Latest / The Steve Harvey Morning Show / “Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father” a discussion of fatherhood with The Today Show co-host Craig Melvin. vin.

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“Pops: Learning to Be a Son and a Father” a discussion of fatherhood with The Today Show co-host Craig Melvin. vin. · The Steve Harvey Morning Show

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Speaker 1: your dream. My interviews, I bring on money main conversations
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Speaker 1: you might see with celebrity ceo, entrepreneurs, and what I
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Speaker 1: like to call industry decision makers. My next guest is
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Speaker 1: a Craig Melvine. He's the co host of The Today
2:06
Speaker 1: Show and the author of the book Pops Learning to
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Speaker 1: Be a Son and the Father. You may know Criggs
2:12
Speaker 1: and the war winning news anchor. As I said earlier
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Speaker 1: on the Today's Show, you also have seen him on
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Speaker 1: MSNBC Live and the host of Dateline. He's on the
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Speaker 1: show discussed this book, Pops Learning to Be a Son
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Speaker 1: and the Father. It's the story of all the father
2:24
Speaker 1: figures in Craig's life and that includes inspiring men from
2:27
Speaker 1: his program or his series called Dad's Got this series
2:31
Speaker 1: on NBC NBC News Today. These experiences, encounters of shapes
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Speaker 1: crests understanding of his own role as a dad, and
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Speaker 1: I'm sure I can be related. We'll have a nice
2:39
Speaker 1: conversation since Father's Day has recently passed. He has two
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Speaker 1: young children. Please welp with the money making conversation, my man,
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Speaker 1: Craig Melvin. How you doing, Creig Sewing. I'm well, I'm well.
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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Always enjoy your conversation.
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Speaker 1: So I have to be a part of one. Thank you.
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Speaker 1: A Southern boy South Carolina. You know you know, uh,
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Speaker 1: you know when I when I see people on TV
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Speaker 1: and you saw articulate, there's no yalls, there's no access.
3:08
Speaker 1: How does a man come straight out of Columbia? I
3:10
Speaker 1: know color because Steve Harvey. I used to go down
3:12
Speaker 1: a lot of performative town center selling that place out
3:15
Speaker 1: all the time. So I'm fair for me with South Carolina, Charleston,
3:18
Speaker 1: that whole low country. There's no low country in your tone.
3:23
Speaker 1: What's going on there? You are? You break that low
3:25
Speaker 1: country accent? Low country accent because I didn't. I never,
3:28
Speaker 1: I never had it. My mom, Uh, you'll appreciate this
3:32
Speaker 1: growing up in Houston, the way that you grew up.
3:35
Speaker 1: My mom grew up in the projects and first in
3:39
Speaker 1: the family to go to college and first in the
3:41
Speaker 1: family to get a graduate degree. So when we came along,
3:45
Speaker 1: she wanted to expose us to two things and places
3:50
Speaker 1: that she had not been exposed to. And consequently, I
3:55
Speaker 1: think it's I was probably fourteen or fifteen, and she
3:58
Speaker 1: had us take part in the oratorical contests, um and
4:03
Speaker 1: and that was was kind of how it started. So
4:06
Speaker 1: I took some public speaking classes and then these oratorical contests,
4:12
Speaker 1: and then the next thing you knew, I had what
4:14
Speaker 1: they what they like to call in the business a
4:17
Speaker 1: nondescript dialect. You can't really tell based on listening to
4:22
Speaker 1: me where I'm from. It's a blessing. Now when I
4:26
Speaker 1: was growing up, it was always he's he's talking white. Absolutely,
4:30
Speaker 1: he talks like he talks like a white boy. So
4:33
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it was the curse. Now it's
4:36
Speaker 1: a blessing. Well, you know, it's interesting because I knew
4:39
Speaker 1: in my middle school. I remember my teacher used to
4:41
Speaker 1: always ask me to read, just always ask me to read.
4:44
Speaker 1: And you know, people talk about bullying, and you know,
4:46
Speaker 1: when you people are talking about they call you snowflake.
4:49
Speaker 1: That was a formal bully. And then so it's it's
4:51
Speaker 1: popularized now because people are willing to talk about it.
4:54
Speaker 1: But we all grew up in some form of physical
4:56
Speaker 1: or mental abuse from high school kids or people in
4:59
Speaker 1: the neighborhoo it and my remember this, this this girl,
5:02
Speaker 1: she made such a big deal that I was always
5:05
Speaker 1: asked to read. That It almost, I have to say,
5:08
Speaker 1: traumatized me because I went exactly the opposite. I wanted
5:12
Speaker 1: to talk, I wanted to say, ain't, I wanted to
5:14
Speaker 1: have I wanted to slur my word. I wanted to
5:15
Speaker 1: fit in. And so what you I bring that story
5:19
Speaker 1: up because you talked about because you was hit with it.
5:21
Speaker 1: You was hit you know, talking why I didn't want
5:23
Speaker 1: to act whide you you're calling you snowflick. What kept
5:27
Speaker 1: you focused? What kept you from from veering off like
5:30
Speaker 1: I veered off? I veered off and I said, hey, man,
5:32
Speaker 1: I want to fit in and not beat me. You know.
5:35
Speaker 1: I think it was and I wrote about in the
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Speaker 1: book my mother, My mother really sean, I mean she
5:41
Speaker 1: um she she kept us on the straight and narrow
5:43
Speaker 1: at the time. Uh, we we resented the strictness. I
5:48
Speaker 1: mean my mom she knew all of our friends, and
5:51
Speaker 1: she all of her parents. We weren't allowed to stay
5:55
Speaker 1: out past you know, during the week maybe nine o'clock
5:59
Speaker 1: maybe on the weekends when kids were going to parties
6:02
Speaker 1: and having fun. I was doing oratorical contests and activities.
6:07
Speaker 1: And I went to in high school. I think I
6:10
Speaker 1: probably went to maybe three high school football games on
6:14
Speaker 1: Friday night. I just I didn't. I grew up with
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Speaker 1: a very tight leash, right uh. And and part of
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Speaker 1: it was my mother overcompensating for for my father not
6:22
Speaker 1: being the kind of dad that he should have been.
6:24
Speaker 1: But part of it was mom knew, she knew back then,
6:27
Speaker 1: I think kind of what it took. She was a
6:29
Speaker 1: school teacher then she went into an administration. She knew
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Speaker 1: what it took um to to shape and mold young
6:37
Speaker 1: black boys, especially right, and and that was it. Had
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Speaker 1: it not been for her, had I grown up in
6:42
Speaker 1: another house, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Well,
6:46
Speaker 1: you know, I write you a book. You know the
6:47
Speaker 1: book we're talking for talking to interview Craig Melvin, his
6:49
Speaker 1: book Pops, Learning to Be a Son and the Father.
6:52
Speaker 1: Is it because the fact that your father wasn't there,
6:56
Speaker 1: that she may be overcompensated and wanted to make sure
7:00
Speaker 1: you didn't you had a better life, or you pursued options,
7:03
Speaker 1: even though I knew she went to college. And I
7:05
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Speaker 1: by the United States for Service and the AD Council. Well,
9:04
Speaker 1: talk about that in the middle because as we talked
9:07
Speaker 1: about trying to shape you because of the fact that
9:09
Speaker 1: you've been shaped by a lot of people, especially to
9:12
Speaker 1: the stories. We want to talk about the the president
9:14
Speaker 1: incident when he was out of camp grades had that
9:16
Speaker 1: really kind of like started you in this direction of
9:19
Speaker 1: humanizing all men, especially men who are incoss already. Talk
9:23
Speaker 1: about your mom and her role versus your dad role
9:26
Speaker 1: because you mentioned it just a little bit, but that
9:29
Speaker 1: centers around us getting into the story and your father
9:31
Speaker 1: changing his life at the age of six or seven. Mom. Yeah, mom, Mom,
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Speaker 1: Mom had to play the role of mom and dad
9:38
Speaker 1: for the better part of my challengehood. Um, it was.
9:42
Speaker 1: It was. It was a role that she was Yeah,
9:45
Speaker 1: she was unfortunately well prepared for it because she ended
9:48
Speaker 1: up she had to take care of her three younger siblings.
9:51
Speaker 1: Um when she was in college and her father skipped
9:55
Speaker 1: out of the family, ended up essentially dying on the
9:57
Speaker 1: streets and square. Uh, but no a mom. Because my
10:03
Speaker 1: father was not physically present as often as I would
10:09
Speaker 1: have liked, and my younger brother would have liked my
10:11
Speaker 1: older brother as well. Mom stepped in the trip to
10:13
Speaker 1: fill the gap. She filled. She filled a boy. And
10:16
Speaker 1: not just not just being present in a sense of
10:19
Speaker 1: searn a little league games or soccer games or or concerts.
10:24
Speaker 1: Not just physically present, but but but emotionally president right,
10:28
Speaker 1: a spiritually present. I mean, the relationship that I have
10:32
Speaker 1: with God is because of my mother's relationship with God.
10:37
Speaker 1: So it was it was divine intervention. You know. Had
10:41
Speaker 1: I had any other mother, things would not have gone
10:46
Speaker 1: the way that they did. But you know, it's it's
10:49
Speaker 1: also and I write about in the book, as you know,
10:51
Speaker 1: and I do appreciate the fact that you read the book.
10:53
Speaker 1: You'd be surprised how often to talk to people about
10:55
Speaker 1: books and they hadn't read word one, But I tell
11:00
Speaker 1: you read the whole thing. And I write about in
11:02
Speaker 1: the book. My father I asked him doing the course
11:05
Speaker 1: of my my interviews with him for the book. I said, Pops,
11:08
Speaker 1: what was the most money you ever wasted? H without
11:12
Speaker 1: missing a beat, he said it was about dollars back
11:14
Speaker 1: in nineteen six. Said that was a lot of money
11:17
Speaker 1: back then. When you spend that money on he said,
11:19
Speaker 1: that's how much. That's how much it cost to put
11:21
Speaker 1: my daddy in the ground. And in that moment I realized, um,
11:27
Speaker 1: that while I had been frustrated by the lack of
11:30
Speaker 1: relationship I had with my dad, it was exponentially better
11:33
Speaker 1: than the relationship he had with his own father. Right,
11:36
Speaker 1: he didn't know who his dad was until he was
11:38
Speaker 1: almost a teenager. So it was it was wholly unrealistic
11:44
Speaker 1: of me to expect him to be the kind of
11:47
Speaker 1: dad that I had had come to to to idolize.
11:51
Speaker 1: He couldn't be it because he hadn't seen it. And
11:54
Speaker 1: you can't be something. Scratch that, it's really hard to
11:58
Speaker 1: be something. Yes, if if you if you haven't seen it,
12:01
Speaker 1: if you haven't been exposed to it. So that's when
12:03
Speaker 1: my dad was up against you know, when I when
12:06
Speaker 1: I read the book, you know, um, you know I
12:08
Speaker 1: heard the shotgun house. Okay, I grew up in there.
12:11
Speaker 1: I was born in the shotgun house. Two very shotgun house.
12:13
Speaker 1: A lot of people. If you're listening to the shotgun house,
12:15
Speaker 1: over the front door, shoot the gun out to shotgun out,
12:17
Speaker 1: to go out the front back door. Don't hit anything
12:20
Speaker 1: that's a shotgun house. Okay, you referenced pig feats. Grew
12:24
Speaker 1: up with big feast. My man, heyg I wouldn't touch
12:30
Speaker 1: but big feats or part of our lifestyle. And so
12:33
Speaker 1: that's the Southern IM from Houston, Texas. I'm from the South.
12:36
Speaker 1: It was it was a lifestyle that was normal to me.
12:39
Speaker 1: But it was also a community lifestyle of people taking
12:42
Speaker 1: care of each other, and that was really important. Not
12:44
Speaker 1: only your dad. Even though there were some missteps, there
12:48
Speaker 1: were still people there to take care of him, you know,
12:51
Speaker 1: to make sure he was focused, to shout at him
12:53
Speaker 1: as he became an adult. There were people in the community.
12:56
Speaker 1: That's really important in this book that no matter what,
13:00
Speaker 1: there's some form of family tied to your story, and
13:03
Speaker 1: the people in your life talk about that. You know,
13:07
Speaker 1: it's a It's it's funny because long before people started
13:11
Speaker 1: talking about it taking a village, uh to to to
13:14
Speaker 1: rear a child. I had a village you know, it
13:17
Speaker 1: wasn't called that back back in the eighties in South Carolina,
13:20
Speaker 1: back in the eighties and nineties where I grew up
13:22
Speaker 1: and I had a village, and and yes, there were
13:26
Speaker 1: a number of men who played the role of dad
13:29
Speaker 1: along the way, my uncle James, my uncle Jake, my
13:32
Speaker 1: uncle Frank Um. But there were also a lot of
13:36
Speaker 1: women that that that played the part as well. I
13:39
Speaker 1: was disciplined, and I think that's the politically correct term
13:44
Speaker 1: I was. I was disciplined by more women growing up
13:47
Speaker 1: than men, whether it's my mom or one of my
13:50
Speaker 1: aunts and my grandma. I spent a lot of time
13:53
Speaker 1: with my two grandmothers growing up, and they really shaped
13:58
Speaker 1: me in myriad ways that I didn't fully appreciate until
14:01
Speaker 1: I was older. But and then after that, I had
14:04
Speaker 1: coaches along the way. I always God always blessed me
14:08
Speaker 1: with with with people along the road. Uh that that
14:13
Speaker 1: gave me a little part of something that I was.
14:16
Speaker 1: I was able to take and build on. It's difficult
14:20
Speaker 1: for young black men especially, it's it's difficult to to
14:24
Speaker 1: learn how to carry yourself in this world um with
14:29
Speaker 1: without examples of it. And I had lots of examples
14:35
Speaker 1: thankfully along the way. But the reality is, you know, Sean,
14:38
Speaker 1: a lot of kids don't have that. A lot of
14:40
Speaker 1: kids don't they just you know, through no fault of
14:42
Speaker 1: their own mind, they they don't have a mother or
14:46
Speaker 1: a father, or an uncle or an aunt to take
14:50
Speaker 1: their hands on this journey of life. And so they
14:53
Speaker 1: end up finding role models, uh that they should not
14:58
Speaker 1: be held up, that should not a paddle still, and
15:01
Speaker 1: they begin to emulate them. And we're live here outside
15:05
Speaker 1: the Perez family home, just waiting for the and there
15:09
Speaker 1: they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming
15:12
Speaker 1: out the front door strong with a double arm kid carry.
15:15
Speaker 1: Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up
15:17
Speaker 1: the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers
15:22
Speaker 1: and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed
15:27
Speaker 1: the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now
15:30
Speaker 1: the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten,
15:33
Speaker 1: has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the
15:35
Speaker 1: bag clothes and they're off. But looks like Mom doesn't
15:40
Speaker 1: realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of
15:42
Speaker 1: the car, and there it goes. Oh, that's a shame.
15:46
Speaker 1: That mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff,
15:50
Speaker 1: just nailed the big stuff, like making sure your kids
15:52
Speaker 1: are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.
15:54
Speaker 1: Learn more n h t S a dot gov slash
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Speaker 1: the Right Seat visits n h S A dot of
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Speaker 1: the AD Council. Look for your children's eyes to see
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Speaker 1: They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find a forest
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Speaker 1: near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot
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Speaker 1: org brought to you by the United States Forest Service
16:33
Speaker 1: and the AD Council. What grows in the forest trees?
16:37
Speaker 1: Sure no. What else grows in the forest Our imagination,
16:41
Speaker 1: our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too,
16:44
Speaker 1: because when we disconnect from this and connect with this,
16:51
Speaker 1: we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than
16:54
Speaker 1: you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring.
16:58
Speaker 1: I discover the forest dot org. Brought to you by
17:00
Speaker 1: the United States for Service and the AD Council. You know,
17:05
Speaker 1: the thing I really like about your book is that sometimes, uh,
17:09
Speaker 1: because my father was a truck driver, you know, so
17:12
Speaker 1: you know when he wasn't driving trucks, you know he
17:14
Speaker 1: was he was, he wasn't really connected to me. I
17:18
Speaker 1: can I can tell you he was my father. I
17:20
Speaker 1: can tell you that my mom was there for me.
17:22
Speaker 1: My mom pushed me. My mom always felt that could
17:25
Speaker 1: be somebody special in life. When your father showed up
17:28
Speaker 1: for your ball game, that that memory. You don't know
17:31
Speaker 1: if you got to hit a home runner, got got
17:33
Speaker 1: struck out over time you went up the bat, but
17:35
Speaker 1: you remember that moment. And then when your mom rescued you,
17:38
Speaker 1: when you thought, uh, you had in an entered early fatherhood.
17:43
Speaker 1: You know, those are two moments that really I bring
17:47
Speaker 1: up those two moments prayer because despite of all the
17:50
Speaker 1: things we do in our life, there are always memories
17:53
Speaker 1: that really some haunt people, some inspire people. Your father
17:57
Speaker 1: showing up for your game and your um basically coming
18:01
Speaker 1: to the rescue because she did something that enabled you
18:04
Speaker 1: to relax talk about those two key moments of parenting.
18:08
Speaker 1: Even though your father wasn't there, that was a key
18:11
Speaker 1: parenting moment that he provided for you that stays with
18:14
Speaker 1: you today. It probably cares into your parenty with your
18:16
Speaker 1: with your children today and then your mom being there
18:19
Speaker 1: for you at a moment of doubt, frustration, fear. But
18:23
Speaker 1: both them were there at different times. I mean, you're
18:26
Speaker 1: you're you're talking about Department Book where I almost became
18:31
Speaker 1: a teenage father. I was almost a statistic at the
18:34
Speaker 1: age of fourteen. Uh No, that's I made a bad choice.
18:41
Speaker 1: I made a bad choice. And you know what, I
18:43
Speaker 1: write about it because I wrote about it because I
18:46
Speaker 1: wanted people to understand. Uh, there but for the grace
18:50
Speaker 1: of God go I and and and and I think
18:53
Speaker 1: a lot of folks can relate to this, this idea
18:55
Speaker 1: that you know, there's that night or sometimes that day,
18:59
Speaker 1: but usually it's that night where you went left, but
19:03
Speaker 1: you could have gone right right right, and and and
19:06
Speaker 1: had you made a different decision, it would have altered
19:10
Speaker 1: the course of your life in a dramatic way. Um,
19:14
Speaker 1: that almost happened to me. I got lucky and and
19:17
Speaker 1: and at that point in my life, I was. I
19:20
Speaker 1: didn't have much of relationship with my father. I was.
19:24
Speaker 1: I was afraid of my mother, Uh, definitely afraid, so
19:28
Speaker 1: I couldn't talk to her about it. And it was
19:31
Speaker 1: a situation where, you know, this young lady was convinced
19:34
Speaker 1: she was pregnant, and I like, I had to I
19:37
Speaker 1: had to do something. This was not one of the
19:39
Speaker 1: situations where in action was an option, right and uh.
19:43
Speaker 1: And I write in the book about how I went
19:44
Speaker 1: to my my aunt and it was my aunt that
19:47
Speaker 1: finally convinced me that I had no choice but to
19:49
Speaker 1: talk to my mother. But my mom has always been
19:53
Speaker 1: long before we started calling people fixers, my mom was
19:57
Speaker 1: a fixer like it was. It was that honestly was
20:00
Speaker 1: an extreme example. But there were so many other times
20:03
Speaker 1: in my life where I thought I was out of option.
20:06
Speaker 1: I didn't know what I was gonna do, and I
20:08
Speaker 1: prayed to God and put trust in Betty Joe Melvine
20:11
Speaker 1: and and Betty Joe Melvine always came through and still
20:13
Speaker 1: does now. Mind you, in a different way, my dad,
20:17
Speaker 1: you know route about that that that part in the
20:19
Speaker 1: book with che where he showed up at my little
20:21
Speaker 1: league game, and the memory stayed with me because it
20:25
Speaker 1: was so rare to that point, my dad. Um, and
20:29
Speaker 1: and again now looking back on it, knowing what we
20:32
Speaker 1: know about addiction, about it being a disease and not
20:35
Speaker 1: a weakness, I understand why he wasn't there. I understand
20:39
Speaker 1: why he had walled himself off from our family and
20:43
Speaker 1: society at large. But back then I was a kid,
20:46
Speaker 1: you know, I was a kid in one of my
20:48
Speaker 1: my my dad to to be proud of me and
20:50
Speaker 1: see me, uh and certainly watch watch my little league games.
20:54
Speaker 1: And so when he showed up that evening, I saw
20:56
Speaker 1: him down the third base line there on the on
20:59
Speaker 1: the fence. It's memory that that stayed with me because
21:01
Speaker 1: it was so weird that thing said. Now, um, he's everywhere,
21:05
Speaker 1: like you know, he was up. Two weeks ago, my
21:08
Speaker 1: son had a soccer game. My dad was right there
21:10
Speaker 1: with me on the sideline and thirty seconds in my
21:14
Speaker 1: my boy hadn't scored a goal all season. Thirty seconds
21:17
Speaker 1: in dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot score first goal
21:22
Speaker 1: of the game, and and me and my pops are
21:25
Speaker 1: high five and like he just want a green jacket
21:27
Speaker 1: and augusta you know, Um, it was the book is
21:31
Speaker 1: um an emotional book. I would say emotional because I
21:35
Speaker 1: told people, when I get a book like this outter
21:37
Speaker 1: slow read it because sometimes they hit points where I go, ho, Ho,
21:40
Speaker 1: I'm about to about to go there, I'm not. Let
21:43
Speaker 1: me finish this moment. And because I remember a moment
21:46
Speaker 1: with my dad, uh two when I owned a comedy
21:50
Speaker 1: club and my dad had never ever been to anything
21:54
Speaker 1: I've been, and he just showed up at the comedy
21:56
Speaker 1: club and uh it was sold out. And I looked
21:59
Speaker 1: at the lobby. What you're doing, her dad? He goes,
22:01
Speaker 1: I come to see my son. And he looped around.
22:04
Speaker 1: He looked, wow, this you this you this you? And
22:07
Speaker 1: I went, uh, yes, sir, yes, sir you because I
22:10
Speaker 1: always said A certainly my dad and uh and he said,
22:14
Speaker 1: he said, I'm proud of your son, and and and
22:18
Speaker 1: like I said, this is because that's what the book
22:20
Speaker 1: did to me as a dad. Because when you start
22:23
Speaker 1: talking about incarceration, and you talked about when you're talking
22:27
Speaker 1: you said earlier, right, turn left, turn those turns. I
22:30
Speaker 1: always say that when I was in college, you know
22:33
Speaker 1: you you played a fraternity I played to make a
22:35
Speaker 1: side five and you always do stupid things. I remember
22:37
Speaker 1: the big brothers said, we want some plants. Well, we
22:40
Speaker 1: didn't have no money, and so I remember just this
22:43
Speaker 1: giant open field where they had plants back in the day,
22:46
Speaker 1: and my Lyon brothers we went and stole these plants. Man.
22:50
Speaker 1: I mean, if you look back on the Craig from
22:53
Speaker 1: the freeway, you would have seen those running across this
22:55
Speaker 1: field with these plants. Okay, So anybody could have went,
22:59
Speaker 1: what are those black dude boys doing running with all
23:01
Speaker 1: these giant plants. And I had a little Fiat uh
23:05
Speaker 1: X y nine, which is a two seater, and the
23:07
Speaker 1: truck was in the front, so I had to put
23:10
Speaker 1: the plants in the front and were blacking my win seal.
23:13
Speaker 1: So along the way I could have stopped and stopped
23:16
Speaker 1: by the police and been incarcerated, and my life could
23:19
Speaker 1: have changed. On that right turn left turn that you
23:21
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, you are meeting men who have
23:25
Speaker 1: done something far worse than what I've talked about, but
23:28
Speaker 1: they have made a mistake. And sometimes because they made
23:30
Speaker 1: a mistake, we don't give them a second chance because
23:33
Speaker 1: we feel that they're unworthy of that second chance. And
23:36
Speaker 1: then in your book, you talk about guess what they
23:38
Speaker 1: are fathers too. Let's talk about that journey of you
23:43
Speaker 1: doing a story I think basically changed your life. And
23:46
Speaker 1: it started with Camp Grace. Yeah, it was one of
23:49
Speaker 1: the most impactful stories I've ever done. Uh, there's a
23:52
Speaker 1: I don't even remember how we found out about this camp,
23:55
Speaker 1: but um I was probably reading some articles and an
23:58
Speaker 1: obscure publication about the UM summer camp at a maximum
24:03
Speaker 1: security prison in California, Salina's state Valley Briston was the
24:09
Speaker 1: name of the facility, and for one week every summer
24:15
Speaker 1: UM they bring in about a dozen or so kids
24:19
Speaker 1: to basically have a camp experience with their dads. I mean,
24:23
Speaker 1: you know, arts and crafts, and they play games, and
24:26
Speaker 1: they sing songs and they do all the stuff that
24:29
Speaker 1: do at a camp. And these kids are between the
24:32
Speaker 1: ages of you know, seven or eight and in fifteen
24:35
Speaker 1: or sixteen, and the the guys who are part of
24:39
Speaker 1: the program have to UM exhibit good behavior for a
24:43
Speaker 1: full year. The camp is a it's a privilege. And
24:48
Speaker 1: UM I went out and spend some time talking to
24:51
Speaker 1: these guys and it ended up being just an emotional
24:55
Speaker 1: day because these these are being first of all, most
24:57
Speaker 1: of them are not going to be getting out of prison.
25:00
Speaker 1: I mean they've some of them have been convicted of
25:03
Speaker 1: doing some pretty heinous things. Um. But the two women
25:08
Speaker 1: that started the camp, both of their husbands were incarcerated
25:12
Speaker 1: and consequently weren't really a part of the child's lives.
25:19
Speaker 1: They would get the occasional visit, you know, on a weekend,
25:21
Speaker 1: and you've got the glass, and but they weren't able
25:24
Speaker 1: to really be a part of the child's lives. So
25:26
Speaker 1: they came up inside therefore camp. And I talked to
25:28
Speaker 1: one of the guys out there, and I asked him
25:30
Speaker 1: the question I knew a lot of people are going
25:32
Speaker 1: to be asking when they watched them or read the story.
25:34
Speaker 1: How can someone um accused of some of the things
25:40
Speaker 1: these guys were accused of. How in what universe do
25:44
Speaker 1: they deserve the right to spend time with with it
25:49
Speaker 1: with the child and without missing a beat? He said
25:52
Speaker 1: to me, tears in his eyes. Um, they might be right.
25:57
Speaker 1: I may not deserve it, but you know what credit
26:00
Speaker 1: my kids do. Like my kids deserved to know their father.
26:04
Speaker 1: They didn't do anything wrong, they didn't make any bad choices. Uh.
26:09
Speaker 1: And his larger point, and I think this was just
26:11
Speaker 1: as valid. If we're serious about stopping the prison pipeline
26:16
Speaker 1: that we always talked about, uh, then we need to
26:18
Speaker 1: make sure the kids of of incarcerated individuals have relationships
26:23
Speaker 1: with them. He spent a fair amount of his time
26:25
Speaker 1: talking to his daughter about choices, making good choices, not
26:30
Speaker 1: ending up where he ended up. It's a fantastic program,
26:33
Speaker 1: and it moved me. It also moved me, Sean because
26:37
Speaker 1: my grandmother, and it's the first line in the book.
26:39
Speaker 1: Not to give way too much, but you know my
26:41
Speaker 1: my grandmother. Uh Now, when I knew her, she was here,
26:46
Speaker 1: she was going to church, at church or coming home
26:49
Speaker 1: from church. Like she she only loved the Lord, but
26:52
Speaker 1: apparently long before I came along. But just just just
26:56
Speaker 1: say she's a bootleg. I want to give it. No
26:58
Speaker 1: more than that. Just say she's a bootleg. I want
27:00
Speaker 1: to give her the earther part. Okay, she a bootlegg.
27:02
Speaker 1: She was a bootlegger. She was a bootlegger, and and
27:06
Speaker 1: and and got a second chance. Did and had she
27:10
Speaker 1: not gotten a second chance, who's to say whether I
27:14
Speaker 1: would be here right now? You know. But here's the
27:16
Speaker 1: thing I want to point out about that now his
27:18
Speaker 1: grandmother was in the same jail that Martha Stewart was in,
27:23
Speaker 1: so she got how many chances as she's got, okay,
27:27
Speaker 1: but in the same facility now. And so so when
27:30
Speaker 1: I when I when I read the book, and and
27:32
Speaker 1: and and and it's, like I said, an emotional journey
27:34
Speaker 1: because it's your story, but it's a relatable story because
27:37
Speaker 1: I remember when my younger brother was incarcerated in California,
27:41
Speaker 1: and uh Glass talking and uh and I was in
27:44
Speaker 1: tears and and and he told me he couldn't cry.
27:48
Speaker 1: He's I wished, I I can't cry. I keep they
27:50
Speaker 1: can't he said, I can't. And my nicknames Ricky, Rickie.
27:53
Speaker 1: I can't cry because they see me crying out here.
27:55
Speaker 1: I pay a price when I go back inside. And
27:59
Speaker 1: in that book, you know, you know when you interview
28:02
Speaker 1: and he said, look, he said, thank god, I have
28:04
Speaker 1: a sale by myself because now I can't cry. And
28:08
Speaker 1: so I love the fact that you were humanizing people
28:11
Speaker 1: because we we see these we see this, we see
28:14
Speaker 1: the violent size, and nobody's trying to downplay that. But
28:17
Speaker 1: we have made mistakes. There are people on the other
28:20
Speaker 1: side of this to have to deal with the emotionalies
28:22
Speaker 1: are kids, And like one of them said, look um,
28:26
Speaker 1: it's all right early on when you're playing cards and
28:28
Speaker 1: you're playing catch, but when it become teens, the conversation
28:32
Speaker 1: becomes different. And that's what fatherhood is all about, which
28:35
Speaker 1: leads to your whole life or being a father, being
28:38
Speaker 1: connected to your dad, and now being the present day father.
28:41
Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, correct. You know what I think
28:45
Speaker 1: that I think that you can be shaped by negative examples, uh,
28:52
Speaker 1: just as much as you can be shaped by positive examples.
28:54
Speaker 1: In fact, I think in some instances, maybe even more so. So.
28:58
Speaker 1: You know, growing up, I did know the kind of
29:01
Speaker 1: man that I wanted to be. I didn't certainly know
29:05
Speaker 1: the kind of father that I wanted to be. But
29:06
Speaker 1: up until a few years ago, I knew I didn't
29:09
Speaker 1: want to be anything of anything like my dad. Yes, um,
29:12
Speaker 1: and and and and that was what what motivated me
29:15
Speaker 1: personally and professionally, probably to a certain extent now that
29:18
Speaker 1: I'm talking about it, But no, it's it's it's funny
29:22
Speaker 1: because I have to remind my kids sometimes and I
29:25
Speaker 1: have a job, and and and consequently I I cannot
29:30
Speaker 1: be at their back and call uh day and night,
29:34
Speaker 1: because you know, when my dad was there when we
29:37
Speaker 1: were younger, it was it was big, like it was
29:39
Speaker 1: a wedding or funeral or graduation or that that Little
29:43
Speaker 1: League game that I write about that I remember because
29:46
Speaker 1: it was so weird. Dad didn't show up with stuff,
29:48
Speaker 1: in part because he worked third shift at the post office,
29:51
Speaker 1: but in larger part because because of the addiction issues
29:54
Speaker 1: that he had um So as a result, I'm going
29:58
Speaker 1: to the other end of the spectru So if you know,
30:01
Speaker 1: I'm there for soccer games and my daughter had a
30:03
Speaker 1: gymnastics recital last Sunday morning, and you know, I'm physically
30:08
Speaker 1: present as often as and as much as I can
30:11
Speaker 1: do you know, pick I do school pick up, and
30:14
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do it all because you know, my
30:17
Speaker 1: dad didn't do any other No. No, The problem that
30:20
Speaker 1: that that you create when you do that, and it
30:23
Speaker 1: took me a while to pigure this out. I've created expectations.
30:26
Speaker 1: So if if I'm not there to go that he
30:29
Speaker 1: has got to travel for work, Well, Daddy, why can't
30:32
Speaker 1: you Can you take a later flight and they can
30:35
Speaker 1: go tomorrow. And I've had to say a few times,
30:38
Speaker 1: you know that it's the job that pays for all
30:42
Speaker 1: of this. You don't get to go to dance or
30:46
Speaker 1: you don't get to go to soccer if that is
30:49
Speaker 1: not hopping on playing. So that that's the that's the
30:53
Speaker 1: that's the the unfortunate part. But they're you know, they're
30:55
Speaker 1: starting to understand. But it's funny as you become a parent,
30:58
Speaker 1: how you a't some wanted to come. You become the
31:02
Speaker 1: kind of for me at least, the kind of father
31:04
Speaker 1: that I used to mock, yes, hate it with. My
31:07
Speaker 1: dad would talk about, you know how much something costs.
31:10
Speaker 1: You don't have money for us, And when we were younger,
31:15
Speaker 1: we didn't like he wasn't lying, like we knew we
31:17
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of money when we had enough.
31:19
Speaker 1: With my kids, you know, I've said a few times
31:22
Speaker 1: and we can't afford this, and myself, I'm missing Abeto
31:25
Speaker 1: say yes we can, you can, and I'm like, and
31:30
Speaker 1: then you then you find yourself trying to come up
31:32
Speaker 1: with a new excuse like, uh, well maybe we can't
31:36
Speaker 1: afford it, but that we don't need it. You don't
31:38
Speaker 1: need that right right right? You know it's hard and
31:44
Speaker 1: I thought we're about to wrap up. I want to
31:45
Speaker 1: bring up a very um a fun moment as a parent,
31:49
Speaker 1: and I I want to share with you because you
31:51
Speaker 1: wrote about it when your son climbed into bed and
31:54
Speaker 1: you know, and then your kids when they sleep. If
31:56
Speaker 1: you if you don't have kids children, if you got
31:58
Speaker 1: a very young child, when they're climbing the bed, they
32:01
Speaker 1: forget you in bed. They kids got the worst sleepers
32:05
Speaker 1: in the world, especially when they get that six to
32:07
Speaker 1: ten years of age. We were sleeper. And so when
32:11
Speaker 1: you said that in the book, you said, you you
32:14
Speaker 1: may miss that. I remember I talked to my daughter
32:17
Speaker 1: when she was like seventeen. I said, hey, what you what?
32:19
Speaker 1: You're hopping bed and watch the TV? Ship what you're
32:21
Speaker 1: talking about? I said, you know, can we not watching TV?
32:25
Speaker 1: Can we not watch TV? Together? Man? We used to go,
32:27
Speaker 1: I don't do that no more, Dad, No, no, we're
32:30
Speaker 1: not doing that. So I would tell you, Craig, that
32:33
Speaker 1: moment brought brought laughter to me. It brought back memories.
32:37
Speaker 1: As your book, you know, the amazingly good book Pops
32:39
Speaker 1: Learning to Be a Son and the Father. Man. Uh,
32:42
Speaker 1: it's a great read. And like I said, it slowed
32:44
Speaker 1: me when I said the words slowed me because I
32:46
Speaker 1: was becoming emotional because, like I said, my father was
32:49
Speaker 1: a beer drinker. My father worked hard as a truck driver.
32:53
Speaker 1: My father, like I said, was he in my life?
32:56
Speaker 1: I don't know, But did he shape me to be
32:58
Speaker 1: the man I am today? Yes he did, as he
33:00
Speaker 1: had a role in it, and that that role has
33:02
Speaker 1: made me to be the man I am. I'd like
33:04
Speaker 1: to believe I'm a good parent to my daughter, a
33:06
Speaker 1: good husband to my wife. And uh, those are the
33:09
Speaker 1: things that that the stories that you tell out of
33:11
Speaker 1: this book, from the incarcerated, to individuals who raised you
33:15
Speaker 1: as a family, the community, and whether teachers who shaped
33:19
Speaker 1: you as third grade teachers who shaped you as as
33:22
Speaker 1: you go through life and you went to school and
33:24
Speaker 1: you didn't wanna, didn't want to shame your ancle when
33:27
Speaker 1: you didn't pledge calf outside. But it was all good. Man.
33:32
Speaker 1: I love your book, Craig. I want to appreciate you
33:33
Speaker 1: for putting it out there. Man, thank you, Thank you
33:36
Speaker 1: for your time. I've enjoyed this conversation. You're very good
33:39
Speaker 1: at what you do. Thank you for having Okay, we
33:41
Speaker 1: talked soon, Man, I'm gonna put this on. I got look,
33:43
Speaker 1: I got a nice little social media. I'm gonna put
33:45
Speaker 1: that out there and my my news letter, We're gonna
33:47
Speaker 1: get that out there for you, Okay, Craig, All right,
33:51
Speaker 1: bye bye. If you want to see or hear anybody
33:53
Speaker 1: interviews and money Making Conversation, please go to Money Making
33:56
Speaker 1: Conversation dot com. I'm with Sean McDonald. I am your host.
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