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The Power of Community to Combat Addiction - Chandler Rogers on How the Relay App Repels Porn · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 367 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, writer, speaker,
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husband and father of four, and creator of The Path Back, an online pornography recovery,
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program that is helping people turn to a life of amazing, wonderful things. And let's just
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stop right there. Turn to a life of amazing, wonderful things. And we're talking about
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a pornography recovery program in the same paragraph.
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We're going to talk a little bit more about pornography. And that always sounds funny
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to say when I was creating my pornography recovery program with the help of Craig Parra
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who is a leader in this field of the new way to look at overcoming addiction and impulse
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control and unhealthy coping mechanisms. I would go shoot at his place and he had a green
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screen and he had the professional recording equipment. I remember telling my friends at
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the time I would say, oh, I can't do something on Friday because I'm shooting my porn videos
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and I didn't say that to be funny. I just, it kind of, it came out and then I would realize
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somebody was around me that that sure didn't sound like what I wanted it to sound like.
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But the Path Back was something that we created years ago and I have since helped a lot of
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people turn to healthier coping mechanisms and move away from turning to pornography
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as a coping mechanism. And today we're going to talk about a really, it's a new tool, it's,
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an app that is seeing a lot of success in helping people find more of a sense of community
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and the efficacy or how helpful that is in people turning away from unhealthy coping
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mechanisms. Now, the company is called Relay and we're going to talk about the Relay app.
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But it really can work with any unhealthy coping mechanism, whether you're turning to
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food or gambling or pornography, anything like that as this unhealthy coping mechanism,
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a sense of community can just do wonders.
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When you can turn to someone and say, hey, I need a little help or I need a little support
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or does anybody have my back, that that can just be one of these amazing tools
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in your arsenal on the road to recovery.
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But I thought I would take this opportunity before I get to this interview with their CEO Chandler Rogers,
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and I thought we had a really fun conversation. It's not very long.
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So I haven't really talked about.
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Talked about dealing with pornography in quite a while. And so I just thought I would give a state of the union address, so to speak, in my work still in helping people overcome turning to pornography as a coping mechanism, which is a mouthful.
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And but it's very intentional because I don't really like saying the pornography addiction.
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And I was interviewed again on a podcast a couple of weeks ago.
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It's called unashamed and unafraid and that was one of the I want to say one of the funnest interviews
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I think I've done in a long time Which is so ironic or odd to say when we talked about pornography for an hour,
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but one of the first questions that they asked was do I feel like pornography is an addiction now by.
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Definition or in the diagnostic and statistical manual or the ICD the International Code of,
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Diagnoses there isn't a specific diagnosis of pornography addiction now
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there is impulse control disorder and compulsive behavior and so if we really
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needed to give something a diagnosis we could do that. But what I said then and
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what I will continue to say is I just really want to meet somebody where they're at and on that note I'm gonna use humor. So if somebody says that I
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feel like I work better without a label then okay then that one's pretty easy so
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we won't label you but what can I help you with? But if somebody said it was
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once I received this label or title of addict that then I really took it seriously, then okay, I can do that as well. And I'm not a fan of the word
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relapse. I don't mind something like setback. But if somebody says, okay,
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relapse really speaks to me, then who am I to say, I don't think that you should
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use that word relapse? Because I think that goes into the bigger picture from a
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mental health professional of somebody else truly telling someone how you're
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supposed to feel or what you're supposed to think or do. So when people come to me
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and they want help with if they even say if they want to say their pornography
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addiction, then okay, we'll get to the point where we're going to talk about
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what that means to them and is that important to them to have that label of
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a pornography addict.
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But in reality long ago, and I've spoken to this as many times as I can.
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But I feel like the pornography is an unhealthy coping mechanism as there are so many unhealthy coping mechanisms.
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And I feel like people turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms when they don't feel a connection in one of five areas.
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And I'm sure there's more. I haven't really updated this part in a while because I think that when you can get people dialed in in these areas,
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the siren song of turning to an unhealthy coping mechanism lessens a great deal.
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So these voids are when people don't feel connected in their marriage or their relationship in general,
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or if they don't feel a connection as a parent, or if they don't feel if they are good in their faith, whatever that faith is, or if they feel like their health is something that they is not where they want it to be, or if they don't like what they do, what they do for a living, whether that is high powered corporate attorney, or if they don't really enjoy being a stay at home mom, whatever that looks like when people don't feel a connection or a sense of purpose in any of those areas, then I feel like it's very easy to turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism.
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And I love acceptance and commitment therapy as I've said about 900 million times I think on the podcast and in this world of acceptance and commitment therapy, I especially appreciate the concept of socially compliant goal, which is if I am doing something that I think someone else wants me to do or if I'm doing it so that I will get the praise of others.
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Of others, if I am living a life full of socially compliant goals, then according to Dr. Stephen
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Hayes, the founder of ACT, then my motivation is weak and ineffective because it goes against
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my own process of unfolding. Which means that if I am not slowly but surely discovering
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who I am and what I want to do with my life and what direction I want to take and what
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my sense of purpose is, then I am not living a life that is fully compliant. is.
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Then I am going to turn to other things to cope. I am going to use what is also an act referred to as experiential avoidance. I am going to do any other experience to avoid the life that I am currently in because I may not feel like I am living this life for me.
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So if I don't feel like I have my values, if I'm not sure what those really even are, or if I feel like my particular values go against those that I think I'm supposed to do, then I'm living this life of a socially compliant life in essence.
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And so then of course I'm going to turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms just to feel, to feel alive, to get a little bump of dopamine, that feel-good chemical.
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And then I really, I really believe that in those moments when somebody does turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism and when they tell themselves.
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This is it, this is the last time I'm doing it. In that moment, they really do mean that this is the last time.
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And I've been talking a lot on the virtual couch over the last few months on what do we do with discomfort?
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So if we don't feel a connection in these areas in our lives, then we feel uncomfortable.
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If I don't know how to parent well, if I don't have a framework to operate from, from parenting,
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If sometimes I am very angry and sometimes I'm happy and sometimes I am willing to say,
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hey, champ, come tell me what's going on. And other times I just feel like I'm just not in a mood right now,
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then I can over time start to really feel bad about myself and it can feel uncomfortable to be a parent.
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So what do I do with that discomfort? People will drink. I mean, they will numb out. They'll binge on shows. They'll turn to pornography.
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They'll just look at their phones, whatever that looks like.
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And so, we get rid of our discomfort often by turning to coping mechanisms.
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And one of the best things that we can do is really learn to sit with discomfort.
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And especially when we just have the world is at our fingertips and we don't have to sit with discomfort.
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It has to be something that is very intentional for us to do, then we will turn away.
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We might then turn to this unhealthy coping mechanism and again, feel like in the moment, that's the last time I'm ever doing it.
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And I really believe that people do believe that. And oftentimes, if somebody gets caught, let's say they get caught and they're looking at porn or they get caught in any kind of unhealthy coping mechanism by a spouse or by somebody that they're interacting with, somebody that they care about or cares about them, then when they get caught, they feel uncomfortable.
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And so there's a lot of ways to get rid of that discomfort.
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One is to go complete victim. Man, you're right. I'm a horrible human being.
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I don't even deserve to be married to you or to have kids because that person wants
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the person that caught them or that they just confessed to, to then rescue them and say, no, it's okay.
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You're all right. And that will make that person that was feeling bad, they'll feel a lot better.
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Or the person that gets, let's say, just, we'll say getting caught in this scenario,
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that then they may get angry and they say, okay, what were you even doing snooping?
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Why were you even looking?
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Can't even believe I don't have privacy," then that's a way for them to alleviate
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Their discomfort is through anger and putting it back on this other person.
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And so there's so many ways other than just to sit with that discomfort and then to self-confront.
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What am I pretending not to know? How many times have I maybe tried to turn away from
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unhealthy coping mechanisms and been more of an active participant in my life? So if that is the
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case, then what makes that difficult? Let's put the unhealthy coping mechanism aside for a second
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and let's use this as an opportunity to really look inward and say, man, maybe I don't really
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feel a connection in my life. Maybe I'm struggling with my faith. Maybe I don't really feel connected
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to my spouse and I don't like what I do. And so if that's the case, then let's do something about.
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That. And it isn't a an overnight fix or process, but one of the best things that one can do is
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start to to really self-confront. So even somebody that's going to listen to this episode today,
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and they're going to hear Chandler Rogers, the CEO of Relay and I talk about this app that is
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is going to help build more of a connection or a community of people because the data
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shows that that community aspect shows great, significant results. And if somebody wants
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to take my Path Back Recovery course, which I believe is very helpful and good, and the
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weekly group meeting alone I think is worth the price of admission, do something. It's
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time to do something about it. And so, so often people will then say, oh no, I'm okay.
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Are you okay right now, right this very second? Because that last time that you maybe did have a setback, a relapse, whatever you want to call it, and the way that you got rid of discomfort was to tell yourself, no, this time I really understand and this is the last time.
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But then it's the last time until next time. Because I think the key is what are you doing in between those times? Because if you're just saying now I get it, then that siren song of temptation is going to come again.
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But if in those moments, the in-between moments, now you're actually taking action on figuring out why.
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Why do I turn to these unhealthy coping mechanisms? Where are these voids in my life?
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And what am I pretending not to know? Because now is the time for self-confrontation.
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And there are tools out there, and you don't know what you don't know.
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And it's as simple as that. I think when I was promoting my book,
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He's a Porn Addict, Now What? Expert and a Former Addict, Answer Your Questions,
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at that time I was saying that I added up maybe helping about 1,500 individuals overcome
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or turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism. And so, there are tools,
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there are ways out there. Now, let me just while I have you here for a few minutes before
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we get to this interview with Chandler, there are some things I think that are preventing
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people overcoming unhealthy coping mechanisms. I think one of those is that the idea of a
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quick fix. I am a person who sells a course and I sell multiple courses and I'm going
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say right now that I personally have a little bit of a challenge with the courses that really
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do sell the destination, as we say. So take, for example, an airline, and let's say that
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the commercial you see is a family on the beaches of Hawaii. Well, I want that. I want
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that destination. And so then they flash up the airplane logo and they say, hey, we can
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take you there. And so we're not even, I don't even know what color the plane is and how
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many seats the plane seats. I don't know how much the flight costs. I want that destination.
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And as I learned more about marketing courses, I found it very interesting that so often
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we market to that destination.
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Do you want to feel a connection with your spouse? Do you want to not seize up when you hear their car pull into the driveway?
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And if people say, I do, and then I say, well, here's my course and this can deliver this
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destination to you, then I get that dopamine bump and I want to buy that course because
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I want that destination.
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But as I was often told, as I was learning more about marketing these various courses,
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the vehicle itself is not necessarily something that is talked about as often. And I think
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that's a tragedy. I really do, because the different vehicles really do matter. My magnetic
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marriage course is based off of over a thousand couples that I've worked with, well over a
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thousand at this point. My four pillars of a connected conversation are based off of
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Sue Johnson's evidence-based couples modality called emotionally focused therapy. And so
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the destination is amazing. I want you to be able to communicate with your spouse and,
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and be able to go to them and share things with them.
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And I want you to also be interdependent and differentiated and see what a healthy relationship looks like.
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So, the vehicle to get there absolutely matters. It's not just a matter of doing some worksheets and what do you like and what you don't like. No, you need the vehicle that is based off of real truth and evidence.
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And so, the same is with the Path Back program. So, there are people that are going to say, okay, you just need to really try harder and you need to do some gratitude journals every day and you need to do your push-ups and you need to have a mantra and then we'll check in once a week and you pay me the five grand and then you'll be great.
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And that will work until it doesn't because it really has to be this internal change and
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that locus of change is on you.
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And too often I think when we turn to just simply a course or a guru or someone like
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that, then we're saying lead me, oh course or guru and I will follow.
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But in reality, this is an individualized treatment plan.
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So, when I'm talking about a course ironically, then like my path back, I've got some tools
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that will- I've got a vehicle that will lead you to the destination.
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And I personally think that that vehicle is a very powerful one that it's based on real
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data and evidence and experience. But in reality, it becomes on what is going to get you to
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that promised land. And that's why I really feel like when you have to take a look at
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taking control, and what am I, again, what am I pretending not to know? If I have had
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another setback and let's say that even, yeah, I put a couple of weeks together of not turning
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down healthy coping mechanisms, but then I do it again, but now this time I really know
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I'm not going to do it again.
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What again? What am I pretending to know in that moment? That is the time for self-confrontation.
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And it still comes with an absolute no shame. It needs to come from a place of no shame.
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That there is nothing inherently wrong with you. You are a human being that is reacting to the situations in your life.
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So check that out.
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So then when you turn inward and you self-reflect and you aren't just simply wanting someone
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else to tell you you're okay, you have to start and operate from this place of you're okay.
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I am telling you, you are okay. You are a human being going through life for the first time as you,
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and you have a lot of things that brought you to this moment. And now, what do you do with that
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information? What person do you want to become? Did you want to even overcome turning to pornography
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as an unhealthy coping mechanism? I still love telling the story. I got, I'll call it almost
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Shanghai'd once on a national radio show where the guy said he wants a porn expert to come on
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and talk about it. And I jump on there. I didn't do a lot of research and right out of the gate,
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He said, well, I think it's okay. I think it's fine. And I said, that's awesome. Then you wouldn't need my services.
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And he says, I do struggle with I think eating brownies or chocolate. And I said, well, I can help with that.
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But if you feel like things are good with porn, then go for it. And I said, I might challenge that in the relationship.
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And are you as connected as you really feel like you are? And then we had a good discussion.
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And by the end of the interview, he called me a friend of the program.
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So I guess that was a good thing.
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But there's a couple of quotes I think about when it comes to these concepts around self-confrontation
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and getting rid of shame and what am I pretending not to know and just starting to learn to
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sit with this discomfort. Albert Einstein said once, he said, you cannot solve a problem
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from the same consciousness that created. You must learn to see the world anew. So,
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if you are continuing to do the same thing over and over, then you're still trying to
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figure out the problem from the same consciousness that created the problem. So, it might be
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time to expand your customized treatment plan and look at things like this app I'm going
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to talk about today or my course, The Path Back, or anybody. There is no scarcity of
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help in the mental health field, but I just feel like look for something that really resonates
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with you, something that you like the person who has created this or you like the vibe
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and not just the sales page that says, here's the destination, but what does that look like?
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What are you going to do? What is going to change within you? Because if you're just
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handed these things and say, do this and I promise you it'll get better because it worked
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for me. That, you know, somebody will have this Genesis or origin story and they'll say
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that this is why I did this because it helped me. Then that's awesome. But I really want
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I want you to find tools that that help people. I mean, that are based off of what it feels
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like to be you and the way that you're showing up in life and the things that you maybe aren't
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even aware of. There's a thought I wrote down a couple other quotes I thought were really
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interesting. I will leave with this and then we'll get to the interview with Chandler.
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When I had Sam Teeleman's on and he works a lot with pornography and helping people
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overcome turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism as well. He's the one that
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said the strongest force in the human personality is to act in alignment with how you see yourself.
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So however you identify yourself, you're going to find a way back to that home base. So if
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somebody is identifying themselves as an addict, then they may put a lot of good time and effort
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energy and sobriety together, but then if they feel like, but at my core, I'm an addict,
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then it's almost the self-fulfilling prophecy or this expectancy effect where, but eventually I
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know I'm going to find my way back to addiction. But if how you see yourself is you fill in the
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blank, an amazing human, a light to the world, a child of God, whatever that looks like,
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and then you are going about your day and every now and again, the cloud of pornography or anxiety
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or depression or anger or fear descends upon you, then you can work with that because you are an
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amazing human being and these things happen. And check that out and you're noticing that they're
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happening and now what do I do with those things? Man, I could go on. I need to do another episode
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just completely on this subject because with what we talked about on the virtual couch the
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the last few weeks, even the concept of learning how to not only sit with discomfort.
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That it's not as scary as we think, but also just that a couple weeks ago I did one on acceptance.
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And acceptance, it means, it doesn't mean to just acquiesce or to just, I guess, deal with or
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tolerate. But if I accept the fact that I may still have setbacks or relapses or whatever we want to
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call them, then I'm not so afraid. I mean, because again, in ACT, we say that if you're unwilling to
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have it, you will, whatever that is. So, if I am unwilling to have bad days or to have bad moments
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or to have anger or to have fear, then I'm going to have those things because I'm doing everything I can in my power to avoid them.
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But take fear for example. I don't like being scared, but I have this value of connection with my family, my kids,
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and my son and his girlfriend, my daughter, and her husband. They like to go on dates with my wife and I. It's crazy.
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I couldn't even imagine going on dates with my parents when I was young at all.
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But they like scary movies, and my wife and I are not fans. We haven't been to scary movies in a very long time.
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So I have to accept the fact that I am going to be scared. Because if I am afraid, if I'm afraid of being afraid, then I'm going to say, I'm not going
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you guys, because I don't want to be scared.
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I mean, I'm afraid of being afraid.
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So if I'm unwilling to be afraid, then I will be. And so instead, then I accept the fact, oh, I will be afraid.
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Man, will I be afraid.
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And these are all very literal things. I will scream.
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I will throw popcorn, which is such a waste, because I love popcorn.
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I will watch a movie through my fingers or with my hat.
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And lately, when I am anticipating a jump scare, I will accept the fact that my son will poke me in the ribs
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and I will also scream.
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But those are just things that are gonna happen. Of course they're gonna happen,
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because I'm in a scary movie.
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But I'm also going to notice that I get to eat buttered delicious popcorn,
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or I get to hold my wife's hand, or I get to have this shared experience with my kids and their spouses
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and their girlfriends and their boyfriends.
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And so we get to have these shared experiences. So if I'm going to live a life of purpose and value,
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then I'm gonna have things like fear, and I'm gonna have things like anxiety,
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and I'm gonna have things like maybe setbacks, whatever that looks like,
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but that's all just part of the human process.
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So if you are willing to accept the fact that you're gonna have these bad days,
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you're gonna have these times you're gonna wanna turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms,
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then you're gonna go out and into the world, and you're gonna learn these tools
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that will help you become a better version of you, as cliched as that sounds,
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and then over time, it's gonna feel a lot easier to sit with that discomfort and then turn to these value-based things in your life rather
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than turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms. And heaven forbid you do have another setback,
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well then, like I say to my group all the time, here's what we do with that. So somebody
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comes in and they say, yeah, I had this sobriety streak and then I just, I had a, I had a relapse.
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I had a setback and I feel like we can almost say it wrote in the group of, okay, well noted
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That happened. Anyway, don't beat yourself up.
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That's no shame. And then let's just review the game film. Maybe what am I pretending not to know that?
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Oh, yeah, every time I'm home alone for a couple of hours on Wednesdays when my family goes and does whatever some church activity, that's the red zone.
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That's when it happens.
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So, okay, then check that out.
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Now, turning back to healthy coping mechanisms or value-based goals and actions, then I'm going to by the time next Wednesday rolls around, I'm a much better version of myself because I'm doing something about it.
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I'm not beating myself up.
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I'm not hanging my head so that somebody else will tell me, hey, it's okay. You're going to get there sometime.
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I'm not even necessarily going and having to make a confession to someone,
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because if I'm just saying, oh, I feel so bad I did this thing, and then they say, oh, well, that's, I really appreciate you admitting that you did the thing.
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Well, then I feel better, but am I really doing anything about it? Now, if a confession to someone in, let's say, in a religious authority, if that's how you want to show up,
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Is that because I just want them to alleviate my anxiety or stress?
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Or is it because I'm turning there because I say, hey, I could use a little extra help.
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So I can use your guidance or maybe your help support.
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I mean, that's a whole different thing. So, I could go on. I will say this too. I do feel like the solution for a better marriage, the solution for turning away from unhealthy coping mechanisms, the solution for overcoming your anxiety or your fear or your doubt, it actually isn't as far away as you might think. But you will never know until you start to head in a direction.
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Maybe talking about that Albert Einstein quote again.
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You can't solve a problem from the same consciousness that created it.
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You have to learn to see the world anew. And oftentimes that is learning how to open up and be vulnerable.
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Last time I'll say the last time, at least I believe that is the case.
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I have a couple of clients that have come that I haven't seen in a while that have come back
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and it's been really interesting because both of them and they don't know each other,
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but they're in for similar things.
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It sounds like they're in prison. They're in my office for similar things, which is a joy.
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It's not a prison.
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But they're in for learning how to be better in new relationships.
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And part of the struggles they've had in the past has been turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms like pornography.
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And they have both in their own ways, which I so love. And this is coming from a healthy ego for myself.
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I promise this isn't me saying, I'm so grateful that someone wants me to tell them how they should live and what they should do, because that is not the case.
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But both of these people are coming in and saying, hey, help me know, help me understand what I don't understand.
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And i say ok i'm on board with this but i want you to yeah but this is the time where you're allowed to yeah but me.
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So if i'm talking about not needing external validation if i'm talking about hey when you are interacting with your kids.
24:06
They actually don't need to know about your high school football or basketball stories but you need to know about their third fourth seventh tenth grade soccer basketball track band.
24:19
Math performances and they need to know that you are very curious about those and they need to feel like they can be heard and understood and,
24:26
Not that when they start to talk to you about your experiences.
24:30
They are not actually as impressed as you think that they are when you start to tell them how much better that you were at
24:34
That age or or any of those things this is about them and them showing up in life
24:39
If you just get your act together and start being and doing.
24:43
Then they will feel that strength and that trust from you and that is actually part of what is gonna help you learn to turn away from unhealthy coping mechanisms and not look at this.
24:54
Does need for external validation everywhere you turn around because you start to learn that i am ok.
24:59
Yeah things happen setbacks happen whatever happens but i'm a human being and that's what we do as humans.
25:04
But when I can acknowledge that happened and now I can self-confront, what am I pretending
25:08
not to know? Get the tools that will start to help and know that there are going to be times where
25:13
that tool is going to work for a little while, but then I might need to find a new tool.
25:16
So with that said, let's get to an interview with Chandler Rogers, the CEO of Relay, and,
25:21
let's talk about a new tool, which is an app of theirs.
25:23
And I do have, if you click through the link in the show notes, you can get that app for
25:30
free for a limited time.
25:32
Can join one of their communities, their relay communities, and we'll talk about that more
25:36
in the interview. But it's these small communities based off of a lot of different things, based
25:42
off of what you're struggling, your age, your religiosity, a lot of the things that you'll
25:47
identify when you're signing up for their app. And then that will help put you with
25:51
communities. And those communities are, in essence, your accountability partners. And,
25:56
I personally believe that it is a very good thing to have accountability partners. And
26:01
I will say that I often am not a fan of the accountability partner being the spouse, because
26:06
I want you to be the best spouse you can be and I want you to be able to figure out these
26:11
things without necessarily having to turn to your husband or wife and say, hey, I did
26:15
it again, you know, and they say, well, I appreciate your honesty, but you feel that negative energy.
26:20
And if that is what your spouse is asking for, then I understand.
26:24
Again, I'll meet you there. And I have couples coming into my office often.
26:27
If you are really working on overcoming, turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms,
26:31
there are good tools out there and they are not just turning to your spouse
26:35
or your ecclesiastical leader and saying, I did it again, and they say,
26:38
oh, thanks for telling me, you're okay.
26:41
No, it's time to do something different and to use these tools that are out there.
26:45
So look in the show notes.
26:46
If you have questions, you can send me an email, contact at tonyoverbay.com,
26:50
or you can actually reach out to any of the guys at Relay as well because they are very accessible
26:55
and they want to do one thing, and that's simply change the world.
26:58
So let's get to the interview with Relay CEO Chandler Rogers,
27:02
and I think you're really gonna like what Chandler's offering with this app.
27:05
Music.
27:12
Chandler Rogers, welcome to the virtual couch. How are you doing?
27:15
Doing great. Happy to be here. Thanks, Tony. Yeah. And Chandler and I were talking off the air.
27:20
That's the official term, right? Like what the kids call it.
27:22
Yeah. And the platform I'm using right now, which I'm not talking about openly just yet because
27:26
I had one bad experience. But other than that, it's been amazing.
27:29
And Chandler has been part of one experience where it didn't go so well.
27:32
There's a part of me that is gun shy. We're going to probably spend some gold and then the file is going to be corrupt.
27:36
But let's- Praying for some good luck today. There you go. Let's just go for it, right?
27:40
I think it's funny, the way that you and I met was through the co-founder of the company
27:45
that you work with named Jace.
27:48
And then Jace is talking about the Wayback Machine. And Jace, I think is like a nephew or something to some friends of mine from high school.
27:55
And I'm a very old man.
27:57
So when they reached out to me and said, Hey, we want to put you in contact with our nephew.
28:00
Honestly, I'm so used to people saying, because he needs therapy.
28:04
And so then I half read the message.
28:06
I think that's why I didn't get back quick, because I thought, oh, bless his heart.
28:11
I don't know if I can help.
28:12
But man, once I started reading why we're talking, it's kind of exciting.
28:15
So maybe why don't you tell my listeners why are we talking?
28:18
What are you guys, what are you doing?
28:20
Yeah, you know, struggling with pornography was something that was always kind of a theme
28:24
for me growing up. And one of the big lessons that is key to my story is realizing that,
28:30
not only was I not alone, but it is so much more effective to work through this, not alone,
28:35
to, to band together with other people who are in the same boat and to find a strong support system.
28:40
We can talk more about this later in the episode, but Jason and I served on the same mission
28:44
together for Yale DS Church. Where'd you guys go?
28:47
We went to New York City. So yeah, we were out there and actually a big part of what
28:51
we spent time doing those two years was helping a lot of people overcoming various addictions.
28:57
And so it resonated with me a lot with my personal story. And he and I came back to
29:02
school and we were both in a coding class together. And I basically pitched him on the
29:06
idea like, let's build an app. And everyone was building these random things that no one
29:11
was going to use whatever people are building. It was just a project.
29:14
But I was like, hey, what if we build something that actually could be meaningful? And then.
29:19
Built something actually totally not related to addiction. And what we ended up actually
29:24
building and why we're talking today is Relay, right?
29:27
But then we were like, maybe it would be cool to have an app that makes it easier for long-distance
29:35
family members. So kids that have gone off to college or moved out of the house or even
29:39
extended family like grandparents. What if there's a platform better than other social
29:43
media that was tailored towards families to helping them stay connected.
29:46
And I think it was an interesting idea, but just didn't really get any traction to it.
29:51
But I continued to think about some of the pain points and things that I had experienced,
29:55
talked to a lot of friends who had experienced with overcoming pornography, and continued
29:58
to come back to a few themes.
30:00
And we just realized we wanted to try to help make a difference, particularly in making
30:03
it easier for people to find a good support system. And that's what we ended up doing.
30:08
That's kind of where we're at. How long does it take to build the app?
30:14
Yeah, so we were total noobs at the beginning. We had no idea what we were doing. We were not like
30:19
these engineering wizards going into this. I won't say we're engineering wizards now.
30:25
You know, hopefully the users on the app don't know that. But no, it probably took us six months
30:30
to get the first version out there. So it wasn't terribly long, but we learned a ton along the way.
30:35
It was tons of fun from a learning perspective, but meaningful at the same time because we were
30:39
trying to actually get something that worked and actually worked really well into people's hands.
30:43
So was this the classic, this was the project that you were doing for school and you end up
30:48
getting a bad grade but go on to make millions of dollars? Are you starting with that vibe?
30:51
Well, the end of the story still has yet to be written. So millions of dollars,
30:56
definitely not. Haven't paid ourselves anything from it yet. But yeah, no, it quickly transitioned
31:01
from just a project to we were graduating and we had other job offers. Like Jace was going to go to
31:05
Apple and do much cooler things there probably. But we had started to actually see some really
31:11
good signs of traction. And we had launched the app like six months before we graduated.
31:16
And I think we had five or 600 paying users on the product that were interacting in these
31:21
small tight knit teams and they were getting results.
31:25
We weren't necessarily nailing every aspect of it. And the way we look at it is like,
31:29
we want to continue to improve this thing for years. So it's not done. But we were really
31:32
excited about what we were seeing so far. And we realized that we care a lot about helping
31:37
people more than going and working for big tech companies.
31:41
And so we decided this is what we want to do. And so we didn't show up to our other jobs,
31:45
and instead we're doing this now full time.
31:47
OK, and so then it's funny, full transparency, I didn't read the material initially.
31:53
And then I had a client where he was looking for something from an accountability standpoint.
31:58
And then I was trying to sound really cool. And I said, oh, I think I've got a really cool brand new thing
32:02
that nobody knows about.
32:03
And then when I started reading about it, And I really did feel like I could see how interesting
32:08
or important this could be in the world of addiction because the connection is so important.
32:12
And I feel like I facilitated 12 step groups forever.
32:15
You know, I've worked with, I don't know, I think 1500 plus individuals trying to overcome pornography
32:20
or other unhealthy coping mechanisms.
32:21
And I feel like there's that part where the one-on-one concept of an accountability partner sounds great.
32:27
But then I find that, man, it's one of those things where it sounds good until it doesn't,
32:30
until they can't get ahold of somebody or until they feel like the person's gonna, you know,
32:34
just checking a box or till they feel like they're bothering somebody or so is that kind
32:38
of some of the things that you guys ran into or why you created it?
32:41
I remember from my story growing up, like I.
32:45
You know, for many years, thought, let's try to do this on my own. Right.
32:49
Yeah. That old chestnut. Yeah.
32:50
Yeah. And so this is even the step before what you're talking about and quickly realized, I think that it just, A, sucks to try to get through this alone.
33:01
It's really miserable. And then B, I just realized that it wasn't very effective. Like they,
33:04
there's a lot of, I think, things about trying to work through a personal challenge like this
33:08
and even other, you know, challenges, not pornography. I think I think human beings, I don't believe, are designed to just navigate these personal trials
33:16
alone.
33:17
I think even between us and God, from a faith perspective, I think God wants us to leverage
33:22
each other and work together. We're placed on this world together for a reason, I believe.
33:26
But yeah, I think when I started adding just my bishop, my church leader as my one accountability.
33:31
Person, just my therapist at another point in time, or just my wife and our marriage,
33:36
none of those setups worked very well.
33:38
And all of them actually were really tough for me personally because I had an existing
33:41
relationship with them.
33:42
So for me, the shame factor was magnified because I was like, yeah, it was either kind
33:46
of checking the box or there was a little bit of extra barrier to be honest, just because
33:51
I hated letting them down. And I felt like I was letting myself down when I let them down.
33:55
Because I think what I struggled with internally really with this challenge growing up was
33:59
like from the outside, people saw Chandler Rogers as this kid who was like doing well
34:04
in a lot of things and did well at school and sports.
34:07
And career stuff, right? And no one, at least I thought no one would know this side of me
34:12
and think that I'm the same person. So I struggle with this concept of self-worth, but I think
34:17
a lot of people do. Can I struggle with this and still be a good person, still be a good
34:21
follower of God, husband, whatever it is, career professional.
34:25
And I think I had this light bulb moment as I realized I needed to expand my support system.
34:30
At the same time, I realized that it's not how many days in a row that I haven't looked
34:34
pornography that defines how solid of a person I am. We're all struggling with really difficult
34:40
things and it's okay to be working through a compulsive behavior and it's okay to need.
34:44
A wider support system to help me through that. So tell me about how I really am curious. I was
34:49
joking with you beforehand of, okay, I really want to hear your story. I won't get into the
34:53
nitty gritty of the product, but I really like this a lot because I do feel like I always talk
34:57
about you got your trigger and with porn, I think it's more, it's typically I call it crimes of
35:02
opportunity. Somebody's bored or they just can. And so then you get that thought, I could do this,
35:07
and then the action. And I always say it's putting distance between thought and action.
35:11
So I feel like that's where this could really come in handy of just to try to make a connection,
35:15
period, that it isn't a, hey, I'm struggling. So what does it look like? What do you do?
35:20
What's your group look like, how do you reach out to people within the app?
35:24
Yeah, totally. So when I come into the app, the first thing that it will help me do is
35:28
get mashed with four to eight other people that are in the same boat as me working through the
35:33
same thing in a way that's not scary and awkward. So it's not me having to go to my roommates or my.
35:38
Buddies from work and having to open up, but these are people who are actively working towards
35:42
the same goal. So I go through a little questionnaire and it helps first find a team
35:46
for me. Or if I'm already with an existing group, we have a lot of people in the app that are
35:51
or meeting, you know, Wednesday nights, and they're using the app with their existing group
35:55
because they realize, and this was my experience with the 12-step group or other programs
35:59
that are group-based, the other six days of the week, we largely did not leverage that group,
36:04
and it was super dumb of us.
36:05
And I think this would be amazing because the group I do have,
36:08
my Path Back men's group is just growing, and I feel like we all dig each other so much,
36:12
but then people talk about, they look forward to the one hour on Wednesday,
36:16
and then there's this just, yeah, okay.
36:19
Yeah. It's like unsurprisingly, GroupMe weren't built to help recovery groups stay connected
36:24
and accountable in an effective way. They're good chat messaging platforms. So this theme
36:29
of like what relay is, it's more than a group chat. There is the group chat component. But
36:33
once I'm in the group, we actually on the connection component, we try to help make.
36:38
It easier for you to stay connected with your group. Whether it's more than just that Wednesday
36:43
night group, or if it's a group that you're not meeting with live, we just help facilitate
36:48
So for example, we have some guided conversation prompts that will get auto-generated or will
36:52
help people select meaningful conversation prompts that we've worked with other clinicians
36:57
to help generate different ways in which we can help people go deeper and form a connection
37:01
that's not just based around guys talking about, how are you doing with porn today?
37:05
Exactly. Yeah. Right. Like we were talking about more substance than that and also focusing on higher up the
37:10
chain, I think, on what's helpful. And what's really helpful, I think a lot of people have
37:15
found about the app is this red flag feature.
37:17
So a lot of people, I remember we'd come to group and we'd be like, hey, I had a setback or relapse this week.
37:23
Guys are like, why didn't you reach out in the group chat? And I'm like, I have no idea.
37:26
Okay. I like where you're going. Yeah.
37:29
Yeah. And so we tested this out early on and we didn't actually think this would be the thing
37:33
people loved about the app, but it's really simple. It's literally just this like button.
37:37
That's a flag that you press with one tap instead of having to type out a message and say, Hey,
37:41
I'm not doing well, or I'm feeling tempted right now. It can send a notification and it just lets
37:45
the group know. It doesn't even have to be like that you're tempted right now. We're trying to
37:49
to help train the emotional awareness piece. You were talking about, I'm feeling bored,
37:54
and I'm feeling stressed or anxious or whatever it is.
37:56
That'd be a red flag. Yeah. And then what's really cool is people want to respond to the red flags. So people,
38:02
I think, are just as excited about how do I give support through Relay and not just get support.
38:07
And I think that's helped a lot of people too, is we're trying to reduce the friction so that
38:10
I can turn outwards a little easier than having to go through my phone and text people and ask
38:15
how they're doing. There's a little bit more visibility in the app there. And so there are
38:19
like these daily check-ins too that I can schedule and customize that are more emotional oriented
38:23
to help me understand that I am feeling bored in the first place so that I can raise the red flag.
38:28
And even if I don't raise that red flag, we have some transparency and we're still maintaining user privacy
38:33
and making it such as your personal journey.
38:35
But for example, like let's say Tony, that I logged this morning that I'm feeling stressed
38:39
or tired because I didn't get good sleep and you're in my group, you could actually come in and see,
38:43
even if I didn't throw that red flag, that I was feeling stressed and tired
38:47
And you could reach out to me and be there for me.
38:49
And that's kind of an interaction that I think is. So I can even say, Hey, what's the, what's up with the sleep?
38:54
Is it literally, you can see it looks like Chandler slept three and a half hours.
38:57
Like what's going on there? That kind of thing.
38:59
I mean, is that not that level of detail? Okay. Just like it's kind of logging.
39:02
Like I'm feeling, I'm feeling bored. Gotcha. Okay.
39:07
Usually, that sparking conversation is like, Hey man, you've been putting that you're feeling
39:11
bored every day for the last three days. Do you have anything meaningful going on with
39:15
work right now? Yeah, exactly.
39:17
Getting engaged in these different areas of your life, it's helping draw that awareness
39:21
for people. The other component on the flip side of the coin is maybe you already have
39:25
some things that you are trying to work on. So I am trying to spend time journaling every
39:29
day to help me be more aware. I'm trying to exercise to be engaged in that area of my
39:36
physical health. Users can track that in the app. It's not just logging your sobriety with
39:41
pornography. It's tracking those types of things. And then we're helping also surface
39:44
that as a group so they can hold each other accountable on those types of things. And
39:48
I can say, Hey man, like how's your exercise going? I know you've been wanting to get more.
39:52
Engaged in that area. So.
39:54
Okay. I'm thinking through this from the therapist lens of the, we need, we tell people all the
39:58
time, all right, we need to go from not needing external validation to validating yourself
40:02
internally. But then the reality is we still want, we sometimes want the attaboys, the
40:07
kudos. And I feel like this is the challenge when somebody's accountability partner is
40:11
their spouse or their bishop or somebody like that of where, I don't know, sometimes it
40:15
can almost seem pretty clingy or needy to then say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm exercising.
40:21
And I know that if the spouse is having a struggle or they feel like if I don't give
40:25
him praise and then he acts out, then he's going to turn it on me.
40:29
So I like this concept of you had a group of people and maybe it's a little easier to
40:33
say to a group of guys, Hey, I need some out of voice today.
40:36
Cause I feel like if you've got a bunch of guys that want the words of affirmation as
40:39
a way to connect, that they're probably more willing to give it in other than the spouse
40:42
is saying, okay, if I don't respond or I respond the wrong way, then for some reason, you know,
40:48
maybe in the past it's been turned around and put on that spouse because I think I see
40:52
that there. It can be super hard.
40:54
Yeah. I think tons of tons of therapists that I've talked to.
40:57
Yeah, I have all sorts of thoughts about why the spouse is kind of the primary accountability is hard for both.
41:02
Absolutely. I think spouses actually have loved Relay maybe even more than the dudes themselves
41:06
because they're like, okay. Because I remember my wife asking me early on, she was like, so you've been open and
41:11
I went to groups and stuff.
41:13
She's like, you have all these people in your phone as contacts that you could be working
41:17
more proactively with, staying accountable to just connecting with more.
41:21
But it sounds like I'm like your only accountability partner.
41:23
I was being open with her, what she wanted.
41:26
And we talked about what was going to work for us.
41:29
But she kind of nudged me and she was like, why are you not?
41:32
I need it to not just be me, essentially. And I think that's been really helpful for a lot of species.
41:36
Yeah. It's funny too. Part of when I started my group and no close up groups work for so many people, they've
41:41
been around for such a long time.
41:43
But the part with the no cross talk, and I understand that that's protecting people from
41:47
the grizzled sea captain in the corner that's saying, you don't get a kid or that kind of thing.
41:53
But I feel like I kind of want some cross talk from time to time.
41:55
People, what's working for you? What's not working for you?
41:58
And I even feel like in my men's group, I've got some stuff I want to share. We've got
42:02
some question or prompt. And so I even feel like at times there's not enough of that.
42:06
Tell me about a victory or tell me what's working for you. So I'd imagine this would
42:09
probably give a way to facilitate more of that too.
42:13
Yeah. And maybe we're a little rebellious because yeah, it is more of the latter and
42:16
not the traditional avoiding crosstalk. But I mean, those are things that for me personally,
42:21
and as I've talked to tons of other guys, they, they, they, they, they, they, they.
42:24
I think they feel kind of energized having that. And I don't think it's a silver bullet, right?
42:28
Like it's not, you know, it's not something someone's going to say as a brilliant idea of what's working for them.
42:33
That's probably going to change the game for me.
42:35
But I think having that environment can be really helpful. No, I like what you're saying, because I do one of my go to lines is when somebody comes in and they've worked with other people in the past.
42:44
And I will often just say, hey, are you expecting that I've got some magic pill or secret phrase that once you learn, then this thing's going to be easier?
42:53
And I've been talking a lot lately to Chandler about, I feel like it's, I've been calling
42:56
it an individualized, customized treatment program for each individual.
43:00
Because I feel like my Path Back program is gold and if people adhere to it, then it's
43:04
going to change their whole life.
43:05
But I know that everybody's got their own stuff they bring to the table.
43:09
And so anyway, now I feel like I'm down to seeing your praises.
43:12
I just like that idea of a connection with a small group or even a larger group of people.
43:16
I like the idea of hitting a red flag instead of even saying I'm struggling.
43:19
And I like the idea of that you can have a variety of ways to respond because I like
43:23
humor and so I'll have clients from time to time I'll say you can text me.
43:27
I might end up just sending you a meme or something, you know, and I don't know.
43:31
So can you guys do that within the app?
43:33
Can you do that? That's been one of our most requested features, Tony.
43:35
I didn't realize that the memes were going to be a huge part of it, but they were like,
43:39
we need to send these gifts, however you pronounce it right there.
43:43
Yeah, we're working on that right now actually. Are you really? Okay.
43:47
Yeah. Okay. have, and not that you have to have data or results or it shows that it helps this much
43:55
more or do you have that kind of data behind this as well?
43:58
Yeah. One of the things that we've actually been tracking that we were interested in is
44:02
people's perception of how they feel like things are trending. Because we can see they're
44:06
logging, they are logging it, their sobriety data, right? Like how are the results going
44:12
from an outcome perspective? And then we can see, which I think is even a little more interesting,
44:15
How are people doing at those input type goals and systems and habits?
44:20
I'm tracking my exercise, my sleep, my journaling, spiritual habits, whatever it is.
44:25
But we're asking people in a weekly reflection how they feel about the level of connection
44:30
with their group, because really one of the main outcomes we want is to help people feel more connected.
44:34
And then we're asking them how they feel. Do they feel like things are getting better, staying the same, or getting worse?
44:39
And 79% of our users report feeling like things are getting better within the first month
44:43
of using the app. Okay.
44:45
So that's kind of the main data we found so far. And it's still early.
44:48
Like we launched this thing a year ago.
44:50
But we're really excited. And one of the things that I believe in to keep improving the results there is I want
44:54
our users to talk to me. And so I make my phone number and my email very available because I just
44:59
want to understand what people find really effective in the app and what they wish was
45:03
different. And that's how like people are like, yeah, I want to send memes. And we're like, okay,
45:06
we can go add that. No, I do notice on the website to Johan Hari and dig that. So that Ted talk and
45:14
the connections, the opposite of addiction. Um, okay. So is that a lot of what this.
45:20
The whole concept is based off of. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say to like that talk was one of the
45:25
things that really connected the dots for me. And he really just talks about a few studies that
45:29
they've done that even with substance abuse, not just prion addiction, they found that connection.
45:33
Is he the one that did the rat amusement park? Yeah, exactly. Do you know that went off the top
45:39
of your head Chandler? I was just telling us one of the groups. I was just about to try to
45:41
summarize this. I may butcher it. I do. Okay. I literally just had somebody text it to me a
45:47
a couple of days ago. So no, let's talk about this before we wrap it up.
45:50
Matt Thompson Yeah. So I believe what happened, they had these rats in a cage, right? And I can't remember what the substance was. It was essentially
45:56
they laced the water with- Chris It was cocaine, I believe it was. Is that what it was? Yeah.
46:01
Matt Thompson Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. So they laced the water with cocaine. And of course, essentially they found that the rats wanted the cocaine
46:08
water. But the thing was that these rats were alone. They were individually contained, like
46:14
their own cages. And then they set up the second test essentially with the rats together.
46:20
So they had companionship. They had other rats with them. And what they found is actually
46:24
that they stopped choosing the cocaine water and instead they essentially were choosing
46:28
socialization and connection. And they were able to study multiple times and concluded
46:33
that there was something about connection that helped, I don't know if it's scientifically
46:38
rewiring or just helping healing process of overcoming compulsive behavior. And so that
46:45
whether or not that's a, I don't know, like a.
46:48
Really clear-cut principle or how that actually applies or what exactly that means for it to work.
46:53
I don't know. But generally, I think the principle of connection helping and actually
46:57
being central to the healing process, not just trying to figure out how do I stop a behavior,
47:02
how do I get more meaningfully connected in my life and in my relationships?
47:05
And I think even connected with the things that I'm doing in a good way,
47:08
like you were talking about, whether it's my work or my family or other things.
47:13
Chase Gray 003404 Well, I was going to say before, and that was before we jumped on, I told Chandler,
47:15
And I think most of the people that listen to my podcast, I tell them I don't do enough.
47:19
I don't talk enough about this. But yeah, I say that turning to porn is a coping mechanism.
47:24
You don't feel connected in your marriage or your parenting, your health, your faith,
47:27
or your career in a nutshell.
47:29
And I pulled up this study and I do. I love it. He says, Rat Park, they don't drink the drug water.
47:34
It was everything the rat could want food and other rats to befriend and colored things, shiny things.
47:40
And then both water bottles are there, one with water and one with the drug water.
47:44
And they don't drink the drug water. hardly used it. None of them overdosed. And so he talked about how addiction is largely
47:50
an adaptation to your environment. And so I just, I think that's so fascinating because
47:54
I often say even when people accept the fact that they can maybe drink the water or they
48:00
can turn to porn, they would rather make a connection or do something that is of value
48:05
because then they feel a greater sense of purpose. So I don't know. I like that. I like
48:09
that a lot. Okay. So where do people find you? Where do.
48:14
We go. Yeah, it's join relay.app.
48:17
Okay, Chandler, anything else that you want to share? First of all, can I ask you, can you tell if you or Jace are the better coder?
48:25
Is that a thing?
48:26
Well, I'll give that title to Jace for sure. He does a lot more of it these days than I do.
48:31
I've stepped away a little bit from doing that a ton.
48:33
Jace is great. I was going to say real quick, I just remembered any on the streets of New York stories?
48:37
I mean, did you guys have to get scrappy or throw it down at all or did you get really good at it?
48:42
I don't know. What did you see there? Man, I love New York. We didn't see too many sketchy things.
48:46
Don't have that many funny stories. Some kind of wild things that just you'd expect to see
48:50
people peeing in random places and stuff like that.
48:55
But Jace and I, I remember we had a really fun day together out near the Hamptons, like
49:00
the end of Long Island. So it's not familiar with the corner of the city. We did both spend
49:04
some time there. But yeah, I remember even when I met Jace that like, I don't know, we
49:08
just clicked really well together and we were both just really passionate about trying to
49:11
help the people out there. And I think we were both Spanish speaking. And so we saw
49:16
lot of people who were very isolated. So it again ties back to this theme of connection.
49:22
We're trying to work through all sorts of personal challenges and just realized how,
49:27
important I guess that theme was as we were out there in New York. No crazy stories. I kind of
49:32
wanted more. I remember leaving being like, I hope like I get shot at, but I live like that.
49:36
That would be cool. Yeah. And do you, do you miss any of the food? I mean, was it a good old?
49:41
Yes. My wife, I'd love to move back there for the food.
49:44
What do you miss in particular? What was your favorite food there?
49:47
Matthew 1. I mean, the Dominican food is really good. Just all of that, all of their type
49:51
of food is really good. I also love pupusas from El Salvador.
49:55
Chris What's a pupusa?
49:57
Matthew 1. It's hard to describe. They're like these little like tortilla, like filled
50:01
with beans and meat and cheese, but it's like a little thicker. Anyways, it's super good.
50:06
Chris That's kind of fun. Yeah.
50:08
Matthew 1. You're in California, right? You should go. Chris Yes. Yeah.
50:11
Matthew 1. They definitely have them there. You should go try them.
50:12
Oh, I'm sure they do. Okay. No, that sounds good. All right. Chandler. Chandler Rogers.
50:15
Thank you for coming on the virtual couch. I look forward to seeing you maybe in the app and
50:18
and we can share a meeting or two. For sure, let's do it. Thanks, Tony.
50:22
Music.
52:26
Distance don't explode allow the understanding through to heal the legs and heart.
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Music.