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The Things that Destroy Your Emotional Health as a Leader · Church Staff Book Club

• Jonathan Malm: eventually unawareness will become destructive. Hey, welcome back to the church staff book club. My name is Jonathan Malm. I'm Jason Young. And we are now on to our second book of the podcast. Yes, we are. Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero. Jason, this is a book that you recommended for us for our next one. You read it. I haven't read this book. I I read the first chapter in preparation for this podcast, right? But What did you love about this book? What made you wanna pitch it to me so much? Yeah, I think in the world of leadership and church ministry, we talk about church ministry and all the stuff that we're doing, which is not a bad thing. The one thing I never heard about in undergrad, grad school, and I was introduced to this book and I forget what's doctoral program, but nobody talks about the emotional healthiness of a leader. And so I came across this book and I'm like, ⁓ this is it. And so I think this book can be really helpful to leaders in the church world, do the church ministry stuff, but let's talk about what lies beneath that could actually help make things better. I think there is this reality and this is something I've been guilty of is that we help other people become emotionally healthy as leaders, but we don't worry about ourselves. It's like, it's like, I mean, it would be like the servant, right? Because we're so focused on serving in the church, right? We would rather serve other people. I'm gonna serve them dinner, serve them dinner, and we never eat ourselves, right? Not eat ourselves, but eat for ourselves, right? And so this book, feel like is really good. I was excited about it because I feel like there are a lot of people that maybe are working under unhealthy leaders, emotionally unhealthy leaders, and they're like, is there anything that I can do from underneath them or what can I do to survive? whenever maybe they're creating an unhealthy environment for us. So that's what I was excited about whenever I saw this book. And I do think that this dives into it ⁓ pretty well. So this podcast, whether you read the book, whether you don't read the book, our hope is that we can learn together, right? We want to be able to, know, there's more that happens whenever other people bring perspectives and ideas into the book than just if we read for ourselves. So that's our goal with this. In this first chapter, especially set up kind of what unhealthy looks like, think really well. Jason, you were talking about some of the four things when we were prepping for this, that the unhealthy kind of behaviors that like the hallmarks of unhealthy leadership. Do you wanna talk about those? Yeah, I mean, when you think context, maybe you're listening, watching this right now you're like, all right, how did Jonathan and Jason get here? How did the writer, how did Peter get here? Often calls himself Pete, people call him Pete. So how did Pete get here? And think about this, the context is, He was very well-educated. had, I think it was almost a decade ⁓ of experience in the church world. He's leading a church. And in the introduction he set up, he has these moments, but the one specific that we're talking about is he realizes that he is emotionally unhealthy, meaning he, and or you or myself, live in a continuous state of emotional and spiritual deficit. What does it mean? Well, it goes back to what Jonathan said. You're giving out more than you have on the inside, right? And we'll unpack that in the coming weeks. But specifically in this chapter, he highlights four characteristics that actually show this to be true. So he talks about low self-awareness. He talks about, ⁓ which this one we all understand, prioritize ministry over marriage, or if you're single, right? Or singleness. Which would be like actually pursuing someone potentially or. just focusing on who you want to grow to be if you eventually get married, right? Yeah, yeah. There's this obsession to like ministry, ministry, ministry. And we forget that there are things in our personal lives that are ministry related, not just the work of inside the church. The third characteristic he talks about is ⁓ doing too much for God, which even saying that out loud, you're like, what? I thought that we're supposed to do a lot. Well, it's more activity than the relationship can sustain. we'll talk about. what that means and then failing to work in this one, man, this one. This is probably my- rather. Yeah, this is- feeling to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the fourth characteristic, which man, this is the one I hear people struggle with the most is failing to practice a Sabbath. Yeah. Failing to, you know. So anyways, we'll unpack that, but those are the four characteristics he talked about that reveal the very beginning what being emotionally unhealthy as a leader looks like. I thought it was interesting that he compared the emotional deficit, meaning you're giving out more than you have, right? That it leads to lack of self-awareness. Which is very interesting, because I think that, you know, I kind of struggle almost to like make that comparison, because like, I will snap at my kids. There are times in my life where I am emotionally unhealthy, right? Like financial pressures are happening. I see the the stack of things. ⁓ I get the email that comes in that just wrecks my day, right? And I find myself being short with my son or with my wife or someone, right? And I hopefully am aware in that moment, like, what's going on? Like I'm trying, I've tried to practice self-awareness, but I thought it was interesting that he was like that you do not realize what you're doing to other people, what you're bringing to the table. I thought that was interesting. Yeah, and when you think about self-awareness, It gets seeded in a bigger conversation. We won't unpack this, but self-awareness gets seeded inside of emotional intelligence. Okay. Emotional intelligence by definition is my ability to recognize, understand and manage my own emotions and kind of read the room and see the emotions and ⁓ navigate relationships well. Okay. So that's kind of the emotional intelligence. Specifically, self-awareness sits inside of that. it's, like to think of the analogy this way. Self-awareness is a mirror. versus binoculars. Binoculars, which is what people are great at in leadership world, we're great at this. We hold them up, we look at everybody out there, it brings them closer and we can see what they need or pick them apart or judge them, which I know nobody does here, but let's just talk, just pretend versus the mirror that when I hold it up, there's nobody else in it but me. Or it shows us in context with other people. It shows how we're relating to other people and what we're surrounded by, I would say. Yeah, yeah. What people are not great at doing is looking internally. So when you think about self-awareness, it's really, you don't know what's going on on the inside. You aren't paying attention to feelings. You're not paying attention to stress signals. You might not understand the deeper why behind behaviors and reactions and catching yourself in those moments or catching yourself as they bubble up to the surface. John, let me ask you a question. Has there ever been a moment in your leadership where you realized in hindsight, which is typically right, that's why it's like, oh, 2020 is like, you know, what you see behind us is so much easier. But have you ever realized in hindsight that you were maybe emotionally unaware in a particular situation? It's usually whenever my wife is with me and she- She decompresses or whatever we debrief when we debrief from the situation. He was like, do you realize what was going on there? And I'm like, I had no idea. I mean, this is not a leadership thing. This is something that happened recently where ⁓ we were visiting somewhere regularly and this guy kept saying, he kept talking to me. He's like, ⁓ what did you think about this? What did you think about that? And every week it was a new thing. Finally, my wife was like, I've never seen someone want to be so much your friend. Like I've never seen like so obvious that they wanna be your friend and you're blowing them off. And I'm like, wait, what? I would not blow off someone who wants to be my friend. Cause I wanna be friends with everyone. And I realized I missed all the signals. missed all the things that should have been aware. I should have been self-aware or aware of the situation emotionally intelligent to realize, ⁓ this person was putting themselves out there and I was swatting them down. ⁓ Maybe because I was so much in my own head, maybe because like, don't know why, but that was a moment that happened. And it's interesting, I feel like, you know, one of the benefits of counseling is that they help you see yourself from the outside. I found that, you know, whenever someone comes to me with a problem, when my wife comes to me with a problem or a friend, it's really easy for me to see the situation clearly and say, ⁓ you just need to do this. Isn't that obvious? I can't do that for myself as much. That's the reality of like, it is really hard to see yourself from an outside perspective. That's part of the benefit of working in a team. That's part of the benefit of going to counseling. But I think maybe what this comes down to, this lack of self-awareness would be that we don't receive from other people that mirror that they can provide for us because we become defensive or because we become so, maybe so. that we don't listen to people or that we don't even like take time to evaluate what they're saying. I think that's maybe what kind of creates that lack of self-awareness. So here's my question. How do you become, cause this is a question I, anytime I read a book, I kind of do like devil's advocate when I read it. I'm like, well, okay, that's a great idea, but how do you do this? How do you become self-aware? Like really, if, okay, so yes, you get emotionally healthy, but even when I'm in an emotionally healthy state, I don't know that I'm necessarily the best at being self-aware. ⁓ Again, I'm aware for other people, but not necessarily for myself. Well, I don't know. That's something I struggle with. Maybe we can talk that out. Yeah. Yeah. That could be an episode or heck of series in and of itself. So I like to tell people, I do a lot of work in emotional intelligence. And so this one aspect of emotional intelligence being self-awareness, you cannot become self-aware by yourself. Huh? That's interesting. Yeah. what's interesting- agree with that. I agree with that because it is like, cannot, as hard as I try, I have a hard time. Even when it comes to like marketing, I talk to people all the time, I'm like, you just need to market yourself. They're like, I can't market myself. I'm a marketer, that's my business, but I can't market myself. Like there's a reality of like something about us being too close to the problem keeps us blind. Yeah, so here's what's interesting about self-awareness. So I do, like I said, a of work in the space. Statistically, 95, this is hilarious. 95 % have statistics. You don't have chat GPT open, you literally just have these in your brain by the way. Yeah, yeah. Maybe this, I'm giving you a sneak peek of what's in here, so it's probably- Just numbers going around. This is guy do, right? I don't know, I don't do, don't just, anyways. What's interesting is 95 % of people statistically think they're self-aware, 95%. The reality 10 to 15 % of people actually are self-aware. That's a massive, have 80 to an 85 % Delta between who think they are and who actually are. Here's, this may be interesting because you say, all right, well, how does self-awareness, does it really make a big difference? What we see is organizations, churches, company, doesn't matter that have a higher number of self-aware people actually have a stronger performance as a team. ⁓ When you're high in self-awareness, it is actually the number one thing linked as a predictor of success, which is like not hard work, not a lot of things we think, but self-aware. And the last little interesting thing is when you have an accurate self-assessment, so self-aware, you personally actually have a higher performance if people were rating you. I can see that. It's like, get really frustrated. You're like, why can't my boss see what I see? But if they were self-aware, you'd be like, okay, then I rate you better because like you kind of, get it. Even if you don't, even if you're not perfect, you at least see what I'm frustrated about, right? Yeah. And when you talk about strategies, I mean, I know we got to move to some other things, but if you talk about strategies of being self-aware, again, you can't become self-aware by yourself. So that means you, and you referenced this earlier, your wife, our wives are so good at that. Kids help us do that. If you're willing to accept the punishment. They don't think you're cool. That is so right. Yeah. My kids do this, bust my chops and I'm like, you know, can't hide much from them. I got a five-year-old who still thinks I'm cool. we're, I'll eventually get where you are. But yeah, got 21 and 17 and like coolness, coolness left a bit ago. But on the self-awareness, I think it is beginning to... This is the challenge of being fully present because the more you can do that, you can pay attention to how you're feeling. So one thing that you could do is, and maybe we could put together some strategies and drop it on the website at some point, but it's beginning to pay attention to how you feel and how you're responding in particular moments. You could even jot these down. Jonathan asked me a question. I felt embarrassed. I challenged. I felt, you excited, whatever, what did I do? So you begin to look for patterns of how you do this. The other thing, and I've done this for years, I have people I trust in meetings, watch my behavior, watch my words, watch all that stuff. And then I tell them after the meeting, I wanna know, give me feedback. It's kind of what you would do when you're like public speaking, right? You record yourself and you watch it back. You could essentially do that in a meeting, but you could have someone do that for you. Just kind of chart your energy levels, your demeanor, your emotions. Like, cause they can see it. Like none of us are that like unreadable, right? We all, if somebody knows you well, they should be able to read your emotions. Yeah. Here's what's interesting. And this may be too provocative to say, but, but unawareness isn't neutral. In other words, it's like, it doesn't just, it's just, it's not just there. Eventually unawareness will become destructive. It's never just neutral or never just a throw away. And the sad reality is this, that if you don't see yourself from the inside out, if you don't have people to help you kind of get in there, and I know it's scary, some of us are afraid of what we might discover, some of us know things are tucked away inside and we're afraid to unlock those things. Some of us, you know, we've heard about stories and we're like, I don't want to be that way. But here's the reality. If you don't see yourself from the inside out, eventually, other people will see you from the outside in. So in other words, whatever's deep inside eventually gets put on display. so it's- That's a reality of like kind of honeymoon period, right? Is there's this honeymoon period when you get to a new leader or to a new church or wherever you are, where you see the outside, the outside's pretty nice, but then the longer you're there, the cracks start to show and you start seeing that inside part. And if that inside part is not dealt with, Often really it's our inside part that we're seeing through the other person, right? That's starting to show and we're like, ⁓ like, you know, the serial, what is it? The serial job hunter that's like, okay, this job, every two years you get a new job. Cause that old workplace was like so toxic, right? Like, and at some point you start realizing, ⁓ maybe the cracks are in me instead of in the place that I'm working, right? There's this, there's this self-awareness that comes available. But yeah, there's this honeymoon period where we're all tightened up and those cracks are all, you know, flush with each other and we don't really see it. And then it just starts opening up as we get more comfortable. Yeah. And pay attention, you another strategy and you said something that made me think about this, pay attention to like, how do you feel in certain moments? So again, these are just your, look, what we're really inviting you to do is to strengthen your notice or muscle that you would notice how I'm thinking, what I'm thinking, how did I emotionally respond? Cause remember this, Emotions are these intense automatic physical reactions to a stimuli. Something happens, it's this automatic physical reaction. A feeling is different. A feeling is this conscious interpretation of something that is happening that I am mentally labeling that is connected to a physical sensation. And they're happening like so, so fast and we don't even realize it. In fact, on average people have about 27 emotions every hour. And so, you know, we got to begin to pay attention to these things. So we're looking for patterns. What are the things that, you know, we need to work on? So I know self-awareness is a big thing. Let me ask you this, cause I know there's some other characteristic traits. See, I knew we we could hang out on that one for a long time. We even have some myths we need to get through. So yeah, we gotta, we gotta move Yeah. Let me ask you this. He talks about character traits. The second being prioritizing ministry over marriage or singleness. ⁓ It's not uncommon, right? This is no secret that leaders often put ministry first above everything, above everybody, right? Even key relationships. It's something that, I mean, it's, the beautiful thing about ministry is that you're doing something that matters, right? And it's even a little bit measurable. The tough thing about being a parent is, you know, my two-year-old bit his brother this morning. He bit his brother last week. He bit his brother two weeks ago and I'm working on it. I'm working on it every single week, right? Like we're reading the books, we're doing the courses, we're doing all the things, right? And it's far less measurable. Partially because I know it better, right? Like if you're working in a church, you see the people come in, you see, and this can get to, you know, one of the other myths of of, of, of unhealth or whatever. But the idea is we, you know, we see, because we see more shallow what's going on in people's lives, unless you're like a counseling pastor where you're seeing people's mess. But if you know, you're, if you're a graphic designer, if you're a worship leader, you're not getting into the trenches so much with people and you see largely more shallow results. So you see, you know, someone came in and we had 200 people here this week, 300 people here this week. Whereas my son, feels like the same issue every single week. I know people that work in counseling, especially in churches, it can feel very frustrating because you're like, nothing changes week to week, right? Whenever it comes to more organizational ministry, stuff just changed week to week. know, that guitar player got better. We saw our results, it was good. Like, are they actually having a good walk with Jesus? Who cares? They're good at guitar, right? We see the results and so it feels better and we can see more moving of the needle. yeah, which gets to kind of one of these myths of bigger is not better. ⁓ He talks, I mean, I kind of summarized it my own way. said, you know, we get one of the myths of unhealth is that bigger is better. We get focused on numbers, we get focused on ⁓ just seeing again, 200 people this week. I was guilty of this when I worked at a church, especially as a worship leader. whenever I would get up on stage and it was a low Sunday, it was a holiday weekend, it felt miserable. ⁓ Partially because the team, like the group dynamic was there. Whenever you're leading worship in an empty room, the energy level is not there. And I was so, ⁓ so responsive to the energy level that people were giving back to me. I know some pastors are the same way. like, hey, you gotta, you gotta preach back to me, right? Like they want the amens, they want the- yeah. I was so- ⁓ built on that, that it was kind of like a devastating feeling whenever we had a low Sunday, then we had a good Sunday and it was amazing. I felt great afterwards, right? the numbers are fickle and my emotions were fickle with those numbers. And that was something that, but again, that goes to like, it's easy to prioritize the numbers because we see real data versus marriage, singleness. Am I becoming a better person for the potential spouse? Am I helping my children become more loving? It's hard to see that because it's a much slower process. Yeah. Yes. Yes. You're right. And sometimes this is not the right phrase, but you'll get what I'm saying. Like sometimes one is sexier than the other. And that if I see growth and development and addition and multiplication and like, know, whereas marriage or singleness, friendships, relationships are just day to day. It's like, there's nothing necessarily splashy. I think, and Craig Rochelle, who's senior pastor, founding pastor at Life.Church in Oklahoma, he talks about this so much, that consistency, being consistent, being consistent, being consistent. And really that's what, you know, in our marriages and our relationships as, you know, single people, that's what is needed. In fact, I would say this phrase, if marriage, or if ministry wins and relationships lose, relationships could be if you're single and you have a tight knit relationships, marriage, kids, spouse, those relationships, any of those, then really everyone loses because what's happening is, I'm sacrificing important relationships in the name of devotion, but really what's happening is I'm- it devotion, but it's not necessarily devotion to Jesus, it's devotion to the organization. That's right. But really what's happening is I'm displacing people and I'm displacing myself and I'm displacing the church and I'm really getting things out of the working order that God intended for things to be optimally inside of. that creates the culture where now it's an expectation on someone else as well. I know I regularly talk to people, they're like, I was single, I was always at the church, now I'm married and I can't do what I used to be able to do. But the expectation is still there of me. And it's a really hard thing to navigate. Now I have a spouse, now I potentially have kids and my availability is less than, cause it's easy, when you're single, like, Yeah, I'll stay at the church till 10. All of my friends are there. Like I have no responsibilities. I'll grab Taco Bell and then come back to the church. Right. It's easy when you're single, when you have a spouse, when you have kids, when you have other responsibilities, it becomes not that easy. And it's hard for pastors. lot of people are in that environment where like my spouse is always at the church too. We're always at the church all the time. And sometimes family situations change and that's not possible. Man, and let me say this. If you're on a church staff and you're listening right now, Most churches do not understand the reality that you're human. If you're listening right now, we're talking to you, you're human. You have friendships that are important to you. have potentially a marriage. You have a kid or multiple kids. You you have parents, you know, you're human. And sometimes I think what the church does is they create a system that doesn't serve you, the human, the Jesus follower very well. And so we get into this game where we have to give up what God never intended us to sacrifice, but He intended for us to protect, but you're in an organizational structure that feels suffocating. Some of that you could potentially have created, right? With lack of boundaries or maybe your leader leads like that or. your elders, your deacons set up like that, where you could be talking about cultural elements. In fact, I would say this parenthetically, what I learned in my research on burnout is one of the key contributors to burnout is not necessarily the decisions of the leader, but it's the church structure that actually can accelerate and facilitate burnout because of the burden they place on leaders. And so for you, it can be this organization. A key thing though is it's not that churches don't want healthy people. They want healthy people as long as they're not on staff. It's like, right? Because I think everyone's like, yes, prioritize your spouse. Yes, prioritize your family. Do all of that. Prioritize spending time in the word. We preach that. But there's sometimes in certain churches, and I wouldn't say this is all churches. I would say in certain churches that are focused on growth often, ⁓ it can be, but not you. You're a minister, it's your job to pour out every last bit of yourself and figure out how to refill on your own time, right? Like, but you got to pour out. And I think that is a reality. So, which leads us to the third characteristic he talks about of being an unshack. No, you're good. It's a great lay down. So thanks for teaming me up. This idea that we're doing more activity for God than our relationship with God can support. really experienced that. I found myself in a content generating game, you know, with Sunday social, I create a lot of content. I found myself reading scripture and stopping so I could jot something down to, know, like, and so I found myself reading scripture. This would be a great post for Sunday social. ⁓ this would be a great email that I could write, right? Like I started reading for content instead of reading for my soul. Yeah, man, that's so good. It's not good. No, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think anyone working in a church can relate to that. Like you've done that, right? ⁓ hundred percent. This would be, I need to share this with Jonathan. This would be great for Jonathan. I could, you know, put this on social media. I include this. I had to flip that switch off. had to resist the urge. I would say for 20 minutes, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to jot it down. And then I would be done. And then I would say, okay, now I'm going to try to see if I can find that again. And it was inconvenient. I could have just jotted it down, but it was inconvenient to go back, but it was something that I needed to do for my soul. Yeah. we're so, especially working at church, we're so motion ⁓ generated and focused. And really the meaning in the moment is, Jesus, where are you right now? And what is it that you, if I'm reading something, if I'm listening to something, if I'm seeing something artistic, beautiful sunset. It's, you know, what do you want me to know right now? Not what do you want me to share right now? What do you want me to know right now? And I think when we do that, what's happening is we're not doing these things to replenish ourselves for the purpose of simply giving more out or replenishing ourselves as we keep that relationship, you know, with God. height and in step and healthy and consistent. And as a result, we get the chance. So we're not replenishing just to give back out, ⁓ I'm gonna drink my cup again, fill my cup. know, we kind of go through this cycle. It wasn't intended to be like that. It's really, I need to focus on my relationship with God to let that well fill up because that's how he wants me to live. And then he gives me opportunities to do things on his behalf, but I can't do those things just to give out. I would say this, and I don't know if this is fair, I have done this before. Sometimes I think doing too much for him could be a sign that I'm running from something and not running toward God. I'm trying to do more because it makes me feel better. I'm trying to please people. know, demonstrate responsibility. I'm trying to insert verses running to God first, asking him, what is it that you want me to see? What is it that you want me to know? Is there anything you want me to do right now? And really that being with him, which leads us into this last character trait that I want to ask you about that, man, this one's really hard because we're momentum people. But the fourth trait, and I know you've got some myths there as well, is failing. to practice Sabbath. Meaning intentional rest, not having a day off work, but intentional rest, meaning putting away the phone or turning off the news or doing the things that cause us to, even if we're thinking about work or simulating work or feeling stressed. Yeah, I think that's one of those, when we were writing Don't Burn Out Burn Bright, it really changed my perspective on Sabbath, the idea that it's not just not working. It's a really separating myself for a time where I can focus on family, God, what God has given me, all these things. ⁓ I wanna talk about something real quick, because we have these four myths, bigger is not better, you are who you are, it's more important as who you are, not what you do. We can't settle for surface spirituality, we have to like, just because it looks good doesn't mean we have to settle, we have to really focus on what's deep. But then addressing issues. is one of the fourth ones where sometimes we tend to like, just like, let's not address it. Let's just settle for peace and let's not address the elephant in the room. I pushed back on this because, ⁓ and again, I wish we could have, you know, unpacked this idea, what he says about this better, but the idea is, I think there are a lot of people who, they address every issue. Where they are just constantly battling, that's not right. This shouldn't be this way. That shouldn't be this way. And then there's other people who are like, ⁓ you know, it's fine. Like I'm a white person. So I tend to focus on the, it's fine. We just won't, we won't address that. We don't want to hurt people's feelings. You know, like it's really unhealthy for the team, but I don't want to like, I don't want to stir the pot, right? Like there's this tendency to do that. How, how do you balance that? I want to ask you, how do you balance that? Like actually addressing the issue that's causing toxic, you know, deterioration of the organization or, how do you balance that with them just being the person who's always like battling every battle? Yeah. ⁓ It's hard to answer that in a succinct way. will say this. In the one minute that we have left. Yeah. I don't think that you have to address everything. And at the same time, I don't think you should address nothing. ⁓ I think it's, can you measure impact? ⁓ What's the, you know, what's happening on the wear and tear of your people? Is it preoccupying the majority of people? Maybe the issue that you think needs to be addressed is not really the issue at hand. Right? So it's being discerning. Which again, an emotional intelligence awareness. That's right. Yeah. And, and I will say this, sometimes people want to go after every issue as a sign or as a demonstration that you care. But what happens is if you're not careful is you actually create excessive chaos and not calm. Yeah. And one thing I can say is, great leaders do bring and they know how to bring a sense of calm in the midst of chaos. It kind of makes me think about the concept of the Bible as a continuing revelation where God didn't, I mean, he gave a 10 commandments, right? But like he didn't address polygamy in the beginning, right? He didn't address slavery at a certain point. And people see that in criticized scripture is that, but could it be that God was saying humanity cannot handle all the change toward righteousness right now? which is maybe heretical what I'm saying right now, but the idea that like, God was aware of our ability to process him addressing things that needed to be fixed and was slow to it out of his love, right? Out of his love for us. Like he didn't address everything at that moment that needed change. He said, this is what they can handle right now. Let's change that. I don't know, what do you think about that? Well, and here's the thing that, here's what the church is great at doing. We're great at talking about things that have a result in behavioral modification. And if people behaviorally modify whatever it is, then we label that as success. It doesn't mean the heart changed. But if we could just get people to behave in a certain way or we attack the behavior, then it fixes things. And I think the church- They can lust, but as long as they don't act on the lust, we're good, right? Yeah. I'm telling you, I think that the church, and this is a whole nother episode. I would say as a warning is we've become obsessed with behavioral modification. I agree. And it hasn't focused on internal heart life transformation. And I think that's what Jesus was after. And so when we think about being a healthy or unhealthy leader, when Pete talks about these four characteristics, really the pause that we have to do is look in the mirror and go, which of these four characteristics or which of these myths? do I believe in and what might God be pointing me, not my church, not my staff, but pointing me to right now. Yeah, not my boss, but me right now and starting with me and see what happens inside. Let God do his thing, not for the purpose of everybody else that you serve, but for the purpose of helping you become more like him. It reminds me of that quote, send revival, start with me, right? Yes. That's what we should be reading this for. So, hey, that's right. I love this conversation. We're gonna be doing chapter two next week. We've to wrap up. We've run a little bit long, but I encourage you to read along with us. You don't have to, you can do it on audio book. You don't have to read. We're hopefully summarizing as much as well as we can, but I really liked this book. So I'm excited to talk about it more next week. So we'll see you next week.