Latest / The Bigger Stage w/ Matt Stone / Jeremy Sirota — The Lawyer Who Worked His Way Into Music (Suno, Merlin, Warner)
Transcript
- TBS - Jeremy Sirota (full edited version) === [00:00:00] Everyone here is smarter than me at this company. That's not what I banked my career on. I've never been the smartest person in the room, and so I've always had to pull at something else. It was sort of nonstop speeches to her. Like, every hour there was something else I had to convey. She broke at one point, I don't even know where she learned about TED Talks, and I was like, "Okay, wow, I really need to shift how I operate." [00:00:22] You have to have something to say. That's where you have to start. You gotta have a point of view. You gotta take a stand. If you don't have that, AI can help you, but if you don't have anything to say, there's nothing I can do to help you [00:00:47] Here's a question: What do brand design, tech law, Warner Music, Meta, and AI music startups all have in common? Well, the answer is today's guest. Jeremy Sirota has one of those careers that doesn't fit on a straight line, and that's kind of the point. [00:01:00] From tech lawyer to record executive at Warner Music, to pioneering global music licensing deals at Meta, to CEO of Merlin, where he doubled annual revenue from nine hundred million to one point eight billion. [00:01:12] That's kind of an important number these days, one point eight billion. And now Chief Commercial Officer at Suno, one of the hottest generative AI music companies on the planet. But what makes Jeremy's story perfect for the bigger stage is not the resume as much as the philosophy underneath it, and of course, the person that comes with it. [00:01:32] He believes the strongest companies aren't built by the genius in the room. They're built by leaders who create the room where genius happens. And it took his ten-year-old daughter at the time telling him mid-lecture, " Dad, no more TED Talks today," to really drive that home. [00:01:47] That moment cracked something open, and the way Jeremy leads, builds, and thinks about creativity as a business superpower is exactly what we're here to unpack. Jeremy, welcome to The Bigger Stage. [00:01:58] Uh, thanks so much for [00:02:00] being here. Uh, thank you for the detour into a little bit of my past where, uh, that moment with my daughter happened, in fact, during COVID, and she was doing schooling at home, it was just... I was working from home and just, it was sort of nonstop speeches to her. Like every hour there was something else I had to convey it just, she broke at one point. [00:02:23] I don't even know where she learned about TED Talks, uh, but she just cracked that moment on me and I was like, "Okay. Wow, I really need to shift how I operate." Uh [00:02:34] Do you remember what the, uh, your soliloquy was? What, what, what's, what was your soapbox that day? What was, what was the point? Do you remember? [00:02:43] Oh, I'm sure I, I always go back to, uh, Calvin and Hobbes and his dad when he takes him camping all the time, and this is gonna build character and, you know, you're gonna appreciate this later in life. So it was probably something of that nature of like, "You need to double down on [00:03:00] this because you don't understand how important what you're learning is, and this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." [00:03:03] And it was just, I probably just sounded like that teacher from the cartoon where it's just like wah, wah, wah, wah. Uh, but it could have insert any lesson that was probably meaningful and was accurate, but just form, the format, yeah, just all of it was off [00:03:21] Yeah, and, and, you know, we can easily overwhelm people with our genius sometimes, you know? It's like if they're not ready to receive it. Um, but I, I love the, the, the switch, the mental switch that you've made to be like, you know, create the room where people... It's more of a pull energy rather than a push energy is what I'm, in, in the terms from my last business. [00:03:40] It's like, you know, speaking at someone's like preaching at them. But then if you can create a room where people feel like they, their voice matters, right? I mean, it, it, that's kind of your, your point. [00:03:51] Well, and it, it-- I mean, you could go all the way back to my childhood when I used to be on the math team. I was on the math team, but I was the last person [00:04:00] selected. And, and then I joined, you know, when I-- I remember when I joined, uh, uh, the law firm, and it was just like this... I just had these moments in my life that really crystallized where in the room was smarter than me. [00:04:14] And this has happened throughout my career, even here at Suno. I, I, s- everyone here is smarter than me at this company. that's not what I've banked my career on, you know, achievements. Like, it wasn't because I was the smartest person in the room. I've never been the smartest person in the room. And so I've always had to pull at something else to be able to have and achieve what I've done, which by the way, also is just like a tremendous amount of hard work. [00:04:40] Like, anyone who just like things come easy to them or they're, you know, fabulously successful at like age 24, I'm always amazed at because I've spent 30 years working at this, and I'm still working 10, 12 hours a day [00:04:55] Uh, I, I can relate. I mean, entirely to that. [00:05:00] Let's actually go back, because one of the things that, you know, when, when, um, a mutual contact introduced us and we had our, our first conversation, uh, it was like, oh my God, okay, you went to law school too, and then a lot of lawyers end up doing other stuff it turns out. [00:05:13] You know, when you walk away from practicing law, suddenly, at least in my case, I met so many people who were either they had done it or someone they knew had done it. I was like, "Oh, I guess I'm not the only one, only one." But, um, w- w- what... I mean, you were doing, like, brand design, right? Before you did, went into law. [00:05:30] And then tell me about that. You know, we, this is called The Bigger Stage, but it also is about moving to new stages. It's sort of like using stage for everything. But, like, at that stage in your, in your life and your career, what prompted you to go, "I'm gonna go to law school"? [00:05:45] Hmm. Uh, well, so you're talking about I had, I had graduated school. Uh, I went to school in the Bay Area in California, and, uh, on a lark, I decided to move to New York. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had no job. [00:06:00] my girlfriend at the time was sort of like, "You gotta get out of here. You're not paying rent. [00:06:03] My roommates are tired of you being here." And so I didn't know what to do, but I had some friends in New York, so I moved there. And that brand designer was in fact a Flash design job, which I don't know if anyone uses Flash anymore, but that-- at that time, that was like the hottest, uh, design techniques. [00:06:24] And I got a job at this company called Juno Online, which is this like moment in history that, just for perspective, was an AOL competitor, an ISP. Uh, the two things that I did not know how to do when I showed up on day one of that job: Flash and design. [00:06:43] And [00:06:43] how did, how did you get the job? I mean, what, what... I mean, you're a good talker. Like, how did that work? [00:06:49] I, you know, I've, I've... Someone asked me this a while ago and it's, to, be honest, it was 30 years ago now, so it's a little blurry. But I'm pretty sure that, A, it was just a moment in [00:07:00] time, uh, in internet history where just, you know, people were desperate to bring people on. There weren't enough people for jobs, which, uh, sounds, now sounds insane. [00:07:10] Uh, but it was also just, I did my work. It, like, it wasn't just I showed up and I sort of, you know, BS'd my way into the job. Like, I went and really researched, I understood the company, I looked at their design, I put together a good thesis, uh, and then I just showed up, and same thing, day one I had to deliver a design. [00:07:29] I was probably there till 2:00 in the morning to make it work. Uh, and that's just how you go about doing it. Uh, and to your original question around, you know, what then made me go to law school, I had two simultaneously. One was I was debating whether I wanted to go into design, and every one of my friends who was an artist said, "Don't do it." [00:07:52] They're "Hey, go... If you wanna be, uh, creative, go buy a Leica camera, go take photos on the weekend," [00:08:00] which I ended up doing. and so then I was debating, I still don't know what I wanna do with my life, and I was debating, I wanted to go into maybe get a degree. I wasn't sure on what. I didn't really wanna get an MBA. [00:08:12] That was sort of a different era. There was a lot of like what they called the i-bankers, which I didn't really relate to that, you know, um, view on, uh, careers. But I thought law school, this is great. You can kinda do anything with this. Like, people take their law degree and go in any direction. Uh, of course, I had every one of my friends saying, "Don't go to law school." [00:08:32] So, so I was like, "Wait a second. Okay, I'm, can't be [00:08:35] Wait, you're, they're saying don't do this, but don't do that [00:08:38] Yes. A- and I simultaneously, when I was thinking about getting a PhD and doing academia, everyone was saying, "Don't do that." Uh, and so I had this like... And, you know, just I didn't have enough imagination at that time to envision other types of careers or paths. [00:08:55] a lot of what I was looking at were not quite totally traditional, but more traditional [00:09:00] paths. So at least I had the warning of law school, and I went into it with a very clear plan. I knew the type of law I wanted to practice, I knew the type of industries I wanted to get into, and I tried to envision not just like one, two, three years in the future, but decades into the future. [00:09:17] Like, where would this... I couldn't en- envision exactly the job, but I could envision the path, which was very helpful for me in all the decisions I made, even including the law school I went to, what I studied, what I did, and it all just kind of became a little bit of a jagged, but pathway for me [00:09:36] How-- what did you know about a legal career at that point? I mean, I went to law school and honestly, looking back, I knew a lot less than I realized I did. I was, I was m- far more influenced by television shows and a kind of a pop culture understanding of law practice. And then I went to law school, and then I started practicing law, and I was like, "Oh, this is, this is this is a little bit different." [00:09:57] Not entirely. But how about, did you have a family [00:10:00] member or friends or w- where did you get your knowledge of, of... You said you could visualize it. How, how come? [00:10:06] So I don't, I don't have any background in the family. Uh, maybe some like fourth, you know, degree cousins, but no one in the immediate family. My dad's an engineer, or civil engineer, and, uh, my mom's an artist. Uh, and in fact, both of them said not to go to law school too, just to complete the picture. [00:10:24] I mean, y- you really had no help from any direction about where to go. You just, all you heard was, "Don't do this." [00:10:31] I had a lot of headwinds. But, you know, headwinds and friction can be really helpful in life because it helps you to crystallize your thinking you're going against the grain. And to do that, you have to either, A, just have a lot of, uh, faith and conviction in yourself, B, which is what I did, you really have to kick the tires on that pathway. [00:10:53] Uh, what I did have is some friends who were copyright lawyers working with, uh, technology companies, [00:11:00] I've always had a lifelong interest in technology, uh, going back because my dad's an engineer. We used to, you know, had computers in the household from the earliest age, uh, back when they weren't just in our pockets. [00:11:12] you know, we used to tear apart computers and build them back together. I used to code, like early coding. I used to wait every month for the magazine to show up to give me the next thing to code on. And so I was just thinking about, you know, I was-- I originally had, um, a couple years in college where I was working, uh, to get a degree in philosophy or rhetoric. [00:11:32] And so you marry that up with technology and copyright law, and this was like the early internet age where it just all felt very interesting, dynamic, and everything was changing around it. And so I looked at that, I said, "Oh, maybe this could be my entry point to work in technology." Like, I don't know, I, I'm, I'm not a founder, I'm not, like a true coder. [00:11:54] Like, I haven't coded since Pascal, which if anyone even remembers what that coding language is, like kudos to [00:12:00] them. Uh, you know, I look at the folks that, you know, work at our company now coding, and it's just like, it's like The Matrix to me . Like, I'm amazed. They look, you know... And the way that artists look like magicians to me, coders look like magicians to me as well. [00:12:15] but I looked at the sort of things that I could do. and one of those was always just a lot of belief that I could visualize and look at situations in angles that others couldn't. And that's sort of been one of the ways that I've had success, is just being able to step back, look at things in different ways, tear it apart. [00:12:39] and that's sort of what law school actually, if you already have that, it actually enhances that. So for many people, they become lawyers and they just go down this like slipstream of like limited thinking. But for folks who have sort of more expansive ways of thinking, very lucky because a lot of the folks who were at the law firm were of that [00:13:00] ilk. [00:13:01] And so I had that training in law school, and then I get to the law firm, and I get to work with these people who also have these expansive ways of thinking. And I just got, in some ways, very lucky [00:13:11] Yeah, I'm looking back. I, I relate to that entirely. I mean, I remember my f- my f- the, the probably my two favorite courses were probably trust and estates and fed tax of all things, federal taxation, because that's where all the human stories are really nasty and interesting. You know, I mean, the, the, the, the dirt in life all comes out through taxes and, you know, when somebody dies. [00:13:32] And, and if you're a curious person, in my case, I just, I'm all about people and connection and that sort of thing. So for me, uh, and, and, and technology too, but people first always. And, um, I, uh, I, I think if you have a curiosity muscle, I think law school just becomes an accelerant. It, it just, 'cause you, you just... [00:13:52] And then you have the tools to be even more curious. Right [00:13:56] Well, and I had-- I'll tell you the thing that was actually really helpful for me in law [00:14:00] school, which, uh, is not what you're expecting me to say, is I started off my first two years and I worked hard. I-- Like, I worked every day. Like I... Once again, people can just study and just pass things easily. That is not me. [00:14:13] Like, I have to put the time in. But it, it led to a lot of success. I was, uh, top five or 10, I can't remember, in my class the first two years. Uh, I joined the Law Journal, which is like the prestigious journal that everyone wants to get on, and it was all going swimmingly for me. My second summer, I had an internship at Morrison & Foerster, which is a big law firm, which is where I ended up going to work. [00:14:36] Uh, everything was just going great. Third year, I wanna take the eas- absolute easiest possible classes. I just wanna coast at this point. I have my offer from the law firm. I'm set. So I take Film and the Law. Meets once a month for three hours, [00:14:55] yeah, baby [00:14:56] one paper to do. [00:15:00] Here's the thing. There were 13 classes. showed up for two of them. [00:15:06] Uh, I did not turn in any of the interims homework assignments, and a week before it was due, I tried to change the film that I was writing about. And Professor Terri Diggs, still remember her name to this day, uh, said she was gonna flunk me. She was gonna give me an F. uh, for those in the audience who may not know, uh, that would mean effectively my law career was over. [00:15:29] Uh, and there began, uh, m- my greatest negotiation of my life. Uh, and it didn't involve trying to BS my way through it. It involved, uh, humbling myself and taking ownership and apologizing and really being shown that, uh, your actions have significant consequences. And I ended up retaking the class. She taught it the next semester at a different law school in the city. [00:15:57] I had to commute far to get there. [00:16:00] Uh, ended up getting, I can't remember if it was an A or even an A-plus, and it was the greatest class I've ever taken in my life [00:16:08] Wow, the greatest mulligan. You know, the greatest do-over, I should say, you know? And the role of humility in getting you that chance, um, that is a lesson for all of us, you know [00:16:19] really-- I mean, I walked in third year with some swagger, which is not really my MO, but, uh, you know, so be it. Like, welcome to being young. Uh, and I walked out of third year just the utmost reconception about other people's time, you know, other people's value. Uh, which I, I-- it's not like I didn't have that in life, but it was a, a really important reminder at that stage of my life about that, and I still hold it to this day, Yeah, I always try to start with the other person, like where are they coming from? What, what is going on in their life? Uh, 'cause it's so essential [00:17:00] to trying to relate to the humanity around us [00:17:03] The level of grace and opportunity that we are afforded is a function of how much we, um, are able to think about others often, and That's a, that's a perfect, [00:17:12] perfect story. So, uh, from MoFo to music, uh, Morrison & Foerster to music, you end, uh... And 'cause we're not gonna go through your whole resume here. I mean, I wanna get to, like, you're such a cr- it's funny that you say, "I couldn't imagine, I couldn't visualize what exactly I wanna do, and so I went, and then I... [00:17:31] But I could visualize law, and that made sense." Um, I find you to be one of the most creative people that I've met in the last number of years. I mean, you're just, you just ooze a, a deep thinking and creativity all over the place. So, you know, your not being able to imagine it back then wasn't that you didn't ha- you lacked creative, uh, energy. [00:17:52] It's just the circumstances, and then you, you learned. So I wanna get to that, but you get into the music industry, [00:18:00] and I think you were at Warner at first, and then, and then you ended up at Merlin, yes? Or Meta. Meta, [00:18:06] Meta Meta for two [00:18:07] Right. [00:18:08] hire on the music team, and then to Merlin. [00:18:10] So your legal knowledge, licensing deals, the legal aspect, the creativity comes in. [00:18:17] When you first started working in music, um, what was the... Were you prepared? I mean, how much, you talked about not, you know, feeling like everyone else is smarter in the room, which is a great place to be. That, that is a high-growth environment. [00:18:31] You remember when you first got out of the, the direct practice of law, and now you were in an environment where you're working in, in the music business, um, what was that like for you and, and, you know, what, what did you learn about yourself in that process? [00:18:48] When I walked into Warner, I had been doing work for them for several years, uh, at the law firm. So we were one of their primary, um, [00:19:00] uh, firms they worked with. And I started off not in the way you would think. I actually started off doing all their outsourcing deals. Uh, so they were doing a lot of outsourcing of backend functions, uh, to India at the time. [00:19:12] So I was doing large scale outsourcing deals, then I was doing their first AWS infrastructure deal. Uh, so I didn't start anything remotely related to music when I first started working with them. But that slowly started to move over into they were doing more and more digital deals. 'Cause when I first started working with them, it was 2005, so this was still very early days in the digital, um, um, life cycle. [00:19:38] So started doing all these digital deals, knew their digital legal affairs team and their business development team, worked on all their earliest YouTube, Spotify deals. You name it, I did it. But when I went over to Warner, I joined, you know, this division called WIA, which was the artist and label services division, and it was my first sort of real kind of [00:20:00] job, uh, at a professional level. [00:20:02] Like, a law firm is not quite, uh, doesn't quite operate like a standard company. You know, it's a partnership, but it teaches you to be very service-oriented. So when I went to Warner, I was in this very service-oriented organization, so I was very, uh, clued into how that worked. I was not clued into is how it just worked, the dynamics, the politics. [00:20:27] When you're at a law firm, you have a project, you work on it till it's done, and then someone hands you your next project when you're an associate. Everything in a company is softer. And what I had more than anything else is I had a boss or multiple bosses incredible mentors to me, and I had people who invested in me to help train me to think and operate in a world that was unfamiliar to me. [00:20:54] Even just something very basic, which is the first time my boss told me, "Go walk the [00:21:00] halls." I was like, "What does that mean?" He's like, "Literally stand up [00:21:04] Yeah. [00:21:04] just wander around." I'm [00:21:06] Yeah. [00:21:06] like, "What's gonna happen?" [00:21:08] So what did, what happened when you did it? [00:21:10] I walk around, I, I bump into someone I hadn't seen in a while. We ended up talking. They shared with me something. [00:21:16] It turned out they were working on a project that they actually need help with, and they didn't realize they could come to me. So now I'm helping someone on a really important project and started building this relationship with them. walk by someone else's office. They're like, "Call me in." They hadn't seen me in a while. [00:21:33] They just wanted to say hi and see what's going on and see how I was doing. Uh, and I just started doing that more and more, and I built in almost every day just a half hour to an hour, as a former lawyer at a law firm where you bill by the hour just [00:21:46] That's lost money. [00:21:48] Yeah. Actually, it's lost time because you're gonna have to stay up later to make up for the lost billable hour. [00:21:55] Right [00:21:56] fact, that was probably the most important hour I spent during that [00:22:00] day it built trust, it built understanding, it built a-- I was able to communicate, uh, in these soft ways about how I could help people. So instead of them viewing the lawyer as the blocker or the person to avoid, in fact, I became the enabler. [00:22:19] How do I help you get done better, faster, save more money, make more money, you name it. And so between sort of teaching me some of these soft skills and also teaching what an in-house lawyer is and how they can help a business be better, like, those are incredible skill sets to develop. And, uh, maybe I would've gotten them, to, to them on my own, having a boss who was willing to invest in me in that way, uh, you know. [00:22:50] And then, so my first boss was a lawyer, my second boss at, at, uh, Warner was a non-lawyer. So just at every inflection point, I've had these people that [00:23:00] have really helped me to improve, to think differently, to support me, and that's been a huge accelerant in my career [00:23:08] That's amazing, and wow. I mean, to have multiple fantastic mentors. I've talked to Many people who are like, they can remember one, you know? But to have multiple, what a gift. I'm curious, what were you doing... I, I, I'm making a big assumption here. Many- when you're a f- an associate at a big law firm, even a smaller one, for most people, it's just all-encompassing, and it's kinda hard to, and especially in the first few years, it's hard to imagine even doing anything outside of just working. [00:23:36] I mean, but maybe that was you. I... And you're a hard worker, so I'm just assuming you spent a lot of time working. [00:23:42] Many [00:23:43] But at what point-- I mean, you're also super creative. What were you doing to feed your creative need? I mean, you're someone that powers, is powered by creativity at some level. So what, what were you doing outside of, or inside of work to, like, feed that creative, scratch the creative itch, I, I guess? [00:24:00] [00:24:00] Hmm. Oh, so I don't know if I've ever talked about this publicly before, 'cause I've never actually put it out there. But I actually created a book, uh, And it took me about three, almost four years, uh, and the book is called "Uninspired." And for my first year of the law firm, uh, for every, you know, just, uh, business days, Monday through Friday, I would take a photo every day, and every single photo I tried to create something new or original. [00:24:31] And I did it whether I was on vacation, whether I was traveling on the road. Uh, so I have whatever that math is, 210 photos myself. And so that was year one. And then I spent the next two or three years, 'cause I wanted to get, like, I think I w- maybe took a year off. I spent two years reflecting back the experience of being a lawyer. [00:24:53] And when I went into it, the reason I called it "Uninspired" is because I was concerned it was not going to be very [00:25:00] inspiring what I did, I needed to have something in my life that would feel inspirational. What I learned, was a really important lesson, is that inspiration, your lack of inspiration, is fundamentally a- about how you- your perspective into the world. [00:25:21] And so if you're gonna be uninspired, that is all, all on you. It has nothing to do with your environment. Because the... You know, so just the fact that I did this book, right? It actually was inspired by the job, right? What I did I found actually very inspirational. Many people... You know, I was a transactional lawyer, which meant I mostly did contracts and negotiations. [00:25:45] I actually think drafting is a really creative skill set, and it can get wonky, of course. Uh, but for the best lawyers out there, they are some of the most clever people with wordplay. Uh, [00:26:00] I actually found that really inspirational. Uh, trying to do negotiations, super inspirational because you're trying to, you know, it's, you're trying to understand the other side, you're trying to understand power dynamics. [00:26:11] You know, you're constantly thinking about how do you approach it. So there's, like, all these elements that as I went through this, uh, exploration of writing this, it made me totally reset my view about the role as a lawyer, but also more importantly, just the perspective you take into life. one of my closest friends who I met in law school, in fact, uh, he said it once to me 'cause I was complaining about going to this dinner I didn't want to go to, "Man, what are you complaining about? [00:26:40] don't worry about where you're going. Worry about what you bring with you." Uh, and it was just like, it st- I mean, it's, this was almost 25 years ago, and I still repeat that to this day [00:26:51] That is, that is gold. Uh, so if I'm hearing you right, you essentially engineered a process [00:27:00] to nurture your perspective [00:27:02] Yeah. That's right. Even just what I surrounded myself... I mean, it sounds so silly, but, you know, people talk about it these days, but what I had on my desk, I was constantly rearranging my office. I had artwork that I constantly kept changing. I made sure I kept books around me so that, you know, in the like two minutes I had free, I could stop and read something different. [00:27:25] Uh, so I just think it's a, it's the lack of imagination about how you can do things differently is the only thing that holds us back. Uh, don't get me wrong, I am sure there's many, many very, very boring jobs that are, no matter what you do, you can't sort of brain your way out into creativity. But, you know, I was listening to this, I'm, I'm blanking on the woman's name. [00:27:45] She was one of the Olympians from this year. Uh, and someone asked her this question about, about her and her process, and she's just like, "I'm in my head all the time." That's the challenge we have in this day and age, is like too many people are not in their heads enough. [00:28:00] And, you know, we were, uh, we were joking about this whole like raw dogging on planes, [00:28:06] Oh my God. [00:28:08] which is a whole [00:28:09] That's a whole thing, yeah [00:28:11] but we were talking about it about in the city, 'cause, you know, living here in New York, there's a lot of commuting and walking and, you know. [00:28:17] And we talked about like phones in pockets, no music, in your head. No, yeah, no podcast, no music, no phone. Just like letting your mind wander around. it's, it can be a little scary sometimes for people, especially when you're so used to being surrounded by sound or words all the time. Uh, you know, I'm guilty of, uh, cooking and just having a TV show on in the background just for like some ambient noise. [00:28:45] I, I, I always wonder at Netflix, like what percentage of Netflix watching is ambient noise? [00:28:51] It's gotta be huge. I mean, [00:28:53] the only thing bigger than that is the time spent looking at all the options [00:28:57] Yes. Yes. I would [00:29:00] love to have a number of time spent searching [00:29:04] And watching nothing in the end. Like going, "I give up." [00:29:07] And maybe they need to, like, gamify that. Maybe they [00:29:10] Oh my God. Get... [00:29:11] is part of it and make it into a game [00:29:13] Yeah, the problem is, is you'd have to track it, and then if you saw the actual energy you're putting into it, you would just be horrified by how much time you wasted go- you know, flicking through. Is that the genre I'm in the mood for? I don't even... What is that? That look... You know. Anyway. But I, I, I agree with you. [00:29:28] Like, um, I mean, I'm struggling with that too, 'cause I love listening to podcasts and walking. One of my greatest pleasures is cooking and having something on. Um, uh, for me, that one doesn't-- That one works for me. But when I'm walking around Manhattan... So I have a friend who's in real estate and who does it in Manhattan. [00:29:46] Uh, and so he knows everything about every building. And so when I walk with him, he's going, "Now see that building there?" And he starts giving me a whole history of it, who's lived there, and it's sort of a grounding thing. You know, you're, you're, you're [00:30:00] planted where you are. You're learning about the space that you're in, the history of it. [00:30:04] Um, I don't know, that technique has worked really well for me, 'cause it is so tempting to pop these things in my ear and just... And then th- there's a bit of separation. You know, it's, It's [00:30:15] Yeah [00:30:16] Maybe more than a bit. Yeah [00:30:18] Okay. So you wrote a book, and for the first time, you're talking about it publicly. [00:30:22] Thank you for debuting it now on the bigger stage. That's what it's all... I, I pride myself on almost every interview someone's like, "I've never talked about this before." I'm like, "Yes!" [00:30:30] I, I might have to-- I, I still haven't even printed it yet. It's, it's ready to be printed. I've shared a PDF with many people. Uh, we'll see. Maybe this is the, uh, impetus to get that [00:30:41] Maybe. [00:30:42] this will be the inspiration to publish "Uninspired." All right, so there you go. Um, I'm here all week, folks. Um, so fantastic. So you were-- I mean, this does not surprise me that you were engineering a perspective shift or a perspective, uh, improvement plan, you know, PI... [00:31:00] There's a PIP for you, perspective improvement plan. [00:31:03] That sounds about as corporate as you can [00:31:05] Yeah. Doesn't it? [00:31:06] Right? [00:31:08] I'm into it. Let's [00:31:09] Creativity turned into corporate jargon. We all love that. So, you know, Merlin, you've, you've, you know, you built there, y- all the licensing deals, global work, music, music, music, creativity. How, what, uh, w- I'm actually more interested now in how you've cultivated creativity moving forward. [00:31:27] Uh, after the book, what was your next thing? I suspect you've always been doing something on that plane. What are some of the other things you've done to cultivate creativity? [00:31:36] I was, uh, I was listening to this comedian, uh, Jimmy Carr recently, and one-- someone was asking him a question about how does he come up with all of his jokes. He's like, "They sh- you seem so clever. You have such great jokes. You have such a way with words. How do you do it?" And he said, "You need to stop sitting around waiting for inspiration and just put in the work."[00:32:00] [00:32:01] And I've always had a very similar philosophy about creativity, which is just do it. Just start. So many people get jammed up, like, I n- what's the best starting point, or I, I need to build this out better, I need to get better informed before I start. sometimes it gets me into a little bit of trouble 'cause I, I'll think out loud, I'll do things, and it, it... [00:32:23] As a leader, I have to be careful not to confuse people about what the intentions are. But I've just found momentum creates momentum. You write down one bad idea, you know what happens? You usually find five more bad ideas. But then [00:32:38] Eventually. [00:32:39] yes, the seventh is gold. And, and so for example, um, I love writing. [00:32:46] Um, it does not come easily to me. I was at a dinner with a bunch of, like, real, uh, authors, like people who've published multiple books. They're just like, they're like, "Yeah, I'll just sit down and write 100 pages today." I was like, [00:33:00] [00:33:00] What? [00:33:00] sit down and rewrite one page for like six hours. Uh, so I am-- this is like my way of saying, like, God bless all those people who can just, it just flows forth from them. [00:33:13] It flows from me, but it's all just work. what I've found is just exploring things. And so a lot of times the first thing I'll say is like, "That makes no sense." It's like, "Yeah, but I'm, think there's something there." And the second thing is like, gets closer. then the third thing is like, "Oh, wow, that's really good." [00:33:31] And so I just, I have s- I have a list I keep. I'm a big Trekkie nerd, so I call it the captain's log. Uh, [00:33:39] I love this. [00:33:41] And they sit there and I timestamp them because if they sit there for more than a year and I don't do anything with them, I just delete them [00:33:49] Wow [00:33:50] But you never know. Like, I've had things that have been on there for 11 months and suddenly it just clicks. [00:33:55] It's like, yeah, this thing on its own makes no sense, but I just learned this other thing and they tie [00:34:00] together. that is such a human superpower, is to tie two things that seem totally unrelated together to form something new and interesting. And that's the way I think about creativity and ideas and how I get inspired, is sometimes things seem... [00:34:16] Like your idea of the pip. There's probably actually something there. There's, [00:34:21] be. [00:34:21] there's-- I, I, [00:34:23] Yeah [00:34:23] you, if you just put it on your list, [00:34:26] Yeah. [00:34:26] months you're like, "Oh, actually I have this whole funny idea about corporate speak and blah, blah, blah." Like, I had this idea about uh, how I believe Slack is sort of like corporate TikTok [00:34:38] Oh, yeah. Oh, totally. Oh, that's good. Say more. [00:34:42] I-- But when I first started doing it, I was gonna write it as a LinkedIn post, which is where I spent a lot of my time just, like, exploring ideas to get feedback. And when I was starting to write it, it didn't make any sense. Like, it just didn't work written down. But you just say it to someone, and it just instantly kinda [00:34:58] So there's something there [00:35:00] That's the, there's... But you, it, it takes the work of writing to, like, craft it into something more powerful [00:35:07] You have to explore it. I love to throw out bad ideas to people to see how they respond. Uh, like even that's just like a fun exercise. Like, "Hey, I've been thinking about this thing. Can you make this worse?" Like, I always love the exercise, make this worse. [00:35:21] Make this worse. That is awesome. [00:35:25] Like, there's these fun, like... I, I, before I took on this new role, I was starting to like explore like what are some like creative codes to help people explore their inspiration and creativity? [00:35:36] Like there's just, there's certain methods that no matter who you are, whether you believe you are or not a creative human, we are all inherently creative. But some people just need more help with it. They need to... There's like a mental unlock, or they need some of these sort of methods about how to do it, there's just some very easy ways of doing it. [00:35:58] and that's, that's one of my favorite [00:36:00] ones. Like, let's like, "Let's find the worst way to solve this problem," is another one. It's just, it's instantly fun. No one's gonna be-- Like, you're gonna be competitive, but not in a competitive way of like I'm trying to showcase that my idea is better than yours. [00:36:15] Because then it's like, "Oh, I don't know if someone's already said this idea. Has this already been explored? Oh, the, the person Jane or Bob before me already said something that was so amazing, now I don't wanna say anything." you're trying to out-compete each other for a bad idea. You've suddenly just created this whole new dynamic that softens everything, and then it can lead into, first of all, you're exploring ideas you never would've talked about, which could lead you to think about something you might not have, never have done before. [00:36:44] Uh, I'll share one other story that I really love. There's this great thinker from the '70s and '80s, and still, still might be doing it today, called Edward De Bono, and he has this concept of lateral thinking. but the one example he uses a lot that just illustrates it so [00:37:00] well is Boeing hired him as a consultant they were really being challenged with fuel costs increasing because size and weights of planes, and they couldn't come up with any ideas about how to start reducing fuel costs. [00:37:12] so he shows up at this meeting, and it's all the senior executives and like engineers who've been doing it for like 40 years. And this is, by the way, a man who knows nothing about engineering or planes at all. He walks in, the first thing he says is, "Why don't you land the plane upside down?" And of course, everyone's-- Yeah, you're laughing and everyone's like, "That's crazy. [00:37:34] What are you..." You know, like everyone's like, "It's a riot. It's gonna break out." and they actually do the work to, you know, treat it seriously and explore the idea. Lo and behold, doesn't always happen, but sometimes there's, you know, um, magic that occurs when you do this. And they realized that if they made adjustments to how the flaps work about, you know, trajectory, altitude changes, they found a way to save something like 20 or 30% on fuel [00:38:00] costs just by thinking about things in a totally different way [00:38:05] Oh, man. Okay, this may seem like a hard pivot, but I'm actually, I'm building off of this 'cause you can handle that kind of thing. So [00:38:11] there's these [00:38:12] AI tools for writing now. Some of them are actually pretty good. But my biggest problem, and I shared this with one of the companies that asked me to come to s- to speak to their engineering team recently, um, that had 30 or 40 people, and they're all programming this tool, and it's incredible. [00:38:27] But I said, "Here's the problem, is the tool goes on," and I get it. It goes on and analyzes all of your writing from before [00:38:35] and then helps you write for the future. I said, "The problem is, is I don't want my past self in the future. I want a new and better version of it." How Do I get new ideas, new thinking, new ways of writing? [00:38:47] Because eventually, if we just keep looking back and then mixing in anodyne or average things, the, the median of everything else that's out there, you're gonna make something that's polished, grammatically pretty [00:39:00] accurate, following the same kind of formulaic flow. And I'm, first, I'm bored out of my freaking mind, but second, I think other people are too. [00:39:08] You know, we're sensitive to this stuff. So what you're talking about is really making, forcing yourself to get creative, really creative, looking at things differently. How are you managing... Look, you're working at a, an amazing AI company that's got creativity at its core. I've got so many family members that are like, "Oh, did you know I'm using, you know, this company's app to do this and that, and here's my YouTube channel with all this stuff." [00:39:35] So people are getting a lot out of it. But what is your mindset right now about, not your company, but just AI tools, how to use them in a way that preserves your ability to still be truly creative and not separated from your own words and your own thoughts? What, where, where are you finding balance? [00:39:57] 'Cause I guarantee you, you're doing a better job than [00:40:00] probably most people are at it. [00:40:01] Hmm. Uh, this is a really, really easy one. You have to have something to say. That's where you have to start. You gotta have a point of view. You gotta take a stand. You gotta be controversial. You gotta deep dive into something, because if you don't have that, AI can help you. Like, I use AI to, as a tool. Like, I get stuck on a way of saying something or, uh, my writing, I'm like, "This sounds really clunky." [00:40:32] I think this is passive voice. Is this a transitive adverb? Uh, it's been a while since I've [00:40:37] Transitive adverbs. You've just na- [00:40:40] you've just named the title of the podcast episode. That's gonna get everybody's attention. Go ahead [00:40:45] If that gets people excited, then I'm very curious [00:40:47] We have a very niche audience. [00:40:49] Indeed. Uh, so a lot of linguistics majors, clearly [00:40:54] Oh, we, we, we go to universities, small ones, and we find the linguistics department, and we find a [00:41:00] niche within the lin- linguistics department. It's... [00:41:02] it for the tour. Let's do [00:41:03] Yeah, it's really exciting. You should see the, uh, the cocktail hours we have. Anyway, go ahead [00:41:08] Yeah. So when I, when I was at, uh, Merlin, I worked with this gentleman to help me improve my writing because I- as I said, I'm not a great writer. I have to work really hard at it. And the first thing he said, he's like, "I can help you, and I will teach you some tricks, and I'll show you, like, what works and what doesn't. [00:41:28] if you don't have anything to say, there's nothing I can do to help you." And so that's the starting point, is have something to say. So I'll give you an example. I was down in Nashville a couple weeks ago, and I was at the Ryman Au-Auditorium getting a tour. for those who don't know the Ryman, it's called the Mother Church because just so much music has, has come out of there, so much has happened there. [00:41:52] The Grand Ole Opry used to be done there. You know, everyone from Johnny Cash to Wu-Tang Clan has performed there. [00:42:00] Like, when you stand on the stage and you look out at the seats, it's just like you can feel the history there. And it, it moved me. Like, I felt this emotion of like, wow, like this goes back all the way to the 1920s, and I didn't write about any of that. [00:42:18] I actually ended up thinking about why do people get into music in the first place, and who are they? And suddenly I'm standing in the Ryman Auditorium and I'm thinking about record executives and rights holders. and I th- and I had had conversations over years about why is it people get into music, and suddenly these things meshed together, and I wrote about those two things. [00:42:42] They had absolutely nothing to do with each other, and I married them together in a way that turned into a story that, uh, I just wrote about this like a week ago. It's like really resonated with people. But that's where I started with, and I used AI to help refine some of the [00:43:00] sentences, but all the structure, all the concepts, the point of view that I wanted to have, all had to come from me. [00:43:09] So when I think about AI tools and where they're most useful, is they amplify the person who has a story to tell, has a life experience to share, or has a point of view. it's really going to separate those people from everything you just said. Like, anyone can make something shiny and look nice and polished, but to have a point of view means you need to go spend time walking around your city for an hour, not doing anything but being in your head. [00:43:41] Uh, you need to read a book that is absolutely-- Like, here's another great one I love. Uh, two actually I'll give you. Uh, one is read books that have absolutely nothing to do with your job, your career, or your interests. Get a different point of view is so essential. Uh, like I love, I love doing that all the time. [00:43:58] And then the other one is, [00:44:00] uh, Wikipedia, Wikipedia roulette Uh, there's a couple sites out there that will do it for you. It just throws you to a [00:44:06] Just random Wikipedia pages [00:44:09] Yes. And I've learned about some random things that if you asked me what they were, I don't remember them at all, they got my brains, my brain and my neurons bouncing in different [00:44:19] Yeah. Stimulating, right, in different ways. Stimulating different parts of your mind too, uh, and making connections that you wouldn't have otherwise made. [00:44:27] Yeah [00:44:27] Yeah. [00:44:28] Okay. Well, wrapping up, we've only got a couple more minutes here, um, a- and there's a couple more threads I wanna pull. So, uh, what, uh, what would you consider... [00:44:39] Well, I wanna know your perspective on the definition of iconic. What, what do you, what is iconic to you? And, and are there any people that you think are sort of undersold icons out there that we should be paying attention to? [00:44:55] Hmm. That's a good one. Okay. Uh, uh, I'm blanking on the, [00:45:00] the Supreme Court justice's name in a very different context when he said, uh, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." [00:45:08] Let me try to answer the first one, what is iconic? Um, I tend to believe it doesn't happen in someone's lifetime. It can. Like, like I'm-- I don't know why, but immediately Whitney Houston comes to mind. Like, I almost believe she was iconic from the moment she first opened her mouth to sing. [00:45:26] Hallelujah, brother. She absolutely... And I, I don't know. I think Tina Turner, I would argue Tina Turner had a bit of that too. But anyway, go ahead. [00:45:33] Tina, the many artists [00:45:35] While she was living. I mean, she was an ic- you know, she was iconic from quite a while. Yeah. [00:45:41] David Bowie is another [00:45:43] Yeah [00:45:43] comes to mind. It's just-- So there are some people who just excel in one field, whether it's a singer, it's, it's, um, it's s- anyone in culture and arts. Like I tend to go to culture and arts because those things have so much emotion [00:46:00] to it, and emotion tends to sort of, um, uh, flow over time, right? [00:46:05] There's many sort of what you might think of as inventors, scientists, people who change the trajectory of the world. I don't know if I would put them in the same realm as iconic, [00:46:15] Mm-hmm. [00:46:16] Influential, you know, history makers. Iconic has this [00:46:21] Yeah. [00:46:22] And tell me more about that. Like, what is uniquely iconic? What is, what are the attributes of an iconic person? [00:46:30] Yeah. It's, it's definitely someone who sets a new standard. do something that you just didn't think was possible. They brought something forth that you just couldn't even imagine could have happened. And usually it seems completely obvious after the fact. You're like, "Yeah, of course. How have we not been doing this our whole lives?" [00:46:55] And, uh, I'm trying to think of someone outside of music who would [00:47:00] be that, uh, doesn't immediately come to [00:47:03] Let me throw something at you. So Simon Sinek, I, I-- The way I define it, I c- I'm trying to get an, a b- a better definition for people to start thinking about it because we keep hearing, "Oh, such an icon, such an icon." And my theo- my theory that I'm going with, it's the basis of my business, is, is that it's not, you know, Apple's Steve Jobs is an iconic business character. [00:47:25] No question about it. Icon, changed the way we see things. I think [00:47:30] number one, it has to transcend your industry. It has to be, have a deeper meaning where you would be invited to talk on a stage at an event that had nothing directly to do with your business or your authority lane, but your point of view, to your earlier point, you have such a strong point of view and such a unique way of delivering it that it transcends. [00:47:51] So if I think of that, I think of Simon Sinek's, um, you- uh, TED Talk or the YouTu- the video, his 12-minute video or whatever where he [00:48:00] does the circles, [00:48:01] where his message wasn't unique, but the way he delivered it was arguably iconic in the sense that it has shaped how people see why. [00:48:10] That's [00:48:11] Whether he's an icon or not, I don't know, but that moment was iconic. [00:48:16] And so, um, the, I don't know, that's sort of how I'm starting to explore it. I, I don't have the answer, but I'm, I'm really curious about what it really means and why it, why it matters or not. I think It matters actually. But I was just curious what- [00:48:32] in the way what you're saying is it helps people to do one of-- So if we use the Jobs and Sinek examples, you know, it either helps to fundamentally change the way people relate to their lives or each other, or it helps you to fundamentally shift how you think about life and approach it. And, uh, it's interesting 'cause Simon Sinek is incredibly impressive. [00:48:58] Uh, and, [00:49:00] uh, you know, I've s- similar to you, I've seen that speech. Everyone should go Google it and watch it. It's worth it. Uh, I don't know if I would put him as, like, right? Like, I would take, like, a Maya Angelou and be... That's iconic. Like, the way she worked with words and helped people reinterpret their relationship to certain subjects. [00:49:26] I, I don't know. Like, there's-- And you're right, but even Steve Jobs, who most people think of as a technologist, I actually would start with, I think he's a creative at heart. And I know it was, um, uh, uh, Jony who, like, was, like, considered the designer, [00:49:43] Jony Ive. Yeah. Mm-hmm [00:49:45] but it was really that partnership and relationship that achieved it. [00:49:49] It wasn't Jony Ive on his own. It was the two of them. Uh, so I don't know. Maya Angelou is gonna be my answer for [00:49:56] That's a great answer. And she-- [00:49:58] Baker is [00:49:58] Yeah [00:49:59] to mind, and [00:50:00] just because even though certain generations now may not know who she is, she's iconic in the sense of how much influence she's had over time, throughout the industry and how it's shaped so much around music and how it's used and thought about and performed. [00:50:18] yeah. Those are my two answers [00:50:19] I love it. I love it. I-- And I, I wanna pull this thread more with you, um, in the future as well, 'cause I think there's more, there's more marrow here to extract. But, uh, let's, let's, let's finish up this conversation looking to the future. Um, any- anything about what you're... You know, you're into "Star Trek," which is... [00:50:38] I was just watching a video last night of an orchestral, um, composition of the "Star Trek" theme song, 'cause it's just so good. And, um, anyway, um, where are you headed next? Where's your creative mind pointed at next for yourself? Any projects you're working on to go to that next level of creativity? [00:50:57] Yeah, I've been, uh... [00:51:00] I had this moment where I was invited to this conference a couple years ago with, uh, high school students, uh, from around the world, uh, very much overachievers too, I was brought in to present, uh, this was when I was at Merlin. I was brought in to present sort of the opportunities that, um, next generations can have within the music industry. [00:51:21] And it was super inspiring. it's just like, especially they're like sponges. They're just, they're so-- They wanna learn, they wanna, they wanna know what's next. I like to always tell them, "You're not cooked. You're gonna be okay." Like, "It's gonna change, but you're gonna be okay." And, and so I have very much like I'm entering that phase of pay it forward. [00:51:43] So I've been trying to figure out a way, 'cause I get hit up a lot by young people who like want my time, want to s- you know, sit down, get a coffee, chat for 30 minutes, get advice, and you just, you can only spread yourself so thin. It's just so hard, and I wish I could talk to every [00:52:00] single person who reaches out to me 'cause I want to help and inspire. [00:52:03] So I've been trying to figure out what I can do, within what I know best. Uh, so whether it's, you know, trying to put a book out to like give them the ideas about how to approach this, whether it's to do writings in other areas. So I tend to go back to writing always, uh, but I'm trying to figure out a way that I can try to like capture some of the ways I've approached things and say it in a way that's not trite. [00:52:28] It's not just the like put in the hours and surround yourself by good people and build community. Like, it is all those things, but is there something new I can inject into the conversation? So that's, that's been tickling the back of my mind. I've been playing around with that for a while. [00:52:43] I think there's some iconic potential there. Yeah. Last question, how could we make this conversation worse? [00:52:50] Oh, how can we make this conversation worse? Uh, we could talk about, more about contracts. We could d- we could dig into like limitations of [00:53:00] [00:53:00] Ooh, [00:53:01] indemnity. I was gonna go indemnity clause. Let's, let's live in the indemnity clause. [00:53:05] Yeah, caps on damages. Like I could go there if you like. I, [00:53:08] Arbitration. [00:53:10] Arbitration, arbitration agreements. [00:53:13] Arbitration [00:53:14] Yes. [00:53:14] like how do you determine arbitrators and who pays for the cost? Like there's a lot of meat on the bone there. [00:53:20] Boy, I think we have the topic for your book right there. That's-- Talk about uninspired. Uh, Jeremy, an absolute delight. Um, I just love your perspective, and every, you know, the few times I've g-gotten to interact with you live like this, and we have other interactions, um, my, my mind just, it just breaks, it breaks the normal thinking, and I go somewhere new, just like Star Trek, somewhere I haven't been before, and that is a tremendous gift. [00:53:46] So keep, keep dishing it out, brother [00:53:49] Thanks. Thanks for having me on. This was a lot of fun. [00:53:51] Thanks, man [00:53:53]