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The Volatile Heart of Wait list: A Love-ish Story · Cinema Yūgen

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G'day. That's right. It's that time again. Time for... CINEMA! YOOGEEEAAAAAAA!
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Eugen! Welcome back, Eugenites! There are lines you don't cross until the moment you do.
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On this episode, Debra Markowitz joins us to dive into Waitlist,
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a love-ish story, a daring, provocative, emotionally charged indie that turns
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a what-if into a full-blown collision with reality.
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It starts innocently, a connection, a glance, a moment, and then everything changes.
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Carter and Lisa don't just
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fall for each other They crash hard Into desire
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Into judgement Into consequences that neither of
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them can outrun Because this isn't some glossy
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fantasy This is the aftermath The tension The cost of wanting something the
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world says you should With razor sharp dialogue and an undercurrent of aching
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truth Markowitz crafts a story that burns slow Then hits like a punch to the
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chest It's leaving a volatile space between lust and love,
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freedom and fallout. It's bold.
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Uncomfortable it's real and once you're
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in there's no clean way out deborah markowitz drops into chat about waitlist
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a love-ish story not your typical romance not your typical conversation it's
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a great great indie drama i really really enjoyed this movie please welcome
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my guest the great deborah.
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Markowitz!
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Welcome to Cinema Yugen, Debra.
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Thank you, Kent. Thank you for having me. I love to talk about this movie and
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the process, and when the work is done, the next work begins. Yeah, yeah.
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Unfortunately, you don't seem to get too long to enjoy these things before you're
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thinking about the next one, and the next one after that. There's more features
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coming out by end of the year.
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They just all have to be applied at one point.
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Deborah, we're going to have to tie your arms and legs and whatever together
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to stop you making movies, it sounds like.
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I mean, you're unstoppable.
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But let's talk about Waitlist, which I maintain along with quite a lot of indie
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dramas that I've seen at the start this year.
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Absolutely incredible stuff. And like I've said in other reviews,
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this is where all the good dramas have gone.
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They went indie, as it turns out, because I feel like I used to see a lot of
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these in other places, in the mainstream even.
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But they went away from that in favor of gentlemen with capes.
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Yeah. Or dramas with people with capes.
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Yeah. Or pseudo-dramas with people with capes. Yeah.
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Well, this is, I mean, I don't know. Is this more comedy than a drama?
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Because it really has both.
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It starts out really light, you know, which is what I intended.
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It was just a very light thing because we're living in some dark times here in the United States.
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I wanted something to make people laugh. And it started as a one-day film.
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And we had so much fun. I wanted to see what happened with the characters.
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So they basically made me their story, you know, over the next week.
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And I wrote the feature. And then it kind of encompasses everything,
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you know, from the beginning to what happens when you deal with the situation.
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Yes. The situation of, of two people who want nothing but to be together,
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but seem to be torn apart by everyone, but themselves.
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Yes. Which is an interesting, not just an interesting story,
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but an interesting place in your life to be in when you're not just involved
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with a person, but maybe involved in something, something that takes you away from everyone else.
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And everyone's saying, well, you shouldn't be spending so much time,
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you know, although that must be awkward for like your mom to walk in and find
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you thus engaged with a woman that she used to carpool with. Yes, exactly.
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That's a little uncomfortable and very shocking. Yeah, yeah.
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That's one of my favorite exchanges in the movie when his parents like come in.
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Tara Westwood was wonderful with the portrayal of the, the shocked mother. Yeah.
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She was awesome. I like how he lays on her. The, uh, the whole thing about,
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well, your dad, between you and dad, there's like 10 years.
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Yes. So if it was the same scenario, it wouldn't be out of place.
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But she's like, no, no, it's different. It's different.
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Right, right. Plus she said, you know, your father wasn't, you know,
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my friend's father, you know. Right, yeah.
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And I didn't hang out at his place after school where he, you know. Exactly. Yeah.
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Where he was, you know. That was Tara's idea.
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When we did the shoot at the parents' home, it was her idea.
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She said if this was my kid i would have wanted to
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know how long this was happening was this happening when
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he was a kid and i said you know that's a
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really valid thing that a parent would ask so we added that
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yeah no no it is and i'm glad it
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sort of comes up because she sort of says was she like grooming you
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you know right exactly or was she
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touching you you know inappropriately back then but it's
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interesting in your film because most of the really the
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the instigation comes from his side not her so i
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mean she gives into it initially but he's
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he's really the the antagonist in
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in the love story as it were because he's hell-bent because
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he's he's had a thing for mrs robbins for a while now and uh yeah i mean she
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was like this very beautiful fairy yeah mr rob mrs robinson are you trying to
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seduce me um yeah and then he became a an adolescent and And then it was like,
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oh, wow, this is the hot mom.
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And then he became an adult and he realized he really has feelings for her. Yeah.
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And he's like, you're like the right age. You're just like the right age. Exactly. Exactly.
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But no, I guess, I mean, even though there is a lot of, as you say, lighthearted people,
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elements in this the i think
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the the great brilliance of it and the complexity comes
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from the fact that the deeper they get involved and the
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more people offer their varied
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opinions on on whether or not
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it is appropriate or how it's socially acceptable for
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them to be together you know i mean hence the reason
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i compared your film to a lot of mike nichols works because
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his things all seem to
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focus on the similar element you know like i was watching the bird cage again
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last night yes very funny hilarious movie but at the center of that it's about
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people trying to conform to social norms to be socially acceptable to fit into
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boxes you know and it's sort of all encompassed in Robin Williams' speech.
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He says, well, you know, I'm a middle-aged, right? It took me a long time to get here.
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But, you know, I don't care what the senator thinks, right? You know, I am who I am, you know?
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And that kind of follows, that kind of undercurrent follows into waitlist a
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little bit where one of them is concerned about all of the, you know, because,
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I mean, she obviously realizes it's okay now, but when I get older,
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it's going to be more noticeable and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Because she's worried about the surface she's worried about it on the surface level,
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whereas he's worried about it yeah he's worried
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about it on on on the heart level you know
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which is which is interesting yeah
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when she says to him too it's out of really concern
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for him too because yeah okay her son's not
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happy her friends think it's a joke and it's just a sex
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thing and she realizes if she stays with him
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what is having a family because he's
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been with her she's already has grown children and because
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he really does love her and she knows that she just strips away any possibility
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of him having a family you know or him having that kind of life and so she's
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got that guilt in her mind and so it's not because i think it's less because
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of what people think of course though she's embarrassed by the fact that you
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know the the other neighborhood moms know,
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but she got a wound in his life.
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And, and that's really heavy on her. And certainly she's pushed that way when,
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when they have that scene where they go to the, the dinner with her friends
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and they're all like, Oh geez, I got to get myself young.
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Exactly. A young studly. Yeah.
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To carry around a bit of arm jewellery or, you know, almost like he's an accessory
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sort of thing, you know, which is interesting.
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I mean, which is an interesting plan because usually it's the female character
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and they're rather trophy wife instead of the trophy boyfriend or trophy husband sort of scenario.
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So that's what, I mean, that's another little thing that makes it sort of more
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interesting because it's that scenario from a different perspective, if that makes sense.
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Yeah, Beck said that too. Beck Fordyce, who plays Lisa Chase,
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she said if it was male, nobody even would have thought about it.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, if he was a guy, yeah, if he was a guy there with other guys
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and had a young, you know, half his age girlfriend, they wouldn't,
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you know, they'd be applauding him, they'd be saying, oh, well done.
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Exactly. Yeah, for snagging a young, you know, a younger girl or something.
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To that effect but I mean it's you know I mean.
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The real beauty of movies like
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this is something that has been lost because they're
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just about ordinary people you know and I know it sounds boring and I certainly
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have cinephile friends that may classify me as thus but it's to me it's more
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of a challenge to make a really good either comedy,
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or drama or both or a blend of the two with just ordinary people who lead ordinary
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lives. They don't do anything extraordinary.
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And it seems like we lost a lot of really good movies that used to deal with
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characters that were like that. Like I was watching as good as it gets the other day.
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I mean, how long has it been since you've seen a movie as good as this? Yeah.
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I mean, I watch everything, you know, I, I watch everything.
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I liked a lot of different genres.
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I even like superhero movies. I mean, I like everything. Yeah, they have their place.
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But to me, you write what you know, or you write the things you find interesting.
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At times, I'm inspired by the actors I want to work with.
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And I'll think, well, what would I write for them? Who else would I want to
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work with? What would the relationship be between the two?
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And my mind just makes up whatever the rest of the tale is.
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But literally, we shot on a Friday, and I just could not get the characters
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off my mind. I'd wake up in the middle of the night and go, well,
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what would happen now? And then I'd start writing it.
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And a few days later, I said to my husband, who's also my business partner,
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John Marine, I said, you know, I think I wrote a script in a week.
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He goes, Debbie, you wrote it in four days. And I couldn't stop writing.
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You know, I want to know what he's saying to her, what would the parents think.
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And then I started thinking about who the cast of characters around them would
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be, and then started developing their characters. and, you know,
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I just fell in love with them, you know, with the whole cast and the whole dynamics of it, you know.
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No, no, and it's very evident, too. It comes across in the writing and in the
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filmmaking that these are characters that you...
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You enjoy and that you've put a lot of thought into their journey it's not like a service level,
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genre piece which i mean yes a lot
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of the beats are there the reversals and you
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think they're not going to end up together they really are sort of thing but
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it's the what makes it different is the journey there is not conventional you
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know and i don't just mean that in the sense that that that the roles are essentially
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swapped that's not a young girl with an older man.
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Which which yes does add
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to does add to that mixture a
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little bit because it's it's a different point of
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view which people aren't accustomed to
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seeing you know films like or especially
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these days films like there used to be a lot of films like that
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i mean i think i quoted in the review nodding hill i
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mean i know that's a a feel-good sort of
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romantic comedy but again it's about a relationship that couldn't
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really possibly work and
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there's a lot of people weighing in on whether
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or not hugh grant and julia roberts are
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an effective couple coming from such different
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i mean in their case they come from such different worlds one's a movie star
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and one's runs a little bookshop regardless of that extreme scenario your film
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is equally as powerful even though both of the characters don't have these i
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mean yes the the lead actress is a screenwriter she has,
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a slightly different job to you know she's not a waitress she's not a teacher she's not a.
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You know something a bit more a real estate agent you know i mean she's not
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something you know run run run the mill but i mean that that that sort of thing
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is is is refreshing because,
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as much as people want to say like they do they don't go to the movies to see
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themselves they do in a lot of ways because you if you don't see something of
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yourself you can't really,
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empathize and make the journey and and and adequately invest
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in the movie and get and get
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something out of it because if it's just like a remake of something
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yes it's going to look good it's going to sound good it's going to have these
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two actors big faces that you see on the poster that everyone likes but that's
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what it's going to be there's going to be nothing like in like with your film
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that i'm going to come away with and have conversations with people later on to say oh,
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did you see the new Miami Vice part 10? Wasn't that great?
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I had popcorn.
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If I write something and I feel it, then I know the audience is going to feel it.
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A lot of people hired me to direct and sometimes write for them.
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I'll always say, let me look at it because if I don't feel it,
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I know I can't do a good job.
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I have a way of bringing that out in a way that touches people.
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There may be different things in it that touch different people because they
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come from different experiences.
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But the heart is there you know
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and there may be people who are better technical writers and
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I certainly know a lot of them they know this is exactly when
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you hit the beat this is exactly when you do that and I don't write like
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that I I know it's gonna sound corny but I
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really write from my heart and and even though
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I may not ever have that degree of expertise I
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know how to get the feelings in there you know and then the actors
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of course it's them really really relating to the characters and
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bringing it out that that touches people yes
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my own special no no
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no no you're dead right as someone who writes screenplays as
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well i mean yes you're constantly hounded at
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the structure structure structure and there's a million screenwriting books
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that preach structure but then again there's all those screenwriting books that
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weren't written by people who ever wrote screenplays so uh yeah i i am i have
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always been a huge fan of the writing of john millius and john millius was famous
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for saying that i don't use three act structures i just write the story.
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You know and i've i've i've found that one of the best screenwriting lessons
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like i know that there's moments that have to happen,
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they said screenwriting is eternally set up and pay off right you set something off you pay it off.
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But the fact that you don't really
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like the story if the moments if like
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you said if you feel it the moments will organically fall where
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they're meant to fall because if you're in the right head space and
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have such a an affinity and affection for what
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you're writing and you kind of fall into those anyway
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without having to worry about having cards eternally by
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your side saying well i've got this scene and that scene and where
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should i you know i mean that's fine there's nothing
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wrong with that process because if you get stuck you can you can
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you can ponder it but if you feel it
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in the sense of what we're talking about something that
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is just wow i've got to get this this story is speaking to me it's it's it's
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percolating it's on the ball i've got to get it out of my head there's a difference
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to something like that as opposed to the way it would come out if you had sat
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and structured it no like if you had to sat down with you you know the token board with cards,
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and go this is where they meet this is where they fall in love this is where
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the this is where the complication happens here's the turn here's the twist
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here's the reversal yeah yeah you know at the end of the day,
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a good story is a good story, you know.
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Structurally, structurally it might not all be there, but I mean,
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if it gets you, it gets you.
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It doesn't matter if it's structurally perfect or not. If it passes the squint
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test and still makes you laugh or cry, I think it's done its job.
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I mean, I think when something's missing, it's not because the book said on
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this page, it needs to happen.
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It's because to me, something doesn't feel right.
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So I need something. What is it I need? And I'll go to sleep and I'll wake up
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at three in the morning and go, that's what it needs.
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And I'll run into my office and write.
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And the very ending, and I'm not going to give away the spoiler,
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but the thing that happened at the very, very end, I just wasn't happy with it.
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I'm telling john you know my husband's like something's i
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don't know something that needs something and he recommended the
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very very last thing that happens which i'm not going to say but
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i'm like that's it that is it you
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know and that's that little thing in the last five seconds
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to me seals it because it just you know gives you
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an idea of things ending things beginning things whatever
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you know whatever you think is going to happen at that point but
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uh it can just feel when something's not right and then you keep going with
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it until it feels right or or or not and then you don't finish it you know that's
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that's always an option but of course in of course in indie cinema you really
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have to sort of nail a lot of this stuff in the writing in the pre-production because due to the,
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the nature of the budgets and
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some of these things, you don't have room to sort of play around with it.
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Yeah. I'll ask Stanley Kubrick until you, until you get it, what you want to,
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until the magic happens.
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The magic could happen almost immediately if they have it. At least,
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but you don't need to do a hundred. No, no, no, no.
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And especially when you have, when you have such a good cast as you had,
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you know, That's someone who not only fits the role but gets the role is effective.
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There's no one in your film that didn't do that, especially I was glad to see
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a friend of mine, Lucas Hassel, in your movie.
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He's a wonderful actor, isn't he? Lucas, yeah, good bloke too.
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He's been stuck sort of playing these kind of slyly malevolent characters of late.
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Did you see his House of Abraham where he plays the... Yes. Yeah. That's a great movie.
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Speaking about twist at the end, too, I love the twist at the end,
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too. Yes, absolutely. Of that one. Yeah.
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Especially when a certain relationship is revealed. It's incredible. Yes.
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He's actually the lead in my next movie. Oh, okay. Wow.
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Oh, my God. In Couple of Guys. He's so amazing in that.
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Right. So is this another comedy drama slash? It is. It is. It's called Couple of Guys.
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The thing is we started this literally about nine
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years ago wow it was supposed to
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be we were preparing for three seasons we then
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brought it down to a 10 episode limited series and
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we got four of them totally completed and i finally said i can't keep raising
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money for this and i spoke to a couple of people who were fairly high up in
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the industry and they said nobody's buying series anymore so i sat down with
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my i mean john shoots most of our films but the director of photography who we started with,
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I sat down with him and I said, he edited it also.
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I said, I'm going to edit what we already did. I'm going to write the second half of this.
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I used Lucas as one of my script consultants.
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I said, and we're going to finish this as a feature because if we don't finish
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this as a feature this year, everybody's going to age out.
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We're not going to be able to do it. So just whatever.
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Raid the IRA, you know, and get the money to do this because we need to do it.
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And in six days, we have one more day coming.
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We'll have wrapped on it. And then we'll begin the editor. But we had a twist,
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you know, a lot of things, a lot of characters, just basically people moved
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or we just changed the storyline.
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But Lucas is wonderful. And he plays this rock star who was kind of a wild and
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crazy guy back in the day.
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And he falls in love with this accountant who hasn't come out until he's almost 50.
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He's gotten married and had kids, and really, he's just not happy.
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And he doesn't even want to acknowledge to himself that he's gay,
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but he kind of doesn't have a choice.
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So he divorces his wife, and of course, the first person he meets is gorgeous
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Lucas Hassel, who is interested in him.
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And it's just about their relationship and having to come out to the kids and
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how it affects the family.
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And it's just a really fun piece. And yes, there's absolutely some very dramatic
23:16
stuff in it, because Because he still, even though Richard, played by Sarandino
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from Billions, even though he comes out, he hasn't told anybody.
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So Lucas' character is sort of like, I'm not going to be with anybody who is
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embarrassed by who they are.
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Right, okay. And so there's a lot of really, really good stuff in this. That's a bit like Dave.
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Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's, you know, we have to see where that goes.
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Oh, no, not Dave. What other Kevin Cloninath? In and Out. In and Out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Sorry. I was thinking Kevin Kline, and I was like, Kevin Kline, Kevin Kline.
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I actually have a credit in In and Out, because when I was film commissioner,
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I helped with the locations for it, so a long time ago, but...
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But yeah, so I'm pretty excited about that. That's also probably messier than
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this almost, just because of all the people they have to let know.
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And also, so Lucas Hessel and Sal Renino, and also Abigail Hawke plays Lucas's half-sister.
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Oh, okay. A famous actor who kind of went around the world getting people pregnant
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and leaving them. So she's the half-sibling, you know.
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And Deborah Twiss, Kit Gass, is Sal's ex-wife.
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And Kieran Sheehan, who was one of Broadway's Phantom of the Upper,
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he plays Lucas's family. the lead singer from his band.
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Yeah, there's all kinds of cool stuff. I'm a huge Phantom of the Opera fan.
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I've been... Oh, Karen is amazing. He's published with the Four Phantoms and
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whatever, but he's a friend that I'm in, you know, so that's pretty cool.
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That sounds, wow, that sounds incredible.
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So this was a series you were saying? This was a series that you...
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A series that just turned into a feature.
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Right, okay. So is that more editorially an effort, or is it more an effort trying to tie it all,
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A big effort trying to tie it all up because there's some really good stuff we have to get rid of.
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And I'll put it in, probably like put it on my YouTube channel at some point
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after the movie's done so people could see the stuff we had to cut out. I can't do it. So good.
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But it was a big challenge. It took me a long time to come to the point where
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I said, you know what, it just has to be a feature.
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You know, it just has to be. And it breaks my heart of the money we threw,
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you know, having thrown out from things we filmed we can't use.
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And then it took me a while to come up with a couple of really dramatic things
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that wanted to happen, which I finally did.
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And it took me a long time. And again, Lucas is one of my cultural advisors.
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And I sent him the script and we talked about, it's funny because he said,
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you know, when you do this in a gay man's life, this means this.
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I'm like, oh, okay, no, no.
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That's not what I meant. I think I said, no, you didn't mean that.
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So let's change that. So he's been really helpful with, you know,
26:07
making sure that everything is on point and, you know, makes sense.
26:12
And, yeah, he loves it. He just loves it.
26:15
I'll be interested to see him doing something less menemaline,
26:18
you know, something a bit more chuffle.
26:20
Yeah. Stuff I've seen him and he's been kind of either leery or creepy. Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah.
26:26
He's awesome. So I'm interested to see him do something chapel worthy or gag, gag related,
26:35
not gag as in gag reflex. Gag is in.
26:40
But, uh, yeah, no, fantastic, like wonderful actor.
26:44
I do look forward to that one. That sounds interesting. I like,
26:48
uh, it's, it's got bird, it's got sort of birdcage vibes to it again, a little bit.
26:52
Yeah. And I had, I mean, there's a couple of cameos in it that are real fun
26:55
too. and I'm pretty sure we can keep them both. I think we have to keep them.
26:58
And one is Kevin Brown from, he plays .com on 30 Rock.
27:02
He is Sal Rondino's best friend. So he has a couple of scenes.
27:07
Unfortunately, it'd be more like a cameo now that we've cut it down.
27:10
And then Brian O'Hallor from Clerks plays the pastor that narrates him.
27:14
So he was supposed to have more. We had to really cut that down,
27:18
but he's hilarious in this.
27:19
You know, so we have a lot of those little cameos in there that haven't become cameos.
27:23
But uh you know but they they enrich it
27:26
they're they're all wonderful um it's fantastic sounds
27:30
like it sounds like debra you've gone from from one film
27:33
i really enjoy to another film that i really can't wait
27:36
to see so i'm i'm very excited i look forward to
27:40
to when so what's this one called does it have a title it's
27:43
called couple of guys couple of guys you've just
27:46
like i said you've just come off an incredible movie and it sounds
27:49
like you've made a couple more that i'm really really excited
27:52
to see ladies and gentlemen get down to the
27:55
links in the description waitlist the love ish story is
27:58
out and about right now you don't have to wait and
28:01
a couple of guys coming hot on its heels
28:04
deborah markowitz it has been
28:07
an extraordinary pleasure wherever all the good dramas gone they've gone indie
28:11
and this lady is certainly behind a lot of the good stuff that's happening deborah
28:17
thank you for being on the show and thank you for making such wonderful movies
28:22
and more power to you i hope that they all come out i certainly can't wait to see more.
28:26
Thank you. And thank you so much because really without spreading the word,
28:30
nobody sees these. So this is so important. I know. Yeah.
28:32
That's, I mean, that's the, that's the big unfortunate thing.
28:34
I watch so many of these great indie films and, and, and tell friends and everything.
28:40
And I try to post about them as much as I can, but it's sad because you, you meet people.
28:45
I meet other film critics, mainly who cover the multiplexes,
28:51
you know, they like the prestige.
28:52
They like the interviews, the big movie stars, the swag bags.
28:57
But all the good stuff that I'm seeing lately is all indie.
29:00
And so, yeah, I, I try as hard as I might to, uh, to spread the good word because,
29:06
uh, these are great pictures and they deserve to be seen.
29:10
And, uh, you know, I know that if I had a big swag of money,
29:14
I'd certainly open a picture theater was devoted solely to these movies.
29:18
And, um, because they are, they are worthy.
29:22
They are good stories. they are affecting and they are conversation worthy afterwards.
29:29
Unlike some of the pictures I've seen at the movies recently where you,
29:33
you know, you drink the Coca-Cola and eat the popcorn and then it's all over. Red Rover.
29:40
Messages all the time about waiting lists, which I love, you know,
29:43
people say what happens here or what happened this or what did this?
29:46
I love that. Cause that means I not only watched it, they've been thinking about
29:50
it. That's it. That's it.
29:52
That's it. That's the best kind of movie is one that lingers with you later and,
30:00
tempted to go and watch it again just like i'm tempted to
30:03
go and watch waitlist again and
30:06
check out all the films from deborah markowitz down
30:09
in the links in the description deborah i
30:12
can't wait to see your next movie i wish you all the
30:15
best thank you for being my guest on cinema you can
30:18
thank you so much take care yes deborah markowitz waitlist
30:22
she's got heaps of other great films coming get
30:25
down to the links in the description check out my review at filmthreat.com for
30:30
wait list and check it out where and when you can Debra Markowitz she's doing
30:34
incredible incredible work get down to the links in the description and as always
30:41
my little Yugenites thank you for listening to us on Spotify,
30:45
iHeartRadio or wherever you choose to listen to your favourite podcasts I'm
30:49
Kent Hill and until next time you've been listening to us on Cinema.
30:54
Yugen.