Latest / Strange Stuff Podcast / Episode 237: The Lost Cities

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Episode 237: The Lost Cities · Strange Stuff Podcast

• Andy: Hello everyone, I'm Andy. Mark: Yeah, good morning all. Mark here. Andy: And here we are again with the Strange Stuff Podcast. This seems to be a bit of a habit. Mark: Yes. It does actually. I don't know why. Think of all of the things that one could be doing and I decide to spend an hour with you. Andy: I mean you could be out shoveling snow. Mark: No, no snow to shovel it's all gone nearly. Andy: Well, my weather forecast today said zero degrees with flurries. Yeah. Mark: ⁓ really? Well, you know, it is the end of March. I'm just about to check actually because it'd be bloody... Andy: But it is blinding sunshine outside and clear skies. So I don't know. Mark: We've got 95 % chance of Rain, rain, rain. We don't have, well yeah, Thursday of next week. Yeah, so it's not good, not good. ⁓ dear. So it's amazing what happens in the world. Andy: Yeah, in 24 hours. Mark: In 24 hours, yeah, since we last spoke. Andy: I mean, first of all, your chap from OnlyFans with his 700 million bonus actually died on Friday. You say poor chap, but that legacy that he left behind is nothing to be proud of. Mark: Poor chap, he was only 43. Well, rich chap. I don't know, mean, you know, it's such a double-edged sword, that, no, it's not a double-edged sword, but you know what I mean, all of the predominantly women, and in fact, apparently, it wasn't only porn, there were other things, tutorials and things. Andy: It wasn't started as a porn thing. It was started by two English guys, a father and a son. And it was started as a way of monetizing your skills that you could display and teach to other people, whether it be cooking, ⁓ crafts, or whatever you wanted to show off. And of course, ⁓ as soon as sex workers realized that they could also monetize, Mark: Yes. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy: That's where it all started going Pete Tong and that's when this guy was bought in on board. He was an investor more than anything else. And he was put in charge of the platform, the sex part of it. So, you know, it's, it's kind of. Mark: ⁓ I mean, it was a source of revenue, but apparently it was a bit like, it's a bit like Spotify. You know, if you're in the top 0.1%, you can actually earn a living out of it. But the 99.9 % of other people are sort of taking 20 bucks a month or something. Andy: Yeah. And he was taking 20 % of that. His earnings were in the region of 1.6 million a day or something. Mark: Yeah, No, but I mean, you Yeah, no, but, you know, I say poor chap, you know, he was only 43. He could have put the money to good use or something in the future. I don't know who knows. No, but I'm saying that's right. But anyway, so yes, that was the only fans and it is amazing coincidence. We keep, we keep talking about things and then obviously by coincidence, because we're not tapped into the inner workings. Andy: Yes, but he didn't. Is it a coincidence or have we actually opened a supernatural channel and we control the world? Mark: Yes. What's that gate thing called Stargate? Strange tough podcast Stargate. Andy: Stargate SG1. No, I'm thinking if what happened, what is the situation if we actually, if we talk about something and it actually happens, then we control the world. So. Mark: Yeah. You're right. In our own minds. Yeah, you're right. Andy: Do remember that guy who won the lottery next Friday? No, Mark apparently was involved in a sexual accident where he broke his wrist. Mark: Exactly. And his mate Mark, obviously, bought a ticket together. Strain my wrist. No, but I mean, you know, you can, you can just imagine, sorry, getting onto the geopolitics as usual at the beginning. You can just imagine how desperate Trump is to unwind this situation. Andy: ⁓ ⁓ yeah, now he's negotiating. Mark: Well, apparently it was, he actually used, he didn't say he had been negotiating. He said Kushner and Whitcox had been, had been negotiating unbeknown to the Iranians. So some back channel chat and that gave Trump the pretense to say, ⁓ hostilities are off. Everything's sorted. Andy: Yeah, behind their backs. Until the stock market closes on Friday. And then it's anybody's game. So we'll see what happens. I mean, at the moment, obviously Trump has surrendered. No one is seeing it any other way. He's literally surrendered whilst banging on about how he's won the fucking war. But we'll see what happens on Friday because once the stock markets are closed again, you know, the fucking lunatic will throw his toys out of the pram. Mark: ⁓ Yep. Yep. No, you're right. Yeah. Andy: And we'll see what happens. Mark: Well, talking from some experience in the capital markets. Andy: Unfortunately, what we're recording now doesn't come out until Sunday, so it will have already happened. Mark: It will have all changed. Yeah, you're right. It's all out of date. No, but what I was going to say was, ⁓ uncertainty is always the enemy of the markets, unless you're a hedge fund where you can just literally play volatility. But, ⁓ you can't imagine a more inconsistent position than Donald Trump. literally changes by not only the day, but between morning and the afternoon sometimes. Andy: Yeah, because some idiot gave him access to social media. Mark: ⁓ Andy: Yeah, there should be an age limit both ways. It should be over 18 and ⁓ under 150 because he is just a fucking dribbling fool. Mark: You But now talking about dribbling fools, ⁓ I'm not too sure your brain is functioning as it should be. You have come up with two film recommendations in the last week. The first one was Peaky Blinders. Now to all intents and purposes, that should have been a good movie. I checked it out on Internet Movie Database 6.5 or 6.9. Andy: Uh-huh. What do you mean? Yes. Yes. Did you remember the build up to the film? That's the thing. Mark: Now, I didn't remember the build-up to the film. What are you talking about? The series! Did I watch the end of last series? Andy: You're frozen. Great. Yes. Well then of course it didn't make sense. Mark: Well, it is not a matter of the film didn't make sense. Andy: I told you it was a sequel. ⁓ Mark: Yes, no, but it wasn't that challenging to work out what had come before. What was challenging was firstly the soundtrack. I've never heard a music soundtrack that was firstly so when it penetrates every element of every scene. This noise that they called music was just completely. Andy: Okay, so you didn't enjoy it. And the other one, if you told me you didn't enjoy the Eurovision Song Contest, I'm just giving up. Mark: Now, now the second movie that you recommended, got, honestly, I got, I think I got 30 or 40 minutes into the movie. And I thought, really, I have better things to do with what remaining time I have on this earth than watching the movie Eurovision. Andy: Which movie was this? It wasn't, you see, you need to chill out. You need to turn your brain off and just learn to enjoy things for the sake of enjoying them. Mark: Bye. Yeah, well that's the problem. do. Maybe. Maybe. Andy: The Eurovision Song Contest is one that will be rewatchable for many years. Mark: But was just so there was literally it was cliche after Eurovision cliche. It was just. Andy: Yes. And that's what makes it so great because finally someone in a position to show what the Eurovision Song Contest is really all about actually did it. Mark: I saw up to the scene where the Russian is having his party at his house. So you had that, you had the bearded Wurzburg fellow singing amongst other people actually. Andy: Yes, yes, yes, lots of cameos. Mark: previous. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. So that was a disaster. That was 40 minutes of my life that I'm going to get back. Andy: I mean, for most of them, it's the only job they've had since they won the Eurovision Song Contest, so they were probably quite pleased with it. Mark: So here's a question, actually I've just sort of answered it, of all of the groups that have appeared on Eurovision over the years, for those that weren't stars before they appeared, how many have had successful music careers? Andy: Abba. Mark: I think ABBA was successful before, but even if they weren't, definitely ABBA. Andy: No, certainly weren't worldwide successful. Mark: I have got one other example. They weren't megastars, but they did have a good career out of it, and that was Bucks Fizz. Andy: No, they didn't. They had like three records in the charts and then they went onto TV, presenting for kids programs and shit like that. They definitely weren't successful. Mark: ⁓ did they? There must be more. Did Wurtzberger, the sausage man, did he not have a successful career? It was only a few years ago. No. Andy: Have you seen him much on top of the pops? He's, mean, it's just a novelty show and it's just, you know, it's basically television's version of Pride Week. Mark: I wonder if our listeners, if they're not Swedes, realise how big Eurovision is, certainly in Sweden and I think pretty much in the Nordic countries. I mean it's massive in Sweden. Andy: I think it's only in the Nordic countries and I think it's only because of ABBA in the seventies. I think they're waiting for the second time around, the second coming as it were, because in the UK, I can promise you, they don't even know that people are actually auditioning for it now. They don't even know. Mark: Maybe. No. I think the other thing is, and- Andy: And in fact, in the UK, record companies are begging their non-functioning artists to please enter the Eurovision Song Contest so we can justify paying your fucking contract. And they're all going, no, kiss of death, mate. Mark: Kiss of Death, Eurovision. Andy: It is. It literally is the kiss of death for anyone in the UK to enter that competition. Remember a few years ago, they tried to kickstart it by entering Engelbert Humperdinck. Mark: No point. He's dead! Andy: Yeah, before he died, obviously. Mark: But he even must have been in his 80s. Andy: They tried rejuvenating it in the UK by entering Engelbert. Mark: You mean rejuvenating him? Not rejuvenate... What? They brought... Andy: Well, to get the interest and try and actually get more than nil-pois. And it didn't work. Mark: Did we get zero points? I think we did. Andy: We've had zero points on more than one occasion, I think. Not political at all. Mark: Well, I mean, you know, England can't be that hated in the rest of Europe. Why? do people... mean, other than the fact we turned our backs on the rest of Europe, why? Andy: ⁓ excuse me. But you don't need a reason. It's like, you know, we don't need a reason to hate France. We just do it. Mark: I wouldn't say we hate France. Andy: You see, again, you're not a man of the people. You don't understand what happens in the streets because you never had to throw your shit and piss from a bucket out your upstairs window. Mark: What's that got to do with hating the French? Andy: It's the French's fault that we couldn't have an indoor toilet. Mark: What are you talking about? Andy: I know what I'm talking about and the people with me know what I'm talking about. Mark: The people with you Who invented the toilet Andy: Revolution, brothers. Thomas Crapper. Mark: Thomas Crapper and he was English, wasn't he? So why did the French interrupt the progress of Thomas Crapper inventing the toilet? Andy: He was. Because they taunted him mercilessly. Mark: You Funnily enough, I did see a clip on somewhere the other day about buckets of piss being chucked into the street and it was, do you remember, about 25 years ago they did, BBC did a six-part Pride and Prejudice. Andy: Well, I'll take your word for it. Two things that I would never watch. One, BBC. Two, Pride and Vegadists. Mark: What do mean? don't, haven't you watched Jane Austen movies? Jane Austen? The, one of the classic British literary stars? Andy: Absolutely not. I fucking had to read that fucking drivel while I was at school. I will never ever pick up one of those novels again. Mark: Err, which one did you do? I can't believe they gave you Jane Austen at school. Andy: Little women. Mark: Really? didn't even... well... I came closer to par... Andy: Yep. Yeah, but you've got to remember my reading age was quite advanced. Mark: You Andy: Even now, at 63, my reading age is 64 and a half. Mark: Yeah, exactly. It's not 12 years old. It's 14 and a half years. Andy: I mean, my reading age was in the teens when I was like six. Mark: As a funny aside, I actually, I never passed it, but I came closer to passing my English literature O level than I did my normal O I never passed my English O level. I know that's shocking to the listeners who think generally I'm a very eloquent, voc... and elegant, high vocabulary individual, but in fact I never passed my... Andy: Elegant. Mark: English language O-level, but I did come close to passing the literature. Andy: And is there nobody who's surprised in the room with you now? Mark: ⁓ dear. Either dyslexia didn't help, that's for sure. Andy: I love the way that they made dyslexia so hard to Fucking genius. Mark: Yes, you're right, actually. Anyway, no, funnily enough, I do enjoy a good Jane Austen production. Andy: A bodice ripper. You like a bodice ripper? Did you used to read Barbara Cartland by any chance? I bet you did. I bet you got a whole rack of her bodice rippers. The pink hippopotamus. Mark: were they not? No, no. No, I didn't. No. No, no, it's ⁓ I can't remember the name of the recent sort of set in a similar time, Jane Austen-esque production on Netflix. What was it called? Bridgerton. Andy: Again, never watched it. Mark: So what are you watching? Heavy metal music videos in the evening and Eurovision? Andy: Look, I'm sorry, I can't watch these fucking woke dramas on Netflix. Netflix is the worst for doing a period drama because they introduce all sorts of shit that wasn't in there in the first place and has no place in it. Mark: ⁓ Yeah, that I would probably have to agree with, actually. But it doesn't detract from the entertainment. I tell you what, I'd prefer to watch an episode of Bridgerton than I would just have to sit through that Eurovision movie again. Andy: No, you missed all the best bits because it just gets better and better as it goes on. Mark: Well, maybe I'll watch the last 45 minutes. Andy: Didn't you just love the way the whole boat exploded? Mark: Yeah, but that's exactly it. ⁓ they didn't get invited to the party and then suddenly, poof! You've never been to Iceland, have you? Andy: ⁓ we're number one! No. Mark: Luckily enough when I was working I used to go there quite often. Andy: But now I want to go. Mark: having seen your revision. Andy: Yeah, yeah, I want to go and join in the Eurovision Song Contest for Iceland. Mark: Exactly. No, it's funnily enough Iceland. I actually think it overtook Prague as the stag party destination of Europe going to Reykjavik. Yeah, but it was, you know, it's Andy: Really? Quite expensive. It normally figures quite highly on the charts. ⁓ Mark: Yeah, yeah. And it's I think is the second happiest place in the world to live. Andy: after Finland. Mark: Finland came out number one, Sweden were in at number five, it was... What, because you've never seen a happy Finn? Andy: I find that incredible, to be honest. No, they're always crying. They're always drunk and always crying. Mark: you Andy: It's that idea of happiness. Mark: I can't remember if it was Valtteri Bottas, the Formula One driver, but when he was, I think it was him, did you know that Finland had just been voted the number one happiest country in the world? And he sort of looked to the side quizzically thinking, really? Yes, exactly. That's not the Finland I know. Have you ever been there? Andy: It's a joke. ⁓ Have I? I think I have. think does one of the boats from Stockholm go to Finland? And I have, yes. Mark: Yeah, they go across to Helsinki for an hour. They stop in Helsinki. Andy: I mean, it counts. Mark: Yeah. Did you get off the boat? You have to get off the boat for it to count. Well, again, I used to travel there quite a lot, so I've had a few sauna sessions with beer with various people. Andy: I might have got off the boat. I can't remember, I was quite drunk. Those booze-crews did what they said on the tin. And this chap beer was here, gentlemen, in the sauna. Mark: You It is a strange, is it strange? No, you know, it's reasonably you can, it's a Nordic country basically. But what is Mark, because I work with a few Finns as well, what is absolutely Mark, notable is their hatred of the Russians. Andy: Well then next door neighbors. Mark: Well, and of course the second world war and all of that. ⁓ we obviously used to eat out occasionally with clients. And if one of my one individual who will remain unnamed Finnish guy was in a restaurant, he heard Russian being spoken. He would literally on the way to the loo, push into the guys as he's walking past in the hope that they stand up and say something. Andy: you Mark: He was a bit of a nutter. Hard as nails most Finns, I'll tell you what, and I mean seriously hard as nails. You don't want to get into a street fight with a Finn, that's for sure. Andy: Thank So you used to hang around with hooligans and thugs and you have the damn gall to insult my fucking heritage. Mark: Yeah. Yeah, but we were wearing suit and tie, so it doesn't count. ⁓ dear. Anyway, so yes, I don't know what the hell got us onto that. But yes, any listeners do not listen to Andy's film recommendations. Andy: ⁓ well that's okay then. That's American Psycho Thugs. Absolutely the opposite. Mark: Whereas mine, what did I recommend to you the other day? Fargo, the TV series Fargo, it is a few years old. You must admit you enjoyed that. That's not, that's not, ⁓ woe. Andy: I enjoyed the film, but the series just... It's like all these fucking American series, no offence, but stop after two seasons or three seasons. Don't try and milk it forever, because it's just ridiculous. Storylines go stupid. Mark: I'm watching, I think it's the third season I'm watching with Ewan McGregor. He's the star. And another English guy. There two English guys. Key roles in the production. Andy: Well, we like Ewan McGregor, but only from Trainspotting days, really, once he went Star Wars. Yeah, once he went Star Wars, was... Mark: Yes, we do. He's a biker actually, funny enough, Ewan McGregor. What? His first movie? He must be worth a fortune, Ewan McGregor. He must be one of the wealthiest actors in Hollywood. Ewan McGregor's star. Think of all the mega movies he's been involved with. Andy: Ugh. And he's Scottish so he's definitely never spent any of that money. Mark: That's a bit unkind. He spends it on motorbikes. Ewan McGregor, of course he's Scottish, he's not English at all, he's British. Is Scotland Britain? Andy: I think you'll find if you ask him he'll tell you he's fucking Scottish. Mark: No, it's no good luck, know, absolutely fair enough. I would want to distance myself from being English quite a lot of the time, actually. Andy: especially now. Mark: Why? Why especially now? Andy: Well, because Kirstama, he's fucking allowed the US to use English air bases right at the end. So now he's opened up England to a summer of terror already started, by the way, with the ambulances that were blown up by an Iranian group on Sunday. Mark: ⁓ was it an Iranian group or was it a lone ranger? Andy: They have, they have tamed responsibility, some Iranian linked. So, well done, Kia. I hope you're going to personally pay for those ambulances, you fucking treacherous cunt. Mark: All right. Yeah. think that's a bit strong, Andy. Andy: What you think he should have a GoFundMe instead? Mark: I mean, you know. Andy: He should definitely pay for them and everything I said after that stands He is a traitor Mark: of all the treacherous, all of the treacherous people. What are you talking about? Weren't you, ⁓ no, you have always been against him supporting Trump. Yeah. Now, and you've always been against Dharma. That's right. Andy: always against Starman. Yes, I'm against the pair of them. The pair of them, if they feel so strongly, get on a boat and clear that hormone straight yourselves. Well, I hate them both so much. Mark: But you are a bit of a closet for Irish fan though, aren't you Andy? Andy: ⁓ don't start me off. Don't start me. Anyway, we've gone way too deep. I'd like to next episode. We're not going to discuss Trump at all unless there's a new year button involved. Mark: No, funnily enough, I was thinking of that today, not to even mention his name, and I didn't lie, it lasted about two minutes. Andy: Yeah. So next, next episode is going to be a Trump-free zone. But in the meantime, we're going to lighten up. I think last time we did two episodes on the Manosphere. This time we're going to do an episode going back to our roots. And the episode we're going to talk about today, we're going to talk about fabled lost cities. Mark: ⁓ ⁓ We've done, we've done, what's the most famous one? Antilis Atlantis. We've done that one. Andy: Atlantis. We have, but I think for the sake of continuity, we will briefly talk about it just to remind ourselves, because I know that you've forgotten everything. You've forgotten the name to start with. Antilis. Antilis. But you should be Trump's speechwriter. Mark: Yeah, but I was just having a bit of a Trump syndrome moment. you Andy: So of all the lost cities in history, Atlantis has held the strongest place in the Western imagination. At around 360 years before Brian, the Greek philosopher Plato introduced the idea in two dialogues called Teneas ⁓ and Oriteas, in which he described an advanced island civilization that lay past the pillars of Hercules, which was the Greek name for the Strait of Gibraltar, by the way. According to Plato's account, the god Poseidon founded the island and made his son, Atlas, the king. And it's this story that gave the island its name and connected it to Greek ideas about Atlas and the Atlantic. Mark: Where did the name Antonis come from? His name. Andy: Antonis, who's Antonis? Atlantis, Atlas, Atlantis, the land of Atlas. I'm seriously going to have to get you a referral to some kind of brain specialist because it's turning to mush before our listeners' eyes. Mark: The name of the island? you Yeah, exactly. Andy: So. Now you've made me lose my place. Here we go. Plato described Atlantis as a powerful naval empire that was larger than Libya and together with Asia Minor in ancient Greek geographical terms. And he said that it had conquered parts of Africa and Europe before it launched a disastrous campaign against Athens. Mark: I've got to inform the listeners. Do you know how big Libya is? Andy: Yes, it's quite large. Mark: I would guesstimate that Libya is probably bigger than most of Western Europe, sort of. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, if they were all mushed together, I reckon Libya is probably about the same size. Andy: Well, in Plato's story, the destruction of Atlantis supposedly happened 9,000 years before Solon's visit to Egypt and the gods then destroyed it through earthquakes and floods in a single catastrophic day and night. Importantly, Plato had been a philosopher rather than a historian, and most scholars today interpret the story as an allegory that was designed to explain his political and his moral ideas. Mark: What an allegory. Andy: allegory. It's a story about something that tells you about something else. Mark: All right. And there's another word that's similar to that. Andy: A metaphor? Mark: Well, that's yeah, but that's not similar, is it? Andy: a simile. That's similato a simile. Mark: That is similar. Andy: Now, Professor Thomas Scheller-Johansson has described it as a story invented about a past so that it could express a general truth about how ideal citizens should behave. Plato had previously outlined an ideal state in his earlier work, Republic, and the Atlantis story let him imagine how such a state might fare against a corrupt and aggressive rival. Now, since the story only appears in Timaeus, and the unfinished Chiteas, many modern scholars have treated it as ⁓ didactic fiction rather than a record of a real Bronze Age civilization. Mark: Look, are you trying to test my bloody- I've said how good I was at English and now you're using all these complicated words. Didactic. Where the hell did that come from? Andy: Didactic is something that's written from memory, I think. I'm thinking of the correlation with didactic memory. So I would suggest that didactic means something that was written after he died. But who knows? I could be wrong. I could be wrong, but then again, I'm really wrong. Mark: Right. like the Bible. Now I have to grab my phone to check you fact checking. Andy: No, because then you're going to miss the next bit of the story and then you're going to go, ⁓ Mark: No I'm not. No, I'm very good at dual purpose. Andy: The legend, did not disappear. In 1882, former American congressman Ignatius Donnelly published Atlantis, the Atlanta Deluvian world. Good God. Which, you know, before I had settled on this Lost Cities, I was going to do some Aztec mythology, but you should have seen the names of the gods. Once I got past Quasar Cotil, I ended up with Mixer Total. And then it got ridiculous. like even my advanced reading age was going, no, let's find something else to talk about. We'll get to it one day, but I need to run up to it. So the, the Atlanta Deluvian world, which argued that Atlantis had been a real continent whose inhabitants had settled Europe, Africa, and the Americas. Mark: Really? Alright. Andy: Adonale's book triggered a wave of popular interest that has continued up until today. Since the 19th century, proposed locations for Atlantis have included the Greek island of Santorini, coastal Spain, Antarctica, and the Caribbean and Indonesia. Northern modern plate tectonics, however, has shown that no large landmass could have sunk in the area that Plato described because the ocean floor had spread over time rather than shrunk. As archaeologist Ken Fader has argued, the geology leaves no room for a sunken continent. As such, Atlantis probably never existed anywhere except in Plato's imagination. Mark: that's disappointing. So no revelations to do- ⁓ however. ⁓ I see. Andy: However, ⁓ this is just me. However, never trust the fucking experts. Mark: Hmm. Andy: So we move on from Atlantis. was just a quick round up of Atlantis. The next most famous one is obviously El Dorado, the city of gold. Mark: is it famous? Andy: El Dorado, of course. Mark: Isn't that the name of a corn in a tin? Andy: It's, mean, where do you think the name came from? It's also ⁓ the name of a failed soap opera. Well, I think it was channel four. It was El Dorado. They made the one to rival EastEnders. It was so awful. Mark: What, there was an English TV soap opera called El Dorado? Andy: It was set in Spain and it had like all the same characters from EastEnders, but in Spain. It was awful. Mark: but ran for 20 years. Andy: I watched it religiously because it was so bad. You couldn't believe how bad it was. Mark: You Well now I know where your film recommendations come from. Andy: They had this chick, name, what was her name? think it might have been Pia or P something. And she used to ride horseback and she had these lovely jubbly tights, vests on, and she would just bounce down on the back of the horse. Mark: and that was the subtotal of her contribution to the programme. Andy: It was fantastic television. Mark: The best bit of the whole production. Andy: It was, it was the page three of El Dorado. Mark: When was this? Andy: ⁓ God, I can't remember. Must have been in the 90s, early 90s. Mark: I was still in England. Andy: Yeah, but you would never ever watch Channel 4 for god's sake. Mark: Channel 4. Is that like the BBC with advertisements? Andy: It might. It was the independent channel that first opened up once they deregulated the terrestrial TV. Anyway, El Dorado, over the other side of the Atlantic, a different lost city drew European reporters and explorers for more than two centuries. Mark: Alright. All right. Where is El Dorado supposed to be? Andy: Okay. It's translated to the gilded one in Spanish, and it came from a real indigenous ceremony carried out by the Muisca people on the highlands of present day Columbia. Mark: Columbia, got it. Highlands, yeah, got it. Andy: When a new Muiska chief, who was known as the Zipa, took power, attendants covered him in fine gold dust and carried him by raft to the centre of Lake Gwata- ⁓ God. Mark: Titicata. Say Titicata. No, Lake Titicata. Andy: What a beach. It wasn't Lake Titicata, no, it was Lake Guatavita. And there he plunged into the water as attendants cast gold and precious offerings into the lake. There'll be a lot of diving going on there this summer. To appease a deity that was believed to live beneath its surface. Now, Spanish historian Gonzalo Fernandez de Mark: Yeah, but that sounds better. No one's going to check the atlas. Exactly. Andy: Fiedo y Valdez. Fucking hell. Can you just have two names, please? Mark: Well, you can't blame them for wanting to make the most of their existence on the earth by calling them lots of different names. Andy: Well, he first recorded the story. His name is just Gon from now on, or Gonzo. He first recorded the story in 1541 and he described a great bird who went about continually covered in gold dust. Mark: That sounds like Big Bird. He was golden in colour. On the Muppets? He was yellow, was he, not gold? Andy: And see you later. Big Bird, a bird from Sesame Street. Mark: ⁓ you're right, was Sesame Street. Andy: For the Muiska, gold held spiritual rather than material value because it was used as an offering to the gods. Mark: What was that thing about gold the other day that you said all the gold in the world can fit in an Olympic-sized swimming pool? Yeah, we better not do any fact-checking there on air. Andy: Yes. You would be so disappointed. Spanish conquistadors, however, interpreted the ritual as proof that an entire city of enormous wealth existed somewhere in the South American interior. Because how else could these people keep throwing gold and gems into the lake willy-nilly? So by the mid 16th century, El Dorado had changed from the name of a golden chief into the name of a mythical golden city. And after it had become the idea of a golden kingdom, which was hidden in land. Explorers searched for it across Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, and Brazil. And in 1536, Gonzo led an expedition up the Guadalena River with roughly 800 Spaniards together with indigenous carriers and enslaved Africans. And nearly three quarters of the expedition died during the journey. Mark: That was worthwhile then. Andy: You can imagine it was quite a tough journey because I'm guessing there weren't many highways in those days in the South Americas. He returned in 1569 with only a handful of survivors. Amongst the most famous El Dorado exhibitions were those led by the English soldier Sir Walter Raleigh. Mark: ⁓ we know him! Sort of. Can we do a programme about Sir Walter Raleigh? Now I'm saying, can we do a programme about Sir Walter Raleigh? I like the sound of that. Andy: In 1595... We haven't. Probably. In 1595, Raleigh sailed to Trinidad, captured the Spanish governor, who we're just going to call Antonio. Actually, it's not that bad, Antonio de Berrio, and traveled 400 miles into the Orinoco River basin, the Orinoco flow, if you're Enya, without finding gold. Mark: You Andy: His second exhibition in 1617 ended in disaster. His son, Watt. Mark: What? So what? Andy: What. Not who, what. His son was called what. Mark: Really? as in W-A-T-T. Andy: Yes. He was killed in a clash with Spanish forces at Santotoni and Raleigh's subordinate, Lawrence Kennes, killed himself after he vowed to secure forgiveness from his commander for allowing his son to die. Mark: for the death of the sun. Andy: When Raleigh returned to England, King James I ordered his execution in 1618 because he had disobeyed instructions to avoid conflict with Spain. Mark: Yeah, you don't want to wind up the Spaniards. Andy: Or King James the First, because on the one hand he's printing the fucking Bible and on the other hand he's chopping your head off. Mark: That's right, was. I wonder why he was the one that compiled the modern Bible. King James. Andy: Because he saw it as a license to kill. Mark: Hmm, it is a bit strange that. Andy: The legend also drove repeated colonial attempts to drain Lake Guatavita in the hope of recovering this treasure from the ritual offerings that have been cast into its waters over the years. In 1969, a small gold artifact was discovered at Pasca near Bogota and it confirmed that the ceremony had been real. The Muiska Raft, which was a 19 and a half centimeter gold model that replicated or depicted the Zepa standing on a raft with attendants around him, now sits in Bogota's gold museum as a national treasure. So that's El Dorado. We're still looking for it. Mark: ⁓ that's the end of El Dorado. So, shall I give you my gold statistic? Andy: gone. Mark: I mean. Andy: Come on! You Mark: Hang on, me one second, talk to the camera. Andy: Give me one second to think of an answer that doesn't make you look right. Mark: Well, alright. Well, it's not quite, but I'll tell you what, you are surprisingly close. So if you have an Olympic-sized swimming pool, which is think 50 by, call it 25 meters wide, it's not. But it's easy maths. The pool would only be 10 meters deep. Andy: I know. Mark: So the total mined gold in the world ever that's ever been mined would be in an Olympic sized swimming pool 50 by 25 to a depth of 10 meters. So it's pretty close. Andy: So. Yes doesn't that fucking hurt you inside? Mark: I mean, all of the gold ever mined in the world. I've got them in front of me. 219,000, or it's actually 220,000 metric tons. Andy: and America is holding most of it. Yep, they are holding probably 80 % of the gold in the world. Mark: Is it? I dunno. ⁓ Total reserves? Does that mean the stuff that's still in the ground? Andy: We don't know exactly what's in the ground. Mark: Well, they reckon 64,000 according to Google, whatever it is, AI. Andy: Well, we all know that that doesn't mean anything. You can't see underground. If we could see underground, we wouldn't be drilling and prospecting. Mark: inch. But it is interesting, you know, because. all of the gold that people wear for jewellery and everything. You know I was in the- Andy: But it takes very little to make a chain. It takes nothing to make a ring. Mark: Well. Well only because you buy rings and chains that barely contain any gold. Andy: Well, this is it. you've, if it's like cocaine, a kilo of a Coke from Columbia is worth 10 kilos of Coke by the time it hits America. Mark: is that the cut, what do call it, the dilution ratio? 10 to 1. Andy: cutting. Yes. I don't know because I'm not involved in the cocaine trade. Never have been never will be. So I'm just putting numbers out there. But I'm probably as you know, quite accurate. Mark: You I can actually visualize that pile of gold. Amazing. It is amazing. All right, so we've done Artemis or Atlantis as you call it. We've done El Dorado, which I thought was a brand of canned vegetables. Andy: Amazing. So anyway, let's move on. So now I think we've spoken about this one before, the jungle city of Zed. Mark: I hope this is the one at the top of the earth, where the hole in the top of the earth. Andy: In the early 20th century, I'm not sure. Mark: What was that one called? Yes, where the North Pole is. You fly over the North Pole and there's a whole city going on underneath. Andy: No, this is, we're talking deep in the Amazon here. Mark: Amazon that's Africa, South Africa, South America, Amazon isn't it? I was gonna say not Africa, America, Brazil. Andy: I was going to say wrong continent, but. In the early 20th century, British explorer Colonel Percy Harrison Fawcett Mark: You're suffering the same problem. The explorerer... Andy: Explorer. Mark: Ex-exactly, not Explorer-er. Andy: The explorerer, the explorer-ing, he became obsessed with finding an ancient civilization that he believed existed deep in the Amazonian rainforest. Force, it was born in Torquay, Devon. Well, I'm not surprised. I think I've been there as well, actually. Mark: Yeah! I've been there. This is going to sound a bit dodgy, but when I was a young lad, and my cousin, used to do car washing. We had a little car washing business. Every weekend, I'll tell you what, we were working Saturday and Sunday. We used to have... Andy: Uh-oh. Did you used to do it like wearing denim shorts and get wassopeum right on the windscreen? Mark: No, that's the sort of thing you would have done, Andy. Anyway, we had regular customers, so we were doing this every weekend for the whole year. And my cousin was a little bit older than me. He was one year older than me. And we were doing this up until we were sort of 17, 18. But the first year he got his driving license, we found a company that you could rent a car from. He was 17, which was the driving license age. And we went to Torquay. Was it Torquay? ⁓ shit, I'm telling the wrong story. It was Bournemouth we went to not to Torquay I used No, sorry Torquay was when I used to go with my mum we used to set the Grand Hotel in Torquay they wouldn't let you through the door obviously Andy: I wouldn't want to be allowed in the door if they welcomed you and your mother. Mark: ⁓ I got my stories mixed up. Carry on about Torkey. That's where he came from. Andy: Yes, he was born in 1867 and he trained at the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich before he joined the Royal Geographical Society in 1901 to study surveying and map making. Mark: or even surveying. Andy: Surveying, surveying, same thing. In 1906, the society commissioned him to map the disputed border between Bolivia and Brazil. And over the following decade, he completed seven expeditions through some of the most remote territory on earth. During his travels, Fawcett discovered fragments of pottery together with other artifacts on the jungle floor. And these finds convinced him that a sophisticated urban settlement had once flourished in the Mato Grosso region of Brazil. Mark: I can literally see it on the map. Andy: Fawcett named his hypothetical city Zed and drew extra inspiration because there was none there from a document known as Manuscript 512, which was held in the National Library of Brazil and which supposedly described a Portuguese expedition's discovery of ancient ruins in the province of Braia in 1753. The international attention that had been drawn to Machu Picchu by Hiram Bingham in 1911 strengthened for us its belief that lost cities could indeed be found in the South American wilderness. Mark: Have you ever ventured... You've been to South America, haven't you? Andy: Only as far as Mexico. Mark: Machu Picchu. One of my colleagues went to Machu Picchu with his girlfriend and... Andy: Unfortunately, it's a bit like Mount Everest. It's like one of those bucket list things that people who want to impress other people have to do. Mark: Well, the what's it the remind the remaining memory he had of Machu Picchu, which is a hike. I mean, it's a fair old walk to get there was what was the thing you remember most about it? The whole adventure. Toilet paper. Apparently, the whole route is strewn with toilet paper because there's no there's no port of pot is on the way. Andy: Yeah, I know. Going home. ⁓ good God. This whole, I mean, just the whole, the whole thing just disgusts me. This fucking sheep tourism bollocks. ⁓ yes, we're going to meet you, we're going to wipe our bottoms and leave our paper like so many others before us. Fuck off and do something original. A weekend in Butlins would be preferable. At least you get fed and have a laugh. Mark: I do. Is this it? Did you once ask a girl out to follow you to Machu Picchu for a romantic holiday? And she said, don't be stupid. Andy: How would that be romantic? Wiping your ass and leaving the paper on the fucking side of the road. How is that romantic? Mark: Isn't it funny how the most trivial things really wind you up? Andy: I'm just disappointed by the lack of imagination by the general population of what is fantastic. Mark: Ha But they always have to have Billy Bunter accents with you. Andy: Anyway, can I get on with my story? We're not even close. We only got a fire and fucking Machu Picchu. So after a first attempt in 1920 had been stopped by fever and illness, Fawcett launched his final expedition on the 20th of April in 1925. He departed from the Brazilian city of... Mark: I thought you'd finished. I thought you needed filler to get us to the hour. Andy: Koeba? Mark: Yes, what a coincidence I was literally looking at that dot on the map as we spoke. Andy: with his eldest son, Jack. Mark: ⁓ dear, this doesn't sound good. like, I hope he doesn't have the same destiny as what. Andy: who was age 21. I've got a horrible feeling about this. And along with Jack, he bought his friend Raleigh Rimmel. Now that's not a good omen. Mark: No, that's not a name. That is not a good name. Rami Rimmel. Andy: The three men had with them two Brazilian laborers, two horses, and eight mules, and possibly a couple of lap dancers. Mark: What are you talking about? was only five people on this whole expedition. Andy: and two mules and some horses. Mark: They don't count as people Andy, only in your social circles do you count the mules. Andy: ⁓ It depends how long it's been since you saw a woman. So on the 29th of May, 1925, Fawcett sent a final letter to his wife, Nina, from a place that he called Dead Horse Camp. Mark: I wonder what happened there. Andy: Now, spoilers. I mean, if you got a letter from somewhere called Dead Horse Camp. Mark: It's not going to be buttlands is it? Andy: And he wrote, this is red flag number two, that she should have no fear of failure. After this message, three men were never seen or heard from again. Mark: Hmm. What about the two Brazilian chappies? Andy: No one cared. Mark: Go. Andy: I mean. What was the name of the Sherpas who carried Was' face's gear all the way up to the top of Everest? One Sherpa. You can name one Sherpa. Give me his assistance. Give me, everyone knows Sherpa-tensing, but give me his assistance names. Mark: Sherpa Ten Singh. Well, it's not bad. it. Andy: No, you can't. Nobody cares. Edmund Hillary, Sherpa Tencing, nobody else. Mark: So, this poor chap Jack Raleigh Rimmel Andy: and his friend Raleigh. Mark: ⁓ And what's his face they all pop their clogs Andy: Well, the Royal Geographical Society declared them officially lost in January of 27 and numerous rescue expeditions failed to establish their fate. Various theories have been proposed, including murder by indigenous groups, death by disease, and robbery by renegade soldiers who had been hiding in the jungle after a recent revolution. Mark: So hang on a second, if they died, then what's the evidence they discovered at Lost City? Andy: Nobody said they had. Mark: What were they doing there? This program is about bloody lost cities. Andy: They looking for the lost city of Zed, which they believed was in that area. Mark: ⁓ I see. So it was just all, I say, hearsay, speculation. It's because it's... Andy: The reason it's called the Loft City is because nobody knows where the fuck it is. Mark: No, but you have to have known something existed for it to be lost. You can't lose your car keys if you never had car keys. Andy: But then they become the lost car keys. Mark: No they don't. If you never had them, they're the car keys that never existed, like Zed. Andy: What about your mind? Is it the lost mind? Mark: I definitely had a mind at some stage, that's for sure. Where it is now, God only knows. Andy: So modern archaeology, however, modern archaeology has supported some of Fawcett's ideas. In the years after his disappearance, researchers discovered that the upper Zingu region contained a network of substantial archaeological settlements, including Kuhikugu near the headwaters of the Zingu River instead of a single isolated city. In 2022, LIDAR surveys in the Llanos de Mojos identified major settlements of the Kassarabi culture, which flourished from about 500 to 1400 after Brian. These included sites measuring roughly 147 hectares and 315 hectares, along with pyramids, causeways, reservoirs and large-scale earthworks. Mark: Do you know what a pyramid was called in South America? Andy: ⁓ Pichu? Mark: a cigarette. Andy: ⁓ ziggurat. Ziggurat. Yeah. Such discoveries gave concrete evidence that advanced settlements had indeed existed in the Amazon. Mark: Is it ziggurats? Now this would be a perfect segue into next week's episode, which would have the subject matter that I have been requesting for four years now. Four years, I've been asking. Andy: It's all fake news. It's phony stuff. It didn't happen. Mark: I want you to explain how that masonry work was done in South America. Good. Andy: So the next Lost City is lesser known. I'd not heard of it and it's called... Mark: What do mean? How far down the list are we going? I thought the top three is a perfect... Andy: ⁓ no, I wanted eight. Mark: You can't have eight lost cities. Z wasn't lost because it never existed in the first place. Where are we now? Andy: We're at Emra Iram of the Pillars. Mark: No, this sounds like another pyramid nonsense story about towers under the pyramids. Andy: Well, this is somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula. A city known as Iram of the Pillars has occupied Islamic tradition for more than a thousand years. Mark: Somewhere, somewhere in the Arabian Peninsula. Alright, we'll give the Examic tradition a chance then. Andy: The Quran refers to Iran in Surah Al-Fayyih something and describes how God dealt with the people of I'm going to say Ad, a tribe whose great stature was said to surpass that of people in other lands and which had been punished for corruption and for neglecting the Prophet Hud. According to Islamic tradition, the Ad people had built a magnificent settlement with towering pillars and their King Shadad had become so wealthy and arrogant. that he ignored the Prophet's warnings completely. As a punishment, God sent a devastating sandstorm that lasted eight days and it buried the entire city. This disaster erased all trace of his existence beneath what is now the rub al-khalil or the rub or rub al-kha'i or the empty quarter in English. Mark: But you see, that sort of thing I find quite believable because when you think of the depth of sand in the deserts, I mean, that could easily cover a city. Andy: And this was. Yeah, this is over 650,000 square kilometer expanse of sand dunes that covered the southern third of the Arabian Peninsula. Mark: So hang on, Peninsula, yeah, we know the Arab Peninsula. Alright, so that was actually mentioned in the Quran, was it? Andy: Yes. So for roughly 1400 years, the account of Iran attracted skepticism since historical records outside the Quran contained almost no references to it. In later centuries, Islamic scholars expanded the story. A narration attributed to Karab al Anbar Mark: Aww. Andy: A Jewish rabbi who had converted to Islam in the 7th century described the Iram as a city made of gold and silver and it had pillars of rubies or emeralds. Mark: Hang on a second, I didn't think Islam existed in the seventh century. Andy: Islam is quite old. Mark: Yeah, but it's way after Christianity. Andy: Clearly not. Mark: What do mean? That is the whole thing. It's the final revelation. Andy: 700 years. Mark: Or maybe it was, maybe it was around, maybe it was around 600 AD. Andy: Yes, we are 700 AD at the moment, or actually 800. Anyway, by the 10th century, Persian scholars had added further descriptions of saffron scented gardens and great quantities of pearls. The story reached a Western European audience through the 1001 nights. Mark: Yeah, that's a hundred years later, yeah. Hmm. Andy: which included a spectacular retelling of Iram in night 277 of the Arabic text. Mark: Mm-hmm. Andy: People later nicknamed it the Atlantis of the Sands, and the city drew the attention of explorers such as the British officer Bertram Thomas. In 1930, his bedouin guides showed him wide tracks between desert dunes and told him that they led to a city of legendary treasure that lay beneath the sands. Mark: We know him, don't we? Isn't he an author? Andy: Sounds like a scam to me. But in the early 1990s, a team led by amateur archaeologist and filmmaker Nicholas Clapp announced that it had identified the lost city of Uba, which the team ⁓ equated with IRAM, together with images taken by the Space Shuttle Challenger. And this site was at Sheza in the Daufour province of Oman and it contained pottery walls. Mark: Hang on, hang on, hang hang on, hang on. Space Shuttle Challenger? Andy: Satellite pictures, mate. Mark: But wasn't the Challenger the one that... it was, was it? This was on a previous flight, obviously. Andy: Yeah, obviously they got back to Boots and had the film developed on that occasion. Mark: What did they see? Outlines of a city. Andy: I'm going to tell you. And it contained pottery walls, as well as the remnants of pillars dating to around 1000 BC. Mark: Well there we go. So people have trekked off there on their quad bikes and checked it out have they now? Andy: Well, artefacts indicated that settlement had come into existence during the Bronze Age around 2800 BC, and it appears to have been destroyed when a limestone cavern beneath it collapsed, perhaps between 1 and 200 BC. Academic reaction however was mixed. Several scholars expressed hesitancy because the site was considered too small to qualify as a city. And archaeologist Juris Zurins preferred the view that Iram had been a region rather than a single settlement. More recently, Safatic inscriptions that mention both Iram and Ad were found at Wadi Rum in Jordan, which have made efforts to pinpoint the city's location even harder. So still no closer. Mark: Yeah, but at least it sounds more feasible than Atlantis. Andy: I don't know. think Atlantis, I have high hopes for Atlantis coming out of nowhere. Mark: Well, good luck on that. Andy: So we'll on. Mark: Because a lot was going on in those days, wasn't it, in that area? Andy: Yeah, considering, well, I mean, there's a lot going on today in those areas. Mark: Yeah, for all the wrong reasons, but wasn't that basically where humans sort of first civilization started? in the Arabic Peninsula area Jordan Egypt Israel Syria Libya wasn't that where it all kicked off Andy: I think the end of civilization is Israel. Mark: Bye. Anyway, so what was that one called? Era? Eram? Andy: Anyway, moving on. Eram or Iram. So we're moving on to Thule. Thule and the Edge of the Ancient World. And this is around 330 to 320 B. Brian, a Greek explorer named Pythias. Mark: I have to explorer you have a you're really you're nearly as bad as me no you said a greek explorer Andy: I said a Greek explorer. Mark: Playback the tape? That's the good thing about podcasts, you can actually check. Andy: I will check because you're pissing me off. A Greek explorer named Pythias sailed north from his home city of Messalia, modern day Marseille, and returned with an extraordinary account of a distant Northern land that he called Thule. Pythias recorded his voyage in a work titled On the Ocean. Mark: you Andy: which is a strange title for a book. That specific written work has since been lost entirely, not surprisingly, probably left on the sun lounger. Which means that everything known about Thule has come from later Greek and Roman writers who quoted or disputed his claims. Mark: Indeed. ⁓ dear. ⁓ dear. Andy: Now, Pytheus himself had been a scientist and a navigator with astronomical knowledge. And he set out in search of amber plus tin or gold, all of which were valuable trading goods for the Greek colony of Massalia. After he had mapped the coastline of Britain and had completely circumnavigated the islands, Pythias continued north into waters that no Greek had previously entered. According to the historian Polybius, who wrote around 140 BC, Pythius described the region in which there was no proper separation between land and sea or air. Instead, he described a mixture of all three that had the consistency of a jellyfish and in which one could neither walk nor sail. Pythius reported that fuel This is the one you were thinking of. They sail north of Britain and that during the summer solstice, the sun barely set. Mark: Mm-hmm. Iceland. Andy: He also described the inhabitants as humble farmers with fair complexions and light blonde hair who lived Mark: Now that's very interesting you say that because the one characteristic of a lot of Icelanders, and if you go to Iceland you'll notice it, is how pale some of them are. Not only their hair being light blonde, etc, but their faces being white as if they've never seen the sun. Andy: Yeah, because if they go out in the sun to get a tan, they freeze to death. Mark: I mean seriously, that is a characteristic of us Icelanders that I remember, how many of them look so pale. Andy: Fair complexions and light blonde hair who lived on millet, herbs, fruit and roots. Since the people reportedly made drinks from grain and honey, they appeared to have practiced some form of agriculture in an extremely northern climate. Pytheus' claims drew immediate doubts because both Polybius and the geographer Schrabo accused Pytheus of dishonesty. and said that he had misled readers with fanciful stories because the area he described was considered far, far too north for human habitation. Strabo wrote that the northern limits of habitable earth lay well south of the place where Pythias placed Thule, and he dismissed the account as an exaggeration. However, Roman writers proved more receptive. Tacitus mentioned that a Roman flea had sighted Thule past the Orkney Islands and Pinnae the Elder stated that there were no nights at all there during the summer months. Around 37 BC, the Roman poet Virgil coined the famous phrase, Ultima Thule, meaning the farthest land, which turned Thule into a metaphor for the edge of the known world. Mark: They're obviously describing Iceland. I mean, just look at it on the map, where you can't see it because you don't have a map in front of you. So they're describing Iceland. This is not a lost world. Andy: Are they? I have the entirety of the flat earth mapped in my head. Mark: Yes, exactly. Andy: Since Pytheas's original text has been lost, identifying the actual location of Thule has proved impossible to settle. Mark: No, I've solved this mystery. Andy: According to you. Mark: No, it's done. It's a done deal. Andy: Proposed locations have included Iceland, Norway, the Faroe Islands, Shetland, and the Norwegian island of Sinola, which a study by the Technical University of Berlin identifies as a strong contender. Mark: Thank you. Yes. Faroe Islands You are terrible they don't all sound like that Andy: to the Ancient Greek and Roman maps. Mark: You are ridiculous. I mean, it's so schoolboy how it gives us such entertainment to pretend to be German soldiers every time we just think speak German and it's got to be Handyshawk, Handyhawk, Schnell, Schnell. Andy: So Pythius' descriptions of the midnight sun, impassable slushy ice and thick fog suggest that he might have travelled as far as the Arctic Circle. Indeed, we're left here, where I live. Mark: Er, hang on a second, you are... just south of the Arctic Circle, aren't you? How far is it from you? Andy: I am, yeah. It's about 100 miles. Mark: 100 Swedish miles? No, can't be 100 English miles. All right, so 160k. And have you been? Andy: No, who the hell is this? Why would why? Mark: Well just to say, have you been into the Arctic before? But what isn't that worth doing? You're 160km away just to say I've been to the Arctic. Andy: My scooter has a maximum range of 70. Mark: Yeah, you can take a rest on route. can stay overnight. be nice little adventure for you. Actually, that would be an adventure for you, Andy, to take your scooter to the Arctic Circle. Andy: you a nippy at the moment. Mark: That would make a good podcast my journey north. Andy: I would end up like Edmund Hillary just going outside for a minute. Mark: I think you should do that. Andy: I bet you do. So you could inherit my podcast. Mark: I might join you. I'll be in the car. Andy: And we'll both, they will both disappear without a trace. Like force it. So Oxford professor Barry Cunliffe, one of the leading scholars of the voyage, has favoured Iceland, like you, as the most plausible identification. of fuel the edge of the world. Mark: ⁓ It does feel a bit like the edge of the world when you get there, actually, Iceland. It's pretty barren. I mean, obviously there's no trees above the tree line. And the other thing is everything's black because of the volcanic element to the creation of it. So you have grassy knolls and things, a lot of little horses, Icelandic horse, lot of horses. Andy: ⁓ so if we, if we got Trump to do a state visit to Iceland, there's plenty of opportunities for him to be snipered from grassy knolls. Mark: Because you have this orange beacon standing up against the black background. Andy: Well, no, you've got the grassy knolls. The grassy knolls played headling in JFK, didn't they? Mark: ⁓ the grass, grassy nut. That's right yeah. Andy: So we're moving on. We're going to, I know, but we're going to move on to Russia and a lost city called Kittes, which is Russia's underwater holy city. Mark: is going to be a challenge not talking about Trump. I think we've run out of time for this, haven't we? We need to do a double-ender two-parter. Andy: No, we're fine. This is entertaining. Mark: We're going to Russia. Russia's an enormous place. There could be 20 stories in Russia. Andy: We'll carry on. We'll carry on for now. We'll carry on for now. And if we have to do a part two, we'll do it after this one. We'll see how you feel. So I wouldn't want to stress you out. mean, I know you've got so much other stuff to be doing. Mark: I've peaked at identifying Iceland. I think I've done a very good job. you Andy: So on the shores of Lake Svetoya, which was a nearly perfectly oval lake in the Nizhny Novgorod Oblast of central Russia, a very different lost city legend has continued for centuries. According to the story, Grand Prince George I of Vladimir founded two cities in the early 13th century. Mark: Where? Andy: One... These names... One was Mali Kitej or Little Kitej on the Volga River near present-day Krasmy Koym or Colm. The other was Bulshoi Kitej or Greater Kitej on the shores of Lake Svetloya in the forested interior. Now Greater Mark: That... I've learned something. Bolshoi means great. Andy: Well, the icon. greater. With a great ballet. Mark: So the Bolshoi Ballet Well I've learned something on this podcast again today. Andy: Imagine, you learn that all the gold in the world... Mark: Yeah, that was right actually. Well, it wasn't right, but was pretty close to the truth. But more interesting that Bolshoy means greater, does it? Or great in Russian. All right. Andy: Yes. So Greater Kitege had been established as a monastic settlement filled with white stone churches together with golden domed cathedrals and boyar palaces. And thick forest had hidden its location quite deliberately. Apparently people could reach it only by secret paths. After Batu Khan, founder of the Golden Horde, had conquered much of the Russian lands in the late 1230s. He heard of Kitezh and ordered his army to advance towards it. Now the Mongols first attacked and captured Mali-Katezh and this forced Prince Gregory to retreat through the forest towards the larger settlement. Batu Khan ordered his men to interrogate and torture Russian prisoners and one captive eventually betrayed the secret paths that led to Lake Svetlaya. When the Mongol army arrived, at the walls of Bolshoi Kitezh, it found a city with no fortifications and no armed defenders. The citizens had engaged in fervent prayer instead of preparing for battle. And when the Mongols rushed forward to attack, fountains of water burst from the ground around the city. According to the legend, the attackers watched in dismay as the entire settlement sank beneath the waters of the new lake. The last visible sight was the golden dome of the cathedral and the cross at its peak as they both disappeared below the surface. Mark: Mmm. Andy: The first written reference to Kitezh appeared in the anonymous Kitezh Chronicle, a late 18th century text that probably originated among the old believers, Russian Orthodox dissenters who separated from the official church after the reforms of 1666. Importantly, the chronicle doesn't state that the city disappeared into the lake, it says instead that the city suddenly ceased to exist after destruction in war. The old believers later expanded the version in which the city lay beneath the water because they were drawn to the idea of a hidden sacred community where the righteous lived in prayer and where sinful outsiders could not enter. Local tradition holds that only those who are pure in heart and soul can find Kitej, and that on calm days the sound of chiming bells and singing can be heard rising from beneath the lake's surface. In 1968, archaeologists Mark Baranov and Tatiana Makarova conducted a thorough investigation of Lake Svetloya. They examined the shoreline and used divers to explore the lake bottom, and they found no artifacts older than the 19th century. Baranov proposed that it was a meteorite impact that had originally formed the lake. roughly 2000 years earlier, and that a shallower shelf that covered most of the lake bottom had formed about 800 years ago, which roughly matched the period of Batu Khan's invasion. In 2011, the Vetluski archaeological expedition uncovered traces of a medieval settlement on the hills beside the lake, including thousands of pottery shards plus fragments of iron knives and pieces of harness. Archaeologist Evgeny Chetatakov suggested that the original settlement had probably been small, perhaps a single homestead even, that housed 10 to 15 people, and that a landslide may have carried part of it into the lake, and this may have formed the basis of the disappearance legend. Composer Nikolai Korsakov made the story famous in his opera The legend of the invisible city of Kitech, of which you're familiar with I would imagine as one of your nursery rhymes from your youth. Mark: I've seen it many times. Andy: and the Maiden Feveronia, which premiered at the Marinsky Theatre in St. Petersburg on the 7th of February 1907. The city still attracts pilgrims to Lake Svetlaya and the path to the water is still known locally as the path of Batu. Mark: Hmm. I mean, these sort of things, there's probably hundreds of sort of lost towns, but they don't... I mean, this is a lost town, isn't it? It's not really a lost city. Andy: The legend is of a lost city. Mark: Yeah, but we've described it. The only archaeologist who got involved said it might be just a single house that got swept into the lake in a landslide. It's not quite the same as Atlantis, is it? I mean, let's be honest. Andy: Well, I have another one in the Libyan desert and the Nile Valley. Mark: Why didn't you do that contemporaneously with the other Arabian Peninsula story? Andy: That's how I roll. Mark: It's not. It's got nothing to do with you. Andy: If I do two side by side, it becomes a bit of a metropolis, doesn't it? It's like, how can you not? Mark: Alright, do the one in Libya then. And it better not be just a sing- Next you'll be talking about a house that fell down, the lost city. Andy: There was a man with a tent. Mark: Yes, exactly. Some Bedouin tent got covered in sand and that's the lost city of Arabia. Andy: This is the lost city of Zerzoura. In the Western Sahara, somewhere between the Nile Valley and the Libyan desert, Arabic manuscripts from the 13th century describe a hidden oasis city called Zerzoura. Mark: Hang on a second. Libya's nowhere near the bloody Nile, you idiot. Andy: The Nile Valley. Mark: What, you got the whole of Egypt in the way? The Nile is in Egypt. Andy: and then we'll able to tell. Mark: Alright carry on, I'm doubting the veracity of this story right from the word go, but anyway... Andy: You're hearing it from the horse's mouth. There's no veracity to be doubted. People knew it, and here's your proof. People knew it as the oasis of little birds. So there you go. And they described it as white as a dove. So Azura was said to contain great treasures guarded by a sleeping king and queen. Mark: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, horse. Horse's mouth. ⁓ it was a. Well that's not very useful is it if they're both asleep? Andy: They'd probably wake up if you tried to steal their crowns. The fullest early description appeared in the Kitab al-Qanuz or the Book of Hidden Pearls, a lost 15th century Arabic manuscript attributed to an anonymous author. It instructed readers to follow a valley to the city's gate, where they would find a carved bird that held a key in its beak that would unlock the entrance. According to the text, Black giants also guarded the city and prevented people from entering or leaving. Some scholars believe that this detail might refer to the Tibu people, nomadic inhabitants of Chad and Libya, whose ancestors raided Oasis across the Sahara. The first European reference to Zerzura appeared in 1835 when the English Egyptologist John Gardner Wilkinson reported that an Arab who was searching for a lost camel, see me camel mate. Anyone see me camel? had found an oasis five or six days west. He was looking for his lost camel. Anyone see me camel? Mark: Sorry, sorry. a bloke searching for a lost camel. This is just... talk about scraping the bottom of the bloody sand pit. mean seriously. He knew a bloke who was out looking for a lost camel. Andy: ⁓ you would go look, it's like, it's the same as, I'm sure I left Vicaria last night. Mark: I think you should cut your losses and just end it now. Seriously, thanks for listening everybody. Andy: Shut up, he's looking for his camel. And he'd found an oasis five or six days west of the road to Falafra and that it contained palms, springs and ruins of an uncertain date. Wilkinson's account, hello mate, I've just been joined by Reggie. Mark: ⁓ well that means he's going to press all the wrong buttons. Andy: He quite likely will. What do want? You can't walk on the key. No, you can't walk on the keyboard. ⁓ kissy kissy then. Mark: This is embarrassing for all our listeners listening to you making romantic noises towards your cat. Andy: Well he's gonna want sex with me later. I might as well pretend I'm up for it. So Wilkinson's account was considered credible because later explorers successfully located several other oases that he had mentioned in the same work. During the 1920s and the 1930s, a new generation of European explorers turned its attention to the Sahara's uncharted interior. The British explorer Ralph Bagnold And the Hungarian aviator, László Almázy, led a joint expedition from 1929 to 1930 in Ford Model A trucks and searched the desert for Zázura. In 1932, the Almázy-Patrick Clayton expedition used reconnaissance flight. Can you not sit in front of my notes? used reconnaissance flights to find two valleys in the Gif Kibar plateau and in the following year, Almazie found a third wadi that contained rain-fed oases in the remote desert. Now whether these wadis were the legendary Zerzuza proved contentious. Bagnold considered Zerzura a general legend that no single discovery could solve and he wrote that it was one of many names given to fabulous cities that the Sahara had created in the minds of people to whom it was barely accessible. Al Marci later became the inspiration for Merkel on Dutchess 1992 novel, The English Patient. I'm sure you've seen that. Mark: Well, I'll tell you why I've seen it. Kristin Scott Thomas. Andy: ⁓ and you, you accuse me of some pervy sadness. She also likes ladies, so what's the point? Mark: What do mean? That is a sophisticated lady, Seriously. What are you talking about? don't know. Kristen Stockton. ⁓ no, is that her name actually in the English patient or am I completely fusing it with another actress? Andy: I don't know because I've never seen the English patient. Mark: No, no, no, no, no. No, it's me who's got the name wrong, and you're right. She, I think, is a lesbian, but I think ⁓ the other one is happily married with lots of children. Andy: So either way, you're not getting it. Mark: Hang on, can you carry on? You've refreshed my excitement at watching the English patient again. Andy: So anyway, he continued to believe that the Wadi's were tied to the ancient legend. He held this view, especially after he had found prehistoric cave paintings in the Gefkiba that depicted swimmers and suggested that the region had once been fertile and well watered thousands of years before the Sahara turned into a desert. Mark: It was Kristin Scott Thomas. Andy: That's what you said. Yeah. Mark: ⁓ is it? Andy: After their return in 1930, the people involved in the search for Zerzura founded the Zerzura Club in a bar in Wadi Hafa, and many of its members later became officers in the British Army during the Second World War. Mark: Jolly good chat. Andy: Bangold later created the Long Range Desert Group, which collected intelligence behind enemy lines in North Africa. Al-Mazi worked for the Germans, and he guided spies through the desert towards Cairo. As a lost city, Zazoura is particularly strange because the Sahara climate had changed so drastically over the millennia. Satellite imagery reveals ancient riverbeds together with geological formations beneath the sand, and these findings confirm that the desert once supported communities and agriculture. So if Zuzura existed as a real settlement, it may have thrived during one of those Sahara wetter periods and then gradually disappeared under encroaching sand as the climate dried out. Whether it had been a single city, a network of oasis settlements, or a myth that grew from travelers' tales about scattered desert refuges, the white city of the Sahara has never been identified with certainty. and the sands still conceal whatever may lie beneath them. Mark: It poses an interesting question. When were the deserts wet? When was the last time in history that the deserts were wet? Like fertile. Andy: I can't give you a date on that off the top of my head. Mark: No, no, no, I'm not expecting an answer. It was the opposite of a rhetorical... It's a question where you don't expect an answer. Andy: Probably a thousand nine hundred years ago. Mark: just pulling numbers. Andy: One and a half million. I'm sticking on one and a half million. Mark: You were the one that mentioned it previous wet periods. Andy: Yes, but it had previous WebP, we know this. Mark: Speaking of which, did you know that Death Valley came in bloom this year? Death Valley in America. Andy: and that's unusual because... Mark: Well, because it doesn't often have rainfall, but this year it did have rainfall and there was a beautiful carpet of flowers. Just as an aside. To not so dead. Exactly, not so dead valley. So these lost cities are everywhere, but you know, the ones you're talking about most recently, they're sort of all understandable. You know, there was a city got lost in the the sands. Andy: So do they change the Life Valley. Yes, but the legends that they're built from gold and silver is what drives people to search for them. Mark: Yeah, but that's just looking for cheap labor. Andy: Yep, look, one day they will discover a city. It's like the Nigerian prince who wants to use your bank account to hide his millions. One day it will be true. Mark: yeah. Anyway, well done. That is quite interesting, but you know... Andy: So you don't want my final three. Mark: Final three? Andy: We've only done seven, I 10. How long have we been going on for? Okay, well, I'll let you off. Okay, well, we'll call that it for today. Mark: You said eight. An hour and 34 minutes. was letting the listeners go, not me, the poor listeners who there is again to be starting to get hot. Andy: Yes, I mean, if you behaved like a grown up, we probably would have got through them. Instead of giggling, instead of giggling every time I do a bloody accent. Mark: If I behaved like a grown-up I wouldn't be on the bloody podcast. You Andy: Okay. Well, we'll call that it for today. ⁓ that's our lost cities. We'll come back and do another episode. I'm sure at some point because I'm running out of In the meantime, thanks for listening. Have yourselves a great week and remember next time we're going to try and avoid anything tromponian. Now is this bearing in mind, this is a Sunday episode. So Mark: Yeah, yeah. You Yep, you're right. It's going to be a Trump-free. Andy: The next Sunday episode is the one we're going to try and avoid Trump. So we can still do Trump for the Wednesday episode, which will cover what happens this weekend. Okay. Okay. We'll sort that out. So, uh, yeah, thanks for listening. Join us again on Wednesday and also next Sunday when we can do this whole load of nonsense again. Mark: Yep. Yeah, fair enough. Alright. You Andy: If you are not a member of our Patreon, you are missing out because you're missing two extra episodes a week, as if this one wasn't enough. And you can join us at patreon.com backslash strange stuff podcast. And yeah, have yourself a strange week. Go looking for lost cities. And if you find one made of silver and gold, you can contact me at strange stuff podcast at gmail.com and me and you will make a little dealy poo. Mark: Why is it it's always me and you? What about me? I'm the partner in this operation. Andy: As soon as I discover a city made of silver and gold, are dust. You're in my rear view mirror as I speed away in my Ferrari 360. Mark: you 360 proves how out of date you are. Andy: I'm surprised that's even a Ferrari model number. Mark: It is actually funny enough, it is a 360, it came after the 355, funnily enough. Yep, alrighty. Andy: Well, there you go. Okay. So thanks for joining. We'll see you same time, same place. And hopefully on Wednesday, bye. Can you get out of my way cat? I can't see my button to press stop. Thank you. Bye bye. Mark: Cheerio.