Latest / Deep Dive Ortho — Orthopaedic Surgery, AI & Digital Health Podcast. / Shoulder Instability Procedures compared!
Transcript
- 0:00Imagine for a moment you're, say, an ambitious
- 0:02cricketer, maybe playing at a high amateur level,
- 0:05or perhaps a professional rugby player. You dislocate
- 0:08your shoulder. It's painful, obviously, frustrating.
- 0:10But you do the recovery, all the physio, you
- 0:12build the strength back up. You think, OK, I'm
- 0:13clear. But then, thwack, it happens again. And
- 0:17maybe again after that. That's the, well, the
- 0:20crushing reality of recurrent shoulder instability.
- 0:23It's this relentless problem. It doesn't just
- 0:25sideline careers. It can really impact your daily
- 0:27life, strips away confidence, limits even the
- 0:30simple things, that frustration, you know, of
- 0:32a part of your body just refusing to stay put.
- 0:34It can be immense, huge career implications,
- 0:37not just for athletes, but other professionals,
- 0:39too. And the emotional toll, of course. Now...
- 0:43For far too long, considering how common this
- 0:45is, there's been a surprising lack of a clear
- 0:47agreed upon gold standard treatment, really quite
- 0:50surprising. And this has led to vastly different
- 0:52surgical approaches across the world, often influenced
- 0:55more by where a surgeon trained or the local
- 0:57traditions rather than perhaps what the most
- 0:59robust up -to -date evidence actually suggests.
- 1:02So today we're embarking on a really insightful
- 1:05journey into this critical area of orthopedic
- 1:07surgery, an area where, maybe surprisingly, treatment
- 1:10decisions have often been shaped by, let's say,
- 1:13inherited wisdom and regional habits, our mission,
- 1:16it's clear. We want you to gain a crystal clear
- 1:19understanding of what the very latest, most comprehensive
- 1:22analysis reveals about treating this recurrent
- 1:24shoulder instability effectively. We're aiming
- 1:26to cut through the noise, bring you the definitive
- 1:29insights, and to help us navigate this, well,
- 1:32intricate and often debated landscape. We are
- 1:34incredibly privileged to be joined today by Professor
- 1:36Mo Imam. His deep expertise and importantly,
- 1:39his recent significant contributions to synthesize
- 1:41the critical evidence in this field are genuinely
- 1:44setting new benchmarks for clinical practice.
- 1:47Professor, it is an absolute pleasure to have
- 1:49you with us for this deep dive. It's genuinely
- 1:51a pleasure to be here, a really vital topic to
- 1:54explore for patients and clinicians too. Professor,
- 1:56before we get into the specific treatments, could
- 1:59you maybe help us grasp the sheer scale of this?
- 2:02The profound impact of recurrent anterior shoulder
- 2:06instability. Who typically gets affected most?
- 2:09And crucially, what are the bigger long -term
- 2:12implications if it's not properly addressed?
- 2:15It sounds like it's much more than just a temporary
- 2:17setback. You've hit on a crucial point there.
- 2:19Recurrent instability of the shoulder is, well,
- 2:22it's far more than a minor issue. It's a truly
- 2:24significant, often quite debilitating complication
- 2:27after that first dislocation, or even sometimes
- 2:29after a less severe subluxation. When you look
- 2:32at the statistics, they are quite sobering actually.
- 2:34Data shows that up to 60%, six zero of patients
- 2:37who have an acute traumatic anterior shoulder
- 2:39dislocation will unfortunately go on to suffer
- 2:42from recurrent instability. 60%, wow. Yes, it's
- 2:46a massive proportion. And what's particularly
- 2:48striking, and frankly quite concerning from a
- 2:50clinical view, is this inverse relationship with
- 2:53age. Put simply, the younger you are when you
- 2:56first dislocate your shoulder, the dramatically
- 2:59higher your risk of it happening again. To give
- 3:01you a concrete example, take a 20 -year -old
- 3:04male patient. After their first traumatic anterior
- 3:07dislocation, the risk of it happening again can
- 3:10be astonishingly high, up to 72%. 72%. Indeed.
- 3:14Think about that. Almost three quarters of young
- 3:16men in that age group could face this problem
- 3:18repeatedly. This figure really highlights that
- 3:21this is overwhelmingly a problem affecting young,
- 3:23active people, often at the peak of their physical
- 3:26activity, whether that's sport or demanding jobs.
- 3:2972 % for a 20 -year -old, that's, well, nearly
- 3:32three out of four. That's not just a clinical
- 3:34statistic, is it? It sounds like a profound,
- 3:37almost life -altering risk for someone just starting
- 3:40their adult life or, say, building an athletic
- 3:42career. It really underscores why just treating
- 3:45the first injury isn't always enough. We need
- 3:48solutions that truly prevent it happening again.
- 3:50Which is exactly what your analysis looks at.
- 3:52Uh -huh. Are there specific risk factors, then?
- 3:55Things that... makes some people more susceptible
- 3:57than others. Absolutely. Beyond age and the,
- 4:01you know, traumatic nature of the initial event,
- 4:03we've identified several key anatomical and patient
- 4:06-specific risk factors. These significantly contribute
- 4:10to these high recurrence rates. They include
- 4:12specific bony lesions on the shoulder joint surfaces.
- 4:15For instance, a hill sex lesion. That's an indentation
- 4:18or compression fracture on the back of the humeral
- 4:20head, the ball part of the joint. It happens
- 4:22when it hits the front of the glenoid socket
- 4:24during the dislocation. Then there's the bank
- 4:26heart lesion. This is where the labrum, that
- 4:28crucial ring of cartilage that deepens the socket,
- 4:31gets torn away from the bone. Both of those indicate
- 4:33structural damage that basically compromises
- 4:36the shoulder's stability. Other factors include
- 4:39the patient's sex males often have higher recurrence
- 4:41rates. their age, as we just discussed, and the
- 4:45presence of what we call hyperlaxity. Hyperlaxity.
- 4:47Yes, essentially meaning someone is naturally
- 4:49double -jointed or has very flexible joints.
- 4:52This predisposes them to instability. These elements
- 4:55act as, well, predictors for who might struggle
- 4:58with recurrent dislocations. So it's not just
- 5:01about the initial pop out of jank. It's about
- 5:03underlying structural issues, maybe bone damage,
- 5:06maybe torn tissue, and even a person's natural
- 5:08joint flexibility. That paints a much clearer
- 5:11picture of the vulnerability. And you mentioned
- 5:13the impact on patients' lives earlier. Could
- 5:15you expand on what disabling affliction really
- 5:17means for these young, active people? What's
- 5:20the real world consequence? Yes, the term disabling
- 5:23affliction is chosen quite deliberately. because
- 5:26that's precisely what it can be. For young, active
- 5:30patients, athletes especially, this isn't just
- 5:33an inconvenience, it can be genuinely career
- 5:35-ending. Think about a professional athlete,
- 5:38a rugby player needing to make powerful tackles,
- 5:40maybe a tennis player serving with force, or
- 5:43even just an avid recreational climber who absolutely
- 5:46relies on full shoulder stability. If their shoulder
- 5:49consistently gives way, they're suddenly unable
- 5:52to participate in their sport, their pre -injury
- 5:54activities. It fundamentally limits their participation,
- 5:57their performance, and often their professional
- 6:00livelihood. We often see patients who just can't
- 6:02return to their prior level of activity, where
- 6:04they live with this constant apprehension, this
- 6:07fear of it happening again. That affects their
- 6:09mental well -being just as much as their physical
- 6:11capacity. It's profoundly limiting. And for our
- 6:14discussion today, it's important just to clarify.
- 6:16When we use the term instability, we're encompassing
- 6:19both subluxation, where the joint partially comes
- 6:21out and then goes back in spontaneously, and
- 6:24frank dislocation, where it completely separates
- 6:26and needs someone to put it back in. We treat
- 6:29them as a single clinical entity here, because
- 6:32both represent a failure of the shoulder to stay
- 6:34stable and can have similar underlying issues
- 6:37and long -term consequences. Beyond that immediate
- 6:40impact on activity and function, there's a really
- 6:42critical long -term consequence, one that often
- 6:45gets overlooked, perhaps, but is maybe one of
- 6:47the most compelling reasons for definitive treatment.
- 6:50Recurrent instability has been positively correlated
- 6:52with a significantly increased risk of subsequent
- 6:55degenerative joint arthritis, decades later.
- 6:58Potentially, yes. What this means is, if these
- 7:02recurring dislocations or subluxations aren't
- 7:04definitively treated, the cumulative trauma to
- 7:07the joint The repeated impact, the wear and tear,
- 7:10can lead to premature degeneration of the joint
- 7:12surfaces. This can cause debilitating arthritis
- 7:15decades down the line, long after their athletic
- 7:17careers might have ended. So treating this effectively
- 7:20isn't just about getting someone back to sport
- 7:22quickly. It's profoundly about protecting their
- 7:24long -term joint health and our overall well
- 7:26-being. This really underscores why finding the
- 7:29optimal evidence -based solution, one that offers
- 7:31true long -term stability, is so absolutely crucial,
- 7:34both for immediate relief and for sustained quality
- 7:36of life. That truly highlights the gravity, doesn't
- 7:39it? It sounds like a problem that doesn't just
- 7:41impact immediate function, quality of life, but
- 7:44casts this long shadow over a patient's joint
- 7:46health for decades. It really brings home the
- 7:49urgent need for effective, evidence -based solutions,
- 7:52not just quick fixes. Given this pressing need,
- 7:55Professor, two surgical procedures seem to, well,
- 7:59dominate the conversation for definitive treatment,
- 8:00the Bancard procedure and the Latarjet procedure.
- 8:03Could you walk us through what each of these
- 8:04involves? shed some light on why there's such
- 8:07a noticeable divide globally in preference for
- 8:09one over the other. Certainly. These two are
- 8:12indeed the primary surgical options for recurrent
- 8:15anterior shoulder instability, and they approach
- 8:17the problem from, well, fundamentally different
- 8:20anatomical and biomechanical angles. Understanding
- 8:23their differences is really key to appreciating
- 8:25the debate around them. Let's start with the
- 8:27Banker procedure. At its core, this procedure
- 8:30is about repairing the damaged soft tissues,
- 8:33the bits that were torn during the dislocation.
- 8:36Specifically, it involves re -tensioning the
- 8:38anterior capsule that's the main ligament structure
- 8:40at the front of the shoulder, which can get stretched
- 8:42or torn, and crucially the direct repair of the
- 8:45ovals labrum. As we discussed, the labrum is
- 8:49that vital ring of cartilage around the shoulder
- 8:51socket, the glenoid. It deepens it, helps stabilize
- 8:54the joint. When the shoulder dislocates, this
- 8:56labrum can be torn away from the bone that's
- 8:58the specific bankart lesion. Right, the torn
- 9:01cartilage ring. Exactly. The procedure typically
- 9:03uses strong sutures, or sometimes small absorbable
- 9:07suture anchors put into the bone, to reattach
- 9:10this torn labrum and tighten up the stretched
- 9:12capsule. The aim is basically to restore the
- 9:15natural anatomy of the joint. Now the Bankart
- 9:18procedure was initially described way back, actually,
- 9:20but gained wider recognition and refinement much
- 9:22later. It has since evolved so it can be done
- 9:25through open surgery, a larger incision, or,
- 9:28much more commonly today, arthroscopically. Keyhole
- 9:31surgery. Precisely. Using small incisions, a
- 9:34tiny camera to see inside the joint, and specialized
- 9:37instruments. Its widespread adduction is quite
- 9:40remarkable. Historically, something like 90 %
- 9:43of surgeons internationally, particularly in
- 9:44North America and parts of Europe, have favored
- 9:46arthroscopic bankart repair as the first line
- 9:48treatment, mainly due to its minimally invasive
- 9:51nature and the perception of restoring the anatomy.
- 9:53So the bankart is essentially patching up the
- 9:56soft tissue damage, like... sewing up a tear,
- 9:59really. And it's been the go -to for a long time,
- 10:01especially the keyhole version. That makes sense.
- 10:04The appeal of less invasive surgery is obvious.
- 10:07But what about the Letarjet procedure, then?
- 10:09How does that differ? And why is there such a
- 10:11strong alternative preference in some places?
- 10:14That's a perfect segue. Because in stark contrast,
- 10:17we have the Letarjet procedure. Sometimes it's
- 10:20more descriptively called the coracoid bone block
- 10:23procedure. This is a more involved surgical technique.
- 10:27It addresses not just the soft tissue damage,
- 10:30but also, and this is critical, potential bone
- 10:33loss or significant structural deficiencies around
- 10:36the glenoid socket itself. It involves transferring
- 10:39a specific piece of the coracoid process that's
- 10:42a small, hooked bit of bone that normally sits
- 10:44off the shoulder blade along with its attached
- 10:46conjoined tendon, which includes parts of the
- 10:48biceps and corcabrachialis muscles. Okay, so
- 10:50you're actually moving a piece of bone. Exactly.
- 10:53This bone block, with the tendon still attached,
- 10:56is then precisely positioned and secured with
- 10:58screws onto the front rim of the glenoid socket.
- 11:01It essentially extends and reinforces the socket
- 11:04forwards. The mechanism here is ingenious, really.
- 11:07It's twofold. Firstly, it creates a physical
- 11:10bony block, a buttress if you like. It physically
- 11:13stops the humeral head from slipping forward
- 11:15out of the joint. Secondly, those transferred
- 11:17muscles, which stay attached to the moved bone,
- 11:20provide a dynamic stabilizing effect. So when
- 11:22the arm moves into positions where it might normally
- 11:25dislocate, these muscles contract, pulling the
- 11:27humeral head back into the socket, an extra layer
- 11:30of stability. This procedure was initially described
- 11:32by Dr. Michel Letargette back in 1954, and he
- 11:35later modified it in 1980. Now what's truly fascinating
- 11:39about the Letargette is its very distinct geographical
- 11:41preference. While Benkart dominates in many regions,
- 11:44you see this stark contrast in places like France.
- 11:47For example, our research indicates that an astonishing
- 11:4972 % of French shoulder surgeons prefer the Letargette
- 11:53procedure as their first -line treatment. 72
- 11:55% compared to 90 % internationally favoring Benkart.
- 11:58Precisely. It truly illustrates the powerful
- 12:02influence of tradition, surgical training environments,
- 12:05local schools of thought on established surgical
- 12:07practice. often more so than global consensus
- 12:10based purely on evidence. That is a staggering
- 12:13regional difference. It's almost like different
- 12:15medical dialects have evolved over time, and
- 12:18this brings us perfectly to what you've termed
- 12:19the consensus gap. Could you elaborate on this
- 12:22core problem? How has it impacted treatment decisions,
- 12:25especially given the historical limitations in
- 12:28the available research you mentioned? Exactly.
- 12:31This geographical divergence really brings us
- 12:33to the heart of this consensus gap. A situation
- 12:36where there's no universally agreed upon gold
- 12:39standard treatment. The core problem has been
- 12:42that the choice of which surgery to perform has
- 12:44largely been based on a surgeon's training background,
- 12:47their personal experience, maybe the prevailing
- 12:50traditions within their region or hospital, rather
- 12:52than on robust, high -level comparative evidence.
- 12:56This has led to significant variation in care.
- 12:58And frankly, it's left many patients, and indeed
- 13:01clinicians, without a definitive answer on what
- 13:04the optimal approach truly is. For a long time,
- 13:07the academic challenge was made worse by inherent
- 13:09limitations in the published literature. Many
- 13:11prior studies were restricted to older retrospective
- 13:14reviews looking back at patient data, or perhaps
- 13:16single surgeon series, where one surgeon reports
- 13:19on their own patients. Now, while these studies
- 13:21can give valuable initial insights, they inherently
- 13:24carry significant risks of confounders, other
- 13:26factors that might skew the outcomes and bias.
- 13:29Right, like maybe surgeons choosing LaTarget
- 13:31only for the really bad cases. Exactly, that
- 13:33sort of thing. A surgeon might unconsciously
- 13:36select Bancart for less severe cases and LaTarget
- 13:39for more complex ones, which makes a direct comparison
- 13:41unreliable. Such studies, while useful, couldn't
- 13:45definitively or systematically compare the efficacy
- 13:48of these two very different procedures in a truly
- 13:50unbiased way. This situation starkly underscored
- 13:54the critical need for a more comprehensive and
- 13:56systematic analysis. One that looks at all the
- 13:59existing evidence, carefully pooling the data
- 14:02to really understand which procedure offered
- 14:04the best, most durable outcomes for patients
- 14:06across the board. That's the gap our work aimed
- 14:09to fill. That deeply entrenched preference, almost
- 14:11like an inherited surgical philosophy, is really
- 14:14eye -opening, especially when science could potentially
- 14:16offer a clearer path. It makes the kind of rigorous
- 14:19analysis you've conducted even more vital for
- 14:22orthopedic professionals, for anyone trying to
- 14:24make the absolute best decisions for patients.
- 14:26So let's talk about that path. How exactly did
- 14:28you and your team go about rigorously comparing
- 14:31these two procedures? How did you try to cut
- 14:33through that traditional bias and give us more
- 14:35definitive answers? What was the methodology
- 14:37behind this deep dive? That's a critical question
- 14:40because the strength and reliability of our conclusions
- 14:43fundamentally hinge on the meticulousness, the
- 14:47rigor of our methodology. Our study was designed
- 14:50as a systematic review and meta -analysis. For
- 14:53those unfamiliar, this is generally considered
- 14:54the highest level of evidence when you're synthesizing
- 14:57existing research. It involves a structured,
- 15:00comprehensive search for all relevant studies
- 15:02on a topic, followed by a statistical pooling
- 15:04of their results. It represents, to date, the
- 15:07largest and most up -to -date comparison of these
- 15:09two specific procedures, Bankert versus Letarget
- 15:13in the published literature. To give you a sense
- 15:15of the sheer volume, the statistical power of
- 15:17the data we examined, our analysis pooled information
- 15:20from seven distinct cohort studies. These are
- 15:23studies that follow groups of patients over time.
- 15:25Collectively, these studies involved a substantial
- 15:27total of 300 -275 patients. Over 3 ,000 patients.
- 15:32That's significant. It is. To break that down
- 15:34further, 2 ,791 individuals had undergone the
- 15:38Bancart repair, while 484 had the Laddarjet procedure.
- 15:42This extensive patient population allowed us
- 15:46to conduct a truly robust, powerful examination
- 15:49of the comparative outcomes. It gives our findings
- 15:52significant statistical weight. Our search strategy
- 15:55was incredibly comprehensive, designed to capture
- 15:58virtually all relevant studies published up to
- 16:00January 2018. We systematically searched across
- 16:03all the major medical and scientific databases.
- 16:06PubMed, Cochrane Central Register -controlled
- 16:08trials, Scopus, Ovid, web of science, this broad
- 16:12systematic approach was absolutely essential
- 16:14to ensure we didn't miss any pertinent research
- 16:16and thus reduce the risk of what's called publication
- 16:18bias, where studies with certain results might
- 16:20be more likely to get published than others.
- 16:22So you cast a really wide net, gathered all the
- 16:24relevant data. Once you had all these studies,
- 16:26how did you then go about aggregating and analyzing
- 16:28such different types of data? You mentioned things
- 16:30like operative time versus whether someone got
- 16:32an infection. How do you compare those statistically?
- 16:35That's a great question. It's all about matching
- 16:37the right statistical tool to the nature of the
- 16:40data we were analyzing. For what we call continuous
- 16:43data, things like operative time, measured in
- 16:45minutes, or patient -reported outcome scores,
- 16:48like the Rose score, which are numerical scales,
- 16:51we pool these as mean differences. This simply
- 16:54allowed us to calculate the average difference
- 16:56in these measures between the two groups, the
- 16:58Bankart group and the Letarjet group. So for
- 17:01example, we could see if one procedure on average
- 17:03took significantly longer or resulted in a higher
- 17:06average score. But for dichotomous data, that
- 17:08is, outcomes that either happened or didn't,
- 17:11a yes or no event, things like whether the shoulder
- 17:13experienced another recurrence, if a revision
- 17:15surgery was needed, if there was a full redislocation,
- 17:18the development of arthropathy, or complications
- 17:20like infection or hematoma. The binary outcome.
- 17:23Exactly. For those, we pooled the results as
- 17:26risk ratios, often abbreviated RR, with 95 %
- 17:30confidence intervals. Our risk ratio is a very
- 17:33powerful measure. It tells us how many times
- 17:35more likely an event was in one group compared
- 17:37to the other. For instance, if the risk ratio
- 17:39for recurrence was, say, 2 .5, it would mean
- 17:42that recurrence was two and a half times more
- 17:44probable in one surgical group compared to the
- 17:46other. The 95 % confidence interval just gives
- 17:49us a range of certainty around that estimate.
- 17:51Now, to ensure the utmost methodological rigor
- 17:54and to minimize any potential bias throughout
- 17:56this complex process, we adhered strictly to
- 17:58the PRISMA guidelines. These are the internationally
- 18:01recognized standards, a checklist really, for
- 18:03histomatic reviews and meta -analyses. They ensure
- 18:06transparency and reproducibility. Our eligibility
- 18:09screening process, deciding which studies to
- 18:11actually include, involved two meticulous steps.
- 18:14Each step was conducted independently by three
- 18:16experienced reviewers. Yes, that redundancy helps
- 18:20ensure that studies are included or excluded
- 18:23consistently and objectively. It prevents any
- 18:26single reviewer's potential bias from influencing
- 18:28the selection. Similarly, the crucial task of
- 18:31data extraction, pulling out all the relevant
- 18:34numbers and facts from the selected studies,
- 18:36was performed independently by three different
- 18:38authors. Any disagreements at either stage, screening,
- 18:42or extraction were thoroughly discussed and resolved
- 18:44by consensus among the reviewers. This multi
- 18:47-reviewer approach is vital for building confidence
- 18:49in the dataset. Furthermore, we rigorously assess
- 18:53the quality of each included study using the
- 18:55Newcastle -Ottawa scale. This is a widely respected
- 18:58tool that evaluates studies based on three key
- 19:00things. How carefully the study participants
- 19:02were selected, how comparable the groups were
- 19:04for important factors that could influence outcomes,
- 19:06and how robustly the outcomes themselves were
- 19:08measured. The included cohort studies in our
- 19:11meta -analysis achieved a high mean score of
- 19:138 out of 9 possible points on this scale. That
- 19:15sounds very good. It is, yes. It's an excellent
- 19:18indicator. It means they were generally of good
- 19:20methodological quality, which further strengthens
- 19:22the credibility and reliability of our pooled
- 19:25results. Finally, and this is where our analysis
- 19:28perhaps made a particularly vital contribution,
- 19:31we placed a crucial focus on follow -up time.
- 19:33This was critical because previous analyses hadn't
- 19:36systematically looked at how the differences
- 19:38in outcomes between the two procedures might
- 19:41evolve, might change over time. There was a growing
- 19:44body of newer evidence suggesting that the true
- 19:46long -term advantage of one procedure over the
- 19:48other might only become really clear with longer
- 19:51observation periods, not just looking at immediate
- 19:53post -op results. Right. Things might look similar
- 19:56early on, but diverge later. Precisely. Our included
- 20:00studies had follow -up periods ranging from as
- 20:02short as just 30 days right up to as long as
- 20:0310 years. This broad range allowed for a truly
- 20:07comprehensive long -term analysis, especially
- 20:10using what we call subgroup analysis based on
- 20:12different follow -up durations. This temporal
- 20:15dimension allowed us to see if, for example,
- 20:16a procedure that seemed comparable in the short
- 20:19term might actually be significantly less effective,
- 20:21or even fail more often, in the long run. It
- 20:24paints a much more complete picture of durability.
- 20:26That's a truly impressive level of methodical
- 20:28investigation, Professor. It really underscores
- 20:31why your findings carry so much weight moving
- 20:33beyond maybe anecdotal experience or single studies
- 20:36to what the collective evidence truly shows.
- 20:39Now, let's get to those critically important
- 20:41results. For patients, and indeed for clinicians,
- 20:45the ultimate measure of success in shoulder stabilization
- 20:47surgery often boils down to one thing, preventing
- 20:50the shoulder from dislocating again. What did
- 20:52your rigorous analysis reveal regarding recurrence
- 20:54and redislocation rates for bankart versus latarjet?
- 20:57Were there any surprises? This is indeed the
- 20:59most critical finding for everyone involved,
- 21:02and our analysis revealed a very clear, I would
- 21:05say quite stark difference. When we looked at
- 21:08overall recurrence rates, and by recurrence,
- 21:11remember, we mean any instance of the shoulder
- 21:13feeling unstable, whether it was a minor subluxation
- 21:16or a full dislocation after the surgery, the
- 21:18findings were absolutely compelling. The arthroscopic
- 21:21bankart procedure was consistently associated
- 21:23with a significantly higher risk of recurrence
- 21:26compared to the Letarjet procedure. Specifically,
- 21:29the risk ratio, the RR, was 2 .87, and the P
- 21:33value was very low. less than 0 .0001 indicating
- 21:37high statistical significance. 2 .87. So what
- 21:41does that mean in practical terms? In practical
- 21:43terms, it means the patients undergoing a bank
- 21:45cart repair were nearly three times more likely
- 21:48to experience some form of recurrent instability
- 21:50compared to those who had the latarjet procedure.
- 21:53Wow. Nearly three times more likely. Exactly.
- 21:56That is a substantial and crucially a statistically
- 21:58highly significant difference. It's not a marginal
- 22:01variation. It's a profound distinction in the
- 22:03stability offered. Okay, that's dramatic for
- 22:06overall recurrence. And how did that play out
- 22:08for actual full -blown dislocations? Was the
- 22:10pattern similar there? Precisely. The pattern
- 22:13was strikingly similar, reinforcing that initial
- 22:15finding. When we focused specifically on overall
- 22:18redislocation rates, which refers to the shoulder
- 22:21fully coming out of the socket again, the picture
- 22:23was equally clear. Arthroscopic bank art was
- 22:26also strongly linked to a higher risk of actual
- 22:29redislocation with a risk ratio of 2 .74 and
- 22:32a p -value of 0 .03. Again, this indicates a
- 22:35substantial and clinically meaningful difference
- 22:37in the long -term stability offered by the two
- 22:39procedures. Now, here's where our study makes
- 22:42perhaps its most significant contribution. Understanding
- 22:45the long -term perspective. We specifically focused
- 22:48on how these outcomes changed over time, because
- 22:51as you said, short -term success isn't always
- 22:52the whole story. What we discovered was that
- 22:55the pronounced advantage for the Letarge procedure
- 22:57in preventing recurrence became most evident
- 22:59with longer follow -up periods. This difference
- 23:02became particularly clear and statistically robust
- 23:04between six and ten years post -operatively.
- 23:07Six to ten years later. Yes. In that extended
- 23:10window, the risk ratio for recurrence with Bankart
- 23:13actually escalated to 3 .00. Just three times
- 23:16the risk again in the long run? It's exactly.
- 23:19After six to ten years, Patients who underwent
- 23:21a Bancart repair were truly three times more
- 23:24likely to experience their shoulder coming out
- 23:26again compared to those who had a Latarjet. This
- 23:29isn't a small, fleeting difference. It's a sustained,
- 23:32powerful, and durable long -term benefit seen
- 23:34with the Latarjet procedure. And we observed
- 23:37an identical, concerning trend for full redislocation
- 23:40as well. The higher redislocation rate for arthroscopic
- 23:44Bancart also became particularly evident in that
- 23:46six - to ten -year postoperative window. with
- 23:49a risk ratio of 2 .85. This consistent pattern,
- 23:53across both recurrence and redislocation, especially
- 23:56when observed over a longer time horizon, strongly
- 23:59suggests something important. It suggests that
- 24:01while a bankrupt repair might hold up reasonably
- 24:03well in the very short term, its effectiveness
- 24:05in maintaining definitive stability significantly
- 24:08diminishes over the medium to long term, when
- 24:10you directly compare it to the lethargic procedure.
- 24:12It's important mention, just for full transparency,
- 24:15that one single study within our analysis did
- 24:17show no significant difference between the procedures
- 24:19at the one to five year mark. Okay, an outlier.
- 24:22Yes, but it's crucial to understand that this
- 24:24single outlier doesn't diminish the robust overall,
- 24:28and particularly the long -term trends we observed
- 24:30from the pooled data across all the included
- 24:33studies. The overwhelming evidence, especially
- 24:35looking at that broader time horizon in the large
- 24:37patient population, clearly points to the Latarjet
- 24:40procedure offering superior sustained long -term
- 24:42stability. This is a critical insight. So the
- 24:45long -term data really paints a very clear, quite
- 24:47compelling picture then. While both procedures
- 24:49are aiming to stabilize the shoulder, The Latarjet
- 24:52appears to offer this distinct, lasting advantage
- 24:54in keeping the shoulder definitively in place,
- 24:57particularly years down the line. That's a powerful
- 24:59and practical insight for anyone considering
- 25:01these options, especially those young, active
- 25:04individuals wanting to get back to high -level
- 25:05activity without that constant fear of it happening
- 25:08again. Now, while stability is paramount, patients
- 25:11obviously worry about the trade -offs, particularly
- 25:14complications and overall functional recovery.
- 25:17There's a common perception, I think, that perhaps
- 25:19more invasive procedures like lethargia might
- 25:21carry inherently higher risks. What did your
- 25:24meta -analysis truly reveal about complications?
- 25:27Things like infection, hematoma, maybe issues
- 25:30with the screws or anchors, and perhaps even
- 25:32more importantly, how do the two procedures compare
- 25:34in terms of patient -reported functional outcomes,
- 25:37those scores that often reflect quality of life
- 25:39after surgery? That's an excellent point and
- 25:41a very common concern. Our findings on complications
- 25:44really do challenge some long -held perceptions,
- 25:47which is, in itself, a significant takeaway from
- 25:50our work. When we meticulously looked at various
- 25:52surgical complications, the picture was, as you
- 25:55hinted, quite nuanced and often surprising. For
- 25:58instance, regarding infection. Our analysis presented
- 26:00a genuinely surprising finding. The Bancart procedure
- 26:03was actually associated with a lower risk of
- 26:05infection compared to Letarget. The risk ratio
- 26:08was 0 .16, with a statistically significant p
- 26:11-value of 0 .0002. Lower risk with Bancart? That
- 26:14is surprising. It is. It means Bancart patients
- 26:17were considerably less likely to develop a post
- 26:20-operative infection based on this data. Now,
- 26:23it's vital to acknowledge a limitation here.
- 26:25The number of studies reporting specifically
- 26:27on infection was relatively small, only three,
- 26:30and the definitions of infection weren't entirely
- 26:32standardized across them. However, based on the
- 26:35available evidence, it does suggest this is a
- 26:37real, albeit potentially small in absolute terms,
- 26:41difference. It's certainly a point for surgeons
- 26:44to be particularly mindful of with the Lodgett.
- 26:46However, when we examined other anticipated complications,
- 26:50that common perception about latarjet being inherently
- 26:52riskier simply didn't hold up in the aggregated
- 26:55data. For hematoma formation, that's a collection
- 26:57of blood near the surgical site, we detected
- 26:59no significant difference between the two procedures.
- 27:02The risk ratio was 0 .20. Similarly, a specific
- 27:06concern often raised about latarjet relates to
- 27:08screw -related complications, given it involves
- 27:10fixing a bone block with screws. Right. You'd
- 27:13think that might cause more issues. You might.
- 27:15But our analysis found no significant difference
- 27:17in screw or anchor -related complications between
- 27:20the two procedures. The risk ratio was 0 .17.
- 27:24This suggests that the presence of screws for
- 27:26Letarjet does not, on the whole, lead to a higher
- 27:29rate of implant issues compared to the anchors
- 27:31used in Bankart. So when we synthesize the overall
- 27:34complication profile, it becomes quite clear.
- 27:37Contrary to perhaps popular belief or historical
- 27:39apprehension, our comprehensive review demonstrated
- 27:42no significant difference in most major treatment
- 27:45-related complications. Beyond that specific,
- 27:48albeit small, observed difference in infection
- 27:50rates. This is a crucial finding. It can profoundly
- 27:54inform patient counseling. It suggests that the
- 27:56superior long -term stability offered by Letarget
- 27:58does not generally come with a higher burden
- 28:00of overall complications. That's a very powerful
- 28:03message for patients and surgeons. That's a huge
- 28:05finding, honestly. Challenging what many might
- 28:08instinctively believe about more complex procedures
- 28:10versus simpler ones. It implies the benefits
- 28:13of liturgy and stability aren't necessarily offset
- 28:16by a higher risk of adverse events overall. What
- 28:19about the long -term health of the joint itself?
- 28:21The development of arthritis? That's a major
- 28:23concern for patients looking decades ahead. You're
- 28:26right. Long -term joint health is absolutely
- 28:28paramount. Moving to long -term arthropathy or
- 28:31the development of degenerative joint arthritis,
- 28:33this was another rather unexpected outcome based
- 28:36on the available data. Primarily reported in
- 28:39one key study within our analysis, we found no
- 28:42significant statistical difference between Bankart
- 28:44and Letarget procedures in the likelihood of
- 28:46developing progressive arthropathy. The risk
- 28:49ratio was 0 .34. No difference in arthritis risk.
- 28:51Right. Despite the difference in instability.
- 28:54Exactly. And this is perhaps surprising, especially
- 28:57when you recall our earlier discussion about
- 28:59the known strong positive correlation between
- 29:02recurrent instability and the risk of subsequent
- 29:04arthritis. Logically, given bankart repair was
- 29:07linked to significantly higher ongoing instability,
- 29:10one might intuitively expect it to lead to more
- 29:13arthropathy over time due to that continued microtrauma.
- 29:17Makes sense. So why wasn't that seen? Well, one
- 29:20potential explanation might relate to the maximal
- 29:22follow -up periods of the studies included. While
- 29:25up to 10 years is substantial, the onset of clinically
- 29:27significant symptomatic arthropathy might often
- 29:30occur beyond that 10 -year mark, meaning we might
- 29:33not have captured its full progression within
- 29:35this dataset. It could also be influenced by
- 29:37other patient factors not consistently captured
- 29:39across all studies. Or perhaps the early signs
- 29:42of arthropathy are simply too subtle to be universally
- 29:45detected and reported within these study designs.
- 29:48It's an area that clearly warrants longer -term,
- 29:51dedicated follow -up studies. That's a fascinating
- 29:53paradox, then. More instability, but not necessarily
- 29:56more measured arthritis within the study's time
- 29:59frame. It really forces us to think about how
- 30:02long long -term truly needs to be when evaluating
- 30:05these outcomes. And speaking of outcomes, let's
- 30:08turn to the patient reported outcomes, specifically
- 30:10using the Rho score. This is often seen as the
- 30:13patient's voice in research. What did you find
- 30:15there, especially given the clear stability differences
- 30:18you've already presented? This is where things
- 30:20get particularly interesting and frankly quite
- 30:22nuanced. It reveals a critical point about how
- 30:25we actually measure success in these cases. Our
- 30:28analysis found no significant difference in patient
- 30:30-reported outcomes as measured by the Rho score
- 30:33between the two procedures. This is despite the
- 30:35glaring significant difference in objective and
- 30:38stability rates we just discussed. No difference
- 30:40in the Rho score. How can that be? Exactly. The
- 30:43mean difference was a mere 0 .22. with a p -value
- 30:46of 0 .94, indicating virtually no statistical
- 30:49difference at all. This apparent paradox demands
- 30:52a deeper look. To understand this, we need to
- 30:54delve into the row score itself. The row score,
- 30:57first published back in 1978, is a physician
- 31:00-led tool. It's designed to assess a patient's
- 31:03shoulder across three key areas. Its stability,
- 31:06its range of motion, and overall function. While
- 31:09it aims to give a picture of patient satisfaction
- 31:11and outcome, it has certain nuances, critical
- 31:14limitations, that can obscure the true picture.
- 31:17Critically, the Rho score is heavily weighted
- 31:19towards the stability variable. Heavily weighted
- 31:21towards stability. Yes. This means if a patient
- 31:23experiences even occasional residual subluxation,
- 31:26maybe a clunking sensation, even if they have
- 31:28excellent range of motion and feel functionally
- 31:30quite good in their daily activities, that instability
- 31:32component will significantly drag their overall
- 31:35Rho score down. It can make the score appear
- 31:36poor or fair, even if other aspects are good.
- 31:40It's almost like a pass fail on stability that
- 31:43can inadvertently overshadow other functional
- 31:45improvements. If a shoulder has any instability,
- 31:48even if it feels quite good to the patient in
- 31:50terms of movement, the score gets penalized heavily.
- 31:53And you mentioned earlier there are different
- 31:55versions of this score floating around. That
- 31:57sounds like it could muddy the waters even further.
- 31:59Exactly right. You've captured the essence of
- 32:00the paradox. It can be quite unforgiving on that
- 32:03stability component. And that single aspect can
- 32:06indeed overshadow other functional gains. And
- 32:09yes, a major persistent problem in the orthopedic
- 32:12literature is that there are actually four different
- 32:15versions of the Rowe score, published over the
- 32:17years with subtle but sometimes significant changes
- 32:19made in 1978, 1981, 1982, and 1988. Unfortunately,
- 32:25studies often don't specify which specific version
- 32:28they use when reporting their results. This inherent
- 32:31lack of standardization in the reporting tool
- 32:33itself makes direct comparisons of row scores
- 32:35across different studies incredibly problematic.
- 32:38It can quite literally obscure genuine underlying
- 32:41differences in stability when only the combined
- 32:44overall score is reported. Secondly, another
- 32:46reason for the similar row scores, despite objective
- 32:49stability differences, could simply be if the
- 32:51function and mobility components of the score
- 32:53were significantly similar between the two groups.
- 32:55If patients in both the Bancard and Letarget
- 32:58groups regain excellent range of motion and were
- 33:01able to perform daily tasks with similar ease,
- 33:04these components, even if stability differed,
- 33:06might influence the overall score sufficiently
- 33:08to mask that underlying difference in stability
- 33:11when you just look at that single combined row
- 33:14number. This truly highlights that functional
- 33:17outcome is a complex, multifaceted measure. A
- 33:21similar composite score doesn't necessarily mean
- 33:23the underlying stability problem has been addressed
- 33:25with equal effectiveness. It's a key lesson in
- 33:28interpreting these outcome measures carefully.
- 33:31Finally, just briefly regarding operative time.
- 33:33One study within our review did report on this.
- 33:35It found that arthroscopic bankart was associated
- 33:38with a shorter operative time by about 225 minutes.
- 33:41Shorter time for bankart. Yes, but this finding
- 33:44was based on limited data from just that one
- 33:46study. So while we noted it, it doesn't carry
- 33:49the same statistical weight or generalizability
- 33:52as our more broadly pooled data for recurrence
- 33:55and complications. An interesting point, but
- 33:58needs more robust evidence, really. That's a
- 34:01vital distinction, Professor. It really underscores
- 34:03that functional outcome is complex. We can't
- 34:06just rely on a single composite score number.
- 34:09While a patient's reported satisfaction or perceived
- 34:11function might seem similar, the underlying stability
- 34:13can differ profoundly, with potential implications
- 34:16over a very long timeline that a single score
- 34:19might not fully capture. It certainly makes you
- 34:21think critically about how we define and measure
- 34:24true surgical success. Now, while this comprehensive
- 34:27analysis is incredibly insightful, providing
- 34:29very clear trends, as you've mentioned, no single
- 34:32study tells the entire story. What were some
- 34:34of the limitations or nuances you encountered
- 34:36in the available evidence? Things that prevented
- 34:39an even clearer, more definitive picture? And
- 34:41crucially, what important questions still remain
- 34:43for future research in this field? That's an
- 34:45absolutely crucial point to address. No study,
- 34:48no matter how rigorous, is entirely without its
- 34:51limitations. Understanding these nuances is key
- 34:54to interpreting the findings correctly and, perhaps
- 34:57even more importantly, guiding future research
- 35:00efforts. The primary limitation we encountered
- 35:02was the inherent level of evidence in the existing
- 35:04literature. While we meticulously selected only
- 35:07well -conducted studies, the included literature
- 35:10largely consists of Level 3 quality evidence,
- 35:12primarily cohort studies. Ideally, for truly
- 35:15definitive, unassailable conclusions, especially
- 35:17when comparing two different surgical procedures
- 35:19like this, we would prefer randomized controlled
- 35:21trials, RCTs, level 1 evidence. The gold standard
- 35:24for comparison. Exactly. RCTs are specifically
- 35:27designed to minimize bias by randomly assigning
- 35:30patients to different treatment groups. This
- 35:32ensures any differences observed are truly due
- 35:35to the intervention itself, not other confounding
- 35:37factors. With cohort studies, there are inherent
- 35:41weaknesses and risks of bias that, despite our
- 35:44best efforts in the meta -analysis, cannot be
- 35:46entirely eliminated. Our systematic review synthesizes
- 35:49the best available evidence, but it can only
- 35:52ever be as strong as the underlying studies it
- 35:54incorporates. Ideally, we'd want more level 1
- 35:57evidence from well -designed RCTs. Another significant
- 36:00nuance that introduced complacity was the variability
- 36:03in the surgical techniques themselves. Even within
- 36:06the broadly defined bankard and letterjet procedures,
- 36:09there was a surprising lack of standardization
- 36:11in the exact operative techniques used across
- 36:13the various studies. For instance, with latarjet,
- 36:16this could involve subtle but potentially impactful
- 36:18variations, like the precise position of the
- 36:21coracoid bone block, or the number and type of
- 36:23screws used to fix it. Similarly, for bank card
- 36:25repairs, we saw variations in the number or type
- 36:28of suture anchors used, or exactly how the capsule
- 36:31was handled during the repair. Furthermore, some
- 36:33studies even included patients who underwent
- 36:36additional or combined procedures. Ah, mixing
- 36:39things up even more. Precisely. For example,
- 36:42some bank card patients might have also had additional
- 36:44capsular imprecation, a tightening of the capsule.
- 36:47Or some latar jet groups included patients who
- 36:49had concomitant capsular shifts. or even a few
- 36:52patients who underwent both letarget and bankart
- 36:55repairs simultaneously. This makes direct, truly
- 36:59apples -to -apples comparisons more challenging.
- 37:01The specific surgical intervention wasn't always
- 37:04uniformly applied, introducing some heterogeneity
- 37:07that's difficult to fully account for. That's
- 37:09a fascinating point about the subtle variations
- 37:11in technique. It's almost like different chefs
- 37:13using slightly different ingredients or methods
- 37:15for the same basic recipe. And you also mentioned
- 37:18patient heterogeneity and unreported data. That
- 37:20sounds like a major challenge for robust comparison.
- 37:22How did that impact your ability to draw even
- 37:25more precise conclusions? Indeed, patient heterogeneity
- 37:29and the sheer amount of unreported data proved
- 37:31to be a crucial and complex limitation. This
- 37:35is where selection bias becomes a significant
- 37:37concern that we couldn't fully mitigate. Many
- 37:40of the included studies simply did not provide
- 37:42detailed information regarding the severity of
- 37:44the instability. For example, precisely how many
- 37:47dislocations a patient had experienced before
- 37:49surgery, or, critically, the presence and extent
- 37:52of associated pathology. This includes vital
- 37:54anatomical factors like the presence and size
- 37:57of hill -sax lesions on the humeral head, or
- 37:59the presence and magnitude of bony bank cart
- 38:01lesions where there's actual bone loss from the
- 38:03glandoid rim itself. And that missing data is
- 38:05really important. absolutely vital because it
- 38:08raises the strong possibility that the LATR -JET
- 38:10procedure might have been preferentially performed
- 38:12for patients with more severe instability or
- 38:16for those with significant co -existent bone
- 38:18pathology. In clinical practice, Latarget is
- 38:21often reserved for these more complex scenarios
- 38:24where a soft tissue repair alone, like Bankart,
- 38:27might not be sufficient. Now, if Latarget was
- 38:30indeed consistently applied to these more challenging
- 38:33cases, then the superior outcomes we observe
- 38:35for Latarget in preventing recurrence might actually
- 38:38be an underestimation of its true advantage for
- 38:40these particularly difficult presentations. Right.
- 38:42It might be even better than the numbers show
- 38:44for those specific cases. Potentially. Or, conversely,
- 38:48it might simply suggest that Letterjet is inherently
- 38:51better suited for those more severe anatomical
- 38:53presentations, which would be a valuable insight
- 38:56in itself, but one that the current aggregated
- 38:59data doesn't fully allow us to unpack with absolute
- 39:02certainty. To highlight this further, it's particularly
- 39:05frustrating that numerous included studies did
- 39:07not report the magnitude of glenoid bone loss.
- 39:09This is a critical piece of information. Glenoid
- 39:11bone loss is a strong discriminator in clinical
- 39:14practice when deciding the appropriate surgical
- 39:15strategy. Without this detail, our ability to
- 39:19fully contextualize the results and draw definitive
- 39:21conclusions about patient -specific suitability
- 39:23for each procedure is significantly limited.
- 39:25So in essence, the Latarject group might have
- 39:28comprised patients with more challenging conditions
- 39:30to begin with. which makes its superior stability
- 39:33finding perhaps even more compelling. Or maybe
- 39:35it just highlights its specific utility for those
- 39:38very cases. That adds really important layers
- 39:40of nuance to the findings. It shows that while
- 39:43the trends seem clear, the complexities of individual
- 39:45patient factors, subtle surgical variations,
- 39:48always need to be meticulously considered when
- 39:50translating research into actual clinical practice
- 39:53for an individual. And it certainly sets the
- 39:55stage for where future deep dives might take
- 39:58us. Are there any other major unanswered questions
- 40:01that weren't covered in your current scope. Absolutely.
- 40:04Finally, an important unanswered question, though
- 40:06it is beyond the specific scope of this meta
- 40:08-analysis, is the critical aspect of return to
- 40:11sport. For young, active patients affected by
- 40:14shoulder instability, particularly professional
- 40:17athletes or those with high -demand occupations,
- 40:20a primary concern isn't just overall stability
- 40:22or general function, but crucially, the ability
- 40:25to return to their specific sporting activities.
- 40:27And perhaps even more importantly, to return
- 40:30to their pre -injury level of competition and
- 40:32performance without fear of re -injury. A huge
- 40:35factor for them. Immense. While our review focused
- 40:38on objective stability and broad functional scores,
- 40:41this specific area of return to sport, particularly
- 40:43at a high level, and the comparative outcomes
- 40:46between Bancart and LaTargeette in that regard,
- 40:48is a vital consideration. It requires further
- 40:50dedicated systematic review, the very practical,
- 40:53patient -centric question that we don't yet have
- 40:56definitive answers for in a truly comparative
- 40:58sense. This really does add important layers
- 41:00of nuance. It shows that while the trends are
- 41:03clear, Those complexities, individual patient
- 41:06factors, surgical variations, specific functional
- 41:09goals like sport, always need careful consideration
- 41:12when translating broad research into precise
- 41:15individualized clinical practice. And it certainly
- 41:17sets the stage for where future deep dives might
- 41:20take us perhaps into that fascinating area of
- 41:22return to sport. So to tie it all together then,
- 41:26what we've unpacked today through this extensive
- 41:28and meticulous analysis is that while both the
- 41:30Bankhart and Letarjet procedures are certainly
- 41:32effective at preventing recurrence and optimizing
- 41:35shoulder function, the Letarjet procedure consistently
- 41:38demonstrates a distinct and really quite significant
- 41:41advantage in maintaining robust shoulder stability,
- 41:44particularly over the longer term, specifically
- 41:46between that six and 10 year mark post surgery.
- 41:49Importantly, the superior stability does not,
- 41:51for the most part, seem to come with a significantly
- 41:53higher burden of most post -operative complications,
- 41:55although we did note that slightly higher risk
- 41:57of infection, specifically with La Tarjet. This
- 42:00deep dive, we hope, offers you a direct shortcut
- 42:03to understanding the latest, most comprehensive
- 42:06evidence in this critically important field.
- 42:08It should empower you, hopefully, to confidently
- 42:11engage with discussions around shoulder instability
- 42:13treatment. Whether you're a healthcare professional
- 42:16striving for optimal patient outcomes, maybe
- 42:18an athlete navigating these challenging decisions,
- 42:20or simply someone looking to stay exceptionally
- 42:23well -informed about leading medical advances.
- 42:25If you found this deep dive valuable, we'd be
- 42:28incredibly grateful if you'd consider rating
- 42:30and sharing it with someone who might also benefit
- 42:32from these vital insights. Given the nuances
- 42:34we've discussed today, those fascinating historical
- 42:36preferences shaping practice, the compelling
- 42:39new data on long -term stability, and indeed
- 42:41the remaining gaps in understanding exactly how
- 42:44patient -specific factors, anatomy, lifestyle
- 42:47demands, truly influence individual outcomes.
- 42:50The ongoing challenge for clinicians isn't just
- 42:52knowing which procedure is generally more effective
- 42:54overall. It's about truly discerning for whom
- 42:57each procedure offers the most profound and lasting
- 43:00benefit. This comprehensive evidence serves as
- 43:03a crucial compass guiding us towards better practice.
- 43:07But the art of medicine, as always, continues
- 43:08to demand a thoughtful, individualized interpretation
- 43:11of unique patient needs against the backdrop
- 43:14of the most robust scientific findings available.
- 43:17It's a continuous journey, really, of learning
- 43:19and refinement. A truly thought -provoking conclusion,
- 43:22Professor, and a perfect reminder that that journey
- 43:24of learning, of applying the best evidence, never
- 43:27truly ends. Thank you so much for joining us
- 43:29for this deep dive today. We look forward to
- 43:31our next exploration with you.