Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E119: How to Live a Supernatural Life w/ Dr. Sean Tobin

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E119: How to Live a Supernatural Life w/ Dr. Sean Tobin · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  You're saying it should be more normal?
• 0:02
  Speaking of tongues, prophecy, healing, These are not things
• 0:05
  just for a few. They're for all Christians,
• 0:07
  right? Is that really true?
• 0:09
  The world today, we have such a need and more than anything for
• 0:11
  people to have an encounter with God than to have faith in Him.
• 0:15
  When Jesus saw this world and people that were seeking him,
• 0:18
  the first thing He did was empower people.
• 0:21
  Have you seen healings? I personally have seen
• 0:24
  instantaneous miracles, cancer, tumors disappear suddenly,
• 0:27
  broken bones immediately better. God wants to heal so much more
• 0:31
  than we realized. He's trying to convince us that
• 0:33
  he wants to heal. Hey guys, welcome back to the
• 0:40
  Lila Rose Podcast. Today we're going to talk to
• 0:42
  Doctor Sean Tobin, who is a psychologist and who helps lead
• 0:45
  Encounter Ministries in Los Angeles.
• 0:47
  We have a really fascinating conversation talking about the
• 0:51
  gifts of the Holy Spirit, talking about healing both
• 0:54
  naturally and supernaturally, how all Christians actually in
• 0:59
  baptism are invited in to practice the gifts of the Holy
• 1:02
  Spirit, how to have good boundaries, to know what is from
• 1:05
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• 3:09
  Doctor Sean Tobin, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:11
  Thank you, fun to be here. So we've actually met before.
• 3:14
  We have. We're both realizing this when
• 3:16
  you first got to the studio years ago in DC.
• 3:19
  And tell me about what you were doing in DC at that time.
• 3:22
  At the time, I was studying at the Institute for the
• 3:26
  Psychological Sciences in Arlington, VA, and we had mutual
• 3:30
  Catholic friends. It's kind of a fun Catholic
• 3:32
  community in that area. They called it the Catholic
• 3:34
  Mafia. Yeah.
• 3:36
  Well, some, I guess, yeah. Back in the day.
• 3:40
  And yeah, I, I just, I was getting my graduate degree in
• 3:43
  psychology there then and before coming up to California to
• 3:48
  continue studies and yeah, long time ago at this point.
• 3:51
  Awesome. Well, you're, you're a big shot
• 3:53
  because every, all these people I know are like, oh gosh, this
• 3:56
  is such an amazing organization. They talk about your work and
• 3:59
  your ministry and tell people who is what.
• 4:02
  Tell people what your organization is and then a
• 4:06
  little bit more about your background.
• 4:07
  Yeah, well, I guess maybe there's a couple different
• 4:09
  organizations that typically people know me through.
• 4:13
  So we we helped establish a Catholic mental Health Center in
• 4:16
  Los Angeles, really the only one called the Divine Mercy Clinic
• 4:21
  and Family Center. But I'm also the Co director
• 4:24
  with my wife for a school for supernatural ministry called the
• 4:29
  Encounter School Ministry in Los Angeles.
• 4:32
  And it's based off of a, a program established by Encounter
• 4:37
  Ministries in Brighton, MI. And so really just with those
• 4:40
  two, I mean, it's been awesome to get to know a lot of people
• 4:44
  in the area that are are, you know, on mission in some way for
• 4:47
  the Lord or trying to, you know, transform the culture.
• 4:50
  And so typically those two avenues.
• 4:53
  I I love that name. The School for Supernatural
• 4:56
  Ministry. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:58
  For supernatural ministry. And it's for I in Full
• 5:03
  disclosure, our one of our producers here has been to the
• 5:06
  school and that's how I first heard about it.
• 5:07
  And other friends of mine have been involved with your program
• 5:11
  and I've just heard amazing things about it.
• 5:14
  I think for any Christians listening, we want to live our
• 5:16
  faith. We want to grow in our faith.
• 5:18
  But what I love about what you're doing, from what I
• 5:20
  understand, is that you're trying to actualize the
• 5:23
  Christian to really be this oh, involved in miracles, involved
• 5:27
  in being led by the Holy Spirit to do amazing good things for
• 5:31
  the world and using the supernatural.
• 5:34
  Like that's not just something for the disciples 2000 years
• 5:37
  ago. That's not just something for
• 5:39
  like priests or some super holy person in a history book, but
• 5:42
  that's for every Christian. Tell me more about that.
• 5:45
  Talk to me more about that. Why is the supernatural work?
• 5:48
  What is? Well, we'll start with what is
• 5:50
  super. What is the supernatural?
• 5:51
  Well, you know what, how about this, even as we were saying
• 5:53
  that, I'm thinking about how the world today is just in such a
• 5:56
  need, right? We have such a need and more
• 5:59
  than anything, for people to have an encounter with God, for
• 6:03
  them to have faith in him. And when Jesus saw this world
• 6:08
  and people that were seeking him like sheep without a shepherd,
• 6:12
  harassed and helpless, the first thing he did was empower people
• 6:18
  to meet that need supernaturally, right?
• 6:20
  Not just with the 12, but then to the 72.
• 6:23
  And then in March 16, all those that believe that he's going to
• 6:26
  be a sign that will accompany believers.
• 6:31
  I was atheist for many years of my life and I thought Christians
• 6:36
  were hypocrites. I thought that, you know, they
• 6:39
  didn't practice what they preached.
• 6:40
  They didn't get the love thing down very well at all, never
• 6:44
  mind the supernatural stuff. And when I had my conversion,
• 6:47
  which really came through counting some really spirit
• 6:51
  filled holy priests and, and, and people of God.
• 6:57
  Yeah, I, I thought that this relationship and life in the
• 6:59
  Holy Spirit was like the secret that all these Christians had
• 7:02
  that they weren't telling anyone about, right.
• 7:04
  But I realized it's not normal. It's not normal to have such a
• 7:07
  supernatural life with God and, and to see like gifts
• 7:12
  manifesting somehow in your life.
• 7:14
  And, and so this, this ministry school really is about taking
• 7:18
  your average Catholic or believer or really across the
• 7:22
  denomination to really get them anchored in their identity of
• 7:27
  who they are as a beloved of son and daughter of God.
• 7:31
  Where they learn about this is something that is given freely
• 7:35
  by grace. It's about God's goodness more
• 7:38
  than anything that we could possibly deserve.
• 7:41
  And we really do everything that we can to get out of the way so
• 7:43
  that God can just give and love in powerful ways to his people.
• 7:49
  And we teach believers practical ways to begin to experience what
• 7:54
  some of those ways that God moves is like.
• 7:57
  So the ways of spirit in First Corinthians, whether it's
• 7:59
  knowledge or healing or tongues or prophecy, we give them
• 8:04
  practical kind of activations or, or these, these drills or
• 8:09
  exercises where a normal Catholic can begin to hear God
• 8:12
  for themselves and for someone else or to learn a way that's
• 8:17
  more approachable to pray for something they've never prayed
• 8:19
  before for like whether it's healing or whatever, or
• 8:22
  deliverance and the, the fruit from those experiences and going
• 8:26
  through this curriculum together for two years with small group
• 8:29
  and everything else. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty
• 8:31
  incredible. Just the stories of, I mean,
• 8:35
  from cancer, blindness, deafness, everything that's
• 8:38
  healed can't be healed. It's healed.
• 8:40
  Just the the supernatural encounters with people on the
• 8:44
  street where it's like the woman at the well or like just calling
• 8:49
  out the most profound things that happened.
• 8:51
  Lots of testimonies. It's just so exciting.
• 8:53
  God is doing amazing things. And I just, yeah, I'm so
• 8:57
  excited. There's so many questions I have
• 8:58
  listening to what you just said. There's like from the beginning.
• 9:01
  Like this? No, it's such good stuff and
• 9:03
  it's so needed today. So I know I want to, I want to
• 9:06
  get into the gifts of the Spirit and how to be a part of God's
• 9:09
  miracles because God is still doing miracles and they're
• 9:11
  promised for today, not just 2000 years ago.
• 9:13
  So they want to get into that. And it's not just like Benny
• 9:16
  Hinn pretending stuff on TV, you know, like some like, you know,
• 9:19
  fake. Maybe it's real.
• 9:20
  I don't know. But that's another conversation.
• 9:22
  All right, Bennyton is a big, you know, televangelist who some
• 9:26
  people say is fake in it and other people say is real
• 9:28
  anyways. And this is for all Christians,
• 9:31
  all the baptized, you know, anyone can, anyone can be
• 9:35
  through faith, you know, is through faith a child of God.
• 9:38
  And God wants to give the gifts to all of us.
• 9:40
  He's very generous who want to follow him.
• 9:42
  But before that you said you were an atheist and here you
• 9:46
  are. So I explained that like, were
• 9:50
  you raised atheist? Start with that, yeah.
• 9:53
  Because when I met you, you were clearly not atheist 10 years ago
• 9:56
  or whatever in UC so. And I didn't grow up that way.
• 9:59
  Came from an Irish Catholic background.
• 10:03
  Parents went through a bit of a split when I was young and I
• 10:07
  think over the course of time I just learned to be a little bit
• 10:10
  defiant of my parents and rebellious and act up in the
• 10:14
  church. And pretty soon I was asked I
• 10:16
  was allowed to not have to come. How old?
• 10:19
  Were you? I was probably like 11-12.
• 10:21
  Remember one time in particular, I was having a kind of an
• 10:26
  emotional moment sitting outside the church on the steps, you
• 10:29
  know, just in a terrible mood. And yeah, it just, it just kind
• 10:33
  of was like this attitude that I developed, I think over time,
• 10:37
  which had more to do with, again, hypocrisy that I could
• 10:41
  see. But my own hurt and my own,
• 10:46
  yeah, my own stuff that was coming out in my really my
• 10:49
  relationship with God and my choosing to deny Him, you know?
• 10:53
  Was that because you mentioned your parents had a bit of a
• 10:55
  split, the wounds in a relationship with them?
• 10:58
  Do you think part of that, you know, because as kids, our
• 11:00
  parents are kind of like God to us.
• 11:02
  Totally, totally. I mean, my, my grid for the
• 11:07
  closeness of a of a father or or an authority figure that's
• 11:10
  powerful, you know, is so much set in what I experienced.
• 11:15
  And I mean, my parents are very loving.
• 11:17
  But the way that I, I think probably coped with the Division
• 11:21
  I was experiencing at some level in the family, it, you know, it
• 11:24
  just turned me into a towards a negative path.
• 11:27
  And it took many years where, you know, it's going along with
• 11:31
  the world until my early 20s. And I mean, I'm trying to think
• 11:39
  of the the version of the story to tell you.
• 11:41
  The truth, of course, it's the truth that give me the give me
• 11:44
  the the real, like the raw What it?
• 11:49
  Came down to though like I had so much hatred and anger in my
• 11:52
  heart at the point where I finally had my that kind of
• 11:55
  breaking point and conversion from me.
• 11:57
  Was it anger and hatred at God or at people who represented God
• 12:03
  or. You know everything and and and,
• 12:06
  and God knows sometimes we need the scapegoat, you know, to
• 12:09
  direct. Is that 'cause you weren't in
• 12:12
  your experience, cause, and maybe we're talking about the
• 12:14
  split of your parents, but were you feeling like, not loved?
• 12:18
  Were you feeling not affirmed? Like, what was it that was at
• 12:21
  the very root of all that anger, would you say?
• 12:23
  Yeah, well, I know that no kid comes with their own instruction
• 12:29
  manual. I know and every kids needs
• 12:32
  temperaments are unique and for whatever reason, I felt
• 12:36
  disconnected from my parents in a lot of ways growing up.
• 12:39
  And I think there was a a growing aloneness and neglect
• 12:42
  that I suffered from and bullying and everything else
• 12:45
  over time that reinforces a lot of pain, you know, and, and I
• 12:49
  think it just built up so much and I just was angry.
• 12:52
  But I didn't have the concept of God at the time, at least
• 12:56
  consciously to direct that towards, you know, I, yeah, for
• 13:02
  whatever reason, I just for many years of my life was atheist and
• 13:07
  even spoke out against Christians.
• 13:09
  I thought they were brainwashed and just stupid, honestly.
• 13:14
  I was very much going in the direction of being pro-life and
• 13:18
  pro pro-choice, sorry, and everything else, you know, with
• 13:22
  the world. But it was really the conviction
• 13:26
  of meeting a couple. Well, I ended up going on a trip
• 13:31
  in Austria with with my dad to see my sister was studying at
• 13:37
  the Franciscan University of Steubenville.
• 13:40
  And they were in a program that was in Austria for the semester.
• 13:42
  And I remember going over there and encountering a couple really
• 13:48
  holy priests, I mean one from Father Dave Pavanka.
• 13:51
  Oh, he's amazing. Yeah, and I, I remember the
• 13:53
  first time I met that guy. I mean, I, I, I had read a book
• 13:56
  on Saint Francis of Assisi on, on this trip, trying to figure
• 14:00
  out who this guy was. And I actually liked how he had
• 14:02
  a bit of an attitude against his dad when he was, you know,
• 14:05
  disowning him and that whole thing.
• 14:07
  So I respected Francis and and I remember even meeting Father
• 14:12
  Dave and his frayed robes. And he was, he's authentic,
• 14:15
  authentically Franciscan and just a holy man.
• 14:19
  And one of the huge moments for me was when actually he and I
• 14:25
  were walking through Vienna looking for cigars.
• 14:30
  And we're going to go watch the Rugby World Cup that night with
• 14:34
  a, with a big group. But we ended up walking by a
• 14:37
  cathedral that, I mean, objectively, it's gorgeous,
• 14:41
  right? The cathedrals are just
• 14:42
  gorgeous. Even as an atheist, I had to,
• 14:44
  you know, it's gorgeous. But he asked me if I wanted to
• 14:48
  go in and I said yes 'cause I thought he was cool and he's.
• 14:55
  Going to give you a cigar later. Why not?
• 14:57
  I mean, yeah, something about this guy, which is he had a
• 15:00
  presence about him, right? This man, Christ like, and I
• 15:06
  remember going in and it's funny how it all started.
• 15:11
  We, we kind of started making this kind of general confession
• 15:15
  just right there in the Pew. I just sat with him and we're
• 15:18
  talking about life and all this stuff started coming out of me.
• 15:20
  All this anger towards my parents, my dad, my sister, my
• 15:24
  whoever else, right? All this anger and hatred and
• 15:27
  hurt. And I remember about one point
• 15:30
  he, he said, could I just pray for you?
• 15:32
  And I'm like, OK. And so he just put his hand on
• 15:35
  me and he just started praying in some weird language.
• 15:43
  I had no idea what he was saying sounded like gibberish, you
• 15:46
  know, But inside I burst into tears and I didn't know what's
• 15:53
  happening, but it felt like something was being drawn out of
• 15:56
  me like this poison that was being like taken out of my
• 15:59
  heart. And I just peace was just kind
• 16:02
  of taking his place. And he he kind of, and it's kind
• 16:08
  of a semi confession sort of thing.
• 16:12
  He gave me a little bit of a penance, he said.
• 16:14
  And I was challenged by others at the time, you know, if you,
• 16:16
  if I really am so anti Christian, anti, you know,
• 16:19
  believing in free will or whatever else, you know, Richard
• 16:23
  Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and all those guys were my
• 16:26
  heroes. Then if I'm going to criticize
• 16:29
  Scripture, then read it. And so he gave me first John to
• 16:32
  read and I read that thing. And I actually had gotten a
• 16:38
  Bible a week earlier in Lourdes. I mocked the whole thing, but I,
• 16:42
  I ended up, for some reason, yeah, just falling in love with
• 16:46
  the Bible immediately when I read first John, I was so
• 16:51
  inspired, I ended up starting to read the entire New Testament.
• 16:54
  So I just went back to Matthew and read the whole thing in like
• 16:57
  a week. And I'd go through nights where
• 17:00
  I'd wake up with scriptures kind of going through my head and not
• 17:03
  sure what was going on. But there was something about
• 17:07
  Jesus that was real, most true was and and I was being touched.
• 17:13
  I'm feeling like this inspiration.
• 17:15
  I'm feeling this like so much right.
• 17:17
  And I mean, from that point on, like it, you know, it's been a
• 17:20
  crazy journey since, but that that's just one moment.
• 17:23
  That was pretty defining enough for me.
• 17:25
  And it really was true. An encounter with something
• 17:28
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  What happened when you're going through this conversion process
• 18:38
  and you told or your parents noticed, especially maybe your
• 18:43
  dad, that this was happening, that my son is no longer an
• 18:46
  angry atheist, but all of a sudden he's crying over the book
• 18:49
  of John. Exactly, exactly.
• 18:51
  It was funny. Well, my mom, who is, is more of
• 18:57
  a a charismatic Catholic, I guess you would say she, she was
• 19:02
  overjoyed. I was with her at the time.
• 19:04
  My sister as well, my dad and the whole family was affected in
• 19:07
  different ways. My brothers thought I was
• 19:09
  schizophrenic. And it's kind of funny looking
• 19:12
  back now at the friends that thought I'd gone crazy, you
• 19:16
  know? And maybe I need the degree to
• 19:18
  tell, to prove to them it's not that, you know?
• 19:21
  The psychology degree, There you go.
• 19:22
  It's. Not that I'm crazy or am I?
• 19:24
  I don't know, But yeah. So they, it was hard for some
• 19:30
  because it's not just a matter of them trusting you, it's a
• 19:34
  matter of them trusting you. And then the implications of
• 19:37
  then they have to follow, you know?
• 19:39
  And some people aren't ready for that or are intimidated by their
• 19:42
  attachments or whatever else, you know.
• 19:46
  And so people have different kinds of reactions to me.
• 19:48
  And I was really intense early on to like a lot of converts
• 19:52
  are, I dove into a lot of the church's early writings and
• 19:58
  Mystics, which you'd think would be like a great place for any
• 20:02
  convert to start, right? But like when I got into Dick
• 20:06
  John on the Cross and other writings I I wanted because I
• 20:10
  was feeling so close to God, being so radically different
• 20:13
  from, you know. No belief in God.
• 20:19
  I thought I was a super St. I thought I was so much further
• 20:23
  along than I was in my my spiritual journey and the the
• 20:28
  teachings I learned about, you know, this ascent to Mount
• 20:31
  Carmel, or. The and then say when you read
• 20:33
  the Saint Teresa Avila. What?
• 20:35
  Everything else? Yeah.
• 20:36
  You're like I was in the inner mansion.
• 20:38
  I was there past the fruit of quiet.
• 20:41
  They're not even there yet. Yeah, I got super judgmental
• 20:45
  and. Of, of other, of other
• 20:48
  Christians you perceive to be lukewarm or not as yeah, it's,
• 20:52
  it's a, it's a, it's a trap. I mean, that's a like a real
• 20:55
  thing. Because as a convert you're
• 20:56
  like, you've had this little taste to you.
• 20:59
  It's like the world. And everyone else should be with
• 21:01
  you on it, you know, on everything.
• 21:03
  And yeah, a lot of energy. But yeah, I ended up going to
• 21:10
  Franciscan University myself, part of their pre theology
• 21:15
  program, and that's where I, you know, got a lot of my own
• 21:18
  formation and, and where the Lord really started to heal me
• 21:24
  and break my heart in the best ways, you know, so especially
• 21:30
  for people. What did Father Dave say when he
• 21:32
  saw you show up now for class at his school at Franciscan
• 21:36
  University? He wasn't the president at the.
• 21:38
  Time. But.
• 21:40
  When he found out that my atheist friend here is now the
• 21:44
  swimming convert. Yeah, we've run into each other
• 21:48
  a couple of times. My sister and him are very
• 21:49
  close, and she's also a medical doctor, actually.
• 21:54
  And yeah, it's been a good laugh at this point.
• 21:56
  Just, you know, when you're faithful to the Lord, I think,
• 21:59
  you know, you impact people. And it's just an amazing thing
• 22:02
  to look back on those peoples that you touch.
• 22:04
  And I was one for him. So yeah, really touched by his
• 22:07
  life. But at Franciscan, that's where,
• 22:11
  yeah, I really, I was so alone prior to that.
• 22:17
  Like it's such a unique culture to be around other young adults
• 22:20
  that are seeking the Lord while you're supported in that.
• 22:25
  And yeah, it grew, grew a lot in that in that environment.
• 22:28
  So. All right, so there's so much to
• 22:31
  unpack here about your school. I want to go back to this, the
• 22:33
  supernatural training. So where can we start here?
• 22:38
  Because there's so many places to start.
• 22:40
  I'd love to like breakdown. I'd love to hear you help people
• 22:42
  understand and and clarify for us.
• 22:44
  Like what are the gifts of this? There's the fruits of the Spirit
• 22:48
  and then the gifts of the Spirit, right?
• 22:50
  Sure, yeah. And and then help us understand,
• 22:53
  I know in the time we have, because you do 2 years of
• 22:56
  teaching on this, right? But how does one really live by
• 23:01
  the Holy Spirit? Because you meet those people
• 23:03
  like you're saying, where you can tell that they're in touch
• 23:08
  and there's something different about them.
• 23:09
  Like this is who I aspire to be as this close to our Lord,
• 23:12
  right? But they're they're working with
• 23:14
  his spirit. And then there are those stories
• 23:16
  of people that are involved in, like you said earlier healings
• 23:20
  and, you know, these supernatural moments of just
• 23:23
  breakthroughs. So, yeah, where do you think we
• 23:27
  should start? You tell me.
• 23:28
  You're the expert. Well, maybe I could tell you a
• 23:32
  bit more of how I started with an encounter Industries where I
• 23:37
  was looking at the time, I was a father in a young family working
• 23:44
  through my degree and starting to practice two children in
• 23:52
  Southern California where we didn't have any much family.
• 23:54
  And so a lot of lot of stuff, it was just setting us up for a
• 23:57
  challenging time, I guess, in life.
• 24:00
  And I was working at a psychiatric hospital at the time
• 24:03
  and I was really discouraged. I was really felt like at best
• 24:09
  it was triage for some people, you know, that are being
• 24:12
  chemically restrained or whatever else.
• 24:14
  And it's really suffering. And I was pretty depressed
• 24:20
  because I also, you know, when you read scripture, it just
• 24:26
  doesn't seem like Jesus had was intimidated by anything, right?
• 24:30
  Any infirmity, any sickness, any demoniac, whatever.
• 24:35
  And I just felt so far short from that, from walking in the
• 24:40
  authority to bring healing for people, you know, didn't feel
• 24:44
  like I had that that empowerment myself, even in the degree, even
• 24:48
  in all that I all the skills and arts and everything else I know
• 24:53
  still falls short and. It was part of that because the
• 24:57
  people that look at this psychiatric hospital, they're
• 25:00
  not all Christians. So you can't necessarily use the
• 25:03
  weapons. You could say of this of the
• 25:05
  faith because this person you don't it's in the clinical
• 25:07
  setting. It's like you start praying in
• 25:08
  tongues over them and like the boss is like.
• 25:11
  What are you doing? This is.
• 25:12
  Breaking protocol is that? Is that part of it, would you
• 25:14
  say? Partly, yeah, definitely my
• 25:16
  professional role. I don't really pray actively for
• 25:20
  people. It's not my not my position, I
• 25:23
  think at least in in what they seek from me.
• 25:28
  But if even the hospital, they'd have like a Chapel once a week
• 25:32
  pastor come in and and they have a cup with grape juice and
• 25:36
  little wafer thing they all line up for.
• 25:38
  And even if they're atheist and swearing and, or sometimes
• 25:42
  people literally would say that they're Satan or other demons or
• 25:46
  which could be or not, that's, that's a whole other thing we
• 25:50
  could look at. But the point is this point in
• 25:52
  my life, though, I, I just was discouraged and I couldn't, I
• 25:55
  couldn't fully integrate my faith, you know, with what I was
• 25:58
  doing. And yeah, so I, I did believe
• 26:01
  there was like an untapped potential in a sense with if I
• 26:05
  could somehow integrate faith. But even in my faith, I mean, I
• 26:09
  went to Franciscan and I was been involved in prayer groups
• 26:13
  and, and avid reader and listening to talks and
• 26:17
  everything else. I didn't see a lot of miracles
• 26:21
  though, you know, you go to healing masses, which are a
• 26:24
  popular thing in a lot of diocese.
• 26:26
  Don't see a lot of people believe in wheelchairs same way,
• 26:30
  you know, and I know there's healing that's happening, right.
• 26:35
  So I was just discouraged and I at the time actually discovered
• 26:41
  A and, and at this point already I had a, a, a certain
• 26:45
  understanding of what I believe was like the charismatic
• 26:49
  spirituality gifts, you know, speaking the stuff from
• 26:52
  Corinthians, right? First Corinthians chapter 12
• 26:55
  when Paul mentions you know from tongues to healing to prophecy
• 26:59
  to words of knowledge, words of wisdom, interpretation of
• 27:03
  tongues and. These are the gifts of the
• 27:06
  Spirit. The gifts of the Spirit in First
• 27:08
  Corinthians. There are other gifts, you know,
• 27:13
  he talks about in in Ephesians or many other places, actually,
• 27:16
  Paul talks about from apostles, prophets, evangel, shepherd's
• 27:20
  teachers. He gives those charisms, those
• 27:24
  giftings to his people. But often times when people talk
• 27:27
  about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, they're referring to the
• 27:30
  Corinthian gifts. Those are the gifts that are a
• 27:33
  little bit more unique after Pentecost, like the power, the
• 27:35
  dunamis gifts, the empowerments of the Holy Spirit for really a
• 27:40
  supernatural work beyond just embellishing a a talent and
• 27:47
  ability and making it supernaturally fruitful, you
• 27:49
  know? That's a really interesting
• 27:51
  distinction. I want to just pause for a
• 27:52
  minute because I think it's really useful for people
• 27:54
  listening and for me. So you're just making a
• 27:57
  distinction between two kind of categories of gifts of the Holy
• 28:01
  Spirit. One you mentioned are more
• 28:04
  Pentecostal, maybe like given when the Holy Spirit after Jesus
• 28:07
  is ascended and and and walk us through that difference one more
• 28:10
  time because you met you said something really beautiful that
• 28:12
  the other set you could say are more the the outpouring of
• 28:16
  natural talents that someone has or aptitude that then the Holy
• 28:19
  Spirit blesses further. But can you just help us like
• 28:22
  categorize that one more time for us?
• 28:23
  Yeah, yeah, Well, to 1°, everything's a gift, right?
• 28:28
  So when we talk about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, everything's
• 28:31
  a gift. Life breath is a gift.
• 28:33
  Every life from conception to death, right, Amen is a gift.
• 28:38
  So the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the ones I think that people
• 28:40
  are most interested in, they really are ones that seem to
• 28:44
  claim to have got God actively operating in that moment in some
• 28:51
  way through a life of a believer, whether it's through
• 28:54
  healing, whether it's through supernatural knowledge, a fourth
• 28:58
  telling or foretelling something that people unaided by the Holy
• 29:03
  Spirit could not do. It's like the Soul Reader idea,
• 29:07
  like you're in the confession, something supernatural knew
• 29:09
  something about me, or she gets up and walks out of her
• 29:12
  wheelchair. Like this is not explained
• 29:14
  through natural, the natural law.
• 29:17
  This is something that's supernatural.
• 29:18
  Absolutely, yeah. Beyond what's natural.
• 29:23
  And again, we can have gifts of the Holy Spirit that empower
• 29:30
  natural giftings or traits, whether it's again, like an
• 29:33
  office of teacher or healer. But every mother is a teacher to
• 29:39
  her children. She might not have the office of
• 29:41
  teacher in the church, you know, or some other place in society.
• 29:46
  But so I think the Holy Spirit when it when it comes to to the
• 29:56
  to the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we often try to make more
• 30:02
  normal again, as it was in the early church, the gifts of
• 30:04
  Pentecost, the gifts of First Corinthians chapter 12.
• 30:10
  Often times a lot of people have had negative experiences in the
• 30:16
  past that can discourage them from being open to it or they've
• 30:20
  been told things like it's not of God.
• 30:22
  It's not good to search it out. And so we can have all this
• 30:25
  anxiety around even being interested to this part of our
• 30:29
  faith that's very clearly in Scripture.
• 30:31
  Right. Meaning it seems weird to some
• 30:33
  people, like, for example, praying in tongues.
• 30:34
  Totally. I remember this was early on in
• 30:37
  my faith. There was actually maybe I
• 30:39
  wasn't even practicing my faith at the time.
• 30:41
  There was a period of time where I was like, I'm not sure what I
• 30:42
  believe. Am I gonna be Muslim?
• 30:45
  I mean, you know, Buddhist, like, you know, I kind of did
• 30:47
  the I was a teenager, like exploring all these religions.
• 30:50
  But I remember there was this guy that was sort of supporting
• 30:53
  live action in my high school chapter at the time.
• 30:55
  And he spoken, He would sometimes pray in tongues.
• 30:58
  And I remember thinking, OK, I had some respect, you know,
• 31:01
  like, he's well-intentioned, very nice guy.
• 31:03
  But it was also kind of weird to me.
• 31:04
  I was like, this is a little weird, you know, It's very.
• 31:09
  Weird. Yeah.
• 31:09
  I feel like we should just focus on like, one gift.
• 31:12
  Like we could just focus on even that one.
• 31:13
  Well, well. So to what you're saying though,
• 31:16
  you're saying it should be more normal, like this should be
• 31:20
  common parlance for all believers like these, Like
• 31:25
  Speaking of tongues, prophecy, healing.
• 31:27
  These are not things just for a few, they're for all Christians,
• 31:31
  right? Is that really true?
• 31:33
  I I mean Saint Paul says I want you all to pray in tongues, but
• 31:36
  even more to prophecy. So.
• 31:38
  And when he says, I want you all to pray in tongues or even more
• 31:41
  to prophecy, 'cause you mentioned there's sort of the,
• 31:43
  the prophetic, like you're, you know, a voice, it's
• 31:46
  countercultural, right? Some people like you've got the
• 31:48
  gift of prophecy, 'cause you're countercultural.
• 31:49
  I'm like, there's something prophetic in it, but what does
• 31:54
  Saint Paul mean when he says he wants us to have the gift to be
• 31:57
  able to prophecy? I mean.
• 31:59
  What does that mean? Prophecy.
• 32:00
  That's ultimately it's about God wanting to speak to his people,
• 32:04
  right? And he'll speak to us through us
• 32:08
  or through an infinite number of means, right?
• 32:11
  Whether it's a secular song that God cuts your heart through or a
• 32:16
  person that speaks a word that you needed to hear, right?
• 32:20
  But if we have a capacity to hear God, and I mean, it's
• 32:25
  better than Google, right? God knows everything, then
• 32:31
  sometimes. And if we have the mind of
• 32:33
  Christ, like we share headspace with Christ, there should be
• 32:36
  times where we should evidence something in our life that goes
• 32:40
  beyond the natural. We should know things sometimes
• 32:44
  about people making love our aim right in the in the purpose of
• 32:48
  love that can accelerate healing in people's life or breakthrough
• 32:56
  to really bring this person more into how God made them to be.
• 32:59
  And that's really I think the purpose of prophecy right into
• 33:01
  the gifts is to really build up and and for God to love his
• 33:04
  people. And so we believe prophecy
• 33:10
  prophecy. A prophet is ultimately someone
• 33:12
  who hears God's voice and he speaks in a multiple of ways.
• 33:16
  A picture speaks 1000 words, you know, or in audio, audible
• 33:22
  mental voices. So there, there's, there's,
• 33:26
  there's both this idea that all of creation speaks of God,
• 33:31
  right? So there's a revelation in
• 33:33
  creation. There's something prophetic in
• 33:35
  that way that speaks of God, of God speaking through creation.
• 33:39
  But then you also have people who literally would get a word
• 33:42
  like a prophet in the Old Testament.
• 33:44
  Thus saith the Lord and can have incredible impact with the word
• 33:50
  that comes out of their mouth after that, right.
• 33:53
  So you have like these degrees of God speaking, right?
• 33:57
  And I guess when we talk about prophecy, at least it's it's
• 34:01
  yeah, just people stepping into this capacity.
• 34:03
  We have to hear God for others and it should be norm a a norm I
• 34:11
  think. How does that work though,
• 34:14
  'cause I, I've heard, for example, friends say, oh, this
• 34:19
  person told me that God told them to tell me.
• 34:22
  And, you know, half the time it's like, oh, that was a good
• 34:25
  word. And then the other half of the
• 34:27
  time it's like, I don't know, that was not a good word.
• 34:29
  Like, you know, if God wanted to tell me that, he would have told
• 34:31
  me himself. So how do you, Because I think
• 34:35
  in the world there's people maybe who you mentioned earlier
• 34:39
  may misuse or even misunderstand these sacred things.
• 34:43
  And so they might accidentally abuse them.
• 34:46
  And then there's people who are just not activated at all and
• 34:48
  not daring to enter into this level of relationship with Jesus
• 34:51
  actively. And so they're like afraid of
• 34:53
  it. And then there's like everything
• 34:55
  in between. So I guess maybe the question
• 34:58
  here first is how does one discern?
• 35:01
  How does one get the gift of prophecy?
• 35:02
  Let's start with that. And then I want to know, how do
• 35:04
  you discern when someone else is like giving you that gift?
• 35:08
  How do you know if it's from God?
• 35:09
  Really. I would say one fundamental
• 35:14
  place where every believer can claim that they participate in
• 35:20
  the prophetic office of Christ is through baptism.
• 35:24
  So every believer is a prophet just through virtue of baptism
• 35:28
  alone, right? And, and so I would say it comes
• 35:35
  from God. It comes and the ability to hear
• 35:38
  him comes from him. You know, when people say I have
• 35:42
  the gift of prophecy versus this versus that, that's a way of
• 35:46
  talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
• 35:47
  Like I have this gift for that, for that gift.
• 35:50
  I don't think about it typically in terms of I have this one or I
• 35:54
  don't, I have that one or I, I know the Lord.
• 35:58
  I love the Lord and he wants to encounter his people and I'm
• 36:02
  trying to be more open to the ways he does that.
• 36:07
  And meaning you might have the gift one day and might not have
• 36:09
  it the next, depending on how the Lord chooses to act through.
• 36:11
  It if you have the gift of healing, it's not gonna do you
• 36:13
  much if the person doesn't need healing, you know, So what does
• 36:16
  that person need? Is it the woman at the well or
• 36:18
  is it the leper? Like who is that Lord's trying
• 36:21
  to reach through you? And, and so for me, like
• 36:25
  prophecy, for instance, in the New Testament in in Acts, Agabus
• 36:31
  is called a prophet. So he even gets a part of the
• 36:36
  application of a word wrong. He even tells Paul not to go to
• 36:39
  Jerusalem because he can be bound there by the Jews.
• 36:43
  He ended up being bound by the Romans, not the Jews.
• 36:46
  But he was right. He was bound right.
• 36:48
  And the application was not to go, but Paul went anyways.
• 36:51
  He knew, he knew that was the call.
• 36:53
  So it's it's up to the believer to test all things and hold fast
• 36:56
  to what is good, right. What was interesting is even
• 37:00
  when that happened, it was he was at Phillips house and and
• 37:04
  Acts all of Phillips daughters, unmarried daughters, ones that
• 37:09
  were still at home. They all prophesied over Paul 2
• 37:12
  and prophecy. I mean, the only clear like this
• 37:16
  is prophecy in scripture is what people prophecy.
• 37:19
  And that's it looks like that. It looks like something that you
• 37:22
  couldn't know. It's not just teaching from the
• 37:24
  word and kind of naturalizing the gift a bit.
• 37:28
  You know, it does seem like a distinct God speaking somehow.
• 37:33
  But again, interpretation and application of a prophetic word
• 37:37
  is subject to believers. And when, when prophetic words
• 37:41
  are very rare in people's life and the few words they've heard
• 37:46
  tend to be really defining, like if if you heard from, from one
• 37:49
  person a word, it's the one word you ever heard in your life.
• 37:52
  Like you're gonna chew on that, you're gonna think about it.
• 37:54
  It's gonna be a point of reference or how you God's life,
• 37:58
  calling your life everything right.
• 37:59
  But if you get 1000 words from people from different people,
• 38:03
  you start to recognize like God is less focused on giving you
• 38:07
  the secret to your future and the path to take.
• 38:11
  And he's so much more focused on just being part of the journey
• 38:14
  and wanting to encourage you. And he's God made the extrovert
• 38:17
  as well as the introvert. He wants to speak to you.
• 38:21
  And I think that as the body of Christ, we're meant to build
• 38:25
  each other up like that, to be one another's.
• 38:27
  It's, it's harder to hear God for yourself when you're going
• 38:30
  through something, but sometimes it's easier to pray for someone
• 38:33
  because you feel compassion for them.
• 38:35
  And I think that's the way that we we hear God for one another
• 38:37
  as a body of Christ. And it's meant to be a norm in
• 38:40
  that, in that way. That's such a powerful thing you
• 38:43
  just said because what you're saying is it's not one and done.
• 38:46
  It's not like, oh, this one guy told me this one time that you
• 38:50
  were meant to, you know, speak to all nations or something like
• 38:53
  this, right? And then your whole life, like I
• 38:54
  have to go speak to all nations. It's like you're supposed to be
• 38:56
  in relationship to God and his people who will kind of coach
• 38:59
  you and urge you and prompt you and encourage you and challenge
• 39:02
  you on this journey. And it'll probably include the
• 39:05
  speaking to all nations type thing that you're on your
• 39:07
  journey. For.
• 39:09
  Or maybe it doesn't directly. Maybe it's just the story of a
• 39:11
  soul that connects to more people than your life ever
• 39:14
  could. All right, so that that's such a
• 39:16
  good word what you just said, because and this is maybe where
• 39:20
  we can get misled, we can allow ourselves to be misled.
• 39:23
  We can mislead ourselves where we hear this word and we think,
• 39:27
  OK, yeah, that guy says you meant to speak to all nations or
• 39:29
  something. And then you go and you like you
• 39:31
  don't get those opportunities or something.
• 39:33
  And maybe you in addition that you're a raging caller and
• 39:35
  you're like, yeah, I thought I should have gotten the job or
• 39:38
  like, you know, I got the opportunity or I'm supposed to
• 39:40
  be this president of the United States.
• 39:41
  I've met probably a dozen people not my life who sincerely think
• 39:44
  they're supposed to be president of the United States.
• 39:46
  They can't all be I've. Met some people who think they
• 39:48
  are the president. Yikes.
• 39:50
  And the president of the psychiatric.
• 39:52
  Hospital right and I've met the President of the United States.
• 39:55
  But anyways, but the point is, the point is like you just said,
• 39:59
  like this idea, OK, what does it mean to speak to all nations
• 40:02
  like for Saint Therese? Who died at what age?
• 40:05
  2023? And she spent her whole life
• 40:08
  behind the walls of a convent, right?
• 40:11
  She's the patroness of missions because in the next life and
• 40:14
  through her prayer and through her inspiration, she's inspired
• 40:17
  millions of people to preach the good news around the world,
• 40:19
  including myself. Yeah, totally.
• 40:21
  So she's accomplishing that, but she did it.
• 40:23
  She didn't get to do it in her life in this time the way that
• 40:27
  you would think. But that's the work of the
• 40:29
  Spirit, right? It's so mysterious and you
• 40:32
  can't, you don't tap into it unless you're tapped into it
• 40:35
  like you're you're going to miss that boat if you think about it
• 40:37
  the worldly way. So I think what you're saying
• 40:40
  with the prophecy stuff is so powerful because you can't,
• 40:42
  there's not like a shortcut like give me the handout of my
• 40:45
  directions and I'm I'm good. I'm going to go run the run the
• 40:47
  like directions that you gave me on the handout.
• 40:50
  You have to be in relationship with Christ and His church
• 40:52
  totally to do the thing of living the life.
• 40:55
  Well, absolutely the the analogy.
• 40:58
  So the president of Encounter Ministries, Father Matthias
• 41:01
  Thalin, he uses the analogy that prophecy in the church is like a
• 41:06
  fire just to get the prophecy alone, right?
• 41:10
  That without a fire in a home, it can get cold, right?
• 41:14
  Whatever that represents rigidity or, you know, whatever,
• 41:17
  cold, dark, but without a fireplace, the whole place can
• 41:22
  burn down. So you need prophecy, but you
• 41:25
  also need discernment principles.
• 41:27
  You need some checks and balances, you might say, right,
• 41:30
  'cause the church is founded on the apostles and the prophets,
• 41:35
  right? In the early church, they had
• 41:38
  this integration in, in their community in a different way
• 41:42
  than we do today. Or the the prophetic was there
• 41:46
  was such a different place for it and, and coming up with
• 41:49
  strategic plans. You know, I mean, at one point
• 41:54
  in the Acts of Apostles, they heard of a famine coming by a
• 41:56
  prophetic word and they sent relief and never hear, never
• 41:58
  hear about it, right, because they sent relief ahead of time.
• 42:02
  And so it was like a normal part of the church.
• 42:04
  Or like when they're praying and fasting and the Holy Spirit
• 42:06
  says, Hey, set apart from me, Paul and Barnabas, it's time
• 42:10
  that these two go there, you know?
• 42:12
  And they did it. Or times where he wanted to go
• 42:15
  somewhere and it said the Spirit of the Lord wouldn't let us and
• 42:17
  we went here. And so, yeah, the supernatural
• 42:22
  lifestyle. So prophecy needs principles,
• 42:27
  need discernment, tongues, all, all the gifts.
• 42:30
  Ultimately, God gives gifts so generously.
• 42:34
  I mean, you even mentioned Benny Hinn, right?
• 42:37
  Think it's legit? Well, I disagree significantly
• 42:41
  with a lot of his theology. I think we have to as Catholics
• 42:44
  and and he's actually come a long way in his own journey,
• 42:49
  right from a prosperity gospel at times to some really
• 42:55
  questionable pastoral and theological practices, right.
• 43:01
  Enemy always tries to destroy the messenger to destroy the
• 43:05
  message. I remember when I first was
• 43:08
  exposed to Benny Hinn, I read his book Good Morning, Holy
• 43:13
  Spirit, and and it's a guy who is kind of discovering God
• 43:20
  through his own reading the scriptures, his own prayer time.
• 43:23
  And while some might consider that dangerous to not have a
• 43:29
  guide and it is right and he's not explicitly Catholic, right,
• 43:36
  He doesn't identify as being Catholic.
• 43:40
  Do something about his book that really changed me.
• 43:45
  He would spend hours and hours and hours a day just talking to
• 43:49
  the Holy Spirit and just talking to him about what Jesus did,
• 43:53
  talking to him about what was happening in the Scriptures
• 43:55
  lecture Divina. And he would just talk into
• 43:58
  fellowship with the Holy Spirit to where he would leave his
• 44:01
  room, get in the car with someone, and they would start
• 44:05
  weeping because the presence of God with him.
• 44:08
  And I know that there's something in that man's life.
• 44:11
  There's faith in Jesus and, and all I gotta say is I don't know.
• 44:15
  I, I can't, I don't know him enough to judge.
• 44:18
  I've met some Catholics that have got events and, and
• 44:21
  experienced God there. But also there's weird stuff.
• 44:26
  There's a lot of weird stuff, but hey.
• 44:29
  How do you test that? How do you because I think in
• 44:32
  today's world, like I think about like yoga, right?
• 44:35
  And I think about, you know, incantations or meditation to
• 44:41
  the point of like manifestation, like the kind of new agey type
• 44:44
  stuff. And there is some like real
• 44:47
  breakthroughs that those people feel they experience and, and
• 44:50
  concretely experience, meaning they can like access success or,
• 44:56
  you know, the, you know, more breakthroughs in their personal
• 44:58
  relationships. And you know, obviously the
• 45:01
  beauty of our faith is that anything good, anything true,
• 45:04
  anything beautiful belongs to the Lord.
• 45:06
  And you can find pieces of all those things all over, you know,
• 45:10
  so with Benny Hinn, there's real stuff there, but there's some
• 45:13
  not maybe real stuff. So how do you discern and how do
• 45:17
  you protect? How do you, how you, how do you
• 45:20
  like, cause I've been told by believers before, like yoga is
• 45:24
  dangerous. Now how you practice it might
• 45:27
  change how dangerous it is. But like, you know, there's, so
• 45:30
  we're, we're in the life of the Christian.
• 45:31
  Where are those red lines, those boundaries?
• 45:35
  How do we discern how open to be and how closed and?
• 45:40
  Well, the easy answer it's it's scripture and tradition.
• 45:44
  Scripture and tradition are our two goal posts.
• 45:49
  But even within tradition we have some cultural theology as
• 45:53
  well that doesn't always speak for what's authentically
• 45:56
  Catholic, right? So.
• 45:58
  What's an example of that? Well, like, even like my SO one
• 46:04
  of my passions is, is this whole spiritual warfare world.
• 46:08
  And a lot of what we teach or believe can be kind of
• 46:11
  superstitious. And that goes against faith in a
• 46:16
  lot of ways and being anchored in what Jesus has done and
• 46:21
  accomplished and finished right. And so sometimes we can can
• 46:27
  promote ideas that that really limit people.
• 46:33
  And, and so that can be part of a tradition, right?
• 46:37
  But in the Catholic tradition, I mean, we understand that the
• 46:40
  church is the bulwark of the truth, right?
• 46:42
  It's, it is the, it's, it's Christ himself ultimately,
• 46:46
  right? It's his body.
• 46:49
  So in one sense, it's perfect. But for example, when it comes
• 46:55
  to say the supernatural in the early church, there were
• 47:00
  heretical groups like like the Montanists who who believed who
• 47:06
  they had these prophetesses who started being possessed by the
• 47:10
  Holy Spirit and prophesying all this stuff.
• 47:12
  And some of the great theologians in the early church,
• 47:15
  like Tertullian actually joined them.
• 47:18
  And there was a lot of theological errors that started
• 47:23
  to be to be taught that came out of private revelations.
• 47:27
  And so I think, you know, there's always this this tension
• 47:31
  that we have about receiving something from the Lord or from
• 47:36
  some source, but testing all things to what we know is true,
• 47:42
  which ultimately is is against Christ himself.
• 47:45
  He's the rock, right? In a new age world, in secular
• 47:51
  society, people are hungry for the supernatural.
• 47:55
  That's why they go to psychics and tarot card readers and
• 48:00
  everything else, right? They and sometimes people are so
• 48:03
  anxious and afraid that they, they would like to think there's
• 48:05
  just something someone could just tell them something about
• 48:08
  the future, right? There's ease their suffering.
• 48:12
  We see value in that, right? Or in the world where now that
• 48:17
  we're discovering all this stuff about positive thinking and
• 48:20
  manifesting with the mind, really what it comes down to is
• 48:23
  we are limit, we are living in a limited capacity.
• 48:29
  And these are ways that man is discovering what he's capable
• 48:32
  of. But what man is truly capable of
• 48:38
  is what we see in the life of Christ.
• 48:39
  This is a perfectly human person empowered by the Spirit of God.
• 48:45
  So we should do what he did. And that means signs of wonders.
• 48:50
  I mean, Peter even walked on the water before Pentecost.
• 48:52
  So, you know, these are just things that God can do and is,
• 48:58
  you know, so manifesting Jesus got a fish out of the pond and,
• 49:03
  you know, out of the sea and there was a a coin in its mouth,
• 49:06
  right. If they if they walk on a on a
• 49:09
  on a street of gold in heaven, like God has resources we aren't
• 49:14
  aware of, not always a physical resource.
• 49:19
  And so this is really about tapping into a resource, tapping
• 49:23
  into more the fruit that comes from a relationship.
• 49:30
  I mean, gosh, I feel like we can go in a bunch of directions
• 49:33
  here. Whatever direction you're going
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  your order. So so if you're if you're in
• 50:20
  relationship, let let's talk about it.
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  Maybe someone listening can relate to what I'm about to say
• 50:24
  because I know people like this. You're in relationship, you're
• 50:29
  trying to live the moral law, trying to obey, you're trying to
• 50:31
  pray, you're trying to live your vocation.
• 50:35
  You're you're, you're in it. You're trying to read scripture.
• 50:37
  You're trying to go to the sacraments.
• 50:38
  You're trying to do the things right and life is throwing
• 50:41
  curveballs. You're just navigating right.
• 50:44
  You're on your path, hopefully to heaven, right, led by the
• 50:47
  Lord if you are on that path. But you are not seeing signs and
• 50:52
  wonders, You're not seeing any healings.
• 50:54
  You're not prophesying or being prophesied too.
• 50:57
  You're not doing any of that post Pentecostal specific Holy
• 51:00
  Spirit stuff. It's not really part of your
• 51:01
  daily, weekly, or even monthly life.
• 51:04
  Are you? Are you living?
• 51:06
  Are you doing what you should be doing as a Christian?
• 51:09
  Well, I know a lot of Catholics that don't really have a lot of
• 51:12
  good community, but that's part of our faith, right?
• 51:17
  We're meant to really be connected to the body of Christ.
• 51:21
  So there could be elements of our faith that we're not fully
• 51:25
  appropriating. We're not activated.
• 51:27
  Activated fully in. So the Lord's still with us, but
• 51:30
  there's more for us if we're willing to.
• 51:33
  There's more of him endless, and infinitely more of him.
• 51:36
  So, so that Christian, you wouldn't say there's something
• 51:40
  wrong with you. No.
• 51:41
  But more that there's more you don't.
• 51:42
  Have to speak in tongues to be saved.
• 51:44
  Right. But but maybe there's more like
• 51:46
  to be truly Holy Spirit LED. There may be more for you, would
• 51:52
  you say? But I I go back to the basics.
• 51:55
  Who is the Holy Spirit? I mean to some extent.
• 51:58
  I mean the apostles healed before the Holy Spirit was in
• 52:01
  them post Pentecost, right? He was with them, but then would
• 52:05
  be in them, which is different. How is that different?
• 52:10
  Well, the indwelling of the Spirit is a unique grace that
• 52:14
  even even the prophets weren't called temples of the Holy
• 52:16
  Spirit. They never said of the prophets.
• 52:20
  That's why the greatest in the Kingdom is greater than even
• 52:21
  John the Baptist, because God dwells in the believer.
• 52:25
  It's profound. That's why Jesus said I have
• 52:28
  something even better than being with you in the flesh, and
• 52:30
  that's even better. That's crazy, by the way.
• 52:32
  Some might not think no, I'd rather just see you.
• 52:34
  Jesus, I know it's like the wheel.
• 52:35
  It's even better than physically walking with Jesus is to have a
• 52:38
  spirit, he said. Right, but spirit made matter.
• 52:41
  The spirit is superior in a sense, but we so much of our
• 52:47
  senses and perception is like in upside down South.
• 52:54
  So this, this idea of I know it. Often times we can hear messages
• 53:01
  about the supernatural and especially when people are say,
• 53:06
  promoting, say the charismatic renewal or saying everyone has
• 53:09
  got to be baptized in the Holy Spirit or you got to be.
• 53:12
  I want you all to be praying in tongues.
• 53:13
  Like often is like, well, what about me?
• 53:15
  Like I, I just changed like 5 diapers today or I, I'm, I don't
• 53:19
  have time to say that I'm thinking about this right.
• 53:22
  Well, I believe we're all called to live a normal supernatural
• 53:27
  lifestyle where it fits into Nazareth in Bethlehem.
• 53:32
  Yeah, like my family, we, we pray the rosary together, you
• 53:36
  know, not every day, but frequently.
• 53:39
  And and when we do, we, we all have have space to offer
• 53:43
  intentions, every mystery. But then the 5th mystery we have
• 53:46
  our own little tradition of letting the Holy Spirit give us
• 53:50
  his intentions and so far from a young age, my kids have learned
• 53:54
  to hear God and and get images, words, impressions, different
• 53:59
  kinds of ways God speaks share what they got.
• 54:03
  I often will write that down and over time you can see like these
• 54:07
  seasons of your lives that God was speaking through beautiful.
• 54:11
  It's cool and we just kind of pray back to God what he wants
• 54:14
  to do. And, but from a young age, like
• 54:16
  two years old, my daughter was here in God or having prophetic
• 54:19
  dreams and like it's, if you know that this is normal, you
• 54:23
  just do it and from you know, so that's normal life like or like
• 54:31
  gift of healing, right? I, there's a difference between
• 54:35
  having faith in healing and faith for healing, right?
• 54:39
  I, I can have a great theology that God wants to heal.
• 54:42
  He's, he is, he is the healer. That's what he does, who he is.
• 54:46
  But for this person right now, who I could potentially blame my
• 54:49
  hand on and pray for, is he going to heal them now?
• 54:52
  Like, if I'm honest, sometimes we don't feel a strong degree of
• 54:56
  confidence in that of faith, really.
• 55:00
  Is that presuming to to have that degree?
• 55:03
  Like when does the faith become presumption?
• 55:05
  Like, let's say someone's really that's.
• 55:06
  A good That's a good point, because Jesus doesn't heal the
• 55:08
  same way every single time. It's not always just by laying
• 55:10
  on the hands. Sometimes it's by walking with
• 55:12
  someone. Or maybe they're not going to be
• 55:15
  healed. And that's, that's a whole other
• 55:18
  rabbit hole. I mean, I I against Magisterium
• 55:23
  serves scripture right? And by Magisterium, just for
• 55:26
  those listening. What is that Magisterium?
• 55:28
  The Church's teaching authority and and and hierarchy.
• 55:31
  Tradition and the hierarchy. Yeah, all that.
• 55:33
  Yeah. But Scripture is the highest
• 55:36
  authoritative document in the church, right?
• 55:41
  No one came to Jesus for healing.
• 55:43
  No matter what their measure of faith was, it wasn't healed.
• 55:46
  Wow. He never told anyone.
• 55:48
  I know it's going to be hard. Like even like in the chosen
• 55:51
  right, it was James, little James, it knows to be hard.
• 55:55
  But this is for your, for your good, you know?
• 55:58
  To not be healed. Right.
• 56:00
  What does that mean though for the very?
• 56:02
  So, so, so let's just start with that.
• 56:04
  Yeah, let's just start with that reaction.
• 56:06
  Can I, can I use an example? So there's a Instagram account.
• 56:09
  We're going to have her husband on the show.
• 56:11
  It's called Blessed by Cancer. Very public about their story.
• 56:14
  Beautiful mother of four young children, extremely full of the
• 56:18
  Holy Spirit from I, from what I can see.
• 56:21
  I mean I don't know her personally but beautiful life of
• 56:24
  faith and she passed away. I know.
• 56:27
  And you know, her husband obviously is, you know, they
• 56:30
  have consolation in that because the Lord is with them always.
• 56:33
  But you know, it's a tremendous grief.
• 56:37
  Well, part of the reason why I've been doing this ministry
• 56:42
  school for three years, we're actually passing the baton off
• 56:45
  for this next year so that my wife and I can really just have
• 56:51
  a year to rest and to really discern what's next.
• 56:56
  Because my, my father-in-law passed away in November.
• 57:00
  He was diagnosed in October with stage 4 lung cancer and was dead
• 57:04
  a month and a half later. And he, he, I mean, he led a
• 57:10
  parent group every every week for like 25 years and really
• 57:14
  faithful man of God. And there's a lot see our
• 57:18
  experience holds a lot in tension.
• 57:22
  But faith sometimes isn't so much believing despite
• 57:28
  experiencing. It's believing until my
• 57:31
  experience lines up with God's truth.
• 57:33
  For me. It's, it's, it's, it's where
• 57:39
  like, I know the sun is shining even though all I see is clouds,
• 57:42
  right? Even though I just see sickness
• 57:45
  and death. I know there's healing and
• 57:48
  resurrection, right? We know at the end of the day.
• 57:51
  Well, she's in heaven. I mean, that's what I believe
• 57:53
  and. She's more.
• 57:54
  Healed now than she'll even understand healing to be.
• 57:58
  And so not sense healing out, Yeah.
• 58:00
  And the answer for death is not healing, it's resurrection.
• 58:02
  Yeah, yeah. So she and absolutely and and
• 58:05
  the healings in this life I really just a a sign of the
• 58:10
  Kingdom breaking into the world and of God renewing all things
• 58:15
  and a sign of this redemption. We're called to really contend
• 58:21
  to make it on earth as it is in heaven.
• 58:24
  His will be done. And when it's about his will,
• 58:29
  when remember that story in the Gospels when the leper asked
• 58:34
  Jesus, if you will, you can make me will, right?
• 58:38
  If you, if you're willing. And Jesus says I am willing or I
• 58:42
  do, will it right? It's so good.
• 58:44
  Yeah. Pope Benedict said that in that
• 58:47
  I am willing is God's embodied will to heal always and
• 58:54
  everywhere. It's always yes.
• 58:55
  It's always yes. He desires all men to be saved.
• 59:00
  Doesn't mean all are. He desires all men to be healed.
• 59:05
  I mean that word Sozo. Saved, healed, made whole,
• 59:08
  delivered, protected. He wants all of that for his
• 59:11
  children. But and, and I'm playing, not
• 59:14
  playing devil's advocate, that's not the wrong phrase for this.
• 59:17
  But you know, in that case, it's someone else's will wasn't
• 59:21
  aligned with God and God gave them the freedom to choose and
• 59:24
  they've choose not to be with him, right?
• 59:25
  The person who chooses not to be saved.
• 59:28
  But what about the person who wants to be healed?
• 59:31
  But their healing doesn't come. Their healing wants to be.
• 59:33
  Saved, like, can't seem to find it.
• 59:35
  Yeah, it's. So all I got to say is I don't
• 59:39
  know whole lot. I really don't know much.
• 59:43
  I have such limited sight and understanding to these things.
• 59:48
  But I am not afraid to hold this all in tension and to know that
• 59:54
  God is good and that God wants to heal because when God's
• 59:58
  present, healing is always happening, right?
• 1:00:02
  And so I really hold my. The challenge is we often create
• 1:00:05
  theology around our lack of experience and but when we look
• 1:00:11
  at scripture sometimes and then we can't, we find contradiction
• 1:00:14
  with ourselves. I mean, Jesus didn't actually
• 1:00:17
  say pray for the sick. He just said heal them.
• 1:00:19
  And that also encompasses doctors who in the way that they
• 1:00:25
  can heal. Padre Pio started hospitals even
• 1:00:28
  though he healed people supernaturally, right?
• 1:00:33
  Is it could it be there? And you know, I remember someone
• 1:00:36
  telling me this or maybe many times I've been told this in
• 1:00:38
  different ways, but that if we think too much about someone
• 1:00:42
  else's suffering, or I think about something horrific like
• 1:00:44
  the Holocaust or a genocide, right.
• 1:00:46
  And I just you hear these horrible stories about just the
• 1:00:49
  pure, sheer evil that exists in the world, abortion.
• 1:00:52
  I mean, thinking about these, the children harmed and like you
• 1:00:55
  could go down. You can spend your life
• 1:00:58
  thinking, reflecting, immersing yourself in the suffering that
• 1:01:02
  has happened to this point. And it's an endless whirlwind of
• 1:01:05
  just horror, right? But the Holy Spirit works in the
• 1:01:09
  now as he has throughout hell history, of course, but it we
• 1:01:14
  can't take on someone else's suffering in the past without
• 1:01:17
  because God's grace isn't in that in that moment for us,
• 1:01:19
  right. So gets into.
• 1:01:20
  A whole other thing. Yeah, like it's the God's grace
• 1:01:23
  is here with us now, right. So if we imagine the suffering,
• 1:01:26
  the future, dwell in it in the past, think about someone else's
• 1:01:28
  suffering, you know, he's with us here in the now.
• 1:01:30
  This is what he's offered us. So my point here is you see the
• 1:01:34
  miracles, you see the consolations, you see the fruit
• 1:01:37
  of the Spirit. Now we're talking the fruit like
• 1:01:39
  peace and joy and hope and these things.
• 1:01:41
  It's hope of fruit. Hope.
• 1:01:42
  Yeah. It's.
• 1:01:43
  A gift of the Spirit. Yeah, sorry, I guess
• 1:01:45
  technically, but you you receive it in the now.
• 1:01:49
  And so that's always given me my consolation because otherwise
• 1:01:53
  it's just too it's crushing. It's completely crushing.
• 1:01:57
  Totally and and and people are suffering and so many people it
• 1:02:01
  can feel like the glass is half empty for many or the the world
• 1:02:06
  is more suffering than good. Or you think, where was God,
• 1:02:09
  right? Where was God when that was
• 1:02:11
  happening to that person? Yeah, what was young Calvary
• 1:02:14
  exactly? Exactly.
• 1:02:17
  But He, he is there, was there, but we can't always see it.
• 1:02:21
  We're not in it with them. So live your own life.
• 1:02:24
  You know, you can't think about God in the worst circumstances
• 1:02:27
  that exist over here and question Him when you're not
• 1:02:30
  even. There's so much more to that
• 1:02:31
  circumstance that you're not in. I mean, that's kind of.
• 1:02:34
  So you're talking about like even anxiety and the impact of
• 1:02:37
  fear on us and how faith does kind of conflict with that,
• 1:02:42
  right? Yeah, I mean, that's maybe the
• 1:02:44
  heart of that. Yeah.
• 1:02:45
  It's it's trusting that God is in the worst places and moments.
• 1:02:50
  I'll say that. And and trusting that he will be
• 1:02:52
  for you. Right that he.
• 1:02:54
  Come what may and like for the for the example I used earlier
• 1:02:57
  of this beautiful woman Jessica Hannah that God and I know her
• 1:03:00
  husband says this like God was there is there they're all of
• 1:03:04
  it. Totally.
• 1:03:06
  But it's hard for someone else looking at it to see it from a
• 1:03:09
  distance when you're not in it. And that's why we have to.
• 1:03:12
  We have to trust enough to live it in our own lives, day by day.
• 1:03:15
  Yeah, yeah. And that's where we really seek
• 1:03:20
  a spirituality that's not just actions devoid of real
• 1:03:24
  substance, but that it has an impact on how we live our life.
• 1:03:29
  That it, it really does have that there is power in the
• 1:03:32
  gospel to, to give people a, a peace the world can't
• 1:03:37
  understand, right? We, we have to believe that and,
• 1:03:40
  and ultimately joy is what motivates us anyways.
• 1:03:43
  The reason why we pray is because there's something
• 1:03:45
  rewarding about it at some level.
• 1:03:47
  You know, we need the fruits of the spirit.
• 1:03:51
  We, we seek the fruits of the spirit.
• 1:03:52
  The whole world cries out for the Spirit of God, right.
• 1:03:58
  And in our own lives. Yeah, like day-to-day.
• 1:04:04
  You you mentioned anxiety or, or, or this idea of looking at
• 1:04:07
  the future and and and feeling what could happen.
• 1:04:10
  Even I'd say that that fear is false evidence appearing real.
• 1:04:15
  It's it sees a threat in the future.
• 1:04:19
  But faith in the positive way that we use faith.
• 1:04:23
  Faith sees the promise ahead. Sometimes faith doesn't remove
• 1:04:27
  an obstacle, but it shifts the attention.
• 1:04:31
  And I think so often, like when we when we stop being impressed
• 1:04:35
  by a problem, we begin to breakthrough.
• 1:04:40
  And so faith has a renewing effect in the mind, I think, and
• 1:04:45
  in the relationship with God as we walk out our life of faith
• 1:04:48
  with Him, where it significantly impacts our lifestyle in every
• 1:04:53
  way. But again, there's these
• 1:04:55
  empowerments on top of that that we get to walk with and and
• 1:05:00
  enjoy. I mean, yeah.
• 1:05:05
  Have you seen healings? Oh yeah, hold time.
• 1:05:09
  Tell me, tell me the craziest story.
• 1:05:11
  Craziest story? Well.
• 1:05:14
  Or two, one or two of them. Yeah.
• 1:05:17
  Well, like that was clear evidence of the supernatural.
• 1:05:20
  So my testimony is your testimony is all of our
• 1:05:23
  testimony. I like to say I belong to a
• 1:05:25
  church where we see a lot of healings that happen.
• 1:05:27
  You know, it doesn't have to be your own testimony.
• 1:05:30
  This is what God does. It's about him, not about you in
• 1:05:32
  some way, right? And we've seen a lot of healings
• 1:05:37
  in our among our students. One of the craziest ones we saw
• 1:05:43
  few years ago. Now, three years ago at one of
• 1:05:45
  our our big regional conferences, we saw a guy who
• 1:05:49
  had like 6 inches on his arm that just grew out.
• 1:05:52
  Just staying in prayer with him. 6 inches on his arm grew out.
• 1:05:57
  You mean like he's always had the condition or he?
• 1:05:59
  He he so yeah, he was an accident when he was a kid where
• 1:06:03
  and then it stunted the growth I think of his arm, but I I wasn't
• 1:06:09
  directly involved in that prayer, but actually my office
• 1:06:13
  administrator at the clinic, she was she prayed for the guy with
• 1:06:16
  a few other. Students so one arm shorter than
• 1:06:18
  the other. He's at this conference and then
• 1:06:20
  he gets his arm grows with. His arms and stuff so you know,
• 1:06:23
  we have precedence. I've seen legs grow out that
• 1:06:26
  were like significantly shorter and things I've seen personally
• 1:06:31
  cancer tumors disappear suddenly.
• 1:06:35
  I personally have seen broken bones immediately better.
• 1:06:41
  I personally I've prayed for secular people in at at a bar or
• 1:06:46
  at a hotel or at different places and yeah, seen
• 1:06:51
  instantaneous miracles. But that's often just an
• 1:06:55
  attention grabber by the Lord. There's often this.
• 1:07:00
  I mean, the number one reason why people were amazed was
• 1:07:03
  because of healings and gospels. And they trailed.
• 1:07:05
  After Oh my God, Exactly. Exactly.
• 1:07:08
  But he's like, this is not the end game.
• 1:07:10
  But he didn't correct him on that.
• 1:07:11
  He had no problem being known as the healer, he just wanted to be
• 1:07:15
  what they he knew they needed him, right?
• 1:07:20
  But sometimes you ran away from them too.
• 1:07:22
  He had great boundaries. Yeah, he had great boundaries.
• 1:07:25
  Yeah, he had great boundaries. He knew his mission, but he was.
• 1:07:30
  He also knew that the Holy Spirit wanted empower others to
• 1:07:33
  meet those people using his. Wow.
• 1:07:36
  So I mean, where'd those names come from?
• 1:07:40
  You know, the one you've named the 12.
• 1:07:41
  He talked to the father about who, who that who, who is in
• 1:07:44
  God's plan, right? So we all have a part in that,
• 1:07:49
  right? But podcasts are interesting.
• 1:07:53
  We're kind of rambling all over this is like, this is like.
• 1:07:57
  Is it rambling? Yeah, I think it's great.
• 1:08:00
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• 1:08:47
  So but you were saying you've seen all these miracles and
• 1:08:50
  you've seen all these healings. I guess my next question would
• 1:08:53
  be, so we should ask like you were saying earlier, we should
• 1:08:55
  ask for the healing. We should ask for.
• 1:08:57
  Why not? It would be We should always ask
• 1:09:00
  for it. Right.
• 1:09:00
  It'll be immoral to not seek health.
• 1:09:03
  You ask your doctor, ask Jesus first.
• 1:09:06
  I mean, it says in Serac 38 that even the the sermon of a doctor
• 1:09:10
  or the medicines that they create out of the earth are from
• 1:09:13
  God. So it's all from the Lord, and
• 1:09:15
  so we want to make sure that He's first always.
• 1:09:18
  So how does someone know if they have the power to heal someone
• 1:09:21
  through God? Like what?
• 1:09:22
  What? What should be some of the
• 1:09:24
  discernment principles that someone should use if they see
• 1:09:27
  they know someone who's sick mentally, physically, they
• 1:09:30
  really want their healing. They love them.
• 1:09:33
  I know. They want to put the hand on and
• 1:09:35
  pray for healing, but they also don't want to like, overstep or
• 1:09:38
  they don't want to presume. So this gets into you go.
• 1:09:41
  Well, two things. One, it's not so much a matter
• 1:09:46
  of if God wants to heal, but how he wants to heal, right?
• 1:09:52
  Sometimes a doctor will put you on bed rest or do surgery to
• 1:09:57
  damage something in order to heal something, right?
• 1:10:01
  And we're body, soul, spirit, God wants to heal the whole
• 1:10:04
  person, right? And he can use everything from
• 1:10:09
  demonic affliction to sickness, physical sickness, right?
• 1:10:13
  And I mean, God knows, sometimes I've actually needed to get a
• 1:10:17
  good cold to slow down sometimes in my life.
• 1:10:21
  To change your life, yeah. Wow, You can pay attention to my
• 1:10:24
  diet. And so sometimes, Yeah.
• 1:10:26
  I mean, again, God, how do you want to heal?
• 1:10:29
  What is this? What's going on?
• 1:10:31
  I'd like to say that pain is good pain.
• 1:10:35
  Pay attention inward now. It gives you.
• 1:10:38
  It's an alert to show you where to look, where to begin looking.
• 1:10:41
  If I step on a thorn, I want to feel it so I can find out where
• 1:10:46
  and why any kind of suffering it, it draws attention, right?
• 1:10:54
  And but God wants to bring about healing.
• 1:10:55
  He wants to bring about this healing of the whole person
• 1:10:57
  though. And so sit with sickness.
• 1:11:02
  Sometimes it's the supernatural thing.
• 1:11:05
  Sometimes I've seen people who have been healed of of symptoms
• 1:11:09
  of conditions from things that are related to their poor diet
• 1:11:13
  or their poor lifestyle, and either the thing stays away or
• 1:11:17
  things can come back in people's lives.
• 1:11:20
  Because they didn't change. And whether it's because they
• 1:11:22
  didn't change or again, like God, what are we following him
• 1:11:26
  or, or we just want like a pill to change our problem, right?
• 1:11:29
  Like if we want relationship with him, well, he wants to
• 1:11:32
  build us up in every way, you know, in all the dimensions of
• 1:11:36
  our life. And so it can be relevant to
• 1:11:42
  seek medicine or nutrition or whatever else, right?
• 1:11:44
  As part of healing, to seek therapy as part of healing.
• 1:11:49
  But I, I do think that God wants to supernaturally heal people a
• 1:11:53
  lot more than we realize. I mean, there's times with the
• 1:11:59
  apostles where it literally says they all were healed.
• 1:12:03
  They all were healed, not just some, they all were healed.
• 1:12:07
  And that happened all the time for Jesus, whether it was a boy
• 1:12:11
  with epilepsy caused by some spirit of infirmity or whatever
• 1:12:14
  it might, might have been like, like when it was time for the
• 1:12:18
  gospel to be proclaimed, you know, did power came forth from
• 1:12:24
  the Holy Spirit? And yeah, I really do believe
• 1:12:28
  that, especially when it comes to evangelization.
• 1:12:31
  God wants to heal so much more than we realize.
• 1:12:34
  He's trying to convince us that he wants to heal more than
• 1:12:37
  anything. I actually find more healing
• 1:12:40
  happen with non believers than with believers.
• 1:12:44
  Yeah. Like at a restaurant I was the
• 1:12:47
  other day and I, I knew immediately in my heart kind of
• 1:12:52
  like like a prayer sense that my wait, my waiter had a had a
• 1:12:58
  dream the night before and didn't know how, but it's just a
• 1:13:02
  thought I had that I'm learning to be open to, right.
• 1:13:05
  And in this school, as I'm learning too, in the school, the
• 1:13:08
  spirit. And so I asked him, hey, did you
• 1:13:11
  have a, a dream last night? And the guy's name's like
• 1:13:14
  Daniel. Yeah, Daniel.
• 1:13:19
  And so, yeah, I had a dream about basketball.
• 1:13:22
  And I asked him, well, that's interesting.
• 1:13:23
  Like, well, tell me about the dream.
• 1:13:25
  And he was surrounded in this, He was playing basketball and
• 1:13:28
  he's in the stadium surrounded by all these people and they're
• 1:13:31
  cheering him on and he's playing basketball.
• 1:13:33
  And I asked him like, well, was basketball significant to you?
• 1:13:35
  And he's a waiter, right? Like, yeah, I used to be a
• 1:13:37
  basketball coach until I hurt my back and I, I asked him, well,
• 1:13:42
  you know, are you a believer? Do do you pray or really?
• 1:13:45
  He's Christian, doesn't go to church, hasn't been, hasn't been
• 1:13:48
  a while. I said, well, seeing that that
• 1:13:51
  meant something to you, like you love basketball and that sucks
• 1:13:55
  that you can't play anymore. Can I just say like a 10 second
• 1:13:58
  prayer for you, right. I was yelling, I was actually
• 1:14:00
  with a student and I and I told them I, I said, I can do that.
• 1:14:03
  I'm like, you pray for them 10 seconds.
• 1:14:05
  Go ahead, do it. Yeah, Activation, yeah.
• 1:14:09
  And they put their hand on the back.
• 1:14:11
  Thank you, Lord just prayed for healing.
• 1:14:12
  Very simple. What what is this?
• 1:14:15
  I mean, we got students who are like nurse practitioners,
• 1:14:17
  doctors and others like simple little thing like what's that
• 1:14:21
  going to do? Right?
• 1:14:22
  But that guy went from a level 8 pain to a four.
• 1:14:26
  And he was so shocked. And then I said, oh, can we pray
• 1:14:29
  again? You know, Jesus prayed for a
• 1:14:30
  blind man twice. So couldn't pray again, you
• 1:14:32
  know, prayed again and his his back pain completely went away
• 1:14:36
  in that moment, in that moment, 30 seconds at a restaurant.
• 1:14:40
  And then in that moment and even just to encourage him like you
• 1:14:44
  know, God sees you, he loves you like he gave you that dream.
• 1:14:47
  He saw we were going to see you today.
• 1:14:49
  Like he cares about you. Bring that to him.
• 1:14:51
  Ask God what basketball means in your life.
• 1:14:54
  It's like it means something. And he and God doesn't neglect
• 1:15:00
  his children. When any parent sees their kids
• 1:15:03
  sick, you do everything you can to bring healing.
• 1:15:05
  And Jesus ultimately brought healing by putting it, by
• 1:15:07
  bringing it upon himself on the cross by stripes, we're healed.
• 1:15:12
  You know, like already paid for it.
• 1:15:15
  Yeah, should so beautiful. If someone is living with the
• 1:15:19
  spirit, they get these little inspirations.
• 1:15:21
  They're trying to be open, but sometimes it kind of falls like,
• 1:15:26
  you know, and that's OK 'cause like my, I guess my.
• 1:15:28
  Moments. Yeah.
• 1:15:29
  But I guess my question for you is, like, that happened.
• 1:15:31
  That's beautiful. Clearly God is at work in that.
• 1:15:33
  You know, that was probably a important milestone for that
• 1:15:36
  man's faith journey, and maybe we'll be part of an impetus to
• 1:15:39
  get him in deeper relationship with Jesus.
• 1:15:40
  We hope. But let's say how many times
• 1:15:43
  have you done something like that where, yeah, kind of was
• 1:15:46
  like, OK, like nothing seemed to happen apparently, but you still
• 1:15:51
  were like, I was supposed to do that regardless, even though you
• 1:15:53
  didn't get to see the fruit, I guess is what I'm saying.
• 1:15:56
  I mean, there's the majority of times I've prayed and people
• 1:16:00
  don't actually get, I don't see the healing.
• 1:16:02
  You don't get to see it every time.
• 1:16:04
  There's a guy. I think that's important 'cause
• 1:16:07
  like, I think someone, especially a newer Christian or
• 1:16:09
  just a Christian who's not as activated in this way yet, like
• 1:16:13
  walking in relationship this way, yet there can be an
• 1:16:16
  expectation of like, oh, I better see like the fruit, you
• 1:16:18
  know, But you might not see it, right?
• 1:16:21
  But you're still supposed to believe it.
• 1:16:23
  Right, and and hold your experience in tension with
• 1:16:28
  what's true about God and who he says he is, you know, because
• 1:16:33
  these signs will accompany those I believe, right.
• 1:16:35
  And I mean, I I think about a guy named Todd White, who I
• 1:16:41
  mean, he's got some really anti Catholic stuff, right.
• 1:16:46
  I think his the witness of his ministry is pretty incredible.
• 1:16:50
  He just St. Evangelization started off.
• 1:16:52
  Doing. Oh, you read the switchblade?
• 1:16:53
  No, no, that's a different guy. Yeah, OK.
• 1:16:57
  The cross on the switch blades. Oh, yeah.
• 1:16:59
  All right. Talk about newer, OK, you know,
• 1:17:03
  born again kind of Christian, such a, such a love for Jesus.
• 1:17:09
  He talks about how he prayed for about 400 people before he ever
• 1:17:13
  saw his first healing. Wow.
• 1:17:16
  And if you knew it would take 400 people to pray for before
• 1:17:20
  you saw one healing, I mean, would you pray for 400 people if
• 1:17:25
  you didn't know it was going to take 400 and you're at like 399,
• 1:17:29
  at what point do you get discouraged?
• 1:17:30
  Right do. You know what healing he saw at
• 1:17:32
  400, Does he? Yeah.
• 1:17:35
  He shares a story of actually where he got a word of
• 1:17:36
  knowledge, something about their condition he couldn't know.
• 1:17:39
  And when he said it, it just kind of gave him faith in that
• 1:17:42
  person. Faith or whatever, whatever
• 1:17:44
  reason. Words and knowledge are often
• 1:17:46
  connected with healings. Yeah, so, but after that it's
• 1:17:52
  like his shadow falling on on people when they're healed
• 1:17:55
  sometimes like just the floodgate of healing grace is
• 1:18:00
  just flowing in his life now. And I think about that cause
• 1:18:03
  again, I mean, healing is, is such a hot topic and when it
• 1:18:07
  comes to, to ministry, right, the theology of healing is so
• 1:18:14
  sometimes I can feel like mental gymnastics cause we, we have a
• 1:18:18
  theology of redemptive suffering and we actually have classes on
• 1:18:20
  redemptive suffering and overcoming discouragement in the
• 1:18:24
  encounter school. Because, I mean, even the
• 1:18:27
  apostles couldn't heal everyone, right?
• 1:18:31
  And there was a boy that they couldn't heal and that they
• 1:18:35
  brought to Jesus. If you remember Jesus, though,
• 1:18:39
  he rebuked them, you're faithless and perverse
• 1:18:41
  generation. He kind of appealed to their
• 1:18:43
  thinking, their their mindset, or their the purity of their
• 1:18:47
  faith. Like they didn't have enough.
• 1:18:51
  Yeah. And then I said, well, this kind
• 1:18:52
  comes out by by. Prayer.
• 1:18:53
  Fasting. Some, some people say fasting
• 1:18:56
  was added in, whether it's there or not, either.
• 1:18:58
  Either way, both prayer and fasting are about creating space
• 1:19:01
  for relationship with God. And what were they doing when
• 1:19:04
  they came to Jesus? They're talking to God, going to
• 1:19:06
  God. That's prayer.
• 1:19:07
  He literally was modeling what they needed to bring deliverance
• 1:19:10
  to that person. Go to him sometimes.
• 1:19:14
  Yeah. Because when our our our same
• 1:19:18
  cookie cutter laying hands or, you know, Benny Hinn's coat or
• 1:19:21
  whatever is not working, or Paul's handkerchiefs mailing to
• 1:19:24
  people or the oil's not working, you know, or the sacramento's
• 1:19:28
  not working or that's not working.
• 1:19:30
  Like we have to go to him, you know.
• 1:19:34
  And I think when we go to the Lord, like there's times I've
• 1:19:40
  prayed for people and I do strongly sense that the Lord is
• 1:19:45
  calling them home. Wow.
• 1:19:48
  But there are sometimes where sometimes I feel like the Lord's
• 1:19:51
  almost like provoking me in that where it's like, Lord, are you
• 1:19:56
  treating me like the woman who's asking for healing for their
• 1:19:59
  daughter and you're and you're like putting them off like
• 1:20:02
  that's not it's not right to get the children's bread to dogs.
• 1:20:05
  Like try hard or pray, Trust more.
• 1:20:07
  Yeah, or, or like that's not for you or in this situation, right?
• 1:20:12
  Sometimes we put words in God's mouth as if he's saying that to
• 1:20:15
  us. Sometimes he's drawing out
• 1:20:17
  faith, sometimes he's doing something more.
• 1:20:21
  The refiners fire. Ah, he's just so good.
• 1:20:24
  So look at him. Yeah.
• 1:20:25
  And yeah, he's so profound that he healed every single person
• 1:20:30
  that came to him for for healing every single person.
• 1:20:33
  He didn't. He didn't run after everyone
• 1:20:35
  that he did healing. Well, and he also ran away from
• 1:20:37
  some people who did, but once they got to him, like the woman,
• 1:20:41
  like the. Well, like the.
• 1:20:43
  Woman touched his, the woman who touched the, you know, and he
• 1:20:45
  says who touched me and she gets healed, right.
• 1:20:49
  But it is interesting, like you say, like he did he like
• 1:20:52
  everyone who got that close up in his face, he, he did it for
• 1:20:55
  them. But there's some people who
• 1:20:57
  literally would follow him around, you know, all of Samaria
• 1:21:01
  or wherever he would be. And he would just, he'd peace
• 1:21:04
  out sometimes, like he said, he had boundaries to pray or to
• 1:21:07
  rest or to prepare for his ultimate mission to die for, to
• 1:21:12
  die for our sins. But it's it, it's so mysterious.
• 1:21:15
  It's so human on one level, but it's also so mysterious.
• 1:21:18
  Isn't it? Yeah.
• 1:21:18
  Like prophet's not recognized in his hometown or there was plenty
• 1:21:23
  of kids that were sick from school in Nazareth that Jesus
• 1:21:26
  did not, you know, have a play date with and just heal him.
• 1:21:30
  Yeah. Such.
• 1:21:34
  AI think about Romans 828 though.
• 1:21:36
  Yeah, that he works all things for the good of those that love
• 1:21:39
  him called his purposes that even that line, right.
• 1:21:45
  I like to think that our faith, we have a lot of truths in
• 1:21:48
  Scripture that there are depths of it feeling true, it being
• 1:21:55
  true for us personally, if that makes sense.
• 1:22:01
  Like if God truly does work all things for the good, and we
• 1:22:05
  believe that, then we wouldn't be as worried.
• 1:22:10
  We wouldn't have regret either. We'd trust that that all fit
• 1:22:14
  into God's master plan, right? So there's a lot of scripture,
• 1:22:20
  whether it's on healing or on trust that we need to more
• 1:22:24
  deeply activate or whatever, right?
• 1:22:27
  Like live personally until the full stature of the word of God,
• 1:22:32
  Christ, right, even a lot like that Romans 828, right?
• 1:22:37
  There's, there's more, there's more.
• 1:22:41
  And God gives us sacraments, sacramentals, friends, family,
• 1:22:45
  every, every means necessary to help us.
• 1:22:49
  And that's what it's about, right?
• 1:22:52
  So. So encouraging.
• 1:22:56
  Yeah, I want to. We've got to do this again
• 1:22:59
  because I want to talk about spiritual warfare.
• 1:23:01
  And you're writing a book on that.
• 1:23:03
  Yeah, so everyone listening, we're going to talk about this
• 1:23:05
  book in the future and get to that.
• 1:23:07
  But how can people find your school and your your work?
• 1:23:12
  Yeah. So professionally, if they have
• 1:23:15
  questions for me, you can contact me through the clinic,
• 1:23:19
  the virus clinic, or through Encounter Ministries.
• 1:23:24
  They can pass any word along. In Los Angeles area, we do have
• 1:23:30
  the satellite campus that will be starting up again in
• 1:23:33
  September. Have an event coming up in
• 1:23:35
  August, the summer intensive. Just kind of a preview of what
• 1:23:39
  the first year will be like. Besides that, I have a website
• 1:23:45
  go to drseantobin.ca. Got some music up there and
• 1:23:50
  early stages for everything, writing and podcasts and all
• 1:23:54
  that stuff. So but really excited about the
• 1:23:57
  book Big God, little devil. A great title, yeah, and the
• 1:24:01
  approach to spiritual warfare deliverance.
• 1:24:05
  But yeah, well, future date, I think you.
• 1:24:08
  You told me earlier this is your first podcast.
• 1:24:11
  Yeah, I find that so hard to believe.
• 1:24:13
  You crushed it, first of all. And you're going to do a lot
• 1:24:17
  more podcasts in the future. I think if that's a prophesying
• 1:24:20
  here, I'm doing, I don't know, but you're going to do a lot
• 1:24:24
  more. And I, I have one more question
• 1:24:26
  for you. You said earlier, you know, your
• 1:24:28
  father in life, father-in-law passed away very quickly, very
• 1:24:32
  unexpectedly. I'm so sorry.
• 1:24:35
  And it sounded like if I understood you correctly, that
• 1:24:37
  kind of opened up this new discernment you and your wife
• 1:24:39
  are doing. And so things might be changing
• 1:24:42
  for you. Yeah, a little bit.
• 1:24:44
  Can you share what that is? What's next for you?
• 1:24:46
  Practically, yeah. So.
• 1:24:48
  And why that why that triggered that?
• 1:24:51
  Yeah, it's it was almost like the final catalyst for a change.
• 1:24:59
  I think for us, my wife and I almost feel like we have like an
• 1:25:04
  Apostolic call, like we start things and kind of, you know,
• 1:25:07
  pass it off. And and like she helped
• 1:25:09
  establish the Newman Center in Pasadena.
• 1:25:12
  And then now they have new leadership for it because she
• 1:25:16
  knew it wasn't her long term thing.
• 1:25:18
  You know, and even for us right now, we're discerning what is
• 1:25:22
  encounter school ministry for us as a as a couple, as
• 1:25:26
  individuals, as a couple, as a family, because it's a
• 1:25:29
  commitment every week during school, one night a week, every
• 1:25:34
  week during school, on top of a family life, on top of a
• 1:25:37
  practice, top of writing everything else.
• 1:25:39
  So it's really been more of a time, it challenges to rethink
• 1:25:45
  our our time in general, right, that mortality motivation.
• 1:25:51
  But I think just with the grief too, it's it's hard to
• 1:25:53
  emotionally show up sometimes when you're sad.
• 1:25:58
  We're going through different forms of grief and not that we
• 1:26:03
  grieve like, you know, some people in the world can we have
• 1:26:07
  faith in a different, different way that we grieve, but just
• 1:26:11
  been a lot adding up and projects like writing, writing a
• 1:26:17
  book on dream interpretation as well.
• 1:26:20
  Oh, that sounds good. Dream interpretation book.
• 1:26:23
  Let's do that podcast too. When that when that comes out
• 1:26:26
  OK. But yeah, and then this book on
• 1:26:29
  spiritual warfare, I, I know we didn't really focus on it as
• 1:26:33
  much today, but I am so passionate about this topic, my
• 1:26:39
  dissertation. You're coming back, Sean.
• 1:26:41
  If you if you didn't scare you away with this episode, we want
• 1:26:44
  you back to talk about your book when it comes out.
• 1:26:46
  Cool. But yeah, so just a lot, so much
• 1:26:49
  is on on the on the table that we just needed time and sensing
• 1:26:53
  the Lord's changing things for us.
• 1:26:55
  So. Well, I'm excited to see where
• 1:26:58
  he leads next. I'm very excited about the books
• 1:27:00
  and the next kind of season of what you're doing.
• 1:27:03
  Thank you. Thanks for having me.
• 1:27:05
  Thanks for coming on. Great work.
• 1:27:07
  It's awesome. Thanks so much for listening to
• 1:27:10
  this episode of the Lila Rose Podcast.
• 1:27:11
  It was awesome to have Doctor Sean Tobin in studio.
• 1:27:14
  We got to do that again. Let me know what you think of
• 1:27:16
  this episode. You can always e-mail me at
• 1:27:18
  lila@gtbmedia.com. I love to hear from you guys.
• 1:27:21
  And don't forget to follow us on locals.
• 1:27:23
  If you become a subscriber, you get to access special behind the
• 1:27:26
  scenes live streams just for our local subscribers.
• 1:27:29
  So go check that out at the link in the bio.
• 1:27:31
  Thank you and we'll see you next time.