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The Forbidden Crush · Sunday Scaries: Work Edition

• 0:03
  Welcome to The Sunday Scaries: Work Edition.
• 0:05
  A podcast for hot takes and real talk on all your workplace quandaries.
• 0:10
  Hosted by two burned-out girlbosses who've seen it all.
• 0:13
  I'm Bijal Mehta. I started my career building warehouse and superfast delivery for the Internet's magical two-day shipping. I've worked in Africa, Asia, Europe, and North America with both big tech and start-ups. Over 15 years, I became a Vice President, leading drone-delivery operations. I've managed more than 500 people across the world and these days, I raise my playful daughter and chat with my good friend, Emily.
• 0:37
  And I'm Emily Tao. I got my start making coffee as a production assistant at CBS News. Eventually, I became the first Director of Communications at the largest entertainment union in the U.S. and Canada. My 15-year career - and counting - has taken me from red carpets to political fights to Ivy League admissions offices.
• 0:57
  We're here for your weekly dose of workplace reality. Let's jump in!
• 1:04
  Hey, Emily. Hi, Bij. How you doing? I'm great because I just ate a donut and I've been craving it most of the morning.
• 1:14
  It's been quite a few hours. Oh, that's right, you have been. And then we just lucked into some free donuts. Yeah, and it was glazed, which is like the most classic flavor. And then if you want to go get donuts - I feel like for me, it's pretty rare, even though I am third trimester pregnant now.
• 1:31
  Man, the cravings are strong. And when I go get donuts, which is rare, I want to try like a fancy flavor. So you don't really go for a classic glazed. Wait, are you a glazed or a caked? I'll eat whatever. I'll eat anything sweet. You're team donut. I'm team donut - if it's bad, I'll eat it. I'll eat it.
• 1:48
  All right, shall we get to our question today? Yes, let's get into it. All right, so you have not heard this question. I have not. But I lined up what I think is a pretty juicy one. Okay. "Dear Sunday Scaries: hypothetically speaking - hypothetically - what if someone caught feelings for their direct report? Like purely academic curiosity here, totally not me. Signed, Curious.
• 2:17
  My eyes are huge right now. Let's hear it. What are your raw thoughts on this? I feel so old because I'm like gross. Okay, two thoughts. One, this reminds me: I, in the last year or two, got into reading romance books, and there are many romance tropes, right? And one is like a workplace romance, which is quite popular. So I read a book or two on that because I, you know, I'm just exploring. And I told my husband, I was like, I cannot think of anything grosser than hooking up with someone at work. And he's like, well, Emily, you've only worked at places that have super old people, which is true, like labor unions and universities.
• 2:55
  And he's like, so you would not hook up with anyone because they're like 60 years older than you. I was like, okay. And he's like, in other workplaces, people are the same age or kind of close. So they're attracted to each other. And I was just like, ugh. So that's one. Second, gross, disgusting. Don't do that. Don't have feelings for a direct report. It's just like the imbalance of power. It's just so sloppy. And I'm like, unless it ends up in true love, which that's a whole other thing to unpack. And I don't really believe in despite my life right now.
• 3:28
  Wait, you don't really believe in true love or that workplace romance can turn into true love? I don't think workplace romance can turn into true love. I think there is like a taboo that makes it hotter. And then once you get out of the workplace, you're just like, ugh. It's just messy. But you do believe in true love.
• 3:44
  I don't. Oh, okay. I don't. I also don't believe in true love. There's no path to true love. Got it. Yeah. None. Give up now.
• 3:53
  What are you visualizing? Are you visualizing like, because of your work background, what are you - if you guys could see her face right now. Are you visualizing just the people you used to work with and how unattractive they are? Are you visualizing the drama of it? Are you visualizing people who are like just very self-absorbed and selfish? Like what's the image? Because it's funny. I'm not having - well, I kind of have this analogy that I'm just like people are just cardboard boxes to me now.
• 4:24
  I think it's because you worked in a place that really supports cardboard boxes. Genuinely, I'm like you are just like imagine a robot made out of cardboard boxes. But it was how I worked. Like I'm like, if I don't meet you in a romantic context, there's just no, there's no chance. And this was also true in college. Like if one of my friends had said I have a crush on that guy or if, you know, they were dating, that guy became for me a cardboard box. Like I don't even have, I don't even - forget crush. I don't even think I have flirts. Like I just, you're a box.
• 5:03
  So if it's not in this, like if it's not a realm of possibility for you, you automatically rule it out and it doesn't even come close to like attraction. Yeah. It's almost like that part of me is just closed for business. Wow. I sound like such a frigid old lady right now.
• 5:23
  You know, there's been a few occasions of me being like that individual is attractive and I do feel a little tingle of something. But it's, I would just never. I don't want the drama of it. So I would just never, in a workplace environment, get with someone. Like I don't want that drama. Yeah.
• 5:42
  Even so, I find myself not having the same visceral disgust that you seem. It grosses me out! Like we're on the same page in some ways, but you're disgusted. So I'm going back to that. What are you visualizing right now that's so disgusting for you? The other part is like against my choice, I am heterosexual. And I'm like, oh, men. Against your choice. More men? Gross.
• 6:05
  Ugh, old men? Gross. Men, you have to work with? Gross. I have to have meetings with him? Gross.
• 6:13
  Yeah. I think it's interesting about, you know, I think I never thought about what is appropriate for a crush or not. I have been in my one relationship for so long. I've never dated in the modern age, right? And there are times where you're like, oh, this person's really hot. This person's cute. There's some attraction. But it doesn't go past that.
• 6:33
  And it does take a lot of energy, concentration to go past that, even if you want to. And thinking about it in a workplace setting - I think our similarities are that we have worked in places that I would say are male-dominated. We have worked with people where we are in positions of power relative to them. And, for example, I have managed people who are men who are older men. And there's some real resentment that came with that. And like resentment is never attractive.
• 7:03
  And then the other part is I think just, I wonder if we were raised - and this is a stereotype of being like Asian women, right? You're not really encouraged - you're encouraged to anti-date. You're encouraged to do your studies, be a proper good girl. And that does not include like thinking about dating prospects, talking about that with your parents. Maybe you talk about it with your friends. But all my friends were nerds.
• 7:31
  But, yeah, it's grossing me out in a way that I see is not grossing you out, but that you still wouldn't be for.
• 7:38
  Yeah, I wouldn't do this. I mean, I haven't done this. I've 100% been in work and people have been asking, what do I do? I have feelings for this person. I've had this conversation in real life basically with coworkers. Oh, my God. Yeah. What did you say?
• 7:57
  I have been in situations where people I found out much later after I left the job, people were hooking up with each other at conferences. And I was like, this is the grossest thing, disgusting. And I'm very happy for them. They are all consenting. They had a great time.
• 8:11
  I think they knew not to tell me because at the time I was such a young leader, a young woman leader. I felt, you know, and was very out of place in many ways, that I was really focused on being professional. I wanted to look professional. I wanted to act professional. I did not want to have any way for others to attack me and question why I was here.
• 8:34
  So I did dress much more conservative. There were a lot of like happy hour and social events and I would have one drink only. People did not stop at one drink and I would have one. And so I became known for, oh, she doesn't drink. Therefore, the implied thing with that is she's not going to be down to listen to our stories about having crushes with coworkers and like having flings and hookups, which I'm sure they had a lot of fun. But yeah, I'm very sure I transmitted that to everyone around me very strongly, so.
• 9:03
  Interesting. Yeah, I never really had experience with this because it grosses me out. And everybody knows that. I've had multiple instances of friends and colleagues who have had longstanding relationships. Some - in one case, they did get married. Oh, wow. Yeah. In other cases, it maybe broke up marriages or relationships. Yeah. And they're not together, as well in other cases, I think they're together. I don't know. I don't keep in touch anymore.
• 9:38
  So like, I'm - now that I'm - like honestly, there are more examples coming to my head and I'm like, wow. I actually give kind of different advice than I take. Huh. Yeah. Basically, I kind of stick to the HR playbook. If they're in your chain of command, it's a no-go. Like, period. Yeah. Because you fundamentally are here to work.
• 10:00
  And in the professional chain of command, it's just, there's too much power then that is a part of the relationship. And like all relationships do have a power dynamic to them. So you have a power dynamic in love and romance in your relationship. But then if that is also stacked into the place that you work and are spending, you know, 40, 50, 60 hours a week, it's just, it's really, really unhealthy even if there were no HR rules about that. Like just you don't want to do that to someone. That's not real love. Like you don't know if that's free will or free choice, you know?
• 10:39
  It's like you don't want to be on the receiving end of something that you're like, do you know really why they're entering into this relationship with you? You know? And so, yeah, I'm just like that's messy on a HR level. That's messy on a workplace level. Legally, of course, very dicey depending on where you live, you know, what country and stuff. But it's, I think it's also, I don't think that's healthy for you emotionally. Like that's not the relationship you really want to be in when you have those kinds of questions going on.
• 11:14
  And at the same time, I have given – so like most of the examples of people have not been in the direct chain of command. I think people kind of understand that they have to get out of it or they can't act on it or they're going to keep it a secret. They're definitely not telling me, right, because you can't tell other people at the workplace if you are entering into something like that, I think, because it's very – I mean it's a fireable offense, right? So it's very bad for you.
• 11:42
  So they're not talking about it that much. But I know – but I have talked to a lot of people who, with like peers. And, you know, I think I kind of say like, well, it's not what I would do. But if you feel so strongly, you just need to make sure there's some kind of separation between church and state situation which I know one person who I think did it really well and I know them pretty well.
• 12:11
  You know, there was definitely chaos on the personal front. They were both with other people at the time, right, but I think no chaos in the workplace. So I do respect that.
• 12:22
  Wow. I know another person who, they didn't do that well. There was a lot of chaos in the workplace because these were individuals who also each on their own accord had a lot of power at the company. They did come out, like people knew about the relationship after a point. So that was good, they were transparent about it.
• 12:39
  But then there was just a lot of odd behavior because they didn't do the separation of church and state. And so like you could be calling one of them and then the other person is on – you know, it's on speaker. No! The other person is in the background. And now a person from another department who has a lot of power knows the information. Ew, I hate that. Yeah!
• 13:00
  I guess we kind of do that, maybe? I don't know. You know, you're just on phone and your spouse or your partner is like on the background. But if they don't work in your place of work or are like completely unrelated to it, it's like technically not great. But it has no meaningful – this has meaningful consequence, right?
• 13:18
  And there were a lot of decisions that - because these two individuals led departments. Oh, my gosh, they made it so messy! They worked together a lot. So then there's these decisions they had a lot of influence over and they made together. And they are just kind of messy individuals.
• 13:33
  So I think they couldn't keep that separate. It did feel like the personal leaked into the professional. It certainly was like uncomfortable as someone working with – like it got to the point where I think many people including myself was like if you tell one, you're telling the other.
• 13:50
  That's gross. And it's going – and they're going to talk about it together. It's not just that they know, they're going to talk about it. They're going to – oh, we came up with this solution together. It's like I didn't ask you to! I don't like that. Yeah. So there was – That feels bad because it affects you, it's outside of them.
• 14:05
  I hear the judgmentalness, right, in saying that it's gross, and I do recognize people are people. How do you meet people? You spend so much time at work. Some workplaces are, in a way, kind of self-selecting you of people with similar backgrounds, interests, education. And these are the things you would screen for in like a dating profile or something, right? So I get that.
• 14:25
  But like to co-come up with, I don't know, solutions to a different co-worker's issue when you shouldn't be involved, that's real gross. Like that's when it starts to feel icky or one of many instances in which you can feel icky.
• 14:41
  Question for you because I think you brought up a great point. I would say I've also not worked in work environments where people are in the same age range. I've often been on the younger side. You know, I kind of moved up earlier in my career, so I often felt younger to my peers and stuff.
• 14:59
  But what if you're like, you are working with peers, which was true for a lot of the field operations I was managing. So this came up a lot as me being the manager. Fortunately, I was in charge of designing policy and making that part really – and we got ahead of it. And so I think that kept a lot of the dramas to a minimum.
• 15:19
  But certainly people were getting with each other, you know? And what if it's also like not a job that's really your career job? What if you're just working at Starbucks, right? Like does it matter if you sleep with your manager at Starbucks or have a relationship with them? Part of my brain is like I feel like some of those environments, it's like more harmless or maybe it's more harmful, I don't know.
• 15:48
  I think it can be harmful because it still involves a power dynamic, right? Sleeping with your manager and if they're assigning shifts for you and your other co-workers at the same power level, that's when the questions start to come in. Is there favoritism, right? So I can see problems there.
• 16:04
  It's almost so low-stakes in some ways that it's like more ripe for drama. Oh, yeah. I would definitely favorite the person. You gave her a Saturday off. Oh, yeah. Oh, is it because I saw on Insta you guys went on a date together? Sure, absolutely. I definitely would. I've never done that, I've never been in that situation, but I could see myself doing that very easily without a second thought.
• 16:25
  And I do think a lot of the judgmentalness comes when this isn't a corporate or office setting. But I have also worked with people who work in like entertainment, right? They're in the field doing production and they're seeing different people. There's happy hours after and it's really fun. It's like a fun work environment. You make a lot of friends. You can have hookups. You can find the love of your life.
• 16:49
  And for that, like that feels different for me. But I think it doesn't necessarily involve a power dynamic as it would if it was directly a manager or directly like someone that reported to you. It could just be someone in AV working with someone with, I don't know, in stage or something like that, right? And so you're all kind of moving parts on the same even playing field in terms of power.
• 17:13
  Okay. So let's go back to your key takeaway then. What is your answer to our submission, Miss Curious, Miss or Mister Curious? Ew. That's my takeaway! Gross. Don't be curious. And what's your advice to them and also what's kind of a takeaway for yourself?
• 17:32
  Oh, gosh. The takeaway for them, I think it really depends on the structure that they're in, the power structure, the job structure. Where does the power lay? What responsibilities do they have? Well, this is a direct report. Who has the crush again? The boss. Don't do it. Stop it. Okay. That's my—I hit their hand. Don't do that. Don't do it! Stop it.
• 17:58
  And if it really does need to be something, then remove yourself from this. Can you move this person so that they're not your direct report? What can actually be done? Because I think it's very selfish if you think only of yourself and your crush when it can affect so many other people's livelihoods. That's where your responsibility lies, I think, as a good manager.
• 18:19
  I think the takeaway for myself is I am more judgmental than I realize. Yeah. But also possibly I'm quite tired and the thought of dating and — Ugh, exhausting. Good luck to these people. And I do want to recognize people are people. So I am really interested in hearing other people's takes because for me, I'm just like, I'm so tired. Why can't you just date and marry your first boyfriend and have a great life, which is very stupid. I hear that.
• 18:51
  I think my answer for Curious here is the same as yours, which is you can't do it. They're your direct report. I think even in a, you know, maybe a more chill or just like different work environments, like even where the employee base is like shifting more or whatever it might be, you just can't because you have this duty as a boss. Yeah. I think your point about it affecting other people's livelihoods is spot on.
• 19:20
  I'm a little more open if it's a peer, you know. And so there are things you can do, like maybe you need to leave that job. Maybe you need to move to a different team. Right? So, you know, you can consider those things if you really want to act on this.
• 19:36
  But respect that you have the feelings. Honor that. You can't, you know, you can't deny what's true for you. And as I learned from romance books, the taboo only makes it hotter, so there's that. There's that. Yeah. Might not work out apparently. True love does not exist. So don't bother.
• 19:55
  I think my takeaway for myself actually is I guess I give different advice than I act on, which is so strange. But I'm less judgmental on this. But like I think more than that is the idea that the answer to this question can change with age. Because it's like - and life stage, like your perspective on dating influences how you think about this question, your perspective on, you know, like men or women. Right. And like just as you grow and like maybe if you get hurt a few times, that would change how you think about this question. If anything, I think I might be more open to the idea that I don't have to go in with the cardboard box mentality. Like I'm like I can allow for the crush to exist. I just don't need to act on it.
• 20:46
  Yeah. I think I was like stopping attraction from happening in the first place. And that's normal. That's human. Like why deny that part of yourself? I have a lot of confidence in my own discipline to not act on such things though. And, you know, so like I think that's an interesting. I'm like leaning more towards, yeah, let's bring on the workplace flirtation! Yeah. This is a very strange way to conclude on this question. Emily here judging me even harder.
• 21:15
  You know, maybe you'll find your true love. Maybe I'll find true love. At your next job. At my next job. But I will quit that job so that I can act on it. And make sure you don't manage them. And make sure I never manage them. Absolutely. Yeah.
• 21:28
  Well, there you have it, Curious. Thank you for your question. I hope something in this was of use to you. We certainly loved talking about it. 'Til next time.
• 21:41
  That's it for this week's Sunday Scaries: Work Edition. If this episode resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review!
• 21:51
  Got a workplace horror story or a burning question? Send it our way at sunday.scaries.work.edition@gmail.com. We might tackle it in a future episode. Or just have a good private laugh.
• 22:06
  Sunday Scaries: Work Edition is produced by Emily Tao and Bijal Mehta. Our theme music is by Bitter Old Men and artwork is by Erin Leeder. Until next week: may your inbox stay manageable and your work-life balance tip towards life. Bye!