of
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presentism in here, where we know what we know now, but at that time,
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this was so old school, so unstudied.
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But he started documenting how when young kids were separated from their parents,
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like during hospital stays, which were so common back then, that they go through
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these pretty predictable stages.
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First, they would protest and they would go into this deep despair.
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And then finally, this kind of emotional detachment.
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Fast forward to the 1950s and enter a woman named Mary Ainsworth,
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and she was a brilliant psychologist in her own right.
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She started working with Bowlby and she's fascinated by his ideas.
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So she's thinking, how can we study this scientifically?
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And this is where we so often talk about the therapy. Psychology is more of
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a soft science because you have these true scientists that wanted to observe
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and study things using scientific method, but then you have real human beings
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with so many different variables.
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She says, how can we study this scientifically? Because they truly didn't know what they didn't know.
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But Ainsworth was determined to figure this out in these attachment patterns with kids.
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And in doing so, she didn't even realize that she was about to help us know
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something pretty incredible about human relationships that has persisted today
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in the world of attachment.
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So she heads over to Uganda for a research project and she starts observing
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mothers and babies in the wild in their natural settings.
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And she's noticing that there's these really, really subtle differences in how
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the moms respond to the babies and then how these differences seem to affect
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the babies and how they behave with their moms.
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And anybody that has done a job for a while or they really love what they do,
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they really do start to notice patterns.
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It's one of the things that I love about my job. You start to recognize a little
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bit of what such an easy way to put this is, but maybe what more normal behavior
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looks like versus somebody that is something just seems a little bit abnormal
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in the way that they are showing up.
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Someone that in my world, then it looks like they're pretending to do what they
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think someone would do in this situation rather than just being their authentic self.
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But she wants to understand this more. And again, very systematically.
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And thank goodness. So she's thinking
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there has to be a way to see these attachment patterns more clearly.
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Still looking at this from a scientific model. And this leads to her design. This is the fun part.
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What might be one of the, probably one of the most important psychology experiments conducted.
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The strange situation. I wish we could cue in some eerie music in here,
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but what she discovered was very strange and it was very mind blowing.
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And it completely changed how we understand human relationships,
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Mary Ainsworth set up a room with toys like a playroom at a daycare.
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And then she creates what she calls an eight episode drama.
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She was well ahead of Netflix and Hulu, but the way this thing happened,
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it unfolds about every 20 minutes.
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Each step was very carefully designed to activate what's called the attachment system.
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Basically, it's the kid's internal programming about relationships and about safety.
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So how this thing played out, a parent and their young child,
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usually between 12 and 18 months, we're talking really young, enter a room.
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And at first, it's just the two of them. And the child typically starts exploring
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the toys while the parent sits in a chair, not even on their phone,
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which is odd to think this is in the 1950s.
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So this first phase tells us something important. Does the child feel secure
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enough to explore or move away from this home base when their parent is present?
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Do they occasionally check back with their parent? And that's what Mary Ainsworth
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called refueling. Are they going out and are they exploring and checking back?
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And then comes the first plot twist. A stranger enters the room.
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Now the researchers watch how the child responds to this new person.
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Do they show appropriate caution? Do they look at their parents for cues about
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whether this person is safe?
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And this starts to tell us a little bit about what that child's ability is to
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use their parents for what I would refer to as a secure base.
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Looking at what the concept of a secure attachment could eventually become.
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And here's where I think it's really interesting. The parent then leaves the
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room. Now the child is left with the stranger.
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And this is the first separation episode, and it's designed to activate this attachment system.
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And at that time, researchers are closely observing how the child responds to the separation.
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Does the child become distressed? Or do they try to follow mom out of the room?
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Do they accept comfort from the stranger?
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And now minutes later, the parent returns. And this reunion is one of the most
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revealing moments in the entire experiment. The researchers watch.
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Does the child greet the parent warmly? Do they ignore the parent?
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Do they seek contact, but then angrily resist it? Almost like,
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what the heck, where did you go? And then there's the second separation.
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And this time the kid is left completely alone.
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And after a brief period, the stranger returns. And then finally,
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the parent comes back in for a second reunion.
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And you might even be thinking, would this even be something that someone would allow today?
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Because they would probably worry a lot about the stress that that would put
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on the kid. But what made the study kind of mind-blowing was the clear patterns
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that emerged and how different children responded.
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Because Ainsworth was able to identify three main patterns. And then there was
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a researcher named Mary Main, and she added a fourth down the road.
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But first, securely attached children.
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They became upset when their parent left. But then when the parent returned,
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they actively sought contact with their parent. And then they were easily comforted.
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And then once they were comforted, they returned to playing and exploring.
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So it's like they had this internal working model that said,
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my parents are a safe haven.
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So when I'm upset, I can count on them to help me feel better so that I can
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go back out and explore the world.
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Now anxiously attached kids showed a lot of distress during the separation and
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then they had difficulty settling down when their parent returned They might
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actually go seek contact from their parent, but then resist it.
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It's almost like they're they're pushing their parent away while they're also
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crying It's like this internal model said I can't count on my parent to be there consistently and.
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Man, I need my parent. So I'm going to cling a little bit tightly,
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but I'm not happy about it.
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It's kind of interesting. If any of you have already identified yourselves as
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anxiously attached and I am raising my hand, then that might resonate.
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And then let's talk about avoidant. Avoidantly attached children showed little
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to no distress when their parent left, and they often ignored or even avoided
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their parent when the parent returned.
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So they might just keep playing with the toys and turning their back on the
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parent. And it's interesting that it wasn't because they didn't care.
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Because when you could eventually start measuring heart rates,
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stress hormones, those were actually elevated, just like with the anxious kid.
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But they had learned to suppress their attachment needs.
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Like their whole internal model said, it's safer not to show that I need comfort.
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I can't show anybody that I care.
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And I wonder if any of you avoidantly attached can identify with this feeling,
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even now in your relationships.
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And then later researchers identified a fourth pattern, disorganized attachment,
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where the kids, they seemed very confused and they exhibited contradictory behaviors.
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Like they would literally freeze in place or they would even approach their parent backwards.
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And what made the whole study revolutionary was how it demonstrated that these
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early attachment patterns weren't just about a child's personality or their
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temperament, but they were strategies that the kids displayed and they developed
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based on their experiences with their caregiver.
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And it showed that our very earliest relationships create this template for
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how we then expect relationships to work throughout our lives.
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And that becomes part of our hardwiring.
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We don't even know what we don't know. That is just what we are doing and how
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we are thinking and feeling.
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It's just the way that we show up in the world. And we so often think that this
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is how everybody else looks at the world as well. A little projection, anybody?
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Even more fascinating, when researchers then started eventually studying adults,
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they found very similar patterns in romantic relationships.
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So the kid who learned, I can't count on others to be there,
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they might become the adult who is checking to see if their partner has read
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their text message or checking their devices or where are they or why is it taking so long?
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Or I thought they said that they would be home at this time.
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Why haven't they responded back to me?
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And the kid who learned to suppress their attachment needs might become the
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adult who gets very uncomfortable if their partner really expresses too much
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emotion, which you can see these patterns that start to play out if they are
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not curious or meeting that partner where they're at.
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When their partner is getting anxious and expressing emotion,
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it can just cause that partner, the anxious partner, to elevate even more,
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which can cause the avoidant partner to suppress even more.
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And now we're into this dance, this cycle, and it's a very unhealthy dance.
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This research gave us a window into how our earliest experience is very,
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very early, before we got into our relationships. Well before that,
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they shape our expectations about our relationships that we're in now.
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But those patterns, and I just want to be very clear what we're going to talk
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about today, they can change with new experiences, but you need to know what
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you didn't know first. You need to have this understanding and then a fair amount
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of work and consistency.
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So this is where the hope lies in attachment theory, that understanding these
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patterns is the very first step in being able to work with them and potentially change them.
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Because we're going to move from today, if there are things that you didn't
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even know that you know about. Well, now you know.
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And it's going to be a very fun but frustrating ride now because you're going to know.
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You're going to want to make changes and you're going to continue to try and
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have some success and then you're going to go back to your home base.
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Maybe that is this anxious or avoidant or even that disorganized attachment style.
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Then you'll make a little bit
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of progress and then you'll go back to your home base and back and forth.
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So we're moving from that, that I didn't know what I didn't know,
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that now I know, but I'm not 100% sure what to do or I don't do it.
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All the time or all that well, even. And that is probably the longest place
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that you'll stay in, in this growth process, one of the most frustrating parts as well.
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So just know that you're on the right path. We're going to eventually get to
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the point where you're doing whatever it is that you're trying to do way more than you did before.
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Now you still might return back to that old home base from time to time,
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but finally you're doing it so much that it just becomes who you are.
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You become, and that is an amazing place to be.
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So let me explain this relationship and attachment concept in a little more clear terms.
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Think of your early childhood as the time where we learn our very first and
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most important lessons about relationships.
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And maybe the genesis or the origin story starts in that mother-child relationship.
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And I want you to know, I'm not saying that dads don't play a role.
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As a matter of fact, oh, we will get into that. We'll get into a lot of detail
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about that because they really do.
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And in same-gendered households, there may tend to be one partner who takes
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on more of a nurturing role, maybe one that takes on more of an assertive role.
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But just for the sake of today, I'll go with the gender stereotyped mother in
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this scenario is the more nurturing parent.
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So the mother-child relationship creates a template that often shapes how we
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connect with others throughout our lives.
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And the key idea here is that babies and little kids have, they have a need,
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they need their moms or their primary caregiver to be mirrors,
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reflecting back their experiences, their emotions, their needs.
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And this helps kids develop a very strong sense of who they are.
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So when a mom constantly responds with empathy and attention and affection,
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the kid learns I matter and my feelings matter and I can trust others.
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I can trust that they will be there for me, but sometimes that mirror gets a little bit distorted.
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And let me go into a couple of ways that this can happen. The first scenario,
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we'll call it the absent mirror.
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And this is when moms are unavailable and it's whether physically or emotionally.
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And I would just like to lay down some tracks right now.
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Welcome to a shame-free zone for the rest of this entire podcast or any of the
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podcasts that you listen to that I put out.
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Because nothing is wrong with you if you're hearing this and thinking,
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oh my gosh, that's what I did as a mom or that's what I did as a dad or that's
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what I'm doing right now.
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Because again, you did not know what you did not know. And you are a product
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of your nature and nurture, birth order, abandonment, hope streams, DNA.
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It just is. Give yourself a lot of grace because this is going to be a pretty
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fun ride when you start to recognize how we got to where we did,
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the origin story of how this all worked, because now we can start to heal it.
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Now we can start to improve it. A child, again, this goes back to when moms
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are unavailable and it could be because they have a lot of kids.
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It could be because they were forced to go into more of a provider role.
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Maybe their husband became sick. Maybe he was abusive. Maybe somebody passed away.
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You never know. Maybe there's betrayal. It can be so many different things.
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So when the mom is unavailable, again, physically or emotionally, no judgment.
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The child experiences a deep sense of abandonment.
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And this is especially impactful because young kids depend entirely on their
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caregivers, not just for physical survival, but for the emotional development,
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which as we noted earlier, has not really been a thing or not talked about very much at all.
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But this early experience of abandonment often creates this anxious attachment style.
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So these kids often grow up to become pursuers in the relationships,
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always seeking reassurance and connection, afraid of being abandoned.
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And again, that can feel like a lot.
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I'll raise both my hands here because I am a card carrying member of this anxious attachment club.
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I know that vibe so well. Hey, everything good? Are we good?
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It's been a few minutes. You haven't really told me how cool I am yet.
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Just making sure if there's anything wrong, you'll tell me, right?
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I'll be right over here and you're sure. Okay.
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You know, watch what I'm doing while I'm over here. I mean, it is kind of fun.
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Watch me juggle. I'm very good at this. It doesn't seem like you're very into that.
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I don't know. Do you want to ask me some questions about it do you think i'm fun.
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That anxious attachment, that can be a lot. It can also be a lot of fun.
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Second scenario, you've got this distorted mirror. So sometimes moms who struggle
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with their own emotional issues, depression, lower self-esteem,
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unresolved trauma, really unhealthy relationships, they aren't able to see their
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kid as a separate person.
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So instead of responding to who their child actually is or is becoming,
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they project their needs and their own feelings onto the kid.
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It's like the mom's using the child more as an extension of herself rather than
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seeing the kid as their own separate person.
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And kids in this situation learn that love comes from meeting others' needs
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while ignoring their own. They become a human doing, not a human being.
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And that probably sounds pretty familiar to a lot of my listeners.
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And this often leads to what is called an avoidant attachment style,
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that these kids grow up to become emotionally unavailable partners because they're
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afraid of being engulfed or they're afraid of being controlled in a relationship.
21:23
So, what does that look like in the long run when these avoidantly attached kids become adults?
21:29
Then intimate relationships feel like walking through a minefield of proverbial
21:33
eggshells all over the place that the person with the anxious attachment has left behind.
21:39
This avoidantly attached person
21:41
does want connection, but they also fear their own abandonment so bad.
21:45
And that causes them to feel rejection, loneliness.
21:48
Even the avoidant can often think I'll be alone forever. I'm okay with that.
21:53
And what can be so difficult is that pursuer, the anxiously attached,
21:56
desperately wants connection, but also they fear their own abandonment so bad
21:59
and they fear rejection and loneliness.
22:02
So I got to make sure I cling to this person regardless of whatever it is that
22:05
I need to do to make that work.
22:07
So then the person with the avoidant attachment, now they want their independence,
22:10
but they fear being controlled or they fear being invaded or overwhelmed.
22:14
And that creates a painful dance where neither person feel secure enough to really be intimate.
22:19
True intimacy is being known by somebody and knowing another person without
22:23
having that threaten who you are.
22:25
So for real intimacy to develop, both partners have to develop the solid sense of who they are.
22:30
It's like taking two whole circles coming together to form a healthy relationship
22:34
rather than two incomplete circles trying to complete themselves to the other person.
22:39
It's not two halves make a whole, it's two holes start rolling.
22:44
And maybe that didn't hit as much as I thought it would. But without this foundation,
22:48
the relationship becomes codependent.
22:49
It becomes enmeshed with each person either focused way too much on maintaining
22:53
a connection, the pursuer, or maintaining their independence,
22:57
the avoider, not allowing others to help them.
23:00
That is just too much for the avoidant to ask.
23:03
It's really vulnerable to put themselves out there.
23:06
And unfortunately, the anxiously attached views that as, okay,
23:11
you don't care about me enough to allow me in because to the anxious partner,
23:15
they want people to know them.
23:17
They want people to ask them. They want people to help them.
23:19
You can see where that dynamic is so difficult.
23:22
That's why I think so often people that are in these push and pull,
23:26
these pursuer, withdrawer, these anxious and avoidant attachments in their relationship
23:31
can feel so stuck because they're stuck in that push and pull pattern,
23:34
the pursuer and the withdrawal pattern.
23:36
With one partner pretty continually seeking a closer connection,
23:39
while the other is more avoidant, keeping their distance and feeling overwhelmed and engulfed.
23:44
But then the good news is that understanding these patterns is truly the first
23:48
step toward healing them, usually with the help of therapy, counseling,
23:50
maybe some good coaching.
23:51
Okay, so let's now talk about the dad's role in the attachment origin story.
23:57
Dads, I come in peace because I am one of you. I'm one of you four times over
24:01
and please go find on YouTube, some of the live question and answers that I've
24:06
done with my daughter, Sydney and Mackie.
24:08
As I mentioned earlier, I think it takes a lot of courage to know somebody,
24:12
especially someone that you had a hand in raising.
24:15
And it can be really difficult to hear how different your child's experiences
24:19
were of their childhood or of their life in general or of you.
24:23
But this is where I think the work really lies because I believe that the father
24:27
has just such an incredible opportunity to provide that presence to their spouse
24:32
or to their children's, shall we call it, radiance.
24:34
You're providing the presence to their radiance. Let me just take you on a quick train of thought.
24:39
In my original Magnetic Marriage course that I did with my friend Preston Pugmire.
24:44
We gave this example of these concepts, and it's more around the concepts of
24:48
masculine and feminine energy or polarity.
24:51
And we're not even talking about male, female, but more presence and radiance.
24:55
In other cultures, this is Shiva and Shakti or yin and yang.
24:59
Presence, radiance, nurturing, assertive. We need to become the picture frame
25:04
to their beautiful artwork or the river bank to the flowing water.
25:07
And these are concepts. These are energies. These are vibes. This is woo-woo.
25:11
And I think what a father can provide is think about when you are getting on
25:16
a roller coaster, when you get in and you first sit down and the attendant puts
25:21
the lap bar down, what's one of the first things that you do?
25:24
You pull up on it, you test it for safety.
25:26
Am I safe? And if that thing is locked in, then when I am going,
25:30
my hands are up and I am yelling and I am screaming.
25:32
And I hope that we're doing one of those things that goes upside down.
25:35
But what do you do before you even go upside down?
25:37
Typically, maybe with your legs or even your hand, you pull up on it.
25:41
You push up with your legs a little bit and you say, okay, am I still safe?
25:44
Because if I am safe, then I can experience this entire ride because they will
25:48
test for safety on occasion. They will lift up to see, am I safe to make sure.
25:53
But when they know that they are safe, then they can raise their hands up in
25:58
the air on those downhills of life, and they can really enjoy the ride,
26:02
and they can feel your presence.
26:03
Assuming that life's attendant wasn't overly aggressive as they boarded the
26:06
ride and pushed the lap bar down just one click too much, kind of as an act
26:10
of defiance, maybe thanks to an argument that they had with their own dad earlier
26:13
that day before heading to the amusement park, then I can just find joy in this radiance.
26:17
And so, I think that the father can play such a role in this masculine presence,
26:21
this emotional consistency, this emotional safety.
26:25
And that's why it's so important to understand emotional immaturity.
26:28
So that then we can know what it feels like to be emotionally mature and not
26:32
to use our kids as emotional support animals and to learn how to deal with my
26:35
own emotions, not project them onto my wife, not project them onto my kids so
26:39
that then they have to deal with my anxiety or my anger or my fear.
26:42
That's a me thing. And that's something that when I have the right tools,
26:45
it's an incredibly powerful thing to be in touch with my own core masculine
26:50
presence and know that, yes, my emotions are still welcome.
26:53
They are still valid, but they're there to teach me. And it turns out that I
26:57
can learn how to self-soothe, to regulate, to not need somebody else to tell me that I'm okay.
27:03
And when I know I'm okay, when I truly love myself, now I can love others.
27:07
I can love my family wholly.
27:09
I can't need them to make up any deficiencies that I find in myself because I am also enough as I am.
27:16
We need to become this lap bar on their roller coaster of life.
27:20
But hopefully you can see that dads in particular, not only need,
27:24
we have this opportunity to become this stabilizing figure in the home,
27:28
to become more emotionally consistent, to become more emotionally aware,
27:31
emotionally mature, emotionally present.
27:34
And that doesn't mean that we're not allowed to have our emotions and feelings.
27:37
But what if I were to tell you that for us in particular, we really don't have
27:41
a clue what to do with those emotions and feelings.
27:43
Again, because most likely we were told or conditioned or modeled,
27:46
don't let them see you cry, rub a little dirt in it to fix everything, fix it mentality,
27:52
even things, unfortunately, that maybe don't need to be fixed,
27:55
like other people's experiences or their emotions or their big feelings.
28:00
And this, gentlemen listening or people who know, gentlemen who can listen,
28:04
is a slice of the work that is happening in my men's emotional architects group.
28:08
So please reach out to me and contact at TonyOverBay.com or through the website, TonyOverBay.com.
28:13
Because there is so much more there that is born from a place of emotional immaturity
28:19
and the way that we often don't even realize that if we are not aware,
28:24
self-aware, doing our own work, that we are projecting a lot of our own anger,
28:30
frustration, discomfort into the family system.
28:33
And this is where even the best of dads will hear at times that their kids or
28:38
their spouse doesn't even know what version of dad is going to walk through that door.
28:42
And that can be a humbling experience to hear, but I think it can also be one
28:45
of the most helpful things to hear and understand and use as your muse to self-confront
28:51
and grow, because that is 100% an experience that I have had in my own family system,
28:56
thinking that I was the world's greatest dad in all things, but not realizing
29:00
that when I was down and walking in,
29:03
not even realizing the way that I could upset the mood or disrupt the mood of the entire house.
29:07
And so then I would be surprised if I came home later, a different day,
29:11
a different time and now I'm feeling on top of the world and wondering why isn't
29:14
everybody wanting to celebrate with me because I feel great now.
29:17
But then why isn't everybody wanting to back off when I need a moment and realizing,
29:21
oh, I don't know how to communicate. I don't.
29:25
My feelings and emotions in an emotionally safe and emotionally consistent way.
29:29
And over time, learning that, okay, actually, those emotions and feelings and
29:33
thoughts are there for me to do a quick check-in and see why this is important to me.
29:38
But so dads, reach out because there's a lot of good work that can be done.
29:42
And it has to do a lot with the things that we don't know that we don't know.
29:46
And I do think that there's a fair amount of what I deem as unhelpful advice
29:50
or tools that are out there right now around some concepts that can start to
29:55
move into the realm of, well, shall we say toxic masculinity.
29:58
There's a pendulum effect to so many things in human behavior,
30:02
in therapy, in psychology, where you may go your whole life,
30:06
not even realizing that you're being this nice guy, that you're being overly
30:09
accommodating, that you're a people
30:10
pleaser, that you're actually more sensitive than you lead on to be.
30:13
And that if you can just do everything for everybody and put your head down
30:17
and keep working, that they will all appreciate you. and you're meanwhile setting
30:20
up these covert contracts, these, okay, we'll see if anybody does this.
30:24
We'll see if anybody appreciates me. We'll see if she'll hold my hand.
30:26
We'll see if she'll initiate.
30:27
And then when this person who doesn't even know that they're being tested fails
30:30
that test and we get to say, what is wrong with me? And nobody cares about me.
30:34
But then that pendulum will swing all the way over the other side where then
30:37
we go too big with our emotions and we finally can't take it anymore.
30:41
But there's a way to recognize what is happening inside and finding this place
30:46
down in the middle of this pendulum that I like to call calm, confident energy.
30:52
So reach out and I can help with that.
30:54
But again, I believe the father's role in attachment is very crucial,
30:59
just like the mom, even though historically we do see that attachment theory
31:02
focuses more on mom since they are typically the primary caregiver.
31:05
So when the theory was developed, that was the data that we were looking at.
31:08
But here's what I think is more of what the father's impact can be as well.
31:11
So just like a mom, a father's presence or absence and then the quality of their
31:15
interactions, that also then
31:17
creates powerful blueprints on how a child learns to relate with others.
31:21
So while moms often provide the first experience of nurturing and comfort,
31:25
fathers can often offer very different but very equally important experiences.
31:29
Fathers may tend to, in a healthy situation, encourage maybe more playful or
31:34
challenging interactions to help a kid learn to regulate strong emotions.
31:37
And I feel like I could almost insert a record scratch here because we're talking
31:41
in a perfect or are in a really good world because I know that a father has
31:47
to be comfortable with his own emotions or he'll easily regulate these strong
31:50
emotions by simply telling their kid to calm down or knock it off or why would
31:55
you do that? Or here's what I would do if I were you.
31:57
While that would technically fit into the regulating strong emotions,
32:00
I really want to start painting a picture again, plugging into my men's emotional
32:05
architects course that ideally there's a way to provide that strong presence
32:09
as in I'm not going anywhere and I'm emotionally calm.
32:12
I'm emotionally consistent. I'm stable. I'm here. You can share your emotions, even your big emotions.
32:17
And I'm going to provide you with some safety while you do so.
32:19
Because some of the stories that we tell ourselves is that, okay,
32:23
if I then am allowed to release my emotions, to let them out,
32:27
then I'm going to have this emotional throttle wide open for the remainder of
32:30
my whole human existence.
32:32
No, in a healthy way, you'll be more than likely able to process your emotions and then move forward.
32:37
This is a developing passion of mine over the last couple of years,
32:40
and I haven't done enough content on this, but I will.
32:42
And it turns out that the more that you don't need others to tell you who you
32:45
are, how you should feel, the more you feel whole and complete.
32:49
And that's the concept of having this solid but flexible sense of self.
32:54
And I want to put a little bit of a math formula in there. I want to help people
32:58
get to this place of maybe we'll call it 90% solid sense of self and will be
33:01
10% open for flexibility.
33:03
So therefore, I can interact with people in the world and they can give me all the feedback they want.
33:07
They can tell me what they think of me, what they think that I am doing wrong, what they appreciate.
33:12
But I'm starting from a place of I'm okay, I'm good.
33:15
So if they say, I don't like the way you did that. Well, I'm okay,
33:18
but tell me about that. I'm going to operate from this place of a 90% solid sense of self.
33:23
But here's the thing. What are the things that you don't like?
33:25
Because I want to be the very best version of me.
33:27
But if I'm operating from this place of having the solid sense of self,
33:31
it is that cliche that's so true.
33:33
If I don't love myself, I can't truly fully love you. Because if I don't love
33:36
myself, then I have to try to figure out a way to get you to love me.
33:40
And so therefore, I will be betraying my own sense of self. And that will most
33:43
likely be in a very immature way.
33:44
It might be in a controlling way. You can have love or you can have control
33:47
in an adult relationship, but not both. And I am opting for love. I will teach love.
33:53
But you have to learn to love yourself first. So the secure attachment that
33:57
a dad can provide, he can provide this emotional safety and consistency, can help a kid.
34:02
We're talking entire generations in your family system. Because if you can help
34:06
a kid take these healthy risks and navigate this broader world beyond the mother-child
34:11
bond, developing confidence and exploring while knowing that there is a solid,
34:15
secure base to return to.
34:17
And I just think these things are so important to dig into. Let me give you
34:19
a couple more concrete examples to show how they support healthy attachment
34:22
development from a dad, this taking of healthy risks.
34:25
So a dad might learn to help his kid navigate challenging playground equipment
34:28
by saying, hey, I see you want to try the big slide. I'm here.
34:31
I am right here if you need me, bud.
34:32
Do you want to climb up by yourself or should we do this first time together?
34:37
Not, hey, get up there. I wasn't scared when I was your age because if we're
34:41
saying, hey, how can I help? I'm here. I have your back.
34:43
I'm right here beside you if you need me. This teaches the kid that it's okay
34:46
to feel both excited and scared about new challenges.
34:49
It is not an all or nothing or black or white thing. And I don't even need to
34:52
look to somebody else to tell me what they think I should do.
34:55
I'm going to say, this is what I think I'm going to do. And you got somebody
34:58
right there to support you.
34:59
That is such an important concept because we do not know what to do with our
35:03
emotions when we're kids.
35:04
They are just bubbling there. And so, as a kid then, when we're told,
35:07
calm down, or why did you do that, or that's not what we do,
35:09
or how do you think that affects me, or any of those things,
35:13
or heaven forbid, hey, look, that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen somebody do.
35:17
If we hear those things, then we're going to eventually feel like,
35:19
man, I don't even know what my emotions are telling me because I know they're wrong.
35:23
It's okay to be both excited and scared about new challenges.
35:26
And when you have that secure attachment with a parent, when they are there for you.
35:31
Then the kid can learn to assess risks and have support. And they can have this
35:36
capacity to face challenges.
35:38
And they, with the secure attachment, can especially right now,
35:41
I'm talking about from a father figure, the kid won't feel pushed beyond their
35:45
comfort zone, but they'll be supported and pushing themselves. It becomes a them thing.
35:49
And in talking about navigating the broader world, imagine a dad taking his
35:52
kid to a busy park or a new environment.
35:54
And then he might say, man, look at all the stuff that's going on here.
35:57
What do you want to explore first.
35:58
And when the child starts to venture out to meet new kids or try new activities,
36:01
the dad will maintain a watchful but not a hovering presence because this will
36:06
help the kid learn to interact with the world beyond their immediate family,
36:08
develop social skills with peers while having parental backup,
36:12
understanding the world is generally safe to explore and not having too much
36:15
anxiety and fear and worry about everything that is happening.
36:19
And I think if you look at that piece of the puzzle, if we are anxious about
36:23
things, that's one of the clearest ways that we project our anxiety onto our
36:27
kids to, hey, watch out, be weary.
36:29
That person, you never know what their angle is. Or I don't know,
36:32
this park looks pretty scary to me. Is that slide safe?
36:35
So we're projecting our anxiety, our discomfort into our kid.
36:39
So now they're going to view the world in a similar way. That might be our issue.
36:43
We might be terrified and have anxiety, but hopefully we're going to go work
36:46
on that and not work it out through our kid.
36:49
Because we want our kid to start to build confidence in their ability to handle new situations.
36:55
Back to that masculine presence that the dad can exhibit by showing up in a
36:59
secure way that can help develop confidence with a secure base.
37:03
I was told of an example recently of a dad at a swimming lesson with his kid,
37:06
and the kid swims a real short distance to him.
37:08
And then the kid ventures a little bit further to swim to the instructor,
37:11
looks back, occasionally sees dad's encouraging smile.
37:13
Dad yells out, hey, you're doing great, bud. I'm watching you. I see you.
37:17
This creates a physical and emotional safety net and the confidence to move
37:20
progressively further from the secure base.
37:22
And it helps the kid understand that independence doesn't mean abandonment.
37:26
I mean, holy cow, that would have been nice to know as a kid, right?
37:29
Independence does not mean abandonment and the knowledge that it's safe to return,
37:33
even if you are feeling overwhelmed, because now you have this secure base where that person,
37:39
your parental figure, they're going to be able to say, Hey, tell me what that,
37:43
tell me what your experience is like. Help me understand what's going on for you. How can I show up?
37:47
Because how often do people say, you know, I got to get my kid out the door
37:50
at 18 or else they're going to want to live on my sofa.
37:52
And I will maintain. I think they need to know, hey, my sofa is always here
37:55
if you need it. Now go venture out.
37:58
The knowledge is it's safe to return if you're feeling overwhelmed, not like I can't go back.
38:02
There's no safety net. And I understand there are going to be some people that
38:05
said, well, it worked for me. But I would say, what's that relationship like
38:09
with your parental figure?
38:10
And it's okay if you are realizing that it's not the ideal relationship that
38:16
I would like, but I'm going to change that with my kid.
38:18
If that is the case, if you want to change that dynamic with your own kid,
38:23
we really do need to be able to self-confront and look at, well,
38:25
what was my experience like? And am I just repeating that?
38:28
I got to figure this out. Because when a kid is told, hey, you're not coming
38:31
back here, that's my parents saying, I got to figure this out on my own.
38:35
That can be really scary.
38:36
And again, what is wrong with having a secure base to operate from?
38:40
But you have to start doing the groundwork early in all of these scenarios.
38:44
So dads need to act as what attachment theorists call a secure base,
38:47
a reliable presence that allows kids to venture out and explore while knowing
38:51
they have somebody to return to for comfort and reassurance.
38:54
And yeah, this balance of supporting independence, but also maintaining connection.
38:58
Independence and connection, independence and connection.
39:00
It's crucial for developing a healthy attachment and confidence in exploring
39:04
the new world. And that is what this world is about.
39:07
It's about going out and exploring and then coming back.
39:10
You can go back and talk about what those experiences are like because those
39:12
experiences then create this internal working model that the kid can carry into
39:16
adulthood, knowing that they are okay, knowing they can take risks,
39:19
knowing they can explore new situations,
39:21
knowing that they can figure out who they are, that they can still maintain
39:23
healthy independence and be connected to others.
39:26
That's what differentiation is all about. It's two of our most innate needs
39:30
to develop connections with others while autonomy, while discovering who we are,
39:36
while learning to become interdependent and differentiated when we naturally
39:41
start from this place of codependence and enmeshment.
39:43
So, when the father attachment goes, shall we say, awry, if the dad is emotionally
39:49
or physically absent or dismissive or inconsistent or emotionally immature,
39:53
then it can create some real specific attachment wounds.
39:55
So for sons, now we're talking about struggling with that masculine identity
39:59
because then a kid might feel uncertain about how to be quote a man without
40:03
having had a positive male role model.
40:05
For example, he might swing between extremes, either becoming overly aggressive
40:09
to prove his masculinity or withdrawing from traditionally masculine activities
40:13
with his friends altogether because he feels inadequate.
40:15
And now look at what that could be in relationships. He might think,
40:18
okay, I don't even know how to be there for my partner because I never saw what that looks like.
40:21
And that can turn into a complete lack of confidence in relationships.
40:26
So imagine a guy in his career who received a promotion.
40:29
So instead of feeling accomplished, he's consumed with imposter syndrome.
40:32
I know that feeling well, constantly thinking, I don't even deserve this.
40:35
Or they're going to figure out that I don't know what I'm doing.
40:39
I can't do this. Because without that consistent.
40:42
Parental figure who showed confidence in their kids' abilities and celebrated
40:46
their achievements, he might struggle to internalize his own success because
40:51
it's still dependent on what other people think.
40:53
And I think it'll also play into difficulty trusting his own judgment because
40:56
a person will eventually start seeking everybody else's opinions for even minor
41:00
decisions like what car to buy, whether to accept a job offer,
41:04
where to move, and what eventually boils down to what should we have for dinner.
41:07
And he might think, well, I need to check with everybody first because I don't
41:10
trust myself to make the right choice because I wasn't allowed to make these decisions on my own.
41:15
And that stems a lot from having a father figure who didn't validate his thinking
41:20
or support his decision-making abilities. And this can also be a mother figure
41:24
as well. But right now we're just talking about the dads.
41:27
And then also having this absentee father figure can lead to challenges with
41:31
emotional vulnerability. Because if you picture a guy who can't cry at his wedding
41:34
or share his fears with his partner because he learned early on that men don't show any emotion.
41:39
So without seeing a father figure open up emotionally, he might think,
41:42
okay, if I show how I really feel, people are going to think less of me.
41:45
And then if we're staying, let's stay here for a minute and talk about for daughters,
41:48
if there's an absent male role model,
41:50
the proverbial dad issues, I mean, I think an easy one is difficulty trusting
41:54
male partners because a woman might consistently expect her partner to disappoint
41:58
or leave her just as her dad did.
42:00
And so when her partner might say, hey, I'll be home at six,
42:03
she might feel intense anxiety, even if he's five minutes late thinking,
42:06
okay, he's got to be lying to me.
42:08
And it can be conscious or subconscious of like I saw my dad do to my mom,
42:12
or I would hear my dad promise to do things and not do them.
42:14
And then what would that lead to? It's probably going to be seeking some male validation.
42:19
And I remember an example where there was a very successful businesswoman who
42:24
she identified that she really still sought approval from her male colleagues
42:28
or supervisors in ways that she did not with female ones.
42:30
In that scenario, she might work twice as hard for a male boss or compromise
42:34
her boundaries I used to please male partners thinking almost this,
42:38
again, it can be happening in the subconscious.
42:40
I need to prove my worth to him, this male figure.
42:44
Maybe I'll be good enough. And not even realizing that. He is not dad.
42:47
Probably realizing that, but not realizing that's what's going on.
42:51
But it can lead to insecurity in romantic relationships as well because a woman
42:55
might constantly test her partner's love through behaviors like creating artificial
42:58
distance or one that I see often, manufacturing crisis to see if he'll chase after her.
43:04
That's one that I see a lot as a marriage therapist. Different examples come
43:07
to mind where a husband is going out of town on business or has something that
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he's going to go do with his friends and there will be a crisis that seems to happen regularly.
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And it's almost like she's subconsciously saying, do you care more about me
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than you do about this business or about your friends.
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And I will find guys that will put themselves in these positions where then
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they feel like they can't go on the business trip or they can't hang out with
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their friends because they're so afraid of the consequences that those will be too negative at home.
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And so they do have to go chase after her, but then it isn't about whatever
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that crisis was because she may be subconsciously thinking, I just need to know
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if he really cares about me because my dad never showed me that I was worth caring about.
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And then if we talk about what this looks like in intimacy, she might become
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either extremely clingy, texting constantly, feeling panic when her partner
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needs alone time, thinking if I let him have space, he will leave just like my dad would.
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Or to completely avoid deep connection, keeping relationships very superficial
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and leaving before she can be left, telling herself that it's safer to not need anybody at all.
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And these patterns, they often play out unconsciously until somebody recognizes
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them through therapy, self-reflection, maybe today listening to a podcast.
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But let me reiterate, the good news of today is that understanding these patterns
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is the very first step toward healing from the patterns.
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Just as these early experiences with dads can create these wounds,
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new experiences and healthy relationships are learning more about how you show
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up differently because of your experiences is the way you start to help repair them.
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So now let's go to the extreme. Let's talk about an emotionally unavailable
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partner plus an anxious mom.
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Actually, I think this is a good time to take a break. We'll pick this up with a part two.
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And in part two, I'm going to go into almost a grid of when you have a healthy,
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let's say a healthy mom and an emotionally distant dad, emotionally distant
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mom, a healthy dad, two emotionally distant parents.
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And we'll talk about how that can play into your adult relationships.
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And then I'm going to go through an article that talks about how you change your attachment style.
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There is plenty coming up on part two.
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It's great to be back. If you have questions or thoughts, I would love your
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questions about attachment styles or anything that you've even heard today,
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taking us out per usual on the Virtual Couch is the wonderful,
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talented Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful.
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And I want you to know that you will be hearing some of Riley Hope's music,
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which is the anthem for waking up the narcissism in the near future,
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It's Not My Job, which is a beautiful song as well.
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Okay, everybody, have an amazing week and we will see you next time.
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Music.